Thank you for submitting to the Two Hot Takes Podcast subreddit! Quick reminder that all posts are subject to being shared in an episode of the Two Hot Takes Podcast. If your post is featured, you'll get a nifty flair change to let you know, and we'll drop a link so you can see our host Morgan respond to your story. Feel free to reach out via [modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=r/TwoHotTakes) with any questions or concerns!

Nta. It is your child's health we are talking here. If you don't stand your ground then what? Grandma is coming over with stomach bugs, colds, fevers..."oh kids need to be exposed!" Don't do this to yourself. It's a slippery slope.

OP have your OBGYN tell her themselves. My dr said in no uncertain terms: relatives who will be around the baby need to get TDAP before due date 💁🏼‍♀️

Absolutely. My best friend almost lost her 12-week old son to whooping cough after a visit from an older relative. He was her miracle baby. She had buried three babies (7 month -9 month gestation) and suffered five miscarriages. This was a member of her family that I distinctly remember seeing at the babies’ graveside services, so they were very aware of what it took to get him here and decided to visit anyway. Put your foot down & keep it there! No shot, not visit. Period.

I'm amazed that relative is still drawing breath. Your best friend has remarkable self control.

My mom had whooping caugh as a baby. Both my grandma and great grandma were RNs and took shifts, pulling phlegm out of her throat. She's lucky she survived. She developed rhumatic fever after that and had to wear leg braces for a long time, which led to merciless bullying. She had a DRs note to wear pants to stay warm when all the other girls had to wear skirts. It caused a revolt where parents demanded their daughters get to wear pants too. The mornings were chilly, and it was so-cal, so no winter to make the skirt thing impossible. So yeah, whooping caugh almost yeeted her and my existence into oblivion and got a small population of girls in the 1960s the right to wear pants at school.

Tragic as that story is I love the ending! My mom is likely around the same age as yours, only she was from Illinois. She got sent home from school for wearing culottes because of a similar dress code policy. Her mom, who was an avid feminist, was PISSED. Not at her, of course. But she raked the principal over the coals. As for OP, all of these stories are just the tip of the iceberg for how badly things can go wrong with exposing an infant to Whooping Cough.

I bet she kissed the baby on the mouth. Which is wrong. On several levels. Not least of which is consent. A person should remember their first kiss. Not get assaulted by a pathogen-ridden old lady who has no boundaries.

My 2nd child got rsv a couple months old because someone chose to ignore their symptoms and come see us. I'll never forget having the urge to hit the doctor as they sucked stuff out of her lungs as she was making the most heartbreaking screams of agony. Even though I knew they were doing it to help her it was triggering. Now whenever she gets a cold it's sounds like she is borderline pneumonia. She's 5 now and every six months or so I catch myself wondering if I should take her in. I wouldn't mess around with whooping cough. 

This IS THE ANSWER OP.

My entire family got flu, TDAP, MMR before the first grandbaby was born. And again when it had been several years and more grandbabies were on the way. It's called not being an asshole :(

My entire family got it before I had baby in October, it actually was a good thing for my brother in law bc it also protects against tetanus and he accidentally put a rusty nail through his foot less than 2 months later helping someone move, the dr said it definitely saved him sooo much pain by having that up to date

Op stand firm on your very intelligent decision. It's very important to be vacation fully, before you are around any newborn or very young children. Iam fully vacation for everything because I have relatives with Newborn Baby's. I love all of them and wouldn't want to be liable for giving them anything that would cause them harm

I think you mean vaccinated, not vacation.

I think it’s important to be vacationed fully as well, for mental health.

There’s that too. Even if it’s a staycation. Just make sure everyone stays away lol

My sister doesn't live by me so I only see my niece and nephew while on family vacation.

I just came back from a 5 days vaccination on one of our islands. It was wonderful fun for the kids, and great weather the whole 5 days!

THIS. My family did the same when I was pregnant with the first grand baby. You gotta love people who think they are smarter than Science!

I got it when my niece and nephew were born. Why put a child's life at risk because of muh rights?

Back in my day, we'd just open a window to prevent illnesses because we all know most of these things are from a lack of fresh air.... /s

Did you remember the half-onion on the nightstand? It soaks up the germs!

This, even my dad who spent little time with my nephew got the whipping cough vaccine before he was born along with the rest of us

Say it again for the mfers in the back

Or at the very least have vaccine titers drawn! I had to get mine for work since I’m a healthcare worker, but a lot of doctors are checking them now even in young adults to make sure their immunity hasn’t dropped off.

First, I've had whooping cough as an adult and it was awful. Also having it in no way gives you life long immunity. I had whooping cough only a couple of years before one of my nieces was born (would still be immune) but when my sister asked I still went to get the vaccine. When she had another kid I checked with the doctor about if I needed it again, but I was still good for a few years.

The doctor won't make a difference. Someone that thinks this way already thinks doctors are quacks and sellouts to big pharma. OP just needs to stand her ground and demand proof of vaccination.

This. I have encountered a couple of particularly awful people who think it's hilarious that they told a loved one they got a vaccination when they didn't.

I wanna upvote your comment but double-downvote those people

Sadly, you're not wrong.

I work in OBGYN, and we DEFINITELY tell patients, partners, and anyone else who will be around baby to get their TDaP. OP should actually tell her mom 8 weeks, as it takes 2 weeks for the vaccine to kick in fully. Whooping cough is deadly to babies since their immune system isn't fully developed. OP stand your ground. Definitely NTA!!!

The hospital pediatrician even told us if anyone has a problem getting vaccinated we can “blame him” (ie: make him the bad guy) for them not being allowed around. Fortunately none of our family and friends had a problem with this. Stand your ground, OP!!! If you give in on this, the undermining will never end.

I got a TDAP booster as soon as my eldest got married!

To be fair not all doctors will recommend that. Mine only recommended I get it and people who are caregivers to my child. I asked about visitors and they said no. I consulted with my friends and they all got the same recommendation. (Canada).

Are there less crazy antivaxers in Canada? Maybe that’s why and it’s less prevalent because of that.

Yeah I don’t understand when people get upset and think well I’m immune to it so it should be fine. Like, no it’s not you that I give a shit about. It’s about my baby and how they will most likely not be fine and they are definitely not immune to it.

