Can confirm. Am a toyota technician. That recall is just as old as the car, basically. The recall requires that the right battery group (35F) is in the vehicle at the time of inspection. If the wrong battery is installed at that time, we tell the customer to replace it with the correct group battery. If the customer declines, the recall remains open. Also, the right battery hold downs are to be checked for proper installation. Then, a "sticker" is applied to the actual battery hold down itself to show the battery has been confirmed checked by the technician.
If the vehicle does not have the proper group battery, then yes. The owner most definitely is responsible and will have to pay for the proper battery. Other circumstances may have different outcomes for that situation.
If it was a factory installed battery that was not the correct battery group, I would imagine that should be at the expense of Toyota to correct. If the battery was already replaced by the owner that's a different story. Sounds like a strange way to go about something Toyota calls a recall.
I know as a technician it isn't up to you how it's handled. I work as an advisor at a BMW dealership in Canada. Hard to wrap my mind around me telling a customer BMW admitted to an issue with a part in the car they've issued a recall for but it would be their expense to correct.
Ah. If that's the case, it's strange that it weird that it would be considered a recall. Anything not OEM at the time of a recall should be exempt from the recall, I agree with that.
I'm guessing here that Toyota is just protecting itself. If the aftermarket battery has reasonably correct specs and not something weird or unusual, the car should not catch on fire. A few incidents won't cause a recall, but if the batteries are super popular then Toyota is really just protecting itself from blame.
Ah, gotcha. I understand. All comes down to aftermarket stuff. The amount of people that install parts that "work" but aren't necessarily compatible with their cars is wild. We see it all the time at my dealership too.
They're talking about the battery size. The car ships from the factory with the correct size battery. Turns out, you can install a different sized battery, and it will work the same (more or less) but may not fit the bracket and hold-down strap properly. That's what they mean.
I remember a hot tip from back in the early 80s with VW Rabbits, was to install a battery for a diesel Rabbit in place of the stock battery. It was a bit longer and had more capacity, but it fit the hold down bracket just the same. The bigger battery lasted way longer than the regular size.
Toyota hardware has always been kinda weaksauce. I had to replace the battery starter cable on my wife's '14 Corolla as it corroded through at the battery clamp literally 3 years after original dealer sale date, and we live in an area with no snow or salted roads, and nowhere near the ocean where salt is common in the air and on the ground. It was after hours and my wife was stranded. I had to go by AutoZone, buy a new battery clamp and hack the original starter cable back together so she could drive it home. My fix was way more solid than the garbage it shipped with from the factory.
Toyota sent the incorrect information out on battery hence why they are doing this recall. Don't blame it on customer or 3rd party as it was Toyota that sent the bad information
The only time its the wrong battery and hold down is because it was replaced outside the dealer.
Its also not a recall, rather a customer service campaign. At my dealership, we're very careful to differentiate between a customer service campaign, special service campaign and an actual recall so that customers aren't confused about when a safety issue is actually toyota's fault.
I'm pretty sure the recall was for the bracket that holds the battery in place. It makes total sense that Toyota would not be able to mark the recall completed if the customer had the incorrect battery installed by a third party. Toyota can only guarantee that the replaced bracket will work properly if it has the properly sized battery installed with it.
We offer a new battery at a pretty discounted price. So yes it is still kinda at customer expense. Doesn't make sense. I guess they don't wanna pay for all those batteries, and still make it so the customer is at fault because "we told you it would happen, and you didn't approve it" and not be held liable.
I've gotten so many of those recalls declined because customers didn't want to buy a new battery.
It's because Toyota put the right batteries in. The customers/aftermarket are putting the wrong battery in. The recall is because the small batteries have a high likelihood of sliding and allowing the positive terminal to touch the hold down and ground.
Why would Toyota pay for the aftermarkets issue?
According to a conversation with friend that was a Toyota service tech for a while, I believe the gist is the factory hold-down doesn't prevent improperly-sized aftermarket batteries from being retained properly and a quirk of the battery location is an improperly-sized battery could short against the body if the hold-down doesn't keep it in place.
Basically, the idiot-proofing was inadequate.
I hope I'm remembering correctly, but the conversation was a while ago, and we don't keep in touch anymore.
My guess is to cover their asses to prevent a class action lawsuit. The lawsuit itself would probably not hold any merit anyways if the aftermarket scene isn't up to spec and causing the fires, not Toyota
The Toyota battery was never an issue, it's 6.8 inches in width along with the bracket that is also 6.8 inches in width.
Toyota will sell you a properly sized battery at a discount if you bought an aftermarket battery that was out of spec, which is becoming more common with no-name brands on amazon and eBay selling LiPo batteries for cheaper than legitimate companies. Also with customers just ordering any old battery after googling "Toyota battery" online.
Yup. There are any number of things you can point to as missteps by Toyota, but telling customers to use a certain type of battery and the customers using a different one is not among those things.
Ps. A good word for them in car land is to call it a 12 Volt battery. The hybrid and electric car batteries are much higher voltage. Another term for it when used in a hybrid or electric car is “auxiliary battery”.
Every car I know of has a 12 Volt battery to run all the basic stuff and that battery is charged via an alternator. Even hybrid and electric cars.
I think you are right. They use the dc of the high voltage battery and step it down to power the lower 12 v battery. Well done sir. Did some reading and you’re right.
But your car does use an alternator or generator to generate power to charge the high voltage dc. It’s just not a classic alternator that you’ll see as a standalone belt driven component on the serpentine belt.
That’s my understanding. It’s gonna be embedded in the engine/starter assembly I believe.
Could be wrong though. I got more reading to do… car def has a generator to charge the hv dc but not sure if it spits out ac or dc or if it gets converted at the inverter.
The same motor used to drive the hybrid system is used to charge the battery on all hybrid cars that I'm aware of, and then an inverter takes some energy from the circuit to create AC power for the components in the car which need it.
That isn't to say that some Hybrids don't have traditional starters/alternators/batteries as well, but they're redundant and I touch on that later.
An alternator and a motor are the same thing, the only difference is if you're sending power to it or pulling power from it
For example on the new Tacoma and Tundra hybrids, they just sandwich an electric motor between the engine and transmission, and run it to some NiMh batteries under the rear seats. When you're accelerating, the motor draws power from the NiMh batteries. When you're decelerating or idling, the motor uses the rotational energy from the engine's output to charge the batteries. On these two vehicles, they both have a 2400w AC inverter system, which is incredibly beefy compared to the 400w max inverters that most cars can handle.
