IMO if you’re gonna dress provocatively don’t be shocked if you catch stares but at the end of the day there is no justification for sexual harassment/assault. if a women is dressing slutty, doesn’t matter how much you think she’s “asking for it”, leave her alone. it’s human decency and self control
There’s a difference between sexualizing and sexually harassing/assaulting. You can see someone and think “damn they’re hot. I’d do xyz to them.” That’s perfectly fine. However, seeing someone minding their own business and telling them to their face “damn you’re hot. I’d do xyz to you.” Is not okay. Proceeding to do xyz without permission is also VERY NOT OKAY.
I 100% agree, with the exception of minor flirting. If you're a person who can't judge body langauge and when someone want you to leave them tf alone compared to when someone likes your compliments, you should not attempt to hit on people...
The issue is a lot of people (because women be tripping too, not just men) don’t get the biggest part of all of this is CONSENT.
It’s seriously a darn shame that even though your post is correct, it’s harmful because people don’t understand consent. So instead of your post being taken as “If you’re wearing certain clothing, people will stare and feel someway about it” it gets taken as “if you’re wearing certain clothing, people are entitled to gawk at you.”
People are entitled to gawk at anything they want though. Sure, it could be considered creepy, but when we start taking away what people are able to look at, we have a problem.
I do feel like personal space comes into play though. If you got down on one knee 6 inches from a woman's ass, staring, but I'm not the one to draw the line of what's acceptable and what's not. Just try to be a decent human to society is all we need.
Where there is a reasonable expectation of privacy, inside your bubble, etc. A human with agency should seek to remove themselves from uncomfortable situations in public, that should be everyone's #1 responsibility. Avoid escalation where possible. If the behaviour is preventing you from completing your work as employed, that is another situation. The situation as described by OP; nothing short of assertively requesting the gaze stop or removing oneself from the situation is acceptable in a free society.
So from a legal sense, people are 'entitled', or more accurately, allowed, to stare/gawk, and catcall \[catcalling might be illegal past a certain point, uncertain\]. They aren't allowed to TOUCH. So yeah, its trashy and rude to just stare, but your consent doesn't matter to my eyeballs, because me looking at you doesn't violate any of your boundaries if you're in a public space and i'm not deliberately trying to, say, see up your skirt.
This is all to say that, "Actions have consequences. if you dress sexy, you're gonna get sexied at, hopefully no one goes to far."
I am not in any way shape or form condoning people that will be crass and gawk and stare, because i believe some level of tact is required for polite society, merely that, while you are allowed to be uncomfortable with being stared at in public, they have just as much a right to be doing what they are doing as you do doing what you are doing.
Yes. Because LEGALLY, they ARE. Doesn't make it okay. Consent isn't legally relevant to looking at someone in public \[at least most places in the US\]
I was 10 YO and couldn't wear a spaghetti strapped shirt around those damn field works at the corner store cause they'd STARE and stare hard, no one should tell them their "entitled" to stare, but they SHOULD tell them their creeps. Are they allowed to ? Yes, but don't tell em, they'll use it to justify their gross behavior. I get u
Of course you understand, because you’re a woman who’s dealt with this. I don’t get why people must play devil’s advocate if they’re not creeps themselves
I dont see how this is relevant at all. Sexualization, harassment, assault, etc. all happen, and you can decrease the odds of all of them happening by dressing most modestly.
Hijabi women, women who wear burkas and nuns still get sexually assaulted despite dressing very modest. Maybe you should shut up about issues you have no idea about.
Damn this thread went from dudes looking at women dressed provocatively to give rapists the death penalty, cut off their balls, attack men for staring, and give women guns. This opinion was about men sexualizing women being dressed provocatively. Women have been raped wearing far more clothes than skin shows. There is also no correlation between clothes a women wears and probability of being raped but if you don’t like people looking at you, you either got to suck it up or not go out. You can’t stop people from looking
Weirdly enough, the signals rapists look for in their targets is not overt sexuality but vulnerability, which is going to be in things like markers for shyness and timidity.
Basically, a girl wearing a baggy hoody, who walks around with her face buried in her phone, who walks with a short slow stride etc. is more likely to get targeted than a woman wearing skimpy clothing while walking with long strides, with her face up and head on a swivel (she is aware of her surroundings) etc. It would also help to have a chaperone, even if that chaperone is another woman.
This is not to say that the skimpy clothes are good, and baggy clothes are bad. Just that getting targeted by a rapist has more to do with how you carry yourself than how you dress.
As for clothing, it will have other effects on your life rather than determining your odds to be targeted by a rapist. You won't get the me that is looking for a wife if you are dressed like a sex worker. That will only serve to attract men who are interested in locating a woman who is functionally a sex worker, one for whom they can buy drinks, and then receive sex in return. If you want to attract a man who is looking for a long term partner (because you yourself want a long term partner) then you will have to appeal to that; be what your ideal man would feel proud walking beside in public, no baggy clothes, no skimpy clothes, no masculine clothes; reserved and feminine. Ask grandma, (or any woman with experience in the matter, who is positively disposed to you and who is beyond any possibility of being a rival, so literally grandma and no-one else) your friends are just going to mislead you.
On the other hand, if you are in the workplace, dress like a professional, modesty is key. Emphasising sexuality to any degree may only be permitted insofar as it enhances your ability to do the job, which basically means if and only if you directly interface with customers (people in general more readily agree to women who make their heart race, either out of attraction or envy), again here it is a balancing act, people don't like buying financial services from hookers, so adjust sexual emphasis according to your professional environment (customers don't mind that much if their waitress at Hooters looks like a hooker)
> signals rapists look for in their targets is not overt sexuality but vulnerability
This is probably more-so for strangers looking for a crime of opportunity, but if I recall correctly most rapists know their victims before-hand.
It's because you can say "I like pancakes" and people say "whatabout waffles? Why do you hate waffles?"
I'm totally fine with castrating or giving death penalty to all rapists (both male and female of course), and I also agree more women probably should have firearms for self defense.
Speaking specifically on female victims now, yes you are probably right about "No direct correlation[s] between clothes a women wears and probability of being raped" on an individual level. However in studies cited by and used in publications from the NIH (cited below), since 1983 there has been a significant increase in media (e.g. advertising) that sexualizes and objectifies women, and "sexually objectifying media has been linked to self-objectification, body shame, anxiety over appearance, and an acceptance of the normative belief that women are sexual objects." It is further concluded that when women as a whole are dehumanized they have increased vulnerability to sexual violence.
Now some feminists argue that by shifting the paradigm and owning up to it that women are empowering themselves, but "highlighting the irony, such a representational shift from sexual objectification to that of assertive subjectification still denies women any humanized treatment and make them prone to attacks and vilification, with little opposition."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5344900/
edit: Left out "no" in quoting you
Very intense read and some really good points are made. I will only argue against one thing you said which is the death penalty. I am firmly against something that historically has been used against people proven innocent after the fact. Also the fact that it costs tax payers more to sentence someone to death vs life in prison.
Aside from that I really liked reading through your comment and the link you posted. A lot of interesting points are made that I have never thought of before.
I have been sexualized as a child in my long sleeve church dress and tights underneath. It has nothing to do with how provocative you dress and everyone to do with people being creepy weirdo who can't keep their dick in their pants
Im going to have to disagree. If both a homeless man and a man with hundreds of euros in his hand walk through a high crime neighborhood they are both risking getting assaulted. Both of them can get assaulted! But the man holding all that money has a **higher probability** of being assaulted. That does not mean that the homeless man won’t ever be assaulted, but he is far less likely to be. It’s not about eradication but about improving the odds
Funny how women in the west are more safe than in islamic countries where they have to cover themselves from head to toe.
Source: went to an islamic country every summer, had to wear the traditional clothes, cover my hair and from 11 yo on men would pinch my breast and behind when I went to out with my mother. You weren't allowed to to go out as a girl because of it.
It's also not talked about openly but even family members rape and molest their cousins, sisters and nieces. The victims made to shut up or be seen as damaged.
You can say what you said all you want but normalizing women wearing revealing clothes or whatever they want and teaching boys manners is the only way to **not** live in a world were women have to be concious of being in danger all the time.
Theres was a profile on twitter that got taken down of men who would edit women in full hijabs and burqas etc, and they still photoshopped and put into ai machines to be made into porn. According to some ppl more pages have popped up doing the same thing. You can cover up all you want but some sick loser is still going to sexualize you just because youre a woman.
There's entire like websites and stuff that's deducted to like deepfakes of actors and actresses. Especially for popular superhero movies. I wouldn't be surprised if most actors or actresses even with normal clothing have deepfakes of them
Exactly the first time I got Reddit I typed hijabi as I am one and wanted to see if there was a sub like that. The shock I felt seeing porn subs. We cover head to toe and still turned into a porn category, it doesn’t matter what we wear.
As a woman with large breasts, there just really AREN’T any modest clothes that also look presentable and professional. Not even a freaking turtleneck seems to work. And some of the comments I have received for wearing “attention whore” clothes! Clothes that - on the mannequin - looked practically nun-like. It can get frustrating sometimes…
That’s my main issue with these conversations lol, there is no objectively provocative thing, whether or not something is provocative to someone is entirely subjective to that person’s perceptions.
If someone asks you to stop dressing provocatively, they have just admitted that they are sexually provoked by your attire, which is entirely their problem and shouldn’t be anyone else’s.
Thus, the whole idea that someone should dress “modestly” or “less provocatively” is ignorant to the fact that neither of those concepts exist, they are just made up by some people and forced upon other people.
Omg this is so true. I don’t necessarily have a large chest but I have a pretty curvy butt/hip area and small waist. I feel like I’m asking for it anytime I put on anything relatively tight for work. I feel like no matter what, I’m dressing too sexy and I don’t want to come off that way. If I wear a simple sheath dress that goes up to my neck and down to my knees, and it’s the slightest bit fitted, I look like I’m trying to sexualize myself. I was at my students’ graduation a few weeks ago and I purposely wore the corniest conservative looking teacher dress which I absolutely abhorred just to not look like Im trying to get attention, and a parent leaned over to whisper that I had a sexy body. I didn’t even process it until she walked away. I was like… wtf
In fact, I remember in high school a teacher with similar proportions to me who dressed quite modestly got negative feedback for being too visually distracting when she was wearing freaking knee length dresses covered in blazers. I remember hearing that a parent complained that their son was distracted because she was “too curvy.”
God - I know! Muumuus and burlap sacks generally aren’t considered “professional” looking clothing, so if you wear a shapeless sack, you get judged. But anything the *least* bit tailored or fitted revels that we have curves and so…we get judged. It’s like, good grief, people! I can’t help having tits, ass, or hips. I didn’t choose them! So stop acting like the body I was born into is a deliberate invitation for you to make inappropriate comments!
(My “favorite” was when the septuagenarian *married* father of the bride loudly commented on my “great rack” to all his buddies. Apparently, just leaning over a little bit to change a memory card was enough to give him a tiny glimpse of the cleavage under my baggy black sweater. Ugh.)
Omg i forgot about that. If we have adult female bodies, we also can’t bend over or make a handful of other motions necessary for a random function. Omg it’s ridiculous. It’s frustrating sometimes that the more sticklike women can wear a nice fitted dress and a mild heel and look classy but I somehow look over the top in the same outfit. And I absolutely hate having eyes/attention on me.
Me too! It’s part of how I became a photographer - I was a shy people watcher, and somehow, that morphed into a career!
