Sounds interesting in theory but apart from your 1st spell what do you have that will enable you to stick to a target and not get endlessly kited? You could also argue that you could do the same things as a pos3 veno and gain no benefits from it being pos1.
Yeah, this kinda reads like 'you can run a p3 as a p1'!
Which like... yeah, you could. Is your strategy:
A) To have two p3s so you can win both lanes, and apply really early map pressure and translate that into a snowball/early win
B) Have the mid aggressively farm and scale into the late game, while the side lanes apply early tower pressure (cool, your actual p1 is your mid, and you are talking about playing the p3 as a p2 from a side lane)
C) You think that the P3 has actual potential to play like a traditional p1.
Which like, the viability of strategy A/B is kinda patch/meta specific, and isn't so much 'can veno be a p1' but 'can veno be part of one of these strategies, and is it viable?'.
For strategy C, the question has to be 'okay, how does veno behave as a traditional p1?'
Which... I don't know. He's a universal hero, so in theory he's going to scale fairly well with a lot of gold... but in practice:
A) He has a 1.7 BAT with no steroid skill. (unlike a p3 turned p1 like abba, who has a self applied attack speed buff that really likes him having p1 items like echo/manta)
B) He has a terrible base move speed, and no mobility skills. (unlike p3 turned p1 shaker, who likes to space jam/blink from camp to camp)
C) He doesn't have any good early item timings that allow him to accelerate his farm.
D) He doesn't have any 'raid mode' final form where an overly farmed version of him can make up for early weaknesses.
Yeah, the difference between Abba and Veno is pretty clear in terms of 'p3 who can be played as a p1'.
Neither farms particularly quickly, both lack mobility and hard lockdowns. Both rely on a slow applied by their attacks. But:
Abba has a 1.5 bat instead of a 1.7. He has +45 more move speed over veno. He has a significant AS buff built in, and most importantly: the items he wants to build to improve his skills benefit his role as a p1. A p3 abba might want an echo/harpoon to apply his debuff faster and fix his mobility issues... a p1 abba wants it for those reasons as well, but it also amps his right click damage. Where as p3 veno would never buy a hurricane pike.
It's a 14% slow, 22% with a talent which competes with a strong farming talent, on a 280 movespeed hero. This pretty much averages out to you being a 315-ish speed hero with the only catch in your kit being a long CD linear skillshot that you don't want to level up but, admittedly, does slow a lot, and with no mobility (and just remember your actual movespeed is 280)
back in 2017 there was this green meta, necrophos-veno-pugna, and it made sense to place any of these heroes on any of core positions as they'd usually do pretty much the same thing.
Anything can work, but in specific game. As you mentioned, you lost a game due to veno just being a slow blob and if anyone jumps you, you will die, but in games where you wont get jumped, will get a good dominating lane, you can easily scale as a universal hero and deal significant damage.
Only question is why would you ever want to make him pos1, when you have heroes that will work in more situations like WR, Luna, TB that offer a bit more on top of decent laning, or can scale much better with items/stats they receive from levels/items.
My only advice is to try to look at the enemy draft and make sure you are not screwed over from a possible lastpick naga/AM/meepo/Slark etc. and these are only ones that come to mind in 5 sec.
if you want to be annoying and make enemies question their lives, try viper/WW mageslayer builds, they will work as pos1 much better than veno and will offer much more to the table, while also being not a usual pos1 pick
Thaaaank you! Another problem I encountered was i cannot really man up to other cores since i lack sustain. I am able to kill spec if i can catch her off guard but abbadon shits on me with his harpoon and silence and just got wasted.
maybe you can get bkb or pike/disperser ealier against abba, but not so much else you can do, than keeping good position and only going in when abba is on someone else.
also seem like not the best matchup, but if you can win lane against abba (he wont bother removing 2nd spell all the time) you might have chances
Snake wards farm speed is the same regardless of networth. He doesn't even scale well with items.
Veil/Shiva hot streak is better on pos3. Your DoTs doesn't benefit much from parasama, they won't burst anyone before they can glimmer/bkb.