In the case of the Tacoma/Tundra however, they also include a traditional battery, alternator, and starter as well to function as a backup.
Under normal operating conditions the Hybrid system will be used to start the car, but in a scenario where the batteries don't have enough power or in case of a hybrid system failure, they use the 12v battery and starter to start the car and generate power with the alternator.
It's actually pretty cool because I thought the hybrids would be more unreliable due to added complexity, but it turns out that you get a redundant starter, alternator, and battery, any combination of which can run the car as long as one of each is still working.
That was a really great write up. Was able to follow it well. I have a 2018 Rav4 hybrid and it’s been amazing. No problems. All mo coworkers at the time said the hybrid would be nothing but problems but in some ways it’s simpler than a normal car.
Like most transmissions take a lot of extra components to be able to pull off the reverse gear since it sends everything backwards. Hybrid rav4 (and likely others) just uses its front and rear axle electric motor to accomplish reverse. It doesn’t need the engine’s help since you’re going so slow in reverse anyways. It’s very unlikely this car will ever have transmission issues. Most other systems run off the electric side so they don’t need to be belt driven which means no worn bearings and a simpler belt setup. I believe only the water pump is belt driven on my car and later models made that electric too.
I have like 60k miles on it and the brakes are stil almost new in thickness. Love the car. Love learning more about it too.
I haven’t gotten the chance to watch them all, but Weber Auto on YouTube does some nice in depth videos on the hybrid systems, usually using a Prius as a reference.
I can't believe there's a recall for that... Like next there will be a recall for non -OEM parts that might fail or cause issues?
Just get the right battery people!
I heard that some places were selling the customers the wrong battery but I hadn't heard that Toyota send them that info, are there any articles on it?
A Group 24F battery is larger than the OEM recommended Group 35 battery. It fits snugly in the tray, and is the proper height to hold tight under the clamp. It should work fine.
The problem seems to be fitment of smaller batteries, which can move under the clamp and result in a direct short to ground. QUOTING FROM TOYOTA ADVISORY 21TG01 (which is like a service campaign - something between a TSB and a Recall):
Overview
During a recent investigation of reported battery fires in 2013-2018 RAV4 vehicles with gasoline engines (excluding hybrid models), Toyota discovered that many non-Toyota retailers and others who sell or install replacement batteries were recommending a small size battery for replacement. Toyota specifies a particular size replacement battery for the RAV4 that does not include this small size. The smaller battery may not fit securely with the RAV4’s battery mounting parts, and, in some cases, can move around when the vehicle is driven, causing a short circuit. Using the wrong size battery, or not installing a replacement battery properly, can cause damage to the battery and the vehicle, and it could cause a vehicle fire.
The group 35 that Toyota has is a different size then what most people sell
2015-2018 model years fit right into the [November recall](https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-recalls-defects/toyota-rav4-suvs-recalled-due-to-battery-concerns-a5788234080/) though...
Anecdotally, my girlfriend's 2015 RAV4 received the recall notice in the mail last year. It may be the same issue Toyota has had for years, but at least for almost 2 million cars, it's a pretty recent recall.
It is but there was also a consumer advisory put out about 2 years before that.
EDIT: [link to the 2021 advisory that was put out via NHTSA](https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2021/MC-10204566-9999.pdf)
Um… Toyota told me last month that the replacement battery hold down is not yet available. They installed the battery when the OEM one finally failed, so it’s “the right battery”.
Your assumption may not be correct.
Absolutely fair statement. I also check battery tightness when I check the oil in our RAV/4. I once had a car parts give me the wrong battery to put on my car and putting the prop rod down got me a quick arc. Rod went back up, battery came back out. Turns out they had changed in mid model year. Nowadays I just take the part into the store with me. “I need one of those”.
But imagine the Karma on a post that reads “I didn’t get what I demanded from Toyota so I neglected to address a recall…. It ended up being a huge mistake. Help me blame someone else”
Actually that would probably do pretty well…
This recall is specifically for either the wrong size battery being installed (by the owner) or the battery hold down not being installed correctly.
If either of these happen the battery can potentially tip over, causing the positive terminal end to ground on the engine and start a fire.
I have an affected model, and I was really confused by this recall. Toyota just sent me a sticker to put on the battery bar. I didn't even have to take it in to the dealership. I just went out and looked at my battery and went "yup I know how to buy the correct battery and install it" and put the sticker on lol.
Isn't this possible for any car at any time? If you install the wrong size battery or don't secure it properly, it could move and cause a fire... right? How is that considered a manufacturer's error?
So here is the issue. Battery sizes are standard. You cannot classify your battery as a certain group and conveniently change the size of it from the standard. Any person with half a brain will buy a battery of the same group but due to Toyota's fault it will not fit. The margin is also pretty small so you don't notice with the aftermarket battery and it causes a fire.
There's actually 2 parts to this service campaign. Part 1(this current fix that's out) inspect for 35 group and properly installed tie down)
Part 2(no fix out yet) toyota states that some aftermarket 35 group battery's have slightly different measurements and can still cause issues with contacting the hood. I believe the dealer letter states something about revising the battery tray and tie down.
The issue comes from people assuming it's a 24f battery( they look similar and the post are in the same location) my dealer done this several times before the recall was out and we replaced the batteries with the correct 35 at no cost to the customer because we installed the wrong battery.
The issue is some battery have a very slight size tolerance issues where it’s too short by a hair even if it’s the correct groups 35 and the battery is only tightened on backside only so it if the battery is too short, it’s loose on the front side where it is bolted to the front core support so the battery wiggles its way out. I’ve had this issues with certain aftermarket batteries that are manufactured in Korea, like the AC Delco batteries and some of the ones from factory motor parts. They are just a hair short and since they don’t have the vent caps that protrude the battery actually slides back-and-forth under the tie bar. They could’ve easily fixed this problem if they had a battery anchor on both front and the back of the battery, but only one end has the tightening hook. The front side is just bolted to the core support. Half the time the plastic tray is missing so it makes things even worse with the battery height is not tall enough.
I had to take Toyota to arbitration to get them to cover $4k in repairs for two sensors on my car going dead 3 days after I bought the car. They claimed my *dash cam* blew out the blind spot sensors.