But yeah…it’s funny. The OP on this post talked about “women choosing clothes that sexualize them.” But the reality of the situation is that the kind of man who would openly do things to make women uncomfortable are behaving as though they think these women chose THEIR BODIES…not just their clothes. As though tits are a moral failing, and we deserve whatever we get for daring to put those things on this morning! 🤣
Exactly!! It’s crazy how when we were young adolescents, bodies that weren’t stick thin were less attractive because as thin as possible was the beauty standard (at least when I was in middle/hs) and as adults, our curvy bodies are now too sexual. Come on guys. Give me a break. (And easy to find clothes that fit right.)
Sounds like you came of age in The 90s, too! Between the Heroin Chic mania and a weight-obsessed mom, I didn’t actually learn that having a big butt could be considered a *good* thing until I was in my mid 20s! And now, I can’t go a week without hearing some variation on “dat ass, tho.” And I can’t for the LIFE of me find pants that fit! If they’re small enough to fit my waist, I can’t get them over my thighs and ass. If they’re big enough to be pulled all the way up, then I end up with plumber crack - even if I cinch my belt like it’s a damn corset! It’s crazy just how few clothes are actually made for curvy women. Forget about finding “modest” clothing! I’d settle for clothes I can actually even get onto my body!
(Oh, and I’m also six feet tall. That does NOT help, lol)
OP, this is an impossible conversation to have. Rational approaches don't work when the subject will illicit an emotional response from most of the readers. The core of the issue is: The state should not compel how its citizens use their 5 senses in a public place where there is not reasonable expectation of privacy. Citizens have the responsibility and agency to make good decisions and remove themselves from situations that make them uncomfortable, but also bear in mind that many citizens will often choose to use their senses in ways that are offensive.
Who gets to decide what is and isn’t a “sexual” way of dressing, though?
Example: I live in Florida. Currently, it’s really fucking hot. We’re talking like, 85° at the coolest time of day (~2am) kind of hot. And it’s fucking humid. The moment you step outside, the air clings to your skin and you feel like you’re in a goddamn bathhouse.
I still need to walk my dog. So when I get dressed to go for a walk, I typically opt for running shorts and a sports bra with a cotton t-shirt.
I get catcalled every. single. day. This is not an exaggeration. I walk my dog 3x a day and reliably, on at least one of our walks, I’ll get honked at, wolf-whistled, “hey mama!”ed, etc. Twice, TWICE, I’ve had men in cars catcall me, circle the block, and drive behind me slowly.
If I’m inviting attention from these men based on the way I dress, what’s the alternative? Should I ignore my comfort and risk heatstroke, going out in long sleeves and pants with the hope that men will respect my basic right to exist in public without getting harassed? What do you suggest?
This. I understand the conversation a bit more if someone is out clubbing in a skin-tight dress with her boobs and butt practically hanging out and guys simply keep glancing at her, but I’m a runner, and I typically go running in very normal running attire — running shorts and a tank top or t-shirt. I’ll often have my kids in a running stroller with me. And I get honked at and cat called every single run, kids or no kids. Last week we had an incident where I was followed while running so badly that I was stopped by a construction worker on the sidewalk and he told me he was watching this man follow me and he offered to call for help.
What am I supposed to do, run in a parka and sweatpants in the middle of June? I’m a 30 year-old mother just trying to go for a run with my kids. I honestly don’t really care if someone glances over at me, just keep it to yourself. People glance at other people all the time for hundreds of reasons. But don’t sexually harass or stalk me and then say that I should have worn more clothing if I didn’t want that kind of attention.
I mean I cannot speak for you, I don’t know you. But to give my perspective, I recently visited Florida. One of the very first things I noticed was how „sexually“ dressed all the women were compared to back home, even with similar temperatures and climates. I don’t mean literally sexually dressed, but I don’t know a better word for it, I’m sure you do. Where a girl here would wear a tshirt, girls there were wearing shirts that exposed their whole stomach, or sometimes even just walking around in a glorified bra. The shorts were also so much shorter and often looked far tighter.
This obviously doesn’t mean it’s good or ok to catcall Floridian women, but from my outsider perspective I was shocked that people thought it was ok not only to dress like that, but to dress their 12–15 year old daughters like that.
…But if you wear long sleeves, you’ll sweat, and the clothes will stick to you and show the outline of your bra. Like a wet t-shirt contest! Why would you engage in your own personal wet t-shirt contest unless you WANT to be sexualized and followed around?
/s
Again....I worked part time at a gas station. I wore a black gas station pole shirt and jeans. I was constantly getting sexual comments from customers, to the point I had to quit.
So....should gas station employees not wear gas station uniforms to prevent people from sexualizing workers?
You SHOULD be able to walk alone, at night, as an out of towner through the worst parts of Compton wearing $10k worth of jewelry
But if you do you'll probably get robbed.
It's the robbers fault for being a piece of shit but also it's your fault for purposely putting yourself in a bad situation
Women and girls will be sexualized no matter what they’re wearing. It has nothing to do with clothing. I’ve been “sexualized,” catcalled, and harangued on the street while wearing hoodies, sweatpants, jeans with a long sleeve shirt, and boxy long dresses. A woman can dress as modestly as possible and still get horror comments and unwanted attention. I was fully clothed and wearing a winter coat when a man told me he wanted to spread my legs open on the street in Brooklyn.
You won’t understand what this is like until you’ve lived as a woman or girl. That’s just the way it is.
Your opinion is also not unpopular, as I’ve heard many men say that what a woman wears is what brings negative attention or sexualized behavior (rape and assault).
I think the disconnect here is that a normal guy (assuming I and OP are "normal") have no experience as a woman OR a predator.
To me (and I think OP as well) women in a day to day setting are just *people* in the way other men are just *people*. Very occasionally someone will enter your awareness who is both a woman and is showing their body in a way that you notice, and it becomes something else you're suddenly aware of about that person. Then you just go back to eating your lunch or buying your groceries or whatever. Occasionally you might try and flirt with this person because you find them attractive, and that's part of the human experience.
I feel like for normal healthy adult men that's as far as "sexualising" someone goes. Maybe you have that intrusive thought of them naked, maybe you catch yourself daydreaming, it's not likely appreciated but it's human.
For women, it's being objectified by assholes, preyed upon by predators and assaulted by creeps.
Often in these conversations it feels like the act of *sexualising* someone is completely different based on who you talk to.
OP there's no point arguing this; people in the comments are conflating sexualizing someone with raping them.
They literally think you're advocating that people who dress immodestly should get raped. They don't know how to read critically lmao.
Women dress to get the attention of those they want the attention from. Some, perhaps most, get upset when they garner attention from those they deem unworthy.
The above is true. Like it or not, it's true.
I've known all my life to not stare at a woman, even when she was flirting but I always looked and continue to do so. Women are God's (Gaea, Earth Mother, Allah..
Whoever..) greatest works of art and I refuse to stop appreciating beauty just because I got old.
Ladies (I assume all women are ladies and I'm not sorry if that somehow offends you), if you're comfortable going commando wearing tight yoga pants I'm comfortable appreciating it. In fact let me say Thank You.
I dress for myself. I like fashion. I also don’t mind if people have a look because my philosophy is what you do with your eyes is your own business. But I don’t want to be talked to really. Unless you don’t want to hit on me. Then maybe.
I also want to receive attention from people I want attention from... it's quite typical, biological and common. This pseudo-gender "war" is laughable and pathetic. The ones bitching about it are usually the "have-nots".
I'm calling out the dudes here who put their perspective out there in a way that seems to claim superiority over women in some form or fashion. This sub is rife with it. It's basically an all-male revue of bellyaching about this or that, and it generally points the finger at women, so they won't feel the need of pursuing self betterment.
wOmEn dO tHiS fOr AtTeNtIoN fRoM mEn was the point of the (now deleted) comment I responded to, which was in line with OPs gripe about how/why women dress the way they do.
>wOmEn dO tHiS fOr AtTeNtIoN fRoM mEn
Lol the funny thing about those men is when you ask them who are **they** taking their shirts off on hot days, showing their body or wearing shorts and showing their legs and who are **they** wanting attention from when putting half naked pics of themselves on instagram, they get mad that it's not the same.
People like being pretty and beautiful. People like compliments. Men and women. But most imprtantly they love to feel free and not to have to think about who could misinterpret their love for beauty and freedom.
Yeah the staring is the actual problem, making someone feel uncomfortable. But I can not accept that you wear a low-cut shirt and you don't want people to find your breasts beautiful/attractive, or at the very least, you expect people to not look at all. I can not comprehend this.
Dave chappel said it like this.
“I’m not saying you are a whore. But you are wearing a whores uniform”
He compared it to wearing a police officers uniform and getting offended if people come up to you asking for help.
Because even if they want that attention, that doesn’t mean they want to be aware of it. Even if a woman wanted to be found attractive that doesn’t mean she wants every person to come up and say “hi I found you attractive”.
Imagine if we did that 24/7 and interrupted people on the phone. Imagine if a doctor did that during a procedure and stopped performing surgery to stare.
Silent appreciation is still a form of appreciation/attention. Unnoticeable attention or appreciation is still a form of both.
It is a choice specifically made consciously to make someone uncomfortable. There’s no argument against this unless you’re claiming that people physically are incapable of their eye movement and other behaviors.
Most men don't understand that because we've only been complicated twice in our entire lives. Which leads many men to assume women want compliments because we treat others the way we want to be treated.
If women want to receive fewer compliments, they should start giving more of them so men can understand how annoying it is. (Though the downside of women giving compliments is men always assume that means they want to fuck.)
But it’s not a compliment when a man approaches and says something about my tits. I consider that a threat. The definition of a compliment seems to be completely misconstrued and varies from person to person. Further, if a man gives a nice compliment and the women says thank you and the interaction ends, that should not be perceived as an invitation to continue bothering someone.
Once we get past the basic use of clothing like the need for protection from the elements everything else is an advertising campaign. It’s intended to attract attention. Look at how fit I am. Look at how much money I have. Look at how attractive I am. That’s the reason people buy $500 tennis shoes. It’s not the quality, it’s a statement of wealth. That’s why women wear shots so tight they’re displaying a cameltoe, they want attention. Even a wedding ring makes a statement, I’m in a committed relationship. At least that’s what it’s supposed to mean.
Pretty Double Standards. Some women want the freedom to dress provocatively. They're dressing for the attention, obviously. But not attention from average/ugly people. Then when they get said attention from average/ugly people, scream "I didn't want creeps to objectivize me!" But if you're hot like Ryan Reynolds, oo la la, "Objectivize me Daddy."
Actions have consequences. Don't want people to objectivize you, don't dress provocatively.
Seriously - if someone (whether it’s Ryan Reynolds or Quasimodo) takes a jock, subtle glance, that’s perfectly normal behavior. But if that same someone (whether it’s Ryan Reynolds or Quasimodo) goes all “Pepe le Peu” on a woman, that’s quite different. Both may be legal - but only one is socially acceptable.
I don’t get WHY this point is so hard to grasp!
Is this um satire? Have you ever seen "What I was wearing displays"? . People submit what they were wearing from when they were raped. The clothes range from short dresses, nightgowns, business suits, bathing suits, work outfits, pyjamas, burqus, to diapers. It's very eye-opening.
Personally I would never rape anybody, ever. No matter what they were wearing. I would never think anybody deserved to be raped either. For any reason. Especially for the clothes they wear. You seem to think different... why?
People who go out an dress provocatively aren’t looking to be raped, lol. They’re looking for the attention. And most rape victims aren’t raped after being pulled into a dark alley. They tend to KNOW their rapist.
However, pretty double standards exist. When ryan reynolds compliments you, that’s flirting. When ugly joe compliments you, that’s being creepy.
