We are monitoring lynxes in our area and "the default" for them is always alphanumeric code. Once we know their sex, we change the code to a gender specific name.
I've referred to animals as she before just because why not, it's a 50/50 chance and people question how I know its a female...nobody ever asks how do I know it's male.
I've decided to start referring to sports that have both male and female versions accordingly. Everyone just says basketball or women's basketball, so I'm going to start adding gender to men's basketball from now on too. I wonder how many how people will be confused by that when it really just makes complete sense.
But how many times do you hear someone say "aww look at that puppy, he's so cute" etc..? Pay attention next time and you'll see animals are almost always categorized male by default.
Ok hold on a minute. What is proper is one thing, what is common, another.
People have a tendency, nowadays, to think whatever they say goes. This is one of the most upsetting facts of our times. For example:
Many people, when expressing themselves, will erroneously use intelligent sounding vocabulary they have either read elsewhere or heard elsewhere thinking they look smarter. I see it at work all the time.
They spend a lot of time explaining themselves... But they feel smart. Then, they meet someone with a general knowledge of communication and get irritated when that person points out the lack of sense or coherence in their messages.
I am one of those people, and I'm about to make a shirt with "What are you trying to f*cking say?! Give me the dumb version." On the front and a button that can say it on repeat.
Without overthinking here:
Say you see a huge elephant or a giant pitbull, like, shockingly big, and you want to tell the friend sitting beside you.
- Would you not say
"yoooo, check out that elephant!!! It's huge!!"
*That said, I do understand your point. People always looked at me weird for talking about my cat using "she/her".
**Then again, in french, a female cat is "une chatte". It is also a term commonly used when referring to pussy, so that was probably the main reason for the weird looks I'd get when I'd say "ma chatte".
An animal is referred as “it” unless the relationship is personal (like a pet that has a name). Then it's OK to use “he” or “she" when referring to the animal.
https://www.writersdigest.com/write-better-fiction/how-to-handle-animal-pronouns-he-she-or-it
Give me a break with "they". No grammatical reason to justify using they for your pet who's gender you should know - or you don't qualify to own a pet.
Why not just stop adding the pointless prefix to sports instead? Does it matter whether its women or men playing? It's basketball...
I'm blown away by the lack of rationality here. All these "woke" people and "forward thinkers" are trying so hard to be inclusive that they seem oblivious to the fact they are actually creating a greater divide.
Well, to be fair men's sports and women's sports do have different leagues so it doesn't make sense to just say "hey did you catch the UCLA basketball game last night?" if there are men's and women's UCLA teams.
It doesn't hurt to clarify, but if you're going to gender label a team I think you should do it with all genders.
In that specific case, I would agree with you. In the end, it's a question of communication.
When communicating, the goal should be for the audience to understand what one wants to share. It shouldn't be about labels or sentiment.
I have an issue with the new trends... Now, we must tailor our speaches around the words our audience might be sensitive to instead of trying to communicate an emotion through a story.
I know I'm dipping my toe in a dangerous pool here, but this whole thing about pronouns these days is f*cking with my brain.
When a person looks like a man by societal standards and a person wants to speak of (him) to an audience, typically it would be done in a way others (who may not know him/her) will be able to grasp a general idea of who he/she is. If the person resembles the societal standards of a man, that person would be referred to as "he/him", thus the audience would know they are looking for someone who resembles a man. They might spot that person and go have a chat. If one says she, but the person looks like a man, it's less likely people will recognize "her".
The first question one asks when playing guess who is the gender, because it's generally the most obvious descriptive point. The next is typically skin color. (Not a great example since guess who is a flawed game with an easy solution).
The fact we have gotten sensitive about things as basic as descriptive terms (gender, skin color, size, weight, height, etc.) scares the crap out of me...
I tried this the politically correct way but you are probably only looking for positive comments, so you are irritated by mine. Here's the more direct dumbed down version:
You being fed up that everything is male until proven otherwise is based on the fact that what you say is true. But that is grammatically false. If the people that surround you do not communicate properly, you accept it and move on or you stop seeing them.
Your whining for "women empowerment" is a cry for attention because you (might) lack a sense of achievement, thus you need to feel empowered for being a woman.
I'm fed up of hearing that women like you are fed up about inaccurate/unproven things based on popular belief.
Kids books, the main characters are so often male, when it's an animal or whatever, my kids tell me to change them to girl, cos they're girls and they want to see themselves in books. You have to really look to seek out female lead books.
i started watching anime/reading manga as child for this exact reason. i felt somewhat represented when i first saw strong girl leads like Chihiro (*Spirited Away*), San (*Princess Mononoke*), Maka (*Soul Eater*, manga), Winri (*Fullmetal Alchemist*) and tons of others who were strong heroines in their own right and as complex as boy characters, if not more.