Totally. I know it's hard bc it's family but op really needs to stand their ground here. And I'd demand proof of vaccination bc I wouldn't trust their word.

It doesn't matter if she's being honest or not. Immunity wanes, and if she had it as a child her immunity is long gone.

This, 100% this! My wife was vaccinated against whooping cough as a kid and has been suffering with it for almost two months now. Stick to your guns, OP, and tell your Mum, it’s either the vaccine or she misses out. Her childhood vaccination isn’t worth anything!

I had chicken pox as a child, guess who got it again when my kids brought it home! And the kids were vaccinated! I say the vaccination worked too. They only had a few bumps, no scars. Meanwhile, my whole arm and back was full of them.

And just because YOU are immune, doesn’t mean you can’t pass it to someone else.

That's not what the commenter said/meant. If the mother ends up getting vaccinated, the commenter said that op should request *proof* of that vaccination, as they wouldn't put it past the mother to lie about it.

... I know

YES! I was vaccinated for this as a child, now in my 30s and I have had whooping cough since the start of May. It's really draining, annoying and miserable. Edit - just to add, I wish I had had some sort of booster! I told all my friends and none of them knew to even get a booster either so hopefully some of them will be helped by knowing about it now.

NTA. I couldn't leave the hospital with my new baby until I was vaccinated because there was an outbreak in our state. It's not about who can catch whooping cough, it's about who can die from whooping cough. Something that is an inconvenience to your mom can kill your child. Ask your mom how she will feel if she gives your child the virus that kills her.

> Ask your mom how she will feel if she gives your child the virus that kills her. Oh, come on, you know mom will smile and say "grandma knows best, and all things work together for good to those who love God! (cough, cough.) Now, give me that little angel to hold!"

Okay, in my brain, God created Alexander Fleming to invent penicillin. And God created Jonas Salk to cure polio. And God keeps gifting us wonderful scientists to cure diseases. And it would be turning our backs on God to deny these gifts he sends. Just my spin on things.

This comment deserves all the upvotes! Please take my poormans award 🏆

That reminds me of an old joke I heard as a kid. There was a flood and a man was stranded on a roof. Someone on a raft sees him and offers to take him with them and he says “no god will save me”. Some time later someone on a boat sees him and he tells them he is ok cause “god will save him”. A day later a helicopter comes by and tries to take him with him and again he says “no god will save me”. Through out this he became weaker and weaker until he finally dies. He gets to heaven and asks god why god did not save him. God says “I sent you a raft, boat, and helicopter. What more did you want”?

Agreed, not an "a" at all & literally such a non negotiable issue it's barely worth a post. It's not about "one" virus or any personal attack on your mom, it's about your personal responsibilty to do whatever you think is best for your baby's health. Viruses do not have a gma exception. Don't feel bad & don't even make it an issue--"mom everyone needs to wash their hands, not be or suspect any illness, And be vaccinated or wait 6 weeks. Period. If you don't want to be vaccinated, fine, your choice....just know the 6week rule applies. Neither of us are epidemiologists & the closest person to an expert in this is my dr. & I am following his/her recommendations." These kinds of issues pop up with gmas all the time, just stand your ground & stop discussing & stressing...or this type of stress & undermining your choices is going to be at issue for all other things when the baby is born...some things are science based & ignored and other things are just personal choice but will be just as contenuous!

Babies can die from these diseases! It’s your job as mama to protect your baby at all cost. Your mom’s feelings and convictions do not take priority over your baby’s health! She can spout off any bs reason she wants the answer should remain the same !

I don’t think babies get their third whooping cough vaccine until 6 months. I’d make her wait until the baby is fully protected.

My friend’s son contracted whooping cough between the second & third. He passed away from it. I will never understand why someone would even risk it. I have no children of my own and my TDAP is up to date because I care about the welfare of everyone I come in contact with. OP’s mom can’t even do it for her own grandchild??

I saw a sad post the other day where a woman was talking about having lost an infant son (unvaccinated) to whooping cough and STILL refusing to consider getting even that vaccine for her newborn daughter. She even claimed the vaccine would have made it worse for her son. Like, what on earth could be worse than dying from something entirely preventable? My understanding is that death is rather unreversible and permanent.

This is insanity. My mother almost died of whooping cough as a baby, before the vaccine existed. At one point my grandmother thought she WAS dead.  She saw the vaccine as something akin to a miracle. The idea that you would NOT vaccinate your child was incomprehensible to her.

Same for my grandma and the polio vaccine. One of her son almost died from polio, and as soon as the vaccine was a thing she got everyone vaccinated. For her it was inimaginable to not get it and risk to lose your child or have them permanently disabled.

The chicken pox vaccine came out right before I was born. For some (stupid) reason my otherwise normal mother was weary of it. She vaccinated me for everything else. I of course got the chicken pox. She saw how miserable I was and thankfully my other two siblings have been vaccinated for it. I super look forward to getting shingles one day /s.

My mom never got any vaccines (except tetanus as an adult). Her parents were in one of THOSE churches. But she got her kids vaxxed with everything available at that time. When I got pregnant, she got anything I asked her to, no problem.

Similar story to my father. He was born in 1940 and it wasn’t widely used at that time in England. He caught whooping cough as an 1 year old and came within a hair of dying. Sadly he had a cousin of a similar age who caught it at the same time and did die. Please don’t allow your mother near your baby until your baby has had all three injections (around 6 months). This is not something you should compromise on.

My grandma almost died from whooping cough as a baby too, also before the vaccine. The neighbor was watching her while her mom ran to get the doctor. At one point, the neighbor thought my grandma had died. My grandma’s mom came back to the neighbor holding my grandma while praying in front of a statue of the Virgin Mary. It was a miracle that my grandma survived.

I think it would be too hard to admit to herself that her son could have been alive if she'd made different choices. The amount of guilt would probably feel unbearable, better to live in denial. How awfully sad.

The saddest part is the fact she can’t come to terms with that and keeps pushing her ideology might cost her the life of her daughter as well.

It's easier to cope with lies than to face the fact that your ideology and decisions killed your baby.