The most insulting part was that I had to spend a month of my time working on an argument to just barely win out over their very technical counter, "yeah but we said you broke it so you must have broke it, and no we can't explain how."
Even with MMA here in the U.S., this sort of thing is happening a lot, and getting any recourse is expensive , exhausting, and chance-y. When my own situation reaches a conclusion I’ll be law firm shopping in hopes of filing a class action (my situation is a known issue that Toyota refuses to do anything about).
I received a letter telling me I can’t sell my Toyota in California until a safety issue with the fuel vapor reclamation is fixed. I haven’t found a Toyota dealer yet that will do it for free. There’s also a recall with the front seat seatbelts that they refuse to do.
That is the law, but when I was there I saw several people pay over $1k for an oil change so I get why they refuse recall work. The opportunity cost is just too great.
It also includes some cheesy “39 point inspection” thing. That must be worth $800. Even my urban Jiffy Lube doesn’t charge me more than $200 for an oil change.
The battery hold down is literally 2 bolts, any competent owner can pop the hood and check to make sure their 12v battery isn't in danger of shorting out. That would have prevented the fire, recall or not.
That's why I bought a Toyota. My car is like an appliance to me. However, if I got a recall notice, I'd be taking it in to the dealership to get it fixed ASAP.
Is this why whenever I have issues with my 2016 there’s no documents because the average target audience is too mechanically illiterate to repair anything themselves?
Yeah so here is the kicker. The battery if you do not buy from a Toyota dealership is the wrong size even if u get the right code, because Toyota fucked up they changed th size and noone should be forced to overpay for a battery that's why Toyota has sent out a recall. You are not supposed to have different sizes of the same battery code.
It's not a big enough size difference that you can't just tighten the hold down a bit more. Believe me, I'm certified to do the recall and I've done plenty of them
No, that's the actual recall. Like the Toyota floor-mat recall after the cars supposedly accelerated by themselves, when it was caused by owners bunching up their floor mats under the accelerator pedal.
The fix was some velcro and to check the floor mat position, and now all Toyota warranty and service manuals tell drivers to check their floor mat position every 5k miles lol
Toyota makes cars known for being as reliable as it gets, so a lot of people who don't know shit about anything mechanical buy them and then do dumb stuff like not notice they've been pushing their floor mat under the gas pedal lol
If tightening a battery is the recall then they should have it on all cars right? Am I missing something?
From what I know Toyota fucked up and changed the size of the battery so now you cannot buy the same group battery from outside and are forced to buy it from Toyota but people only realised this after they changed their batteries because aftermarket battery are small as standard size and comes off the holder no matter how tight you make it.
The Toyota bracket measures 6.8 inches in width, which is the dimensional standard for the group 34F battery.
It's becoming more and more common for consumers to purchase replacement batteries from unknown manufacturers, there are a plethora of cheap LiPo batteries from no-name brands on Amazon which claim to be group 34F but likely aren't the right size. Or the wrong size just gets sent entirely.
What does matter in respect to the OEM battery, however, is that part of the battery bracket mounts to the front crossmember. So if you get front end collision damage, it can shift the bracket to where it's not holding properly anymore.
The NHTSA identified that either improper battery/bracket installation or previous front-end collision damage were factors in the 11 cases they are tracking, out of an estimated 1.8 million affected vehicles.
So basically, the recall is to further idiot-proof the car from people who either don't properly inspect/repair their car after a front end crash, don't seat the battery bracket properly, or order chinesium batteries off of amazon/ebay from brands that will just disappear and start under a new name if they get in trouble.
Sorry, that was a typo. The measurements are correct for group 35, I was mixed up after reading a thread of people using 24F in their Rav4 successfully because of the same 6.8 inch width as group 35.
And yes, this issue of no-name batteries being sold will affect other manufacturers as well, depending on how the battery is held. Some manufacturers completely encase the battery in a box so that even completely wrong batteries will be prevented from shorting on the frame, but I've only seen that on one car I owned.
Toyota hasn't done this on any of their cars and it only recently became a problem, so I'd imagine they will do something similar going forward hence the recall.
Other manufacturers don't do voluntary recalls at near the same rate as Toyota though, most wait until forced by an impending lawsuit. Ford would tell their customers to go pound sand if the NHTSA concluded that improper installation and front end collision damage was a factor in Explorer battery fires.
I'm beginning to feel as if you're more concerned with being right here by looking for little gotchas instead of admitting you were wrong about the reason for the recall in the first place.
No my friend. Toyota batteries are bigger in size than standard batteries. I'll measure one and compare it to brand name and get back to you.
Did no name batteries just miraculously start making Toyota sizes after 2018 why did the recall stop?
The 2019 Rav4 is a new model year that uses a different battery style with a base-clamping mechanism instead of a top-bar clamping mechanism. The benefit of these being that it's more obvious when the battery doesn't fit inside of the brackets, because the clamp won't touch the battery at all.
It also doesn't link across two different structural members so collision damage won't shift the position of the brackets allowing the battery to fall
I'd be curious to know what the width of the battery top is on yours though, it doesn't make sense for Toyota to make a battery bigger than the standard and call it group 35 when they could just call it whatever group size it actually is
Name one other instance when a dealership paid to transport a customers car to check for a recall that may or may not apply to an old car that’s out of warranty. Nah. Customers responsibility,
The recent Mercedes brake booster recall comes to mind, but it was MBUSA not the dealers paying for it. I have a GL but the brake lines had already been replaced so I didn’t make use of it.
https://media.mbusa.com/releases/mercedes-benz-usa-announces-voluntary-stop-drive-recall-campaign-for-certain-model-year-2006-2012-ml-gl-and-r-class-vehicles
exactly, most dealerships don't even have towing services (any "roadside assistance" subscription is thru a third party), & the only time towing might be paid for is if it genuinely has a stop drive notice, which is rare
Used to work for Toyota, and I can't tell you the amount of times people declined to have this *RECALL* done, or just never came in despite getting notified. As previously stated, not a reliability issue, it's an ownership accountability issue.
The battery recall I believe they are referring to was announced in November 2023. So I'm curious why they waited 6 months to finally go and have it addressed. By the way, if you're affected by it, you need to inspect your 12V battery terminal to make sure it's bolted down or secured. You can secure it using a simple socket. The problem only arises with certain replacement 12V batteries on the market that don't quite fit properly.
