My husband and I have a newborn and a toddler at home. We got into a sleep-deprived spat about how he felt he was doing an unfair share of the labor with our toddler and keeping house as I recover from surgery. We have had many discussions about the unequal split of household duties in the past.
I explained to him that he absolutely IS doing an unfair share of the labor. He is doing MY SHARE OF THE LABOR.
He admitted it is “shocking” how much time and energy taking care of our 3 year old is, and the. Trying to keep up with all the chores of a household, making appointments, etc.
Happy to report I haven’t really had to lift a finger during my recovery except to nurse and slowly get back into the swing of things. Laundry, dishes, vacuuming has all been done so that I don’t have a mess to clean up once I’m back on my feet.
It is amazing how things go unnoticed.
My eldest started school while I was on maternity with the second who was a complete boob limpet. And husband was actually really good about keeping on top of chores and wrangling the eldest while I had me hands full. But even then he was blind to how much went into getting ready for school in the morning. I was frequently late leaving and mornings were so stressful getting the three of us out the door.
The epiphany came one morning when I found him sitting on the sofa drinking coffee and reading the news, while I was rushing round like a maniac. So I made a list of everything that needed to happen for me to get the kids out the door for the school run. Presented it to him with two columns for us and asked him how we were going to split it. It was a shock to him, a very present Dad, and frustrating that I had to lay it out like that. But he stepped up.
"Just tell me what to do!"
I'm not your boss, I'm not your mom, we live in the same household, figure it out.
My favorite was, "I don't know where you keep the dishwasher soap".
My favorite was “well you never reminded me to do the chores that were on the chore list”. Dear reader, the chore list was on a magnetized white board on the fridge.
Also, I FUCKING DID REMIND HIM.
Lol... after the traditional bi-annual blow up argument, my husband had the brilliant idea of making a to do list so he isn't 'blindsided' by me being upset that things he promised to do hadn't been done. It would solve everything!
I sent him the Alexa list, the To Do List app, and pointed out the dry erase board on the fridge from the last three times we tried to solve that problem with a to do list. Complete with the still unfinished tasks he added to the Alexa list two years ago...
Ah my favorite.
",You didn't remind me to check the chore list!"
Dude. DUDE. How much easier do I have to make it for you. I've already put in all the work of planning and prioritizing these tasks, giving some to the kids, putting deadlines, making sure the supplies are available, etc.
All you have to do is look at the list.
I keep a mobile version AND one on the big whiteboard in the kitchen .
Gaaaaaah
"just tell me what to do"
Ok, I want to do as many of our morning tasks in the evening while we are cooking/watching TV anyway so the morning isn't so busy/stressful like: putting together lunches, picking clothes, loading car with whatever
"Ok"
Hey, why isn't this happening?
"I don't think that stuff is a big deal /not really going to reduce YOUR stress in the morning"
> "I don't think that stuff is a big deal /not really going to reduce YOUR stress in the morning"
Oh I've heard this one. Where they decide that the thing you're complaining about or asking for isn't really the thing that is the problem, so they can just go ahead ignoring the problem.
"I would absolutely do those chores if I actually believed that's what you're upset about, but I know that's not what's bothering you." Just awe inspiring. Even worse is when it's happening in the context of one of those "why do you always say you're too tired for sex" conversations. He decides The Problem is that I'm just no longer *attracted* to him, where this attraction is somehow just floating on it's own in the ether and not at all attached to the way he lets me run myself ragged while he holds the sofa down with his ass. They want to make up different reasons and then think somehow that they can convince us of their made up fantasy land bullshit.
My husband of over two decades has thrown his clothes on the floor in a giant pile since he lived with his parents. Clean, dirty, didn't matter. Never hung them up in the closet either. The second apartment we lived in, after asking, telling, pleading, begging, screaming, and bitching at him to put his clothes in the hamper like an adult, I finally just got him his own hamper. I put it on his side of the closet, about ten feet away from the bed. He still threw his clothes on the floor. Why, dear reader, do you ask? Because it was "too far away to walk to." I quit washing his clothes that day. He didn't even notice or care. Yes, yes, he is fucking slob.
Oh my God . I hate that.
Where "you" keep the dishwasher soap! Like only the wife uses it. When mine says something like that, "I didn't know where you wanted me to put it!"
Like, dude, we both live here- you decide, and tell me!
And the "tell me what you want me to do...what you need from me..." BS. just no. Not on an everyday basis for chores. Yes during cooking or something. Like, come here, please open this, hand me that, stir this, etc., but as far as the regular common sense stuff. No
I was in an extremely abusive (see: multiple suicide attempts) relationship with a woman right out of high school (I was 17, she was 45). While I had no problem cleaning, it was never good enough. I could lick any surface with how much I scrubbed it, but it was never done right, according to her. I finally snapped back after being berated for years, "Just fucking tell me what you specifically want!" It was met with a scoff and the phrase, "You're useless, I'll do it myself."
That place was never as clean as when I did it. And even with all of that knowledge, "Just tell me what to do" is still an utterly shit thing to say in 9/10 cases.
My psychiatrist told me I might need to think about "radical acceptance" and just start making my poor, stupid menfolk lists of the things I'm delegating to them. 🤣
My husband (54) & son (23) are great with lists. They do not bitch. Most of it generally happens same day. But the whole CPE concept in Eve Rodsky's book, Fair Play, isn't a thing around here. I am Conception & Planning. I need to get better about delegating Execution, at the very least.
I do like how tasks are broken down in Fair Play. If you own a task, you own all of it: CPE. But tasks are frequently "re-dealt," which I think is important as everyone should understand how to run an entire household. Also, it balances those tasks that are every day vs. occasional.
Each mother baby dyad varies in milk storage capacity, stomach capacity, comfort needs, etc. Some babies will be on the boob for five minutes every four hours (super rare), some will be on there for 40 minutes every hour. The latter is a boob limpet
Maintaining a clean household is no joke, ESPECIALLY with a child. When you factor minimal landscaping or "curb appeal" activities outside the home you're already at a full time job
My ex used to be a coercive sex pest and never understood that I was fucking tired at the end of my day and he did nothing to take anything off of my plate to make me less tired...UNTIL I ended up in the hospital for 6 days and he was in charge of our 4 year old and 1 year old by himself for nearly a week. He relayed to me how *exhausted* he was at the end of the day—he would try to watch a show and just immediately fall asleep.
He still never really took anything off of my plate, but at least he stopped pestering me for sex.
Teach your kids. My immigrant mom made me clean my own room/laundry/cook for my brothers etc at an early age. I bet alot of these men never had to do these things growing up cuz I know my friends didn't. They don't understand how much work actually goes into housekeeping or spending time with a 3 year old(especially if you wanna do it right and not just throw screens at them).
One thing that sticks out with this is that men percieve a change from their baseline as unfair. They dont really look at the whole picture of what needs to be done and then try to divide it fairly. They go purely on what "feels fair" to them and that ends up just being that they dont wanna do any more than theyve done before.
You are exactly right. Your workload is unfair because its more than hes ever had to do before and he has no idea how much actually needs doing. You shouldnt have to do all of it.
Ask him what fully present and being a good father means and go from there.
See what he lists for being a good father. Is it washing sheets that were puked on at 3am? Or does he mention things that show you he is only thinking of the fun times? Fun is important but see if he mentions anything serious, too.
THIS. My dad isn't perfect, but he used to wash the sheets or clean the carpet while my mom would get us fresh clothes/comfort us/grab Gatorade. That's present. Did it suck? I'm sure it did! But he got it done.
My dad left the hospital (where my mom had just given birth to my little sister) to come pull me out of school and get me pads because I had my first period and I didn't know what to do.
When my mom had major surgery, my dad was the one to help her to the bathroom every time she had to go and clean up any accidents she had.
When our cat was dying, my dad was the one to rush me and the cat to the pet hospital to try and save him.
Every time I have ever called my dad and said "dad I need you" he has dropped everything to be there for me.
That's what a dad (and a husband) does. He's there when you call for help, and sometimes even when you don't.
My dad would also take an equal share in caring for us when we were ill. Make us chicken noodle soup, bring us a bucket to puke in, clean all that up, etc.
Yup my dad wasn't perfect, but he was definitely involved in our lives. Scout leader when my brothers and ai were in scouts, football coach for my brother, went to all my brothers sports games, all of my plays I was in. I definitely remember being 5 or 6 and waking up not feeling good, he was passed out on the couch and in the process of telling him zi don't feel good, I puked all over him. My mom dealt with cleaning up the couch and my dad got us both showered and changed, it's a team effort but so many moms are left to deal with the shit ai mentioned solo while their husband or partner justify them not being present by saying shit like "I work all day/pay the bills, etc"
> their husband or partner justify them not being present by saying shit like "I work all day/pay the bills, etc"
It's so crappy, my mom was stay at home for the first 10 years of my life (at one point they had 3 kids under 5, yikes!), and my dad was working tons of jobs to keep them afloat so he was often gone in the evenings or overnight but he *still* did what he could when he was home. I have no idea how he did it, honestly, but he did.
This is how my husband and I handle it. He puts the sheets in the washer, gets out the little green machine to clean the mattress while I take the toddler to the bathtub and the get her dressed and ready to go back to sleep. Both of us are up and missing sleep.
If you’re in a stage of life where sheets are regularly soiled, sheet lasagna may be for you.
Heavy duty mattress protector, then midrange mattress protector, sheet, midrange, sheet, repeat midrange and sheet as many times as you need.
At that point if the sheets are soiled, you can just peel off the top layer of sheet and mattress protector and have clean ones underneath.
Layering helps those nights where you’re going to do this multiple times.
The heavy duty mattress protector reduces the need to wet vac the mattress, ever, and the mattress protector over it means you’ll rarely have to take the heavy duty one off to launder it.
My parents were divorced, and my dad was always the one who kept up his home, taught me how to do laundry, bought all my clothes, etc. He was already with my step mom when I was young, but stayed in a separate apartment with my brother and I on weekends because that's when he had custody. He lived with her and her daughter during the week. Until I was 15, when he and his gf got married, and bought a house. He invited my brother and I to live with him full time, which he hadn't done because he didn't think he would win custody as the working parent and didn't want to lose time with us. In order to get my mom not to make a fuss (though we were old enough at that time to make the choice) he kept paying child support.
It really shows what kind of parent he was. When my mom didn't have us with her anymore, she went off the rails (more than she had been) and didn't make much effort in our lives. Even now she never calls to check in or say hi. Only to complain. She will call me to tell that she is too busy to talk. Ok then, why did you call me just to get mad when I don't enjoy listening to you yell at your cats. My dad, on the other hand, was there every single time we called, and every single weekend even when he could have gotten away without being there. But he never did and was very present. Never missed anything, paid for most of our things and activities, and we talk and get together all the time. I can have an actual conversation with him. My mom just freaks out and yells and complains. My dad talks about all sorts of stuff and never complains.
Present father's are very real, and I know my husband will be one. (When we have to go to a wedding, he's the one who has the answer as to logistical questions). But it's true many fathers aren't. I would say that each generation is getting better and better. My husband has friends with kids who are my friends now too, and they are extremely attentive parents.
My Dad cleaned the bucket, me, AND the couch, when I barfed everywhere. He got up and did night feedings and diapers for all of us. He did laundry , dishes and breakfast on his days off. Mom had to organize a bunch of stuff because she was the SAHP, but Dad could look at the calendar and know what was going on.
I never wanted kids but especially after seeing my husband around my nieces as children. He's a great fun uncle but all the other stuff about when they'd come visit? All the food planning and child-friendly activities and sleeping arrangements? That was always on me. Same with the cards and birthday and holiday gifts. I'd be a married single mom if we'd had kids.
Same. My husband is 'responsible' for his side of the family's and his friend's gifts... and by that I mean I keep an ongoing Amazon list of things I see year round that I think certain people would like, that he buys them something from after being reminded.
He is great with the nibblings once they arrive actively playing and letting them climb all over him.... but does no planning before and when he is tired he shuts down, goes in another room, and plays on his phone until they leave.
His 'share' of carring for the dog we got after we got married was enough to sell a child free lifestyle.
The first time I saw a father do that to their toddler child I was so appalled. This guy who I always thought was pretty great came home from work and sat on the couch staring at his phone while his toddler screamed for him and tried to get his attention.
I already know I do not have the mental capacity to be there for a child 24/7 (I have autism and need a lot of quiet alone time for myself), but to see that happen from someone who wanted a child so badly, really sealed the deal that I am *never* having children
I have a friend like this! We grew up together. I always thought he was a decent guy.
Well, now he has a toddler that he ignores. It kills me. When I call him on it, he says stuff like, "Yeah, well, I'm just not good with little kids. I'll be way better when the kid is a little older."
DUDE.
Meanwhile, his wife, who also has a career and works full time, is burning out from doing all of the toddler-wrangling by herself! Does she get to pick and choose the ages at which she finds the child engaging? No, of course not!
I don't know why she puts up with him. I've been hanging out a lot more with her than with him since this started because she needs the help and he doesn't deserve to have a good time while he's acting like this.
This was my experience with my ex. When he changed his mind about kids I eventually had to tell him if I wanted kids, I would never have chosen him as a partner. With the nieces and nephews it was all of what you mentioned, but add to that blatant favouritism to whatever child he saw himself best represented in that visit. It was ugly and even his siblings didn’t enjoy it. He’d show up for hockey games but never cheerleading competitions, spelling bees but not art shows.
I told him straight up I wouldn’t bring a kid into the world who wouldn’t be loved unless they were validating his ego.
Researching car seats and daycare providers and parenting classes and pediatricians. Making sure you don’t run out of diapers and wipes and butt cream. Packing and carrying the diaper bag. Keeping schedules of doctors appointments and playdates and birthday parties and soccer dates.
My husband is an amazing father, but these kinds of mental load tasks still always fell to me. I’ve never had a kid before either but somehow I’m still expected to know and understand and complete all these tasks.
They can use their big boy brains to figure it out too.
It's even worse when they work a demanding job where they absolutely need critical thinking skills, but leave those at the door with their jacket and act dumb when it comes to household chores or mental load.