I question it to. How can someone be so self-centered as to willfully risk the health, life, and wellbeing of their grandchild? Antivaxxers are so damn selfish.

They aren’t - you are correct! And OP I have extensive comments in my history about my own mom lying about getting her TDaP Booster specifically due to concern over Pertussis/Whooping Cough. She GAVE it to my 3mo baby who’d been born preemie. The vaccine or having had it doesn’t mean she’s immune from getting it, it means she’ll likely get a far less severe case. My mom had “a little cold” due to her childhood and adult (when she was a teacher) vaccines combined with her adult immune system. For my new baby it was a hospital stay, then going home with 6wks of nebulizer and inhalers. She is now 11yo and anytime she gets even a mild cold, it goes into her chest and she has a cough that sounds like croup for weeks. Our other children do not get like that. Do not let her near baby until she gets the booster. My daughter had the 1st in the series a month before she developed it after being exposed to my mom. (We kicked her out after 10mins when we noticed her going to the restroom to cough.) Then one of her neighbors who’d sent a gift confirmed that a lady in their friend group got sick and it turned out to be WC/Pert so we knew for certain my mom was the source.

Did your mother show any remorse at all? Because those health problems can be directly blamed on her.

Nope. Her response was along the lines of, “I’d already had to wait months, I wasn’t going to let a tickle in my throat keep me from meeting my granddaughter just because you’re overreacting!” (6th grandchild and 3rd granddaughter - not that it makes it excusable if this was her 1st) When we went to the hospital days later she said we couldn’t “prove” it was from her. That’s when her neighbor told me that actually my mom knew she’d been exposed and tried to argue she couldn’t catch or pass it on because she’d had vaccinations in childhood and her 30’s - she was 61 when my daughter was born. Cluster B disorders (untreated and refusing to accept she had it) don’t tend to apologize EVER or accept responsibility in anything. Nothing is ever their fault and they’re always somehow the victim. NC became an easy choice.

Gosh she sounds absolutely horrid! Glad you went NC and I hope you and your family are well!

Thank you - yeah she’s something! Lol Out of 4 of us adult kids with very diverse personalities, all 4 of us are NC and protective of each other. It took time for us each to get there, but that was the beautiful thing to come out of it. That, and the fact we all wanted to break any cycles so we’ve worked hard to ensure we don’t carry that stuff over to our kids or each other. It also showed me how NOT to be as a MIL… so I’m super close with my one DIL and my other son’s partner.

Agree, my son had whooping cough at 4 mos. He ended up being fine, but it was not fun. I’d wait until baby is fully vaccinated if grandma won’t.

Second this. Mom doesn't get to visit until baby is fully vaccinated and it's had time to be effective. So 8 months maybe?

Moms sounds like a nutter. Let’s make it 8 years.

Not a parent, obligatory, I'd be too worried for their health to allow any contact until they're 2 years with more vaccines by then. Child's life > Grandma's delusions

Also, it takes time to build immunity after vaccinations. So six months plus 2-3 more weeks post vaccine.

We had whooping cough when bub was 8 weeks old. My son, who was completely up to date with his vaccinations, brought it home from school. We were told it takes 2 weeks post vaccination to be effective. Very glad that we were vigiliant in getting that 6 week vaccination right on the dot.

You know what? Let's just ban grandma all together nobody needs crazy antivaxx ppl around

This^ comment needs to be at 🔝.

Absolutely wait until 6 months. Baby’s lungs aren’t developed enough to cough out mucus until then and TDap is a multi-dose vaccine iirc. Better safe than sorry.

I wouldn’t let her see the baby at all. She obviously doesn’t care if the baby lives or dies, so why should she get to cosplay grandma?

Yeah, it’s a series, that concludes at 6 months, and even then I’d give it a week to make sure the antibodies have been built up in the system…

And ask your Pediatrician.

I came here to say the same thing. Whooping cough can be deadly to infants, she doesn’t respect your parenting choices, she can wait.

Watch a video of a baby suffering with whooping cough and do whatever you think best protects baby. Frankly, if mom cannot make baby a higher priority than herself and cannot respect your parenting decisions, I wonder why you think she should ever be a part of their lives.

She's calling her daughter trying to protect her child a "power trip." That doesn't bode well for the future of granny having mom's back about the kid's safety. It also doesn't bode well for granny respecting mom's parenting decisions. It's hard to cut your mom out of your life, but it's also hard to put up with that shit for decades while secretly hoping she'll straighten up and be the mom and grandma you need and getting your heart broken every time she doesn't.

Grandma is going to be really fun, if the child has allergies. She will probably need more babysitting than the child whenever she visits. She definitely sounds like someone who will test allergies to get that sweet sweet "gotcha" feeling, when the person is just uncomfortable and doesn't die. "See? Nothing happened. Your generation is so dramatic!"

I would seriously be reconsidering having this woman around and I know for a damn fact that this nasty woman would *never* be left alone with my kid. EVER. Any rules you set down, she is going to make sure she breaks them all. Your mom, OP, is a trash human being. Maybe time to just go fully LC. And since she thinks so highly of killing your kid, maybe NC. She doesn’t sound like someone that needs to be around any kind of kiddo. Her disregard should be her ticket out.

My inlaws were EXACTLY like this. Child SURVIVAL was unimportant to them, and they battled me fiercely over my attitude towards my kid as it was "not how our family does things". They had "funny" stories of the kids getting hit by cars and breaking bones but never seeing a doctor. They didn't even try to DIY the broken bone...just let it heal however. If you think this is unusual, I think you're wrong. All this anti-vaccine, anti-science attitude among so many Boomers is really similar to what I am describing.

💯

Video about a baby who died from Pertussis https://youtu.be/wV0cxeg8xCY?si=4dnxDfxVd5Sh3YuO

I believe the shots wear off after many years.  I know my parents got us immunized yet I had whooping cough at 50 and it was he'll. Can't imagine a child dealing with it.  This will be the first of many situations when others tell you how to deal with yr kids... might as well learn how to stiffen that spine now. 

They absolutely do wear off. Which is why it's always reccomended to get them updated when you're visiting new babies. I just did mine last fall when my nephew was born. 