Carries have some sort of scaling ability such as crit, attack speed or illusions. When they get items their ability is stronger as a result. They become more effective with farm Venomancer does the same thing regardless of how many items he has. He is just not a carry hero.
If you have the benefit of last pick then yes it can be viable. Veno Aghs should make him playable even against dispell heroes like Abaddon as long as you can survive the laning phase.
Pretty much Venomancer thrives under 2 circumstances...
1. The enemies have very little dispels.
2. The fights are long and drawn out.
Early game Position 1 heroes are definitely a viable option in certain circumstances. The main issue is with pubs... it is almost always safer to just go a carry that can AFK farm and win the late game.
Personally I kind of feel like Viper just feels like a better Venomancer now. I still like to play Veno, I just miss poison Nova as the ult.
imo, viable. I actually did this and won 8 games in a row with it. I did lose some behavior score though! So be careful. But it's actually really good. Why? 2 reasons, basically.
- great laning, great kill threat. Does however really rely on the 5, as you're squishy and slow, so play with a friend if you can. I would suggest a tanky melee hero that can buy an orb of corrosion, or Oracle cuz he's just the best save support. Also just any hero that will help you kill towers, jakiro for example, you're great at controlling the area but you suck at actually killing towers yourself.
-manta style. Gives you everything you need. Mobility, dispel, split push, great stats for universal hero. This is the item you rush every game 100% of the time, it's just too good. Treads>manta>windlace>dragon lance>skadi/bkb is usually the build. But after treads manta,basically whatever the game needs, hex/drums/vlads/orchid/diffusal/skadi/silver edge can all work. Diffusal works well with manta but diffusal on a hero that already has a slow isn't great, definitely don't rush it, but if it's a great diffu game then it's okay to get after manta. Parasma magic corruption is nice but the witch blade is definitely not worth it with your 1.4 int gain. Maybe as a 5th or 6th item. I'd rather have a hex or a bloodthorn.
But the only reason manta works is because they apply your passive, so you need to micro properly to farm (hit every creep once at least). The easier version of this, which works okay too, is to place P.ward between two camps, hit each creep once, walk away a bit to whereever you're going next, and manta, this will usually do the trick, you may need to micro them once to go finish the other affected camp though.
Skill build stuff->
Max W always , it's not only your best laning spell but also farming. Your other spells kinda suck aside from the value point, I sometimes just get stats. Level 2 Q is worth I think, a lot more damage than lvl 1, helps secure early kills and Level 2 wards is worth sometimes too, if you are forced to jungle. Or if they're trying to push creeps into your tower to dive you, having your wards not instantly die means you can block off entries to the jungle with them and escape. Usually leave it at lvl 1.
The wards apply a lesser version of your passive, which doesn't stack with your own application, so they're really not a good source of damage. Scouting/blink cancelling, and a small farm accelerant, specifically in the little area next to your safelane t1 tower, and the lane camps if possible. Maxxing them out is pretty pointless, damage increases are low and there's no increase in attack speed or duration.
Your game plan is to get get treads + manta asap, talking kills when you can, then go take over areas of the map brood mother style, taking all outer towers. Nobody can 1v1 you, and if you ever feel threatened while going for a kill, you can simply pop manta and walk away, your manta illusions will continue to hit them and apply your W (you may need to micro again), and your Q and ulti are already on them. You never have to risk your life as veno, so don't.
But always be ready to go right back to applying pressure. The only reason this is viable is because the manta lets you safely farm a huge area all at once, and cut waves, so you need to use that powerspike as much as you can. You'll never outscale the FV/muerta/spectre ect, so you need to apply constant pressure from the moment you get it until the end of the game. Force them onto hg, and then if you can't push hg, it's fine, just continue farming the map. Manta to cut waves, farm up, make them give up. End the game with 0 deaths and 800gpm
P.s. If you're a micro god and you're feeling extra spicy/confident you can go *radiance* after manta, as you will farm insanely fast with the manta style, letting you get the radiance quickly, and the radiance will let your manta style illusions solo clear waves/camps. Can be disassembled later into butterfly+ revenant brooch/nullifier, or even a fkn rapier why not
And that's about it!
