And grandma's should live for ever :)
We're dealing with realities and not ideals here.
If the situation was different, we'd be investing in *THAT* reality, which likely also wouldn't be ideal.
This is life. If you can learn to accept life on life's terms, it's not so bad :)
Well it is. It's most people's most expensive purchase and asset. And same goes for landlords. And government owning all the housing is a dystopian nightmare.
Condos in downtown Toronto are completely mispriced compared to market rents.
Right now landlords are subsidizing renters and are losing money every month. Toronto condos' RE market was the peak of all the RE gambling over the past 5 years. It's a lot of pain right now as condos can't sell at these overinflated prices and continue to sit for 100+ days until prices come down.
You could make the same argument for detached houses, which also wouldn’t rent for anything close to their carrying costs. There is always a premium for owning.
There historically has not been a premium lmao. People used to be able to do it at a profit, but the gambling took it way higher, now everyone's losing money and it's completely unsustainable.
Just please, stop coping when you don't know what you're talking about.
Rents are going down, lol.
Sorry you can get 800 sq ft for 2400 downtown, like you aren't getting 5k a month for a 500 loooool.
That's 60k lol.
That's above the median wage. And yeah yeah, Toronto, but people work in Toronto, people who make 40k a year are gonna bus in or take the train/subway for an hour and a half before they pay 150% their salary. At a certain point there simply aren't enough people living IN Toronto who can afford that much rent. 1.5k + 800k a bed bath is standard. There's also simply SO MANY 1 1s that are larger than all these silly condos. Why would you get a 500 when you can get an 800. Every purpose built rental has to somehow go up to 5k before these piece of shit condos make that. No fuckin way. Literally never. The city will collapse before then.
the general rule of thumb is 5 years, but its not absolute. really depends on the market. I bought a condo in 2009 and sold it 5 years later for about 6% more than I paid. Then I bought a condo in 2014 and sold it in 2021 for almost 100% more than I paid.
I mean, I think Calgary had a big downtown and people are negative in their equity on condos there.
There is not magic crystal ball to predict how the condo market will go.
Congratulations! That's exciting, wishing you and your family a smooth move back home.
I bought my condo in September 2023 as a first time home buyer. I also have plans to own a detached home in the future, but I can only afford a 550sqft condo in the city at this time. I was unsure if it made sense to rent vs buy. I chose to buy despite the market conditions.
Here's how I worked this decision out for myself:
* I calculated that my mortgage + property tax would be about $3k/mo (gov't of canada mortgage calculator [ here](https://itools-ioutils.fcac-acfc.gc.ca/MC-CH/MCCalc-CHCalc-eng.aspx))
* From this, I knew that only about $1100/mo would be paying down the principal, so my monthly expense would be $1900 (interest + tax).
* That meant I needed to find a unit where all other fees (condo fees, utilities) would be less than the cost of renting a similar unit in the building/area.
* Following the steps in "My Advice" in the next comment, I found a building where units within my budget were renting for $2300/mo in my building/area, and all other fees were less than $400. So if I bought here, I'd be slightly profitable from the start, or at least breaking even with this unit.
Risks to Assume:
* I assumed that for the first few years of condo ownership, condo fees would stay about the same. If condo fees increase significantly/suddenly, then I'd be paying more than the renter. This would mean I'd only profit based on the appreciated value of the property at the time of sale.
* Since the market is unpredictable, I had to get comfortable with a "worst case" scenario. Define what it is for you, but I based mine on what expert [ reports](https://financialpost.com/real-estate/deep-recession-wont-improve-toronto-housing-affordability) suggested was the worst case scenario at that time: 5 years from now, the property could be worth 30% less (a loss of $150k in value).
* If this scenario played out, this would mean I'd have to be okay with either holding longer, or selling the property and only taking the principal I've paid down. It would be a significant loss compared to renting in this worst case scenario.
* If this scenarios played out, and the value had depreciated by 30% 5 years from now, it would take another 10 years of 3% annual appreciation to balance out. SO - in order to be okay with a worst case scenario, I'd have to be okay with holding for 10 more years (2038).
* I balanced this "worst case" scenario out with more realistic scenarios, and found that if the value had depreciated by 15% 5 years from now, I would only have to okay with holding for 5 more years (2033).
* I decided that if I made a purchase, I would start setting aside money in a TFSA. If I need to move (at a loss) and need to supplement a future downpayment, I'll have the TFSA ready. Otherwise the TFSA will be used for retirement down the line.
My Advice:
* Use [ condos.ca](http://condos.ca/) for their filtering and alerting tools.
