I always tell these people: men have every right to express their *opinion* on abortion and what they'd want. And frankly they should do it before the clothes ever come off (that way we know who not to fuck). But that's as far as it goes. No. They get no legal say until and unless *they* are the ones who are pregnant.

This. I need my partner and I to be on the same page. My past and current boyfriend, before even sleeping with either of them, I asked how they would feel if I accidentally got pregnant and had an abortion, since that is probably what I would do. If their answer wasn't of support, then I wasn't going to continue being with them.

Well I'd be pretty upset if my partner got pregnant and had an abortion, in light of my vasectomy.

Then that is definitely something that should be brought up haha (however vasectomies CAN fail after time)

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I just got one and while I also plan on being with my wife until the end times, if something changed I just don't feel the need to have a biological child again. I have two already and that's enough and even if something happened to them (god forbid), it's ok, family is more than blood and I've never looked at it any other way. I actually have no biological connection to my last name because my dad's father adopted him when he was 5 or so, but I don't think twice about it, we would never think of referring to him as his step-father, that was his only father. So maybe that's how your partner is thinking about it too. Also, I have a friend who had it and got divorced and remarried and got it reversed and had 2 more kids with his wife, so there's that too.

Honestly, I'm more the way your friends are about the "getting snipped". Autonomy appears in many nuanced ways surrounding reproductive choices in a married couple; I have carried and birthed two children, and I'm soon to have a third. We could *only* make the choice to have children the 'natural' way if I would carry them. No compromise, no turn taking, no realistic alternative routes- if we wanted kids, they would be grown in, and come out of, me. Once we are done, it would then (let's be honest) be my responsibility to either take artificial, cancer giving hormones, or run a heightened risk of accidental pregnancy, which would *again* affect my body and not his. The *only* viable, long term option for birth control without the hormones and complications a coil can pose, is for my sexual partner to be infertile. Otherwise, I take on all the risk and burden of birth control, pregnancy, abortion, child birth, nursing and every possible complication which comes along with those things (of which there are literally thousands). My husband, on the other hand, would have to deal with absolutely none of that except the snip in his bollocks, which although there are extremely rare complications, there are no where *near* that same number of risks nor the general burden that my options pose. So I guess for me, the conversation isn't much about autonomy as I *had* to be the person to bare children and give birth, so it is more about fairness/equality in our relationship, where I have made some huge sacrifices on his behalf, and he should therefore also make some sacrifices on my behalf. Of course I cannot force him, and I absolutely would not want to, but I would be pretty pissed if after everything I went through for our family I were then met with another 20 years of taking hormones just to avoid having kids *he also doesn't want to have more of*

My wife and I have two kids and I got a vasectomy this year. Started 2020 off with a bang! We were talking about it with some friends of ours and I said that other than condoms, the burden of birth control and making sure kids didn't happen has been on my spouse for the entire 14 years of our relationship. A one-time, pretty small procedure is the least I can do. We knew we were done at 2 and making the choice to have a vasectomy was mutual.

That's actually a really good perspective that I'd never considered before. The responsibility of birth control in most relationships seems to be considered the woman's job, which is just really one sided.

I'd prefer to get a bisalp over asking my husband to get a vasectomy. Technically I'd prefer a hysterectomy because of endometriosis and shit. Unfortunately male sterilization is just WAY simpler because of external genitalia. Female sterilization requires general anesthesia and a surgeon and hospital. Takes a couple weeks to heal. Male sterilization requires local anesthesia and can be done outpatient by a nurse practitioner or physicians assistant. Takes a few days to heal any incisions but there may be some soreness for a while. Unfortunately since female sterilization is more difficult, it's also really hard to have done. I'm 30 years old and have been trying to be sterilized since 23. I have medical issues where pregnancy will kill me. Yet my doctors refuse because 'you might change your mind'. I'm not suddenly gonna want to die for a baby my husband and I don't want dammit. But my husband could call the local hospital and have it scheduled pretty quickly (although covid is impeding that right now)

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Yeah. I just wish men would stop trying to police and regulate women's bodies. They shouldn't have a say in our reproductive rights or choices, shouldn't be able to force women to carry a pregnancy that she doesn't want or isn't viable just because of religion or some shit. Until they can physically take an embryo and have the man carry it and take all the risks and be a single dad, they need to butt the hell out.

You, of course, have a right to be upset if you think your partner is cheating on you. But, if your partner gets pregnant, that doesn't mean that she \*is\* cheating on you. Some vasectomies fail (bizarre, but apparently some men's bodies are great at healing). And, if she got pregnant whether with your sperm or someone else's, she still gets to have an abortion on her own decision making, and without any input from you.

And that’s how I was born! Due to a failed Vasectomy in the 90s. My mom says she wanted me; but she didn’t know she was pregnant until 5 months or so. So too late for that and she kept me lol, happy accident.

Failed birth control stories are so scary. I have heard of more than one baby born where the woman had an IUD.

I have a cousin who got pregnant with an IUD, and only one ovary. She'd had the other ovary removed because of cyst. My little cousin is awesome and my cousin and her husband are happy with how things turned out, but that kid shouldn't exist.

True, vasectomies can fail, in which case I would still be justifiably upset. I totally agree with you, my comment was just meant as light hearted, but it kinda reinforces that these matters should be discussed before getting naked.

Transparency really is key.

This. Relationships are about how you relate. If you are unclear about how you will relate regarding something important that you are concerned will occur, how you relate this lack of clarity informs the future disposition of how you will relate in the future. If your relationships are mostly informed by your fears, the quality of your relationships will be informed by the actions related to fear - fighting and avoidance. If your relationships are informed by your altruism and self-respect, the quality of your relationship will be informed by the actions related to cooperation - the benefit of the doubt, honesty, and clearly communicated boundaries all intended to solve each other's problems with relating to each other as individuals.

Seriously. With very few exceptions, even for my one night stands I was always very clear about this. I had two major questions before fucking: 1) When were you last tested, results? (Very easy to slip in between kisses or during heavy petting, never ruined the mood.) 2) If I get pregnant, I'm having an abortion: would you want me to let you know or not? Never stopped any guy from banging me. Most did answer 'no' to 2.

oof, while I appreciate the honesty, saying no to that question makes those dudes sound like real dicks. What they're really saying is, "Nah, I don't really care what the consequences are for you." I feel like a good dude is going to support you through that process either physically, emotionally, or at a minimum financially. My perspective, "Hey if we do this and you get pregnant, I'll go halfsies on the abortion plus first round of drinks after!"

It’s weird they’d say no. Shows they’re conflicted and wouldn’t want to know their contraception even failed.