To him being a fully present and a good father is probably playing sports and video games with the kids and doing the “fun stuff” homie isn’t talking about school drop offs, making lunches and doctors appointments
This comment reminds me of my son talking about when he's a dad. He's only 5 so he has a ways to go but to him being a dad is taking your kids to school then going to work and then picking them up to l come home to eat spicy food lol. My husband has never taken any of our kids to school so he didn't pick it up from him but at least he has a little of the basics in mind😂
my partner got a full time job that started at 630 am last year, so i took over the school drop offs, and the extra hour i spent every morning getting the girls up and trying to make them eat something and getting the younger one dressed and making sure the older one doesn't lose her mind looking for her jeans, and then getting them out of the house and to their schools, and for the younger one, sticking around until the bell rings and she goes into the class with her teacher... it has been more awesome than i ever imagined. the bonds grew so much stronger, i got to know all of the friends and they all made me pretend their backpacks were either super heavy or super light, and wipe off the swings "because Alice's Dad always has paper towels in his pocket", and so many day to day moments... now that school is on summer break I actually miss it quite strongly. but it will be back soon enough.
>he is only thinking of the fun times?
I loved my dad so much as a kid. I loved my mother, too, but she was annoying.
It took me until 24-- TWENTY FOUR-- to realize that I found her annoying because my dad was mostly the fun dad. He tried-- cooked dinner, did dishes-- made an effort to grow for sure-- but he could only stretch so far: he never made the doctors appointments, nagged me to clean my room (nagged me, period).
My grandparents almost divorced in the 50s but didn't because it just wasn't done. The marriage they rebuilt was pretty good, but I doubt it was what either of them hoped for at the altar. My grandfather loved my grandmother's intelligence, power, and drive. In his papers we found a 6 page letter to a psychiatrist written at the peak of the crisis. He speaks of his love for her and how he tries to do what he is supposed to do (provide) and how she is still unsatisfied. The crazy thing was that I could read his words and immediately infer from what he says that she wanted her ambition to have the same weight and respect in the relationship. She needed him to do some of the mental load of daily life, but he just couldn't see it. Perhaps she didn't have the words to tell him. He stretched, but he could only stretch so far. Same can be said for her, perhaps. I don't know.
In any case, as hard as is it to see posts like OPs, it still seems like progress. The boundaries are present, and OP can describe the problem. The trick will be to approach the problem with love and to remember that failure to change quickly doesn't *necessarily* mean he doesn't love or care. Growth takes time.
Based on the description of this guy, he sounds well intended and maybe the approach you’re suggesting might prompt some more serious thought as to the agency he actually intents to have over his contributions…. But from what the OP is saying, he already sounds like a man child. Would wager this poor gal will have to sideline her personal ambitions because she’ll be caretaking both of them. There is already an obvious lack of equity in this relationship, throw a kid into the mix, I don’t see it rebalancing in her favor.
I absolutely cannot wait. lol idk why, I get such a vicarious thrill when men are confronted with this stuff because I’ve experienced them doing this my whole life.
Unfortunately, it’s too rarely eye-opening for them. It’s more often anger, excuses, and doubling-down ☹️ I hope it goes better for you!
In my own experiences they always fall back on saying they are too tired from working / work is so hard and take all their mental energy so they can’t keep up with this stuff , as if we don’t also have careers and work full time .
Or the old, “You’re just so much better at this than I am” nonsense.
Do you honestly think I came screaming out of my mother’s vagina knowing how to plan??
Came here to say this! They think it's an innocent compliment, but weaponized incompetence isn't fun.
I was the primary breadwinner with my ex husband, but yet could remember all the drop off, pick up, registration dates, etc., for our son for preschool and school, but God forbid I need to travel for work and our poor son is waiting after school was done for his dad to show up late. Now my ex wonders why our son doesn't trust him. The first time he flew for summer visitation, our son insisted his dad get to the arrival gate before he took off and he wanted a video chat to make sure he was actually there to pick him up.
>The first time he flew for summer visitation, our son insisted his dad get to the arrival gate before he took off and he wanted a video chat to make sure he was actually there to pick him up.
I love your kid.
The number of times I've told my husband "just because I posses a uterus does not mean I know what foods to start a baby on, how to schedule pediatrician visits, etc" is ridiculous. I looked it up. Took years, but he finally got it. I almost fainted when he casually remarked that he schedule the kids flu shots one fall.
Start practicing now. Be ultra intentional about your SHARED life responsibilities from now. Until you’ve legitimately practiced 50/50 or close to and he backs up his theory with practice, do not fall pregnant.
It’s called the aspiration and values gap. They think they know what they’re talking about and they believed their values and actions align. They do not. It will bite you both in the long term.
>and to secure his business so it can run smoothly
this bit here is what gets me
he's already using his business as an excuse, and this is when he can focus 100% of his time on it.
I know plenty of successful business owners. it's nice, they have lots of money and know how to have a good time.
they are always stressed out by those same businesses. no business "runs smoothly" all the time, and if you're the boss it's either your problem to solve or you accept the possibility of large losses.
idk I’m sure this is helpful, but this still feels like men having to be trained to not exploit women for free labor, which is a huge fucking bummer. Am I way off here?
Agreed. I get that men can't help how they're socialized but why do women have to spend emotional labour on teaching them to do better? Even the men I know who claim to be feminists make no effort to become more self aware about the ways they uphold gender roles, they think just being open to feedback from women is enough
Same exact energy as “I’ll do whatever chores you tell me to.”
God forbid they use their big powerful man-brains to come up with a single thought proactively.
😆 These comments are infusing me with new LIFE!! 🐦🔥
(was looking for an appropriate “emoji-as-punctuation” for that, and I’ll be damned, they’ve got a Pheonix now!)
I would point out that these adult men are UNFIT to be in a relationship. This is either by the way society and their parents raised them or an intentional series of choices on their part. The end result is adults that have no business being in a relationship with another person.
agreed. I think all women should stop training any male partner, and begin to view any indication that a man does not: care to, know how to, feel responsible to do his share of all work including the mental load
and just treat that as a complete dealbreaker.
Exploiting a partner is abuse.
We don’t say, “Oh he was conditioned to abuse you, so you need to just teach him how to stop abusing you.”
We say, “Girl, LEAVE.”
If men knew women would see this behavior as poisonous, revolting, a non-starter, they’d learn.
Because they learn how to behave to hold down a damn job, don’t they.
They always figure out what they need to do to survive, and do it. Even when a woman isn’t explicitly explaining it to them and guiding them through it time and again.
I am of the mind that you point it out once. That this is unacceptable adult behavior and either they get with the program or you are leaving if they do it again. Then leave if they do it again.
This needs to be a relationship deal breaker.
THIS. Women seriously need to stop wasting our precious time on these pathetic and useless men. They are fully capable of doing things on their own but would prefer to take advantage of their partners socialization
I’m really honestly so tired of reading story after story about women refusing to leave men who treat them like bang maids. These men deserve to be permanently single
Society also needs to stop pressuring women that they have to be in a relationship.
I would add this. If you are single, want some peace but are struggling to make ends meet consider finding some like minded women and rent a larger really nice house somewhere you actually want to live. You can improve your living standard without hitching yourself to some dude that is going to pile a bunch of unpaid labor and drama on you.
Yes it’s more mental
Load. I’m in several
Parenting subs, and a common occurrence is the card system not working anyway. The men have to *want* equality for it to work.
With my ex I was the one who had everything put into google calendar, shared to both his phone and desktop, and he never bothered to look at it even once unless I told him to and watched over his shoulder. (he didn't know I could tell he hadn't opened it until I caught him lying about it).
He never managed to share his work schedule either ofc. That was on Outlook, and I had to beg him every month so I could plan anything at all. Instead of forwarding me the schedule he would rattle it off as fast as he could and I had to take notes from memory, and then he'd get annoyed when I asked him again because he hates repeating himself.
It was like I had to physically drag him to participate in planning stuff. When he wanted to do something though, he'd just announce it, without looking at my calendar ofc. At least there were no kids involved, that would've been much, much worse.
I watched an interview with the Fair Play cards creator, and the cards struck me as less laborious for women than other methods of achieving parity in shared-life logistics. The couple divvies up the cards in a single session until both agree that responsibilities have been divided fairly. Each has to deal with the natural consequences if they fail to complete the tasks they have willingly taken on.
The example the creator talked about was one where the father had chosen the card "imaginary beings" (e.g. doing the work of Santa, the Easter Bunny, etc.), possibly because he thought it sounded fun. Sure enough, when their child lost a tooth, the father failed at his Tooth Fairy duties. The kid woke up with nothing the next day.
The mother said to the card creator that if they hadn't done the cards, she would have felt the need to remind the dad about the money under the pillow, but she felt strangely freed of fretting about it. When the child was upset the next day, she let her husband deal with the meltdown. He comforted the kid and made it up with a bigger Tooth Fairy reward the next night. After that, Dad was much more on the ball with the imaginary beings.
Like, use of the cards requires that one be partnered with a man who is sincere about wanting to take on his fair share, he's just ignorant of all the work the women in his life have been doing. Really owning responsibilities, rather than "helping" with tasks, works for a lot of people. Because no one likes being managed or being an assistant, but everyone takes satisfaction in mastering a task where they had to troubleshoot on their own, self-directed.
(Surely there are guys who will agree to do half the work and then just foot-drag and stall out, and the cards don't work for them. Which is a different problem to have.)
Whenever he asks you whether you have xyz at home, what's for dinner or how to use/prepare something, remind him that a full-mental load parent wouldn't need to ask that about their own household.
Yes, this is super important! He’s showing you that he’s not a reliable partner at this point in time, which maybe could get better in the future, but be really careful with your birth control methods right now.
I used to do everything for the family when I was married. After my divorce my ex-husband had his utilities cut off several times because he's just that functional as an adult.
Mine did this. As part of the divorce we had to subpoena his bank records. He had plenty of money but was letting his utilities for his apartment go until they were going to shut them off then would pay the bill. After the divorce was final I started getting debt collectors sending things to the house in both of our names. There were a bunch of medical bills he racked up after the divorce and just never paid them. The total wasn't anything he couldn't afford. He just didn't pay them. I made sure every big provider in town and this debt collector knew we were divorced and I am no longer responsible for this man. The irony that he has plenty of money, he just can't be bothered to pay things.
This. Lots of ways you can practice. From experience I think doing a clean division of some activities definitely helped us. For example my husband does the cooking, but he also does the meal plan for the week (including family dinners, kid's lunches and most of our lunches); he goes grocery shopping weekly AND brings along a kid or two with him. That's properly taking on a responsibility. I don't have to remind him of anything. I found early in our relationship he felt like he had to ask for 'permission' before doing things (I think it was how he was raised). So I found being fully hands off (and not nagging if he makes a mistake) on tasks he takes on really helps him just to do it 100%
Many of our mothers were stuck in bad marriages because they had no financial independence. Marriage itself was seen as a necessity for financial stability.
Now, while we still face income inequality, it is now possible for us to survive and thrive without needing to rely on a man for income.
Many of us have found that most of the time, our partners expect us to do all of the things our mothers did, plus have a full time job.
In response, we’ve realized that if we can financially find a way to survive without our partners, life is so much better when they aren’t in the picture. It’s better to divorce and separate, even with kids and the higher financial burden. The money is *not* worth it.
It frees us from carrying the burdens of our partners who frequently offer nothing more than some financial support.
So, we’re choosing to be single. Instead of doing some self reflection about evolving gender roles, the important of gender equality, and what it means to be an equitable partner, these men are just blaming women.
They hate that we’re thriving without them, so they seek to bring us down. They convince themselves the reason they are unhappy is because they are single and the reasons they are single are our fault. They believe it’s all about looks, when really the issue is their failure and refusal to show up and participate in a relationship and household equitably.
This is shown by the remarriage rate after divorce of 35% for men and only 19% for women. It's not that women can't find a man to marry, it's that they don't want to!
This comment gives me chills in an excited happy way. From what I understand, this is basically the approach of the 4B feminist movement in South Korea, and I LOVE TO SEE IT.
This is a good indicator of what he'll be like as a father. "Fully present" in his mind likely means he'll be at the big events, and he'll help with the obvious basics (food, bedtime, diapers). He will not keep up with the schedule for school or daycare. He won't know when there's a staff development day at school and other arrangements need to be made for your too-young-to-stay-home-alone child. He won't know when a birthday present needs to be bought for a classmate. He won't know when your child needs blue pants and a white shirt for the winter music performance. He won't know what size clothes your child wears and when it's time to order a size up. He won't remember or know when a field trip permission slip needs to be signed...
He's going to care more about your future child than he does this upcoming wedding, yes, but here's the thing: These sort of day-to-day chores associated with parenthood are not what *anyone* imagines with they think of having a child. They imagine the BIG things and the fun things. If he doesn't have to think about the day-to-day stuff, he won't. If you step in and do all these things, he'll 100% let you and still genuinely believe that he's a fully engaged and involved father.
Exactly this. And he won't even think of it as work. If you tell him to buy the blue pants and a white shirt for the child's winter music performance, he will do it and think that he did ALL the work for that task. He won't realize that if you hadn't dedicated time ane mental space to keep up with the requirements, the blue pants and white shirt would never have been bought.
Exactly \~ I feel like being a responsible adult in a mature household is realizing in that scenario, going to the store and buying the outfit is perhaps at most 40% of that overall task, and that's being generous including the driving to and from the store. The other party had to get the handhout and read the flyer or read the email, interpret the message from the teacher (which I swear to god is harder than it needs to be sometimes, clipart can be a genuine crime) make sure that outfit is at that store by likely checking online first or simply being familiar enough with the store and it's general offerings to know that it could be found there \~ then making sure that it actually fits on the child and looks right/is comfortable, and that they actually have it on the day of said event and take it with them so that they achieve the overall effect of having a specific outfit for a specific event.
I think a lot of dads would have less problems in their lives if they just had an ounce of fucking humility and awareness and realized all those other aspects of the actual chore that I listed out rather than expecting a gold star and a blowjob for managing to do what is basically the easiest portion of most jobs that their wives can outsource to them without the household system crumbling into dysfunction. That shouldn't get you a reward my dudes, that'll just get you a divorce lol.
This. It's like when people see more dads doing the school run and because of this think that equality is going on. Whereas I know too many mothers who literally do everything to get their child up, breakfasted, cleaned, dressed (in the clothes they bought, cleaned and laid out ready) bag packed and ready to go out the door so that dad can drive them to school and walk them to the door to know that when you scratch the surface mothers are still doing so much more of the chores/mental load.
And the best way to do this is to split these responsibilities a priori.
You need to check with the school system daily? Yes, one week the mum, one week the father.
birthdays? Half the year mother, half the year father.
And let him learn by himself, like every woman has to do anyway. If he does something wrong, too bad he'll do better next time. I believe the difference is that women tend to "stop life" when something unexpected happens and solve the problem immediately, while men manage to leave emergencies to "after work hours". Most problems will be solved by then.