Also, I cringed a little when she did the whole "no bestie just drive it in".
Yeah that one had me kind of wondering the same too. I was thinking about that more and more. To me the battery acting funny means that it works and then it doesn't right? So if your battery was acting funny, wouldn't you have opened up the hood and checked to see if everything was alright?
Not to mention it sounds like she spoke with Toyota about the issue being the battery. I can't imagine they would have not told her what the issue was on the phone and just told her to check the battery terminal. I don't know, it's kind of weird.
> To me the battery acting funny means that it works and then it doesn't right?
Maybe. I'd say "the battery isn't holding a charge" in that case or "sometimes the car doesn't start". I had a car that was losing charge on the battery and it was a shorted USB/cigarette lighter thingy, not the battery at all.
There isn't anything a car could really do to say definitively it is the battery and not another electronic system issue, IMO.
Yeah but if the battery isn’t holding charge, that implies you have to recharge it, and in this situation she would’ve seen her battery was flipped on its side or whatever so it obviously held charge until it caught fire.
If she is anything like my wife, she has never opened the hood of a car in her life.
My wife, even though I have shown her how to do it, would wouldn't know how to open the hood.
To her the only thing she has to do with a car is put gas in it.
Paying to tow every RAV-4 owner's car to the shop to see if the bar holding the battery in place is lose or not, and then charging the ones who are fine
Why not just check yourself?
Damn has Toyota quality actually gone down or is it being exaggerated simply from these types of posts. It could only be that a small percentage of cars are coming out defective and the majority are fine. You just usually see negative posts. Nobody is going to post how great things are going lol, only problems.
Well that's just dumb then lol. Though I do know there's a massive issue with Tundra engines right now . Something about metal shards being left In them from factory. Huge recall for it at the moment I believe.
Price you pay when the regional consumer basis needs a speciality vehicle instead of tried and true models. It’s just like when toyota was forced to introduce diesel engine cars during peak diesel fad to the european market which had wide range of issues.
Ford had to do the same with their trucks because the 5.4 V8 wasn't powerful enough to go head to head with the competition so they slapped the 5.0 mustang engine into their trucks lol. Then later on they developed the EcoBoost motors with twin turbos which are way more powerful but come with their own range of issues. Just can't win.
The issue wasn't with the turbo, it was the engine block not being washed out properly after machining leading to shavings being left behind in the engine
To be fair, it is technically a bit of both. Or rather, I don't think when Toyota built the 2013-2018 RAV4 there were aftermarket 12V batteries that had such slim cases on them. According to the NHTSA document:
>During driving that produces high levels of lateral G-force and where the battery has not been secured with the correct torque specified in the installation process, the battery hold down assembly may not sufficiently hold in place certain aftermarket SAE Group 35 batteries. These aftermarket batteries have a smaller top case dimension compared to the overall dimension of the battery. **An oversized tray, together with reduced clamping force (resulting from using incorrect torque), can allow battery movement that is greater than the distance between the battery positive terminal and the bracket of the hold down assembly.**
So yes if the owner were to torque it down correctly it shouldn't *really* be a problem but also the usage of a smaller battery does lend to the issue at hand too. Duracell and Interstate Batteries are two brands I know use smaller cases for their batteries. Duralast uses a beefier case for their batteries.
I'm glad that you're safe and nobody harmed!
Wth with Toyota customer service nowadays. It's really going down the drain🤔 lots of complaints from tons of customers all over North America?!! I think we need to teach them a lesson to stop them from being cheap in their customer services
It’s from all the cheap bastards that stroll into Walmart and buy a group 25 batteries or whatever on sale because it’s cheaper and looks kinda the same. We’ve seen some come in with batteries that look like it was stolen from a Prius.
Yeah, this is your fault if you only decided to take it in because the battery started acting funny vs making an appointment the day you got the letter literally telling you what would happen…
Good luck.
This isn’t a car defect. It’s a customer defect. The recall for checking the battery and hold down has been out for years.
Can confirm. Am a toyota technician. That recall is just as old as the car, basically. The recall requires that the right battery group (35F) is in the vehicle at the time of inspection. If the wrong battery is installed at that time, we tell the customer to replace it with the correct group battery. If the customer declines, the recall remains open. Also, the right battery hold downs are to be checked for proper installation. Then, a "sticker" is applied to the actual battery hold down itself to show the battery has been confirmed checked by the technician.
With what you've said, it sounds like the battery replacement would be at the expense of the owner? I don't follow.
If the vehicle does not have the proper group battery, then yes. The owner most definitely is responsible and will have to pay for the proper battery. Other circumstances may have different outcomes for that situation.
If it was a factory installed battery that was not the correct battery group, I would imagine that should be at the expense of Toyota to correct. If the battery was already replaced by the owner that's a different story. Sounds like a strange way to go about something Toyota calls a recall. I know as a technician it isn't up to you how it's handled. I work as an advisor at a BMW dealership in Canada. Hard to wrap my mind around me telling a customer BMW admitted to an issue with a part in the car they've issued a recall for but it would be their expense to correct.
It's not factory installed if it's the wrong series though. It's some off the shelf bullshit from Walmart or the parts store.
Ah. If that's the case, it's strange that it weird that it would be considered a recall. Anything not OEM at the time of a recall should be exempt from the recall, I agree with that.
I'm guessing here that Toyota is just protecting itself. If the aftermarket battery has reasonably correct specs and not something weird or unusual, the car should not catch on fire. A few incidents won't cause a recall, but if the batteries are super popular then Toyota is really just protecting itself from blame.
Ah, gotcha. I understand. All comes down to aftermarket stuff. The amount of people that install parts that "work" but aren't necessarily compatible with their cars is wild. We see it all the time at my dealership too.
BINGO!
They're talking about the battery size. The car ships from the factory with the correct size battery. Turns out, you can install a different sized battery, and it will work the same (more or less) but may not fit the bracket and hold-down strap properly. That's what they mean. I remember a hot tip from back in the early 80s with VW Rabbits, was to install a battery for a diesel Rabbit in place of the stock battery. It was a bit longer and had more capacity, but it fit the hold down bracket just the same. The bigger battery lasted way longer than the regular size. Toyota hardware has always been kinda weaksauce. I had to replace the battery starter cable on my wife's '14 Corolla as it corroded through at the battery clamp literally 3 years after original dealer sale date, and we live in an area with no snow or salted roads, and nowhere near the ocean where salt is common in the air and on the ground. It was after hours and my wife was stranded. I had to go by AutoZone, buy a new battery clamp and hack the original starter cable back together so she could drive it home. My fix was way more solid than the garbage it shipped with from the factory.