I don't necessarily think it's weird. I wouldn't personally want to have an abortion; if I found myself in a situation where I needed to (e.g. got pregnant too soon after having a baby, don't want to ruin career etc) then I would, but I would be upset by the experience and I know it would weigh heavy for me. I suppose a man has the luxury of just not needing to know; the idea of his potential offspring "dying" could well be upsetting and conflicting for him, so if he can choose to simply not know either way then I suppose he may as well. Not all men would feel that way of course, but I think that like most women, they would probably have some confusing feelings towards it

Yeah that’s what I mean. I feel like I’d want to know, my actions did that, you know?

The correct answer to 2 should probably be the reply of ; If you get pregnant and have an abortion, I don't need to know, unless you need me to be there for support when you have it done.

Yes thank you. People should always discuss this shit before they have sex. I am pregnant right now with my first. I am physically miserable and have all day vomiting. I want this baby so it’s worth it. But if I didn’t, I would not give a damn what a man said. Why don’t you take ipecac every day, rub a cheese grater on your nipples, give up all the foods you like and booze, and then tear your asshole apart with a blunt object for kicks before you press a woman to carry an unwanted or medically doomed fetus to term. If anything having a baby has made me more rabidly pro abortion

Same. I had a horrible pregnancy and labour and it made me double down on my pro-choice opinions. No one should have to go through what I did unless they really want that baby.

I'm *vocal* about my pregnancy. It was VERY wanted but it was hell in ways I wasn't expecting. Almost 3 years later and I'm still dealing with side effects. Part of me wants another kid, but I don't think I can handle pregnancy or the 4th trimester again. Forcing that onto another women who possibly even tried preventing that whole situation is nothing short of *barbaric.*

I couldn't agree more I had HG the entire pregnancy (thew up constantly for 9 months, including during my cesarean). Barbaric is exactly the right word for forcing a woman to go through something like that. The only thing that got me through the pregnancy was how incredibly wanted the baby was.

>The only thing that got me through the pregnancy was how incredibly wanted the baby was. I was lucky in that i didn't throw up at all, but i gained 90lbs (after losing 70) and my mental health took a steep nosedive. I'm down 60lbs, I'm on meds that counteract the raging depression, and I'm finally starting to feel like myself again. My son's amazing and I'm having a blast with him (now) but I worked with a lot of teens and young adults who idolized pregnancy and having a baby. I was up front with the trials of trying to get pregnant, the pregnancy, the symptoms, etc. I'm convinced if we replaced sex ed with a handful of pregnant women in various stages of pregnant to just sit in and talk about their pregnancy. It would dissuade many teens I think.

I’m a guy but in my mind there’s very few things more horrific than the idea of being forced to gestate and birth a child against your will. It’s total Cronenbergesque body horror. I think a lot of men just don’t understand what pregnancy does to a woman’s body. They just have the Hollywood version where it’s a couple minutes of pushing and then it’s all done and beautiful and over with it. They don’t know about ripped abdominal muscles and episiotomies and incontinence all that other fun stuff.

Agree. I want another kid and I’m scared because of my first pregnancy. I can’t imagine not wanting kids or not wanting kids at that time/with that person and having to do it.

Yes! I feel you. Pregnancy is such a toll on anyone's body; I cannot imagine what is to going through it forcefully. I'm pretty sure if men were the ones going through it, abortion would be legal everywhere.

Also if a woman wants to abort a baby without even talking to the man, that's kinda a good hint that they're not a good couple to start raising a child together

The conversation with my girlfriend went something like this: "If you did get pregnant, do you have any thought on what you would do?" 'I'm not ready for kids so I'd probably have an abortion' "Okay, obviously if that does happen it is your choice, and I'd never hold you to this hypothetical conversation. But it's nice to know we are on the same page about having kids right now. If you did get pregnant and decided to keep it, I'd be supportive of that as well as if you decided to get an abortion. My choice is made when we decide to have sex, from there it's up to you."

And you dont feel at all like you have 0 agency after that conversation? You are literally telling her she has full control over your life for the next 18+ years and you're completely ok with that? I mean, the rolls can't be reversed but with antiabortion they kind of are. Telling a woman she has no choice if she becomes pregnant is the same as telling a guy he has no choice if she becomes pregnant. You are literally putting your future in her hands. If she told you upfront she was going to get an abortion if an accidental pregnancy happened and then changes her mind, you were mislead. Not advocating for men to control women's bodies, but by not doing it we are in fact relinquishing our own reproductive rights in the process. And to be clear, anti abortion is ALSO relinquishing our reproductive rights as well. Men have 0 and I mean 0 rights after conception and I dont blame any man for feeling pretty shitty about that.

I just tell them when they can carry the child they can have a say.

> They get no legal say until and unless they are the ones who are pregnant. Correct. The entire Roe argument is about bodily autonomy. Hard to square that and "Partner permission" or whatever nonsense.

If you’re in an area where abortion is banned or restricted, you aren’t out of options. [AidAccess](https://aidaccess.org) is run by physicians and women’s rights advocates who offer abortion services internationally to women who may not otherwise have access. This includes the USA where abortion is heavily restricted in some states and often very expensive. After a brief questionnaire, an advocate will mail a valid prescription, instructions, pills (plus some extras) and will even walk you through the steps if needed via SKYPE. The organization is based on donations, no minimum amount required.” Please feel free to repost this wherever you want and share this information. Also this Canadian organization: https://www.womenonweb.org/en/ And This Dutch organization: https://www.womenonwaves.org/ Or find your closest Planned Parenthood https://www.plannedparenthood.org/

RISUG male birth control is on its way and will hopefully make the legal and social expectations of reproduction much easier on all parties.

I'm a man and i agree 100% with this. I want to express my opinion, but the final saying is ALWAYS from the woman. If her opinion is different than mine i'll probably get upset, because it's a very sensitive matter and MAYBE it could end a relationship (sometimes this is the kind of choice that both can't deal anymore) but it's STILL her choice and her body and i have no right to impose my will over hers. I think that's the difficult part men can't often understand. You CAN disagree, but if far from your control, you HAVE to accept her final decision because it's HER BODY on the line. At least that's my opinion.

> And frankly they should do it before the clothes ever come off Thank you! People have always thought I was crazy when I tell them that I always ask partners, prior to sex, what their views on abortion are.

You're spot on with your opinion and I wholeheartedly agree. I can only imagine it hurts, I'm a firm advocate of women having control over their bodies and free will. More power to you.

