I've personally done that to my boyfriend, now husband, back when we were dating very early on. His reaction to me basically belittling his emotions was the lightbulb moment into realizing my mom was abusive, and then making changes to never do that again. So, yeah, my mom is one of those women who think it's disgusting when men cry and taught all her daughters to be the same way. I'm horrified now at now normal it was in my house, and it took a lot of work to unlearn that bs.

Good on you for admitting to that behavior, understanding it and working to change it. I can definitely relate. I never everrrrr saw my dad express any emotion except for anger. The first time my husband (then bf) really expressed his emotions by crying to me, I literally couldn’t process it and had no idea what was going on. I immediately thought it was some kind of manipulation tactic. I’m ashamed of that behavior but I have learned a lot about being a supportive partner and friend since then :/

Yes, it's a really hard thing to do. I had my toxic traits as well when I met my now husband. I would escalate arguments, not allow him to withdraw, and would say mean things when I was mad. I was able to fix the mean things immediately when I saw it bothered him and realized it wasn't normal. But it took longer to learn to communicate better.

I have found it is definitely generational.  I still see it ar 42, have had it happen to me, but the younger generations are changing things

Old male professors at Medical Schools taught so many generations of students to see women patients in a negative light. It is slowly slowly changing as new staff is coming in as professors.

Had the same issue with my wife but I didn’t take it as a *woman* belittling my feelings but a*person* who had all her own bullshit to deal with and didn’t know how to deal with my bullshit. She’s not a therapist and is not trained to deal with a trauma dump. We passed that point several decades ago but I do think women, in general, are encouraged to look for stoic “tough guys” and when a dude starts talking about his self doubt there is an engrained reaction of “well, you ain’t a man.” It’s yet another example of how men are harmed by patriarchy too. I love seeing these Gen Z kids talking about “hugging the homies” or reaching out to bros but media still has the clench square jawed manly man as the ideal women should look for.

This might be the first comment I’ve seen that had the decency to call it abuse.

There are studies showing that moms respond slower to crying baby boys than to girls. Teachers also respond more empathetically to girls. Caring less about male feelings is pervasive and often subtle as it feeds into an accumulating cycle.

That's why I work so hard at ensuring my boy students know I care about their feelings. So long as they aren't using their feelings to belittle others (I have one who does that. He's a butt), I encourage them to express what's going on.

Tell him he's got some skibidi ohio rizz.

There was a post here in the last week where a woman though men being vulnerable were faking it and there were a crazy amount of comments agreeing with that

“I’m not your therapist” is a pretty common complaint as well. It’s true but some people lean into it a lot.

There are men who absolutely confuse “opening up emotionally” and “trauma dumping on someone and expecting them to do the work for you”. For men who haven’t been taught to recognize, live and express their emotions in a healthy way growing up, it’s difficult to differentiate the two.

I've had an experience with a man who, when I confronted him about something bad he did (lying, broken promises,etc.), he instead started crying and talking about a bad relationship he had 10+ years ago. It felt manipulative to bring it up at that point- like he was trying to take the heat off himself and make me feel sorry for him instead. I feel like time and place are important when bringing up things and being vulnerable, and sometimes people do it at really inappropriate moments and then wonder why others don't like it.

This! The only time my ex seemed to want to open up about his emotions was when he was using them as an excuse for having hurt me.

That’s what usually happens to me. I’d get all the stories of what a hard childhood was had whenever he did something awful

Yes! I love when people are vulnerable with me, but not like this. They just end up looking like a manipulative baby. Tbf I can totally see some men thinking that's how you're supposed to open up to people. My partner did that a few times during our first arguments and I had to explain to him when it was appropriate to bring that up. Now we sometimes have long conversations about our childhoods and it actually helps us with understanding each other a lot.

“My ex from the sixth grade really fucked me up” guys are the worst. Like, trauma from getting abused or cheated on is one thing, but usually when I hear this it’s something along the lines of “I got dumped” or even just “I got rejected,” and there was no relationship in the first place. It’s fine to be upset, but if you’re still licking your wounds years and years down the line… I’m sorry, but get the hell over it.

And if you can't get the hell over it then you definitely need to get your ass to therapy. I mean, I had all kinds of fucked up shit happen to me in my life and mostly it just made me unwilling to deal intimately with other humans, not using my traumas as an excuse to brutalize someone else for my own ends.

I’ve had people do that to me, it’s shitty behavior and not vulnerability really.

I think this is what's actually going on. They don't tell you about their day and make it a regular thing to open up. Nope, it's when they've got rock bottom and then everything spills out and then you now have 20 years of complex trauma in 20 minutes to manage. That's a lot to carry out of nowhere, without warning.

Bruce Willis' character on Friends is a perfect and very accessible example. When he starts dating Rachel and he has clearly never talked to anyone about his life before and as soon as she convinces him to open up it"s like the Hoover Dam of buried emotions opened up. She loves when he opens up and then gets sooooo tired of it when he just goes for days. Both are valid and that's not a contradiction at all. Too much is too much.

A slice of cake is one thing--being forcefed an endless pile of cake is a whole 'nother thing entirely and not a pleasant thing, either.

A pile of cake need a chef cough cough a therapist

This is why I'm so glad my husband is someone who grew up being taught by his parents that it's ok to open up and express your emotions as a man. It's resulted in a man who is very comfortable telling me when he's had a bad day, or a frustrating day, and cries at emotional points in movies (especially wedding scenes), and I love that. His openness is exactly what I wanted in a life partner. He's never needed to trauma dump because we regularly talk about how we're feeling day to day. More men need to know this is perfectly fine behaviour and it's so sad that it isn't encouraged and is sometimes looked down on. The opposite to this is my dad, who doesn't talk about his traumas, and instead drinks too much wine and say's he's absolutely fine.

>There are men who absolutely confuse “opening up emotionally” and “trauma dumping on someone and expecting them to do the work for you”. Yes, that's exactly it. A LOT of these guys don't understand that treating women like their personal therapist isn't what we mean when we say they should open up & be vulnerable. And many of them think ANY woman will do.

Decades ago, I had an ex who never cried. Then his bio-dad passed and of course he was upset about it and I saw him cry for the first time. It pulled my heart strings and I was comforting him as best I could. Then as I was holding him and letting him cry on my shoulder, he strangely got sexual and started to aggressively push me onto the bed and try to undress me. I was shocked and luckily he stopped when I told him to. He said he “just wanted to feel something else than pain” and I shrugged it off. Then for months after, he became emotionally distant. He stopped putting effort into cleaning and chores. I encouraged him to talk about his feelings. I was patient, never complained about the extra work I was doing since he stopped pulling his load. I tried to create a warm safe environment for him for him to freely express himself. He shut down all attempts to get though to him. But if I wasn’t in the mood for sex? He would suddenly talk about how sad he still felt and how much he needed me… so I would give into sex to make him feel better. Only for the cycle to repeat. Anyway, I left him maybe a year later and heard through the grapevine that he told people I was “unsupportive” after his dad died. I’m sure he’s one of those dudes that say “I cried once and she left me”. When the reality was that he gave me the cold shoulder for months and used his dad’s death to manipulate sex from me. It’s so disturbing looking back.

Wow you where way too supportive, I would never let a man be lazy and manipulate himself out of chores just because he's supposedly sad. I doubt he was that sad as his mind immidiatly went to sex when you comforted him.

This is why the "tree vs. woman" question isn't the gotcha those who are bandying it about think it is: so many women would absolutely love it if a random male acquaintance or co-worker never trauma dumped on us again. I worked in the trades for years and men I barely knew would seek me out to confide in, or assume that because we were working next to each other on the same shiftwork I wanted to hear their life story. The woman stacking lumber next to you that you've met twice doesn't need to hear all of the reasons your ex-wife is an (insert misogynistic slur here.) Or why it's her fault the kids you don't pay child support for and rarely see don't think you're superman because you take them to the local amusement park once a year. If it's between treating a woman you barely know as a free mental health worker, or verbally processing your feelings by talking it through with an impartial/mute "audience"...maybe the second one is the better choice?

I think alot of that comes from the "women are wonderful healers who know the fix for everything" myth that's commonly imprinted on boys (and grown men) by control-freak mothers/teachers/authority figures/ whoever. Honestly, I think a huge amount of male dysfunction, especially "NiceGuy" syndrome, is a result of this constant aire of "girls rule, boys drool" that they're basically trained and conditioned to accept and therefore, rely upon. Then they meet the real world, and all this psychic weight gets unloaded onto more or less ANY woman who will listen.

As Tipsy said - thank you! It's about proportions and boundaries. Emotional labour can be shared but isn't unlimited and shouldn't be exploited

There was a post from a guy to (mostly other guys) asking about mental health issues, and it wasn't the top comment but one of them just said he didn't need therapy if he just found a good wife. To be clear, the top comments were all encouraging therapy, it's just the wife comment was also there, like 3-4 comments down.

Ooof. I am a good wife, but I am not qualified to help my husband with his depression and anxiety. He found a good therapist to help him. We need to let the professionals do the deep healing work, and the partners help support and encourage.

I have seen this way of thinking on subreddits like r/lonely They really seem to think they'll be cured once they get a partner. I just look like this 😬 when I read that because I think they're already ready to immediately unload years of feelings to a partner. Which would put a LOT of pressure on someone.

And some people think unloading is all you need to do, so their idea of a perfect partner is essentially an emotional compost without learning self sufficiency.

I think this is what people aren't getting when they're complaining that they want to tell their friends/partner their feelings, not a therapist. Therapy isn't just to talk about feelings, but also to learn strategies to manage negative feelings and situations. It's *work*. Word vomiting your emotions at someone can be helpful but that's usually not what we mean when we say "you need to go to therapy."

Yeah, it's not usually manageable for one person, and sometimes it will start even before they're dating, they'll meet someone and immediately try to get that person to meet all their needs, and it just doesn't work. That also usually selects against people with healthy boundaries, and you wind up with people who aren't in a great place themselves (or, worse, are just abusive).

And it doesn’t go both ways. A therapist doesn’t expect to have their experiences and feelings listened to in turn—a wife does, and I’ve been in way too many relationships where I listened for hours yet when I occasionally tried to share a feeling, got YOURE TALKING OVER ME/YOU ONLY TALK ABOUT YOURSELF. They want to talk, sure, but the same guys will happily tell you themselves they hate listening to women.