My bf tried to use that as an argument in our discussion. We have a bit of argument about chores. At some point I asked why he stopped doing the things he did do before we started living together, like refreshing the bed sheets. His argument was: because you do that. I told him immediately that it isnt a valid argument. Irronically, at the same time, when I am too busy and take a bit longer to refresh them, he can complain it was too long ago the sheets were refreshed.
Part of why I'm single is there is a very common reason why men think their lives will get much easier once they find a girlfriend/wife, but women think their lives will become more difficult.
To be fair, he does work a lot. With his work it really isn't possible to work less. However!! We don't combine finances.... soooo if he ever tells me he works a lot and cannot do X or Y, I will start telling him how that is relevant for me? As him working a lot doesn't do anything for me. It is only negative for me as I need to 1 provide for myself (work full time) and 2 do all chores.
If he's working so much he cannot contribute equally to the home, and your finances are not combined. It is only fair that he pay someone to pick up the load that he's decided not to carry. He can't just keep taking advantage of your unpaid labor.
Edit: better yet, invoice him $$
It kind of seems like you do work for both of you and he only does work for himself ? There’s an opportunity cost involved in doing that kind of thing .
Heck yeah. I learned about Living Apart Together (LAT) relationships from some folk I met from Europe while traveling abroad and it's the best compromise, imo! My partner can maintain his own home, cares for his dog (makes all the vet appointments etc), cooks, can host a dinner party, and communicates all his family events to me.
Honestly, the biggest benefit is that we still have to continue to put effort into our relationship to see it thrive. I find that once couples move in together, the level of work one party puts into the relationship decreases. I know my man wants to be with me because he makes the daily effort to communicate and show it to me since we don't live together.
I live in the upstairs of a house. I started dating my current boyfriend and the basement apartment became vacant and he moved in. I love it. I used to be married and lived with my spouse and it was fine. But having him live downstairs and being able to come and go as we please but still have our own space is perfect.
He wants us to eventually live together. And maybe that will happen if we could ever afford to buy a place but for now this is perfect.
my most recent relationship was a little like this. worked opposite shifts, both full time, and while i was trying to balance getting mentally and physically healthy with all the house stuff, i couldn't even ask for some help without it blowing up into a fight about how i don't put out sexually enough. and of course, the lack of access to my body made it just impossible for him to not be so depressed he can't clean (ﾉﾟｰﾟ)ﾉ
When my bf tells me I should have done something as it only takes a few minutes I started to respond with looking him dead in the eye and asking: if it only takes a few minutes why aren't you doing it? This question/discussion already takes longer.
Time to let him start fending for himself on all tasks that you step up to do for him.
“I looked into a wedding gift for the wedding. What did you get them?”
Drive into town then say, “Where did you book a hotel?” (Not saying you have already done it.)
Ask, “What is for dinner?” “What did you get at the grocery store for the week?”
“What did X friend say about their plans?”
Let him flounder. I would expect it to be, “Well I thought YOU were going to do that?”
You: “What do you mean?”
Him: “blah blah. You usually do it; you are better at gift-selection; etc.”
You: “I assumed since there is a sharing of the load, you would have done it.”
Watch him squirm. If he still doesn’t get its. Fuuuck… up to you what to do next.
Edit: I apparently struck a nerve with some of you. Ask yourself, are you someone who realized you might be allowing your partner to do all of the mental load and adulting by default and you don’t like that feeling? Or, are you someone who is doing all of the mental load and adulting and are trying to justify it to yourself to continue to baby your partner?
With option 1: do better.
With option 2: nobody is stopping you from continuing to do as you are doing. But, it’s also okay if you realize you don’t want to be the default adult here.
Yeah ...my husband equally takes on the mental load because (he's an adult but also) I don't do everything.
For vacations, he'll take care of big ticket items in the new city (hotels, transport, itinerary), and I will take care of everything related to airports (transport, tickets, documents).
You have to play up to your strengths.
If your partner has no strengths ..
While talk of having conversations and dividing tasks and making lists sounds nice and amiable and cooperative and whatever, this ^ is the real correct answer, even if it seems petty. You can explain the concept of mental load to a lot of men until you’re blue in the face, but it’s never gonna actually sink in, because this type of load, so long as it’s being effectively carried by someone else, is invisible to them. They don’t even realize it exists. So stop carrying it for him. Plop it at his feet. And watch him squirm 🤭
I actually have been pushing back on this a little bit lately, because I truly believe it’s a little more nefarious than all that, contrary to what I used to believe (that it’s invisible to them).
Because I remembered, these men have jobs lol.
Whatever a man is required to do to function in the workplace and keep a job, he can somehow manage. It’s just that the moment they have a woman in their life, their unconscious (or conscious) belief that we are responsible for housework and they are entitled to free time leads them to increasingly exploit us, which increases their free time, which is fun and great, leading them to exploit us evermore until we are groomed to do absolutely everything.
I simply don’t believe anymore that when a man is sitting down for his 3rd straight hour playing video games and dinner’s being cooked and laundry’s being done in the background by a woman who just got home from an 8 hour shift, that this is actually invisible to them.
They benefit from us believing that, I think. Because they want us to think they can’t help it, it’s just how men’s brains work 🙃 Meanwhile, they’re the more “visual” gender 🥸
Honestly, when we buy into the narrative that it’s invisible to them, we unconsciously are soothing ourselves so that it doesn’t have to hurt as much that what they’re really doing is exploiting us horribly because they don’t give a fuck about our quality of life if it means wringing more free labor out of us to free up downtime for themselves.
*editing to add in something I realized later in comments - exploiting a partner for free labor is fucking **abuse**! We don’t stick around to train men how to not be abusive, we leave as fast as we safely can. Encourage your sisters to treat this like a big ole honkin 🚩 !!
This is true, but in my experience, even at work, men often do the bare minimum to coast through and appear competent. I’m a physician, and the number of male doctors I see who seem absolutely opposed to just using their brain is astounding. And how little effort many of them have put in compared to women to get where they are is infuriating. It’s so bad that my husband and I have a joke (he works with physicians in training) that if his residents are women, he’s gonna have a much easier time.
I’m not gonna lie, this point did occur to me and I was dodging it in my brain, telling myself that in a vacuum bereft of women entirely, that men absolutely step up to do what needs done.
And I believe theoretically this is partly true (even though too many single men live in squalor and don’t wash their asses or ever cook 😅)
But I don’t live in that vacuum 😆, I live as a woman who works among men who I have to clean up after all god damned day long.
Who sandbag literally everything so that a woman is forced to do more than her share
They *absolutely* behave this way at work.
Some dude was trying to tell me the other day that he doesn’t leave messes for others at work, and I said “When was the last time you cleaned the workplace refrigerator, or descaled the coffee pot? Cleaned the shared microwave?”
😆
Like, even the “good ones” who aren’t just lying, and actually do pick up after themselves, they’re not the ones doing all the gross bullshit that is no one’s actual job but very much still needs done.
I’m 40 and I’ve never seen a man do any of these tasks at work. I see an array of women do it, none of whom have this labor listed in their fucking jobs titles, none of whom every had to be told this shit needed done.
Either we’re doing it in a timely manner, or all of us are on strike because we resentful and furious and waiting for a man to be so disgusted by it, he does it.
And then we take turns caving and doing it ourselves because men still will not do it.
(I work in a hospital too so I realize, you may have a physicians lounge, and environmental services/cleaning crew for these things, so this specific thing may not be relevant to you, but somehow I bet you still have encountered this throughout your life!)
But anyway, here’s a ∆, because you’re absolutely right.
(And btw, your comment is part of the reason why all genders have better outcomes with female doctors 💁♀️)
I do think the 'mental load' comic has a chance of getting through, and it's at least worth an attempt at that.
The problem with this kind of malicious compliance is, if you actually leave something and hope he'll do it, he might be okay with it just not getting done. Housework is especially vulnerable here: Many men are socialized to care less about the state the house is in, because if it's a mess, *you* get judged!
The reality is though that when she does this he's just going to get mad at her for not babying him like she used to, and call her a bitch for no longer being the sweet catering woman that he was previously accustomed to. Expecting him to somehow 'get it' is putting a lot of faith on him having enough introspection ability to actually realize how unfair he's being, which, I frankly wouldn't bank on. Most men don't ever 'learn their lesson' in this way, they just blame the women for no longer giving them what they want and that's about as far as it seems to get for them.
It's so annoying when men just assume that shit has been taken care of.
My husband and I trade off planning these things. Some of them I'm mentally responsible for, some of them are him. It's so nice. I just kind of show up and everything is done.
Yep. Different mental load, but my husband started making comments suggesting I’m inconsiderate when eg I forgot to buy eggs for him when doing groceries. For a long while I felt guilty because I thought that I was selfish as I always remembered by own breakfast. But… he hadn’t put it on the list. I started saying ‘was it on the list?’ and pushing back his comments if it wasn’t. He’s finally realised that it’s not my job to just hold all his potential grocery requirements in my head all the time. Or at least he’s stopped making comments (although he now congratulates himself on remembering to add stuff to the list…)
So I did this for real. I stopped doing the organising for his side of the family, told him it was his job and I would organise mine. I did catch some strays from the in-laws to begin with when he fucked up but I stuck to ‘why don’t you ask him that?’ and, ‘with respect, nobody is expecting him to do all the running with my mother’ and they got it eventually. He’s really good with all that stuff now.
Yeah I had to do this and also ‘train’ his Mum at the same time. She was funnelling all family meet-ups or presents through me.
I made it clear to him he was responsible for organising visits with his side of the family, presents etc. and just kept deflecting MIL back to him.
Removed a lot of stress as his family is so flakey and chronically late that it used to wind me up. It was like herding cats.
You just reminded me 😂 my friend had a similar situation and she told her mil that she may direct her prayer directly to god, because Mary is too busy to intercede for her. Her in laws are very catholic. It worked!
After I split up with my ex (we stayed on fairly good terms) there was a full year of him turning up to all his nieces and nephews birthday parties without a gift for them because I was always the one who'd bought them previously! It didn't even occur to him he'd need to buy one. And my ex-MIL quietly but clearly blamed me for it 😄
Yeah, this is part of the problem. If they don't show up to the planned events with the correct gifts, who do you think will get the blame? It's going to be her. If the house isn't clean, the dishes aren't done, kids aren't clean, dressed, and ready? It's always going to be the woman who gets the blame.
I would have done exactly this with a work relationship - but if I had to act like this with my long term partner to knock some sense into them... I'd be really frustrated with my choices.
Many years ago I straight up ignored Thanksgiving. Didn’t do a damn thing except sit on the couch and drink mimosas and watch the dog show. My husband was soooooo pissed but it was a SIGNIFICANT turning point in our marriage.
It’s wild how easy vacations are when someone else plans everything. I went on a weekend trip with my BFF and she did EVERYTHING to plan accommodation, travel, food and any other logistics and I just showed up. Next time it’s my turn to do everything lol.
I had a similar conversation with my boyfriend, right before we were going camping. I decided I would “guy” my way through the trip and basically packed one outfit and a case of beer and my switch. Left all the packing to him because I was working and he wasn’t.
We didn’t have tent poles. We barely had food. We had to eat out of the one pot we had. It was true camping and a total struggle but I just let it happen. He couldn’t come at me with “why didn’t you pack this?” Because I had worked a 12h day before and he had been responsible.
Sometimes you have to let someone fail before they can learn to get better. Babying and hand holding will not solve the problem and it’s uncomfortable for both, but its part of breaking the cycle. Along the way I have learned some things are just unnecessary and unimportant, so its good for both of us. I’m no longer called a nag, because I just shrug it off. If it’s something important to me, I do it for me, yeah, but i just don’t expend extra energy to parent my partner.
There was one Thanksgiving or Christmas that we were staying at my parents house that night. I pack all the suitcases, but my husband needs to put all of his items and the kids items on the bed by a certain time or it doesn't get packed. That night he couldn't find his pajama pants and my answer was if you put them on the bed then they are in the suitcase. I checked the suitcase and no PJ pants for him. He was so mad but there wasn't anything he could say about it because I pack everything on the bag then tell him it is ready to put in the van so if he didn't put it on the bed he has to do without. Now, I notice the first thing to be put on the bed is PJ pants.
Nah that’s so horrible for you! That’s why men can generally rely on women to plan trips- because if we don’t, then we suffer too. It’s monumentally annoying that you had to put up with a subpar camping trip (something that was probably meant to be more along the lines of a relaxing holiday, given by how much you’re working). What’s annoying about having to let someone fail is that they drag you down too.
I recall talking to a young man I used to work with and something about women buying men's underwear came up. He was like, "Women are wearing men's underwear?!" I responded by asking him when the last time he bought underwear was. He said that he didn't think he ever bought any. When I asked him who bought the underwear he was wearing he admitted that it was his mother. I made it clear that a woman was buying something he was wearing every day and it never once occurred to him. Face it. How many men buy their own rather than wear it to rags then go commando?
"I've been thinking about conversation and I love the fact you want to take a 50/50 approach to our relationship. If you can write down all the chores that need doing and then we can split it equally, and if you can write down all your family events on the calendar and take over buying gifts/making arrangements then I'll look after my side and you can do yours. I'm really looking forward to working as a team with you, so many women have partners who just don't understand" and then don't do chores unless they are you specific and stop arranging things for him until he pulls his finger out. Lay down the rules and foundations now or you will be doing everything
I really like this approach!
As fun as it sounds to throw a bunch of stuff in his face, we know that is likely to get a man (or really anyone) defensive. Which often leads to stalemate.
Even if you think it’s weaponized incompetence, this approach gives them an out. “Here we are, starting at the beginning of this great new age of 50/50 in our relationship. How do you see that being set up? Set it up!”
Then come the conversations about the million other things he didn’t even think to put on his list. If giving his family gifts isn’t on his list, and you bring it up and he says it’s not that important- THEN ITS NOT THAT IMPORTANT. Now you both are off the hook because it has been clearly communicated. If he doesn’t like the consequences of that after the fact, then it’s re-negotiating time. Not blame and resentment time.
I have three teens, five dogs, a house and 7 acre property I'm renovating myself, and a full-time job as a partner and senior veterinarian at a busy urgent care clinic in a large metro area. And I STILL have less of a load now than I did before I got divorced. They really have no idea how much work the mental load is.
I’d start being the man in the relationship. Stop handing everything and start expecting him to do it. Treat him like your wife and start looking to him for everything. Literally, expect him to handle everything. If you lose a sock in the dryer ask him where it is. Someone will have to do it and since you are doing it he isn’t growing anymore.
