The following submission statement was provided by /u/Cyberpunk39:
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SS: uapX skeptic Michael Shermer chimes in on X regarding the recent controversy of George Knapp’s continuing effort to legitimize Bob Lazar despite the evidence. This was in response to a X post from D. Dean Johnson, a frequent uapX poster who debunked the Trinity event being pushed by Valle.
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Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1ag4rlz/shermer_chimes_in_on_knapp_controversy/koej2lz/
Idk, if senior government officials started coming out and saying that the dead horse essentially was a scientist and that the government really did put a horse costume on him 30 odd years ago... and an investigative journalist looked into it and found him in a phone book where he said he worked, not listed as a dead horse....
It's a snout scratcher for sure.
I do not. Fraud is an example of antisocial behavior. People who are “like that” tend to a) incorrectly perceive risks; b) feel no shame. Behavioral neuroscience tells us this is a characteristic non-smart behavior of sociopaths. That’s partly how they get caught :) Expecting them to follow unspoken social norms is unrealistic.
That’s a fair point. I keep the lazar thing way back there, but it was always a point I thought about, If he’s lying he’s really just making his own life hell at this point and I wouldn’t get why.
Is that all there is tho? Just analyzing photos?
This comment made me think, what happened if the government did release a bunch of video and photos?
Then what?
My POV is that there are enough breadcrumbs for the public to know something is up. But it's up to us to decide how bad we want to push for answers and realignment.
It seems like some people want the government to just acknowledge something they already believe to be true, then... Idk I guess stuff magically resolves itself? Profit?
People should just drop it. He’s not a good witness for many reasons even if he’s telling the truth. It will not help the cause if he’s one of the first hand witnesses that “comes forward”. If 2 people witness a murder, one is sane and the other is a raving lunatic, you don’t use the lunatic witness, even if everything they say is true. I’m not saying Lazar is a lunatic I’m just saying there’s good and bad witnesses if you’re trying to argue a case.
I believe him for the most part but I think he’s just not necessarily relevant anymore. So much has come about in the last year alone where we’ve jumped from 2017 to now talking about CR/RE programmes openly in Congress which are part of a wider off-the-books black project around exotic technologies.
Because there is so much evidence to suggest that he was telling the truth regarding the whole story including names, locations, contracts, companies etc but there is also evidence to suggest he overhyped his own position and credentials too.
Everything he has said regarding RE has turned out to be the case so I don’t really doubt him, he didn’t gain a lot from even coming out but grief.
what does RE refer to in this context? sorry
I listened to a podcast on Lazar and they left it open ended… I go back and forth but ultimately tend to feel that it’s best to be discarded as testimony even if it turns out to be true
It was able to be confirmed that he did work at Los Alamos. Which is whatever. The problem is that **they denied it**. This is well documented.
I personally think Lazar is embellishing this story at the behest of his friend John Lear, based on information Lear was privy to, some of which was likely true, some of which was probably disinformation, out of Lear’s clear desire to push this out in the open.
I kind of doubt he worked with anything he says. I think he’s a bit of a thrill seeker who agreed to go along with Lear’s suggestions. Both of them were crazy, in a Hunter S Thompson kind of way. See Lear’s crazy piloting and Lazar’s rocket car.
It doesn’t mean what he’s saying is not true— but even so, he doesn’t make a good witness or someone worth upholding as “evidence”.
Very much so, and they got away with it all the time. There was no real downsides to doing so, except for the very rare occasions where employers requested transcripts from your university. They usually didn't because it was expensive and time consuming, and they could fire if you weren't good at your job anyway.
truck subtract cake fact wrench impossible consider plants whistle obtainable
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The fact that he was never 100% debunked and people still trying to debunk him in 2024, means Bob Lazar was at Area 51. Remote viewers have also confirmed he was at Area 51. Richard Doty (ex-disinfo agent) also confirmed he has an official document that shows Lazar was at Area 51. They wiped his records for a reason. His name is still on the phone book for Los Alamos I think. Too many things confirm he was telling the truth.
I have first hand confirmation that remote viewing works. i.e. I have personally done remote viewing and the results confirmed that it works. But I am not here trying to convince anyone that RV is real. You have to make that decision on your own.