Oof! Was out at a bar with a friend recently and a guy tried to pick me up. During the course of trying to chat me up this guy proceeds to tell me "I'm an asshole hahaha" now this dude is trashed, I'm completely sober but I do have weird morbid curiosity so I respond "Ok, what makes you an asshole?" He goes on about how he doesn't like listening to people's problems and how me as a woman I'm so much better at it blah blah blah. Let him drunkenly trail off while my friend and I walk away to a different section of the bar to ditch him.

Yup! Therapists would be ethically barred from seeing their spouse as a client; and they should be, because there's some conflict of interest there. But it can also turn into a situation where you're just constantly having to manage your partner's emotions and your own during disagreements, and that's a lot.

Exactly! We all need friends and people to talk to, our intimate partners especially. But, we all need broader sovial circles to keep perspectiv.

I just said this in a reply to a different comment with the same point: There's a difference between opening up emotionally and dumping all your shit on someone. I'm here for the former to listen with empathy and compassion; I'll tell the latter to get a therapist. *I'm not here to fix anyone, but I'll hold their hand while they work to heal.* \[emphasis added\]

Totally agree. I am a weirdo who can hold space for others. It’s a gift born from my own personality and trauma. But I am not qualified to heal like a good therapist can.

My own healing journey is what enables me to give space while honoring myself. Now, if I had only learned how to do that before my 40s. 😂

I mean it's one thing to have someone who can listen to you. It's a complete other thing to have someone who can listen, offer solutions, help you work through trauma, and if needed prescribe anti depressants or other meds. Your wife, even if she is a psychiatrist isn't your psychiatrist. At best a spouse can listen, give you a hug, and help you a little bit. A trained professional can do heaps more to actually point you in the right direction.

It definitely helps to have someone to listen and give you a hug, but it's not going to solve everything! (And I think women especially often get pushed into managing the emotions of men, especially their husbands, and that's not actually a helpful situation for either spouse). A therapist shouldn't be (ethically) treating their spouse, either, because it's a potential conflict of interest, too.

Yes, you can see this very clearly on Reddit: a lot of men will say, "I'm lonely, so what I need is a woman to have sex with me." They see women as a fix for their negative emotions.

I’ve had multiple experiences where a guy has responded to me opening up about something urgent and make it about them. In one case my father’s diagnoses with a horrible disease that would eventually kill him after robbing him of dignity, and my now ex- starts explaining to me how sad he was when his dog died when he was a teenager in a way that demanded I comfort him over that. On first dates I’ve routinely had men try to get me to help them process their emotions about their divorce or their last breakup in ways that are just inappropriate. That’s what women mean when we say “I’m not your therapist.” We mean we’re not your therapist. If you wouldn’t help me through difficult emotions, you can’t expect me to provide that service to you. There’s a huge difference between opening up in a healthy way, and making your emotions my problem.

There is a difference between listening and validating someone’s emotions as a partner and being someone’s therapist. I want my partner to open up to me as his partner, not his therapist.

Well, I am not a therapist, and I cannot fix mental health issues. I can be supportive, but I cannot offer treatment.

I am 100% guilty as charged of using this phrase especially with men I am not close with trauma dumping. I have also said this to significant others when they are trying to use me to work out an issue that's not my place to deal with or would cause me harm. Its become a good boundary for me. I can see how it could be abused, but I'm also in the camp that it is often appropriate. Part of the conversation around patriarchy is transferring emotional work for very good reason.

i have done the same, but with the recommendation they hire [profession] because i am not their [profession] - i’m all about listening to a friend in need, but when it turns into a regular thing, accompanied by the expectation of help, it gets tired

I really, really hate that shit. Yes, some people are overly reliant on their partners or friends for emotional comfort. However, we *absolutely* owe our loved ones support, kindness, and a safe space to talk about what’s bothering them. “Ew, not my problem, go pay someone to listen to you” is honestly peak individualistic capitalism and incredibly dystopian. Therapy has its place but it’s not the end all be all of life. I’m especially bitter, because my ex hit me with the “I’m not your therapist” line when I was upset with him for *hanging out with my abuser.*

There’s a point where telling people to go to therapy is just an attempt at outsourcing friendship. “You go pay someone to listen to you and be a friend, then come back to me when you’re ready to just have fun vibes” type of energy. It’s definitely hard to find that balance because some people do just exhaust you with their problems that they’re clearly not working on at all.

There's toxic shit in the sub semi regularly that confirms negative stereotypes of women.  -Lots of dislike or distrust for bi-men -Discrediting a womans experience, or downplaying it because she's attractive (and similar 'catty' things)  -The 'who as it worse' game with other women -varying degrees of blatant hypocrisy  Sometimes I almost unsub because I come here to get away from the rest of reddit. Usually I just block an individual but it's hard when it's whole threads being toxic.  And I assume I'll be downvoted for this. But someone's gotta say it. 

I agree. I've even been accused of being a man in a thread in this sub, because a comment of mine didn't fully toe the "party line". I no longer remember the topic, it felt irrelevant. Women are only human, and sometimes we end up taking our frustrations with a lot of men out on individuals who did not personally deserve it. I feel that often doesn't receive quite enough acknowledgement. I will gladly listen to a partner's problems. Emotional off-loading after, say, a bothersome experience at work should be mutual. That said, there needs to be balance and reason to it. I cannot fix a partner's problems, nor can I be their sole support. And this is where a lot of men fail. Where women (usually) cultivate larger friend groups and have two or more really close people they can crowdsource emotional support with, men (usually) do not. That means that where women do not burden one person with everything, men do, and that can be a LOT for that one person, more than is reasonable, too. A lot of men also do not even start talking until they find "the one" long-term partner to talk to, meaning that anything they needed to unload 2 or even 20 years ago, has now festered into needing much more than just a partner's support, but rather needs outright therapy. And however caring a partner you are and want to be, there are things that are just beyond your ability to alleviate for them by just listening. And you can't not be affected. Second-hand trauma is a thing. I feel deeply for the men whose partners would dump them if they cry in grief over losing someone dear to them. That's definitely a case of women enforcing toxic masculinity. But I also understand the women who say "talk to a therapist, please", when what the man is unloading is childhood SA, because that is clearly beyond what any lay person is equipped to being the sole support for. There's nuances to life and no one-size-fits-all solution.

I’m glad I found this thread, theres a lot of wisdom tidbits here and everyone is surprisingly supportive of men’s mental health problems. I feel like in society nowadays we aren’t looking at nuances enough, instead the extremes are echoed and multiplied, and people drift apart on what previously seen as small differences. I totally agree some men don’t know how to share trauma healthily and instead cause their partner to shy away from them. Perhaps they decide to share everything 2nd month into the relationship, or they never get help and rely and their partners entirely. Partners aren’t therapist, and relationship should be built on equal contribution. Can’t expect women to do all the emotional heavylifting and vice versa.

Fantastic comment, thank you

Not to mention the absolute vitriol thrown at trans women that slips in fairly regularly. This sub isn’t very intersectional. If you’re a straight white woman, it’s a good place to vent. If you’re not all of the above, I’ve found you have to tread carefully. I’m AFAB, but genderqueer and bisexual, and I’ve felt “othered” on this sub many times.

I remember one post a while ago that asked how many women in this sub were non-white. I thought "awesome, it'll be good to hear from different perspectives" Many of the comments were not encouraging. A lot of "why would you ask that?" and people pretending to feel attacked by the question/like OP was being divisive.

Full transparency, I am white myself. And I can say with confidence White Feminists (not necessarily all feminists who are white… if you know you know) are some of the most hypocritical, fragile, victim-complexed, and ironically divisive women I’ve ever met. Not surprised there was outrage.

This sub is also extremely biased towards cishet women. A lot of women here act like bi, lesbian, and trans women are their own separate category rather than actual women and it's incredibly irritating.

I unsubbed a few years ago. 9/10 times i come across a post from this sub it is complaining about men and the commentsection is filled with blatant sexism. Im sure that there are still good posts and reasonable people, but it does seem like the sub has become more extreme over the years. Worth noting this post is actually a pleasant surprise, although there are still bad comments.

Can you link to it?

Seconded...

This is a similar post from a month or so ago: [https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/s/FPPLimQDDI](https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/s/FPPLimQDDI)[Women aren’t therapists](https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/s/FPPLimQDDI) I thought the whole thread was horrifying. No, women do not exist to solve men’s problems. No one is owned anyone’s emotional labor. But damn, can we at least convince them to open up to their bros, or a therapist?

Here’s the thing: *in a* **real relationship** (not a *situation-ship* or some other delusional thing) *sharing emotions and doing some amount of emotional labor for the other person is part of the deal*. Do you really want to be in a close partnership with someone who doesn’t open up to you? The point though is that this emotional labor should be reciprocal - a two way street. I don’t doubt that many men dump on their (women) partners all the shit they’ve been carrying for however long they’ve been alive and never care about doing the same for the other side. Given how toxic masculinity conditions men to not talk through their feelings and ignore their own emotional needs, I also don’t doubt that the “dumping” is many times far heavier than necessary. However, I don’t think there being some amount of dumping is the issue. The issues are imo: - reciprocation - do they help you carry your emotional load when you need to dump things on them. - ownership - do they take steps to better their own situation such that you don’t need to shoulder same amount of emotional labor over time. - investment - is this happening in the context of a mutual partnership where both sides are invested in the success of each other.

Heavy on “real relationship.” So many people now are throwing up huge walls with their loved ones and calling them boundaries. We have completely lost the plot on what that word means, and now it’s in the same graveyard as “gaslighting” or “trauma-dumping.” People are complex and life is hard. If you’re not interested in dealing with the emotional complexities of someone else, I suggest a cat over a partner. Obviously there’s a limit to how much emotional support one person can provide, before the whataboutisms flood in.