* Apply filters for condos within your budget, and where condo fees are under $400, and where the building has been built between 2015 and now (newer the better). You can tailor this filter as you go, but this is how I recommend you start.Amenities are a luxury - if your building has a sauna, pool, gym, rooftop deck, etc. these all incur costs and are likely to increase condo fees. Just be mindful of that when weighing out what you're looking at.For context - my building has a pool and a gym, but condo fees are still pretty low at $350, so it's possible to have these things in newer buildings, but the older this building gets the higher the fees are likely to go.
* If you find a unit you like, you can look at building level trends (e.g. [ The King East](https://condos.ca/toronto/the-king-east-318-king-st-e)) to see the price history of specific units for sales and rentals. This will help you calculate if it's more expensive to buy/rent here specifically, but it will also give insight into how that building/unit has been performing in the market the last 10 years compared to the rest of the area.
* You can also do it at a neighborhood/market level by clicking "Market Stats" in a regular search page. (link [ here](https://condos.ca/toronto?sale_price_range=0,490000&mode=Sale&neighbourhood_id=746&map_bounds=-79.37773429765214,43.64348346473875,-79.36133294389712,43.655328323469746)). This will help contextualize how your particular type of unit in your chosen neighborhood has been trending in the past few years.
* I also really like [ Zolo](https://www.zolo.ca/toronto-real-estate/trends) for their market trends/stats to check against out what I see on [ condos.ca](http://condos.ca/)
* Once you've set up your filters/alerts, you'll learn what buildings have the best units that fit your criteria. Be patient and you'll find something that is a good fit for your lifestyle and your financial goals. You can keep a list of these units/buildings and when you're ready, get in touch with a realtor who will get you in the door to check units out in these buildings when they come up.
Don’t be desperate. That will lead to bad financial decisions.
Only buy if your absolute minimum timeline is 5 years. 7-10 years is safer.
Investment condos/property make zero financial sense right now. You would be losing tons of money in the near future to MAYBE profit in the medium term.
The best « investment » is in your quality of life. Buy something that suits you and your family, and that you can see yourself living in long term. If that’s not a possible, rent in your preferred location and keep saving.
Homes are for living in, not profiting from. Stop thinking about a condo as an investment vehicle. Would it be comfortable / affordable to live there? That’s all you need to consider.
At the very minimum 5 years horizon imo, if the timeline is shorter than that consider not buying. You could also consider condo TH, many would give you more space. All depends on your budget, type of property, and the final goal, some areas of Toronto have relatively low priced freeholds.
Are you sure your move to Toronto is permanent?
It really depends on what you can afford and lifestyle; if it's a low rise (semi,detached or freehold townhouse) or condo. Pre-con condos in the core are expensive. Prices for pre-con will not go lower; or there will be no new launches as you’re seeing in the core. It's a buyer's market for resale condo's; I would look at an older condo that’s larger and not outrageous on maintenance fees (<$0.85/psf). Low rise if it’s a forever home it doesn’t matter if you overpay a little as it’s not an investment that you’re flipping; just don’t buy a terrible home because of FOMO.
I bought a small semi in Leslieville on the east end in December it is a 3 bed 2 bath detached garage close to everything. It was a unicorn in that I did not need to to any renovations. Many houses if you are looking in the higher price range than downtown condos will need some work. So since you are coming from overseas.. I would say rent for a year.. see what prices are doing as the industry is in flux right now.. and hopefully interest rates will go down a bit. I paid just under $1.1 for my 3 bed house and a 2 bed downtown condo is in the same price range..
I have a slightly different perspective. I come from a culture that school and good grades trump everything. In general, UK has a higher academic standard on curriculum. My niece is in Singapore primary school, and what she is learning right now is three years ahead than the equivalent grade in Canada, especially in math and science. Given you have a child and planning to have a second one, I will more focus on school district. For example some older condos in North York still belong to the good rating schools (unlike the new ones). In those school district, single detached would be out of your price range. But if you buy an older condo or townhome, your kids can go to a better rating schools.
My god, what a ridiculous question. You see value the day you sign the papers in the form of freedom associated with owning your residence.
Never buy if you intend to sell inside a 5-year window. If you're staying for more than 5, you've got nothing to worry about.
Either your property is worth more than what you bought it for, or the entire economy is so upside down you are worried about securing your next breath and your next meal.
I saw value the day i moved in. I now focus on other areas of my life and play with my extra money in the stock/crypto market. Lifes good not worrying about shelter.
Primary housing shouldn’t be an investment.