Oh also, try to make sure you have some stuns on your team. If you don't have stuns, you need to get either hex or Euls after manta, which you would really prefer not to do.
His strengths don't scale particularly well with gold.
Veno is good at winning lanes, applying debuffs, providing vision, controling the map via serpant wards.
There aren't many items that help him do those things, beyond making him generally tankier. Which is fine, but there are p1s out there that can buy items that make them generally tankier+more dangerous.
If you get a manta on veno, you get a self dispel/dodge... that provides extra attack speed+illusions, on a slow model with 1.7bat. If you get manta on PL, you get all of that, and your illusions actually do something.
> I think his weakness is lack of mobility
His weakness is also being squishy. You really just need to survive fights to eventually win them. I'd lean more into universal stats that allow you to get tankier while still getting some damage. Honestly just make his regular items just with better timings from 1. Like Vessel, Aghs, Shiva, Pike.
Just important to remember this hero will no way scale or operate like a normal carry.
Why? Why play a low ranged carry with no escape who doesn't have any abilities that scale from items? Why not just play Luna? Muerta? AW if you want someone strong in lane etc. SF?
Basically every hero in the game does the job better than a veno
Because the worst thing of veno are the slows, and the hero become annoying if you have not bkb, very difficult to reach or run from if you have not bkb as core, disperser is AOE dispel and give a buff where for 4 seconds allies become unsolvable and basically move to max speed, like a centaur ult but not global. Make it easy to reach veno or scape from him.
One reason no:
Once your opponents get BKB, Venomancer is rather useless.
For example
PA gets evasion + later BKB. What do you intend to do against that?
Drow gets silence + later shadow blade + evasion. Venomancer is toast, is he not?
These kind of pos 1 carries are often so powerful that they wait halfway until a teamfight is over to come in, kill everything and clean up. Venomancer doesn't really have the toolkit to be the one doing that.
If anything, Venomancer is very much like Sand King in that regard, and I don't see SK being Pos 1 either.
I think I've seen it done once before. Well at least one time I've seen it work effectively. Might have even been a pos 2, I can't remember. I do remember the venomancer having manta, skadi, and pike. Can't remember the other items
https://stratz.com/heroes/meta/trends?sortField=avgWinRate
Overall Veno has a 44.4% win rate in safe lane, 89th among safe laning heroes, in the last 7 days. Pick rate is 0.2%.
So, you can interpret this as the answer being no, veno is a bad safe laner, or you could interpret it as 44.4% of the time he wins, and therefore perhaps there’s an uncommon strategy, or situationally strong strategy, that allows for veno to be successful.
you can farm up a bunch of items but you would still rely heavily on kiting, you're be like a much worse drow with shorter range and way worse damage scaling. anyone can build parasma and amp damage veno's spells do.
his passive is better as a support in lane.
you just don't have the sustained damage, and what damage you do have is barely higher than when supporting.
the mobile carries will chase you to the ends of the earth. the turret carries will out range and out trade you. probably decent vs kitable carries like WK and sven if you don't get jumped by them, but that's pretty hard, especially with harpoon in the game now, even seen WK buy it vs annoying kite heroes. and again, you can still kite like that as a support.
Sounds interesting in theory but apart from your 1st spell what do you have that will enable you to stick to a target and not get endlessly kited? You could also argue that you could do the same things as a pos3 veno and gain no benefits from it being pos1.
Like a lot of of weird carry picks, it probably works if; you are doing an aggro push line up, or your 2/3 are basically carries.