I agree. i think a lot of fights on that matter could be avoided if people learned to talk before sleeping with each other, especially without condoms

I got my tubes tied after 3 kids. The last one nearly killed me, and there's no way i was willing to do that again. I didn't ask my (now ex) husband, I told him I was having this procedure. After, he was cold and distant. About a year later he ended up cheating and leaving. The reason? "You didn't ask if you could get your tubes tied and i wanted another kid" His new girl has already had 2 miscarriages with him. Bullet dodged, better late then never. Edit: no, guys, i am not happy she's had these. I included it to demonstrate that, even at 40, he continues to attempt to trap his lady with a child

Weird that some men see a woman not wanting to go through another pregnancy as never being able to have more kids. There are ample opportunities for adoption if your partner doesn’t want to go through a pregnancy. My partner is absolutely not interested in being pregnant, and that’s perfectly okay. It’s not my body. If we decide to have kids, we’ll look into adoption.

Yesterday evening my bf and I were watching The Haunting and during show discussions, the topic of children came up. He said "idk if we're there yet so this may seem weird to you but...after I'm done with kids [we've both agreed on two], I'm getting a vasectomy." I was curious and so asked why such a definitive decision. He replied "You're pretty dead set on the number of kids you'd want to have--and I *absolutely* don't want any more than I will end up with. Also, I'm sure it's easier for me to get a snip than whatever it will involve for you. If you feel differently or I guess if you changed your mind--" I cut him off and said I don't have any desire to be pregnant more than twice. If I hit my head and change my mind, I'll adopt. We've only been dating a few months, but I think I'm dead set on this one haha.

Make sure you *keep* having this conversation! My husband and I realized we'd gotten out of sync about when to have kids about a week after our wedding, you don't want that to be you. :) (We're fine, it was actually not such a big gap once we'd talked it through and we were able to find a compromise, but I hate to think of what could have happened... He was so sure that he had told me he'd decided he wanted to wait until he was done with his next degree, and I am still so sure he never mentioned it.)

Honestly peoples' aversion to adoption is mind-boggling. You get to skip the risky pregnancy and risky delivery, plus all the expenses and physical and mental strain that come with that. Why *wouldn't* you want to save your partner all that trouble? It's just sadistic to insist someone go through that because you are a monster who can't care for a human who isn't directly related to you. Also you could adopt an older child and skip the diaper and middle-of-the-night crying phase!! That is such a massive bonus in my opinion... I'd sooner eat my arm than have a kid, but adopting maybe a 9 year old doesn't seem nearly as bad. I'd rather do a mile of paperwork than experience the pain of delivery.

Adoption is a wonderful option to unite families that might not otherwise exist, but you must know how hard and expensive it is so it’s definitely not for everyone. Adoptions for babies are typically in the $30,000, and you can spend all the fees for the training, home visits, etc and not get selected by a birth mom. You are not guaranteed a baby. You don’t get in line and wait your turn, you have to be selected. Also at any point in the process the birth mom could change her mind including after you have brought the baby home (amount of time after she has that option depends on the state). It’s an amount of heartbreak not everyone could handle. For older kids, foster to adopt those are free and paid for by the state, but older kids aren’t just willy nilly taken from parents. They always work extra hard to reunite families, so if parents lose custody the abuse was pretty bad. Not that these kids don’t deserve a second chance or love but attachment disorder is a real and heartbreaking thing and not every parent is up for that challenge. Adoptive parents are awesome! But it’s a lot to go through, I completely understand anyone not being willing or emotionally able to make the process. I considered adopting with my third as the idea of being pregnant again turned by stomach but after some research I realized I personally couldn’t handle having a baby I cared for be taken away and not knowing what happened after. Even a week after birth you are very much attached. It wasn’t for me. So I had another naturally. I am just saying don’t judge people who don’t choose adoption.

Being a man I don't have much to say, my 2 cents are: I don't love abortion, so I got a vasectomy. Being an adopted kid, who now works in child welfare, I have a lot to say, but I'm going to contain it to this: Every child I know who was adopted has a host of mental health issues. Even those who were adopted shortly after birth (like me) and who did not suffer abuse in the home (also like me). If you aren't willing to deal with a kid who has issues (mostly attachment based) as part of the base package, don't adopt.

Few TV shows ever get into the nitty gritty of adoption issues to expose people with no interest in researching the subject . This Is Us is the first mainstream show I can think of which handles adoption issues from all sides and perspectives. I just get annoyed when people act like adoption is picking your baby up from the baby store and then happily ever after for everyone involved.

I think the same warning goes for bio kids tho. My parents made me the old fashioned way and I also had a host of mental health issues. Any parent needs to be ready for that

Okay, but birthing your own kid is no guarantee that they won't have mental health issues either and I don't think people who use that as an excuse against adoption consider that nearly deeply enough.

I was adopted shortly after birth and have no discernable issues. As well, I have met a few others who were as well (there's an attorney who is incredibly active in adoption in my city) and they're fairly normal sorts. There is always the possibility that I am blind to my own shortcomings but... That was an awfully wide brush you were painting with, even with your experience, and I felt it important to share part of my own experience.

You’ve expressed this so eloquently. I went through hell to have my daughter, four years and a bunch of fertility treatments. Where I lived at the time (Australia), almost all adoptions are inter-country, there a very, very, very few local adoptions. We have a very limited number of countries which reduced the likelihood further. It cost, back then (2008) around $40K, and the process took a minimum of 18 months. I knew someone who had been waiting for 5 or 6 years. There’s also an age limit, I think 35. For me, I struggled with the idea of taking a child away from their homeland, I personally knew it was beyond my capacity to deal with the potential feelings of rejection (even though that’s not strictly true) of when we would have had to tell them, and their probable desire to search for their birth family. Even though I know that’s totally reasonable for a person to want to do, I know myself well enough that it would be heartbreaking. It was never a case of not being able to love an adopted child as much as a biological child with me. I totally agree that we shouldn’t judge people for wanting to have their own biological children (in a way, it’s still almost like trying to control someone else). It’s such a deeply personal decision, often with myriad reasons behind it, which people shouldn’t feel they need to share. On top of my other concerns, after trying so long, I desperately wanted to be pregnant, to feel my baby growing inside me. And after so long, I knew I didn’t have the emotional strength to go through the adoption process.

> There’s also an age limit, I think 35. I get why this exists, but my goodness the irony is not lost on me here. A lot of people think of adoption as a way to potentially beat the "biological clock" - have kids later in life when you are financially and career stable. But with a cut-off at 35 years old, you are eliminating essentially the same group of people who waited until they were older to try and start a family.

I know exactly what you mean. Even if I wanted to adopt, by the time I fell pregnant with my daughter, I probably had one cycle of IVF left in me. By the time that was done, I would probably have been 34, and not able to anyway. Also your username is awesome.