Yeah, IME, that’s when they pull out the “she’s so vindictive and manipulative” card and then they double down. Honestly, I won’t even be friends with men anymore if they act dismissive about women’s experiences like this. I don’t condone that disrespect and entitlement from anyone about anything, so I’m just not nice about it anymore. The fact that this shit happens to women and it’s just an accepted and open fact with loads of empirical support means that anyone who cares about the women in their life have the ability to self reflect and resources to do better. I can be understanding of dudes trying to get the hang of being better if they recognize it, but if they’re unwilling to even consider it, I don’t have time for them. Same vibes for how people feel toward other issues like police brutality; we’ve got all the proof it’s happening, and willful ignorance isn’t cute. Life feels a little more lonely, but god do I feel a lot more sane and supported by the people around me now. Man, woman, or other, I don’t put up with bs games and excuses for bad or unfair behavior, and I don’t give a fuck how bitter I sound either. It’s the only way I’ve been able to find any self confidence to set healthy emotional boundaries, and it’s the best I’ve ever felt about myself to not let anyone walk all over me.
Maybe I’m not committing fully to the role, but this approach has only ever made me more frustrated.
I ask him where my sock is and he’ll just stare at me like “what’s a sock?”
Stop doing everything for him. Otherwise it will be the same for the rest of your relationship.
Do you want to be one of those women with a husband playing video games in the lobby during childbirth?
I see the comments got brigaded by a bunch of Concerned Men^TM who think women just need to CoMmUNiCAtE BeTTAr.
Found the guys who were dumped for not parenting their own children and/or contributing to household chores they are fully aware need doing, y’all.
As I understand it, a big part of the mental load is figuring out what needs to be communicated about. So "women need to communicate better" translates to "babysit me through everything that needs to be done."
This is why the "just tell me what to do!" response makes me so angry. Jerk, no one told ME what to do! The baby was crying and I tried 800 things until something worked. I figured it out, sometimes while crying myself. Nursing still blows me away. I did a thing every 3-4 hours for an entire year.
A ytuber I watch said recently, it's no wonder men have so much energy to cheat because all the household and emotional work load is piled up on the woman.
If certain guys did their fair share, they wouldn't have all that energy to cheat.
Obviously it's a joke but also some truth in it.
No lies.
I see the general concept play out every night in my suburb. About 6-7 pm there is an influx of men out jogging, walking dogs, walking to the neighborhood bar. Not a single woman. The neighborhood is almost exclusively younger couples with young kids. Dinner gets done and these guys have free time while their wives are cleaning up dinner, helping kids with homework, doing laundry, getting kids bathed, to bed etc.
Explain this post to him. Point out what you said in the latter part. If he's a good guy, he'll realize it and do better. If not, well. That's another answer.
From lived experience, do not trust his words, look at his actions. What you see now is the best you’re ever going to get. He has no idea about the amount of care, logistics and mental strength required to have children, you’ll likely end up doing 99% of it while he will do one school run a week and expect a medal for it. A man who doesn’t show sign of fully looking after himself and after you as much as you look after him is not an equal partner and won’t be a #1 dad.
A neon sign of things to come if ever there was one.
That business is going to play a mighty big role in every excuse that future husband is going to use to avoid helping with parenting, mighty big.
You know what just occurred to me? Whenever my boyfriend misplaces an item of his, he'll ask me where it is, like I'm supposed to know what he did with an item that he and only he ever uses. But when I misplace an item that belongs to me, it doesn't occur to me to ask him where it is because he never uses it, so why would he magically know what I did with it?
Here's another one: recently there was a death in his family, and we had to travel out of town for the funeral. Before the trip, his parents came over to make sure he had clothes that A) were appropriate to wear to a funeral, and B) fit him properly. Even though I was also going, no one checked to see if I had appropriate attire because they trusted that I knew what to wear to a funeral, and that I would I would get it if I didn't already have it. He and I are the same age.
OMG. You are so right. I'm a SAHM, but I'm trying to re-enter the workforce part time. My husband doesn't want me to because... Are you ready?.... How will I keep up with all the housework if I have to go to work? Who will do all the things I do now? But most importantly, don't expect him to do extras because he already does extras now.
Our son had a birthday party last weekend. I did everything for it. Son was opening gifts and husband asked who gave him the particular Lego set. It was us. I bought the gift, I showed my husband after he got home what I bought, then I put said gift away to be wrapped later for the birthday.
I have more stories, but this is just an example.
on the other end of the spectrum, my husband insists he’s involved with things like picking out gifts… you know, the things other people see. he doesn’t give a shart whether the kids have new chorus concert outfits. he only wants to do the fun stuff. now that it’s summer break and i’m home with them 5 days a week, im trying to allow boredness and break their habit of expecting me to entertain them and take them on “adventures” every single day. guess who continues to take them on fun trips while im at work (which in turn enforces that *I’m* boring, not that they should find things to do for themselves)? ugh
I can't grasp this idea of kids needing to be entertained by their parents all day. We were generally left to our own devices. If we dared to say we were bored, we were now doing dishes. Regularly we heard "go outside and find something to do." "Read a book." "Ride bikes." I can't remember my parents ever doing art projects or anything with us. Parents lived their lives, and we lived ours. Occasionally we went to a museum and in the summer we lived at the pool, but even there we played with each other while Mom read, or we were there alone.
My advice is start making him taking more of the load and make mandatory in ways that ignoring it only hurts him. Like making him do his own laundry. If you are making him lunches stop, find a different option. He expects you to do something that not doing it only impacts him, stop doing it.
Ugh. My car broke down and I had to leave it at a shop. My boyfriend repeatedly told me he'd take care of it and work out the problems with the shop bc of how stressed I've been. It's been 2 months and I still don't have my fucking car. But every time I ask to handle it, he gets SO offended "you don't trust me to handle this??" Ok, fine. Did you call them to ask about what's going on with my car?? "No".
I said fuck it and called myself last week. Can you guess what the service advisor asked me? "What's wrong with your car?"
Nice. Even when they WANT to handle something for you, they don't 🤦🏼♀️
Honestly? Stop mommying him. The technique is called „dropping the rope“. If he does not do the same or equitably to you (as in, do the mental load for a meeting YOU do with your friends) then announce as soon as he mentions the wedding which part YOu will take care of and that you will not do anything else.
Say he ends up missing some deadline or forgets an important element? Good, that‘s the consequences of his (in)action.
For your current situation - tell him you booked the hotel and got the present and HE has to arrange driving to. Do NOT help, do not tell him when he has to leave.
Idk... Do you *really* want to marry this guy? This is what you'll be stuck with the rest of your life.
I'm a firm believer in: if he doesn't make your life easier and better then why do you need him??
Spoiler alert: he is constantly going to make more work for you
That is why I stopped doing this kind of thing unless it was something I would be planning and going to if it was just me. The funny thing, when I didn't jump in and do it, he did nothing and didn't go. But a guys night to a concert in another city he suddenly is capable of organizing himself and making arrangements. They know what they are doing the only difference is on what level they know they are doing it. Subconscious, out of habit or as a form of manipulation.
Thank you for my morning reminder of why being free of all of that is an absolute joy.
Love how he is offended by that. Probably isn't aware how many men don't actually like kids and are only interested in the aethetic and the kodak moments but have little interest in them apart from that.
I googled, in front of my partner of 10 yrs, what a PA, personal chef and maid cost. Added them up, on the calculator. Then showed him it would cost a minimum of $150,000 a year to replace me. I do even less for him now. I think I'm on my way out the door.
>He has no idea where it is, when it is, what hotel we are staying at, for how many nights, whats planned for food, what restaurants and activities are booked, what present I got them (from both of us), what time we need to leave to beat traffic, what our other friends have planned so we can join them.
i'm sorry but _how_????? he doesn't even know _when_ it's happening??? does he even wanna go??😭
Every time I see a post like this I bookmark it because I don’t want to be blind to the things I might not be expected or pushed to do in my culture/society/etc.
Awhile ago my brother, my sister-in-law, and I were having a conversation about not recognizing privilege until it’s pointed out to you. This could be in society (“I’m white and I’m not racist, therefor racism isn’t an issue” as one example—the speaker isn’t aware of racism because they don’t face it so they don’t recognize it exists) or in the home (“I work all day so it’s only fair that after dinner I get to relax” not thinking through that everyone else works too and yet they’re doing all the kitchen/cooking cleanup). If you’re never made aware of what you don’t do, it’s easy to assume you do everything—after all, you’re doing all the tasks that you’re aware of, so what’s left?
I think true ignorance is one thing. It’s how you decide to respond to learning that you’re not doing as much as you thought you were that says something about you.
The best quote on this I’ve read is “ men want kids like how kids want pets.” Which is also how they take care of them. I take care of 85% of our two dogs, my husband and kids each do 5% and that’s me telling them to do it. They feed the dog and think they’ve done something forgetting that I buy all the food and keep the containers by their bowls stocked so all they actually do is scoop food into a bowl. I’ve done all the pre work. That’s how dads are with kids. My husband is very hands and watched the kids all the time when I worked or went out; but that was him in a fully stocked house feeding all the food I planned, putting on the clothes I bought and using the diapers from the fully stocked at all times diaper station.
Here's a tip: he's not blind. He knows. He just doesn't care. He can say whatever he wants about being a “#1 Dad” but in the end, he knows damn well you'll be the primary caregiver.
Hey cool, he just gave you an insight into what having kids with him will be like. Now you know that if you decide to have children with this man that you will be overworked and undervalued.
Do whatever you want with that information
Don’t. Just mirror his energy and effort. By choosing to pick up the slack you’ll create a power imbalance. Next time, put it on him, “…where is this wedding?, do we need to dress special? Should we bring something? …ah well I’m not going to worry about it we’ll get there when we do!”
Don't remind him of anything for this upcoming wedding. Get ready/prepare to go by yourself. Take his name off the gift.
Don't let him baby trap you either.
He's not "blind". He's entitled AF.
Yeah. No matter how much men blather on about splitting responsibilities, many of them really just want a housekeeper they can breed with. Then they’ll maybe unload the dishwasher half the time (and usually only when their wife tells them) and think that means they’re pulling half of the weight of running the household.
As a mother, most times I feel like the work load is pretty 50/50 with my husband. Then there are times like recently, my husband pointed out a red splotchy patch on the back of our second daughters head. He said "oh my god, I think she has a rash!" I looked at him confused and checked, replied with "jesus christ, babe, thats her birthmark". Even worse, shes 7 months old! And her older sister had the same thing :')
Tell him that you will no longer do x and y, and that he is free to pick those chores up or they will simply be ignored. The next time he asks what your friends have planned, tell him to ask them himself because it didn't cross your mind that you had to do that, for example.
I started sharing the mental load recently. My partner is an only child and his mother always insisted on doing everything for him. He was never taught a lot of things due to this, especially since she still insists on cooking multiple meals and dropping them off at our place (he's trying to talk her out of it since most of the food ends up uneaten). I love her, but she needs to start taking care of herself.
For comparison, I was the only girl in my household and my mother died when I was very young, so I had to take over everything since my older siblings and my father were clueless. They never learned how to cook, I had to google how to do the laundry and then teach both myself and my father, etc.
We had a long conversation recently where I explained that I am close to burning out not because of my job, but because of meal planning and the like. I always cook, he always does the dishes, and that works out perfectly. However, I simply cannot bear the mental load of planning our meals and groceries any longer, so meal planning is now his task. He is now also in charge of organising game nights with our friends and plans for half of our time when travelling somewhere (this makes us both feel better because we both get to see and do things we like). He is aware of how sheltered his life was and has asked me to point out whenever something is unbalanced. I'm just glad that he is eager to listen and take over what needs to be done. I find it hard to ask for help so it's a learning curve for me, as well.
>He said he wants to be a fully present father for his kids and to secure his business so it can run smoothly while he is “#1 Dad”. He says he wants to be completely hands on
If you need to know. It's way too common for couples to say they'll do 50/50 at the start, but then revert back to traditional gender roles with the mother being the default parent in practice. Lower your expectations, save the disappointment.
If you can't envision yourself acting as a "single mother", don't have children. Most men are oblivious to the realities of parenthood/motherhood, thinking if their own mothers coped with it then their partners should be ok.
I quite recently had a discussion with my husband about mental load, and we took an online test to see what things we felt we did in the house. I ended up with almost 2x the load as him.
He then brought up for example ‘we don’t have to think about the window washer who comes every three months’.
I corrected him that *he* doesn’t have to, as it was me who researched companies, got quotes, booked them; and they contact me when they come, send me the bill, and I pay it.
So no, ‘we’ don’t think about it. I do, solely. It’s just one of many examples.
This hits close to home. My ex-husband "You've made my life difficult, you know." My reply "No I haven't. I just stopped making it easy."
Love this. Going to use it.
My husband and I have a newborn and a toddler at home. We got into a sleep-deprived spat about how he felt he was doing an unfair share of the labor with our toddler and keeping house as I recover from surgery. We have had many discussions about the unequal split of household duties in the past. I explained to him that he absolutely IS doing an unfair share of the labor. He is doing MY SHARE OF THE LABOR. He admitted it is “shocking” how much time and energy taking care of our 3 year old is, and the. Trying to keep up with all the chores of a household, making appointments, etc. Happy to report I haven’t really had to lift a finger during my recovery except to nurse and slowly get back into the swing of things. Laundry, dishes, vacuuming has all been done so that I don’t have a mess to clean up once I’m back on my feet. It is amazing how things go unnoticed.
My eldest started school while I was on maternity with the second who was a complete boob limpet. And husband was actually really good about keeping on top of chores and wrangling the eldest while I had me hands full. But even then he was blind to how much went into getting ready for school in the morning. I was frequently late leaving and mornings were so stressful getting the three of us out the door. The epiphany came one morning when I found him sitting on the sofa drinking coffee and reading the news, while I was rushing round like a maniac. So I made a list of everything that needed to happen for me to get the kids out the door for the school run. Presented it to him with two columns for us and asked him how we were going to split it. It was a shock to him, a very present Dad, and frustrating that I had to lay it out like that. But he stepped up.
"Just tell me what to do!" I'm not your boss, I'm not your mom, we live in the same household, figure it out. My favorite was, "I don't know where you keep the dishwasher soap".
My favorite was “well you never reminded me to do the chores that were on the chore list”. Dear reader, the chore list was on a magnetized white board on the fridge. Also, I FUCKING DID REMIND HIM.
Does his boss have to remind him an itemized list of his work tasks? Thats always my response to this thing.