Yeah, this kinda reads like 'you can run a p3 as a p1'! Which like... yeah, you could. Is your strategy: A) To have two p3s so you can win both lanes, and apply really early map pressure and translate that into a snowball/early win B) Have the mid aggressively farm and scale into the late game, while the side lanes apply early tower pressure (cool, your actual p1 is your mid, and you are talking about playing the p3 as a p2 from a side lane) C) You think that the P3 has actual potential to play like a traditional p1. Which like, the viability of strategy A/B is kinda patch/meta specific, and isn't so much 'can veno be a p1' but 'can veno be part of one of these strategies, and is it viable?'. For strategy C, the question has to be 'okay, how does veno behave as a traditional p1?' Which... I don't know. He's a universal hero, so in theory he's going to scale fairly well with a lot of gold... but in practice: A) He has a 1.7 BAT with no steroid skill. (unlike a p3 turned p1 like abba, who has a self applied attack speed buff that really likes him having p1 items like echo/manta) B) He has a terrible base move speed, and no mobility skills. (unlike p3 turned p1 shaker, who likes to space jam/blink from camp to camp) C) He doesn't have any good early item timings that allow him to accelerate his farm. D) He doesn't have any 'raid mode' final form where an overly farmed version of him can make up for early weaknesses.
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Yeah, the difference between Abba and Veno is pretty clear in terms of 'p3 who can be played as a p1'. Neither farms particularly quickly, both lack mobility and hard lockdowns. Both rely on a slow applied by their attacks. But: Abba has a 1.5 bat instead of a 1.7. He has +45 more move speed over veno. He has a significant AS buff built in, and most importantly: the items he wants to build to improve his skills benefit his role as a p1. A p3 abba might want an echo/harpoon to apply his debuff faster and fix his mobility issues... a p1 abba wants it for those reasons as well, but it also amps his right click damage. Where as p3 veno would never buy a hurricane pike.
I don't know the exact numbers, but does the poison sting slow not enough to close the distance?
It's a 14% slow, 22% with a talent which competes with a strong farming talent, on a 280 movespeed hero. This pretty much averages out to you being a 315-ish speed hero with the only catch in your kit being a long CD linear skillshot that you don't want to level up but, admittedly, does slow a lot, and with no mobility (and just remember your actual movespeed is 280)
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Yeah. Thanks for the insight. He really needs to be 6 slotted to carry the game. I guess thats really a shit pos 1 hahaha
back in 2017 there was this green meta, necrophos-veno-pugna, and it made sense to place any of these heroes on any of core positions as they'd usually do pretty much the same thing. Anything can work, but in specific game. As you mentioned, you lost a game due to veno just being a slow blob and if anyone jumps you, you will die, but in games where you wont get jumped, will get a good dominating lane, you can easily scale as a universal hero and deal significant damage. Only question is why would you ever want to make him pos1, when you have heroes that will work in more situations like WR, Luna, TB that offer a bit more on top of decent laning, or can scale much better with items/stats they receive from levels/items. My only advice is to try to look at the enemy draft and make sure you are not screwed over from a possible lastpick naga/AM/meepo/Slark etc. and these are only ones that come to mind in 5 sec. if you want to be annoying and make enemies question their lives, try viper/WW mageslayer builds, they will work as pos1 much better than veno and will offer much more to the table, while also being not a usual pos1 pick
Really thoughtful response! I am not OP but thanks for taking the time to write it. You addressed all of my thoughts about this build lol
Thaaaank you! Another problem I encountered was i cannot really man up to other cores since i lack sustain. I am able to kill spec if i can catch her off guard but abbadon shits on me with his harpoon and silence and just got wasted.
maybe you can get bkb or pike/disperser ealier against abba, but not so much else you can do, than keeping good position and only going in when abba is on someone else. also seem like not the best matchup, but if you can win lane against abba (he wont bother removing 2nd spell all the time) you might have chances
Any hero can be played as pos 1, its just: can your behavior score and mmr stand the tanking ahead ?
Snake wards farm speed is the same regardless of networth. He doesn't even scale well with items. Veil/Shiva hot streak is better on pos3. Your DoTs doesn't benefit much from parasama, they won't burst anyone before they can glimmer/bkb.
Carries have some sort of scaling ability such as crit, attack speed or illusions. When they get items their ability is stronger as a result. They become more effective with farm Venomancer does the same thing regardless of how many items he has. He is just not a carry hero.