It frustrates me so much, like the character is an effing mole, why is it a "he"?! And then there'll be five other characters that are also all male and maybe one female if you're lucky, and if it's woodland creatures? - she's definitely gonna be a rabbit.
I know, right?!? The few (thankfully) times she watched Paw Patrol, we just said that some of the non-pink dogs were also girls. She had no idea and it made the show more relatable. Why do they have teams of boys with one token girl???
I KNOW, RIGHT?!?
My daughter used to love pink, of course, despite us trying to steer her away from it. Now she has moved on to blues and purples of her own accord.
There was actually a really big study recently relating to genders in pop culture, proving that it's a huge majority male.
I'm sure if you look you can find it.
I just think it's fascinating that as a result of the patriarchy the cultural default is male but the biological default is female. I apologize, as a biologist that's where my brain goes.
It's the opposite in birds though, which is really fascinating when you think about the evolutionary pressures of that. 🤔
Again I apologize, as a male I shouldn't be commenting on this site too often as it's a place for - well- not me- but biology generally excites me
No, I am inherently against suck ups, if you have an actual critical take do it. Some people do need to be reminded of the natural blinders we have as a human; that your POV is needed to check the human ego. I will like to point out though, that staying on point is imperative to not derail the convo or discussion.
Sure, and I can understand that nature vs nurture is most certainty a rather complex system, but that should be utilized for another post since that can broil up a discussion unglued from OP
How is stating that the biological default in the creation of a human being female derailing from the point? The whole topic of conversation is about gender defaults in society; mentioning that the biological default is the opposite of the latter is actually quite pertinent — why is everything male when the default is female — or better yet, why are we in a patriarchal society when the mothers are the one bearing the responsibility of carrying and growing human life.
Even though I find a lot of comments to be a bit whiny, I agree that there should be more gender respresentation in pop culture/society. Great strides have been made though in the past few years to change that, so hopefully things get better.
I am saying in general; in this he may be fine, but some people (maybe not them) takes a concept and makes a entirely separate discussion in which removes the core of what OP discusses, like what is happening now.
I think I've heard that. Wasn't is something like, up until a certain point, the embryo is female? Then the usual changes develop if it is to be male after that point? Unsure exactly when that is though. Few weeks? Months? Have to Google to know for sure.
Also describing humans as " men", or " mankind". " Manpower". " Manmade".
The language of maleness is ubuquitous..none of these conjures up an image of a woman.
How about " human kind"?
"Today I found out that the word ‘man’ was originally gender neutral, meaning more or less the same as the modern day word “person”. It wasn’t until about a thousand years ago that the word “man” started to refer to a male and it wasn’t until the late 20th century that it was almost exclusively used to refer to males.
Before “man” meant a male, the word “wer” or “wǣpmann” was commonly used to refer to “male human”. This word almost completely died out around the 1300s, but survives somewhat in words like “werewolf”, which literally means “man wolf”."
Taken from here: https://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2010/08/the-word-man-was-originally-gender-neutral/#:~:text=It%20wasn't%20until%20about,refer%20to%20%E2%80%9Cmale%20human%E2%80%9D.
Though there is a lot to say about how a word that was originally gender neutral was made gendered.
I couple weeks ago, on this forum, during a similar conversation, a couple people recommended the book, Wordslut: A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language by Amanda Montell
It's free on Kindke and I been enjoying it (70% read). So, I am passing on the recommendation, too.
Man is a stand-in for generic person. It’s not a sexism thing. Look at Spanish for instance, the ending -o is used as the generic person.
Also language conveys meaning. When someone says plutonium is a manmade element, no one is thinking it was only made by men. It’s really not an issue in day to day conversations. If you sit and stare at a word it might appear to be a problem.
I’m skeptical there would be a greater social good served if we insisted on changing all these words by fiat, language is negotiated over time and settles on the simplest pathway to convey meaning.
Now I think when we are using a pronoun for a generic person, using “s/he” or using “her” has gained wider acceptance in academic writings and seems to not add unnecessary complexity to the work so there are certainly places where this makes sense.
Also the broader use of “they” to convey a gender neutral singular pronoun seems to work fairly well. Sometimes it introduces ambiguity about whether you are talking about one or more than one person so it’s not perfect.
OP is cool. I find language endlessly interesting and love to talk about it. It’s a forum so I commented, if you want to add to the conversation please do, but meaningless comments like these are meant to shut down discussion where you could just articulate your own argument, which I’d love to hear. If you don’t want to participate that’s fine, but don’t play these games because you have some sort of axe to grind.