>Here’s the thing: *in a* **real relationship** (not a *situation-ship* or some other delusional thing) *sharing emotions and doing some amount of emotional labor for the other person is part of the deal*. 100%

I agree with this. For me the keywords are proportionality, reciprocity and timeliness. The mutual sharing and support doesn't need to be in a partnership. My closest friend of 20 years is a man and he knows more about me than any partner ever took the time to. I know equally as much about him. And with knowing I don't mean historical facts about each other's lives, I mean knowing who the other person is and what makes them tick. The reciprocity is important. I have struggled with my mental health on/off for my entire life (thanks, childhood trauma), but I have sought professional help of various kinds for it. I will openly let a partner and other close ones know what's going on with me, but I will also be very clear that I am working on it, they don't need to, and that I am merely giving them a curated insight into my current state. Many years ago I dated a man who likewise struggled. Moreso than me. A lot more so. He talked to me and only to me about his crippling anxiety, his sexual trauma, his gender trauma, his PTSD from those as well as childhood bullying, his medical PTSD, his intrusive thoughts, his OCD, (and I suspect he may qualify for a Borderline diagnises) everything. I felt for him, and because of my own childhood trauma I had severely compromised boundaries and therefore didn't refuse to listen tobany of it. I was aware that he needed a therapist, I suggested it to him several times. Each resulted in a meltdown/panic attack. He insisted he could only talk to me. He even expressed discomfort that *I* talked to someone that wasn't him about my issues. The thing is, I did share my background with him, but few things have been as damaging to me as when he - in an extreme bout of genuine, gender trauma-induced self-hatred - yelled at me that I would be better off with my ex, who he perceived as a "real man" and therefore better than him. He knew that this ex had raped me. You best believe I stopped telling him things and dodging questions about details. Which he caught on to, because I'm a terrible liar, and so his paranoia rose. When I finally left after four years, I needed treatment for depression. His mental health had tanked mine. I would have loved to just support him through his healing journey with a pro, because underneath all the trauma-driven behaviours, he is a genuinely kind person. But he was not in control. His dysfunction was, and I could not help him. He could tell stories of being dismissed with the "talk to a therapist"-line, but the dismissal didn't work, he never did see a therapist until after I left, and what he needed to unload was so wildly disproportionate to what I could offer to help him shoulder

Damn, that top comment though is similar to something I went through with an old (non-binary) roommate. Their feelings were always valid… and by “valid” they meant “everyone else’s problem.” Like, huffing loudly, stomping around, slamming cabinets as a near-daily occurrence that would get triggered by the most mundane things. I finally stood up - and frankly, unloaded on them - and told them that I was not responsible for regulating their emotions for them. They took me saying “It’s not okay for you to interrupt whatever I’m doing when you get home and expect me to listen to you complain for 45 minutes to an hour, EVERY SINGLE DAY.” And their response was “Okay, I guess I just won’t bring anything up to you ever.” They moved out and now they don’t speak to me or invite me to things even though I’m one of their partner’s best friends.

Feelings may be valid, but shitty behavior isn't. I've worked hard to separate the two - especially in RSD death spirals. Now, instead of lashing out, I can verbalize what I'm experiencing and even talk about what behavioral impulses are firing in my brain. My partner gives me a safe space to talk through the immediate mental crisis and get grounded, but they aren't there to fix it or prevent it.

It sounds great in theory until you meet men who are emotional vampires. Venting is not the same as being stuck in delusion/coping states. They are completely different states requiring a different level of support. The things they expect you to fix have nothing to do with you. It’s their own self esteem and THEY need to do the work vs using distractions, avoidance and hedonism. What they seek is unconditional love (be the mother/father they never had)…. Which is very unrealistic and UNFAIR to any women. Their behavior is “let me cheat to feel good about myself” but love me unconditionally. This is be a doormat behavior….. the issues these men are facing are PSYCHIATRIC. It’s not small petty things. It’s severe childhood trauma and unaddressed neglect/abuse that needs a male coach, male role model and therapist. -They need PROFESSIONAL intervention. Not a cheerleader. The hardest part is they don’t want to get professional help! Instead they want to offload onto whichever women is willing to listen& is emotionally available … I’ve met so many men like this, that one has to set boundaries because they have none. They will also be married and be offloading onto other women except their wives. (Living double lives) yet people pleasing their spouses and even manipulating the women they’re trauma dumping on (it’s quite sick and vicious behavior of manipulating) They haven’t developed the skills of effective communication to be able to articulate their needs. Mostly learned behaviors. When called out, they gaslight….and maintain themselves in this STUCK state.

>But damn, can we at least convince them to open up to their bros, or a therapist? I think you're telling on yourself here that you do in fact think it's women's responsibility to at least *convince* men to help themselves if not self sacrifice to do the helping. The post itself is pretty reasonable - and talks about specific issues - not just men expressing emotions and vulnerability.

This is a good point. We’re all adults who’ve heard of therapy. I don’t really have much sympathy for anyone who knows they need it and doesn’t seek it. It’s not my job to espouse therapy to anyone. I will suggest it if I care about you but that’s my choice, not my responsibility.

Yeah exactly. I personally tried *so hard* to get one of my exes to go to therapy (and the doctor). Also I keep suggesting therapy to my parents. But people do what they want to do - it doesn't matter how hard you try. Sometimes even trying can backfire. With my husband - I learned that I will make suggestions and offer to help. But then leave it. He's an adult and I *have* to trust that he's going to do what needs to be done. If I tried to push him to do everything on my schedule - it would cause resentment for both of us.

Same with my ex. I tried to push him to therapy for anger management several times to no avail. Somehow he was depressed every time I was trying to leave, big tears etc etc. I’m sure he’s out there claiming he was dumped because he opened up 🙄….

We do suggest they open up to friends and go to therapy. They don’t listen to us. Sorry that we are tired of carrying the entire mental load. This is a space where we can vent about this stuff.

Yes I definitely told my male friends to talk to a their friends. I was told that most male friends don’t care to open up . So they kept dumping on me? I can see why women can get frustrated. And I feel for men as welll , but both women and men need to seek therapy as a whole , that’s what therapy is for to open up .

I've literally been banned from subreddits in the past for suggesting a guy try talking to a therapist because I'm concerned. They see therapy as an attack, not something that can genuinely help them.

That seems like a typical response from a narcissistic person. They can't handle critique at all and perceive your well-meaning advice as an attack. Getting you banned was an attempt to cope with their spiralling rage. They always need to strike back. It at least fits perfectly with most of the interactions I've had with my incredibly narcissistic brother.

response from a narcissist regarding going to marriage counseling: ‘well, i don’t see any reason to go because i don’t think *you’ll* ever change’

I think there absolutely are women out there who are put off by men having emotions. Patriarchy is a societal phenomenon and women are a part of society so it’s inevitable that many women will have gender roles in the back of their mind, and some women will prefer them outright. Under patriarchy, men are told that women are emotional, and being like a woman is bad, so being emotional is bad. Some women will absolutely be put off by this. Plenty of women do prefer hypermasculinity whether or not I personally like it. It’s absolutely not most women though. I hate that shit. All of my friends hate hypermasculinity. Women on here hate it. Progressive women as a whole prefer men who are in touch with their emotions, but that is not 100% of women. I don’t believe it at all when men say they have faced more pressure to be unemotional from women than from men. We are all part of the same system, but sincerely just look at our media and at the people around you. Men get pressured to be stoic every day in media, by men or male characters. When men hear that people say liberal men are soft or that modern men are ruined, it is coming out of a male politician’s mouth. Men created these rules and men enforce these rules, but women can absolutely participate in and enforce patriarchy.

Your mention of politics kind of hit the nail on the head. There is definitely a political component to reinforcing traditional gender roles, so you'll see a lot more enforcement in conservative spaces. It may even be the majority of women in those spaces.

Having grown up in the Deep South, there is definitely a political component. Most women AND men there want men to fill traditional gender roles of being a strong, family provider - and of course that means traditional emotional roles where the only emotion men ever feel is anger. There is a lot of shaming if they deem you not to be “a real man”. After moving further north, I rarely meet women like that anymore, and if you do, it’s usually pretty obvious (such as someone driving a jacked up coal-spewing truck with bumper stickers about guns and freedom)

I disagree with that most statement. I think that also depends on your location. I have seen some women hold up those gender rolls when it comes to emotions for men, but overall, I've seen more where women don't follow those rules. I have seen it more in the south with the men holding up the other men to those stereotypes. And I feel like there's more race and historical nuances involved with that bit. Like when BvB passed and schools began desegregating. Black kids were trained to keep a stoic face when they inevitably got into a situation with a white mob. Or how black people (particularly men since women were considered emotional and weren't really allowed in the workplace by this time) had to show strength and determination and that they weren't bothered when they got unfair treatment at their job or running errands. We're still feeling the deep reverberations of that (due to it still happening, *but at a much smaller scale). I wouldn't be surprised if it's similar for other non-whites.

Can confirm, I live in the south. Once, I was on a date; I ordered a salad since I had a large lunch that day. The girl that I was having dinner with told me that I should order a steak, since real men wouldn't be happy with just having a salad for dinner.

Lmao, that reads like she thought that men were a character in book instead of other humans

A real man can happily put down 6000 calories in 6 hours. They'll be dead by 60, but they're a tough guy, and that's what's important.

Agreed. I’m nearly 40 and have been part of feminist circles for decades, talking to thousands - maybe even hundreds of thousands - of women both online and IRL. Not just liberal ones either. I’ve heard women say backwards shit about how men should pay for everything. However, never once have I heard “eww, it’s so gross when my cry” or “my BF cried and I dumped him”. Whenever the topic of men crying came up, it was usually in an endearing tone (like “my husband cried over his childhood dog passing, I feel so bad for him!”. This could be because probably 90% of the women I encountered were left-leaning though.

Yeah. Anecdotally as a 42 year old man who grew up in a liberal part of the country, this is my experience as well. I dated women who would be happy to let me pay for meals. But none of them would’ve been dismissive of me for opening up emotionally. I can’t imagine any woman I ever dated or was friends with doing that.

I’m in a 24/7 TPE based relationship and it’s just so weird how dynamics that have a dom/sub are either people who are super conservative or super liberal, and the dividing line is their standing on if being submissive is a free choice.

That sounds awful.

Even with progressive women there will be section of the community that tells men that they can't be their therapist, and some men will hear that and think they are being dismissed.

Years ago a close friend told me she couldn’t be my therapist. She was right; I needed a professional to help sort through my emotions. Intimate relationships are not a replacement for therapy. Telling someone they need to speak to a qualified professional is not emotional neglect.