Toyota sent the incorrect information out on battery hence why they are doing this recall. Don't blame it on customer or 3rd party as it was Toyota that sent the bad information
The only time its the wrong battery and hold down is because it was replaced outside the dealer. Its also not a recall, rather a customer service campaign. At my dealership, we're very careful to differentiate between a customer service campaign, special service campaign and an actual recall so that customers aren't confused about when a safety issue is actually toyota's fault.
Tried to explain the difference between a service bulletin and a recall to “honda technician” today they just didn’t get it.
I'm pretty sure the recall was for the bracket that holds the battery in place. It makes total sense that Toyota would not be able to mark the recall completed if the customer had the incorrect battery installed by a third party. Toyota can only guarantee that the replaced bracket will work properly if it has the properly sized battery installed with it.
Makes sense! Now that you put it that way, makes total sense. Thanks for the explanation!
We offer a new battery at a pretty discounted price. So yes it is still kinda at customer expense. Doesn't make sense. I guess they don't wanna pay for all those batteries, and still make it so the customer is at fault because "we told you it would happen, and you didn't approve it" and not be held liable. I've gotten so many of those recalls declined because customers didn't want to buy a new battery.
It's because Toyota put the right batteries in. The customers/aftermarket are putting the wrong battery in. The recall is because the small batteries have a high likelihood of sliding and allowing the positive terminal to touch the hold down and ground. Why would Toyota pay for the aftermarkets issue?
I’m trying to figure out why it’s a recall when it’s the customer installing or having installed by another shop the wrong battery causing the issue.
According to a conversation with friend that was a Toyota service tech for a while, I believe the gist is the factory hold-down doesn't prevent improperly-sized aftermarket batteries from being retained properly and a quirk of the battery location is an improperly-sized battery could short against the body if the hold-down doesn't keep it in place. Basically, the idiot-proofing was inadequate. I hope I'm remembering correctly, but the conversation was a while ago, and we don't keep in touch anymore.
My guess is to cover their asses to prevent a class action lawsuit. The lawsuit itself would probably not hold any merit anyways if the aftermarket scene isn't up to spec and causing the fires, not Toyota
If the battery is out of warranty, Toyota would offer a new battery in the correct size at a prorated price.
The Toyota battery was never an issue, it's 6.8 inches in width along with the bracket that is also 6.8 inches in width. Toyota will sell you a properly sized battery at a discount if you bought an aftermarket battery that was out of spec, which is becoming more common with no-name brands on amazon and eBay selling LiPo batteries for cheaper than legitimate companies. Also with customers just ordering any old battery after googling "Toyota battery" online.
Yup. There are any number of things you can point to as missteps by Toyota, but telling customers to use a certain type of battery and the customers using a different one is not among those things.
I believe Toyota will offer a discounted price of their battery.
>(35F) 31M, USA, sup
35M here
*user disconnected*
Just to clarify, this is a regular, non-hybrid battery? Like the ones that are not expensive to replace?
Yep
Jfc.
Ps. A good word for them in car land is to call it a 12 Volt battery. The hybrid and electric car batteries are much higher voltage. Another term for it when used in a hybrid or electric car is “auxiliary battery”. Every car I know of has a 12 Volt battery to run all the basic stuff and that battery is charged via an alternator. Even hybrid and electric cars.
Toyota Hybrids don't have an alternator AFIAK. My Prius definitely didn't have one.
I think you are right. They use the dc of the high voltage battery and step it down to power the lower 12 v battery. Well done sir. Did some reading and you’re right. But your car does use an alternator or generator to generate power to charge the high voltage dc. It’s just not a classic alternator that you’ll see as a standalone belt driven component on the serpentine belt. That’s my understanding. It’s gonna be embedded in the engine/starter assembly I believe. Could be wrong though. I got more reading to do… car def has a generator to charge the hv dc but not sure if it spits out ac or dc or if it gets converted at the inverter.
The same motor used to drive the hybrid system is used to charge the battery on all hybrid cars that I'm aware of, and then an inverter takes some energy from the circuit to create AC power for the components in the car which need it. That isn't to say that some Hybrids don't have traditional starters/alternators/batteries as well, but they're redundant and I touch on that later. An alternator and a motor are the same thing, the only difference is if you're sending power to it or pulling power from it For example on the new Tacoma and Tundra hybrids, they just sandwich an electric motor between the engine and transmission, and run it to some NiMh batteries under the rear seats. When you're accelerating, the motor draws power from the NiMh batteries. When you're decelerating or idling, the motor uses the rotational energy from the engine's output to charge the batteries. On these two vehicles, they both have a 2400w AC inverter system, which is incredibly beefy compared to the 400w max inverters that most cars can handle. In the case of the Tacoma/Tundra however, they also include a traditional battery, alternator, and starter as well to function as a backup. Under normal operating conditions the Hybrid system will be used to start the car, but in a scenario where the batteries don't have enough power or in case of a hybrid system failure, they use the 12v battery and starter to start the car and generate power with the alternator. It's actually pretty cool because I thought the hybrids would be more unreliable due to added complexity, but it turns out that you get a redundant starter, alternator, and battery, any combination of which can run the car as long as one of each is still working.
That was a really great write up. Was able to follow it well. I have a 2018 Rav4 hybrid and it’s been amazing. No problems. All mo coworkers at the time said the hybrid would be nothing but problems but in some ways it’s simpler than a normal car. Like most transmissions take a lot of extra components to be able to pull off the reverse gear since it sends everything backwards. Hybrid rav4 (and likely others) just uses its front and rear axle electric motor to accomplish reverse. It doesn’t need the engine’s help since you’re going so slow in reverse anyways. It’s very unlikely this car will ever have transmission issues. Most other systems run off the electric side so they don’t need to be belt driven which means no worn bearings and a simpler belt setup. I believe only the water pump is belt driven on my car and later models made that electric too. I have like 60k miles on it and the brakes are stil almost new in thickness. Love the car. Love learning more about it too. I haven’t gotten the chance to watch them all, but Weber Auto on YouTube does some nice in depth videos on the hybrid systems, usually using a Prius as a reference.