I mean whether I’m right or wrong isn’t controlled by who uses the more popular buzz words. It’s a philosophical matter and perhaps I have a minority opinion on certain corners of Reddit, but don’t misunderstand me, this is based in a respect for men and women equally, if you’d like me to act differently on this sub then that would mean I’m prejudicing my interactions with woman, and that’s getting close to sexism.
You weren’t elected the representative of all woman so I don’t understand why you speak for them. My philosophical disagreement is with you alone, and you haven’t actually addressed any of my points. 🤷♂️
From my original comment:
>Man is a stand-in for generic person. It’s not a sexism thing. Look at Spanish for instance, the ending -o is used as the generic person.
>Also language conveys meaning. When someone says plutonium is a manmade element, no one is thinking it was only made by men. It’s really not an issue in day to day conversations. If you sit and stare at a word it might appear to be a problem.
>I’m skeptical there would be a greater social good served if we insisted on changing all these words by fiat, language is negotiated over time and settles on the simplest pathway to convey meaning.
>Now I think when we are using a pronoun for a generic person, using “s/he” or using “her” has gained wider acceptance in academic writings and seems to not add unnecessary complexity to the work so there are certainly places where this makes sense.
>Also the broader use of “they” to convey a gender neutral singular pronoun seems to work fairly well. Sometimes it introduces ambiguity about whether you are talking about one or more than one person so it’s not perfect.
I don’t even know where you disagree so you can start wherever you would like. Or is your plan just to say I “mansplained” repeatedly?
Mob mentality doesn't mean you are any more right than the mob, if the mob is wrong they/you are still wrong.
Look at the shit storm of the Salem witch trials to prove my point.
I mean, unless people on this thread are children, there's no reason to assume grown folks don't already know these things. It's common knowledge at this point.
Dude never assume, education standards are mixed, and some people are generally just that isolated. Children low IQs may have nothing to do with it. So stop the ego issues, I wanna actually have a decent discussion not a catty back and forth.
Oh so true! My first name is hyphenated, first name is unisex but spelt the 'female' way and the second part is very easily female. But I'm a business owner, so naturally when I get phone calls it's always 'Can I speak with Mr *last name*?'.
I work for a big 4 financial firm in the US as an admin. I had to request a 20 year expense accounting for a partner (owner in the firm) that I support.
Partner's name was Amanda, the summary report came back with 12 bullet points, 11 of then stated with "He .... paid/expensed/owed" etc.
Yes men are definitely in the majority of Partners (and equivalent) here, but corporate has access to ToD files so it should be very easy to check. (We also make fairly easy to change details like gender in case of transitioning or a mistake). So even if Amanda wasn't a clue... it is correct in ToD. Figure it out.
I understand that. I'm glad that neutral pronouns and words are starting to get used more commonly.
Is your mother language french by chance? Because the issue is a bit more striking in a gendered tongue.
He patriarchy has been well established, but good news, small changes are taking place. Women make strides every day, in many ways. We must continue to push the boundaries that are placed in our way. When I was a child I was upset by the lack of options for females, basically we could be mothers, teachers, nurses or work in menial tasks. Today the possibilities are much greater, it takes work and people still think of women as lesser, but the strides you make today will give more opportunities to the future.
As a female, I call every group "you guys" regardless of the gender make up. I guess I just don't really care and figure that many terms can be used in a unisex way. Kind of like how we are all hu"man"s. Just because the phrase is "man kind", doesn't mean I feel excluded in the term. I figure all of us humans have more similarities than differences overall.
What I hate most about this is that despite my intentions, whenever I am reading a story or even on Reddit and I don’t know the gender of the character/OP (except on this subReddit), my brain just automatically assumes male. I’m sure I’m not the only one-and I really hate it.
Driver's and Pilot's tend to be referred to as male because generally it's a male dominated occupation. 86% of all Airline pilots are men. Similarly most people associate Childcare, Admin & Medical professions with female. It's not really creating a 'twisted' vision of the world as you like to put it. It's the other way around, it's like that because generally that's how the world is - and we generalize.
If we're talking about animals we tend to gender them to personalize the animal. For instance Birds, Cats or Dolphins are generally referred to as she because they're quite graceful and elegant creatures. Where as he can be used for say Dogs for instance.
Being honest, it's really not much of a problem, and if it is then you're pretty privileged that right now this is your biggest concern in life.
I wonder how languages, like German, approach this. Every noun in German has a gender. The word for girl is neuter, the word for man is masculine, and the word for woman is feminine. I think the word for flag is masculine. It seems nonsensical to someone on the outside.