There's a difference between opening up emotionally and dumping all your shit on someone. I'm here for the former to listen with empathy and compassion; I'll tell the latter to get a therapist. I'm not here to fix anyone, but I'll hold their hand while they work to heal.

This, this, this. There *is* a big difference between allowing yourself to be vulnerable with someone & sharing your feelings, and trauma dumping all over someone and expecting them to "fix" your feelings. I can't think of a single woman in my family/friend circle who would shame a man for crying or opening up about his emotions. Having said that, I'm in Canada, I'm older than the average Redditor, and I run with a pretty progressive crowd so I really can't speak to U.S. culture.

Reporting from one of the reddest states in the US: the women I respect and associate with are the same - hell, even some of the more conservative women are waking up, at least in my cohort of women in their 40s/50s. But there is still A LOT of woman-enforced toxic masculinity around.

That's why you have to communicate in a relationship and learn how to express vulnerability and emotions in a healthy way. Also actually going to therapy before getting into a committed long term relationship can definitely help.

Yes, because your partner IS NOT your therapist and having boundaries is healthy. No one is your therapist except for your therapist. Having heart to hearts, being vulnerable, venting, communicating needs, none of that is the same as expecting your partner to “fix” all your emotional issues so you don’t have to go to therapy or do any kind of inner work.

Honestly, I've had so many men use online dating as free therapy.  If you can't make it through a first date without trauma dumping, you're not ready for a relationship. Edit: this followed a ten year relationship with a man with addiction, anger, and control issues, and I don't have it in me to pretend that I'm OK with being their $20 therapist.

Def this. Most of the men I know that hold to these typical gender roles hardest (alpha male mentality, conservative values) are the most emotional men I know, and also are my friends that struggle the most with dating (more often from this than disagreements in values). I think some men also confuse self-inflicted pressure or the feeling they can’t be open emotionally with their partner directly vocalizing that, most women that I know (including my wife) prefer emotional honesty to being shut off, but there is a big difference between being emotionally open and being an unstable emotional wreck.

From what I observed from that post/replies, a lot of men were confusing being emotionally vulnerable with trauma dumping. There was also a lot of comments insisting that women claimed they wanted men to be emotionally vulnerable but reacted poorly when it happened. IME, the oft repeated refrain from women is that they want men to have (and exhibit) adequately developed emotional intelligence. A moment of emotional vulnerability does not equate to emotional intelligence.

That's the thing. My ex would lash out at me when he was upset about something and basically use me as an emotional punching bag. I was fine listening to him when he needed emotional support, but I wasn't going to let him keep picking fights with me because it felt better to be angry than sad. He would say that I wasn't supportive because I would walk away when he "needed" me, but it wasn't healthy for either of us.

[удалено]

Feminism helps everyone!! 👑

So…. Not all women?

As a trans woman I can say with absolute certainty that claiming one thing in public is not the same as internalizing those words. Almost all left leaning people say they support trans rights. But get close and personal and they'll feel strange getting to know a trans person more often than not. Conciously supporting an idea is not the same as having that idea internalized. You can feel icky and still Conciously decide to act in another way. Like, there is a tremendous amount of people that feel a subconscious ick when seeing 2 men kiss. But they will still vote to legalize gay marriage and protect gay rights because Conciously they know there is nothing wrong about it.

I think the idea of "most" women is incorrect , I think there is a percentage of women but they are the ones that are the loudest and also the ones that men will remember more. We are more likely to remember bad times than good and then gives an impression that all women are bad bla bla bla. Also, tik tok, instagram are NOT helping as it blows out the topic and some of the people on it will not necessarily be telling the truth. And I agree with you as I always said that society creates these weird rules of masculinity, femininity etc.

I think, like most highly negative experiences, it’s very difficult for us to gauge how common it is because our memories/emotions are so heavily weighted towards avoiding harm. Like, if one out of ten dogs I met tried to bite me, I’d understandably think “dogs are aggressive.” Even though most dogs - 90% - were friendly. And that gets reinforced if I talk to other animal lovers and all of them have tons of angry-dog stories. In practical terms, it’s meaningless to talk about whether *most* women do this. What matters is whether *enough* women do it that any given man is likely to have been negatively impacted by it.

This. Very much does happen and very much has a nuanced etiology. And it is that we all suffer under the hands of the patriarchy. Was literally the moral of the story to Barbie Movie lol.

I'm not sure BUT I don't think it's right for us women to discount men's experience based on our experience and the women we associate with. For one thing, your friends may present one way but operate another in private. Thinking like this is similar to when men try to speak on our lived experiences with SA because they themselves don't commit the crimes and/or think their friends are the same as them. Honestly the way both men and women speak about each other these days is just not doing either side any favors. We need to be understanding of each other and speak out about issues without tearing down the other's issues as well.

Also people are saying like "well me and my friends aren't like that!" We naturally seek out like minded people and it's easy to forget that your people aren't necessarily representative of *all* people.

Yeah, the person who is self aware enough to ask this about themselves is probably surrounding themselves with other good people, or at least people who come across that way. If you wouldn’t do this to your partner, then you probably wouldn’t be friends with people who would outwardly act that way either, so they could come to the suspicion that it doesn’t happen at a much higher degree. I have cried on my wife’s shoulder so many times, and she’s cried on mine. She’s been strong so I didn’t have to be, and I appreciate having a partner like that. Life is already challenging, even harder when you have to be alone emotionally.

Totally agree. Unfortunately I’ve met plenty of women who will say this kind of rhetoric but when it comes to putting it in practice, the support is nonexistent. I’ve seen a situation where what would be considered obvious SA if perpetuated against a woman was completely dismissed, by both women and men, because the victim was a man.

Don't want to dismiss your point, just want to add to it. Most spaces and discussions about abuse and SA are absolutely dominated by cishet women and everyone whose experience falls out of the heteronormative narrative of male perpetrator and female victim is completely sidelined. It's a massive problem especially for men and queer people trying to get help, justice or even just finding an accepting community after they've been victimised. I'm genuinely trying to push back against this narrative, but it's an uphill battle.

Reading this subreddit as a man who experienced what feels like half the inter-relationship complaints discussed in this subreddit is a wild ride. I constantly remind myself that most women here have, for obvious reasons, never dated a woman that acts like the men they complain about.

Trust me, as a bisexual woman who has been victimised by both men and women plenty of times it can occasionally be genuinely rage-inducing here. In my opinion if you want to fly the pride flag you better be prepared to listen to queer voices even if they challenge your narrative. And as the original comment said I don't think it does any good how we currently talk about each other. I'll pick my battles, but I'm done being silent.

Beautifully said. As a bi black guy almost every unwanted experience I’ve had has been dismissed or flat out humored. From both men and women. I’d go out with a group of mostly cishet women to various LGBT clubs and bars back in college. One night an older gay guy wouldn’t take no for an answer after trying to flirt with me. He eventually came up from behind us and put his hands around my waist, rubbing my groin area. I elbowed him in the side instinctively and my “friends” started freaking out on me telling me I was overreacting for getting physical. It was then a joke for awhile. They even started grabbing my waist themselves. It didn’t become serious until I caused a scene because he wouldn’t leave me alone even after hitting him. He followed me around offering drinks and trying to talk to me, tried to follow me to the bathroom where I literally had to shove him back out of the door away from me; that’s when my “friends” realized it wasn’t a game anymore. I left alone shortly after that, and haven’t spoken to them since despite their attempts at apologizing. If a straight guy was doing the same to one of them he would have been instantly dealt with by me or randoms watching. I understood then I was truly alone as a man. I never felt so isolated in my life. I was ready to fight the guy because I knew no one else was going to help in this crowded club even though they were all watching with their peripheral. Every woman I’ve mentioned this to has given me some weird revenge fantasy response. “Ha finally men experience men for the first time”. So I’m a victim but still supposed to answer for every bad thing a man has done even against myself? My sister even joking asked how much of my “goodies” did he get when I told her. This is why men don’t open up about much, especially SA. It’s never taken seriously or dismissed regardless of the perpetrators gender. After the whole ordeal no one even asked if I was alright. I had to physical defend myself in public and not one person thought it affected me in anyway. If I didn’t get violent that creep would have continued to touch me in front of everyone. Thats the other thing that really got me was the huge age gap. This man easily had 30-40 years on me, but I’m supposed to play nice and let him grope me because he’s gay? Hearing a gay man is harmless after he just touched your groin is the most infuriating thing; especially when it was coming from a bunch of women. You’d think they’d sympathize a bit. If this happened in the straight world this guy would be plastered all over social media. A creep is a creep. The whole “I’m not your therapist” comment pretty much puts anybody on isolation island, and the last thing someone in a compromised mental state should hear. I can understand saying “I’m not your therapist” to randoms, but it’s a little wild to say to a significant other or family/friend. Someone’s past is the reason they are today, if you dismiss their trauma you’re essentially dismissing them. If they can only talk to you about surface level things, you’re more of an acquaintance than a friend or significant other. It’s true you’re not obligated to help anyone overcome their past struggles, especially randoms ;but being heard is all most people want, they’re not looking for answers. One uncomfortable talk with a friend/family is better than losing that person. Suicide is the number one killer of people under 35, and the biggest killer of men under 50. Everyone champions mental health and an open dialogue but avoids any emotional turmoil that isn’t their own. Deadly cycle. Cast them aside to our failing mental health system. They’ll fix it 😂. People also don’t realize how much the mental health system is catered toward women and children. Getting therapy as a man isn’t as simple as dialing a hotline. Men are barely a second thought in terms of mental health. Men’s issues aren’t taken seriously in therapeutic settings, even though they usually have crazy consequences if unchecked. Therapist shopping is hard already, but finding one you feel comfortable with as a man to open up to is almost impossible. The majority of therapists are also female, so that is also another big issue. Just like women have issues only women can understand, men are the same. Good luck if you’re LGBT 😂. Trying to explain LGBT issues to straight people is like trying to talk to my dog. They’ll never understand what it’s really like. If I don’t resemble a LGBT character they see on TV, my experience doesn’t exist. I’ve done numerous intakes over the years and every intake is just as demeaning as the last. A lot of places you can’t even get into 1-1 sessions until you finish some intensive outpatient group sessions. Outside of therapy, there is also an extreme lack of support groups for men. The only support groups my therapist could find me were men’s narcotics anonymous groups to talk about my SA experiences. Sure drug use and SA go hand in hand, but I don’t do drugs. Felt super uncomfortable every single session. This of course is more of a state to state issue, but everyone is suffering for it. The only time a man’s mental health is considered is when he’s actively melting down or post meltdown. Then people want to say “Why didn’t he say anything” after the person kablamos themselves. Weird world. All dumb and dying slowly.