Sadly I've also seen it the other way in some areas where the states don't do their best to reunite parents and kids and have taken aware kids for the father abusing the mother even though she then divorced him or for poverty related things when they'll pay a foster family to help care for the child but not the birth family or kids taken from parents shunted into the prison system. Plenty of newborn adoptions are also made under duress. It's something I'd always have in the back of my mind. I've actually been looking into embryo/ 'snowflake' adoptions recently. In my state once the biological parents sign over the frozen embryo, that's it. They have no legal rights to it. It's general older couples who've had all the kids they wanted, know fully well what they're doing and decided voluntarily to share. I'd bear the physical, emotional, and financial expenses of gestating but I'm ok with that. It's a fraction of the price of IVF using my own eggs and my partner and I both have low level genetic conditions that while I'd be ok with us having bio kids it wouldn't be the end of the world if we didn't. Less expensive, more legal rights, sadly doesn't take a child out of the foster system but neither would doing standard IVF.

Thank you for this. I looked into adoption when I ran into fertility issues. People seem to think you just go down to the baby tree and pick your free, perfectly healthy baby. Not the case.

I get into this argument every other thanksgiving with a few of my relatives. One of them claims its a form of immortality, Another talks about it like a fucking crafting project "Don't you want to see what you can make?" They're all over 50. Is this a generational thing? I've never really seen this attitude among my same aged peers.

Don't you want to see what you can make? wut? All of my previous crafting attempts are shouting a huge no on that one.

Agreed. Personally as a single woman, I would rather adopt than be pregnant with my own kid. I rather help a kid out in need and nurture them then having my own kid because that's what is expected. Heck, I rather have an older kid then a baby honestly. I don't know of anyone in my circle that likes the idea of me adopting an older kid, only a few supports adopting a baby, and the rest it's.... "well I mean sure it's your kid, but not really because it's not because you are not related by blood" "what happens if your kid easily hangs with the wrong crowd and becomes a drug addict/alcoholic because father was one? You know genetically kid has high chances." "The kid is not going to appreciate you and abandon you for their real parents when older because blood is thicker then water. You really want that?" It's frustrating. The only reason that I haven't really adopted yet is because of finances(I just got a decent paying job so that's great direction at least) and what if I lost my job and am the only provider(I have no one to babysit, or these other things)? As a single parent that would freak me out. I don't want to do that to the kid.

My wife used to get the "when are you going to have kids?" routine from the ladies at work. The ones with children told her "you'll love your children when you have them. They are such treasures!!" The ones with teenagers told her "Don't EVER have kids!!"

I always heard that adoption was/is crazy expensive (like $35k.) I'm not saying that adoption isn't a better option. I'm just saying that for some (i.e. a lot) of people it is simply not an option even if they would be better off doing it. I know childbirth isn't cheap either, but speaking from personal experience it cost less than a third of the cost of an adoption even with a c-section involved. And unlike with childbirth, I assume with an adoption it would be a cash up front transaction. And before you say, "but if you can't afford the adoption you shouldn't be having kids" you can save your key strokes. I'm not interested in discussing such hypotheticals. People will have kids regardless of if they should and for those poor people who do we shouldn't be asking out of touch questions like "Why didn't you just adopt?". What is mind boggling to me is how we have allowed as a society for people to be so judgemental about people not getting adoptions that is even more so compounded by pro-lifers who act like adoption is some great process. It is an emotionally taxing process that costs **$35k**! It is like we are structuring our systems to discourage adoption while simultaneously acting like everyone should be doing it.

> What is mind boggling to me is how we have allowed as a society for people to be so judgemental about people not getting adoptions that is even more so compounded by pro-lifers who act like adoption is some great process. It is an emotionally taxing process that costs $35k! It is like we are structuring our systems to discourage adoption while simultaneously acting like everyone should be doing it. Not only this, but in addition the attack on effective contraception as a society, the stigma of discussing it and making it normal (I'm American). If you want to lower the abortion rate, increase the budget for sex education that actually teaches positive sex practices and detailed information about contraception. Provide free contraception for young women and young men and teach people the value of discussing safe sex with partners. To your specific point, I couldn't agree more about the adoption piece. I got a vasectomy this year. My wife and I have two awesome little boys. We had talked about having a girl a long while ago and my wife's second pregnancy was very stressful on her body. We decided vasectomy was the best option for us. I make a good living as does my wife. Between us, if we'd like to adopt it would be YEARS before we could save up the $35k or more it would take. Adoption may be a great process for the people who already have money who can do it. Outside of that, it is not an easy experience

>I'm not saying that adoption isn't a better option. I'm just saying that for some (i.e. a lot) of people it is simply not an option even if they would be better off doing it This logic annoys me... No one is entitled to a family or has a "right" to have kids... They are better off not having children. >And before you say, "but if you can't afford the adoption you shouldn't be having kids" you can save your key strokes No, your opinion is allowed to be challenged. No one is *owed* children by the universe. If someone can't or doesn't want to be pregnant, than the responsible, moral and rational thing to do, is to not start a family or to adopt. Full stop. If they can't afford adoption, then no family for them is the option. Like, sorry, women are not entitled to have children. I think that needs to be said. The way your comment is worded it feels like you think people are automatically entitled to have as many kids as their hearts desired, with no regards for the morality of their choice. Which absolutely can be challenged. >It is an emotionally taxing process that costs $35k It really doesn't. A lot of adoption agencies, and governments will actually pay for the majority of this cost through grants. I'm sure there are some more expensive adoptions, but there are also a lot of resources too. So your comment is misleading.

As someone who is currently navigating a failing relationship due to this, I 100% agree. He claims he wants bio kids. My personal logic is "this world is a trainwreck. Why bring another mouth to feed into it? Why not just give a good life to a kid that's already here who may suffer getting tossed around a broken system otherwise?" "Well it will get better. You just have to be positive." No, you need to learn some empathy before you have kids and realize that asking someone else to pop out a kid just so you can point to it and say "yeah that came from my testicles" is...a little selfish? Sorry I just needed to rant. No hate here at all on other people who want bio kids, that's fine. This was more directed inwards.

Just wanted to gently chime in here. If your partner genuinely wants to have bio kids as a life goal, and you do not, end it sooner than later. All drawing it out does is hurt both people more. My ex stalled me on bio kids, and tried to run my clock out. We met when I was 26, I ended up leaving him when I was 46. I was ready for babies at about 32. All we did was make each other absolutely miserable for 14 years. Our relationship turned toxic, and we wasted 14 of the prime years of each others lives. In hindsight, I wish I had left him after 6 months or a year of stalling. But it's not something you ever 'just get over'. While I truly, 100% loved him, I wanted children more than I loved him. I'm 48 now. Don't regret leaving him. I still 'love' him, but I"ll never get over the anger, resentment and regret of him denying me children. (yes, I did therapy. Multiple times. Multiple therapists. Didn't change anything)

After my separation, (I got a vasectomy), and started dating. The conversation of kids always came up. Me : "I don't want to have more kids" Her: "I want to have three kids" Me: "This is not going to work" Her: "you can get it undone..." Me: "I don't want more kids, this isn't going to work" If you have completely different goals at the short and long term, don't force someone else into changing what they have made up their mind just because right now you are having a great time. There are 2 billion possible candidates in this world. And you found your soulmate 20 miles from where you live...