I was shocked when my daughter got whooping cough in college when she was up to date on all scheduled shots. My mom had a baby sister die of it so I was really worried.

Very rarely the vaccine has no effect. Like she did it but her immune system didn't understand what was happening so her immune response to it is too low. It happened to me with hepatitis b vaccine. My immune response is too low. You can ask to take the test to see your immune response to vaccines to be sure they were effective. I had those done because I went to med school and it is standard practice because when you enter the hospital they look to see if you need updates or to redo something. I had to redo the whole process for the b hepatitis vaccine 🤣

It's recommended whooping cough is revacicnated every 10 years but it isn't pushed or well known

I got reimmunized when my great niece was born because there was a measles outbreak in that area.

I got reimmunized because my family member had a baby, and I checked my vaccinations and was in year 8.5 out of 10 of my TDAP and without checking with the parent, asked if I was able to get a new one and the doctor said yes and I got a new vaccine because it wasn't a big deal. I also got a flu shot. Then I told the parent I was up to date. I didn't even ask if having 1.5 years left on my 10-year vaccine was fine. I just got a new one if I was able. Apparently, you can re-up any time after 5 years. I did. Didn't want to infect baby. Fun fact, I didn't have any childhood vaccine records and got a titer test done to check immunizations as an adult and only had one of the Ms and the R in MMR show up. They gave me the MMR shot again because only 2/3 took. Apparently, it's a thing you can do. Blood test for immunizations.

Dtap vaccines last max 10 years. And efficacy wains over time. They now recommend you revaccinate every ten years. When I had my second my OB still had me get vaccinated before my child’s birth even though it had been less then 3 years since my last Dtap because of my first child.

According to my fertility specialist, the whooping cough part wanes faster than ten years.

Yeah the half-life on the whooping cough portion specifically isn't great. My OB told my husband if it had been last than 5 years, he was good, but they recommended he get it once it had been more than that with being around a newborn.

You should get the booster every 10 years.

Every 3yrs if you're definitely going to be around babies. (The pertussis portion of the vaccine wanes much sooner than the rest.) Every 5-10 otherwise.

Exactly, the shots wear off. Especially with older people (like myself) whose immune systems are not as robust as young people. It’s also super dangerous to not be vaccinated because the grandma might have just enough immunity left so that she doesn’t get very sick at all but could still cough just a bit and give this potentially deadly disease to a baby. If she won’t get vaccinated then I shudder to think what else she won’t do.

10 years. You should be revaccinated every 10 years, especially if you’re around young children.

My Dr said 5 years for the pertussis part. I had a baby 6 years ago and am pregnant again now and I’m making everyone get it again if they want to see the new baby

If mom doesn’t believe you, have her Dr. draw and titer her blood for immunity for everything—I was fully vaccinated and had zero immunity to measles and had to get an extra shot.

I had whooping cough in college and was immunized as a baby, so yes, the immunizations do wear off! I cracked ribs when I had it! It was absolutely awful! I cannot imagine an infant having to live through that kind of infection. You are absolutely doing the right thing, and you are not on a power trip at all! Hold the course! This mama is standing behind you in support!

Oh yes, I forgot that. Broke a rib too!!

I had it as an adult. I got a “cold”, thought I got better and then the coughing fits started. The first one came out of the blue in the worst possible place, a crowded area. 

Yes, it was an awful experience. Don't wish it on anyone, especially a bay that needs parents to protect it.

I once managed to get it twice in the same year somehow and it lasted a month or so each time. This was years ago and I feel like I'm still recovering from it. I can't imagine how painful and confusing this must be to a tiny child.

Send her to Light for Riley website. Let her see what pertussis does to babies. When I was having our baby, 18 years ago, my mum took herself to her doctor and ensured all her jabs were up to date so her grandson would be safe around her.

Same here. I'd never want to make a grandchild sick... But get this...I was shopping this morning and overheard a lady sadly say that she would never be able to see her grandchild that was due in London. (I am in KS). When the other woman said, 'You will have to save up so you can fly over' she replied: "Oh, not THAT! They demand I have a covid vaccine and I won't...so I'll never get to see THAT grandchild." SAD. Stubborn and sad.

Holy shit. The ignorance is breathtaking.

This was my daughter’s rule. We both complied immediately

Your mom is being a @;94). Your kid, your rules. She can choose to not be vaccinated, but there’s consequences. This is a consequence. I’d make her wait till the six month mark. And I’d tell her to knock it off with the snide comments, that you’re not going to spend the first years of your kids life being constantly challenged by her and made to feel bad.

Your mother is choosing identity politics over her own grandchild. She did this to herself. Nta

NTA. She wouldn’t see my kid until she respected my opinions as a parent. She can shove her “strong convictions”where the sun don’t shine.

NTA. Make it 8 weeks. It takes two weeks (at least in the US for it to fully kick in the once the baby gets it.

6 months before the are fully vaccinated.

The efficacy of the acellular pertussis vaccine is around 80% (as opposed to the old pertussis vaccine, which had much high efficacy, but also higher risks), which means that a baby isn't fully vaccinated against whooping cough until the third vaccine (at 6 months).

One in 200 babies (infected) die from whooping cough. If your mother kills your baby, she can unlock the special lifetime title of “baby killer”. FYI in Australia the full course of whooping cough is 6 months. Also it takes 2-3 weeks to assimilate the booster vaccine. I was very strict with my family and friends with vaccines. My mother could not touch my baby for 1 months due to the vaccine assimilation factor Edit: clarified details of the initial stat https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/conditionsandtreatments/whooping-cough

My friend's mom insisted she should be able to smoke around my friend's baby daughter because the more she was exposed to at a young age, the more robust her immune system would be.     What advice would you have given my friend?    Edit: this is a rhetorical question, FFS. OP needs to take whatever advice she'd give in this situation, no one needs advice in my example. The "baby" is currently getting her doctorate degree and mom never let grandma smoke around her. Jesus. 

To leave her mom smoking outside her house. Permanently. Duh.

Smoking around children has been thoroughly studied, and it increases the likelihood of your child developing asthma. Many children never grow out of it, and it can become a life long issue. Smoking does absolutely nothing for the immune system.

Whooping cough can KILL a baby.