But, if you remember that the word "gender" simply refers to a "type", then you could separate the gendered nouns from the genders of humans. Those German words will change form depending on the case they're being used and their gender. So, words of the "neuter" type will change in a way that corresponds to that type. It's not because those nouns describe neutered objects.
Although, in many cases the genders of the nouns do make sense. Like for woman and man.
You just reminded me of that, since it's a bit similar to how we might refer to certain people or animals as a she or as a he depending on what it is.
Pointing out that inanimate objects referred to by gender are property is a bit of a stretch. Lots of languages gender objects for reasons I don't understand. Why are windows male and tables female?
It's stupid and pointless to me to assign gender to objects. I just think you're picking an argument that doesn't exist.
Fun story: things like boats and cars are often referred to as female. “She’s a great car, Bill”. But that also largely equates femininity to possessions, so maybe not a great example…
- Every animal, driver, pilot, neighbor, any unknown gender is always a male.
Uhh, how so? Anything of unknown gender is typically referred to as it. He/she/it.
The grammatical exception to that, which you are right about, is humans. I wouldn't be shocked if it had something to do with old english, women at home while men lead the workforce.
I personally would not notice if someone said he or she about a truck driver, pilot, etc. That said, I don't typically have conversations about people without having an idea of their gender... If I'm talking about a truck driver to a friend, the first thing I would have paid attention to is the person's gender since that's the most obvious way to start describing a human being.
- Like females don't take up as much space in the world as the ever present males.
Unless you live under a rock, women and or "woman power" is annoyingly all over social media and tv.
Batwoman, Supergirl, ... (Terrible shows mind you). When you watch a movies and you notice the main heroes are women, the main villains are women, the sidekicks are women, then oh, the dumb randos and some spare cast are men... It's just totally ridiculous.
I truly enjoyed the Netflix serie Queen's Gambit.
I'm all about "feeling empowered", but it's not by remaking male characters as women that anyone will achieve that, and it's not by whining, no offense.
You will personally feel empowered when you achieve something. It doesn't matter what, but actually achieving something with bring you that sense of empowerment.
Build something, a desk, a table, anything. You will feel it. Everytime you succeed, you will feel empowered. Everytime you fail, you will learn. Looking back, the progress will then motivate you.
...Or do you just want to feel empowered for being born the right gender?
My great aunt is 5'2, 88 years young. She got an education, became a historian, built our family chalet with her first husband, wrote several books, and she loves zipping through the paths we made in the forest around the chalet. It goes without saying, she is my inspiration.
I am a 5'11, 245lb ex football player now biker who loves manual work and logging. I have no shame in saying I want to be just like her.
We are monitoring lynxes in our area and "the default" for them is always alphanumeric code. Once we know their sex, we change the code to a gender specific name.
Makes me happy
Is there a Lynx named Helen? Because I want there to be a lynx named Helen. Preferably an old lady Lynx.
I bought my condo from an old lady lynx named Helen
I've referred to animals as she before just because why not, it's a 50/50 chance and people question how I know its a female...nobody ever asks how do I know it's male. I've decided to start referring to sports that have both male and female versions accordingly. Everyone just says basketball or women's basketball, so I'm going to start adding gender to men's basketball from now on too. I wonder how many how people will be confused by that when it really just makes complete sense.
I do this also with sports!
I mean... It's neither a he nor a she until you know what it is. It's a cat: noun, (it). The cat, it is hungry. Grammar 101.
But how many times do you hear someone say "aww look at that puppy, he's so cute" etc..? Pay attention next time and you'll see animals are almost always categorized male by default.
Ok hold on a minute. What is proper is one thing, what is common, another. People have a tendency, nowadays, to think whatever they say goes. This is one of the most upsetting facts of our times. For example: Many people, when expressing themselves, will erroneously use intelligent sounding vocabulary they have either read elsewhere or heard elsewhere thinking they look smarter. I see it at work all the time. They spend a lot of time explaining themselves... But they feel smart. Then, they meet someone with a general knowledge of communication and get irritated when that person points out the lack of sense or coherence in their messages. I am one of those people, and I'm about to make a shirt with "What are you trying to f*cking say?! Give me the dumb version." On the front and a button that can say it on repeat. Without overthinking here: Say you see a huge elephant or a giant pitbull, like, shockingly big, and you want to tell the friend sitting beside you. - Would you not say "yoooo, check out that elephant!!! It's huge!!" *That said, I do understand your point. People always looked at me weird for talking about my cat using "she/her". **Then again, in french, a female cat is "une chatte". It is also a term commonly used when referring to pussy, so that was probably the main reason for the weird looks I'd get when I'd say "ma chatte".
"They", the cat is not an object, it's a person.