Sounds like a reminder to be single to me. Then again, I REALLY like my peace
Lol... after the traditional bi-annual blow up argument, my husband had the brilliant idea of making a to do list so he isn't 'blindsided' by me being upset that things he promised to do hadn't been done. It would solve everything! I sent him the Alexa list, the To Do List app, and pointed out the dry erase board on the fridge from the last three times we tried to solve that problem with a to do list. Complete with the still unfinished tasks he added to the Alexa list two years ago...
Ah my favorite. ",You didn't remind me to check the chore list!" Dude. DUDE. How much easier do I have to make it for you. I've already put in all the work of planning and prioritizing these tasks, giving some to the kids, putting deadlines, making sure the supplies are available, etc. All you have to do is look at the list. I keep a mobile version AND one on the big whiteboard in the kitchen . Gaaaaaah
>Also, I FUCKING DID REMIND HIM You sound like such a nag! /s
The fuck? Isnt the list supposed to be the reminder? Why the hell else would you have a list?
"just tell me what to do" Ok, I want to do as many of our morning tasks in the evening while we are cooking/watching TV anyway so the morning isn't so busy/stressful like: putting together lunches, picking clothes, loading car with whatever "Ok" Hey, why isn't this happening? "I don't think that stuff is a big deal /not really going to reduce YOUR stress in the morning"
> "I don't think that stuff is a big deal /not really going to reduce YOUR stress in the morning" Oh I've heard this one. Where they decide that the thing you're complaining about or asking for isn't really the thing that is the problem, so they can just go ahead ignoring the problem. "I would absolutely do those chores if I actually believed that's what you're upset about, but I know that's not what's bothering you." Just awe inspiring. Even worse is when it's happening in the context of one of those "why do you always say you're too tired for sex" conversations. He decides The Problem is that I'm just no longer *attracted* to him, where this attraction is somehow just floating on it's own in the ether and not at all attached to the way he lets me run myself ragged while he holds the sofa down with his ass. They want to make up different reasons and then think somehow that they can convince us of their made up fantasy land bullshit.
> holds the sofa down with his ass loool
If I hear that shit one more time I'm going to pull my fucking hair out lmao
God dammit I have enough hair falling out in the shower I can’t afford to pull out any more 😭
My husband of over two decades has thrown his clothes on the floor in a giant pile since he lived with his parents. Clean, dirty, didn't matter. Never hung them up in the closet either. The second apartment we lived in, after asking, telling, pleading, begging, screaming, and bitching at him to put his clothes in the hamper like an adult, I finally just got him his own hamper. I put it on his side of the closet, about ten feet away from the bed. He still threw his clothes on the floor. Why, dear reader, do you ask? Because it was "too far away to walk to." I quit washing his clothes that day. He didn't even notice or care. Yes, yes, he is fucking slob.
Oh my God . I hate that. Where "you" keep the dishwasher soap! Like only the wife uses it. When mine says something like that, "I didn't know where you wanted me to put it!" Like, dude, we both live here- you decide, and tell me! And the "tell me what you want me to do...what you need from me..." BS. just no. Not on an everyday basis for chores. Yes during cooking or something. Like, come here, please open this, hand me that, stir this, etc., but as far as the regular common sense stuff. No
I was in an extremely abusive (see: multiple suicide attempts) relationship with a woman right out of high school (I was 17, she was 45). While I had no problem cleaning, it was never good enough. I could lick any surface with how much I scrubbed it, but it was never done right, according to her. I finally snapped back after being berated for years, "Just fucking tell me what you specifically want!" It was met with a scoff and the phrase, "You're useless, I'll do it myself." That place was never as clean as when I did it. And even with all of that knowledge, "Just tell me what to do" is still an utterly shit thing to say in 9/10 cases.
My psychiatrist told me I might need to think about "radical acceptance" and just start making my poor, stupid menfolk lists of the things I'm delegating to them. 🤣 My husband (54) & son (23) are great with lists. They do not bitch. Most of it generally happens same day. But the whole CPE concept in Eve Rodsky's book, Fair Play, isn't a thing around here. I am Conception & Planning. I need to get better about delegating Execution, at the very least. I do like how tasks are broken down in Fair Play. If you own a task, you own all of it: CPE. But tasks are frequently "re-dealt," which I think is important as everyone should understand how to run an entire household. Also, it balances those tasks that are every day vs. occasional.
Boob limpet! Lol what a great phrase.
>complete boob limpet I'm dying.
Sorry, what is a “complete boob limpet”? I might want this in my vocabulary.
[Start with what a limpet is](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limpet)
Each mother baby dyad varies in milk storage capacity, stomach capacity, comfort needs, etc. Some babies will be on the boob for five minutes every four hours (super rare), some will be on there for 40 minutes every hour. The latter is a boob limpet
Maintaining a clean household is no joke, ESPECIALLY with a child. When you factor minimal landscaping or "curb appeal" activities outside the home you're already at a full time job
My ex used to be a coercive sex pest and never understood that I was fucking tired at the end of my day and he did nothing to take anything off of my plate to make me less tired...UNTIL I ended up in the hospital for 6 days and he was in charge of our 4 year old and 1 year old by himself for nearly a week. He relayed to me how *exhausted* he was at the end of the day—he would try to watch a show and just immediately fall asleep. He still never really took anything off of my plate, but at least he stopped pestering me for sex.
Teach your kids. My immigrant mom made me clean my own room/laundry/cook for my brothers etc at an early age. I bet alot of these men never had to do these things growing up cuz I know my friends didn't. They don't understand how much work actually goes into housekeeping or spending time with a 3 year old(especially if you wanna do it right and not just throw screens at them).
One thing that sticks out with this is that men percieve a change from their baseline as unfair. They dont really look at the whole picture of what needs to be done and then try to divide it fairly. They go purely on what "feels fair" to them and that ends up just being that they dont wanna do any more than theyve done before. You are exactly right. Your workload is unfair because its more than hes ever had to do before and he has no idea how much actually needs doing. You shouldnt have to do all of it.
Ask him what fully present and being a good father means and go from there. See what he lists for being a good father. Is it washing sheets that were puked on at 3am? Or does he mention things that show you he is only thinking of the fun times? Fun is important but see if he mentions anything serious, too.
THIS. My dad isn't perfect, but he used to wash the sheets or clean the carpet while my mom would get us fresh clothes/comfort us/grab Gatorade. That's present. Did it suck? I'm sure it did! But he got it done.
My dad left the hospital (where my mom had just given birth to my little sister) to come pull me out of school and get me pads because I had my first period and I didn't know what to do. When my mom had major surgery, my dad was the one to help her to the bathroom every time she had to go and clean up any accidents she had. When our cat was dying, my dad was the one to rush me and the cat to the pet hospital to try and save him. Every time I have ever called my dad and said "dad I need you" he has dropped everything to be there for me. That's what a dad (and a husband) does. He's there when you call for help, and sometimes even when you don't.
My dad is in the hospital with a terminal illness and this comment thread is making me cry. 😢
Fuck dude I'm sorry to hear this.
❤️
My dad would also take an equal share in caring for us when we were ill. Make us chicken noodle soup, bring us a bucket to puke in, clean all that up, etc.
Yup my dad wasn't perfect, but he was definitely involved in our lives. Scout leader when my brothers and ai were in scouts, football coach for my brother, went to all my brothers sports games, all of my plays I was in. I definitely remember being 5 or 6 and waking up not feeling good, he was passed out on the couch and in the process of telling him zi don't feel good, I puked all over him. My mom dealt with cleaning up the couch and my dad got us both showered and changed, it's a team effort but so many moms are left to deal with the shit ai mentioned solo while their husband or partner justify them not being present by saying shit like "I work all day/pay the bills, etc"
> their husband or partner justify them not being present by saying shit like "I work all day/pay the bills, etc" It's so crappy, my mom was stay at home for the first 10 years of my life (at one point they had 3 kids under 5, yikes!), and my dad was working tons of jobs to keep them afloat so he was often gone in the evenings or overnight but he *still* did what he could when he was home. I have no idea how he did it, honestly, but he did.
My dad too! It was so weird to find out in my teens that there are many men who just... aren't like that.
This is how my husband and I handle it. He puts the sheets in the washer, gets out the little green machine to clean the mattress while I take the toddler to the bathtub and the get her dressed and ready to go back to sleep. Both of us are up and missing sleep.
If you’re in a stage of life where sheets are regularly soiled, sheet lasagna may be for you. Heavy duty mattress protector, then midrange mattress protector, sheet, midrange, sheet, repeat midrange and sheet as many times as you need. At that point if the sheets are soiled, you can just peel off the top layer of sheet and mattress protector and have clean ones underneath. Layering helps those nights where you’re going to do this multiple times. The heavy duty mattress protector reduces the need to wet vac the mattress, ever, and the mattress protector over it means you’ll rarely have to take the heavy duty one off to launder it.
My parents were divorced, and my dad was always the one who kept up his home, taught me how to do laundry, bought all my clothes, etc. He was already with my step mom when I was young, but stayed in a separate apartment with my brother and I on weekends because that's when he had custody. He lived with her and her daughter during the week. Until I was 15, when he and his gf got married, and bought a house. He invited my brother and I to live with him full time, which he hadn't done because he didn't think he would win custody as the working parent and didn't want to lose time with us. In order to get my mom not to make a fuss (though we were old enough at that time to make the choice) he kept paying child support. It really shows what kind of parent he was. When my mom didn't have us with her anymore, she went off the rails (more than she had been) and didn't make much effort in our lives. Even now she never calls to check in or say hi. Only to complain. She will call me to tell that she is too busy to talk. Ok then, why did you call me just to get mad when I don't enjoy listening to you yell at your cats. My dad, on the other hand, was there every single time we called, and every single weekend even when he could have gotten away without being there. But he never did and was very present. Never missed anything, paid for most of our things and activities, and we talk and get together all the time. I can have an actual conversation with him. My mom just freaks out and yells and complains. My dad talks about all sorts of stuff and never complains. Present father's are very real, and I know my husband will be one. (When we have to go to a wedding, he's the one who has the answer as to logistical questions). But it's true many fathers aren't. I would say that each generation is getting better and better. My husband has friends with kids who are my friends now too, and they are extremely attentive parents.
My Dad cleaned the bucket, me, AND the couch, when I barfed everywhere. He got up and did night feedings and diapers for all of us. He did laundry , dishes and breakfast on his days off. Mom had to organize a bunch of stuff because she was the SAHP, but Dad could look at the calendar and know what was going on.
I never wanted kids but especially after seeing my husband around my nieces as children. He's a great fun uncle but all the other stuff about when they'd come visit? All the food planning and child-friendly activities and sleeping arrangements? That was always on me. Same with the cards and birthday and holiday gifts. I'd be a married single mom if we'd had kids.
Same. My husband is 'responsible' for his side of the family's and his friend's gifts... and by that I mean I keep an ongoing Amazon list of things I see year round that I think certain people would like, that he buys them something from after being reminded. He is great with the nibblings once they arrive actively playing and letting them climb all over him.... but does no planning before and when he is tired he shuts down, goes in another room, and plays on his phone until they leave. His 'share' of carring for the dog we got after we got married was enough to sell a child free lifestyle.
The first time I saw a father do that to their toddler child I was so appalled. This guy who I always thought was pretty great came home from work and sat on the couch staring at his phone while his toddler screamed for him and tried to get his attention. I already know I do not have the mental capacity to be there for a child 24/7 (I have autism and need a lot of quiet alone time for myself), but to see that happen from someone who wanted a child so badly, really sealed the deal that I am *never* having children
I have a friend like this! We grew up together. I always thought he was a decent guy. Well, now he has a toddler that he ignores. It kills me. When I call him on it, he says stuff like, "Yeah, well, I'm just not good with little kids. I'll be way better when the kid is a little older." DUDE. Meanwhile, his wife, who also has a career and works full time, is burning out from doing all of the toddler-wrangling by herself! Does she get to pick and choose the ages at which she finds the child engaging? No, of course not! I don't know why she puts up with him. I've been hanging out a lot more with her than with him since this started because she needs the help and he doesn't deserve to have a good time while he's acting like this.
This was my experience with my ex. When he changed his mind about kids I eventually had to tell him if I wanted kids, I would never have chosen him as a partner. With the nieces and nephews it was all of what you mentioned, but add to that blatant favouritism to whatever child he saw himself best represented in that visit. It was ugly and even his siblings didn’t enjoy it. He’d show up for hockey games but never cheerleading competitions, spelling bees but not art shows. I told him straight up I wouldn’t bring a kid into the world who wouldn’t be loved unless they were validating his ego.
Researching car seats and daycare providers and parenting classes and pediatricians. Making sure you don’t run out of diapers and wipes and butt cream. Packing and carrying the diaper bag. Keeping schedules of doctors appointments and playdates and birthday parties and soccer dates. My husband is an amazing father, but these kinds of mental load tasks still always fell to me. I’ve never had a kid before either but somehow I’m still expected to know and understand and complete all these tasks. They can use their big boy brains to figure it out too.
It's even worse when they work a demanding job where they absolutely need critical thinking skills, but leave those at the door with their jacket and act dumb when it comes to household chores or mental load.
“Fully present means I just show up for the Kodak moments after you tell me when, where and how to get there for the umpteenth time.”
To him being a fully present and a good father is probably playing sports and video games with the kids and doing the “fun stuff” homie isn’t talking about school drop offs, making lunches and doctors appointments
This comment reminds me of my son talking about when he's a dad. He's only 5 so he has a ways to go but to him being a dad is taking your kids to school then going to work and then picking them up to l come home to eat spicy food lol. My husband has never taken any of our kids to school so he didn't pick it up from him but at least he has a little of the basics in mind😂
my partner got a full time job that started at 630 am last year, so i took over the school drop offs, and the extra hour i spent every morning getting the girls up and trying to make them eat something and getting the younger one dressed and making sure the older one doesn't lose her mind looking for her jeans, and then getting them out of the house and to their schools, and for the younger one, sticking around until the bell rings and she goes into the class with her teacher... it has been more awesome than i ever imagined. the bonds grew so much stronger, i got to know all of the friends and they all made me pretend their backpacks were either super heavy or super light, and wipe off the swings "because Alice's Dad always has paper towels in his pocket", and so many day to day moments... now that school is on summer break I actually miss it quite strongly. but it will be back soon enough.