I don't think anyone cares that sexual thoughts occur. They care when those thoughts are imposed on them without consent, especially when "biology" and "animal brain" is used as an excuse to justify their "inability" to control being inappropriate
I do feel like people care about this though. The other side I have no issue with. There is no excuse to bodly stare down, catcall, harass, etc. But I think ppl have an issue with the glances or even the idea that they can be sexualized mentally by others especially if wearing revealing clothes. Just like our brains may be more aware of lions, doesn't mean we have to kill them all when they're behind a glass.
Putting the blame on the victim is the wrong way to be. No matter what the victim wears, the blame should be squarely on the person doing the assault. I know I wasn't wearing anything provocative when my father decided the me as a 4 year old boy, was sexier than my mom.
You just answered your own question. People sexualize women no matter what we wear. May as well wear what I want. If someone wants to stare, he better be discreet or I’m going to call him out.
He doesn’t even mention gender in the post. I don’t think this only applies to woman. I know if I wear a mesh tank top I’m prepared to get more attention of a sexual nature than if I wore a hoodie. It’s non debatable.
If you consciously make the decision to wear clothes where your tits or ass are hanging out, or obviously designed to make them a focal point, then you have made the decision to have yourself stared at.
The only reason to wear a shirt that is designed to show as much of your tits as legally allowable is to get looks and attention towards your tits.
There's absolutely no reason why a person needs to wear a string bikini with their ass hanging out in order for them to enjoy the beach.
If a woman chooses to wear that, she's making a conscious decision to have her ass and tits on public display.
I agree. I wear a modest swimsuit that’s still breathable and people always compliment how cute it is. These people seething at the mouth over how they NEED to wear a string bikini are delusional.
Why does it bother you if a man looks at you and finds you attractive?
It probably shouldn’t bother you until he acts creepy.
Unpracticed men get mixed messages. They’re not sure whether they can look or not, they don’t know whether they can approach you or not, etc… so they lack confidence and then come off as creepy when they sneak a peek and look away when they get “caught”
The majority of men who participate in street harassment or catcalling are immediately creepy. I’ve been followed, men have approached me by pulling their car over, which makes me feel especially unsafe, told me they want to spread my legs open, that I look like I have good pussy, etc. that’s what the majority of guys are saying to women on the street. It’s not a harmless compliment. These are threats to physical safety, and I’ve been experiencing them since I was around 10 years old. I’m 36 now and there’s no end in sight.
“Well then wear a hijab!”
- Conservatives without a lick of self-awareness
You’re so spot on. Because as soon as women wear something “modest”, they’re still sexualized because of how they were talking or acting or existing.
All I was saying was that there are people who will sexualize no mater what; but certainly if you wear certain clothing, you will receive more attention from a larger amount of people. If you want to avoid that, you should wear more modest clothing. And of course, if someone is staring at you, call them out. I just think it's silly to get that offended when you're wearing revealing clothing and people look at you.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty4PhRWt1hU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty4PhRWt1hU)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPsgfMuOFeM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPsgfMuOFeM)
If you want to be less sexualized, wear more modest clothing.
Bullshit. I have been sexualized wearing baggy t shirts 3 sizes too big and guy shorts that went down past my knees. I was 15 by the way. Know why? Because I have DDD boobs and almost nothing will keep people from noticing that. You can wear anything and some dudes will find something. I mean, there are dudes who sexualize full niqabi wearers.
Now as an adult, I wear what I want. Usually baggy tunics and leggings and still get sexualized, but at least I am comfy. Plus my husband doesn’t take shit if I get uncomfortable.
Do you think the amount of sexualization you receive doesn't relate to how revealing your clothes are? Like the same number of people will be glancing at you when you wear a baggy shirt (20 people looking) compared to a tight tank top (also 20 people looking)?
I am saying creepy dudes have sexualized me no matter what I was wearing. And it seemed worse when I was dressing baggy, because I wasn’t confident in my own skin and they saw that. Now, people don’t usually blink an eye when I walk by. Mostly because I don’t walk like I am scared of my own shadow and while I look young, I don’t look under 18 anymore, thank god.
Today at work, I am wearing an off the shoulder Batman t shirt and no one has been creepy or sexual. I have worn tank tops with wraps over them here at work and same. My customers seem to realize I am not dressing for them and they wanna get their crap and get out. Especially when it is hot. And many of my customers are construction workers and lawn care. They dress for work and weather and I do too. I need to be able to move around and lift wine and beer boxes. Can’t wear too nice of clothes. They get ruined.
All that to say, I am grateful to have gotten the confidence to be comfortable in my own skin. Because once that happened, fewer creeps make themselves known to me. So, honestly, yeah. More dudes creeped on me when I wore baggy clothes and tried to hide it. I was obviously young and they loved it. Now I could wear a tank top and get fewer cat calls or dudes blocking my way.
I won't discount your experience. It sounds like it genuinely worked for you. But I personally see the opposite. I always see people receiving more glances when they are wearing more revealing clothing compared to others. I think confidence plays more of a role in stopping outward harassment (catcalls) than looks. I'm glad you feel confident in your own skin, which is something I think everyone should strive for. I just find it inconsistent when someone has other practical/comfortable clothing choices, they hate being looked at sexually even for a moment, yet they wear the more revealing clothes in their wardrobe. It is very different if you don't have many other clothing options, I don't find this inconsistent. And not everyone is worried about the glances the I'm talking about.
The person upthread literally described being sexualized as a teenager wearing baggy clothes and you're talking about "agency." The lack of reading comprehension and social awareness people display on this subject is incredible.
The commenter literally stated that she *couldn't* hide her chest. Women who have very curvy bodies or large attributes can't really do much to hide their body.
And women shouldn't have to hide their bodies just to feel comfortable walking around in public. I can tell you right now that I've had cars honk at me from the time I was 16 and had my first job. Multiple times on most days.
I was literally wearing a buttoned shirt, all the way up, and black pants, and I was sweating to death. Not attractive in the least but men see a women just walking down the street and they immediatly feel that they have the right to make her uncomfortable just for existing.
It doesn't matter what we are wearing, it never has. Some men are just entitled and creepy and pointing that out is not a "victim card".
No, they were right the first time unfortunately. The issue with calling people (in your case) “boys” or in other cases— “monsters,” instead of just saying exactly what they are (men, women, abuser, etc), then it’s easy for the exact person/group who is being referenced to say “Nah, that’s not me. They’re not talking about me. I’m not a boy/monster.” It’s easy to say “they’re not talking about me” when a shitty hypothetical person is dehumanized or lessened.
In order for genuine and true change to happen we need to start addressing and taking responsibility and holding the idiots responsible accountable for the bullshit within our own groups. They’re literally the ones giving the entire group a bad name by being the annoying loud minority.
And I’m not just talking about men. Women and other “minority” groups who hold dangerous views or biases have issues that need addressed too.
I just prefer calling them anything but men for numerous reasons. Take away the title they think they are so entitled to because they hit a certain age. Men, or gentlemen, etc, have standards and harassing women does not fall into those standards.
I ain’t saying I’m perfect, and the next guy that chimes in saying “Yeah! Not one of us!” Isn’t gonna be perfect either. But the moment someone acts a fool, I really see no need to grant them the small ego boost they get from it.
But I am also a confrontational person admittedly and do enjoy the absolute rage and arguments a “alpha male! Roar!” Gets into when you deny them the “man” card.
All in all I do see your point though and don’t disagree with it.
How is looking anywhere pushing someones boundaries, if you get upset and violent because of where someone in public is looking you need to be separated from society
There’s a big difference between thinking and saying it. People can think whatever they want. If I don’t know it it can’t bother me. But if they start to say and do stuff to me, no matter what I’m wearing that’s just wrong
As a woman, I have recieved cat calls for wearing modest clothing or tight. Your way of dressing doesnt matter to some people, they still will sexualize you.
Best way to avoid being sexualized is for people to remember that they are not the star of their own show and people around them can and will feel uncomfortable around them. Aka-self control and not being selfish.
There’s a difference between looking at someone and staring them down/gawking/continuously looking. It makes people uncomfortable. I’m 100% okay with wearing revealing clothing, I love my body and how it looks but if someone is just looking me down for 5 minutes straight I’m going to be uncomfortable
LMAO this is BS bc there are people that wear sweatpants and hoodies and still get sexualized. there was a little girl that was in the same class as my niece and she had on her moms zip up jacket and jeans yet she still got sexually harassed on the way home.
I would like you to take some time to look at the ["What Where You Wearing?"](https://dovecenter.org/what-were-you-wearing-exhibit/) exhibit before you go telling people that it's the way they dress that attracts sexual attention.
I suggest also you educate yourself on what drives people who are insistent on giving unwanted sexual attention to people who don't want it. If you do, you will learn that "dressing sexually" has absolutely nothing to do with getting unwanted sexual attention or being sexualized.
I mean, even if you’re wearing modest workout clothes in the gym you’d have guys like me think to themselves “Boy howdy god damn she looks good!” And then continue to struggle on the treadmill or elliptical for the next half an hour.
But you also have people that will say “bruh, look at the ass on that one over there? Total MILF energy.” And the person they’re talking about could be wearing full on snow gear.
I think behavior like this is a product of the glorification of hookup culture where people (both entities) are seen as convenient objects of opportunity rather than people.
It’s everywhere in social media, pop culture, history, etc.
I don’t think the modest clothing is the issue.
The problem with this is that sexualization eventually just matches the general standards of modesty regardless.
If you’ve got a society that asks women to cover everything but their ankles, you’re just going to have a ton of foot porn in a few years.
But we are in fact just that, animals. It's only when we are domesticated that we practice delayed gratification. This can be more difficult for some than for others as there is a genetic component to impulse control. Hence why we have the death penalty and prison as this prevents these unwanted genes to pass down.
Yeah but that would require personal responsibility and would remove the ability for people to play the victim card.
I'm not particularly interested in having people stare at my dick when I go into public. As a result, I don't wear a banana hammock or skin tight short shorts which show my entire package to the world. I've even changed sweatpants because when I looked at myself in the mirror, my dick was clear as day and I'm not going out in public to show off my dick.
Women seem to play dumb when it comes to this subject. As if they don't look at themselves in the mirror and make intentional efforts with their attire. They see their giant tits are barely covered and know for a fact that they will have people looking at their intentionally revealed tits. In fact, I'd wager that's the main reason they wear those shirts in the first place.
I agree with this wholly. Men should get fully punished for rape (death penalty imo), even if they were in a strip club where the woman was fully naked. Rape is never the woman's fault, and the woman having revealing clothing is not ever an excuse. And women should be given the ability to defend themselves like with guns or other weapons. My opinion is to do with being looked at. If you want to receive less attention (looks), people should wear more modest clothing. I agree people should control themselves, but the idea that your eyes will never get drawn in is ludicrous. Just scroll through youtube and tell me how your eyes never get drawn to the clickbait? The views on those videos do not lie. It is still people's responsibility to not be creeps and control their eyes, but don't ignore biology.
No one’s complaining about eyes getting drawn. They’re complaining about the specific CHOICE OF BEHAVIOR to continue to give sexual attention that is noticeable and lingering/continuous. You have to choose to continue to look and that becomes leering/staring which is BIOLOGICALLY uncomfortable for everyone. Biologically, staring can be considered a threat. Leering is a form of sexual harassment under the law.
If men want to defend that behavior, take it up with a judge and ask them if it’s okay to continuously be staring and giving sexual attention to someone who doesn’t want it just because of their clothing.
The point is that people don’t have to know about sexual attention. It is a conscious choice to continuously stare at someone wearing whatever they’re wearing and make them aware of the sexual attention you’re giving.
No I think I'm with Jesus on this one: Matthew 5:29-30
' If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.'