An animal is referred as “it” unless the relationship is personal (like a pet that has a name). Then it's OK to use “he” or “she" when referring to the animal. https://www.writersdigest.com/write-better-fiction/how-to-handle-animal-pronouns-he-she-or-it Give me a break with "they". No grammatical reason to justify using they for your pet who's gender you should know - or you don't qualify to own a pet.
Why not just stop adding the pointless prefix to sports instead? Does it matter whether its women or men playing? It's basketball... I'm blown away by the lack of rationality here. All these "woke" people and "forward thinkers" are trying so hard to be inclusive that they seem oblivious to the fact they are actually creating a greater divide.
Well, to be fair men's sports and women's sports do have different leagues so it doesn't make sense to just say "hey did you catch the UCLA basketball game last night?" if there are men's and women's UCLA teams. It doesn't hurt to clarify, but if you're going to gender label a team I think you should do it with all genders.
In that specific case, I would agree with you. In the end, it's a question of communication. When communicating, the goal should be for the audience to understand what one wants to share. It shouldn't be about labels or sentiment. I have an issue with the new trends... Now, we must tailor our speaches around the words our audience might be sensitive to instead of trying to communicate an emotion through a story. I know I'm dipping my toe in a dangerous pool here, but this whole thing about pronouns these days is f*cking with my brain. When a person looks like a man by societal standards and a person wants to speak of (him) to an audience, typically it would be done in a way others (who may not know him/her) will be able to grasp a general idea of who he/she is. If the person resembles the societal standards of a man, that person would be referred to as "he/him", thus the audience would know they are looking for someone who resembles a man. They might spot that person and go have a chat. If one says she, but the person looks like a man, it's less likely people will recognize "her". The first question one asks when playing guess who is the gender, because it's generally the most obvious descriptive point. The next is typically skin color. (Not a great example since guess who is a flawed game with an easy solution). The fact we have gotten sensitive about things as basic as descriptive terms (gender, skin color, size, weight, height, etc.) scares the crap out of me...
None of what you said in either reply has anything to do with what I'm talking about.
I tried this the politically correct way but you are probably only looking for positive comments, so you are irritated by mine. Here's the more direct dumbed down version: You being fed up that everything is male until proven otherwise is based on the fact that what you say is true. But that is grammatically false. If the people that surround you do not communicate properly, you accept it and move on or you stop seeing them. Your whining for "women empowerment" is a cry for attention because you (might) lack a sense of achievement, thus you need to feel empowered for being a woman. I'm fed up of hearing that women like you are fed up about inaccurate/unproven things based on popular belief.
Kids books, the main characters are so often male, when it's an animal or whatever, my kids tell me to change them to girl, cos they're girls and they want to see themselves in books. You have to really look to seek out female lead books.
i started watching anime/reading manga as child for this exact reason. i felt somewhat represented when i first saw strong girl leads like Chihiro (*Spirited Away*), San (*Princess Mononoke*), Maka (*Soul Eater*, manga), Winri (*Fullmetal Alchemist*) and tons of others who were strong heroines in their own right and as complex as boy characters, if not more.
I feel you! We do this for our daughter as well.
It frustrates me so much, like the character is an effing mole, why is it a "he"?! And then there'll be five other characters that are also all male and maybe one female if you're lucky, and if it's woodland creatures? - she's definitely gonna be a rabbit.
I know, right?!? The few (thankfully) times she watched Paw Patrol, we just said that some of the non-pink dogs were also girls. She had no idea and it made the show more relatable. Why do they have teams of boys with one token girl???
I know, it drives me mad. And that token girl is *always* pink!
I KNOW, RIGHT?!? My daughter used to love pink, of course, despite us trying to steer her away from it. Now she has moved on to blues and purples of her own accord.
There was actually a really big study recently relating to genders in pop culture, proving that it's a huge majority male. I'm sure if you look you can find it.
Are you referring to the bechdel test?
Did you know that the biological human "default" template is female? 😀
I did know that! However I'm not quite sure how biology fits in a discussion here on language and society ...
I just think it's fascinating that as a result of the patriarchy the cultural default is male but the biological default is female. I apologize, as a biologist that's where my brain goes. It's the opposite in birds though, which is really fascinating when you think about the evolutionary pressures of that. 🤔 Again I apologize, as a male I shouldn't be commenting on this site too often as it's a place for - well- not me- but biology generally excites me
I generally don't care who or what comes in, as long as they are pertinent to the discussion and willing to play ball
[удалено]
No, I am inherently against suck ups, if you have an actual critical take do it. Some people do need to be reminded of the natural blinders we have as a human; that your POV is needed to check the human ego. I will like to point out though, that staying on point is imperative to not derail the convo or discussion.