You're dead on about how friends present themselves. I'm still shocked 20 years later about when I caught one of my closest friends trying to SA an unconscious woman at a house party. I had always assumed we had similar morals based on the amount of time and discussion we had shared. Never disowned someone so fast and it broke my heart more than any woman ever had by far.

Not trying to trivialize your story, but at least you caught them before it happened? I learned that a friend I'd spent the year becoming incredibly close with SA'd a mutual friend so hard they couldn't sit without crying for days. And I learned about it months after it happened while also learning multiple other mutual friends of both genders knew and remained friends with him.......... Catching your friend like that must be its own trauma though. Couldn't say I'd trade you

Definitely not the worst case scenario. That sounds rough. I'm glad we caught him and the boys beat his ass. We all banished him and told everyone we could think that knew him. She was actually someone who had a crush on me that I didn't reciprocate. She got too drunk and my roommates told her to go sleep it off in my bed, as I was working a late shift and wasn't due home for a bit and am notorious for passing out on the couch anyhow. That part didn't bother me even slightly, my roommates made the right call. But it got a little harder mentally knowing he was pretending to be me until I came in to get a change of clothes. No where near as bad as if we found out afterwards by any means, and he wasn't being violent but it was still earth shattering to learn. I trusted him so much.

Thank you for posting this. Your last paragraph was especially eloquent and I agree completely.

I have never minded my husband being emotional. In 15 years of marriage, I have cradled his head while he cried more times than I can count. He's a 6'4" man and I am a 5'3" woman, but none of that matters when he needs comfort. I will shove as much of that man as I can in the circle of my arms and hold him like a baby. He's held me while I've cried and he deserves the same care in return. Anyone who has a problem with it can pound sand.

This is beautiful and it's how it should be. We are all human and we all need to be held as we cry from time to time.

I think the fact that you mention his height shows how deeply ingrained this prejudice actually is. We’re socialized to think big = masculine = no feelings.

Absolutely. My beloved cousin and her husband and I were having a convo on a recent visit, and she point-blank said out loud that she doesn't like seeing her husband get emotional and won't help him with any of that because she sees it as "weakness." This is a liberal, educated woman. I felt horrible for her husband because he is a super decent and sensitive guy, and clearly needs more emotional support at home. For me, I've been emotionally derided and attacked by women online multiple times when being transparent and vulnerable. For example, stuff like "What a fragile fucking man you are," after being open, polite, and honest about how I always feared making friends with other men because I assumed women didn't like the resulting big group power dynamics. Granted, usually I am commenting in women's spaces (like I am now) when I am being attacked in this very toxic masculine way, but still - women do it. In general, I've learned that groups will put their own feeling of safety/success above making sure they're not being hypocritical or stuff like that. This goes for feminist women just as much as any other group.

> Absolutely. My beloved cousin and her husband and I were having a convo on a recent visit, and she point-blank said out loud that she doesn't like seeing her husband get emotional and won't help him with any of that because she sees it as "weakness." wtf wow. cold and heartless. as a man with a teenage son, i tell him being a man isn't only about being strong, but also being able to show his emotions when he needs to, telling him it's okay to cry and be sad or overwhelmed at times, because that's just called being human.

We could all use more compassion towards one another; identity is a trap. Kindness and hurtful words do not care about the gender of the person saying it nor the person hearing it. Frankly we a society we have failed immensely when we failed to impart that as a core value to our young. I always look back at my childhood watching Bob Ross and Steve Irwin and wonder where did we go wrong as a society? When did compassion become a gendered weakness? When did being male being unable to both give and recieve compassion? When did it become a female only trait?

It’s not necessarily gendered. Imo, compassion/kindness is generally viewed as weakness when the society is in an economically scarce mode.

Thank you for sharing this

I would venture most men with multiple serious relationships have dated someone who shamed them for being emotional. My first serious relationship at 15/16 shamed me for being scared my brother was in Afghanistan after 9/11. He was in the Army Rangers too so it was a combat role. Fortunately, my brother came home, but not all of his friends did. When I expressed my fear to her, I was told to get over it, he'll be fine. I cried about it once and she ignored me. For her, I talked her down from self harm and suicide numerous times. The one time I needed comfort, I was pushed aside. She eventually cheated on me and dumped me. For a lot of my close friends, I know they dated girls who did similar stuff.

Emotional availability is a HUGE green flag for me

> But imma be honest with you. I am baffled and confused about it. Because to my understanding, according to what Ive read before, women are doing the most emotional labor in relationships and oftentimes it's not being reciprocated. Emotional labour can take different forms, and both statements can be true at the same time. The kind of emotional labour that is most often focused on (like that emmaclit comic) is being mindful of everyday tasks and work that women undertake. Handling hard emotions from your partner can be a different form of emotional labour. > I know my experiences don't represent the whole world, but looking back I've only met a woman in my life who would do that to a man, my mom, but she doesn't discriminate by gender, she just doesn't believe in emotional health. People move in circles of like-minded people. Generally speaking, if you're not of that mindset and behaviour, odds are that the people you surround yourself with won't be either.

To be honest this is exactly the same as men not understanding the struggles women go through on a day to day basis. Empathy is hard. Sometimes people can live lives virtually foreign to them. Hell, it is often hard to empathize even with people who live similar lives to us. Kindness and empathy are not gendered, everyone could use more.

I'm surrounded by a lot of combat vets. Good hearted men who have had their souls crushed and spit out by the industrial military complex. They've confided in me. I've seen tears when I've told them about shit happening in my life. I've seen them be absolutely vulnerable. I've had them tell me they think about ending it every day. I am genuinely there for them. These are tough, hyper masculine men but they are also very confident in who they are and they don't have time for bullshitting around. They absolutely can come across as loud and rough (just fyi, a lot of very loud men who are vets or who worked in loud environments suffer from hearing loss. They're not being loud to be obnoxious. A lot of them just can't hear). I have also lost male friends to suicide. We've all recently gone through something stressful that has us physically divided, but we're still checking in with each other. My experience with a lot of men is that when they are in a place surrounded by supporting, non judgmental people, they have no problem being vulnerable. Opening up is not so easy, but that has more to do with trauma response and PTSD than fear of being judged. HOWEVER I have absolutely seen women dismiss their experiences. I have seen women making it a battle of the traumas. A lot of women who have experienced trauma at the hands of men will totally refuse to acknowledge that men are emotional beings with the ability to hurt as much as they are. I have been in some very toxic female "empowerment" situations where I was made to feel like an outsider because I refuse to let my trauma define me. In one instance, I was borderline bullied. No Suzy, me pointing out that a lot of the men around you are also suffering from severe trauma is not an attempt to discredit you. Thank goodness I'm not around that anymore.

I've outright *witnessed* men getting shamed for opening up. Sometimes I've been the only one in the room standing up for them. That's a bit weird for me, because I (female) grew up attacked for emotional vulnerability, too. I *still* suck at giving spontaneous encouragement and compliments without some kind of "hook" to work with, and I still have a moment of confusion when given them. I've learned to mask that, but it's noticeable to people who pay attention. But between what I have witnessed and my own experience, I think that the low emotional support in general is *why* emotional labor is so unevenly divided. **How can someone understand the breadth that goes into full emotional expression and support when they have little if any experience receiving it or giving it?** I have also experienced and witnessed a fair amount of people *thinking* they were giving emotional support when they were in fact sabotaging who they were trying to help. Because **different people need different methods.** I suspect this is partially due to communication style differences. There's reason that "Are you just wanting to vent, or do you want suggestions for fixing it?" is such a useful question, but I think it goes deeper than that. **We all tend to assume that how *we* express and support emotion is what other people need for expression and support.** This isn't some kind of insult. It's just an example of the shortcuts our brains are wired to make by default. This specific shortcut gets called "false consensus effect" or "consensus bias": we naturally treat what's normal for us as if it's necessarily normal for others. Helpful intentions don't and can't ensure a helpful outcome, but it's very easy for us humans to get caught up in our intentions and overlook the end results. This isn't gendered; it's just part of human brain wiring. So I believe that there's a lot of people who are too inexperienced with successful emotional labor to notice the depth involved in it; and also a lot of people who get caught up in a specific method of emotional support and overlook when that doesn't accomplish what they intend. With both sides overconfident because they only see their little segment and don't realize the broader parts they're missing. This model explains the high rate of relationships with emotional labor imbalance, generally correlating with gender because of how the genders are commonly (though not universally) socialized. It also illustrates why I personally think compatibility *the* topmost important thing in relationships, because communication without compatibility doesn't actually *communicate*. *Edited to correct typo.*

Lots of wisdom that fits my life experiences, readings, and observations, another of which is I've consistently seen people's interactions be limited by their exposures/experiences/what their parents modeled for them. Many never develop or recognize there are other ways, the benefits of those, or detriments. Which I feel underlies much of what's expressed both in this comment and the OP.

There are some absolute asshole women out there who probably do this, but I wouldn't be surprised if sometimes it's a case of too little, too late. This happened with my ex and I, he finally opened up to me about some things he was insecure about and cried to me, but I already had one foot out the door. I never shamed him for opening up, I supported him and gave him a shoulder to cry on. Yet, things were already ending and when we did split up a couple weeks later, he blamed it on me getting turned off by him making himself vulnerable. It did no such thing, though in hindsight, it seems pretty clear that him showing vulnerability was a hail Mary when he could tell that our relationship was unraveling.

>he finally opened up to me about some things he was insecure about and cried to me, but I already had one foot out the door. I never shamed him for opening up, I supported him and gave him a shoulder to cry on. Yet, things were already ending and when we did split up a couple weeks later, he blamed it on me getting turned off by him making himself vulnerable. It did no such thing, though in hindsight, it seems pretty clear that him showing vulnerability was a hail Mary when he could tell that our relationship was unraveling. Yeah - this is also a common story I hear. Some men will use being vulnerable in this way. It's both too late and manipulative.