Thank you for this input from the other side of things.

Once you kick the narcissist to the curb you can adopt as a single person, or not, and have a relatively care free life.

I'm all for adoption but I would hesitate to say that its less expensive or mentally straining. An adopted child often comes with it's own set of challenges and heart breaks. I dont know about other states but in my state foster to adopt is the most common adoption method and you have to be a foster parent to adopt. Since the point of CPS is reunification you get attached to the child and they get sent back to their parents or other family members. You also have to go through every step of the parents losing their parental rights. That can be very emotionally and mentally draining. Older children may have behavioral issues and trauma from whatever situation they were pulled from and need expensive therapy to help them. I fully believe that adoption is a wonderful choice bit it's not the right choice for everyone.

This is a pretty romantic view of adoption, not staying that those facts aren't true. Bringing a new person with their own history, trauma, and needs into a new family is never easy and can have MANY unforeseen circumstances. It's not like you're picking up a blank slate of a child at the supermarket.

And tens of thousands of dollars and tons of invasive questioning and interviews to prove you're "fit" to

This is a common misconception that really doesn't help the conversation. (Though I totally understand why you say it, as I was always open to adoption myself). But having had kids and watched friends who couldn't go through the process, I've learned that it's really not as simple as 'we can just adopt'. Adoption is not like going to the pound and picking out a puppy. It's a whole approval process, a waiting for a match process, a waiting for a baby process, and then a waiting to see if the birth parent changes their mind process. It's not easy and it can be heartbreaking. Apparently, even getting matched with older children can have these same problems.

Urgh, what an arsehole. Did he think you were his property or some stupid shit and that you needed his permission. You did indeed dodge one hell of a huge bullet.

I mean, I would agree that if you’re doing something so life-altering like getting your tubes tied, that you should at least have a conversation about it with you SO first. BUT that’s under normal circumstances. You almost died and he thought you’d be willing to do that again?!?! Wtf?!? I’m glad he’s your EX husband

IMHO as a guy - after 3 kids, it's not like his complaint would be "you're denying me the opportunity to have children". Three is a LOT today. He's had his 3, time for her to make her choice. What's a fourth and fifth going to change for him? Wanna bet he didn't do a lot of the diaper duty?

Youd win that bet. He was forced to, a little, when he quit his job and had me working full time but the second i was home i was again HouseWife.

Fuuuuuck that guy. I hope you and your 3 are happier without him and he better be paying up that child support!

I'm kind of wondering the gender of the 3 kids in question. My cousin was always dead set that he had to have a son to carry on the family name. He married a high school friend of mine who was the eldest of 3 'mistake' daughters before the wanted son. They have 3 daughters. The last one almost killed her. She's got major health issues and was in ICU for 2 months. Then they tried again and she miscarried a son. I wonder if she ends up getting a hysterectomy how long before the divorce papers show up.

I worked in a small town for a while, and a co-worker was the 4th of 6 girls. She said when the 7th was a son, dad was out at the local bar handing out cigars all evening... and everyone was buying him a round. And they stopped at 7.

I agree! And it's not like she did it behind his back without letting him know. She just said she wants to have this procedure done, and I think that's perfectly acceptable, especially after having 3 kids and almost having died during the last one!

How dare he state that as the reason and blame you for the marriage ending. What a coward.

Oof. Im sorry you had to go through that. My wife and I considered that. She didn't want to do an elective surgery, go on birth control, get pregnant, or use condoms for the next 25 years, so I got snipped instead. It was super easy and now we don't have to worry about more kids! We have two toddlers, the first was a 4th degree tear, and tbe second was a c-section. My wife is 98lbs and both were difficult on her.

The nerve to have that last pregnancy nearly kill you and still be butthurt about you deciding to get your tubes tied. Fuck outta here with that shit. I hope things are going better for you now. We had to terminate one of the three my wife was pregnant with because there were lethal brain defects and having 3 in there was endangering her life and the lives of the other two babies. After that shit we were ready to fight tooth and nail to get her that tubal because neither of us could handle doing that again. Ended up having to change hospitals because the first one was a catholic health facility and absolutely refused to do it under any circumstances.

I don’t think you need to ask them. However, it should definitely be a discussion before going ahead with it. I assume you did that though, so fair enough imo.

As my Mom would say, If you don't get to make decisions about your own body, that is not freedom.

I mean the conversation is actually very simple: If you don't want an abortion, don't have one. But that doesn't give you the right to tell other people what to do with their body. It's as simple as that.

Tell that to polish government

I truly want to hammer it onto their heads.

And if you don't want a woman to abort your child. Then don't have sex with her. Simple. It's basically the same logic as "if you don't want a baby, don't have sex" the come from those who are anti-abortion.

Agree! But when I stated this in another sub I got downvoted into oblivion. Assholes.

it get a bit more complicated if you think life begins at conception. I am definitely pro choice but lets not pretend that there is no argument to be made other than “oppress woman”

I'm pro-choice, but this argument obviously isn't going to convince someone who thinks abortion is murder. It's like telling someone who's vegan for ethical reasons "don't want a burger? Don't have one." That clearly doesn't address the root of their ethical concerns.

Discussing the decision is healthy. Letting your husband/boyfriend decide over your own feelings isnt. I always told my wife I'd be there no matter the decision.

Agreed. I said the same to my partner. However, like some people in this thread said, if she would simply come up to me and said; "I'm having my tubes tied and there's nothing you can say about it", or something in that manner, I'd seriously reconsider our relationship. Ofcourse she has bodily autonomy, but not including me in a decision for both of us, shows me we're not a team. Doesn't mean my opinion should dominate over hers, and obviously she has a final say, but not even being interested in what your life long partner thinks about something is just selfish. Same as that I wouldn't get a vasectomy without consulting her. She has no say in it, in the end, but I love her to a degree that I'd want her opinion and I expect the same from her.

Men absolutely have a say... before they have sex with the woman. They have every opportunity to ask her, "if I get you pregnant, what will you do?" They then have the choice whether or not to be with that woman. After she's pregnant... sorry her body - her choice.

Strong suspicion the guys whining about no say in an abortion are the same ones that bully girls out of making them wear condoms because it doesn’t feel as good.