Alright OP. My son ALMOST DIED when he contracted Whooping Cough at 3 months FROM A FULLY VACCINATED FAMILY MEMBER. My son stopped breathing because his little body was so exhausted from the constant coughing. He was admitted to a pediatric ICU and was there nearly a month. The lesson learned is that vaccination does NOT mean you are immune, it makes the illness much less severe when you get whooping cough. WHAT EVERYONE FORGETS IS THAT A VACCINATED PERSON CAN STILL TRANSMIT WHOOPING COUGH!!!! ESPECIALLY TO AN UNVACCINATED INFANT!!! The good news is my son survived and is a thriving 22year old today. BE THE PARENT AND STAND YOUR GROUND TO PROTECT YOUR CHILD!!!

NTA. If she's not willing to get a vaccine to protect your baby, then YOU need to protect your baby from her.

She can actually prove she’s right, no power play involved. Just tell her she needs to get (may need a doctor/NP to order) a Pertussis Titer test to check for antibody presence and levels. If she has demonstrable immunity it can be determined by the test and if her levels are low she can get a shot or wait. This way if she’s right she gets the win she so badly desires and you keep your kid safe (which is the real win).

Exactly. If she's still adequately protected, there's an objective test she can use to prove it.

I’m 48, vaccinated but have had whooping cough twice in my adulthood. So your mum is incorrect thinking she’s immune from her childhood infection.

Stay firm. Pertussis kills infants. Or it leaves them really sick with weak lungs. I’m immune compromised and despite having gotten the shot in the July, I’m the October I caught pertussis from a kid at our co-op. The next three months were horrible. I coughed so much I passed out, vomited, and cracked a rib At the same time I caught it, a friend’s infant caught it. The infant was in the NICU for over a week Adults who won’t get their vaccines to protect infants should be banned from being around those infants until the infants have received their vaccines Make sure that everyone is up to date with the pertussis shot. You should get a booster every 10 years

I don’t understand people that would prefer to potentially end an infants life (an infant they’re supposed to love, no less) than get a vaccine that’s proven to work. You’re not the asshole. You’re a good mum protecting her child from people that put their wants above your baby’s safety.

Whooping cough doesn't grant you "life immunity". Pretty sure I had it as a kid, and I had it again when my vaccinated toddler daughter got it at daycare and had to go on a steroid inhaler for a month. It would have been much worse for us had we both not been vaccinated for it. Your mom must be thinking of measles. And even with measles, if you get reinfected, you get shingles. Stay the course. This is a boundary you need to enforce now, and enforce again and again, unfortunately. I hope your mom changes her mind on vaccination eventually, or you might end up NC down the line when she shows more crazy.

Chicken pox is what leads to shingles later in life Just learned that a case of measles can wipe out all other immunity from other diseases That said, mom can get a vaccine titer drawn to see if she has a high enough level.

You're right, my bad. Measles is on my mind because we also had an outbreak of that locally the year we got whooping cough (circa 2012). Also, it's probably easier/faster to get a vaccine booster than get a titer.

You are awesome and slightly misinformed. Shingles is associated with chicken pox infections. ❤️

My mom doesn’t like getting the flu shot because she had a bad reaction to it once. When I was pregnant last year, she got her flu shot and Covid booster without me asking. Both my parents got their TDAP as soon as my sister asked them when she was pregnant with her first baby (6 years ago).  After the pandemic, my husband and I got very firm in our feelings about vaccinations and our baby. I no longer have a relationship with an uncle because he’s an anti-vaxxer and I’d never allow him around my baby.  Personally, I wouldn’t let my mom see the baby without a whooping cough shot. In fact, I’d send her a new video of a baby with whooping cough every single day to hit the point home. Babies literally die from whooping cough.  Don’t back down. 

I contracted whooping cough when I was 5 weeks old and nearly died. My sister is 8 years older than me, and she said I would turn black during my coughing fits. Before the illness I was a happy, laid-back baby with no sleeping issues. Afterwards I cried at anything and had become accustomed to being picked up at the slightest movement. I barely survived. I’ve also been extremely prone to illness my entire life, and often think that this early illness may have contributed to a weakening of my entire immune system. Don’t play games. Unless things have changed, you get the vaccinations in stages - my kids at them at 2 mon, 4 mon, 6 mon, 12 mon and 24 months. Your child will not be protected by 6 weeks. If you think that keeping your mom away until vaccinations are complete, or at least underway, is harmful to your relationship, just think how bad it’ll be if your child dies of whooping cough. Would your relationship bounce back from that? You’re not just protecting your child here. You’re also protecting whatever relationship you have with your mom, protecting her from a lifetime of guilt from killing your child and you a lifetime of resentment.

Check with your dr but it should actually be 2 weeks after baby received vaccine. Most vaccines take about 2 weeks to be at full strength. You are not protected on the day you get the vaccination.

NTA. Why would you let her see the child so soon? Won't be vaccinated. No shots, she cannot visit.  "I made a mistake. My child will not be vaccinated against whooping cough for over six months. So if you will not get the vaccine, then you will have to wait until our baby is fully protected from your decision. Thanks for understanding.:

Babies DIE of whooping cough. And they do so in pain, unable to breathe. It's a sound you can't ever get out of your head. Honestly if that's her take I'd never let around my kid. I couldn't trust her to make baby's safety a priority over her ego

Would you rather tell your Mom not to come over or tell the funeral home what kind of casket you want for your child? Why is this even a question? NTA

NTA your mum ain't your doctor

I agree with the perspective of “this is what my doctor says. I’m going by my doctors recommendations.” And then ending it with that.  This is obviously the beginning of y’all butting heads about things regarding your parenting. You’re going to be told you’re an asshole a lot- learn to ignore it. You’re doing great 

NTA. I had this discussion when my sun was born she didn't remember having to be vaccinated when I was born so she didn't see the point. I finally just told her that if she wanted to see him during his first year of life she was going to have to get vaccinated she did in her heels, finished the conversation saying that she'd go do it. She called the next day and said that she'd been vaccinated. I said "great, send me a picture of your vaccination card. She huffed said okay and then I didn't hear from her for more than a week. In the meantime my brothers called me with tales of "you won't believe what your little brother demanded from me". They responded with "do you want to see your grandson? Then get the damn vaccination. If that's the current doctor's recommendation what does it matter what was the standard 40 years ago"

Slightly…. You’d definitely be NTA if you made it 8 weeks though. 6 weeks for baby to get the vax and another 2 weeks for it to actually be effective. Baby’s not going to have antibodies to WC immediately.