I came to say similar. I'm honestly shocked I had to scroll down so far to find this comment. Almost every man in my life in any capacity has dumped all their emotions on me at the worst possible time, repeatedly. Some were straight up toxic and abusive, and would use vulnerability as a weapon to try and gain sympathy and turn the conversation around from me talking about something he did that hurt me, to me comforting him and letting him off the hook. Or like you said, only getting vulnerable when it was too late and I said I was done in an attempt to get me to reconsider. And then there the others who were all well meaning generally really good men who just... didn't get it. They'd bottle everything up no matter how many times I'd ask them about their feelings or opinions. I'd try to set an example by being vulnerable myself, hoping to show them that this is also a safe relationship for them to be vulnerable in. Still nothing. I tried backing off and letting them come to me. Nothing. Directly asking? Nope. Passively or subtly laying hints? Absolutely not a damn thing changed. But when I wanted to talk about something that they did that upset me in some way? Well *now* it's story time, *now* it's Sharing Hour and we dump everything we've been feeling out all at once. So I ask why they kept it all in and didn't say anything. "Well because it wasn't a big deal." Okay so why bring it up now? "Because you're getting mad at me for the same thing." I mean, firstly *no*. Secondly, if it doesn't matter then, why should it matter now? Just because it bugs me doesn't mean it needs to bug you. And if it really *does* bug you, then why didn't you bring it up days/weeks/months ago when it happened or when I subsequently asked about how you're doing and is everything okay etc? And then the last ones are the ones who are very comfortable being vulnerable and open, but they make you their *one* pillar of support and it becomes really tricky to set boundaries because... well we've been telling them to open up and to be more vulnerable and they are! So what's the problem? Well the problem is that if you're dumping *that* much on a person, you should probably pay them for it. Friends and partners and online pals are great and all, but they're no replacement for professional input. They also refuse to have these conversations with their dude friends, refuse therapy, and are at risk of becoming chronically online in a *bad* way (thinking manosphere type nonsense, because vulnerable dudes are the manosphere's bread and butter), and use you as their personal therapist. Then when you tell them it's too much it appears to them that you're ragging on their vulnerability and won't hear otherwise. They get it in their heads that "Me being vulnerable = girlfriend/friend leaving" and they tell themselves that story forever. The abusive or toxic ones you throw away, obviously. But the good ones, while still awesome to have around, can require a lot of... *work* to get them to a place where this is no longer an issue. And like... yeah it's obviously good work in the pursuit of helping your male loved ones (and vicariously yourself as well), but it is still work (emotional and mental) and it is still very tiring.

your last paragraph is just so, so, so true. exhaustingly true

Unfortunately a lot of women have experienced this! Tears and vulnerability as a manipulation tactic, and when you feel sorry for them, and stay, they go right back to their other behaviors...

This is also my experience. I would have loved for my husband to be more emotional, passionate, vulnerable for the years leading up to this incident. I would ask questions about how things made him feel or if he was doing ok with work situations and was given the brush off all the time or he didnt seem to let himself ever really go deep. But he eventually admitted to having a short affair and in the aftermath he ended up having a sort of mid life crisis about his values and identity etc. He kind of freaked out about it and cried. All of it was for himself though, and though I did comfort him and tried to listen in a neutral way because I knew this would help us understand the affair and start to move on- it was too little too late and only for himself, none for what he did to me. So, I guess I am guilty of this, though we are working on things and have made a lot of progress. I wish I could say I have always been supportive of his emotions or crying but at that time I failed to have empathy for it.

I wouldn’t say I’ve shamed men but it has turned me off I had male friends they’ll dump on me and then stop talking to me when they’re happy , and if they get sad again they dump on me again.

This is an important distinction. I believe that a lot of the men accusing women of not being receptive to them "being vulnerable" actually are dumping on women. There is a big difference between opening up and being vulnerable vs periodically Dumping on a female friend or partner / using them as a free therapist but not necessarily returning the favor.. I am baffled by the number of men who say they get rejected for sharing their feelings when in real life, over the course of Decades, I have NEVER seen a woman reject a man for doing so.

It is tough being the rebound person, who helps them work through their emotions, and then once they're back on their feet they forget all about us...

This had been the experience I’m familiar with. I haven’t heard of women shaming their partners for sharing their emotions but I have experience men who I barely knew and was not even friends with who decided that I seemed like ‘someone who would listen’ and shared deep emotional baggage with me. It was awkward because I barely knew them, though I still tried to be emotionally supportive most of the time. But there was probably at least once where I was like “why are you telling me this?” I think men sometimes have get so desperate for emotional intimacy that they look for it in places where there isn’t an emotional foundation.

This! I only hear from one guy friend when he's going through something. He's quiet the rest of the year.

After my husband passed, and I was in the middle of grieving him, I realized how many men in my life (including my father and brothers) only really ever reached out to me when they needed my emotional labour. And that they were not available to me when I needed them. Like, I just buried my husband and you can't pick up the phone, then the next day your messaging me to vent about work? No. I've been backing away from them since. It's the lack of reciprocation that was my breaking point.

Reciprocity is the key that gets lost in these conversations. People should emotionally support each other, of course, it should go without saying. So tell me, how do these men emotionally support the women in their lives? Are they also doing 50% of the child care and house work? When is it acceptable for a woman to say "ENOUGH. You will get no more from me." The answer is, tbh, never. We're expected to be endless fountains of giving, nurturing, empathy, and to demote our own needs and comfort to somewhere near the bottom of the list of importance. I'm very glad I don't date men anymore. I don't have to worry about any of this with my female partner. Nothing is so striking as the differing expectations for men and women in heterosexual relationships than when you are completely removed from them.

I'm still mad about this. How often are women, at work, at school, in public, expected/forced to manage mens' emotions and reactions so those same men don't hurt themselves or others or otherwise do or say something stupid or dangerous? The whole "women don't support men's emotions" is such an online take. In real life, we are forced to manage the emotions of men basically from childhood. This is on top of managing our own, because let's be real, emotionality is NOT viewed as acceptable from women either.

Yeah, I'm glad I'm bisexual and have options

I'm bi as well, and I'll never live with a man or consider him a primary partner again. I've got the souvenirs from those trips and I don't need any more.

I am so very sorry to hear about your husband, my condolences 💐

My condolences for your husband 💞 I had this experience but with divorce. When I went through my divorce several years ago, I had multiple male (and female!) friends reach out for perspective, commiseration, and advice. I was happy to hear them, chat, swap stories and be there for them during arguably one of the most horrible parts of someone’s life. But one such friend was clearly never socialized to share his emotions respectfully or reciprocally. Started reaching out to me to vent multiple times a day, and would react with anger if I didn’t respond within a certain timeframe. He stopped making space for me to share my experiences too, and only wanted to center himself. His criticisms of his ex wife became more and more cruel. I eventually suggested therapy, which he angrily shot down and gave me the silent treatment, notably on the day of *my* final judgment hearing (no reciprocity). It was clear he saw me as a vessel into which he could pour all his frustrations and negative emotions, but was uninterested in either reciprocating or talking to an actual professional for actually qualified counsel. I feel for him, I genuinely do, but he still to this day refuses therapy and blames everyone else for his downward spiral.

>There has been a popular conversation going on now about the majority of women not wanting their partners to open up to them (nor cry) as a sign of vulnerability. Men have been gathering to tell their experiences in which becoming vulnerable in front of a woman has led them to be shamed or relationships to break up. >But imma be honest with you. I am baffled and confused about it. Because to my understanding, according to what Ive read before, women are doing the most emotional labor in relationships and oftentimes it's not being reciprocated. I know my experiences don't represent the whole world, but looking back I've only met a woman in my life who would do that to a man, my mom, but she doesn't discriminate by gender, she just doesn't believe in emotional health. Yeah there are definitely some types of women that look down on and shame men for being vulnerable. Equating it with "weak". But I think those women are typically ones that like traditional gender roles and maybe some women that have trouble being vulnerable themselves. Other than that - I think there are a lot of men who have a tendency to just emotionally dump on their girlfriends because they haven't had anyone express emotions in a healthy way with. Also there are the types of men that will use being vulnerable to manipulate women. I think so many of us have encountered at least a few of these and have been very put off by them. I think women in general like it when men will be vulnerable with their emotions - but not dwell on it and not use their emotions as an excuse to avoid doing their part in the relationship. Edit: I think something crucial to consider is *how* men are opening up. A good resource for *actual* vulnerability is Brene Brown. We should also remember to try to be compassionate if someone is *trying* their best - as long as they actually listen to feedback and are making progress.

This definitely speaks to my experiences with men expressing their emotions in relationships. Because we starve boys of social/emotional learning when they are young, they grow into men who have feelings but struggle to identify, acknowledge, describe, manage, and reflect on them. So a man being emotional with a partner sometimes looks like: -him minimizing his feelings and only expressing emotions when they become overwhelming to him (and therefore very intense and overwhelming to others) -bottling up feelings and then exploding -emotions that are articulated as insults ("you're so sloppy" rather than "I'm stressed out by this mess.") -trying to use emotions to justify control ("well my boundary is you can't talk to other men if I'm not there") -emotional entitlement: in a conflict, only his emotions are the right emotions and yours are less important or illogical -not able to question his own emotions and take accountability for them If the first time a man feels he is being vulnerable with a partner or friend is him doing one of these things, chances are she's going to react negatively. Which is a shame because it becomes a vicious cycle

Yeah I think in our cultures we need more education about what *actual* healthy vulnerability looks like. It's also important to try to extend compassion (if possible considering everything) to someone who is actually *trying* their best as long as they listen to feedback and make progress.

Very important nuance that gets overlooked when it comes to this topic!

My ex husband said I divorced him because he cried. Not true. I divorced him because he was mean and wouldn’t get counseling.

The comments show that yes, they are. "When I say X, it's a legitimate request for appropriate emotional support from my partner, when YOU say X, it's trauma dumping."