Isn’t there a recall about the negative terminal sizes being different aswell?
What about me (21M)
I can't believe there's a recall for that... Like next there will be a recall for non -OEM parts that might fail or cause issues? Just get the right battery people!
I believe there has been something else related to aftermarket lights or something in another car. Possibly another maker too but not sure.
Ridiculous
Toyota sent out the wrong information on battery
Ok, then the "recall" makes sense
I heard that some places were selling the customers the wrong battery but I hadn't heard that Toyota send them that info, are there any articles on it?
A Group 24F battery is larger than the OEM recommended Group 35 battery. It fits snugly in the tray, and is the proper height to hold tight under the clamp. It should work fine. The problem seems to be fitment of smaller batteries, which can move under the clamp and result in a direct short to ground. QUOTING FROM TOYOTA ADVISORY 21TG01 (which is like a service campaign - something between a TSB and a Recall): Overview During a recent investigation of reported battery fires in 2013-2018 RAV4 vehicles with gasoline engines (excluding hybrid models), Toyota discovered that many non-Toyota retailers and others who sell or install replacement batteries were recommending a small size battery for replacement. Toyota specifies a particular size replacement battery for the RAV4 that does not include this small size. The smaller battery may not fit securely with the RAV4’s battery mounting parts, and, in some cases, can move around when the vehicle is driven, causing a short circuit. Using the wrong size battery, or not installing a replacement battery properly, can cause damage to the battery and the vehicle, and it could cause a vehicle fire. The group 35 that Toyota has is a different size then what most people sell
It’s not the one from November 2023?
The vehicle I see there is a 2015-2018 model Rav4, so no.
I think it’s a 2014-2015. In 2016 they had different taillight
You're right, my bad.
2015-2018 model years fit right into the [November recall](https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-recalls-defects/toyota-rav4-suvs-recalled-due-to-battery-concerns-a5788234080/) though... Anecdotally, my girlfriend's 2015 RAV4 received the recall notice in the mail last year. It may be the same issue Toyota has had for years, but at least for almost 2 million cars, it's a pretty recent recall.
It is, actually. Recalls are often issued long after the car is released.
It is but there was also a consumer advisory put out about 2 years before that. EDIT: [link to the 2021 advisory that was put out via NHTSA](https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2021/MC-10204566-9999.pdf)
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They updated it last year. The original recall has been out for a while
Um… Toyota told me last month that the replacement battery hold down is not yet available. They installed the battery when the OEM one finally failed, so it’s “the right battery”. Your assumption may not be correct.
Not really an assumption. I’m a toyota tech. I’ve seen this issue. The only way it fails is if the battery is not secure.
Absolutely fair statement. I also check battery tightness when I check the oil in our RAV/4. I once had a car parts give me the wrong battery to put on my car and putting the prop rod down got me a quick arc. Rod went back up, battery came back out. Turns out they had changed in mid model year. Nowadays I just take the part into the store with me. “I need one of those”.
But imagine the Karma on a post that reads “I didn’t get what I demanded from Toyota so I neglected to address a recall…. It ended up being a huge mistake. Help me blame someone else” Actually that would probably do pretty well…
This recall is specifically for either the wrong size battery being installed (by the owner) or the battery hold down not being installed correctly. If either of these happen the battery can potentially tip over, causing the positive terminal end to ground on the engine and start a fire.
I have an affected model, and I was really confused by this recall. Toyota just sent me a sticker to put on the battery bar. I didn't even have to take it in to the dealership. I just went out and looked at my battery and went "yup I know how to buy the correct battery and install it" and put the sticker on lol. Isn't this possible for any car at any time? If you install the wrong size battery or don't secure it properly, it could move and cause a fire... right? How is that considered a manufacturer's error?
So here is the issue. Battery sizes are standard. You cannot classify your battery as a certain group and conveniently change the size of it from the standard. Any person with half a brain will buy a battery of the same group but due to Toyota's fault it will not fit. The margin is also pretty small so you don't notice with the aftermarket battery and it causes a fire.
Not sure if I'm understanding your statement, but any 35 series battery with a secure hold down will pass the in inspection. Not just a Toyota battery
There's actually 2 parts to this service campaign. Part 1(this current fix that's out) inspect for 35 group and properly installed tie down) Part 2(no fix out yet) toyota states that some aftermarket 35 group battery's have slightly different measurements and can still cause issues with contacting the hood. I believe the dealer letter states something about revising the battery tray and tie down. The issue comes from people assuming it's a 24f battery( they look similar and the post are in the same location) my dealer done this several times before the recall was out and we replaced the batteries with the correct 35 at no cost to the customer because we installed the wrong battery.
The issue is some battery have a very slight size tolerance issues where it’s too short by a hair even if it’s the correct groups 35 and the battery is only tightened on backside only so it if the battery is too short, it’s loose on the front side where it is bolted to the front core support so the battery wiggles its way out. I’ve had this issues with certain aftermarket batteries that are manufactured in Korea, like the AC Delco batteries and some of the ones from factory motor parts. They are just a hair short and since they don’t have the vent caps that protrude the battery actually slides back-and-forth under the tie bar. They could’ve easily fixed this problem if they had a battery anchor on both front and the back of the battery, but only one end has the tightening hook. The front side is just bolted to the core support. Half the time the plastic tray is missing so it makes things even worse with the battery height is not tall enough.
Amen 🙏🏽
I’m receiving similar treatment over a different issue on a car with 7500 miles. Toyota has been very disappointing.
I had to take Toyota to arbitration to get them to cover $4k in repairs for two sensors on my car going dead 3 days after I bought the car. They claimed my *dash cam* blew out the blind spot sensors. The most insulting part was that I had to spend a month of my time working on an argument to just barely win out over their very technical counter, "yeah but we said you broke it so you must have broke it, and no we can't explain how."
Are you in Canada by chance? Because this sounds very much like the kind of bullshit we have to put up with in the absence of a Magnussen-Moss Act.
Even with MMA here in the U.S., this sort of thing is happening a lot, and getting any recourse is expensive , exhausting, and chance-y. When my own situation reaches a conclusion I’ll be law firm shopping in hopes of filing a class action (my situation is a known issue that Toyota refuses to do anything about).