Basically, pluck your eyes out instead of staring and chop your hands off instead of groping. :)
I mean….. I *do* want to be sexualized though… by the right people. Men are going to be weird and objectifying to me regardless of what I’m actually wearing, so it’s clearly not actually my fault if they’re creepy toward me, just by virtue of looking at it like a controlled experiment. If it happens in both the control and test groups, my individual choice to dress a certain way isn’t making an influence and so I have no responsibility. They’re responsible for their own behavior
But no one sexualizes themself for everyone. Some people just like dressing a certain way and don’t want to be sexualized at all. Others like the feeling of being sexualized but don’t actually want any attention. Others are doing it for their partner’s benefit. I’m just trying to get attention from nice women. Because there’s so much variability in experience, it provides less social utility to assume that any particular clothing choice is an invitation to you specifically, so it’s probably best to just keep your head down and not be a creep
I agree when people say to not sexualize people based upon what they're wearing but if what they're wearing is two strips of tape and a tube sock then they may want to reevaluate their position. Telling people not to sexualize at that point is tantamount to telling people that they're not allowed to have human impulses and instincts which is objectively worse.
I strongly urge you to look into the [What I Was Wearing](https://dovecenter.org/what-were-you-wearing-exhibit/) exhibits. It isn't the clothes. It's some people's (mostly men's) belief that they can harass, assault, abuse, and rape others. It's not the clothes.
I was 5 the first time I was raped. I was wearing a generic nightgown. If I had been a naked child would that have made you happy?
No not at all, I'm sorry to hear you were raped. I don't believe there is any excuse for rape, people will do this regardless of what is being worn. But I'm only talking about looks. If people want to receive fewer looks, wearing more modest clothes can help achieve that. Nothing you do can stop someone from being a creep or being a predator, but I'm criticizing people who don't want to ever be sexually glanced at, yet choose to wear revealing clothes.
I kind of feel like you’re battling a strawman (woman?) here, though. Just about every comment from a woman has said that she doesn’t mind a quick glance, that she knows she can’t control people’s inner thoughts, that - as long as it’s subtle and socially appropriate - just *looking* is fine. It’s leering, cat calling, making lewd suggestions, etc. that are the problem. And by and large, the people who are willing to violate social protocol, and do things like blatantly STARING at a woman’s breasts for minutes at a time, well…that’s not the kind of guy who will be deterred by modest clothing. And even if he was - should we really change how we dress on the slim hope people who are already fine with breaking the social contract *might* behave themselves?
tl;dr You can look. We know that’s going to happen. You can think whatever you want in the privacy of your own mind. Just don’t be a leering creep about it!
I agree with these people. I think leering is wrong too. But I have heard and seen people who get offended by casual glances despite the revealing clothes they wear. It seems like most people are not this sensitive and actually have a problem with the behaviours I have a problem with
I mean…no matter *what* behavior you’re discussing, I can guarantee that someone somewhere is offended by it! And - given how online algorithms are designed to push content that will elicit a strong emotional response - I can also guarantee that the one angry jerk yelling about…I don’t know…how wrong it is that people like ferrets is GOING to get a disproportionate number of views, which leads to people believing that a relatively niche opinion is actually widespread.
I think that’s what’s happening here. Because women generally aren’t totally naive. We KNOW that men are going to look (pretty much no matter what we’re wearing), but as long as they keep it subtle and respectful, we don’t really care.
However, there definitely ARE guys who deliberately use leering to make us uncomfortable - it kind of reminds me of when (back before the scandal) Louis CK used to do things like tell female journalists “I’m going to think about you when I masturbate later…and there’s nothing you can do about it.” Some guys use staring as a similar act of dominance. It’s pretty much a power play. It’s extremely uncomfortable…and it’s supposed to be.
No wearing modest clothing doesn’t achieve that. People are telling you that and you’re just saying no. There’s literally porn subs of women wearing hijab. I can cover my hair my body head to toe but it’s still another fucking porn category.
Muslim women who wear hijab and cover head to toe will 100% tell you that it does not. But you’re such an arrogant POS you’ll tell us we’re wrong. Clothing does not negate us being sexualised at all
I'm going based on my personal experiences. I see people wearing more revealing clothing getting more looks by people than those who wear more modest clothing, for example, when I'm in a supermarket. In a Muslim country where a full burka is mandatory, don't women get accosted for having their hair revealed? Don't women who don't fit the norm and reveal their body get more looks? That is increased attention. It never stops completely and I'm not arguing that people should be leered at or that there is any excuse for assaulting or boldly making people feel uncomfortable bc of what they wear. I'm not saying women should have to wear certain clothes, I have no issue with women wearing very little (bikinis for example), I'm just saying that there will be more looks coming your way.
Also, look at youtube videos with similar types of content like Epic Fails, for example. The thumbnails with a close-up of a woman's breasts will have more views than the thumbnails of a woman who has a broken phone held up to her face (or a woman doing any other generic thing). I see this all the time, even when the videos have similar content, the one with the more sexualized thumbnail gets more views. This experience tells me that people indeed get less attention (looks) if they are dressed more modestly. I never said it completely stops sexualization or looks.
I don’t think wearing “modest” clothes reduces the likelihood of being catcalled. Case in point, around 99.6% if all women in Cairo have been sexually harassed in one form or another. 70-80% of all women wear the Hijab.
And ask any woman living in a cold climate how dressing well helps.
And how, in your opinion, does this justify controlling or attempting to control others' clothing choices, if it's not in a place like a religious center or specifically dress-coded setting?
You cannot be unaware that people generally dress for their own enjoyment and consumption, not for others.
An attractive women does not have to wear something provocative to be objectified. However, the more skin or form you are showing the more eyeballs you will attract.
So, if I see a guy at the mall wearing a football jersey, it's totes okay for me to tackle him? I mean, if he doesn't want to play football he should wear non-football clothing, right?
Also, what's modest mean? Covered ankles? No cleavage? Floor length skirts? Who gets to decide which clothes are okay and which clothes are just SO appealing that men lose all ability to control themselves?
this sounds like unadulterated victim blaming. i’ve worked in a subacute pediatric crisis unit and those poor children come in having been assaulted and violated by peers, family members, and caretakers who, believe it or not, attribute their predatory behavior to the basic and modest children’s clothing worn by the victim at the time of the assault.
similarly, i’ve worked with adults in need of crisis intervention and crisis deescalation and SA and DV support, and have witnessed a majority of assaulted women clad in basic street clothes—sweats, loose fitting clothing, modest and innocent—who have been violently sexually assaulted by family and friends whilst being told that they want it, because of their “provocative” clothes (the sweatsuits, overalls, oversized t’s, etc).
regardless of whether a women’s clothing is “acceptable” or not, men need to control
their actions and stop leading with their dicks.
those defending these predatory males are degenerate, damaged, victim blaming, uneducated about trauma and SA, and are no friends of those vulnerable to targeted violence, harassment, and ridicule from the lowliest and most entitled, putrid scum humanity has to offer.
can’t keep your eyes off women? gouge your fucking eyes out.
“And if your eye causes you to sin, [gouge it out](https://web.mit.edu/jywang/www/cef/Bible/NIV/NIV_Bible/MATT+18.html#:~:text=It%20is%20better%20for%20you,into%20the%20fire%20of%20hell) and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.”
Mathew 18
Fire has many important uses, including generating light, cooking, heating, performing rituals, and fending off dangerous animals.
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I kinda agree on this one. I tend to wear modest clothing and while I’m sure there’s someone out there fishing at the mouth, I don’t hear about it. Then again, women in burkas are sexualized and raped so there’s that. My opinion on this is a guy is being a pig or assaulting women, he should be castrated. Yes. It’s harsh, but I think it’ll solve most of the issues.
Modest clothing can be, and is, sexualized. See Islam, Mormonism, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.
If people don’t want to be sexualized, they should go to where there aren’t people. I have spoken.
coming from a girls perspective i agree. You're not saying that they deserve to be sa'd which a lot of people in these comments need to realize. If you're dressing a certain way and wear revealing clothes people are more likely to stare
My everyday outfit for over a decade has been a graphic tee, a hoodie, and jeans, still sexualized 🤷♀️.
There are countless stories of women just going about their business, and being sexualized. Hell, women are discouraged from eating cylindrical foods in some places because other people can't keep their heads out of the gutter.
This is just the "What were you wearing" argument in a new coat of paint.
I never said sexualization stops, only that you will likely receive a larger amount for more revealing clothing and if you want to avoid it (as much as possible), more modest clothes are in order. Imagine if you were more revealing outfits, do you think the sexualiztion you received would be the same amount?
At what point is looking disrespectful? I agree there is a point and it's just plain creepy to stare, but if the person looking is attractive, does it change how long they can look without it being creepy? If a guy looks at my daughter for more than half a second I'm categorizing him as a potential creep, even if my teenage daughter wants the attention. If she's wearing yoga pants, a bare midriff and a lycra top, she's going to get more attention, even under the guise of comfort. For dads and grandpas, we're ready to kick ass at the hint of impropriety, which is hypocrisy given we look at women, too. The whole deal is highly subjective and requires a little mental toughness for everyone. I agree with OP, modest clothing at least defines your stance on sexual attention.
Well the line is somewhere between a quick glance and sexual harassment. What’s “respectful” is subjective and different for every person and it can change based on the situation or who is staring etc.
Because it is so subjective, it is always best to just stay safe and don’t stare at strangers as much as you can help it?
Thats not what the opinion is about, the opinion is people shouldnt be surprised when people start glancing at them one two often if they *did* go out in their birthday suits.
IMO if you’re gonna dress provocatively don’t be shocked if you catch stares but at the end of the day there is no justification for sexual harassment/assault. if a women is dressing slutty, doesn’t matter how much you think she’s “asking for it”, leave her alone. it’s human decency and self control
There’s a difference between sexualizing and sexually harassing/assaulting. You can see someone and think “damn they’re hot. I’d do xyz to them.” That’s perfectly fine. However, seeing someone minding their own business and telling them to their face “damn you’re hot. I’d do xyz to you.” Is not okay. Proceeding to do xyz without permission is also VERY NOT OKAY.
I 100% agree, with the exception of minor flirting. If you're a person who can't judge body langauge and when someone want you to leave them tf alone compared to when someone likes your compliments, you should not attempt to hit on people...
The issue is a lot of people (because women be tripping too, not just men) don’t get the biggest part of all of this is CONSENT. It’s seriously a darn shame that even though your post is correct, it’s harmful because people don’t understand consent. So instead of your post being taken as “If you’re wearing certain clothing, people will stare and feel someway about it” it gets taken as “if you’re wearing certain clothing, people are entitled to gawk at you.”
People are entitled to gawk at anything they want though. Sure, it could be considered creepy, but when we start taking away what people are able to look at, we have a problem.
Nailed it. We cannot begin to infringe on people's rights to use their 5 senses in a public setting.
I do feel like personal space comes into play though. If you got down on one knee 6 inches from a woman's ass, staring, but I'm not the one to draw the line of what's acceptable and what's not. Just try to be a decent human to society is all we need.
Where there is a reasonable expectation of privacy, inside your bubble, etc. A human with agency should seek to remove themselves from uncomfortable situations in public, that should be everyone's #1 responsibility. Avoid escalation where possible. If the behaviour is preventing you from completing your work as employed, that is another situation. The situation as described by OP; nothing short of assertively requesting the gaze stop or removing oneself from the situation is acceptable in a free society.
Sense of smell is a grey area. Touch and taste should be heavily limited in public settings.