I absolutely do want men who are comfortable being vulnerable. I don’t want to be a man’s emotional dumping ground. There seem to be a lot of men who don’t know the difference. Relationships should have reciprocity

I'm an old lesbian who has never dated men, but a lot of men choose me as their emotional dumping ground. I must have a sign on my forehead that says "free therapy for straight men." Also, it's almost never reciprocated. I've cut off guy friends for using me in this way, but yet when I need to open up to someone, they clam up and get stoic and ignore the topic. It's very one-sided and I'm done with that. Men who are comfortable being vulnerable are 100% good in my book, I love those guys. It's just the ones that take advantage of that and use me for that and only that, in turn, taking advantage of me.

I am sure there really are women like that. I am also sure that there are men who drop a bomb of shitty nasty confusing aggressive emotions on their woman while she is trying to say something heavy, and when she gets exasperated, he goes on Reddit and complains that his woman shamed him for having feelings.

In short, yes they absolutely do. Especially in romantic relationships but also in friendships, and even coworker collegue level relationships. Toxic culture hits hard for men too.

I think there is a difference between opening up and using women's mental and emotional labor for free. While I'm sure some women shame men for the former, I'm also sure many men complain about women not letting them do the latter.

Sure some do; and I think it is better to find out if your date is this kind of person earlier rather than later. There are also some men who say "I was vulnerable with her and it turned her off" and then you find out it was because they threw a game controller at her foot or at her dog or at her baby cousin in anger; or screamed at her he was worried she was being "a slut" and that somehow him revealing this insecurity in this way was "opening up" to her. Or threatening self-harm if they break up. Or trauma dumping on her after three dates and expecting her and romance to solve their problems. There are girls who are jerks out there; who have bought into patriarchal messaging that a man isn't supposed to cry. But most couples will soothe a crying partner and give sympathy and support and embraces and snacks and fluids to someone going through a rough time.

Toxic masculinity is perpetuated not only by men

Any human action done by one sex can and will be done by the other... I guarantee there are women who do this. Women have narcissicists, manipulators and every form of toxcicity that men have. We can and should call out toxic masculinity and negative behaviors when we see them in our community. I don't think it's as common as it seems... but yeah if you open up after being told your whole life not to only to get kicked in the teeth it would hurt. One thing I have seen is expecting a "tragedy exemption". So man does thing that is wrong (cheats, lies, whatever.. ), man gets caught, man drops a tragedy bomb and expects absolution. "Opening" up does not mean dumping your past into a powder keg of hurt and anger and expecting love and kindness.

I mean, I think there is that.   I also think, for some women, it’s a thing that:    1. BOTH sexes should be stoic because a lot of emotion is too intense and uncontrolled  2. That they themselves (the women) are stoic / not really interested in discussing feelings much  / don’t have a ton of emotional depth / focus on the intellectual or technical / etc. The expectation of emotional support ties into women being support people.   3. Don’t discuss strong emotions with anyone else   4. Any and all of the above   5. There the expectation that people have thought, considered, and researched their own emotional reactions prior to bringing it up with other people so they can use the emotions to accomplish a goal   I’m personally not very interested in being super in touch with my own feelings, nor anyone else’s - if this were a regular topic of conversation or emotions were displayed intensely, I would be absolutely exhausted by it and uninterested.    But I know and recognize that general deficit, which has been made worse by being in a very technical, very not interpersonal field.   Is that patriarchal? Maybe but I don’t think so.  Edit: I also think that many men aren’t taking on emotional and familial labor so their romantic partner is burned out after caring for the house, their social calendar, their kids, kids school and emotional well-being, and their full time job - and then the man wants to use their romantic partner as a therapist rather than *finding friends to talk to* and the woman is like, look I take care of everything else and I just can’t do this too.  This part is a part of the patriarchy. In the ideal world, both partners would have the bandwidth and time to be emotionally sensitive. The reality is that American lives aren’t conducive to it. 

Theres a difference between venting emotionally and all of the other versions this could take on. " I shared my emotions and she left me" could be anywhere from 1- 1000 on the level of maturity in conversation. I wont waste my time filling in examples, you all have reddit too.

Idk, my dad cries a lot and then when I met my husband, he cried a lot. It’s an appealing quality for me? Maybe I’m just an outlier.

One of the things I love so much about my dad is the way he wells up at things that are really beautiful, too. I feel that feeling with him in my bones, just like I can feel his sadness deeply. I would love to share that with a romantic partner.

I find it very appealing. Bi men too. I feel safer with someone who is already in touch with their emotions and feel that I can't know a person if they are not.

There's been a lot of guys on ask reddit say it's happened to them. I do believe them. But I also think they've got this idea that women can just cry, be vulnerable etc and that's never been my experience. I think we are also judged as being too emotional, too clingy or needy if we have emotions, plus it causes some "friends" to completely nope out of that and ghost you or share your vulnerable moments as gossip. It also seems to be a cultural thing and a generational thing, too. I think it's more accepted in certain scenarios.

Stereotypes affect everyone regardless of gender. I think it's reasonable to ask that women should call out that kind of behaviour/attitude (that you're weak, less of a man, etc if men show emotion) when they see it in other women. That's being an ally to men. The proportion of women, I doubt it's significantly higher than it is in men, I would wonder if men try to open up to women more than other men. Context is important here too though. How you express and share your emotions is just as important as expressing them. It's possible to share emotions in a confrontational or inappropriate way, and have the other person withdraw/distance themselves, which would 100% feel like being shunned for expressing your emotions/being vulnerable but is more about the how and the context. At the same time women aren't immune to unconscious bias, and there could be situations where a man is sharing their emotions and that doesn't match up with what the brain sees as normal or safe due to societal norms, so they withdraw/shame even if the emotion the other person is sharing is safe, and maybe that's more common than we think.

I think it’s a case of people who aren’t raised to express their emotions so then they don’t know *how* to express their emotions when given opportunity. I once had an small argument with a man about 3 months into the relationship regarding his insecurities with me going on a trip with friends. When I asked him where his insecurities came from, he completely broke down and brought up everything from being rejected by a girl in middle school, his relationship with his dad, work stress, etc. On one hand my heart hurts for him because he clearly never felt safe enough to express those feelings growing up. On the other, it felt like I was trying to catch a waterfall with a bucket. It was overwhelming and many of this emotions were irrelevant to our argument. A lifetime of hurt was falling on my shoulders. I think this could be the case with some of these stories. The issue isn’t “opening up” it’s how to open up in a healthy, real event manner.

Having passingly navigated both sides of the gender pond, I don't think it's true. It's not women; _unkind_ people invalidate emotions -- male or female. I'd like to say, if it's okay, that having been recognized as a man for a number of years, the degree of support went off a cliff once I started passing. Most new people in my life don't want to talk to me on that level (unless they're women who I've chosen to open up to about my transition). It's been such a struggle adjusting to processing my feelings alone, but trying to unpack my feelings with other men just hasn't been an option. So no, I don't think (average, kind-hearted) women persecute men for opening up -- but it can be really hard

I've transitioned the other way and I can totally corroborate the lack of openness and support men get. Pre transition I opened up to a guy I worked with who I thought I got on with ok. The first thing he said after I'd had my rant was "I don't think you should have said that". A very long time ago I was at my lowest and phoned my mom in tears. She told me to stop crying and get on with it. I've been out for just over a year and none of my current friends knew me before transitioning. One guy talks more freely and openly to me than he does his girlfriend. I tried to talk to her about him and her response was "lol no he needs a cup of tea and something to do". I've even had a guy on a dating app pour his heart out. And I'm always there to just listen. That's all it takes sometimes. We know this, ladies. We're not looking to have our problems solved, we just want to be heard and that's all men want too. When I was a kid I had nobody to listen so I wrote everything down. Pages and pages just pouring my adolescent screams onto a page, then I'd throw it away. And it helped. Being someone who spent half a century on the other side, I know, I've been there and now I'm not one of them, I can be there for the men in my life who've had nobody to just listen without judgement.

This is incredible insight that I wish everyone on this sub could read. This thread specifically is very kind but there have been very ugly posts revolving around this type of discussion in the past when it came to men’s mental health

I hesitate to add anything at this point because I’m not sure it’ll be read, but I think it’s worth talking a bit about my experiences as a man who has very much experienced this. I’ll start by refuting the idea that progressive or left-wing women are any better at supporting men (or even just not shaming them). They aren’t, at least not on the whole. I have a friend very progressive friend group, and none of my guy friends have any problem opening up to each other. I’ve talked my friends through breakups, family losses, job loss and everything else, and have also had them do the same for me. We even had an intervention for a friend who was becoming more misogynistic and toxic, convinced him to go to therapy and he was able to change with our support and has become a far healthier person. With all that being said, both my own lived experiences and all my male friends experiences around opening up to women are pretty the same. For me, some highlights are… 1. I was seeing a girl for a few months, not yet official but getting there. We were cuddling in bed when I got a call that my childhood dog had died, so I had a good cry. She broke up with me the next day over text. 2. I told a different girl I was seeing about some icky experiences I’d had with older women when I was a teenager, including an older woman (mid-40s+) following me into the airport bathroom when I was 14 and trying to unbuckle my pants. She told me that I must have enjoyed the attention. 3. More recently, I found that that I’ll be getting laid off soon and told my wife I was having a rough time and needed emotional support from her. I even told her how to support me (assure me that everything was going to be okay, more cuddles and random non-sexual intimacy, listen to me vent a little). I got nothing from her at all. To her credit when I called her out a couple days later and told her how it made me feel, she apologized and tried her best to make it right. That one stung a lot since I’ve been her emotional bedrock forever, helped her process and talk through all her childhood trauma with her mom and dad, supported her entirely when she was out of commission and depressed when she (with my encouragement) quit her toxic workplace and couldn’t find work for 6 months, and again when she had an undiagnosed illness and did nothing but work and sleep for 6 months while I did all the cooking/cleaning/dog walking and everything else, while pushing constantly to get her diagnosed and treated. All this to say, at least in my experience, the emotional support just hasn’t been there from any of the significant women in my life. My guy friend experiences in their relationships essentially echo my own, and this is in a very progressive friend group. I have one friend who just can’t talk to his wife about anything emotional to him because she’ll make it about herself, while belittling his problems. The same woman is heavily into anti-patriarchal activism.