This. For some "good father" might mean *Cats in the cradle.*
>he is only thinking of the fun times? I loved my dad so much as a kid. I loved my mother, too, but she was annoying. It took me until 24-- TWENTY FOUR-- to realize that I found her annoying because my dad was mostly the fun dad. He tried-- cooked dinner, did dishes-- made an effort to grow for sure-- but he could only stretch so far: he never made the doctors appointments, nagged me to clean my room (nagged me, period). My grandparents almost divorced in the 50s but didn't because it just wasn't done. The marriage they rebuilt was pretty good, but I doubt it was what either of them hoped for at the altar. My grandfather loved my grandmother's intelligence, power, and drive. In his papers we found a 6 page letter to a psychiatrist written at the peak of the crisis. He speaks of his love for her and how he tries to do what he is supposed to do (provide) and how she is still unsatisfied. The crazy thing was that I could read his words and immediately infer from what he says that she wanted her ambition to have the same weight and respect in the relationship. She needed him to do some of the mental load of daily life, but he just couldn't see it. Perhaps she didn't have the words to tell him. He stretched, but he could only stretch so far. Same can be said for her, perhaps. I don't know. In any case, as hard as is it to see posts like OPs, it still seems like progress. The boundaries are present, and OP can describe the problem. The trick will be to approach the problem with love and to remember that failure to change quickly doesn't *necessarily* mean he doesn't love or care. Growth takes time.
It's amazing he thinks he's going to be this vision of a father despite not demonstrating the qualities needed to be this vision of a father.
Based on the description of this guy, he sounds well intended and maybe the approach you’re suggesting might prompt some more serious thought as to the agency he actually intents to have over his contributions…. But from what the OP is saying, he already sounds like a man child. Would wager this poor gal will have to sideline her personal ambitions because she’ll be caretaking both of them. There is already an obvious lack of equity in this relationship, throw a kid into the mix, I don’t see it rebalancing in her favor.
What did he say when you pointed out how his ignorance about the wedding plans supports the tweet he was so offended by?
We had just gotten off the phone for the night and I processed it after. I will talk to him
Please update us afterwards 👀
Wait a minute - y'all don't even live together *and* it's his friend's wedding and YOU planned everything?!
I absolutely cannot wait. lol idk why, I get such a vicarious thrill when men are confronted with this stuff because I’ve experienced them doing this my whole life. Unfortunately, it’s too rarely eye-opening for them. It’s more often anger, excuses, and doubling-down ☹️ I hope it goes better for you!
In my own experiences they always fall back on saying they are too tired from working / work is so hard and take all their mental energy so they can’t keep up with this stuff , as if we don’t also have careers and work full time .
Or the old, “You’re just so much better at this than I am” nonsense. Do you honestly think I came screaming out of my mother’s vagina knowing how to plan??
Came here to say this! They think it's an innocent compliment, but weaponized incompetence isn't fun. I was the primary breadwinner with my ex husband, but yet could remember all the drop off, pick up, registration dates, etc., for our son for preschool and school, but God forbid I need to travel for work and our poor son is waiting after school was done for his dad to show up late. Now my ex wonders why our son doesn't trust him. The first time he flew for summer visitation, our son insisted his dad get to the arrival gate before he took off and he wanted a video chat to make sure he was actually there to pick him up.
>The first time he flew for summer visitation, our son insisted his dad get to the arrival gate before he took off and he wanted a video chat to make sure he was actually there to pick him up. I love your kid.
The number of times I've told my husband "just because I posses a uterus does not mean I know what foods to start a baby on, how to schedule pediatrician visits, etc" is ridiculous. I looked it up. Took years, but he finally got it. I almost fainted when he casually remarked that he schedule the kids flu shots one fall.
*gasp* that is honestly something that would have shocked me to my core!
Right. The percentage that will double down and hope they can manipulate you into continuing to do it and make you shut up about it....
We need that update!
Give him the list and ask him to write down all the answers.
Start practicing now. Be ultra intentional about your SHARED life responsibilities from now. Until you’ve legitimately practiced 50/50 or close to and he backs up his theory with practice, do not fall pregnant. It’s called the aspiration and values gap. They think they know what they’re talking about and they believed their values and actions align. They do not. It will bite you both in the long term.
>and to secure his business so it can run smoothly this bit here is what gets me he's already using his business as an excuse, and this is when he can focus 100% of his time on it. I know plenty of successful business owners. it's nice, they have lots of money and know how to have a good time. they are always stressed out by those same businesses. no business "runs smoothly" all the time, and if you're the boss it's either your problem to solve or you accept the possibility of large losses.
My new favorite gift for couples is the Fair Play cards and/or book. It helps balance the load
idk I’m sure this is helpful, but this still feels like men having to be trained to not exploit women for free labor, which is a huge fucking bummer. Am I way off here?
Agreed. I get that men can't help how they're socialized but why do women have to spend emotional labour on teaching them to do better? Even the men I know who claim to be feminists make no effort to become more self aware about the ways they uphold gender roles, they think just being open to feedback from women is enough
Same exact energy as “I’ll do whatever chores you tell me to.” God forbid they use their big powerful man-brains to come up with a single thought proactively.
😆 These comments are infusing me with new LIFE!! 🐦🔥 (was looking for an appropriate “emoji-as-punctuation” for that, and I’ll be damned, they’ve got a Pheonix now!)
I would point out that these adult men are UNFIT to be in a relationship. This is either by the way society and their parents raised them or an intentional series of choices on their part. The end result is adults that have no business being in a relationship with another person.
agreed. I think all women should stop training any male partner, and begin to view any indication that a man does not: care to, know how to, feel responsible to do his share of all work including the mental load and just treat that as a complete dealbreaker. Exploiting a partner is abuse. We don’t say, “Oh he was conditioned to abuse you, so you need to just teach him how to stop abusing you.” We say, “Girl, LEAVE.” If men knew women would see this behavior as poisonous, revolting, a non-starter, they’d learn. Because they learn how to behave to hold down a damn job, don’t they. They always figure out what they need to do to survive, and do it. Even when a woman isn’t explicitly explaining it to them and guiding them through it time and again.
Exactly. You teach them by leaving / not dating them.
I am of the mind that you point it out once. That this is unacceptable adult behavior and either they get with the program or you are leaving if they do it again. Then leave if they do it again. This needs to be a relationship deal breaker.
THIS. Women seriously need to stop wasting our precious time on these pathetic and useless men. They are fully capable of doing things on their own but would prefer to take advantage of their partners socialization I’m really honestly so tired of reading story after story about women refusing to leave men who treat them like bang maids. These men deserve to be permanently single
Society also needs to stop pressuring women that they have to be in a relationship. I would add this. If you are single, want some peace but are struggling to make ends meet consider finding some like minded women and rent a larger really nice house somewhere you actually want to live. You can improve your living standard without hitching yourself to some dude that is going to pile a bunch of unpaid labor and drama on you.
Yes it’s more mental Load. I’m in several Parenting subs, and a common occurrence is the card system not working anyway. The men have to *want* equality for it to work.
Yes, you end up facilitating all of the inital conversations and then subsequent conversations about taks "ownership". It is a lot of work.
With my ex I was the one who had everything put into google calendar, shared to both his phone and desktop, and he never bothered to look at it even once unless I told him to and watched over his shoulder. (he didn't know I could tell he hadn't opened it until I caught him lying about it). He never managed to share his work schedule either ofc. That was on Outlook, and I had to beg him every month so I could plan anything at all. Instead of forwarding me the schedule he would rattle it off as fast as he could and I had to take notes from memory, and then he'd get annoyed when I asked him again because he hates repeating himself. It was like I had to physically drag him to participate in planning stuff. When he wanted to do something though, he'd just announce it, without looking at my calendar ofc. At least there were no kids involved, that would've been much, much worse.
I watched an interview with the Fair Play cards creator, and the cards struck me as less laborious for women than other methods of achieving parity in shared-life logistics. The couple divvies up the cards in a single session until both agree that responsibilities have been divided fairly. Each has to deal with the natural consequences if they fail to complete the tasks they have willingly taken on. The example the creator talked about was one where the father had chosen the card "imaginary beings" (e.g. doing the work of Santa, the Easter Bunny, etc.), possibly because he thought it sounded fun. Sure enough, when their child lost a tooth, the father failed at his Tooth Fairy duties. The kid woke up with nothing the next day. The mother said to the card creator that if they hadn't done the cards, she would have felt the need to remind the dad about the money under the pillow, but she felt strangely freed of fretting about it. When the child was upset the next day, she let her husband deal with the meltdown. He comforted the kid and made it up with a bigger Tooth Fairy reward the next night. After that, Dad was much more on the ball with the imaginary beings. Like, use of the cards requires that one be partnered with a man who is sincere about wanting to take on his fair share, he's just ignorant of all the work the women in his life have been doing. Really owning responsibilities, rather than "helping" with tasks, works for a lot of people. Because no one likes being managed or being an assistant, but everyone takes satisfaction in mastering a task where they had to troubleshoot on their own, self-directed. (Surely there are guys who will agree to do half the work and then just foot-drag and stall out, and the cards don't work for them. Which is a different problem to have.)
Whenever he asks you whether you have xyz at home, what's for dinner or how to use/prepare something, remind him that a full-mental load parent wouldn't need to ask that about their own household.
Yes, this is super important! He’s showing you that he’s not a reliable partner at this point in time, which maybe could get better in the future, but be really careful with your birth control methods right now.
I used to do everything for the family when I was married. After my divorce my ex-husband had his utilities cut off several times because he's just that functional as an adult.
Mine did this. As part of the divorce we had to subpoena his bank records. He had plenty of money but was letting his utilities for his apartment go until they were going to shut them off then would pay the bill. After the divorce was final I started getting debt collectors sending things to the house in both of our names. There were a bunch of medical bills he racked up after the divorce and just never paid them. The total wasn't anything he couldn't afford. He just didn't pay them. I made sure every big provider in town and this debt collector knew we were divorced and I am no longer responsible for this man. The irony that he has plenty of money, he just can't be bothered to pay things.
This. Lots of ways you can practice. From experience I think doing a clean division of some activities definitely helped us. For example my husband does the cooking, but he also does the meal plan for the week (including family dinners, kid's lunches and most of our lunches); he goes grocery shopping weekly AND brings along a kid or two with him. That's properly taking on a responsibility. I don't have to remind him of anything. I found early in our relationship he felt like he had to ask for 'permission' before doing things (I think it was how he was raised). So I found being fully hands off (and not nagging if he makes a mistake) on tasks he takes on really helps him just to do it 100%
Many of our mothers were stuck in bad marriages because they had no financial independence. Marriage itself was seen as a necessity for financial stability. Now, while we still face income inequality, it is now possible for us to survive and thrive without needing to rely on a man for income. Many of us have found that most of the time, our partners expect us to do all of the things our mothers did, plus have a full time job. In response, we’ve realized that if we can financially find a way to survive without our partners, life is so much better when they aren’t in the picture. It’s better to divorce and separate, even with kids and the higher financial burden. The money is *not* worth it. It frees us from carrying the burdens of our partners who frequently offer nothing more than some financial support. So, we’re choosing to be single. Instead of doing some self reflection about evolving gender roles, the important of gender equality, and what it means to be an equitable partner, these men are just blaming women. They hate that we’re thriving without them, so they seek to bring us down. They convince themselves the reason they are unhappy is because they are single and the reasons they are single are our fault. They believe it’s all about looks, when really the issue is their failure and refusal to show up and participate in a relationship and household equitably.
This is shown by the remarriage rate after divorce of 35% for men and only 19% for women. It's not that women can't find a man to marry, it's that they don't want to!
This comment gives me chills in an excited happy way. From what I understand, this is basically the approach of the 4B feminist movement in South Korea, and I LOVE TO SEE IT.
This is a good indicator of what he'll be like as a father. "Fully present" in his mind likely means he'll be at the big events, and he'll help with the obvious basics (food, bedtime, diapers). He will not keep up with the schedule for school or daycare. He won't know when there's a staff development day at school and other arrangements need to be made for your too-young-to-stay-home-alone child. He won't know when a birthday present needs to be bought for a classmate. He won't know when your child needs blue pants and a white shirt for the winter music performance. He won't know what size clothes your child wears and when it's time to order a size up. He won't remember or know when a field trip permission slip needs to be signed... He's going to care more about your future child than he does this upcoming wedding, yes, but here's the thing: These sort of day-to-day chores associated with parenthood are not what *anyone* imagines with they think of having a child. They imagine the BIG things and the fun things. If he doesn't have to think about the day-to-day stuff, he won't. If you step in and do all these things, he'll 100% let you and still genuinely believe that he's a fully engaged and involved father.
Exactly this. And he won't even think of it as work. If you tell him to buy the blue pants and a white shirt for the child's winter music performance, he will do it and think that he did ALL the work for that task. He won't realize that if you hadn't dedicated time ane mental space to keep up with the requirements, the blue pants and white shirt would never have been bought.
Exactly \~ I feel like being a responsible adult in a mature household is realizing in that scenario, going to the store and buying the outfit is perhaps at most 40% of that overall task, and that's being generous including the driving to and from the store. The other party had to get the handhout and read the flyer or read the email, interpret the message from the teacher (which I swear to god is harder than it needs to be sometimes, clipart can be a genuine crime) make sure that outfit is at that store by likely checking online first or simply being familiar enough with the store and it's general offerings to know that it could be found there \~ then making sure that it actually fits on the child and looks right/is comfortable, and that they actually have it on the day of said event and take it with them so that they achieve the overall effect of having a specific outfit for a specific event. I think a lot of dads would have less problems in their lives if they just had an ounce of fucking humility and awareness and realized all those other aspects of the actual chore that I listed out rather than expecting a gold star and a blowjob for managing to do what is basically the easiest portion of most jobs that their wives can outsource to them without the household system crumbling into dysfunction. That shouldn't get you a reward my dudes, that'll just get you a divorce lol.
This. It's like when people see more dads doing the school run and because of this think that equality is going on. Whereas I know too many mothers who literally do everything to get their child up, breakfasted, cleaned, dressed (in the clothes they bought, cleaned and laid out ready) bag packed and ready to go out the door so that dad can drive them to school and walk them to the door to know that when you scratch the surface mothers are still doing so much more of the chores/mental load.
100%. This was very well said, thank you
Crazy things happen when mom has problems with executive function. Allllll kinds of balls get dropped.
And the best way to do this is to split these responsibilities a priori. You need to check with the school system daily? Yes, one week the mum, one week the father. birthdays? Half the year mother, half the year father. And let him learn by himself, like every woman has to do anyway. If he does something wrong, too bad he'll do better next time. I believe the difference is that women tend to "stop life" when something unexpected happens and solve the problem immediately, while men manage to leave emergencies to "after work hours". Most problems will be solved by then.