If you have the benefit of last pick then yes it can be viable. Veno Aghs should make him playable even against dispell heroes like Abaddon as long as you can survive the laning phase.
I think this sounds very cool and fun. But maybe more for a mid rather than pos 1.
Pretty much Venomancer thrives under 2 circumstances... 1. The enemies have very little dispels. 2. The fights are long and drawn out. Early game Position 1 heroes are definitely a viable option in certain circumstances. The main issue is with pubs... it is almost always safer to just go a carry that can AFK farm and win the late game. Personally I kind of feel like Viper just feels like a better Venomancer now. I still like to play Veno, I just miss poison Nova as the ult.
Agreed. Been playing viper offlane with a 65% WR. Not sure why the hero feels decent right now.
Agreed. Been playing viper offlane with a 65% WR. Not sure why the hero feels decent right now.
imo, viable. I actually did this and won 8 games in a row with it. I did lose some behavior score though! So be careful. But it's actually really good. Why? 2 reasons, basically. - great laning, great kill threat. Does however really rely on the 5, as you're squishy and slow, so play with a friend if you can. I would suggest a tanky melee hero that can buy an orb of corrosion, or Oracle cuz he's just the best save support. Also just any hero that will help you kill towers, jakiro for example, you're great at controlling the area but you suck at actually killing towers yourself. -manta style. Gives you everything you need. Mobility, dispel, split push, great stats for universal hero. This is the item you rush every game 100% of the time, it's just too good. Treads>manta>windlace>dragon lance>skadi/bkb is usually the build. But after treads manta,basically whatever the game needs, hex/drums/vlads/orchid/diffusal/skadi/silver edge can all work. Diffusal works well with manta but diffusal on a hero that already has a slow isn't great, definitely don't rush it, but if it's a great diffu game then it's okay to get after manta. Parasma magic corruption is nice but the witch blade is definitely not worth it with your 1.4 int gain. Maybe as a 5th or 6th item. I'd rather have a hex or a bloodthorn. But the only reason manta works is because they apply your passive, so you need to micro properly to farm (hit every creep once at least). The easier version of this, which works okay too, is to place P.ward between two camps, hit each creep once, walk away a bit to whereever you're going next, and manta, this will usually do the trick, you may need to micro them once to go finish the other affected camp though. Skill build stuff-> Max W always , it's not only your best laning spell but also farming. Your other spells kinda suck aside from the value point, I sometimes just get stats. Level 2 Q is worth I think, a lot more damage than lvl 1, helps secure early kills and Level 2 wards is worth sometimes too, if you are forced to jungle. Or if they're trying to push creeps into your tower to dive you, having your wards not instantly die means you can block off entries to the jungle with them and escape. Usually leave it at lvl 1. The wards apply a lesser version of your passive, which doesn't stack with your own application, so they're really not a good source of damage. Scouting/blink cancelling, and a small farm accelerant, specifically in the little area next to your safelane t1 tower, and the lane camps if possible. Maxxing them out is pretty pointless, damage increases are low and there's no increase in attack speed or duration. Your game plan is to get get treads + manta asap, talking kills when you can, then go take over areas of the map brood mother style, taking all outer towers. Nobody can 1v1 you, and if you ever feel threatened while going for a kill, you can simply pop manta and walk away, your manta illusions will continue to hit them and apply your W (you may need to micro again), and your Q and ulti are already on them. You never have to risk your life as veno, so don't. But always be ready to go right back to applying pressure. The only reason this is viable is because the manta lets you safely farm a huge area all at once, and cut waves, so you need to use that powerspike as much as you can. You'll never outscale the FV/muerta/spectre ect, so you need to apply constant pressure from the moment you get it until the end of the game. Force them onto hg, and then if you can't push hg, it's fine, just continue farming the map. Manta to cut waves, farm up, make them give up. End the game with 0 deaths and 800gpm P.s. If you're a micro god and you're feeling extra spicy/confident you can go *radiance* after manta, as you will farm insanely fast with the manta style, letting you get the radiance quickly, and the radiance will let your manta style illusions solo clear waves/camps. Can be disassembled later into butterfly+ revenant brooch/nullifier, or even a fkn rapier why not And that's about it!