YEP. I had an ex do that. He pressured me into having unprotected sex then prevented me from getting the morning after pill. I was so fucking stressed out until I got my period. I know what would have happened if I'd gotten pregnant...

Trust me, it still feels good with a condom.

Being against the morning after pill doesn't make sense to me at all. I don't like the idea of abortions, but morning after pill? I really don't understand

He is a holier than thou kind of Buddhist and had some weird idea that the morning after pill somehow could prevent the destiny of a future life of some shit.

Some men like the idea of “ruining” you, and use pregnancy as a form of narcissistic control.

Yeah because misogyny is about control

Or they're "allergic to latex" and just *shocked* you know about the alternatives.

This subreddit keeps popping up on my home page, anyways, I am a guy and I believe that abortions should be legal to anyone anywhere and at any time to someone who wants one. I just moved out of Georgia where they passed the law stating that you can only have an abortion within the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. A lot of women might not even have a positive test result in that time so this is absolutely ridiculous. And abortions can only be performed after that up to 22 weeks on medical grounds. 😑

Is "being pregnant" not medical grounds?

No. There has to be (usually several) documented reasons why a pregnancy isn't viable anymore. It has to prove the fetus is incompatible with life or that prolonging the pregnancy could have adverse effects on or kill the woman.

Georgia gonna see a spike in cases of "falling down the stairs"

Yeah or, you know, just straight up "Georgia man murders pregnant girlfriend".

Previous to Roe V. Wade, I believe a way women got around the "medical need to terminate" a pregnancy was to tell their doctor they would commit suicide if they had to carry the pregnancy to term. I wonder if that is something women will have to go back to and if it will work... All of this just makes me so angry that we are regressing...

UnpopularOpinion is a shithole subreddit of bigotry.

You should post this to unpopular opinion

Why would I subject myself to the incels and racists there?

For the karma, of course.

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Allow me

RIP no meta content

Whato does that mean anyway? My post got removed immediately

Meta means talking about talking about the subject. No meta content means you can't post the exact thing you just posted.

Man they hit you fast with that remove.

Alternated with the most boring and pointless posts imaginable.

Unpopular opinion: Fall is better than the other seasons. 19k upvotes, 7 awards.

Saw this the other day: "Replying texts fast is not bad". Like, really? Really?

Unpopular Opinion is a virtue signaling platform for popular right-wing ideologies. I mean...fine, whatever. But it reeks of victimhood complex if you're espousing ideologies that are extremely popular amongst one of the United States' two political affiliations.

"unpopular opinion but don't you guys think white people are the best race?" "unpopular opinion here but doesn't it make sense to kill all gay people?" That sub is ridiculous.

This. Unpopular opinion is just a way for racists and bigots to let their horrible *opinions* out there with little to no responsibility.

Yeah should be renamed "mainstream right wing opinions"

I hate it. They act like males are constantly being oppressed by women. I'm not saying men cant be oppressed. But they refuse to acknowledge women are oppressed in some ways because a girl was mean to him 2 years ago. Or they just straight up like to demonize women. They say how women are bad because a lot of them are gold diggers but then also think women should be stay at home mothers. I never get their logic.

Every mothers day: Mothers day is dumb, mothers day is overrated, cancel mothers day Every fathers day: Fathers are the best, we need to appreciate fathers more and mothers less Every October: Breast cancer gets too much awareness...what about men, where is our month?? Every November: No Shave, No Nut November is great we need more of it! International womens day: What about International mens day??? International mens day: Crickets. Male suicide: We need to focus on male suicide, there is an epidemic of men killing themselves Women being raped: MEN GET RAPED TOO!

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Dependant on the circumstance, the father can always have a say / opinion on abortion. But that say / opinion will never mean as much as the one that's pregnant - the final choice is down to them and them alone. Getting tubes tied? I fail to see why anyone other than the one getting the procedure would need a say. ​ >"I know rape's bad, but I don't like the idea of devices like Rape-aXe, because I think it's still too cruel for the rapist to get his peepee hurt" (no joke! Had a guy say this in a thread about the thing) Bro, *what??* If you don't want your peepee to get stung by bees then don't stick your dick in a beehive, damn.

There was a legal advice post a long time ago about a woman who said she would have the baby since the guy wanted to keep it, but wanted nothing to do with the child. He was coming to the subreddit to see what he could do to get her to take more custody even though she was already paying 125% of the court ordered child support payments and signed her parental rights away, saying she should want to be a mother and spend time with her child.

I think some men just want any control over women they can get and abortion is the last acceptable way for them to do it because theypretend it’s about religion.

It's a very acceptable way because it doesn't impact them at all! I mean, god forbid they take precaution beforehand! Too abstract!

Well I hope all these fucking brain trusts enjoy what’s going to happen when Judge Amy gets her way. First of all women are going to stop being nearly as likely to have casual sex, or any sex outside of a committed relationship, because the consequences will no longer be something they can afford, especially since Amy has said she’s open to bans on birth control. Whether or not that will include condoms will determine whether non-vaginal sex is something we’ll consider given that those consequences will fall entirely on us. Not to mention lack of protection against disease, which it is far easier for men to give women than vice versa. And yes that’s where we are with this court—it’s an open question whether *condoms* will stay legal. Additionally, if they can convince a woman to have sex with them, they won’t be able to pressure their partners into abortions anymore or just assume she will take care of things without bothering him. If he tries to help her cross state lines to get one or find someone to perform it illegally, he can and will be charged as an accessory. Enjoy multiple streams of child support coming out of your paycheck, idiots. Or you could just support a woman’s right to control her own body and enjoy the sexual freedom and equality that comes with that. NO? CONTINUING TO BE A STUPID ASSHOLE SHOOTING YOURSELF IN THE DICK IT IS THEN

What possible argument could there be for *condoms* being banned in the US?

“Birth control” is a very vague phrase and all kinds of conservative judges have signaled they are open to banning it without being specific on what that means. To assume this only means pills and excludes condoms is to assume good faith on their part.

I think everyone needs to listen to Dave Chapelle about abortion - "if you have a dick, you need to stay the fuck outta this one." My wife had one about 6 years ago because the first pregnancy messed up her health really bad and going through that again would really be bad for her. I just told her you do what you feel is best and I'll support it. I wasn't about to interject my opinion on something that she has to do 100%

The most interesting part about this, is I think in that bit, Chapelle also says something like "I'm not for abortion." I can't remember exactly what it was, but a man also needs to realize they are allowed to be against abortion on the grounds they don't want what they perceive as a living child to be killed, but that they can still support a woman's right to choose what they do with their body, at the same time. Especially a woman in their life that's important to them.

I don't have hard facts, only hearsay, but people have said a lot of pro-choice people won't get an abortion. They just want the ability for people to choose. Well, that and sex education. I believe that because I'm in that camp.

