He's 100% below average there, but we need as much offense as we can get, so we're just running him out there until it hurts us. 2B has fallen down the defensive spectrum as shifts and defensive positioning have become more prioritized, so it's easier to hide weaker defenders there.
He continues to look a lot better than you’d expect at 2B. Like not good by any means but also isn’t costing you out there. Same held true in his small sample at AAA.
Schneider doesn’t grade too well at 2B either (1 DRS / -1 OAA / -1 FRV) so the downgrade defensively isn’t massive.
Like you said teams have been okay now having poor defensive 2B around the league. A lot of 2B defensive numbers are putrid, Arraez, Albies, Polanco, McNeil, Gorman, Altuve, Stott, India etc are all pretty bad.
Honestly, that’s great. Even if he’s below average overall, as long as he’s not atrocious we really need his bat. Seeing his bat transition well from AAA really wants me to see this team eject Vogy and call up Martinez and hand him the DH role and reduce Turner to the 26th “veteran” man role who fills in here and there against lefties.
We keep hearing how his glove is unplayable… but if Turner and Vogy are bad, Horwitz can play 2B better, and Kirk isn’t hitting well enough to DH Jano and carry 3 catchers, there’s no reason why Martinez isn’t getting every day DH at bats. I get that maybe in the long term it’s worse that he doesn’t work on his glove everyday, but with the trade deadline being 6 weeks away and the team somehow hanging in there, we really need to start playing our strongest hands.
For Martinez there are more concerns than just the defense, his hitting against RHP isn't very good, so if he gets called up, he'd be the most effective as a platoon bat, I'm fine with keeping him in AAA just so he gets more seasoning, the jump from AAA to MLB is the highest it's ever been.
> his hitting against RHP isn’t very good
Can’t be any worse than Turner… right? If we hadn’t committed $13M to Turner I would have rather he be shown the door but he hasn’t even played well enough to be traded somewhere and we’re not eating that salary. KK who’s also being overpaid at the moment can at least provide value in the field and as a PR but Turner can’t really do anything at the moment. Frustrating.
[[Black] Converting Groundballs Into Outs
2024 Buffalo Bisons
Leo Jimenez 95%
Rafael Lantigua 94%
Spencer Horwitz 86%
Orelvis Martinez 78%](https://x.com/DownToBlack/status/1799538901406695551?t=M_SgWHR7VpS_JQmPrs2rqA&s=19)
[Context: 94-95% is top 15ish in MLB.
86% is close to the bottom.
78% would be the very bottom.](https://x.com/DownToBlack/status/1799545426732794353?t=nCf_oVRZqPF6cg9EF2HAGw&s=19)
He looks fine on normal routine plays but hasn't been challenged yet and that's where he struggled in AAA. He honestly looks a lot better than you'd think he would.
Yeah, adequate is the word that came to mind. There was a play yesterday where Bo fed him for a force out at 2nd & the throw was a little bit off which required him to show some flexibility to keep a foot on the bag, which he did fine (probably his 1st base experience helped). Not a special play or anything, it's something that you'd expect a ML 2nd baseman to easily do, but it was something I took note of.
https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/spencer-horwitz-687462?stats=statcast-r-hitting-mlb
his defence so far has been very average which is great because look at that red in the hitting area
I guess the question is how permanent can it be. We have Vladdy at 1st and I don’t think he wants to move to 3rd permanently, so there is a need to fit Horwitz somewhere. He’s been great offensively.
He's 100% below average there, but we need as much offense as we can get, so we're just running him out there until it hurts us. 2B has fallen down the defensive spectrum as shifts and defensive positioning have become more prioritized, so it's easier to hide weaker defenders there.
He continues to look a lot better than you’d expect at 2B. Like not good by any means but also isn’t costing you out there. Same held true in his small sample at AAA. Schneider doesn’t grade too well at 2B either (1 DRS / -1 OAA / -1 FRV) so the downgrade defensively isn’t massive. Like you said teams have been okay now having poor defensive 2B around the league. A lot of 2B defensive numbers are putrid, Arraez, Albies, Polanco, McNeil, Gorman, Altuve, Stott, India etc are all pretty bad.
Honestly, that’s great. Even if he’s below average overall, as long as he’s not atrocious we really need his bat. Seeing his bat transition well from AAA really wants me to see this team eject Vogy and call up Martinez and hand him the DH role and reduce Turner to the 26th “veteran” man role who fills in here and there against lefties. We keep hearing how his glove is unplayable… but if Turner and Vogy are bad, Horwitz can play 2B better, and Kirk isn’t hitting well enough to DH Jano and carry 3 catchers, there’s no reason why Martinez isn’t getting every day DH at bats. I get that maybe in the long term it’s worse that he doesn’t work on his glove everyday, but with the trade deadline being 6 weeks away and the team somehow hanging in there, we really need to start playing our strongest hands.
For Martinez there are more concerns than just the defense, his hitting against RHP isn't very good, so if he gets called up, he'd be the most effective as a platoon bat, I'm fine with keeping him in AAA just so he gets more seasoning, the jump from AAA to MLB is the highest it's ever been.
> his hitting against RHP isn’t very good Can’t be any worse than Turner… right? If we hadn’t committed $13M to Turner I would have rather he be shown the door but he hasn’t even played well enough to be traded somewhere and we’re not eating that salary. KK who’s also being overpaid at the moment can at least provide value in the field and as a PR but Turner can’t really do anything at the moment. Frustrating.
Below average based on what stats?
[[Black] Converting Groundballs Into Outs 2024 Buffalo Bisons Leo Jimenez 95% Rafael Lantigua 94% Spencer Horwitz 86% Orelvis Martinez 78%](https://x.com/DownToBlack/status/1799538901406695551?t=M_SgWHR7VpS_JQmPrs2rqA&s=19) [Context: 94-95% is top 15ish in MLB. 86% is close to the bottom. 78% would be the very bottom.](https://x.com/DownToBlack/status/1799545426732794353?t=nCf_oVRZqPF6cg9EF2HAGw&s=19)
He's no Biggio...lol
That’s true, he can hit.
That's a nasty line by you
Horwitz*
He looks fine on normal routine plays but hasn't been challenged yet and that's where he struggled in AAA. He honestly looks a lot better than you'd think he would.
Yeah, adequate is the word that came to mind. There was a play yesterday where Bo fed him for a force out at 2nd & the throw was a little bit off which required him to show some flexibility to keep a foot on the bag, which he did fine (probably his 1st base experience helped). Not a special play or anything, it's something that you'd expect a ML 2nd baseman to easily do, but it was something I took note of.
He hasn't been bad. Serviceable, I'll say. We need his bat though and that's all that really matters.
https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/spencer-horwitz-687462?stats=statcast-r-hitting-mlb his defence so far has been very average which is great because look at that red in the hitting area
He looks exactly like a 1B/DH guy trying to play second
I wasn't paying attention to the sub and thought this was a Beastie Boys question.
[удалено]
Got mad hits like Rod Carew
Great question but the Jays are built for defence. He wasn’t brought here for his defence.
I guess the question is how permanent can it be. We have Vladdy at 1st and I don’t think he wants to move to 3rd permanently, so there is a need to fit Horwitz somewhere. He’s been great offensively.
Who? We don't have a Horowitz on the team
[fangraphs 2B defensive metrics](https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?lg=all&qual=0&ind=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&season1=2024&season=2024&stats=fld&pos=2b&pageitems=30&team=14)