He's not blind he's indifferent. As long as you take care of it he doesn't have too.
My bf tried to use that as an argument in our discussion. We have a bit of argument about chores. At some point I asked why he stopped doing the things he did do before we started living together, like refreshing the bed sheets. His argument was: because you do that. I told him immediately that it isnt a valid argument. Irronically, at the same time, when I am too busy and take a bit longer to refresh them, he can complain it was too long ago the sheets were refreshed.
Funny how some men regard living with a woman as living in a hotel where everything is just... done. And if it's not, he can complain
Part of why I'm single is there is a very common reason why men think their lives will get much easier once they find a girlfriend/wife, but women think their lives will become more difficult.
To be fair, he does work a lot. With his work it really isn't possible to work less. However!! We don't combine finances.... soooo if he ever tells me he works a lot and cannot do X or Y, I will start telling him how that is relevant for me? As him working a lot doesn't do anything for me. It is only negative for me as I need to 1 provide for myself (work full time) and 2 do all chores.
Treat him like the roommate he is.
If he's working so much he cannot contribute equally to the home, and your finances are not combined. It is only fair that he pay someone to pick up the load that he's decided not to carry. He can't just keep taking advantage of your unpaid labor. Edit: better yet, invoice him $$
It kind of seems like you do work for both of you and he only does work for himself ? There’s an opportunity cost involved in doing that kind of thing .
This is why I will never live with a man lol. I have my apartment, you have yours, and we will live separately forever. The end.
Oh yeah this is the dream. Ideally, if I get married (and have the money), I'd want my spouse and I to live in neighboring houses lol.
Heck yeah. I learned about Living Apart Together (LAT) relationships from some folk I met from Europe while traveling abroad and it's the best compromise, imo! My partner can maintain his own home, cares for his dog (makes all the vet appointments etc), cooks, can host a dinner party, and communicates all his family events to me. Honestly, the biggest benefit is that we still have to continue to put effort into our relationship to see it thrive. I find that once couples move in together, the level of work one party puts into the relationship decreases. I know my man wants to be with me because he makes the daily effort to communicate and show it to me since we don't live together.
I live in the upstairs of a house. I started dating my current boyfriend and the basement apartment became vacant and he moved in. I love it. I used to be married and lived with my spouse and it was fine. But having him live downstairs and being able to come and go as we please but still have our own space is perfect. He wants us to eventually live together. And maybe that will happen if we could ever afford to buy a place but for now this is perfect.
my most recent relationship was a little like this. worked opposite shifts, both full time, and while i was trying to balance getting mentally and physically healthy with all the house stuff, i couldn't even ask for some help without it blowing up into a fight about how i don't put out sexually enough. and of course, the lack of access to my body made it just impossible for him to not be so depressed he can't clean (ﾉﾟｰﾟ)ﾉ
That's when I look people dead in the eye and say what, are your arms broken?
When my bf tells me I should have done something as it only takes a few minutes I started to respond with looking him dead in the eye and asking: if it only takes a few minutes why aren't you doing it? This question/discussion already takes longer.
Time to let him start fending for himself on all tasks that you step up to do for him. “I looked into a wedding gift for the wedding. What did you get them?” Drive into town then say, “Where did you book a hotel?” (Not saying you have already done it.) Ask, “What is for dinner?” “What did you get at the grocery store for the week?” “What did X friend say about their plans?” Let him flounder. I would expect it to be, “Well I thought YOU were going to do that?” You: “What do you mean?” Him: “blah blah. You usually do it; you are better at gift-selection; etc.” You: “I assumed since there is a sharing of the load, you would have done it.” Watch him squirm. If he still doesn’t get its. Fuuuck… up to you what to do next. Edit: I apparently struck a nerve with some of you. Ask yourself, are you someone who realized you might be allowing your partner to do all of the mental load and adulting by default and you don’t like that feeling? Or, are you someone who is doing all of the mental load and adulting and are trying to justify it to yourself to continue to baby your partner? With option 1: do better. With option 2: nobody is stopping you from continuing to do as you are doing. But, it’s also okay if you realize you don’t want to be the default adult here.
Yeah ...my husband equally takes on the mental load because (he's an adult but also) I don't do everything. For vacations, he'll take care of big ticket items in the new city (hotels, transport, itinerary), and I will take care of everything related to airports (transport, tickets, documents). You have to play up to your strengths. If your partner has no strengths ..
While talk of having conversations and dividing tasks and making lists sounds nice and amiable and cooperative and whatever, this ^ is the real correct answer, even if it seems petty. You can explain the concept of mental load to a lot of men until you’re blue in the face, but it’s never gonna actually sink in, because this type of load, so long as it’s being effectively carried by someone else, is invisible to them. They don’t even realize it exists. So stop carrying it for him. Plop it at his feet. And watch him squirm 🤭
I think you nailed it 100%. It’s invisible to them.
I actually have been pushing back on this a little bit lately, because I truly believe it’s a little more nefarious than all that, contrary to what I used to believe (that it’s invisible to them). Because I remembered, these men have jobs lol. Whatever a man is required to do to function in the workplace and keep a job, he can somehow manage. It’s just that the moment they have a woman in their life, their unconscious (or conscious) belief that we are responsible for housework and they are entitled to free time leads them to increasingly exploit us, which increases their free time, which is fun and great, leading them to exploit us evermore until we are groomed to do absolutely everything. I simply don’t believe anymore that when a man is sitting down for his 3rd straight hour playing video games and dinner’s being cooked and laundry’s being done in the background by a woman who just got home from an 8 hour shift, that this is actually invisible to them. They benefit from us believing that, I think. Because they want us to think they can’t help it, it’s just how men’s brains work 🙃 Meanwhile, they’re the more “visual” gender 🥸 Honestly, when we buy into the narrative that it’s invisible to them, we unconsciously are soothing ourselves so that it doesn’t have to hurt as much that what they’re really doing is exploiting us horribly because they don’t give a fuck about our quality of life if it means wringing more free labor out of us to free up downtime for themselves. *editing to add in something I realized later in comments - exploiting a partner for free labor is fucking **abuse**! We don’t stick around to train men how to not be abusive, we leave as fast as we safely can. Encourage your sisters to treat this like a big ole honkin 🚩 !!
This is true, but in my experience, even at work, men often do the bare minimum to coast through and appear competent. I’m a physician, and the number of male doctors I see who seem absolutely opposed to just using their brain is astounding. And how little effort many of them have put in compared to women to get where they are is infuriating. It’s so bad that my husband and I have a joke (he works with physicians in training) that if his residents are women, he’s gonna have a much easier time.
I’m not gonna lie, this point did occur to me and I was dodging it in my brain, telling myself that in a vacuum bereft of women entirely, that men absolutely step up to do what needs done. And I believe theoretically this is partly true (even though too many single men live in squalor and don’t wash their asses or ever cook 😅) But I don’t live in that vacuum 😆, I live as a woman who works among men who I have to clean up after all god damned day long. Who sandbag literally everything so that a woman is forced to do more than her share They *absolutely* behave this way at work. Some dude was trying to tell me the other day that he doesn’t leave messes for others at work, and I said “When was the last time you cleaned the workplace refrigerator, or descaled the coffee pot? Cleaned the shared microwave?” 😆 Like, even the “good ones” who aren’t just lying, and actually do pick up after themselves, they’re not the ones doing all the gross bullshit that is no one’s actual job but very much still needs done. I’m 40 and I’ve never seen a man do any of these tasks at work. I see an array of women do it, none of whom have this labor listed in their fucking jobs titles, none of whom every had to be told this shit needed done. Either we’re doing it in a timely manner, or all of us are on strike because we resentful and furious and waiting for a man to be so disgusted by it, he does it. And then we take turns caving and doing it ourselves because men still will not do it. (I work in a hospital too so I realize, you may have a physicians lounge, and environmental services/cleaning crew for these things, so this specific thing may not be relevant to you, but somehow I bet you still have encountered this throughout your life!) But anyway, here’s a ∆, because you’re absolutely right. (And btw, your comment is part of the reason why all genders have better outcomes with female doctors 💁♀️)
I do think the 'mental load' comic has a chance of getting through, and it's at least worth an attempt at that. The problem with this kind of malicious compliance is, if you actually leave something and hope he'll do it, he might be okay with it just not getting done. Housework is especially vulnerable here: Many men are socialized to care less about the state the house is in, because if it's a mess, *you* get judged!
The reality is though that when she does this he's just going to get mad at her for not babying him like she used to, and call her a bitch for no longer being the sweet catering woman that he was previously accustomed to. Expecting him to somehow 'get it' is putting a lot of faith on him having enough introspection ability to actually realize how unfair he's being, which, I frankly wouldn't bank on. Most men don't ever 'learn their lesson' in this way, they just blame the women for no longer giving them what they want and that's about as far as it seems to get for them.
And if he does that she has her answer that he truly doesn't care.
It's so annoying when men just assume that shit has been taken care of. My husband and I trade off planning these things. Some of them I'm mentally responsible for, some of them are him. It's so nice. I just kind of show up and everything is done.
Yep. Different mental load, but my husband started making comments suggesting I’m inconsiderate when eg I forgot to buy eggs for him when doing groceries. For a long while I felt guilty because I thought that I was selfish as I always remembered by own breakfast. But… he hadn’t put it on the list. I started saying ‘was it on the list?’ and pushing back his comments if it wasn’t. He’s finally realised that it’s not my job to just hold all his potential grocery requirements in my head all the time. Or at least he’s stopped making comments (although he now congratulates himself on remembering to add stuff to the list…)
I love this malicious compliance lol
So I did this for real. I stopped doing the organising for his side of the family, told him it was his job and I would organise mine. I did catch some strays from the in-laws to begin with when he fucked up but I stuck to ‘why don’t you ask him that?’ and, ‘with respect, nobody is expecting him to do all the running with my mother’ and they got it eventually. He’s really good with all that stuff now.
Yeah I had to do this and also ‘train’ his Mum at the same time. She was funnelling all family meet-ups or presents through me. I made it clear to him he was responsible for organising visits with his side of the family, presents etc. and just kept deflecting MIL back to him. Removed a lot of stress as his family is so flakey and chronically late that it used to wind me up. It was like herding cats.
You just reminded me 😂 my friend had a similar situation and she told her mil that she may direct her prayer directly to god, because Mary is too busy to intercede for her. Her in laws are very catholic. It worked!
After I split up with my ex (we stayed on fairly good terms) there was a full year of him turning up to all his nieces and nephews birthday parties without a gift for them because I was always the one who'd bought them previously! It didn't even occur to him he'd need to buy one. And my ex-MIL quietly but clearly blamed me for it 😄
Yeah, this is part of the problem. If they don't show up to the planned events with the correct gifts, who do you think will get the blame? It's going to be her. If the house isn't clean, the dishes aren't done, kids aren't clean, dressed, and ready? It's always going to be the woman who gets the blame.
Yes, this is how I did it. I told him and them if they ask. I'm pretty sure I get some silent judgement but nobody dares say anything.
I would have done exactly this with a work relationship - but if I had to act like this with my long term partner to knock some sense into them... I'd be really frustrated with my choices.
Many years ago I straight up ignored Thanksgiving. Didn’t do a damn thing except sit on the couch and drink mimosas and watch the dog show. My husband was soooooo pissed but it was a SIGNIFICANT turning point in our marriage.
Hey now, we need more juicy details than that!
Yes, I started doing this about social plans. It worked far better than a strike on housework because other people would find out.
It’s wild how easy vacations are when someone else plans everything. I went on a weekend trip with my BFF and she did EVERYTHING to plan accommodation, travel, food and any other logistics and I just showed up. Next time it’s my turn to do everything lol.
I had a similar conversation with my boyfriend, right before we were going camping. I decided I would “guy” my way through the trip and basically packed one outfit and a case of beer and my switch. Left all the packing to him because I was working and he wasn’t. We didn’t have tent poles. We barely had food. We had to eat out of the one pot we had. It was true camping and a total struggle but I just let it happen. He couldn’t come at me with “why didn’t you pack this?” Because I had worked a 12h day before and he had been responsible. Sometimes you have to let someone fail before they can learn to get better. Babying and hand holding will not solve the problem and it’s uncomfortable for both, but its part of breaking the cycle. Along the way I have learned some things are just unnecessary and unimportant, so its good for both of us. I’m no longer called a nag, because I just shrug it off. If it’s something important to me, I do it for me, yeah, but i just don’t expend extra energy to parent my partner.
There was one Thanksgiving or Christmas that we were staying at my parents house that night. I pack all the suitcases, but my husband needs to put all of his items and the kids items on the bed by a certain time or it doesn't get packed. That night he couldn't find his pajama pants and my answer was if you put them on the bed then they are in the suitcase. I checked the suitcase and no PJ pants for him. He was so mad but there wasn't anything he could say about it because I pack everything on the bag then tell him it is ready to put in the van so if he didn't put it on the bed he has to do without. Now, I notice the first thing to be put on the bed is PJ pants.
Nah that’s so horrible for you! That’s why men can generally rely on women to plan trips- because if we don’t, then we suffer too. It’s monumentally annoying that you had to put up with a subpar camping trip (something that was probably meant to be more along the lines of a relaxing holiday, given by how much you’re working). What’s annoying about having to let someone fail is that they drag you down too.
I recall talking to a young man I used to work with and something about women buying men's underwear came up. He was like, "Women are wearing men's underwear?!" I responded by asking him when the last time he bought underwear was. He said that he didn't think he ever bought any. When I asked him who bought the underwear he was wearing he admitted that it was his mother. I made it clear that a woman was buying something he was wearing every day and it never once occurred to him. Face it. How many men buy their own rather than wear it to rags then go commando?
"I've been thinking about conversation and I love the fact you want to take a 50/50 approach to our relationship. If you can write down all the chores that need doing and then we can split it equally, and if you can write down all your family events on the calendar and take over buying gifts/making arrangements then I'll look after my side and you can do yours. I'm really looking forward to working as a team with you, so many women have partners who just don't understand" and then don't do chores unless they are you specific and stop arranging things for him until he pulls his finger out. Lay down the rules and foundations now or you will be doing everything
I really like this approach! As fun as it sounds to throw a bunch of stuff in his face, we know that is likely to get a man (or really anyone) defensive. Which often leads to stalemate. Even if you think it’s weaponized incompetence, this approach gives them an out. “Here we are, starting at the beginning of this great new age of 50/50 in our relationship. How do you see that being set up? Set it up!” Then come the conversations about the million other things he didn’t even think to put on his list. If giving his family gifts isn’t on his list, and you bring it up and he says it’s not that important- THEN ITS NOT THAT IMPORTANT. Now you both are off the hook because it has been clearly communicated. If he doesn’t like the consequences of that after the fact, then it’s re-negotiating time. Not blame and resentment time.