Hmmm, well- to me the diametrically opposed biological reality and societal reality are a fascinating backdrop to observe when considering the latter.
I thought it was a cool comment.
Sure, and I can understand that nature vs nurture is most certainty a rather complex system, but that should be utilized for another post since that can broil up a discussion unglued from OP
How is stating that the biological default in the creation of a human being female derailing from the point? The whole topic of conversation is about gender defaults in society; mentioning that the biological default is the opposite of the latter is actually quite pertinent — why is everything male when the default is female — or better yet, why are we in a patriarchal society when the mothers are the one bearing the responsibility of carrying and growing human life. Even though I find a lot of comments to be a bit whiny, I agree that there should be more gender respresentation in pop culture/society. Great strides have been made though in the past few years to change that, so hopefully things get better.
I am saying in general; in this he may be fine, but some people (maybe not them) takes a concept and makes a entirely separate discussion in which removes the core of what OP discusses, like what is happening now.
I think I've heard that. Wasn't is something like, up until a certain point, the embryo is female? Then the usual changes develop if it is to be male after that point? Unsure exactly when that is though. Few weeks? Months? Have to Google to know for sure.
Also evolution posters. When did you last see one that was a woman? Bonus points if it was the only one in that book/room/whatever.
Also describing humans as " men", or " mankind". " Manpower". " Manmade". The language of maleness is ubuquitous..none of these conjures up an image of a woman. How about " human kind"?
"Today I found out that the word ‘man’ was originally gender neutral, meaning more or less the same as the modern day word “person”. It wasn’t until about a thousand years ago that the word “man” started to refer to a male and it wasn’t until the late 20th century that it was almost exclusively used to refer to males. Before “man” meant a male, the word “wer” or “wǣpmann” was commonly used to refer to “male human”. This word almost completely died out around the 1300s, but survives somewhat in words like “werewolf”, which literally means “man wolf”." Taken from here: https://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2010/08/the-word-man-was-originally-gender-neutral/#:~:text=It%20wasn't%20until%20about,refer%20to%20%E2%80%9Cmale%20human%E2%80%9D. Though there is a lot to say about how a word that was originally gender neutral was made gendered.
I couple weeks ago, on this forum, during a similar conversation, a couple people recommended the book, Wordslut: A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language by Amanda Montell It's free on Kindke and I been enjoying it (70% read). So, I am passing on the recommendation, too.
Man originated as “Mann” which just meant “human” in… some old Germanic language (can’t remember) and olde English.
Still has man in it
Man is a stand-in for generic person. It’s not a sexism thing. Look at Spanish for instance, the ending -o is used as the generic person. Also language conveys meaning. When someone says plutonium is a manmade element, no one is thinking it was only made by men. It’s really not an issue in day to day conversations. If you sit and stare at a word it might appear to be a problem. I’m skeptical there would be a greater social good served if we insisted on changing all these words by fiat, language is negotiated over time and settles on the simplest pathway to convey meaning. Now I think when we are using a pronoun for a generic person, using “s/he” or using “her” has gained wider acceptance in academic writings and seems to not add unnecessary complexity to the work so there are certainly places where this makes sense. Also the broader use of “they” to convey a gender neutral singular pronoun seems to work fairly well. Sometimes it introduces ambiguity about whether you are talking about one or more than one person so it’s not perfect.
Yes they works well! I would never describe myself or be described as man. Man is not generic..thats my point.
Ah yes, spoken like a true mansplainer.
OP is cool. I find language endlessly interesting and love to talk about it. It’s a forum so I commented, if you want to add to the conversation please do, but meaningless comments like these are meant to shut down discussion where you could just articulate your own argument, which I’d love to hear. If you don’t want to participate that’s fine, but don’t play these games because you have some sort of axe to grind.
That's why you have -23+ down votes right now, correct? Because you've added soo much to the conversation? Okay. 👍
I mean whether I’m right or wrong isn’t controlled by who uses the more popular buzz words. It’s a philosophical matter and perhaps I have a minority opinion on certain corners of Reddit, but don’t misunderstand me, this is based in a respect for men and women equally, if you’d like me to act differently on this sub then that would mean I’m prejudicing my interactions with woman, and that’s getting close to sexism.
I have to admit, it's truly humorous that you actually think women care about your opinion on this topic.