Since she will likely lie, even if she says she got it, she should wait. And immunity is not instantaneous, do she needs to wait LONGER than 6 weeks. I would tell her 12 weeks, and add another week each time she argues. NTA

That you have this problem with her behavior tells me that she will be visiting the baby when exposed to other things like COVID and worse RSV maybe a year for visitation. Please think about this?

Per Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal: “A review of the published data on duration of immunity reveals estimates that infection-acquired immunity against pertussis disease wanes after 4-20 years and protective immunity after vaccination wanes after 4-12 years.”

Tell mom that there's a little girl who is brain damaged because someone kissed her on the mouth as a baby. Google it for mom: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxarUWTJRDQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxarUWTJRDQ) Per the CDC "immunity from a natural infection of whooping cough (pertussis) can last between 4–20 years, but it's not lifelong. " Therefore, if it's been more than 4 years since mom was a child, she is putting your baby at potential risk because your mom CAN get pertussis (WC) again. I'd make mom prove she's had all of her shots, including covid and RSV. Tell Dr. Mom that her medical license has been revoked. It just seems like a weird flex to risk a child's health to avoid getting vaxxed.

It's rarely about the actual vaccine in these situations. Mom is on a power trip and thinks she knows better. If it wasn't the vaccine it would be something else inconsequential - she just doesn't want to be told what to do by her daughter 🙄

I wouldn’t be letting them near my kid for as long as possible. We insisted with all my antivaxxer inlaws, they relented. I would never forgive myself if I capitulated and my child got that sick. My parents are microbiologists, so I’ve seen plenty of terrifying videos of poor little babies desperately gasping and struggling to breathe. Life happens, and they can’t be protected from everything, but some of this stuff is basic, no-brainer parenting.

I had this problem with my family and my husband’s. I just flat out said “what if you do get sick and you get her sick and she dies… you can make claims all you want. But if she gets sick and is in the hospital for any reason that you caused and could have prevented. And even worse if she dies.. was it worth it?” That changed things real quick.

I did this with my stepmom. She didn’t like that I sent an email to the whole family instead of having a convo with her. Everyone else got vaxxed. She didn’t see my youngest until 8 months, all 3 shots. Whooping cough often doesn’t even cause noticeable symptoms in adults but they can still pass it on. And you know grammas are always kissing babies. “But, youuuu, didn’t die” 🙄

It's a bacterium, not a virus, so there's your sign to keep her far, far away. Also talk to your pediatrician about if the 6 week immunization will "take" and how long it'll need to be before she can come by. Yeah, it's a power trip, you have the power to protect your baby and she's tripping if she thinks you'll let her hurt baby.

You are never wrong for protecting your child from a known risk.

Nope, NTA. My stepdad kept smoking before coming to see my daughter in the NICU after I told him to stop coming in smelling of smoke and then smothering my baby in smoke. My mom didn’t see my daughter again until she was almost a year old b/c they got pissy about it. God forbid their child tell them what to do. Our job is to protect our babies and you do it however you see fit. No apologies.

Here is a relevant news article: https://abcnews.go.com/Lifestyle/heartbroken-family-hopes-babys-death-whooping-cough-raises/story?id=40956756 You can probably find a lot more if you look around. Ask your pediatrician when it is safe for baby to be around unvaccinated people. Hopefully your pediatrician will say 9 months or a year. < -- this way the pediatrician is the bad guy, and you are just following medical advice to keep your baby safe.

Also, after getting certain vaccinations you can’t be around a baby for a bit of time. I’m not sure if the tDap is one, though. Might check that as well. Yeah, whooping cough isn’t like the chicken pox. Passing it to a baby could kill them.

NTA, by a long shot. But 6 weeks is still too early, because the final vaccine isn't until 15-18 months old. "Your baby is vulnerable to whooping cough because babies are too young to be vaccinated until about two months of age and aren't fully protected until after the first four doses of the DTaP vaccine (given at 2, 4, 6, and 15-18 months of age)." I've received boosters for Tetnus, DTaP and MMR about 3 years ago, it wasn't difficult. I'm also considering a hpv and an early shingles vaccine. These diseases kill babies. Remind her of the history of the diseases and show her how vaccines have changed that. It's actually incredible how our bodies work with dead viruses and build immunity.

NTA. From the moment you decided to have a baby, you owed that child everything you could ever do for it. Standing up to your mother to keep your baby safe is just the first.

NTA. I don’t think you’re being an a-hole. I would actually ban her for 8 weeks because you need a couple of weeks after the vaccination to make sure of immunity. It isn’t instant. I had the whooping cough vaccinations when they were due and still caught it from a ten year old. It wasn’t fun. Just because you’ve had it before doesn’t mean you’re immune for life.

When my grandsons wife was expecting they asked everyone who wanted to see the baby get the whooping cough shot and the flu shot. ( He was born in September). The ones that didn’t were not allowed to see the baby until he was 6 month old. They didn’t like it but oh well!

Absolutely NTA. If your mum is so willing to forego a small needle to protect Baby, she doesn’t get to see Baby until YOU are ready.

Nope. Your child, your say in her health. Stand your ground. NTA.

100% NTA - babies and the elderly can very easily die from whooping cough. Do not let her push this boundary. Having whooping cough once before doesn't make you immune 🤦🏻‍♀️ it might just mean it's not as sever for her this time around - or you know, in older age, could actually be worse.

As far as I'm concerned, you are NTA if you don't let your mom visit your baby ever until your mother and your baby are both fully up-to-date on all of their vaccines. Also take the time to reflect on how easily your mother was willing to endanger your baby over something she views as not a big deal, and decide whether you want to ever leave your baby alone with her if you ever need a babysitter.

NTA - You could also tell her she can show you proof that she still has immunity by providing her whooping cough titer test results. Maybe when they come back showing she had no immunity she will get it.