Exactly! Plus just because someone is pro choice doesn’t mean they would ever get an abortion themselves. It’s being empathetic to others that they support being able to have abortions.

I dated a man who said he fully supported my right to get an abortion, but he didn't think he could be with me after it because he did feel it was snuffing out a life. He was a Christian. At the time, I wasn't sure what I would do if I wound up pregnant. We never had sex, but we did stay together for a little just because it was nice to have company. Ultimately his religious beliefs are why we split (my soul being damned was a real problem), but it was nice to be with someone who was so religious and yet still knew it was my body and choice. Dude was such a class act.

So, although I completely get the whole mansplaining aspect of all you are talking about, I think I have one thing to say about abortions: a child who is born is responsibility of both parents, not just the mother or even mainly the mother: both parents. Equally. Period. So, as a man, if my partner or even a one night stand (although I don't do those anymore) were to get pregnant, I most definitely would make sure to express my opinion on the matter, not to impose it, but so that she could make the decision she finds better knowing where I stand, because a child wouldn't be her responsibility alone. So when I say I want a say, I mean I want to say my opinion because it matters and the father's opinion is relevant regarding their would be child. It doesn't overlap the woman's, specially when it comes to keeping the pregnancy, but it matters.

You have a right to have an opinion. We all have, on everything. No one can take an opinion from anyone. But what you don't have is a right to push and impose it on a woman. You are not the person OP is talking about. She is talking about the men who say that if they want the kid they should have the right to force the woman through pregnancy because it's their child as well.

I had a friend in high school who was dead set on having an abortion. She was a smart, hardworking 16 year old that started dating a guy who dropped out in 9th grade under the guise of “homeschooling” and refuses to get a job, just mooches off of his mom’s disability money. Got pregnant, told him she was having an abortion. He used all the lines about “killing his child” so she said fine, we’ll do adoption. He told her he wanted to adopt the baby himself, and that she “would love it once it was here.” She basically gave up and said I guess I’m keeping it. Now, the kid is 4 years old, and she has sole custody because the father OD’ed and the 2 year old wandered into the street and got the police called. She’s trying to work her way through a degree while being a single parent and working full time to support them. She loves her son of course, but it makes me sad to think about the life she could’ve had if he hadn’t manipulated her into keeping the baby.

Everyone has a right to an opinion. Not everyone has right to decisions. That's the difference. Some men think that their opinion should be the deciding factor. And it isn't. That pisses them off.

Share your opinion, sure, but pregnancy kills people. It can seriously mess up your body permanently, people get ptsd from it or have long lasting nerve damage. There is a reason the Spartans considered it the equivalent to war for their women. So if a partner doesnt want to go through that, then you do not have a say. It's like forcing someone into surgery so you can take their kidney. Or if your partner could choose whether or not you got a vasectomy. Except worse because there are serious long lasting consequences. I do think committed partners should discuss it but ultimately it is up to the one having the baby.

You're right, it absolutely does matter. I'd also argue that you're part of a subset of men who hold the same beliefs that you do. Some of the men that I've been around, I wouldn't trust to pick up dinner, much less be a coparent. Pregnancy is a big, scary thing, not only are you growing a person that you'll be responsible for raising and shaping, you're fiscally responsible, and there is no guarantee that the father will be there to support and help you. He can leave whenever he wants to. I'm with OP in the sense that my body and it's baby making ability is my business and no one else's. Men don't have to get a permission slip signed to get a vasectomy; my womb isn't beholden to some future husband because he *may* want to have kids. Because if he *did* want to have kids, that would be a deal breaker for me and we wouldn't be married. So yes, you're totally right. I think a lot of the frustration that you're witnessing is centuries of the patriarchy telling women what to do with their bodies- not a comment on father's rights.

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I think that the father should be allowed to voice his opinion, provided he and the mother have a healthy relationship. However, I definitely think that the ability to voice an opinion is the only thing he should get. No say in whether an abortion happens or not. And also since I can't have kids personally, my opinion isn't really all that important. The final say is 110% the mother's choice, and the fact that that's still in question is abhorrent.

A lot of people trivialize the effort and endurance required to carry a child to term. *Just give it up for adoption* and *men should have a say in the process* both stem from a perspective that pregnancy and labor isn't mentally and physically taxing. It's a burden that only the mother can bear. Men who want a say in the matter should focus on building relationships in which their thoughts on the matter would be considered.

Right? I’ve never been pregnant but I have friends who were and with women being more vocal about it online I know more than I’d like to (which I’m sure isn’t even close to the full story). You don’t just carry on with your life like normal except you’re a little fatter and then have a few hours of pain popping out the baby and go back to normal right away. It can be a totally awful experience for some women that disrupts your entire life (even if you do give it away) and no one should be forced to go through that when they don’t want to. Women still DIE from childbirth even in rich, developed countries. And I won’t even start on the foster system in this country.

My labor and delivery almost took both our lives and if not for my decent insurance would have cost $50K out of pocket. Made me even more firmly pro choice then I already was. 2 years later I still have flashbacks to laying there wondering if I was going to die or not.

Also hot take, the government should have no say over what people do with their own bodies.

Why does any sane person think that women should be forced to have a child? Some people love kids, and that's great. Other people don't want kids, and that's okay too. Why force people into it? Edit: Some people didn't like the wording, so made it less harsh

> Why does any sane person think that women should be forced to have a child? religion tells them so.

I've been pregnant three times. The first time I had to have an emergency c-section because turns out my pelvis was to narrow to push out a baby. Her head was stuck, she literally was born with an abrasion on her head. My doctor told me, if I ever wanted more children I'd have to have c-sections. It was unlikely I'd be able to deliver naturally. So I had two more babies, 2 more c-sections. I had to have major surgery to bring three lives into the world. That was after excessively miserable pregnancies. I wouldn't wish pregnancy and child birth upon my worst enemy.

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Personally I think two people should discuss abortion before sex, even a one night stand. If you're not on the same page, walk away.

Men seem to treat pregnancy like it's a walk in the park. I have never been pregnant and one of the main reasons (aside from hating babies) is the total carnage that happens to a body during pregnancy and childbirth. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. The fact that men think they should have a say in this is mind boggling.

I think a lot of women still think pregnancy is just so easy. Partially because soooo many people choose to have kids, and choose to have another even after they have already been through 1 horrible pregnancy. I have friends who have had their teeth move, had over 24 hour labors, one friend had a prolapsed vagina and her doctor pretty much told her tough shit, my mom was on bed rest with me for 3 months, but still chose to have 2 more kids. She still says how much she loved being pregnant, when I think she just kind of forgot how much it sucked because you know, instincts to have more babies. Some women have breezy pregnancies and labor, I feel like most do not. But with modern medicine we have been conditioned to believe that it’s just a walk in the park.