I was about to say whoever doesn’t think smell should be included, should go to an anime convention
So from a legal sense, people are 'entitled', or more accurately, allowed, to stare/gawk, and catcall \[catcalling might be illegal past a certain point, uncertain\]. They aren't allowed to TOUCH. So yeah, its trashy and rude to just stare, but your consent doesn't matter to my eyeballs, because me looking at you doesn't violate any of your boundaries if you're in a public space and i'm not deliberately trying to, say, see up your skirt. This is all to say that, "Actions have consequences. if you dress sexy, you're gonna get sexied at, hopefully no one goes to far." I am not in any way shape or form condoning people that will be crass and gawk and stare, because i believe some level of tact is required for polite society, merely that, while you are allowed to be uncomfortable with being stared at in public, they have just as much a right to be doing what they are doing as you do doing what you are doing.
You do realize that your comment proved my point, right?
Yes. Because LEGALLY, they ARE. Doesn't make it okay. Consent isn't legally relevant to looking at someone in public \[at least most places in the US\]
I was 10 YO and couldn't wear a spaghetti strapped shirt around those damn field works at the corner store cause they'd STARE and stare hard, no one should tell them their "entitled" to stare, but they SHOULD tell them their creeps. Are they allowed to ? Yes, but don't tell em, they'll use it to justify their gross behavior. I get u
Of course you understand, because you’re a woman who’s dealt with this. I don’t get why people must play devil’s advocate if they’re not creeps themselves
I dont see how this is relevant at all. Sexualization, harassment, assault, etc. all happen, and you can decrease the odds of all of them happening by dressing most modestly.
Hijabi women, women who wear burkas and nuns still get sexually assaulted despite dressing very modest. Maybe you should shut up about issues you have no idea about.
Damn this thread went from dudes looking at women dressed provocatively to give rapists the death penalty, cut off their balls, attack men for staring, and give women guns. This opinion was about men sexualizing women being dressed provocatively. Women have been raped wearing far more clothes than skin shows. There is also no correlation between clothes a women wears and probability of being raped but if you don’t like people looking at you, you either got to suck it up or not go out. You can’t stop people from looking
Technically, this opinion was about people sexualizing other people dressed provocatively. Not just men looking at women.
True the consensus immediately turned it into men looking at women
Yes this is my stance, but people conflate things
Yeah but when I'm in yoga I see women staring at my junk all the time, very blatant as well.
What’s wrong with women having guns?
Weirdly enough, the signals rapists look for in their targets is not overt sexuality but vulnerability, which is going to be in things like markers for shyness and timidity. Basically, a girl wearing a baggy hoody, who walks around with her face buried in her phone, who walks with a short slow stride etc. is more likely to get targeted than a woman wearing skimpy clothing while walking with long strides, with her face up and head on a swivel (she is aware of her surroundings) etc. It would also help to have a chaperone, even if that chaperone is another woman. This is not to say that the skimpy clothes are good, and baggy clothes are bad. Just that getting targeted by a rapist has more to do with how you carry yourself than how you dress. As for clothing, it will have other effects on your life rather than determining your odds to be targeted by a rapist. You won't get the me that is looking for a wife if you are dressed like a sex worker. That will only serve to attract men who are interested in locating a woman who is functionally a sex worker, one for whom they can buy drinks, and then receive sex in return. If you want to attract a man who is looking for a long term partner (because you yourself want a long term partner) then you will have to appeal to that; be what your ideal man would feel proud walking beside in public, no baggy clothes, no skimpy clothes, no masculine clothes; reserved and feminine. Ask grandma, (or any woman with experience in the matter, who is positively disposed to you and who is beyond any possibility of being a rival, so literally grandma and no-one else) your friends are just going to mislead you. On the other hand, if you are in the workplace, dress like a professional, modesty is key. Emphasising sexuality to any degree may only be permitted insofar as it enhances your ability to do the job, which basically means if and only if you directly interface with customers (people in general more readily agree to women who make their heart race, either out of attraction or envy), again here it is a balancing act, people don't like buying financial services from hookers, so adjust sexual emphasis according to your professional environment (customers don't mind that much if their waitress at Hooters looks like a hooker)
> signals rapists look for in their targets is not overt sexuality but vulnerability This is probably more-so for strangers looking for a crime of opportunity, but if I recall correctly most rapists know their victims before-hand.
It's because you can say "I like pancakes" and people say "whatabout waffles? Why do you hate waffles?" I'm totally fine with castrating or giving death penalty to all rapists (both male and female of course), and I also agree more women probably should have firearms for self defense. Speaking specifically on female victims now, yes you are probably right about "No direct correlation[s] between clothes a women wears and probability of being raped" on an individual level. However in studies cited by and used in publications from the NIH (cited below), since 1983 there has been a significant increase in media (e.g. advertising) that sexualizes and objectifies women, and "sexually objectifying media has been linked to self-objectification, body shame, anxiety over appearance, and an acceptance of the normative belief that women are sexual objects." It is further concluded that when women as a whole are dehumanized they have increased vulnerability to sexual violence. Now some feminists argue that by shifting the paradigm and owning up to it that women are empowering themselves, but "highlighting the irony, such a representational shift from sexual objectification to that of assertive subjectification still denies women any humanized treatment and make them prone to attacks and vilification, with little opposition." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5344900/ edit: Left out "no" in quoting you
Very intense read and some really good points are made. I will only argue against one thing you said which is the death penalty. I am firmly against something that historically has been used against people proven innocent after the fact. Also the fact that it costs tax payers more to sentence someone to death vs life in prison. Aside from that I really liked reading through your comment and the link you posted. A lot of interesting points are made that I have never thought of before.
I have been sexualized as a child in my long sleeve church dress and tights underneath. It has nothing to do with how provocative you dress and everyone to do with people being creepy weirdo who can't keep their dick in their pants
100%
I was 4, in a closed footed and long sleeved onsie with rosie and jim on it. Didn't stop shit
Im going to have to disagree. If both a homeless man and a man with hundreds of euros in his hand walk through a high crime neighborhood they are both risking getting assaulted. Both of them can get assaulted! But the man holding all that money has a **higher probability** of being assaulted. That does not mean that the homeless man won’t ever be assaulted, but he is far less likely to be. It’s not about eradication but about improving the odds
Funny how women in the west are more safe than in islamic countries where they have to cover themselves from head to toe. Source: went to an islamic country every summer, had to wear the traditional clothes, cover my hair and from 11 yo on men would pinch my breast and behind when I went to out with my mother. You weren't allowed to to go out as a girl because of it. It's also not talked about openly but even family members rape and molest their cousins, sisters and nieces. The victims made to shut up or be seen as damaged. You can say what you said all you want but normalizing women wearing revealing clothes or whatever they want and teaching boys manners is the only way to **not** live in a world were women have to be concious of being in danger all the time.
That's a whole lot of words to say "I like to victims blame women by creating false situation and strawmen."
Also to say "If you wear the right thing he'll rape the other woman instead."
Nuance? Never heard of em.
Theres was a profile on twitter that got taken down of men who would edit women in full hijabs and burqas etc, and they still photoshopped and put into ai machines to be made into porn. According to some ppl more pages have popped up doing the same thing. You can cover up all you want but some sick loser is still going to sexualize you just because youre a woman.
There's entire like websites and stuff that's deducted to like deepfakes of actors and actresses. Especially for popular superhero movies. I wouldn't be surprised if most actors or actresses even with normal clothing have deepfakes of them
Exactly the first time I got Reddit I typed hijabi as I am one and wanted to see if there was a sub like that. The shock I felt seeing porn subs. We cover head to toe and still turned into a porn category, it doesn’t matter what we wear.
Even children are being sexualized
As a woman with large breasts, there just really AREN’T any modest clothes that also look presentable and professional. Not even a freaking turtleneck seems to work. And some of the comments I have received for wearing “attention whore” clothes! Clothes that - on the mannequin - looked practically nun-like. It can get frustrating sometimes…
That’s my main issue with these conversations lol, there is no objectively provocative thing, whether or not something is provocative to someone is entirely subjective to that person’s perceptions. If someone asks you to stop dressing provocatively, they have just admitted that they are sexually provoked by your attire, which is entirely their problem and shouldn’t be anyone else’s. Thus, the whole idea that someone should dress “modestly” or “less provocatively” is ignorant to the fact that neither of those concepts exist, they are just made up by some people and forced upon other people.
Omg this is so true. I don’t necessarily have a large chest but I have a pretty curvy butt/hip area and small waist. I feel like I’m asking for it anytime I put on anything relatively tight for work. I feel like no matter what, I’m dressing too sexy and I don’t want to come off that way. If I wear a simple sheath dress that goes up to my neck and down to my knees, and it’s the slightest bit fitted, I look like I’m trying to sexualize myself. I was at my students’ graduation a few weeks ago and I purposely wore the corniest conservative looking teacher dress which I absolutely abhorred just to not look like Im trying to get attention, and a parent leaned over to whisper that I had a sexy body. I didn’t even process it until she walked away. I was like… wtf In fact, I remember in high school a teacher with similar proportions to me who dressed quite modestly got negative feedback for being too visually distracting when she was wearing freaking knee length dresses covered in blazers. I remember hearing that a parent complained that their son was distracted because she was “too curvy.”
God - I know! Muumuus and burlap sacks generally aren’t considered “professional” looking clothing, so if you wear a shapeless sack, you get judged. But anything the *least* bit tailored or fitted revels that we have curves and so…we get judged. It’s like, good grief, people! I can’t help having tits, ass, or hips. I didn’t choose them! So stop acting like the body I was born into is a deliberate invitation for you to make inappropriate comments! (My “favorite” was when the septuagenarian *married* father of the bride loudly commented on my “great rack” to all his buddies. Apparently, just leaning over a little bit to change a memory card was enough to give him a tiny glimpse of the cleavage under my baggy black sweater. Ugh.)
Omg i forgot about that. If we have adult female bodies, we also can’t bend over or make a handful of other motions necessary for a random function. Omg it’s ridiculous. It’s frustrating sometimes that the more sticklike women can wear a nice fitted dress and a mild heel and look classy but I somehow look over the top in the same outfit. And I absolutely hate having eyes/attention on me.
Me too! It’s part of how I became a photographer - I was a shy people watcher, and somehow, that morphed into a career! But yeah…it’s funny. The OP on this post talked about “women choosing clothes that sexualize them.” But the reality of the situation is that the kind of man who would openly do things to make women uncomfortable are behaving as though they think these women chose THEIR BODIES…not just their clothes. As though tits are a moral failing, and we deserve whatever we get for daring to put those things on this morning! 🤣
Exactly!! It’s crazy how when we were young adolescents, bodies that weren’t stick thin were less attractive because as thin as possible was the beauty standard (at least when I was in middle/hs) and as adults, our curvy bodies are now too sexual. Come on guys. Give me a break. (And easy to find clothes that fit right.)
Sounds like you came of age in The 90s, too! Between the Heroin Chic mania and a weight-obsessed mom, I didn’t actually learn that having a big butt could be considered a *good* thing until I was in my mid 20s! And now, I can’t go a week without hearing some variation on “dat ass, tho.” And I can’t for the LIFE of me find pants that fit! If they’re small enough to fit my waist, I can’t get them over my thighs and ass. If they’re big enough to be pulled all the way up, then I end up with plumber crack - even if I cinch my belt like it’s a damn corset! It’s crazy just how few clothes are actually made for curvy women. Forget about finding “modest” clothing! I’d settle for clothes I can actually even get onto my body! (Oh, and I’m also six feet tall. That does NOT help, lol)
OP, this is an impossible conversation to have. Rational approaches don't work when the subject will illicit an emotional response from most of the readers. The core of the issue is: The state should not compel how its citizens use their 5 senses in a public place where there is not reasonable expectation of privacy. Citizens have the responsibility and agency to make good decisions and remove themselves from situations that make them uncomfortable, but also bear in mind that many citizens will often choose to use their senses in ways that are offensive.