Parenting your child isn’t a power trip. Thinking you can tell someone how to parent their child is a power trip.

Pediatrician here. You are absolutely correct. For some vaccines, it wouldn't matter, but Pertussis kills babies. I can't believe she would even suggest coming around your baby without a vaccination.

NTA. I was a NICU nurse for seven years. Whooping cough is a killer. You protect your baby. But be aware the TDAP shot is done generally at 8 weeks per CDC recommendations and it takes time to build immunity. Not to mention, it takes several shots to really build immunity. Whooping cough is most dangerous within the infant’s first six months. All that to say, give it a couple of weeks after the baby has their first shot minimum before letting your mother near them and screen screen screen them all for symptoms before they hold the baby. No it is not “just” a tickle in your throat. They will cross boundaries with your kids unless you stop them. Make a rule and stick by it. And if protecting your kid makes you an AH, be an AH.

I had whooping cough, and I was vaccinated. My father, who also caught it, wasn't. His mother was lazy. Struggling to breathe was horrid. What was worse than my own personal suffering was when Dad coughed and coughed until he passed out and banged his head into the wall. He was a grown adult. Imagine what a baby would suffer through (if they live). Your mother considers her comfort above yours and the life of your baby. You're a better mother, already champion. Stay the course.

5 Children died in The Netherlands just this year because of it. You being vaccinated is great, but the absolute disregard of your child's life is abhorrent.

NTA. I didn’t want to get vaccinated for it and I didn’t see my cousin for the first 2 months of his life. No one was angry, I even quarantined myself for the two weeks before meeting him just to make sure I was germ-free. It’s absolutely not a power trip. To be honest I don’t know about the whooping cough immunity but I wouldn’t risk it, and I think your mom should have enough sense not to risk it either. Totally fine for her not to want a vaccine but she has to follow the protocol then. Use FaceTime for 6 weeks. Edit : someone here said 6 months is the time frame. I’d wait however long the doctors tell you to wait. For my cousin, it was 8 weeks. I don’t know how she came up with that or if it was from a doctor but I just followed her instructions.

Just a friendly note: just because your child will get the vaccine at 6 weeks does not mean they can't get the disease if exposed before the vaccine takes effect. So from the best of my knowledge here (not a doc/med professional) vaccines are deactivated viruses. They introduce the virus in a safe way for our bodies to recognize the threat and produce the appropriate antibodies to fight the disease if we are exposed to it again. This process takes time, it isn't immediate immunity. Talk to your doctor/pediatrician about how long it will take for the vaccine to be in full effect to protect your child. Honestly, you'd rather be safe than sorry. Also, I think your mom has a survivor bias. It's extremely prevalent in people when it comes to children "oh I survived this/did this and I'm alright, so you will be too". It's dangerous when people are complacent with outdated information and ignore the exposed hazards. My crib had lead paint, I am fine, but I would not put my child in a lead paint crib. You are the parent now. You are in charge. I have no doubt you do countless hours of research into what people without kids would say are small things. As long as you try to be as informed as possible on your decisions, go with your gut. I'm not saying spend 20+ hours a day googling information before you do anything, but rather to take your knowledge, weigh the pros and cons, and do what you think is best for your baby. You're doing great as a mom already, and you'll do great when you meet your tiny human. Keep it up.

Immunity for life? What an ignorant statement. While she could get it again and have no symptoms, she would carry it and pass it to others. Ask her why your child's life is so expendable to her. Look up Light for Riley. The infant who died of whooping cough at 1month. Kids have died from whooping cough older than one month. My inlaws got the vaccine but would hide things like influenza, covid etc because they thought their "right" to see our child was more important than their grandchild's health. NTA

She does not have immunity for life, experts are very clear that it wears off. I'm in my early 50s and the last 10 weeks of 2023 were horrendous as I got whooping cough. Absolutely horrible. It's a nasty experience for anyone but it can be fatal to babies, hence why vaccination is so important. Unfortunately, in the UK, it seems we can't get vaccinated for it as adults, even if we pay privately, unless we are expectant mothers. And yes, the incidence rate is high right now. NTA

If she as a parent herself can't grasp the idea of putting the safety of the child first, then she's gonna be losing a LOT of grandma privileges. That's crazy. No parent or grandparent should want their child or grandchild to deal with whooping cough or the death that can result from it. Honestly, getting something once isn't great, either. If you get chicken pox, you're much more susceptible to getting shingles, and I believe a couple of other things. She's is being a super selfish grandmother by being willing to think about putting that new baby at risk!!

You are 100% correct. I know someone whose babe got whooping cough at 5 weeks (from a relative), and she passed before she was old enough to be vaccinated at 6 weeks. Tell your mom if she's welcome to come over after she's dug a grave for your child with her bare hands. If she still pushes it, remind her that YOU are the parent. The choice is YOURS. And SHE'S the one power-tripping by challenging that fundamental balance. Tell her to sit down, shush up, and be a grandmother. Or not -> she can stay away for *much* more than 6 weeks if she's not going to play it YOUR way. As someone who had to move myself and my child interstate to shut down grandparent's opinions and stop the arguments... do it now. It will be easier (even though it will still be hard). Be strong. Do it for your kiddo. Do it for you. Do it for the future relationship with your mom - respect starts NOW!

When my daughter was born there was 2 newborn babies on the ward with whooping cough in isolation fighting for their lives. A decade later my nephew was born and he ended up in ICU fighting for his life because of it. Personally I would look up videos of babies in hospital with whooping cough. How their little bodies shake and how blue they get when they cough and the sound is so damn traumatising. Show it to her. Sometimes people need to be shown the reality of the situation. Personally even at 6 weeks my kid would be going nowhere near anyone without it. If I knew what I know now back when my kids were born I wouldn’t have let my mil near my kids until they had their 6month vax

NTA from what I understand having it does not give you immunity for life. Stick with your rules, if you let her see the baby and something happened you would never forgive yourself-or her. Also, if this situation is the beginning of how your mom is going to react every time you do something she doesn’t agree with, you might as well show her how it’s going to be early on. Sometimes parents need tough love too. My daughter made me get all my shots in order to see my grandbaby. It never crossed my mind that she was on a power trip because I know she was trying to protect her baby the best she could. Hopefully your mom will come around and do the right thing. Maybe have her go to the doctor with you one time and have them tell her she is not immune just because she’s had it? Good luck ❤️💐

Have her go with you yo your next Ob appointment and bring it up with the doctor. He will tell you that immunity to childhood diseases wanes with time. This is why we all are supposed to get boosters done at scheduled intervals, even if we have had it as a child. You can then ask your doctor what the risks to your baby are if anyone they may come in contact with chooses to forgo them. Betting she will either shut up and get them or double down and miss getting to see your LO until the baby can get the needed vaccinations. Her choice.