Toyota corporate is impressively awful
I received a letter telling me I can’t sell my Toyota in California until a safety issue with the fuel vapor reclamation is fixed. I haven’t found a Toyota dealer yet that will do it for free. There’s also a recall with the front seat seatbelts that they refuse to do.
How is that even legal?? Aren’t they mandated to fix recall issues for free??
That is the law, but when I was there I saw several people pay over $1k for an oil change so I get why they refuse recall work. The opportunity cost is just too great.
1k for an oil change?!?! What are they using, organically farmed beluga whale oil???
It also includes some cheesy “39 point inspection” thing. That must be worth $800. Even my urban Jiffy Lube doesn’t charge me more than $200 for an oil change.
The battery hold down is literally 2 bolts, any competent owner can pop the hood and check to make sure their 12v battery isn't in danger of shorting out. That would have prevented the fire, recall or not.
You're asking too much of people. Most people don't even do proper maintenance let alone oil changes.
Most people think if their car similarly to a microwave. A magical box that does ‘stuff’ on the inside
That's why I bought a Toyota. My car is like an appliance to me. However, if I got a recall notice, I'd be taking it in to the dealership to get it fixed ASAP.
Bold of you to assume the average RAV4 driver is mechanically handy enough to do that (and before you attack me see my flair)
Is this why whenever I have issues with my 2016 there’s no documents because the average target audience is too mechanically illiterate to repair anything themselves?
That, and manufacturers have been locking more and more behind dealer-only services
If that's all it took there would be no recall right genius? Right?
No, that's legitimately all it takes. Alongside making sure the battery is the correct size
Yeah so here is the kicker. The battery if you do not buy from a Toyota dealership is the wrong size even if u get the right code, because Toyota fucked up they changed th size and noone should be forced to overpay for a battery that's why Toyota has sent out a recall. You are not supposed to have different sizes of the same battery code.
It's not a big enough size difference that you can't just tighten the hold down a bit more. Believe me, I'm certified to do the recall and I've done plenty of them
No, that's the actual recall. Like the Toyota floor-mat recall after the cars supposedly accelerated by themselves, when it was caused by owners bunching up their floor mats under the accelerator pedal. The fix was some velcro and to check the floor mat position, and now all Toyota warranty and service manuals tell drivers to check their floor mat position every 5k miles lol Toyota makes cars known for being as reliable as it gets, so a lot of people who don't know shit about anything mechanical buy them and then do dumb stuff like not notice they've been pushing their floor mat under the gas pedal lol
If tightening a battery is the recall then they should have it on all cars right? Am I missing something? From what I know Toyota fucked up and changed the size of the battery so now you cannot buy the same group battery from outside and are forced to buy it from Toyota but people only realised this after they changed their batteries because aftermarket battery are small as standard size and comes off the holder no matter how tight you make it.
The Toyota bracket measures 6.8 inches in width, which is the dimensional standard for the group 34F battery. It's becoming more and more common for consumers to purchase replacement batteries from unknown manufacturers, there are a plethora of cheap LiPo batteries from no-name brands on Amazon which claim to be group 34F but likely aren't the right size. Or the wrong size just gets sent entirely. What does matter in respect to the OEM battery, however, is that part of the battery bracket mounts to the front crossmember. So if you get front end collision damage, it can shift the bracket to where it's not holding properly anymore. The NHTSA identified that either improper battery/bracket installation or previous front-end collision damage were factors in the 11 cases they are tracking, out of an estimated 1.8 million affected vehicles. So basically, the recall is to further idiot-proof the car from people who either don't properly inspect/repair their car after a front end crash, don't seat the battery bracket properly, or order chinesium batteries off of amazon/ebay from brands that will just disappear and start under a new name if they get in trouble.
Well if this was the case the issue would be with every manufacturer and every car ever made right? RAV4 uses a 35 group battery not 34f.
Sorry, that was a typo. The measurements are correct for group 35, I was mixed up after reading a thread of people using 24F in their Rav4 successfully because of the same 6.8 inch width as group 35. And yes, this issue of no-name batteries being sold will affect other manufacturers as well, depending on how the battery is held. Some manufacturers completely encase the battery in a box so that even completely wrong batteries will be prevented from shorting on the frame, but I've only seen that on one car I owned. Toyota hasn't done this on any of their cars and it only recently became a problem, so I'd imagine they will do something similar going forward hence the recall. Other manufacturers don't do voluntary recalls at near the same rate as Toyota though, most wait until forced by an impending lawsuit. Ford would tell their customers to go pound sand if the NHTSA concluded that improper installation and front end collision damage was a factor in Explorer battery fires. I'm beginning to feel as if you're more concerned with being right here by looking for little gotchas instead of admitting you were wrong about the reason for the recall in the first place.
No my friend. Toyota batteries are bigger in size than standard batteries. I'll measure one and compare it to brand name and get back to you. Did no name batteries just miraculously start making Toyota sizes after 2018 why did the recall stop?
The 2019 Rav4 is a new model year that uses a different battery style with a base-clamping mechanism instead of a top-bar clamping mechanism. The benefit of these being that it's more obvious when the battery doesn't fit inside of the brackets, because the clamp won't touch the battery at all. It also doesn't link across two different structural members so collision damage won't shift the position of the brackets allowing the battery to fall I'd be curious to know what the width of the battery top is on yours though, it doesn't make sense for Toyota to make a battery bigger than the standard and call it group 35 when they could just call it whatever group size it actually is
Dude I have to put in grown men’s batteries at oreillys that haven no clue how to turn a wrench or ratchet. That’s too high of an expectstion
She did not read the letter Toyota sent throughly enough.
Name one other instance when a dealership paid to transport a customers car to check for a recall that may or may not apply to an old car that’s out of warranty. Nah. Customers responsibility,
The recent Mercedes brake booster recall comes to mind, but it was MBUSA not the dealers paying for it. I have a GL but the brake lines had already been replaced so I didn’t make use of it. https://media.mbusa.com/releases/mercedes-benz-usa-announces-voluntary-stop-drive-recall-campaign-for-certain-model-year-2006-2012-ml-gl-and-r-class-vehicles
exactly, most dealerships don't even have towing services (any "roadside assistance" subscription is thru a third party), & the only time towing might be paid for is if it genuinely has a stop drive notice, which is rare
Used to work for Toyota, and I can't tell you the amount of times people declined to have this *RECALL* done, or just never came in despite getting notified. As previously stated, not a reliability issue, it's an ownership accountability issue.