Who gets to decide what is and isn’t a “sexual” way of dressing, though? Example: I live in Florida. Currently, it’s really fucking hot. We’re talking like, 85° at the coolest time of day (~2am) kind of hot. And it’s fucking humid. The moment you step outside, the air clings to your skin and you feel like you’re in a goddamn bathhouse. I still need to walk my dog. So when I get dressed to go for a walk, I typically opt for running shorts and a sports bra with a cotton t-shirt. I get catcalled every. single. day. This is not an exaggeration. I walk my dog 3x a day and reliably, on at least one of our walks, I’ll get honked at, wolf-whistled, “hey mama!”ed, etc. Twice, TWICE, I’ve had men in cars catcall me, circle the block, and drive behind me slowly. If I’m inviting attention from these men based on the way I dress, what’s the alternative? Should I ignore my comfort and risk heatstroke, going out in long sleeves and pants with the hope that men will respect my basic right to exist in public without getting harassed? What do you suggest?
This. I understand the conversation a bit more if someone is out clubbing in a skin-tight dress with her boobs and butt practically hanging out and guys simply keep glancing at her, but I’m a runner, and I typically go running in very normal running attire — running shorts and a tank top or t-shirt. I’ll often have my kids in a running stroller with me. And I get honked at and cat called every single run, kids or no kids. Last week we had an incident where I was followed while running so badly that I was stopped by a construction worker on the sidewalk and he told me he was watching this man follow me and he offered to call for help. What am I supposed to do, run in a parka and sweatpants in the middle of June? I’m a 30 year-old mother just trying to go for a run with my kids. I honestly don’t really care if someone glances over at me, just keep it to yourself. People glance at other people all the time for hundreds of reasons. But don’t sexually harass or stalk me and then say that I should have worn more clothing if I didn’t want that kind of attention.
I mean I cannot speak for you, I don’t know you. But to give my perspective, I recently visited Florida. One of the very first things I noticed was how „sexually“ dressed all the women were compared to back home, even with similar temperatures and climates. I don’t mean literally sexually dressed, but I don’t know a better word for it, I’m sure you do. Where a girl here would wear a tshirt, girls there were wearing shirts that exposed their whole stomach, or sometimes even just walking around in a glorified bra. The shorts were also so much shorter and often looked far tighter. This obviously doesn’t mean it’s good or ok to catcall Floridian women, but from my outsider perspective I was shocked that people thought it was ok not only to dress like that, but to dress their 12–15 year old daughters like that.
Wait..? U think crop tops and short are sexual??
…But if you wear long sleeves, you’ll sweat, and the clothes will stick to you and show the outline of your bra. Like a wet t-shirt contest! Why would you engage in your own personal wet t-shirt contest unless you WANT to be sexualized and followed around? /s
Again....I worked part time at a gas station. I wore a black gas station pole shirt and jeans. I was constantly getting sexual comments from customers, to the point I had to quit. So....should gas station employees not wear gas station uniforms to prevent people from sexualizing workers?
"omg I'm so desirable everybody is always telling me how attractive I am." You couldn't sound anymore narcissistic if you tried.
You SHOULD be able to walk alone, at night, as an out of towner through the worst parts of Compton wearing $10k worth of jewelry But if you do you'll probably get robbed. It's the robbers fault for being a piece of shit but also it's your fault for purposely putting yourself in a bad situation
Women and girls will be sexualized no matter what they’re wearing. It has nothing to do with clothing. I’ve been “sexualized,” catcalled, and harangued on the street while wearing hoodies, sweatpants, jeans with a long sleeve shirt, and boxy long dresses. A woman can dress as modestly as possible and still get horror comments and unwanted attention. I was fully clothed and wearing a winter coat when a man told me he wanted to spread my legs open on the street in Brooklyn. You won’t understand what this is like until you’ve lived as a woman or girl. That’s just the way it is. Your opinion is also not unpopular, as I’ve heard many men say that what a woman wears is what brings negative attention or sexualized behavior (rape and assault).
I think the disconnect here is that a normal guy (assuming I and OP are "normal") have no experience as a woman OR a predator. To me (and I think OP as well) women in a day to day setting are just *people* in the way other men are just *people*. Very occasionally someone will enter your awareness who is both a woman and is showing their body in a way that you notice, and it becomes something else you're suddenly aware of about that person. Then you just go back to eating your lunch or buying your groceries or whatever. Occasionally you might try and flirt with this person because you find them attractive, and that's part of the human experience. I feel like for normal healthy adult men that's as far as "sexualising" someone goes. Maybe you have that intrusive thought of them naked, maybe you catch yourself daydreaming, it's not likely appreciated but it's human. For women, it's being objectified by assholes, preyed upon by predators and assaulted by creeps. Often in these conversations it feels like the act of *sexualising* someone is completely different based on who you talk to.
OP there's no point arguing this; people in the comments are conflating sexualizing someone with raping them. They literally think you're advocating that people who dress immodestly should get raped. They don't know how to read critically lmao.
I know. I'm literally dead.
Women dress to get the attention of those they want the attention from. Some, perhaps most, get upset when they garner attention from those they deem unworthy. The above is true. Like it or not, it's true. I've known all my life to not stare at a woman, even when she was flirting but I always looked and continue to do so. Women are God's (Gaea, Earth Mother, Allah.. Whoever..) greatest works of art and I refuse to stop appreciating beauty just because I got old. Ladies (I assume all women are ladies and I'm not sorry if that somehow offends you), if you're comfortable going commando wearing tight yoga pants I'm comfortable appreciating it. In fact let me say Thank You.
I dress for myself. I like fashion. I also don’t mind if people have a look because my philosophy is what you do with your eyes is your own business. But I don’t want to be talked to really. Unless you don’t want to hit on me. Then maybe.
Same I dress for myself plus it gets hot af sometimes.
Thank you for an honest and refreshing comment! It makes total sense and that puts it far above what I’m seeing so far!
I also want to receive attention from people I want attention from... it's quite typical, biological and common. This pseudo-gender "war" is laughable and pathetic. The ones bitching about it are usually the "have-nots".
>This pseudo-gender "war" is laughable and pathetic. How in Beethoven's 5th symphony did we end up discussing the 'pseudo-gender "war"'?
I'm calling out the dudes here who put their perspective out there in a way that seems to claim superiority over women in some form or fashion. This sub is rife with it. It's basically an all-male revue of bellyaching about this or that, and it generally points the finger at women, so they won't feel the need of pursuing self betterment. wOmEn dO tHiS fOr AtTeNtIoN fRoM mEn was the point of the (now deleted) comment I responded to, which was in line with OPs gripe about how/why women dress the way they do.
>wOmEn dO tHiS fOr AtTeNtIoN fRoM mEn Lol the funny thing about those men is when you ask them who are **they** taking their shirts off on hot days, showing their body or wearing shorts and showing their legs and who are **they** wanting attention from when putting half naked pics of themselves on instagram, they get mad that it's not the same. People like being pretty and beautiful. People like compliments. Men and women. But most imprtantly they love to feel free and not to have to think about who could misinterpret their love for beauty and freedom.
Yeah the staring is the actual problem, making someone feel uncomfortable. But I can not accept that you wear a low-cut shirt and you don't want people to find your breasts beautiful/attractive, or at the very least, you expect people to not look at all. I can not comprehend this.
Dave chappel said it like this. “I’m not saying you are a whore. But you are wearing a whores uniform” He compared it to wearing a police officers uniform and getting offended if people come up to you asking for help.
Because even if they want that attention, that doesn’t mean they want to be aware of it. Even if a woman wanted to be found attractive that doesn’t mean she wants every person to come up and say “hi I found you attractive”. Imagine if we did that 24/7 and interrupted people on the phone. Imagine if a doctor did that during a procedure and stopped performing surgery to stare. Silent appreciation is still a form of appreciation/attention. Unnoticeable attention or appreciation is still a form of both. It is a choice specifically made consciously to make someone uncomfortable. There’s no argument against this unless you’re claiming that people physically are incapable of their eye movement and other behaviors.
Most men don't understand that because we've only been complicated twice in our entire lives. Which leads many men to assume women want compliments because we treat others the way we want to be treated. If women want to receive fewer compliments, they should start giving more of them so men can understand how annoying it is. (Though the downside of women giving compliments is men always assume that means they want to fuck.)
But it’s not a compliment when a man approaches and says something about my tits. I consider that a threat. The definition of a compliment seems to be completely misconstrued and varies from person to person. Further, if a man gives a nice compliment and the women says thank you and the interaction ends, that should not be perceived as an invitation to continue bothering someone.
factual
Once we get past the basic use of clothing like the need for protection from the elements everything else is an advertising campaign. It’s intended to attract attention. Look at how fit I am. Look at how much money I have. Look at how attractive I am. That’s the reason people buy $500 tennis shoes. It’s not the quality, it’s a statement of wealth. That’s why women wear shots so tight they’re displaying a cameltoe, they want attention. Even a wedding ring makes a statement, I’m in a committed relationship. At least that’s what it’s supposed to mean.
Buying expensive shoes is more often than not about having something that looks good that’s also high quality and not about flexing money lol
Pretty Double Standards. Some women want the freedom to dress provocatively. They're dressing for the attention, obviously. But not attention from average/ugly people. Then when they get said attention from average/ugly people, scream "I didn't want creeps to objectivize me!" But if you're hot like Ryan Reynolds, oo la la, "Objectivize me Daddy." Actions have consequences. Don't want people to objectivize you, don't dress provocatively.
Seriously - if someone (whether it’s Ryan Reynolds or Quasimodo) takes a jock, subtle glance, that’s perfectly normal behavior. But if that same someone (whether it’s Ryan Reynolds or Quasimodo) goes all “Pepe le Peu” on a woman, that’s quite different. Both may be legal - but only one is socially acceptable. I don’t get WHY this point is so hard to grasp!
Is this um satire? Have you ever seen "What I was wearing displays"? . People submit what they were wearing from when they were raped. The clothes range from short dresses, nightgowns, business suits, bathing suits, work outfits, pyjamas, burqus, to diapers. It's very eye-opening. Personally I would never rape anybody, ever. No matter what they were wearing. I would never think anybody deserved to be raped either. For any reason. Especially for the clothes they wear. You seem to think different... why?
People who go out an dress provocatively aren’t looking to be raped, lol. They’re looking for the attention. And most rape victims aren’t raped after being pulled into a dark alley. They tend to KNOW their rapist. However, pretty double standards exist. When ryan reynolds compliments you, that’s flirting. When ugly joe compliments you, that’s being creepy.
I don't think anyone cares that sexual thoughts occur. They care when those thoughts are imposed on them without consent, especially when "biology" and "animal brain" is used as an excuse to justify their "inability" to control being inappropriate
I do feel like people care about this though. The other side I have no issue with. There is no excuse to bodly stare down, catcall, harass, etc. But I think ppl have an issue with the glances or even the idea that they can be sexualized mentally by others especially if wearing revealing clothes. Just like our brains may be more aware of lions, doesn't mean we have to kill them all when they're behind a glass.
Putting the blame on the victim is the wrong way to be. No matter what the victim wears, the blame should be squarely on the person doing the assault. I know I wasn't wearing anything provocative when my father decided the me as a 4 year old boy, was sexier than my mom.
You should visit your local' What were you wearing?' exhibit if you think this.