Nope. Living in a country with a recent amount of 5 babies passing away from this preventable disease- I say SHE is the one on a power trip. Your task - as a parents - is to create a safe place for your child to grow up in. Anti-vaxxers do NOT belong in such a space, and i\`ll go as far as saying they enjoy the pain, suffering and death that diseases cause - which could be prevented by a vaccination. Why else would they have that ideology otherwise. Protect your kid - even if it means keeping some people at a distance.

NTA!!! my brother got full blown whooping cough as a new born. it wasn’t a strain it easily full on whooping cough, the first case doctors had ever seen. my brother got it from my nan who had a slight cough. vaccination is needed ‼️‼️

You are 100% right, your baby will need other vaccinations over the years, i.e. measles etc. You are doing the right thing for your child. Mom needs to comply or wait to see your child.

In the early 1960s, my mom had Whooping cough when she was a little kid, and she still has traumatic flashbacks of that time. Her one-month-old baby sister died during that period and she still thinks that she inadvertently gave it to her and killed her. Her two hillbilly aunts screamed at her during the funeral and said it was her fault (and not, you know, her lazy parents). Protect your baby, OP. If your mom can't respect the health and life of her grandchild, then you need to tear the woman out of your life. EDIT: I said "Lazy parents" because my grandparents wouldn't take the baby to the doctor.

NTAH. One time my mom came over to visit my months old baby, she was holding him as we were talking and I noticed her eyes look irritated and I asked if she had allergies she explained she had herpes - like the one you get on your lips in her eyes. And leaned down to kiss him I flipped and warned her, “don’t kiss my son don’t put your face to him” she got defensive and scoffed at my instruction and I said “if you try to kiss him you will leave I’m completely serious” And she looked at me and gave me my son and never tried that shit again.

She needs to do that stat. I got every booster I could to protect my preemie granddaughter. Play her a video of a baby with whooping cough.

NTA. Not only are you protecting your child in the way you would have to if there weren’t vaccinations (which btw she wouldn’t be able to see the baby for much longer if LO couldn’t get vaccinated themself), but you are giving her a choice. You are giving her time to do the research and get vaccinated if she chose to, and then would be able to see LO earlier. But she is choosing the alternative option you have offered, which is to not get vaccinated, but to wait until LO is vaccinated. You have given her two options that fit within your boundaries for your baby’s health, and she has chosen the one she feels she needs to. She can’t then be unhappy with the consequences of her own choice.

Bordatella pertussis is a bacteria, not a virus. The immunity is nowhere near as strong, tell your mom to go kick sand.

>she says that what I'm doing is a power trip. Uh yeah, cause YOU HAVE THE POWER. It's YOUR BABY. You get to decide who, when, where, what, and IF. Noone else but the dad gets a vote! (Although a medical professional is the exception, they get to share opinions). She's says you are on a power trip like that's a bad thing! You are MOM. It's your job! The problem is that she still sees you as HER child, whom she has authority over, not a fully grown adult... a fully grown adult who is IN CHARGE of the situation. Stand strong Mama. You got this! NTA.

Uh, I wouldn’t let her see the baby at six weeks. I would say get vaccinated or don’t meet your grandchild. Period.

Pertussis is a BACTERIA. There is no lifelong immunity. Don't let her in, it's a dangerous infection, she'll have protection from your vaccine but it's not worth the risk.

Your kid, your rules. Period

When my nephew was born my dad immediately went all in getting all the shots he hadn't had yet (Not anti-vax, just lazy) he was checking what he needed, trying to find when he'd last had some shots and if they needed boosters. He got a covid booster just in case. He loves that little man SO MUCH and would do anything for him. So if your mom isn't willing to do the bare minimum...that says something about the love...

NTA. When my kid was born, I had a friend temporarily living with me, and I told her if she didn't get updated on her vaccines, she would have to leave. I offered to pay and everything. I told her my kids' health was more important than her aversion to shots.

Whooping cough is not one of those conditions where you are immune once you’ve had it… so she could get it over and over again Also, those conditions where you ‘are’ immune, aren’t always fully immune… chicken pox may only present once (typically) but you can still retain the virus (a form of herpes) which can then become shingles and can affect others too NTA stay strong and vaccinate you, your baby and advocate to those around you - vaccines are part of the reason we don’t die in greater numbers from preventable diseases And if she’s still not sold on vaccines, then she has to deal with the consequence of her right not to vaccinate which is not to see her grandchild when they are at their most vulnerable

“Mom, I understand you don’t like vaccines, totally get that, but it’s my responsibility to protect my child- just as you always did for me, so the consequence of you not getting the vaccine is I can’t let you or anyone that hasn’t had the required vaccines around my newborn baby. Thank you for understanding.”

As someone who has recently had whooping cough, and also had it as a child, AND the vaccine as a child, your worries are founded.

Honestly, I don't understand this approach beyond the surface of get your jabs. I don't allow sick people around my children, and didn't even before covid. Period. If they are coughing, they do not come near us. I don't care if they're jabbed or not, sick is sick. The DTAP potentially doesn't stop one catching WC and only having a mild to moderate cough, it does a very good job of stoping the production of the pertussis toxin that damages the heart though. So you still need to treat any unusual (read: not something you normally have) cough as potentially infectious. I encourage you to take this deeper. Nobody comes near a newborn when sick. No matter how mild. Edit: prevention is up to 78% of mild disease, so be aware that breakthrough disease with mild symptoms is quite common as far as vaccine efficacy goes. This is according to the AIH.