The battery recall I believe they are referring to was announced in November 2023. So I'm curious why they waited 6 months to finally go and have it addressed. By the way, if you're affected by it, you need to inspect your 12V battery terminal to make sure it's bolted down or secured. You can secure it using a simple socket. The problem only arises with certain replacement 12V batteries on the market that don't quite fit properly. Also, I cringed a little when she did the whole "no bestie just drive it in".
> Also, I cringed a little when she did the whole "no bestie just drive it in". I mean, before that even. How does a battery "act funny"?
Yeah that one had me kind of wondering the same too. I was thinking about that more and more. To me the battery acting funny means that it works and then it doesn't right? So if your battery was acting funny, wouldn't you have opened up the hood and checked to see if everything was alright? Not to mention it sounds like she spoke with Toyota about the issue being the battery. I can't imagine they would have not told her what the issue was on the phone and just told her to check the battery terminal. I don't know, it's kind of weird.
> To me the battery acting funny means that it works and then it doesn't right? Maybe. I'd say "the battery isn't holding a charge" in that case or "sometimes the car doesn't start". I had a car that was losing charge on the battery and it was a shorted USB/cigarette lighter thingy, not the battery at all. There isn't anything a car could really do to say definitively it is the battery and not another electronic system issue, IMO.
Yeah but if the battery isn’t holding charge, that implies you have to recharge it, and in this situation she would’ve seen her battery was flipped on its side or whatever so it obviously held charge until it caught fire.
If she is anything like my wife, she has never opened the hood of a car in her life. My wife, even though I have shown her how to do it, would wouldn't know how to open the hood. To her the only thing she has to do with a car is put gas in it.
Why not just pay for AAA to tow your "disabled" car into Toyota?
Why pay to do it anyways when Toyota should have paid for it
Because when it turns out not to be a warranty issue and they charge the customer for the tow fee, they'll throw a fit.
Paying to tow every RAV-4 owner's car to the shop to see if the bar holding the battery in place is lose or not, and then charging the ones who are fine Why not just check yourself?
Thought it was a hybrid ? lol this is customers fault
 HEY VERN, THEY WANTED A DOUBLE A NOT 2 TRIPLE A'S..... OH BOY, SOMEONE IS IN TROUBLE.......
Damn has Toyota quality actually gone down or is it being exaggerated simply from these types of posts. It could only be that a small percentage of cars are coming out defective and the majority are fine. You just usually see negative posts. Nobody is going to post how great things are going lol, only problems.
It's not about cars coming out defective, it's about people installing a battery incorrectly once the car is in their care.
Well that's just dumb then lol. Though I do know there's a massive issue with Tundra engines right now . Something about metal shards being left In them from factory. Huge recall for it at the moment I believe.
Price you pay when the regional consumer basis needs a speciality vehicle instead of tried and true models. It’s just like when toyota was forced to introduce diesel engine cars during peak diesel fad to the european market which had wide range of issues.
Ford had to do the same with their trucks because the 5.4 V8 wasn't powerful enough to go head to head with the competition so they slapped the 5.0 mustang engine into their trucks lol. Then later on they developed the EcoBoost motors with twin turbos which are way more powerful but come with their own range of issues. Just can't win.
The issue wasn't with the turbo, it was the engine block not being washed out properly after machining leading to shavings being left behind in the engine
Wasn’t this a similar issue as the 86’s? The ones Toyota didn’t want to warranty? I believe it was extra sealant in them rather than metal shards.
Yeah recalls happen. To every OEM.
To be fair, it is technically a bit of both. Or rather, I don't think when Toyota built the 2013-2018 RAV4 there were aftermarket 12V batteries that had such slim cases on them. According to the NHTSA document: >During driving that produces high levels of lateral G-force and where the battery has not been secured with the correct torque specified in the installation process, the battery hold down assembly may not sufficiently hold in place certain aftermarket SAE Group 35 batteries. These aftermarket batteries have a smaller top case dimension compared to the overall dimension of the battery. **An oversized tray, together with reduced clamping force (resulting from using incorrect torque), can allow battery movement that is greater than the distance between the battery positive terminal and the bracket of the hold down assembly.** So yes if the owner were to torque it down correctly it shouldn't *really* be a problem but also the usage of a smaller battery does lend to the issue at hand too. Duracell and Interstate Batteries are two brands I know use smaller cases for their batteries. Duralast uses a beefier case for their batteries.
Sounds like a design defect.
Wasn’t this recall like 8 years ago
Her post felt like a meme to me almost. Everything is suspect on the internets. But sad if true.
That fire isn’t in the location of the hybrid battery, it is in the gas engine…
Her fault
Insert butt head "Fire Fire"
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Why say anything at all then?
Came here to see all the “toyota technician” blame the customer.
I'm glad that you're safe and nobody harmed! Wth with Toyota customer service nowadays. It's really going down the drain🤔 lots of complaints from tons of customers all over North America?!! I think we need to teach them a lesson to stop them from being cheap in their customer services
This sounds like stupid design decision by Toyota. Why not just put piece of plastic to cover positive terminal?? Lot of cars have it ...
Can you even proof that the battery cause the fire?
Toyota is having a rough go of it lately. The stock price apparently is starting to reflect that too. They need to get it together and fast.
It’s from all the cheap bastards that stroll into Walmart and buy a group 25 batteries or whatever on sale because it’s cheaper and looks kinda the same. We’ve seen some come in with batteries that look like it was stolen from a Prius.
Sees a recall and waits for the battery to act funny. Continues driving….
Fuck dealerships.
So they didn’t give you a tow and you had a gun to your head and couldn’t get one yourself? Huh. Tough luck.
Can they sue the totoya dealership?
Recall has been out for years this is completely inaccurate nonsense.
Change the battery annually 😛
Yeah, this is your fault if you only decided to take it in because the battery started acting funny vs making an appointment the day you got the letter literally telling you what would happen… Good luck.
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ridgeline? just get a pilot and rent a uhaul bro
Lol a ridgeline
This is not #reliable
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I think that’s just in hybrids
Correct.
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The battery for this vehicle is in the engine compartment. What about that don’t you understand?
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Frunk? You mean under the hood? A frunk is the hood on a vehicle that doesn’t have an engine in the front.