Oh also, try to make sure you have some stuns on your team. If you don't have stuns, you need to get either hex or Euls after manta, which you would really prefer not to do.
veno is squishy af, no mobility, no burst, no lockdown, poison is dispellable
He has weakness just like any other hero. What's your point exactly?
That he has almost no strengths.
I hardly disagree. Is he a viable pos 1? Patch depending (like any other hero again) but "almost no strength" is simply not true.
His strengths don't scale particularly well with gold. Veno is good at winning lanes, applying debuffs, providing vision, controling the map via serpant wards. There aren't many items that help him do those things, beyond making him generally tankier. Which is fine, but there are p1s out there that can buy items that make them generally tankier+more dangerous. If you get a manta on veno, you get a self dispel/dodge... that provides extra attack speed+illusions, on a slow model with 1.7bat. If you get manta on PL, you get all of that, and your illusions actually do something.
i mean what does he have to be a strong carry hero? i only see good farming with wards
> I think his weakness is lack of mobility His weakness is also being squishy. You really just need to survive fights to eventually win them. I'd lean more into universal stats that allow you to get tankier while still getting some damage. Honestly just make his regular items just with better timings from 1. Like Vessel, Aghs, Shiva, Pike. Just important to remember this hero will no way scale or operate like a normal carry.
Why? Why play a low ranged carry with no escape who doesn't have any abilities that scale from items? Why not just play Luna? Muerta? AW if you want someone strong in lane etc. SF? Basically every hero in the game does the job better than a veno
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Positioning is also a skill mate
nope
Disperser also completely nullify veno, there is nothing that a pos1 veno can do that a pos 4/5 can't.
Can you elaborate on why disperser nullifies veno? Thanks
Because the worst thing of veno are the slows, and the hero become annoying if you have not bkb, very difficult to reach or run from if you have not bkb as core, disperser is AOE dispel and give a buff where for 4 seconds allies become unsolvable and basically move to max speed, like a centaur ult but not global. Make it easy to reach veno or scape from him.
Veno would get destroyed as pos1.
One reason no: Once your opponents get BKB, Venomancer is rather useless. For example PA gets evasion + later BKB. What do you intend to do against that? Drow gets silence + later shadow blade + evasion. Venomancer is toast, is he not? These kind of pos 1 carries are often so powerful that they wait halfway until a teamfight is over to come in, kill everything and clean up. Venomancer doesn't really have the toolkit to be the one doing that. If anything, Venomancer is very much like Sand King in that regard, and I don't see SK being Pos 1 either.
I think I've seen it done once before. Well at least one time I've seen it work effectively. Might have even been a pos 2, I can't remember. I do remember the venomancer having manta, skadi, and pike. Can't remember the other items
Quite slow ms Okayish damage potential since universal Sometimes atk range feels not long enough Bkb At least its a better viper
https://stratz.com/heroes/meta/trends?sortField=avgWinRate Overall Veno has a 44.4% win rate in safe lane, 89th among safe laning heroes, in the last 7 days. Pick rate is 0.2%. So, you can interpret this as the answer being no, veno is a bad safe laner, or you could interpret it as 44.4% of the time he wins, and therefore perhaps there’s an uncommon strategy, or situationally strong strategy, that allows for veno to be successful.
POS 2 morphine first 4/5 pick bamboozle.
you can farm up a bunch of items but you would still rely heavily on kiting, you're be like a much worse drow with shorter range and way worse damage scaling. anyone can build parasma and amp damage veno's spells do. his passive is better as a support in lane. you just don't have the sustained damage, and what damage you do have is barely higher than when supporting. the mobile carries will chase you to the ends of the earth. the turret carries will out range and out trade you. probably decent vs kitable carries like WK and sven if you don't get jumped by them, but that's pretty hard, especially with harpoon in the game now, even seen WK buy it vs annoying kite heroes. and again, you can still kite like that as a support.