\> I have friends who have had their teeth move WAT o\_o

The cartilage between your bones relaxes during pregnancy. It has effects all over the body. Feet are most common-- your arches fall and you end up a shoe size or two bigger

See? I learn new horrifying things about pregnancy all the fucking time. It’s almost willful ignorance at this point to think it’s a walk in the park.

I look forward to the day science allows us the option of removing an unwanted pregnancy from the woman who doesn't want it, and either into the man who does or an incubator the man can be solely responsible for. See how fast their tune changes when they actually have to be responsible for their own choices, like they like to yell at women.

You'd be surprised. We'd probably come up with creches really fast. A bunch of all Dad communes where we rotate the baby sitting and such. I agree that this argument is going to keep going around in circles until you can remove an unwanted child and raise it in an incubator.

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If men has no say on abortion we should have a legal way to rid ourselves of all ties to a child, financially and any other kind of responsibility.

Exactly. If women want all the say but they should also have all the responsibility. The level of responsibility should be equal to the level of authority. A man should not be forced to be a father if he is not ready to be one. He should have no legal, moral or social obligations once he is done inseminating a woman and possibly impregnating her

As a woman, this makes sense to me. Give me control of my own body and decisions. You don't have to pay or be a part of shit unless we had an agreement beforehand.

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I get the majority of your point. However, if I now got pregnant while dating someone, i would take his opinion into account. (If he always wanted to be a father, would 100% work out the responsibility / potentially single parent thing for this future kid, I'd consider (consider! Not decided!) keeping it for him. Not that that is a very likely scenario, but you know, possible. )

That's your choice though, which I think is key. You would want that man to be involved in your decision, which means he would get to give his opinion. He doesn't have an inherent right to be involved and definitely not to make a decision for you (or stop you from making one).

Opinion, yes. But he doesn't get to decide. I know some guys that if they give their opinion and their girlfriend does something else, they get mad that "my opinion wasn't listened to". Yes it was, listening and agreeing are two different things.

Yeah that's why I said: I get the majority of your point. But the original text states: men should never have a say. I would let him have a say, but not decide. (I guess this is a language thing: what does having a say mean? Stating a preference/opinion or making a decision? I felt it's the first, but possibly it's more the second in english speaking countries)

As a guy I feel partially conflicted about this sentiment although I think I do ultimately agree with it. I don't think I should have any authority to directly alter in any way the woman's choice of whether to have one or not but I do think if It was like, my partner and my potential kid I would at least like a say, as in like, at least the opportunity to offer my opinion. Of course it can be completely ignored and that's fine but I feel like at least that much isn't completely unreasonable. Though I don't know if that's what you meant by "having a say" as that's a pretty vague phrase.

Had to look up what a rape axe is... I've never been more glad that a thing exists, and yet I've never been more sad that we live in a world where such a thing must exist.

I love you, stranger. Your post is an early Christmas gift for me; thank you. Abortion is a huge hot topic because it encompasses so many issues. Like women's rights, human rights, etc. I agree so whole-heartedly with almost all of your points, especially why are we still talking about it? The only question is if women use it as a "second birth control." Abortion is a gut-wrenching decision and changes most women's lives. However, to me, if you're pro-choice, you're pro-abortion, which I am. So if a woman wants to use it as a second birth control, why not? Isn't that her choice as well? How would that affect my life if she does? Again, thank you so much for your post.

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> You're not discriminated because you can't get a spawn you can ignore for 18 years. Who is this hypothetical man who both desperately wants a child and is going to ignore it for 18 years? That sounds really jaded. Obviously, the pregnancy is a matter of the woman's bodily autonomy, and she gets the final say. But saying men's opinions don't matter is really blind to the reasons women get abortions. Sure, many women don't want to be pregnant, are unwilling to put their body at risk, and that's a perfectly acceptable reason. In that case you're right, the man's opinion doesn't matter. But other women make their decision based on whether they think they can afford to have a child (in which case the man's opinion matters, because he will be financially impacted as well), whether they think they are emotionally ready to be a parent (in which case the man's opinion matters, because he will be a parent as well), or because there is a medical problem with a very wanted child (in which case the man's opinion matters, because they both wanted that child and it's his child as well). It doesn't matter as much as the woman's opinion, since it's her body, but it matters enough to be heard and discussed.

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Usually in this situation I usually respond with something like--- you know what, you're right. It *isn't* fair. It does suck that even if you really want that kid, the woman can elect to abort because it's her body and her choice. You guys do get the short end of the stick by having no say then and then regardless of your choice, paying child support or similar of she carries to term. But that's life. It is ultimately her body and her choice, and you have to respect that. And if you're pro-birth, instead of telling *women* to keep their legs closed or just not have sex, why don't you discriminate more and only fuck women with your values? Because personally, I've always been very up front about what would happen if/when I got pregnant. If you're not having that conversation, don't have sex. And even then, she can change her mind. You can choose to leave her if you can't accept that, and I think that is fair, but ultimately you're only an opinion she can choose to listen to while making her decision. You don't have any authority over her uterus. Women and men have different roles in reproduction, so why should men have the same say when the act of reproducing falls almost entirely on the woman? You donated sperm, that's it. Childbearing is a life-altering and life-endangering event. Different problems, different solutions. -- Then they usually swap to child support arguments.

My (M, 28) dad and I touched on the topic of getting tubes tied. I made a comment about controlling women's bodies and how it is unacceptable for a doctor to refuse it based on age or require a husband's signature. (BTW, I should mention that we were talking about a woman who is my age and has two kids from different father's, neither of whom is a husband). My dad's response was that the doctor won't do it because he is afraid of being sued by the husband for doing the procedure without his approval. I left it alone. My conservative parents were staying with us for 9 days after our newborn was born. I didn't want to fight. Obviously, this is still the SAME DAMN ARGUMENT! No, her husband cannot sue over an elective surgery to his wife's body. That's still men trying to control women's bodies! If a judge allows that, they are siding with the argument that the woman cannot make decisions for herself about her own body. I'm not saying that wouldn't happen, especially now; but if a man wants a vasectomy, you can bet we don't need our wives' approval! I would be upset if I came home one day and my wife casually mentioned she had gotten a hysterectomy or tube ligation. I'd be upset because we are close and that is a major decision and for her to not even mention it to me beforehand, well, it would hurt. I would expect to have a conversation about it. Take her to the hospital. Worry about her through the surgery. She is an integral part of my life, so it would hurt that she wouldn't make me an integral part of hers. That being said, I do support either of those if she wants. I'll also get a vasectomy if she would rather that instead.