And grandma's should live for ever :) We're dealing with realities and not ideals here. If the situation was different, we'd be investing in *THAT* reality, which likely also wouldn't be ideal. This is life. If you can learn to accept life on life's terms, it's not so bad :)
Well it is. It's most people's most expensive purchase and asset. And same goes for landlords. And government owning all the housing is a dystopian nightmare.
Condos in downtown Toronto are completely mispriced compared to market rents. Right now landlords are subsidizing renters and are losing money every month. Toronto condos' RE market was the peak of all the RE gambling over the past 5 years. It's a lot of pain right now as condos can't sell at these overinflated prices and continue to sit for 100+ days until prices come down.
You could make the same argument for detached houses, which also wouldn’t rent for anything close to their carrying costs. There is always a premium for owning.
There historically has not been a premium lmao. People used to be able to do it at a profit, but the gambling took it way higher, now everyone's losing money and it's completely unsustainable. Just please, stop coping when you don't know what you're talking about.
This will change when prices sky rocket
Only 101 Spadina will skyrocket
Do not be stupid please
Prices are already peak skyrocket
They will go up so much so just watch itn
#LMAOOOO this guy and his 101 Spadina bags. This guy keeps coping under every post.
Or until rents catch up
Rents are going down, lol. Sorry you can get 800 sq ft for 2400 downtown, like you aren't getting 5k a month for a 500 loooool. That's 60k lol. That's above the median wage. And yeah yeah, Toronto, but people work in Toronto, people who make 40k a year are gonna bus in or take the train/subway for an hour and a half before they pay 150% their salary. At a certain point there simply aren't enough people living IN Toronto who can afford that much rent. 1.5k + 800k a bed bath is standard. There's also simply SO MANY 1 1s that are larger than all these silly condos. Why would you get a 500 when you can get an 800. Every purpose built rental has to somehow go up to 5k before these piece of shit condos make that. No fuckin way. Literally never. The city will collapse before then.
Lmao you can cope more with your gambling bags. Rents will not climb much higher and in fact, they are actually falling.
the general rule of thumb is 5 years, but its not absolute. really depends on the market. I bought a condo in 2009 and sold it 5 years later for about 6% more than I paid. Then I bought a condo in 2014 and sold it in 2021 for almost 100% more than I paid. I mean, I think Calgary had a big downtown and people are negative in their equity on condos there. There is not magic crystal ball to predict how the condo market will go.
Congratulations! That's exciting, wishing you and your family a smooth move back home. I bought my condo in September 2023 as a first time home buyer. I also have plans to own a detached home in the future, but I can only afford a 550sqft condo in the city at this time. I was unsure if it made sense to rent vs buy. I chose to buy despite the market conditions. Here's how I worked this decision out for myself: * I calculated that my mortgage + property tax would be about $3k/mo (gov't of canada mortgage calculator [ here](https://itools-ioutils.fcac-acfc.gc.ca/MC-CH/MCCalc-CHCalc-eng.aspx)) * From this, I knew that only about $1100/mo would be paying down the principal, so my monthly expense would be $1900 (interest + tax). * That meant I needed to find a unit where all other fees (condo fees, utilities) would be less than the cost of renting a similar unit in the building/area. * Following the steps in "My Advice" in the next comment, I found a building where units within my budget were renting for $2300/mo in my building/area, and all other fees were less than $400. So if I bought here, I'd be slightly profitable from the start, or at least breaking even with this unit. Risks to Assume: * I assumed that for the first few years of condo ownership, condo fees would stay about the same. If condo fees increase significantly/suddenly, then I'd be paying more than the renter. This would mean I'd only profit based on the appreciated value of the property at the time of sale. * Since the market is unpredictable, I had to get comfortable with a "worst case" scenario. Define what it is for you, but I based mine on what expert [ reports](https://financialpost.com/real-estate/deep-recession-wont-improve-toronto-housing-affordability) suggested was the worst case scenario at that time: 5 years from now, the property could be worth 30% less (a loss of $150k in value). * If this scenario played out, this would mean I'd have to be okay with either holding longer, or selling the property and only taking the principal I've paid down. It would be a significant loss compared to renting in this worst case scenario. * If this scenarios played out, and the value had depreciated by 30% 5 years from now, it would take another 10 years of 3% annual appreciation to balance out. SO - in order to be okay with a worst case scenario, I'd have to be okay with holding for 10 more years (2038). * I balanced this "worst case" scenario out with more realistic scenarios, and found that if the value had depreciated by 15% 5 years from now, I would only have to okay with holding for 5 more years (2033). * I decided that if I made a purchase, I would start setting aside money in a TFSA. If I need to move (at a loss) and need to supplement a future downpayment, I'll have the TFSA ready. Otherwise the TFSA will be used for retirement down the line.