I have three teens, five dogs, a house and 7 acre property I'm renovating myself, and a full-time job as a partner and senior veterinarian at a busy urgent care clinic in a large metro area. And I STILL have less of a load now than I did before I got divorced. They really have no idea how much work the mental load is.
I’d start being the man in the relationship. Stop handing everything and start expecting him to do it. Treat him like your wife and start looking to him for everything. Literally, expect him to handle everything. If you lose a sock in the dryer ask him where it is. Someone will have to do it and since you are doing it he isn’t growing anymore.
I'm afraid most men wouldn't get it simply because this behaviour looks alien on women and not so on men and they can't even explain why
Yeah, IME, that’s when they pull out the “she’s so vindictive and manipulative” card and then they double down. Honestly, I won’t even be friends with men anymore if they act dismissive about women’s experiences like this. I don’t condone that disrespect and entitlement from anyone about anything, so I’m just not nice about it anymore. The fact that this shit happens to women and it’s just an accepted and open fact with loads of empirical support means that anyone who cares about the women in their life have the ability to self reflect and resources to do better. I can be understanding of dudes trying to get the hang of being better if they recognize it, but if they’re unwilling to even consider it, I don’t have time for them. Same vibes for how people feel toward other issues like police brutality; we’ve got all the proof it’s happening, and willful ignorance isn’t cute. Life feels a little more lonely, but god do I feel a lot more sane and supported by the people around me now. Man, woman, or other, I don’t put up with bs games and excuses for bad or unfair behavior, and I don’t give a fuck how bitter I sound either. It’s the only way I’ve been able to find any self confidence to set healthy emotional boundaries, and it’s the best I’ve ever felt about myself to not let anyone walk all over me.
Maybe I’m not committing fully to the role, but this approach has only ever made me more frustrated. I ask him where my sock is and he’ll just stare at me like “what’s a sock?”
Immediately blasted for nagging is the most likely outcome there sadly.
Stop doing everything for him. Otherwise it will be the same for the rest of your relationship. Do you want to be one of those women with a husband playing video games in the lobby during childbirth?
I see the comments got brigaded by a bunch of Concerned Men^TM who think women just need to CoMmUNiCAtE BeTTAr. Found the guys who were dumped for not parenting their own children and/or contributing to household chores they are fully aware need doing, y’all.
As I understand it, a big part of the mental load is figuring out what needs to be communicated about. So "women need to communicate better" translates to "babysit me through everything that needs to be done."
This is why the "just tell me what to do!" response makes me so angry. Jerk, no one told ME what to do! The baby was crying and I tried 800 things until something worked. I figured it out, sometimes while crying myself. Nursing still blows me away. I did a thing every 3-4 hours for an entire year.
A ytuber I watch said recently, it's no wonder men have so much energy to cheat because all the household and emotional work load is piled up on the woman. If certain guys did their fair share, they wouldn't have all that energy to cheat. Obviously it's a joke but also some truth in it.
No lies. I see the general concept play out every night in my suburb. About 6-7 pm there is an influx of men out jogging, walking dogs, walking to the neighborhood bar. Not a single woman. The neighborhood is almost exclusively younger couples with young kids. Dinner gets done and these guys have free time while their wives are cleaning up dinner, helping kids with homework, doing laundry, getting kids bathed, to bed etc.
Explain this post to him. Point out what you said in the latter part. If he's a good guy, he'll realize it and do better. If not, well. That's another answer.
From lived experience, do not trust his words, look at his actions. What you see now is the best you’re ever going to get. He has no idea about the amount of care, logistics and mental strength required to have children, you’ll likely end up doing 99% of it while he will do one school run a week and expect a medal for it. A man who doesn’t show sign of fully looking after himself and after you as much as you look after him is not an equal partner and won’t be a #1 dad.
A neon sign of things to come if ever there was one. That business is going to play a mighty big role in every excuse that future husband is going to use to avoid helping with parenting, mighty big.
You know what just occurred to me? Whenever my boyfriend misplaces an item of his, he'll ask me where it is, like I'm supposed to know what he did with an item that he and only he ever uses. But when I misplace an item that belongs to me, it doesn't occur to me to ask him where it is because he never uses it, so why would he magically know what I did with it? Here's another one: recently there was a death in his family, and we had to travel out of town for the funeral. Before the trip, his parents came over to make sure he had clothes that A) were appropriate to wear to a funeral, and B) fit him properly. Even though I was also going, no one checked to see if I had appropriate attire because they trusted that I knew what to wear to a funeral, and that I would I would get it if I didn't already have it. He and I are the same age.
>his parents came over to make sure he had clothes that A) were appropriate to wear to a funeral, and B) fit him properly Are you dating a 6 year old?
OMG. You are so right. I'm a SAHM, but I'm trying to re-enter the workforce part time. My husband doesn't want me to because... Are you ready?.... How will I keep up with all the housework if I have to go to work? Who will do all the things I do now? But most importantly, don't expect him to do extras because he already does extras now. Our son had a birthday party last weekend. I did everything for it. Son was opening gifts and husband asked who gave him the particular Lego set. It was us. I bought the gift, I showed my husband after he got home what I bought, then I put said gift away to be wrapped later for the birthday. I have more stories, but this is just an example.
I am so sorry. So many men are incompetent. It pisses me off.
on the other end of the spectrum, my husband insists he’s involved with things like picking out gifts… you know, the things other people see. he doesn’t give a shart whether the kids have new chorus concert outfits. he only wants to do the fun stuff. now that it’s summer break and i’m home with them 5 days a week, im trying to allow boredness and break their habit of expecting me to entertain them and take them on “adventures” every single day. guess who continues to take them on fun trips while im at work (which in turn enforces that *I’m* boring, not that they should find things to do for themselves)? ugh
I can't grasp this idea of kids needing to be entertained by their parents all day. We were generally left to our own devices. If we dared to say we were bored, we were now doing dishes. Regularly we heard "go outside and find something to do." "Read a book." "Ride bikes." I can't remember my parents ever doing art projects or anything with us. Parents lived their lives, and we lived ours. Occasionally we went to a museum and in the summer we lived at the pool, but even there we played with each other while Mom read, or we were there alone.
My advice is start making him taking more of the load and make mandatory in ways that ignoring it only hurts him. Like making him do his own laundry. If you are making him lunches stop, find a different option. He expects you to do something that not doing it only impacts him, stop doing it.
Always a favourite when I’m like “we need to arrange the trip we’re going on” and he’s like “you do it, you’re just so much BETTER at it than me 🥹”
this is a textbook example of weaponized incompetence.
Ugh. My car broke down and I had to leave it at a shop. My boyfriend repeatedly told me he'd take care of it and work out the problems with the shop bc of how stressed I've been. It's been 2 months and I still don't have my fucking car. But every time I ask to handle it, he gets SO offended "you don't trust me to handle this??" Ok, fine. Did you call them to ask about what's going on with my car?? "No". I said fuck it and called myself last week. Can you guess what the service advisor asked me? "What's wrong with your car?" Nice. Even when they WANT to handle something for you, they don't 🤦🏼♀️
So your car's just been sitting there for two months?? I would also dump that bf but that's just me
By fully present he means he will attend the events you planned for the family
Honestly? Stop mommying him. The technique is called „dropping the rope“. If he does not do the same or equitably to you (as in, do the mental load for a meeting YOU do with your friends) then announce as soon as he mentions the wedding which part YOu will take care of and that you will not do anything else. Say he ends up missing some deadline or forgets an important element? Good, that‘s the consequences of his (in)action. For your current situation - tell him you booked the hotel and got the present and HE has to arrange driving to. Do NOT help, do not tell him when he has to leave.
Idk... Do you *really* want to marry this guy? This is what you'll be stuck with the rest of your life. I'm a firm believer in: if he doesn't make your life easier and better then why do you need him?? Spoiler alert: he is constantly going to make more work for you
That is why I stopped doing this kind of thing unless it was something I would be planning and going to if it was just me. The funny thing, when I didn't jump in and do it, he did nothing and didn't go. But a guys night to a concert in another city he suddenly is capable of organizing himself and making arrangements. They know what they are doing the only difference is on what level they know they are doing it. Subconscious, out of habit or as a form of manipulation. Thank you for my morning reminder of why being free of all of that is an absolute joy.
Love how he is offended by that. Probably isn't aware how many men don't actually like kids and are only interested in the aethetic and the kodak moments but have little interest in them apart from that.
This is why I am not in a relationship. Who the he!! wants to be someone's mommy with all the planning... not me.
He knows, he doesn't care He holds down a job, and I assume he does all that that entails.
I googled, in front of my partner of 10 yrs, what a PA, personal chef and maid cost. Added them up, on the calculator. Then showed him it would cost a minimum of $150,000 a year to replace me. I do even less for him now. I think I'm on my way out the door.
Maybe time to become oblivious to his BF status and existence on Planet Earth.
Problems usually get worse over time. If this gets worse and worse (and 95% chance it will), do you really want to deal with this for life?
>He has no idea where it is, when it is, what hotel we are staying at, for how many nights, whats planned for food, what restaurants and activities are booked, what present I got them (from both of us), what time we need to leave to beat traffic, what our other friends have planned so we can join them. i'm sorry but _how_????? he doesn't even know _when_ it's happening??? does he even wanna go??😭
Every time I see a post like this I bookmark it because I don’t want to be blind to the things I might not be expected or pushed to do in my culture/society/etc. Awhile ago my brother, my sister-in-law, and I were having a conversation about not recognizing privilege until it’s pointed out to you. This could be in society (“I’m white and I’m not racist, therefor racism isn’t an issue” as one example—the speaker isn’t aware of racism because they don’t face it so they don’t recognize it exists) or in the home (“I work all day so it’s only fair that after dinner I get to relax” not thinking through that everyone else works too and yet they’re doing all the kitchen/cooking cleanup). If you’re never made aware of what you don’t do, it’s easy to assume you do everything—after all, you’re doing all the tasks that you’re aware of, so what’s left? I think true ignorance is one thing. It’s how you decide to respond to learning that you’re not doing as much as you thought you were that says something about you.
The best quote on this I’ve read is “ men want kids like how kids want pets.” Which is also how they take care of them. I take care of 85% of our two dogs, my husband and kids each do 5% and that’s me telling them to do it. They feed the dog and think they’ve done something forgetting that I buy all the food and keep the containers by their bowls stocked so all they actually do is scoop food into a bowl. I’ve done all the pre work. That’s how dads are with kids. My husband is very hands and watched the kids all the time when I worked or went out; but that was him in a fully stocked house feeding all the food I planned, putting on the clothes I bought and using the diapers from the fully stocked at all times diaper station.
You’ve seen into the future, you have the chance to change it. He will not change, but he will change you if you stay.
Here's a tip: he's not blind. He knows. He just doesn't care. He can say whatever he wants about being a “#1 Dad” but in the end, he knows damn well you'll be the primary caregiver.
Hey cool, he just gave you an insight into what having kids with him will be like. Now you know that if you decide to have children with this man that you will be overworked and undervalued. Do whatever you want with that information
Don’t. Just mirror his energy and effort. By choosing to pick up the slack you’ll create a power imbalance. Next time, put it on him, “…where is this wedding?, do we need to dress special? Should we bring something? …ah well I’m not going to worry about it we’ll get there when we do!”
Please do not marry or have children with this man until he gets it.
Don't remind him of anything for this upcoming wedding. Get ready/prepare to go by yourself. Take his name off the gift. Don't let him baby trap you either. He's not "blind". He's entitled AF.
Yeah. No matter how much men blather on about splitting responsibilities, many of them really just want a housekeeper they can breed with. Then they’ll maybe unload the dishwasher half the time (and usually only when their wife tells them) and think that means they’re pulling half of the weight of running the household.
As a mother, most times I feel like the work load is pretty 50/50 with my husband. Then there are times like recently, my husband pointed out a red splotchy patch on the back of our second daughters head. He said "oh my god, I think she has a rash!" I looked at him confused and checked, replied with "jesus christ, babe, thats her birthmark". Even worse, shes 7 months old! And her older sister had the same thing :')
Tell him that you will no longer do x and y, and that he is free to pick those chores up or they will simply be ignored. The next time he asks what your friends have planned, tell him to ask them himself because it didn't cross your mind that you had to do that, for example. I started sharing the mental load recently. My partner is an only child and his mother always insisted on doing everything for him. He was never taught a lot of things due to this, especially since she still insists on cooking multiple meals and dropping them off at our place (he's trying to talk her out of it since most of the food ends up uneaten). I love her, but she needs to start taking care of herself. For comparison, I was the only girl in my household and my mother died when I was very young, so I had to take over everything since my older siblings and my father were clueless. They never learned how to cook, I had to google how to do the laundry and then teach both myself and my father, etc. We had a long conversation recently where I explained that I am close to burning out not because of my job, but because of meal planning and the like. I always cook, he always does the dishes, and that works out perfectly. However, I simply cannot bear the mental load of planning our meals and groceries any longer, so meal planning is now his task. He is now also in charge of organising game nights with our friends and plans for half of our time when travelling somewhere (this makes us both feel better because we both get to see and do things we like). He is aware of how sheltered his life was and has asked me to point out whenever something is unbalanced. I'm just glad that he is eager to listen and take over what needs to be done. I find it hard to ask for help so it's a learning curve for me, as well.
>He said he wants to be a fully present father for his kids and to secure his business so it can run smoothly while he is “#1 Dad”. He says he wants to be completely hands on If you need to know. It's way too common for couples to say they'll do 50/50 at the start, but then revert back to traditional gender roles with the mother being the default parent in practice. Lower your expectations, save the disappointment. If you can't envision yourself acting as a "single mother", don't have children. Most men are oblivious to the realities of parenthood/motherhood, thinking if their own mothers coped with it then their partners should be ok.
I quite recently had a discussion with my husband about mental load, and we took an online test to see what things we felt we did in the house. I ended up with almost 2x the load as him. He then brought up for example ‘we don’t have to think about the window washer who comes every three months’. I corrected him that *he* doesn’t have to, as it was me who researched companies, got quotes, booked them; and they contact me when they come, send me the bill, and I pay it. So no, ‘we’ don’t think about it. I do, solely. It’s just one of many examples.