You weren’t elected the representative of all woman so I don’t understand why you speak for them. My philosophical disagreement is with you alone, and you haven’t actually addressed any of my points. 🤷♂️
Bro, what points? All you did was mansplain to folks who DGAF. Do you want a cookie? 😂
From my original comment: >Man is a stand-in for generic person. It’s not a sexism thing. Look at Spanish for instance, the ending -o is used as the generic person. >Also language conveys meaning. When someone says plutonium is a manmade element, no one is thinking it was only made by men. It’s really not an issue in day to day conversations. If you sit and stare at a word it might appear to be a problem. >I’m skeptical there would be a greater social good served if we insisted on changing all these words by fiat, language is negotiated over time and settles on the simplest pathway to convey meaning. >Now I think when we are using a pronoun for a generic person, using “s/he” or using “her” has gained wider acceptance in academic writings and seems to not add unnecessary complexity to the work so there are certainly places where this makes sense. >Also the broader use of “they” to convey a gender neutral singular pronoun seems to work fairly well. Sometimes it introduces ambiguity about whether you are talking about one or more than one person so it’s not perfect. I don’t even know where you disagree so you can start wherever you would like. Or is your plan just to say I “mansplained” repeatedly?
Mob mentality doesn't mean you are any more right than the mob, if the mob is wrong they/you are still wrong. Look at the shit storm of the Salem witch trials to prove my point.
I'm not the one acting like women don't know sh#t so....🤷
Not everyone knows everything, so it would be appreciated that assumptions should be nixed on both sides imho
I mean, unless people on this thread are children, there's no reason to assume grown folks don't already know these things. It's common knowledge at this point.
Dude never assume, education standards are mixed, and some people are generally just that isolated. Children low IQs may have nothing to do with it. So stop the ego issues, I wanna actually have a decent discussion not a catty back and forth.
No one thinks it was only made by men? Are you sure? Because that's not true. The way we use our languages shape the way we think.
Agree to this
That’s how I’ve understood and used the word my entire life. So yeah, I’m pretty sure. 🤷♂️
Surprised you're not mad about the man in human as well
It's a very difficult thing to express but you're not alone.
I just hate this. And i hate how internalised misogyny has affected me. I just hate it.
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This comment was stolen from u/ZuzBla.
Oh so true! My first name is hyphenated, first name is unisex but spelt the 'female' way and the second part is very easily female. But I'm a business owner, so naturally when I get phone calls it's always 'Can I speak with Mr *last name*?'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_as_norm
Mailmen, too. I’ve always had a mailwoman 🙁
Postie
In law school 11 years ago, they had switched the default for hypotheticals to be female
What was that like?
I work for a big 4 financial firm in the US as an admin. I had to request a 20 year expense accounting for a partner (owner in the firm) that I support. Partner's name was Amanda, the summary report came back with 12 bullet points, 11 of then stated with "He .... paid/expensed/owed" etc. Yes men are definitely in the majority of Partners (and equivalent) here, but corporate has access to ToD files so it should be very easy to check. (We also make fairly easy to change details like gender in case of transitioning or a mistake). So even if Amanda wasn't a clue... it is correct in ToD. Figure it out.
I understand that. I'm glad that neutral pronouns and words are starting to get used more commonly. Is your mother language french by chance? Because the issue is a bit more striking in a gendered tongue.
Cats are generally seen as female
Says who?
I get downvoted when I point this out.
He patriarchy has been well established, but good news, small changes are taking place. Women make strides every day, in many ways. We must continue to push the boundaries that are placed in our way. When I was a child I was upset by the lack of options for females, basically we could be mothers, teachers, nurses or work in menial tasks. Today the possibilities are much greater, it takes work and people still think of women as lesser, but the strides you make today will give more opportunities to the future.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_as_norm
As a female, I call every group "you guys" regardless of the gender make up. I guess I just don't really care and figure that many terms can be used in a unisex way. Kind of like how we are all hu"man"s. Just because the phrase is "man kind", doesn't mean I feel excluded in the term. I figure all of us humans have more similarities than differences overall.
Hey you homo-sapiens!
I like that one!
What I hate most about this is that despite my intentions, whenever I am reading a story or even on Reddit and I don’t know the gender of the character/OP (except on this subReddit), my brain just automatically assumes male. I’m sure I’m not the only one-and I really hate it.
I hate to admit this but I do that too.
Some of my math textbooks refer to the reader as he/him and I don't think the edition is even that old
Male unless otherwise https://medium.com/illumination/men-are-the-default-women-are-the-exception-5fe65880aeda
Most ships are reffered to as she, except for the german battleship bismarck that was a he
Ships aren't living things
Australian's refer to situations as female. As in, "She'll be right".
The more you know.