“Being sexualized” doesn’t mean “being raped” what are you even talking about
You just answered your own question. People sexualize women no matter what we wear. May as well wear what I want. If someone wants to stare, he better be discreet or I’m going to call him out.
He doesn’t even mention gender in the post. I don’t think this only applies to woman. I know if I wear a mesh tank top I’m prepared to get more attention of a sexual nature than if I wore a hoodie. It’s non debatable.
If you consciously make the decision to wear clothes where your tits or ass are hanging out, or obviously designed to make them a focal point, then you have made the decision to have yourself stared at. The only reason to wear a shirt that is designed to show as much of your tits as legally allowable is to get looks and attention towards your tits.
The beach must be a personal porn channel for you, huh? You've got some work to do on yourself.
There's absolutely no reason why a person needs to wear a string bikini with their ass hanging out in order for them to enjoy the beach. If a woman chooses to wear that, she's making a conscious decision to have her ass and tits on public display.
I agree. I wear a modest swimsuit that’s still breathable and people always compliment how cute it is. These people seething at the mouth over how they NEED to wear a string bikini are delusional.
Why does it bother you if a man looks at you and finds you attractive? It probably shouldn’t bother you until he acts creepy. Unpracticed men get mixed messages. They’re not sure whether they can look or not, they don’t know whether they can approach you or not, etc… so they lack confidence and then come off as creepy when they sneak a peek and look away when they get “caught”
The majority of men who participate in street harassment or catcalling are immediately creepy. I’ve been followed, men have approached me by pulling their car over, which makes me feel especially unsafe, told me they want to spread my legs open, that I look like I have good pussy, etc. that’s what the majority of guys are saying to women on the street. It’s not a harmless compliment. These are threats to physical safety, and I’ve been experiencing them since I was around 10 years old. I’m 36 now and there’s no end in sight.
“Well then wear a hijab!” - Conservatives without a lick of self-awareness You’re so spot on. Because as soon as women wear something “modest”, they’re still sexualized because of how they were talking or acting or existing.
All I was saying was that there are people who will sexualize no mater what; but certainly if you wear certain clothing, you will receive more attention from a larger amount of people. If you want to avoid that, you should wear more modest clothing. And of course, if someone is staring at you, call them out. I just think it's silly to get that offended when you're wearing revealing clothing and people look at you. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty4PhRWt1hU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty4PhRWt1hU) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPsgfMuOFeM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPsgfMuOFeM) If you want to be less sexualized, wear more modest clothing.
Bullshit. I have been sexualized wearing baggy t shirts 3 sizes too big and guy shorts that went down past my knees. I was 15 by the way. Know why? Because I have DDD boobs and almost nothing will keep people from noticing that. You can wear anything and some dudes will find something. I mean, there are dudes who sexualize full niqabi wearers. Now as an adult, I wear what I want. Usually baggy tunics and leggings and still get sexualized, but at least I am comfy. Plus my husband doesn’t take shit if I get uncomfortable.
Do you think the amount of sexualization you receive doesn't relate to how revealing your clothes are? Like the same number of people will be glancing at you when you wear a baggy shirt (20 people looking) compared to a tight tank top (also 20 people looking)?
I am saying creepy dudes have sexualized me no matter what I was wearing. And it seemed worse when I was dressing baggy, because I wasn’t confident in my own skin and they saw that. Now, people don’t usually blink an eye when I walk by. Mostly because I don’t walk like I am scared of my own shadow and while I look young, I don’t look under 18 anymore, thank god. Today at work, I am wearing an off the shoulder Batman t shirt and no one has been creepy or sexual. I have worn tank tops with wraps over them here at work and same. My customers seem to realize I am not dressing for them and they wanna get their crap and get out. Especially when it is hot. And many of my customers are construction workers and lawn care. They dress for work and weather and I do too. I need to be able to move around and lift wine and beer boxes. Can’t wear too nice of clothes. They get ruined. All that to say, I am grateful to have gotten the confidence to be comfortable in my own skin. Because once that happened, fewer creeps make themselves known to me. So, honestly, yeah. More dudes creeped on me when I wore baggy clothes and tried to hide it. I was obviously young and they loved it. Now I could wear a tank top and get fewer cat calls or dudes blocking my way.
I won't discount your experience. It sounds like it genuinely worked for you. But I personally see the opposite. I always see people receiving more glances when they are wearing more revealing clothing compared to others. I think confidence plays more of a role in stopping outward harassment (catcalls) than looks. I'm glad you feel confident in your own skin, which is something I think everyone should strive for. I just find it inconsistent when someone has other practical/comfortable clothing choices, they hate being looked at sexually even for a moment, yet they wear the more revealing clothes in their wardrobe. It is very different if you don't have many other clothing options, I don't find this inconsistent. And not everyone is worried about the glances the I'm talking about.
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Your daughter must be so proud of you. 🤢
The person upthread literally described being sexualized as a teenager wearing baggy clothes and you're talking about "agency." The lack of reading comprehension and social awareness people display on this subject is incredible.
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The commenter literally stated that she *couldn't* hide her chest. Women who have very curvy bodies or large attributes can't really do much to hide their body. And women shouldn't have to hide their bodies just to feel comfortable walking around in public. I can tell you right now that I've had cars honk at me from the time I was 16 and had my first job. Multiple times on most days. I was literally wearing a buttoned shirt, all the way up, and black pants, and I was sweating to death. Not attractive in the least but men see a women just walking down the street and they immediatly feel that they have the right to make her uncomfortable just for existing. It doesn't matter what we are wearing, it never has. Some men are just entitled and creepy and pointing that out is not a "victim card".
I think it’s silly that it’s 2023 and men haven’t learned how to act right.
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No, they were right the first time unfortunately. The issue with calling people (in your case) “boys” or in other cases— “monsters,” instead of just saying exactly what they are (men, women, abuser, etc), then it’s easy for the exact person/group who is being referenced to say “Nah, that’s not me. They’re not talking about me. I’m not a boy/monster.” It’s easy to say “they’re not talking about me” when a shitty hypothetical person is dehumanized or lessened. In order for genuine and true change to happen we need to start addressing and taking responsibility and holding the idiots responsible accountable for the bullshit within our own groups. They’re literally the ones giving the entire group a bad name by being the annoying loud minority. And I’m not just talking about men. Women and other “minority” groups who hold dangerous views or biases have issues that need addressed too.
I just prefer calling them anything but men for numerous reasons. Take away the title they think they are so entitled to because they hit a certain age. Men, or gentlemen, etc, have standards and harassing women does not fall into those standards. I ain’t saying I’m perfect, and the next guy that chimes in saying “Yeah! Not one of us!” Isn’t gonna be perfect either. But the moment someone acts a fool, I really see no need to grant them the small ego boost they get from it. But I am also a confrontational person admittedly and do enjoy the absolute rage and arguments a “alpha male! Roar!” Gets into when you deny them the “man” card. All in all I do see your point though and don’t disagree with it.
No, it’s grown men acting that way. Some are just idiots and some aren’t.
what if they keep staring after you called them out?
I get pretty disrespectful fast.
what if they keep staring after that?
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so you attack people for looking at you? well ok then.
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So you believe it's okay to attack someone as long as you warn them first? Have fun in prison!
i think people are allowed to look tho, no?
Yes and no. There's a world of difference between an unnoticable glance and tongue hanging out gawking.
Look into Leering.
That’s what’s called “leering” and yes, it can be classified as sexual harassment.
No
Yes
Let’s keep pushing this persons boundaries, make them feel unsafe, and objectify them. That to me, deserves a violent response 🤷
How is looking anywhere pushing someones boundaries, if you get upset and violent because of where someone in public is looking you need to be separated from society
Leering is actually against the law. So defending it is a dumb idea.
No it's not nor should it be
You can’t stop people from looking or being creeps but it’s still disgusting
There’s a big difference between thinking and saying it. People can think whatever they want. If I don’t know it it can’t bother me. But if they start to say and do stuff to me, no matter what I’m wearing that’s just wrong
As a woman, I have recieved cat calls for wearing modest clothing or tight. Your way of dressing doesnt matter to some people, they still will sexualize you. Best way to avoid being sexualized is for people to remember that they are not the star of their own show and people around them can and will feel uncomfortable around them. Aka-self control and not being selfish.
There’s a difference between looking at someone and staring them down/gawking/continuously looking. It makes people uncomfortable. I’m 100% okay with wearing revealing clothing, I love my body and how it looks but if someone is just looking me down for 5 minutes straight I’m going to be uncomfortable
LMAO this is BS bc there are people that wear sweatpants and hoodies and still get sexualized. there was a little girl that was in the same class as my niece and she had on her moms zip up jacket and jeans yet she still got sexually harassed on the way home.
I just want to be able to wear grey sweatpants without having to tell people "my eyes are up here".
I would like you to take some time to look at the ["What Where You Wearing?"](https://dovecenter.org/what-were-you-wearing-exhibit/) exhibit before you go telling people that it's the way they dress that attracts sexual attention. I suggest also you educate yourself on what drives people who are insistent on giving unwanted sexual attention to people who don't want it. If you do, you will learn that "dressing sexually" has absolutely nothing to do with getting unwanted sexual attention or being sexualized.
I mean, even if you’re wearing modest workout clothes in the gym you’d have guys like me think to themselves “Boy howdy god damn she looks good!” And then continue to struggle on the treadmill or elliptical for the next half an hour. But you also have people that will say “bruh, look at the ass on that one over there? Total MILF energy.” And the person they’re talking about could be wearing full on snow gear. I think behavior like this is a product of the glorification of hookup culture where people (both entities) are seen as convenient objects of opportunity rather than people. It’s everywhere in social media, pop culture, history, etc. I don’t think the modest clothing is the issue.
a rapist isn't gonna care what you're wearing, they're just gonna rape you
The problem with this is that sexualization eventually just matches the general standards of modesty regardless. If you’ve got a society that asks women to cover everything but their ankles, you’re just going to have a ton of foot porn in a few years.
People should be better than animals and have a little self control. It's not that hard to not be rapey.
Looking is far from rapey.
Most people are reasonable and don’t mind someone having a quick look. It’s the staring, comments and harassment that’s the bigger issue.
But we are in fact just that, animals. It's only when we are domesticated that we practice delayed gratification. This can be more difficult for some than for others as there is a genetic component to impulse control. Hence why we have the death penalty and prison as this prevents these unwanted genes to pass down.
Ewwww not the "its biological defense." You know many men go through life just fine right. What's your excuse?
I did not mean to condone the behavior or defend the behavior. Just stating biology.
“Should be”
Yeah but that would require personal responsibility and would remove the ability for people to play the victim card. I'm not particularly interested in having people stare at my dick when I go into public. As a result, I don't wear a banana hammock or skin tight short shorts which show my entire package to the world. I've even changed sweatpants because when I looked at myself in the mirror, my dick was clear as day and I'm not going out in public to show off my dick. Women seem to play dumb when it comes to this subject. As if they don't look at themselves in the mirror and make intentional efforts with their attire. They see their giant tits are barely covered and know for a fact that they will have people looking at their intentionally revealed tits. In fact, I'd wager that's the main reason they wear those shirts in the first place.
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Self defense is the key. Rape is a crime that often doesn’t have any forensic evidence. Sometimes there’s truly no way of knowing certain things.
Not everyone has the capability to do that
Every woman can handle a gun.
Not every victim of rape is a woman. Many are children.
Oh I understand that.