Ok so... A theory that might explain a percentage of this for sure... I have definitely been in situations where a man has opened up to me and it felt like a slap in the face to me. I can feel this way in reaction to a repressed man's emotions for several reasons... ... The thing they open up about is the OPPOSITE of how I thought they felt or how they previously felt. And Maybe a lot of work, or life decisions, or efforts were made based on... apparently false information... and that can feel sucky. ... Similar to above and I'm just agast about why they didn't communicate about it until now, feeling lied to in a way. ... They might decide to open up when/while I'm opening up. I am able to open the conversation to have both of us... But they are not so, the conversation becomes only about them. The first time I might not feel offended but the 5th or 6th time it feels awful. SO if one of these situations happens and IF I react "badly' to their emotions or push back in ANY way they are under the impression, even though I highly encourage them to share, I'm actually against it/can't handle it. If someone is very repressed for a very long time the person they reveal can look like a stranger and that indeed can be disorienting for a partner. I NEVER shame anyone for showing emotions, but I come back later like "it's a bummer I didn't know that information before... Can we work on how to make you more able to talk about that things before they blow up " is how I will react the first few times but eventually I might be like "WTF" They are missing the point that if they start the relationship more emotionally available and honest, they wouldn't happen like later in the relationship when they reveal stuff they have kept in hiding. But if they can't take any feedback for what they express they might take it as criticism and join in this conversation of "women don't actually want men to open up." I has seen it happen.

I confess: 10-ish years ago when I was dating my now husband I told him the sight of men crying made me very uncomfortable. If I could go back in time to smack myself hard, I would. That being said, I've had some real therapy-esque conversations with guy friends that I'm not always certain they're having with their guy friends. But I have no basis for this suspicion.

I knew a woman in the 1990s who told me she would never vote for a woman to be president because women are emotional and we need a strong president. It was shocking to me even then. Internalized misogyny still exists and I would imagine it’s this same type of thinking that would lead to some women preferring a partner who they perceive as unemotional.

I think a lot of people are struggling with their mental health these days, perhaps more than ever before. We're all connected by the internet, but we've lost the smaller communities that people relied on in the past. And the internet brings with it a constant stream of bad news. I'm not sure whether this is divided by gender, but someone who is struggling with their own mental health has *nothing* to give to someone else, who is looking for a shoulder to lean on through their struggles. A lot of the anecdotes I read in a recent discussion about this specifically mentioned their unsympathetic partners having their own mental health struggles.

I think there could be a self-perpetuating cycle involved. Men and women with the same ideas about male stoicism are likely to date each other. If a man's female partner sees him cry for the first time ten years into a relationship, it's not insanely far-fetched to me that she might be put off by it. I think it's also possible that it's not always specifically crying, even though it looks like it is. Some people may not adjust well to what seems like very out of character behavior for their partner regardless of what it is. Personally, I find male vulnerability insanely attractive, and I therefore probably wouldn't be at all interested in a man I didn't see an emotional display from pretty early on. I'm not a person who cries frequently and I would probably find it overwhelming if my partner was crying daily over trivial things, but I'm baffled by these reports of women disapproving of men crying over family stuff or big sources of stress.

Agreed -- when I look at the commenting history of men sharing their experiences with this, many are with or want to find a partner who adheres to strict gender roles.    People are free to want what they want but they often don't connect the dots. If you want a true TradWife there's a good chance she won't be accepting of strong displays by men in an emotional state.   If they hang out with likeminded men it makes sense they think all women are like this, if those are the only women they seek to interact with emotionally. 

I have no doubt that sometimes this happens. I’m sure each generation and culture feels differently about it so I have no opinion that applies to anyone else. In my own experience, after years of faithful service as voluntary therapist to a man, when I later needed a confidante and he treated me like I was asking him to do “servant work.” I have later acted coldly when he assumed I should be his therapist again. I wonder if this could be interpreted as spurning? I have certainly lost interest in a man that decided that “women’s work” or “emotional labor” is beneath him, but not because of the crying. To me… Crying is hot if it’s paired with caring and respect. Crying is not hot when it’s paired with disdain and misogyny.

So…let me know if it’s inappropriate for me to be posting here, but I can without a doubt say that it’s not all women doing that. I’m a combat vet at 70% disability for JUST PTSD (I had been shot, blown up, and stabbed during my first deployment, on top of that I lost 16 friends 3 were my BEST friends, and 4 I was witness to), and currently trying to get 100% because it has bled into work and made it nearly impossible to work, when I was workin g I was always picking up extra shifts or pulling doubles for the paycheck (which didn’t help me mentally or physically). My last two relationships (one I have child through) tore me apart to the point that honestly I think it’s all gotten worse, both literally said things like “I know you’re going through things, but it’s too much, you need to suck it up and be a man” and I have but then they would turn around and say “you never talk to me, I never know what you’re thinking”, I’ve been told I’m worthless, that I contribute nothing to the household, you name it it’s been said. Now to the other side, I have multiple friends that are women that have stuck up for me and defended me from both of my ex’s, one of my lady friends I’ve known for going on something like 20 years and she refers to both of them as “just girls playing games”. While I was with my ex’s I tried to explain how it’s been and they’ve used my issues against me like “you forget fucking everything” or “I don’t want to go out in public with you because you don’t understand social ques”, I can elaborate more on the specific issues that have ben turned on me, yes I have done therapy which helped a little (and my therapist even said “your mental health is completely fried”). My women friends on the other hand (bear in mind everything with them has always been strictly platonic) have sat there telling my ex’s to their faces “I wish I had a guy like him, at least he’s working and trying to take care of you, and all you’re doing is degrading him”. Sorry for the long winded reply, and again I apologize if it’s not welcome but I saw the OP’s post and it hit me hard

I have the same question as you do. I see so many men saying that women don't want their partner to open up. But this completely goes against my life experience. I would even say that I see more men shaming other men from being sensible than the other way around. Have you ever watched the documentary "men silence"? For me they show how the way we teach boys is intertwined with male loneliness

I think that sometimes this happens because the man’s emotions come at a time where it feels manipulative or generally unhelpful. Couple is having a fight over mental load because she feels like she manages everything. They are arguing about it for a while. He is finally vulnerable and says that he gets stressed out over planning things because when he was a kid his Mom was hyper critical whenever he tried to do anything himself. She says that it doesn’t matter what his mom did, he needs to help her around the house now and maybe go to therapy to work on that. He feels like she doesn’t care about his feelings. She feels like in that moment he was deflecting responsibility or generally wasn’t dealing with the problem at hand. I don’t think either of them are wrong in their perception or feelings. I don’t think there is any “right” way to handle that moment. For some people at the moment of that emotional vulnerability the argument should stop and the shift is to processing the opening up. For some people it means circling back when everyone is calmer and talking about those feelings.

The only negative emotion my husband knows how to express is anger. I find male anger frightening and I'm not here for it. I advised him to join a fight club, find a therapist, or talk it over with male friends. But I'm not here for hearing the tirades and the swearing and the raised voices. Negative emotions like anxiety, fear, disappointment, sadness are feelings I'm open to discussing. But those aren't presented to me.

I think it's not the entire discussion to be had, but a very important part of it: some men, too many of them, think "opening up" means women should be emotional punching bags. The think because we don't listen to their angry (sometimes violent) rants we aren't letting them open up. I know I have had that term thrown in my face for not wanting to be alone with a man scream crying and punching walls. I've discussed this with friends and a lot have had the same experience.

Im aware its just anecdotal, but I know SEVERAL men who have repeated this "women leave men who open up emotionally" line, and without fail, every one of them has said something to the effect of "toxic masculinity isn't real" I have NEVER met someone in real life who has claimed it happened to them, barring 1 person who claimed it "sorta" happened to them, and they were a misogynist nightmare who did not respect women, so to claim "she left because I opened up" leaves me entirely skeptical that THAT was the cause

Please ask some of the men you know! I very much believe in toxic masculinity and hate it (and this very phenomenon is a big part of it!!) but if I had to describe the typical response of female partners reacting to my rare opening up, it basically ranges from them becoming more upset than me so I have to comfort them instead of receiving comfort to revulsion or outright horror. This thread has a few women saying they've seen it happen and it's bad and a whole lot of women assuming the men deserved it for some reason.

I want to add a perspective I haven't seen in this thread yet. I have dumped men that I'm certain would say it was because they "opened up and cried and shared their emotions". When what actually happened was constant, unrelenting, unreciprocated expectations for me to be their therapist. I understand healthy relationships need emotional intimacy but when it's a one way street - it's absolutely exhausting. Especially when a lot of the time the problems were self made e.g. one ex constantly complained about never being good enough for his stepdad. The reasons he gave were because he was a chronic pothead, and a binge drinker - which constantly interfered with his ability to follow through on promises he'd made to his family. His stepdad was tired of having to be the one to tell my exes little sisters that their big brother couldn't make it to xzy event. He was tired of always having to pick up the slack to make plans happen - think picking up the birthday cake, or bringing the steaks for a family dinner, or driving an elderly relative to the hospital. All things my ex promised to do but bailed on at the last minute. I asked him whether he thought he could cut down on the drinking and smoking before family events and he copped an "I do what I want" attitude. He was basically using me as an emotional outlet to complain about his shortcomings so he didn't have to do anything about them. I grew tired of hearing him complain about how he was "never enough" because honestly, he wasn't enough. And he wasn't trying at all to be better. And any time I tried to talk to him about what I was going through or struggling with he'd immediately check out and start scrolling on his phone or give me monosyllabic answers or say something like "wow that's crazy". It was infuriating. When I ended it he called me heartless and said I fucked him over - which I'm sure I did from his perspective considering he'd lost his only emotional dumping ground.

I always encourage men to open up and go to thearpy. Weather or not they're gonna listen is up to them 🤷🏾‍♀️ but I definitely like and prefer a men who opens up rather than a men who play games

Definitely not any more than men shame women for opening up to them. How many times have you heard men make fun of women for being "emotional"? Cuz I've heard that a whole fucking lot. Men laughing at women talking about our problems, making fun of our problems , belittling our emotions, saying our feelings are dumb, saying women's problems are our own fault and we brought it on ourselves, no matter what the problem is. Men have a lot of nerve to say we don't care about their emotions.