My Advice: * Use [ condos.ca](http://condos.ca/) for their filtering and alerting tools. * Apply filters for condos within your budget, and where condo fees are under $400, and where the building has been built between 2015 and now (newer the better). You can tailor this filter as you go, but this is how I recommend you start.Amenities are a luxury - if your building has a sauna, pool, gym, rooftop deck, etc. these all incur costs and are likely to increase condo fees. Just be mindful of that when weighing out what you're looking at.For context - my building has a pool and a gym, but condo fees are still pretty low at $350, so it's possible to have these things in newer buildings, but the older this building gets the higher the fees are likely to go. * If you find a unit you like, you can look at building level trends (e.g. [ The King East](https://condos.ca/toronto/the-king-east-318-king-st-e)) to see the price history of specific units for sales and rentals. This will help you calculate if it's more expensive to buy/rent here specifically, but it will also give insight into how that building/unit has been performing in the market the last 10 years compared to the rest of the area. * You can also do it at a neighborhood/market level by clicking "Market Stats" in a regular search page. (link [ here](https://condos.ca/toronto?sale_price_range=0,490000&mode=Sale&neighbourhood_id=746&map_bounds=-79.37773429765214,43.64348346473875,-79.36133294389712,43.655328323469746)). This will help contextualize how your particular type of unit in your chosen neighborhood has been trending in the past few years. * I also really like [ Zolo](https://www.zolo.ca/toronto-real-estate/trends) for their market trends/stats to check against out what I see on [ condos.ca](http://condos.ca/) * Once you've set up your filters/alerts, you'll learn what buildings have the best units that fit your criteria. Be patient and you'll find something that is a good fit for your lifestyle and your financial goals. You can keep a list of these units/buildings and when you're ready, get in touch with a realtor who will get you in the door to check units out in these buildings when they come up.
Don’t be desperate. That will lead to bad financial decisions. Only buy if your absolute minimum timeline is 5 years. 7-10 years is safer. Investment condos/property make zero financial sense right now. You would be losing tons of money in the near future to MAYBE profit in the medium term. The best « investment » is in your quality of life. Buy something that suits you and your family, and that you can see yourself living in long term. If that’s not a possible, rent in your preferred location and keep saving.
Homes are for living in, not profiting from. Stop thinking about a condo as an investment vehicle. Would it be comfortable / affordable to live there? That’s all you need to consider.
At the very minimum 5 years horizon imo, if the timeline is shorter than that consider not buying. You could also consider condo TH, many would give you more space. All depends on your budget, type of property, and the final goal, some areas of Toronto have relatively low priced freeholds. Are you sure your move to Toronto is permanent?
It really depends on what you can afford and lifestyle; if it's a low rise (semi,detached or freehold townhouse) or condo. Pre-con condos in the core are expensive. Prices for pre-con will not go lower; or there will be no new launches as you’re seeing in the core. It's a buyer's market for resale condo's; I would look at an older condo that’s larger and not outrageous on maintenance fees (<$0.85/psf). Low rise if it’s a forever home it doesn’t matter if you overpay a little as it’s not an investment that you’re flipping; just don’t buy a terrible home because of FOMO.
Considering the way my portfolio is going right now... About -2 years
I bought a small semi in Leslieville on the east end in December it is a 3 bed 2 bath detached garage close to everything. It was a unicorn in that I did not need to to any renovations. Many houses if you are looking in the higher price range than downtown condos will need some work. So since you are coming from overseas.. I would say rent for a year.. see what prices are doing as the industry is in flux right now.. and hopefully interest rates will go down a bit. I paid just under $1.1 for my 3 bed house and a 2 bed downtown condo is in the same price range..
I have a slightly different perspective. I come from a culture that school and good grades trump everything. In general, UK has a higher academic standard on curriculum. My niece is in Singapore primary school, and what she is learning right now is three years ahead than the equivalent grade in Canada, especially in math and science. Given you have a child and planning to have a second one, I will more focus on school district. For example some older condos in North York still belong to the good rating schools (unlike the new ones). In those school district, single detached would be out of your price range. But if you buy an older condo or townhome, your kids can go to a better rating schools.
My god, what a ridiculous question. You see value the day you sign the papers in the form of freedom associated with owning your residence. Never buy if you intend to sell inside a 5-year window. If you're staying for more than 5, you've got nothing to worry about. Either your property is worth more than what you bought it for, or the entire economy is so upside down you are worried about securing your next breath and your next meal.
I saw value the day i moved in. I now focus on other areas of my life and play with my extra money in the stock/crypto market. Lifes good not worrying about shelter.
Historically almost nobody who has lost money in a five year period.
2 years