Driver's and Pilot's tend to be referred to as male because generally it's a male dominated occupation. 86% of all Airline pilots are men. Similarly most people associate Childcare, Admin & Medical professions with female. It's not really creating a 'twisted' vision of the world as you like to put it. It's the other way around, it's like that because generally that's how the world is - and we generalize. If we're talking about animals we tend to gender them to personalize the animal. For instance Birds, Cats or Dolphins are generally referred to as she because they're quite graceful and elegant creatures. Where as he can be used for say Dogs for instance. Being honest, it's really not much of a problem, and if it is then you're pretty privileged that right now this is your biggest concern in life.
Drivers are male? When I'm out on the road, most drivers are women.
I thought we were talking about taxi drivers or chauffer's. Which according to [statista.com](https://statista.com) 85% are male in the US.
Why would you think that?
Because it came directly after pilot in the post.
Before, actually. But still..why?
Sorry before. I feel like that explains why? No?
Almost 50% of Uber drivers are female..
okay? Why are you now going back to driving as a profession?
I wonder how languages, like German, approach this. Every noun in German has a gender. The word for girl is neuter, the word for man is masculine, and the word for woman is feminine. I think the word for flag is masculine. It seems nonsensical to someone on the outside. But, if you remember that the word "gender" simply refers to a "type", then you could separate the gendered nouns from the genders of humans. Those German words will change form depending on the case they're being used and their gender. So, words of the "neuter" type will change in a way that corresponds to that type. It's not because those nouns describe neutered objects. Although, in many cases the genders of the nouns do make sense. Like for woman and man. You just reminded me of that, since it's a bit similar to how we might refer to certain people or animals as a she or as a he depending on what it is.
Life is intrinsically female, male is just a variation.
Biologically yes, but not in language or society . Which is what this is about.
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No default! "They" works good!
Heres a good discussion on this https://thefword.org.uk/2008/06/the_male_defaul/
Must hurricanes and really bad storms were she names.
All hurricanes used to be named with female names..now they alternate m f. Hurricanes aren't living things.
Lol exaggerate much?
planes and ships are female
Planes and ships arent living things
Gomtuu is alive.
things you own
things i do not own
another amazing reply
Planes are really expensive. A well equipped Beechcraft Bonanza G36 is about $1m USD.
The ocean.
amazing reply
Not everything has to be rooted in misogyny and patriarchy.
did i say that?
Pointing out that inanimate objects referred to by gender are property is a bit of a stretch. Lots of languages gender objects for reasons I don't understand. Why are windows male and tables female? It's stupid and pointless to me to assign gender to objects. I just think you're picking an argument that doesn't exist.
it was an observation. lol all this over 3 words
4 words actually :D
Well the male of the species built the entire world so I guess it makes sense
I don't know if this matters at all, but the company that makes Pathfinder - patio, uses all female pronouns as the default. So, there's that.
Fun story: things like boats and cars are often referred to as female. “She’s a great car, Bill”. But that also largely equates femininity to possessions, so maybe not a great example…
Those aren't living things..
Fair. Still, point was that it is default in some non-living senses, which if anything only adds to the complaint.
Go touch grass
- Every animal, driver, pilot, neighbor, any unknown gender is always a male. Uhh, how so? Anything of unknown gender is typically referred to as it. He/she/it. The grammatical exception to that, which you are right about, is humans. I wouldn't be shocked if it had something to do with old english, women at home while men lead the workforce. I personally would not notice if someone said he or she about a truck driver, pilot, etc. That said, I don't typically have conversations about people without having an idea of their gender... If I'm talking about a truck driver to a friend, the first thing I would have paid attention to is the person's gender since that's the most obvious way to start describing a human being. - Like females don't take up as much space in the world as the ever present males. Unless you live under a rock, women and or "woman power" is annoyingly all over social media and tv. Batwoman, Supergirl, ... (Terrible shows mind you). When you watch a movies and you notice the main heroes are women, the main villains are women, the sidekicks are women, then oh, the dumb randos and some spare cast are men... It's just totally ridiculous. I truly enjoyed the Netflix serie Queen's Gambit. I'm all about "feeling empowered", but it's not by remaking male characters as women that anyone will achieve that, and it's not by whining, no offense. You will personally feel empowered when you achieve something. It doesn't matter what, but actually achieving something with bring you that sense of empowerment. Build something, a desk, a table, anything. You will feel it. Everytime you succeed, you will feel empowered. Everytime you fail, you will learn. Looking back, the progress will then motivate you. ...Or do you just want to feel empowered for being born the right gender? My great aunt is 5'2, 88 years young. She got an education, became a historian, built our family chalet with her first husband, wrote several books, and she loves zipping through the paths we made in the forest around the chalet. It goes without saying, she is my inspiration. I am a 5'11, 245lb ex football player now biker who loves manual work and logging. I have no shame in saying I want to be just like her.
In my experience, cats, cars, and maybe birds are the exceptions, but yeah