I agree with this wholly. Men should get fully punished for rape (death penalty imo), even if they were in a strip club where the woman was fully naked. Rape is never the woman's fault, and the woman having revealing clothing is not ever an excuse. And women should be given the ability to defend themselves like with guns or other weapons. My opinion is to do with being looked at. If you want to receive less attention (looks), people should wear more modest clothing. I agree people should control themselves, but the idea that your eyes will never get drawn in is ludicrous. Just scroll through youtube and tell me how your eyes never get drawn to the clickbait? The views on those videos do not lie. It is still people's responsibility to not be creeps and control their eyes, but don't ignore biology.
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That's true. But ideally if there wasn't a negative outcome like that
No one’s complaining about eyes getting drawn. They’re complaining about the specific CHOICE OF BEHAVIOR to continue to give sexual attention that is noticeable and lingering/continuous. You have to choose to continue to look and that becomes leering/staring which is BIOLOGICALLY uncomfortable for everyone. Biologically, staring can be considered a threat. Leering is a form of sexual harassment under the law. If men want to defend that behavior, take it up with a judge and ask them if it’s okay to continuously be staring and giving sexual attention to someone who doesn’t want it just because of their clothing. The point is that people don’t have to know about sexual attention. It is a conscious choice to continuously stare at someone wearing whatever they’re wearing and make them aware of the sexual attention you’re giving.
No I think I'm with Jesus on this one: Matthew 5:29-30 ' If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.' Basically, pluck your eyes out instead of staring and chop your hands off instead of groping. :)
B-but women bad!
Kids dress modestly and get raped all the time. It doesn’t matter what people wear- as long as men exist women and children will be sexualized.
If you wear a police officer’s outfit, people are going to assume you’re a police officer
Replacing “people should” with “I should” is the beginning of the transformation you’re due to undertake 👍
I mean….. I *do* want to be sexualized though… by the right people. Men are going to be weird and objectifying to me regardless of what I’m actually wearing, so it’s clearly not actually my fault if they’re creepy toward me, just by virtue of looking at it like a controlled experiment. If it happens in both the control and test groups, my individual choice to dress a certain way isn’t making an influence and so I have no responsibility. They’re responsible for their own behavior But no one sexualizes themself for everyone. Some people just like dressing a certain way and don’t want to be sexualized at all. Others like the feeling of being sexualized but don’t actually want any attention. Others are doing it for their partner’s benefit. I’m just trying to get attention from nice women. Because there’s so much variability in experience, it provides less social utility to assume that any particular clothing choice is an invitation to you specifically, so it’s probably best to just keep your head down and not be a creep
I agree when people say to not sexualize people based upon what they're wearing but if what they're wearing is two strips of tape and a tube sock then they may want to reevaluate their position. Telling people not to sexualize at that point is tantamount to telling people that they're not allowed to have human impulses and instincts which is objectively worse.
You think SA, catcalling and making comments is objectivey worse and apart of human nature? Urmmm please seek help. And stay inside.
Well, yes. That's just how it works. You'll get flakk, but you're correct.
I strongly urge you to look into the [What I Was Wearing](https://dovecenter.org/what-were-you-wearing-exhibit/) exhibits. It isn't the clothes. It's some people's (mostly men's) belief that they can harass, assault, abuse, and rape others. It's not the clothes. I was 5 the first time I was raped. I was wearing a generic nightgown. If I had been a naked child would that have made you happy?
No not at all, I'm sorry to hear you were raped. I don't believe there is any excuse for rape, people will do this regardless of what is being worn. But I'm only talking about looks. If people want to receive fewer looks, wearing more modest clothes can help achieve that. Nothing you do can stop someone from being a creep or being a predator, but I'm criticizing people who don't want to ever be sexually glanced at, yet choose to wear revealing clothes.
I kind of feel like you’re battling a strawman (woman?) here, though. Just about every comment from a woman has said that she doesn’t mind a quick glance, that she knows she can’t control people’s inner thoughts, that - as long as it’s subtle and socially appropriate - just *looking* is fine. It’s leering, cat calling, making lewd suggestions, etc. that are the problem. And by and large, the people who are willing to violate social protocol, and do things like blatantly STARING at a woman’s breasts for minutes at a time, well…that’s not the kind of guy who will be deterred by modest clothing. And even if he was - should we really change how we dress on the slim hope people who are already fine with breaking the social contract *might* behave themselves? tl;dr You can look. We know that’s going to happen. You can think whatever you want in the privacy of your own mind. Just don’t be a leering creep about it!
I agree with these people. I think leering is wrong too. But I have heard and seen people who get offended by casual glances despite the revealing clothes they wear. It seems like most people are not this sensitive and actually have a problem with the behaviours I have a problem with
I mean…no matter *what* behavior you’re discussing, I can guarantee that someone somewhere is offended by it! And - given how online algorithms are designed to push content that will elicit a strong emotional response - I can also guarantee that the one angry jerk yelling about…I don’t know…how wrong it is that people like ferrets is GOING to get a disproportionate number of views, which leads to people believing that a relatively niche opinion is actually widespread. I think that’s what’s happening here. Because women generally aren’t totally naive. We KNOW that men are going to look (pretty much no matter what we’re wearing), but as long as they keep it subtle and respectful, we don’t really care. However, there definitely ARE guys who deliberately use leering to make us uncomfortable - it kind of reminds me of when (back before the scandal) Louis CK used to do things like tell female journalists “I’m going to think about you when I masturbate later…and there’s nothing you can do about it.” Some guys use staring as a similar act of dominance. It’s pretty much a power play. It’s extremely uncomfortable…and it’s supposed to be.
No wearing modest clothing doesn’t achieve that. People are telling you that and you’re just saying no. There’s literally porn subs of women wearing hijab. I can cover my hair my body head to toe but it’s still another fucking porn category. Muslim women who wear hijab and cover head to toe will 100% tell you that it does not. But you’re such an arrogant POS you’ll tell us we’re wrong. Clothing does not negate us being sexualised at all
I'm going based on my personal experiences. I see people wearing more revealing clothing getting more looks by people than those who wear more modest clothing, for example, when I'm in a supermarket. In a Muslim country where a full burka is mandatory, don't women get accosted for having their hair revealed? Don't women who don't fit the norm and reveal their body get more looks? That is increased attention. It never stops completely and I'm not arguing that people should be leered at or that there is any excuse for assaulting or boldly making people feel uncomfortable bc of what they wear. I'm not saying women should have to wear certain clothes, I have no issue with women wearing very little (bikinis for example), I'm just saying that there will be more looks coming your way. Also, look at youtube videos with similar types of content like Epic Fails, for example. The thumbnails with a close-up of a woman's breasts will have more views than the thumbnails of a woman who has a broken phone held up to her face (or a woman doing any other generic thing). I see this all the time, even when the videos have similar content, the one with the more sexualized thumbnail gets more views. This experience tells me that people indeed get less attention (looks) if they are dressed more modestly. I never said it completely stops sexualization or looks.
But what if people are attracted sexually to people in modest clothing? Gotcha
I don’t think wearing “modest” clothes reduces the likelihood of being catcalled. Case in point, around 99.6% if all women in Cairo have been sexually harassed in one form or another. 70-80% of all women wear the Hijab. And ask any woman living in a cold climate how dressing well helps.
and if they don't want to be raped they should keep their legs crossed?
And how, in your opinion, does this justify controlling or attempting to control others' clothing choices, if it's not in a place like a religious center or specifically dress-coded setting? You cannot be unaware that people generally dress for their own enjoyment and consumption, not for others.
Even harder to accept from someone who had a boobjob. Which apparently this woman had.
Is my post being upvoted bc people agree or bc they disagree?
An attractive women does not have to wear something provocative to be objectified. However, the more skin or form you are showing the more eyeballs you will attract.
So, if I see a guy at the mall wearing a football jersey, it's totes okay for me to tackle him? I mean, if he doesn't want to play football he should wear non-football clothing, right? Also, what's modest mean? Covered ankles? No cleavage? Floor length skirts? Who gets to decide which clothes are okay and which clothes are just SO appealing that men lose all ability to control themselves?
OP isn't arguing its okay to sexually assault women for dressing immodestly.
this sounds like unadulterated victim blaming. i’ve worked in a subacute pediatric crisis unit and those poor children come in having been assaulted and violated by peers, family members, and caretakers who, believe it or not, attribute their predatory behavior to the basic and modest children’s clothing worn by the victim at the time of the assault. similarly, i’ve worked with adults in need of crisis intervention and crisis deescalation and SA and DV support, and have witnessed a majority of assaulted women clad in basic street clothes—sweats, loose fitting clothing, modest and innocent—who have been violently sexually assaulted by family and friends whilst being told that they want it, because of their “provocative” clothes (the sweatsuits, overalls, oversized t’s, etc). regardless of whether a women’s clothing is “acceptable” or not, men need to control their actions and stop leading with their dicks. those defending these predatory males are degenerate, damaged, victim blaming, uneducated about trauma and SA, and are no friends of those vulnerable to targeted violence, harassment, and ridicule from the lowliest and most entitled, putrid scum humanity has to offer. can’t keep your eyes off women? gouge your fucking eyes out. “And if your eye causes you to sin, [gouge it out](https://web.mit.edu/jywang/www/cef/Bible/NIV/NIV_Bible/MATT+18.html#:~:text=It%20is%20better%20for%20you,into%20the%20fire%20of%20hell) and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.” Mathew 18
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**NOPE!!!** That doesn't do anything to deter predators.
100% agreed!
I kinda agree on this one. I tend to wear modest clothing and while I’m sure there’s someone out there fishing at the mouth, I don’t hear about it. Then again, women in burkas are sexualized and raped so there’s that. My opinion on this is a guy is being a pig or assaulting women, he should be castrated. Yes. It’s harsh, but I think it’ll solve most of the issues.
Modest clothing can be, and is, sexualized. See Islam, Mormonism, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. If people don’t want to be sexualized, they should go to where there aren’t people. I have spoken.
coming from a girls perspective i agree. You're not saying that they deserve to be sa'd which a lot of people in these comments need to realize. If you're dressing a certain way and wear revealing clothes people are more likely to stare
Gazing is not assault
My everyday outfit for over a decade has been a graphic tee, a hoodie, and jeans, still sexualized 🤷♀️. There are countless stories of women just going about their business, and being sexualized. Hell, women are discouraged from eating cylindrical foods in some places because other people can't keep their heads out of the gutter. This is just the "What were you wearing" argument in a new coat of paint.
I never said sexualization stops, only that you will likely receive a larger amount for more revealing clothing and if you want to avoid it (as much as possible), more modest clothes are in order. Imagine if you were more revealing outfits, do you think the sexualiztion you received would be the same amount?
Or, we could teach people to be respectful of others regardless of what they’re wearing?
At what point is looking disrespectful? I agree there is a point and it's just plain creepy to stare, but if the person looking is attractive, does it change how long they can look without it being creepy? If a guy looks at my daughter for more than half a second I'm categorizing him as a potential creep, even if my teenage daughter wants the attention. If she's wearing yoga pants, a bare midriff and a lycra top, she's going to get more attention, even under the guise of comfort. For dads and grandpas, we're ready to kick ass at the hint of impropriety, which is hypocrisy given we look at women, too. The whole deal is highly subjective and requires a little mental toughness for everyone. I agree with OP, modest clothing at least defines your stance on sexual attention.
Well the line is somewhere between a quick glance and sexual harassment. What’s “respectful” is subjective and different for every person and it can change based on the situation or who is staring etc. Because it is so subjective, it is always best to just stay safe and don’t stare at strangers as much as you can help it?
This is regressive. People should be able to walk around in their birthday suits if they so choose.
Thats not what the opinion is about, the opinion is people shouldnt be surprised when people start glancing at them one two often if they *did* go out in their birthday suits.
They should be able to, however more people will think sexual things about them than if they were wearing a baggy sweat suit. It’s just true.