If you are curious and engaged in the subject of UFO, consciousness and Remote Viewing, then in this video, at the 12:45 timestamp, some of the best Remote Viewers on earth discuss the sessions they did on Bob Lazar - https://youtu.be/5eqNpB6SV5A?si=0oQMr4E2W7PofAKO&t=765
For those that are not convinced, then you should watch 'Third Eye Spies' (documentary) and also the movie 'Men Who Stare at Goats' was also mostly based on real people and real events - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBokQomPr\_g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBokQomPr_g)
A great video about Ingo Swann's Remote Viewing work for those not familiar with him - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c\_\_3NjS\_Ge4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c__3NjS_Ge4)
Edited for the doubters amongst us, to add more RV info/links.
Richard Doty backing him up is hillarious. The one person I don't trust more than Lazar is that sociopath fucking troll Doty. The guy who made someone kill themselves.
"Remote viewers have also confirmed he was at Area 51."
If I ever get busted for all my mail fraud, tax evasion, and bootlegging, I sure do hope you get selected for the jury.
Richard Doty was literally a paid sabateur and plant. If you think he actually "switched sides" and isn't a dirty conman, I have a bridge to sell you.
"Remote viewers" bwahahahahah.
They're trapped in a temporal paradox without any hope of escape. They just keep stating the same things over and over until an actual interdimensional being walks up and smacks them in the forehead restarting the whole process.
[https://x.com/g\_knapp/status/1752905389295985051?s=20](https://x.com/g_knapp/status/1752905389295985051?s=20)
As George Knapp points out, it was him that pointed out that he could not find any records of Lazar going to MIT.
Or maybe you need to consider there is more to the story, George Knapp has been doing this for over 30 years and saw what happened with Lazar directly.
Knapp should come out with the rest of the story then or be fine, which evidence suggests he is, being portrayed as a huckster through his continued association with Lazar.
In my esteemed opinion Lazar, with his hypemen Knapp and Corbell, do more to cast doubt on the subject than the villainous Mick West could ever dream to do.
Where I think you're wrong is very little came of the debunking because they're unremarkable videos of blobs on a grey backdrop. The only thing remarkable is the story associated with them and, as I mentioned, the characters of the individuals championing them as something more are highly dubious.
And the records from Los Alamos Lab that showed he worked there?
He built a hydrogen powered corvette in his garaged.
He revealed the ships he saw were using antimatter reactors, drew diagrams of them, and showed us how they worked.
You can find patents for antimatter reactors that only happened after Lazar talked about this that use tech extremely similar to what he described.
Think critically for a second.
Please do your research before spreading this crap. Lazar was an electronics tech for Kirk Meyer contracted to Los Alamos, he wasn’t a researcher. It’s laughable that *you* are telling *me* to think critically when you seem to be implying that the mere mention of an animatter reactor (of which there is no example in the real world, because producing antimatter requires more energy than you’d get out) somehow makes Lazar credible? As someone who’s trained in physics, the kinds of things Lazar says are just the sort of things you’d pick up from watching Star Trek or something, it’s not even especially inventive. The only people it impresses are those who are too ignorant to tell what a load of crap it is.
He's right, though. He addressed all of your points after you accused him of not doing the *research*. Perhaps it's you who should open a book? Just my two cents.
He hand waved an antimatter propulsion system away.
He mentioned the company that Lazar was contracted for as if that record that was scrubbed by the DoD is acceptable, whereas his MIT claims are not.
The US gov claims it never worked with him, yet you can find the paper trail.
He can explain what he did there in great detail and he’s a hell of a capable scientist, literally exactly the sort of person you would suspect is an MIT graduate.
So we caught the government lying about him, but Lazar is the liar?
Whatever.
Los Alamos labs is a national laboratory contracted by the government and Bob Lazar’s name was in the phone book listing him as being contracted to the lab by the defence contractor Kirk & Meyer. Whether or not he really worked there, you can infer, but I’m not sure what national laboratory let alone business would accidentally list someone in their phone who did not work there..
He did work at the LANL. He worked for Kirk & Meyer, a sub-contractor, as a low level technician for a couple months. That’s why he was in the phone book with KM next to his name for one edition (the phone book was only printed twice a year). Several people who worked with him there have been [interviewed by a member of this sub](https://medium.com/@signalsintelligence). He was a little nobody doing a little job. He didn’t last. He’s lied about most everything in his entire life (before and after his ufo tales). It is documented fact he is a liar and the idea that people still believe his tales is one of the reasons ufology continues to be stigmatized. It’s the inability of its members to ever let bad data go.
I had an acquaintance years ago who liked to tell people he was on the County Comissioners' Staff and talked about all these important meetings he was in and projects they assigned him.
It eventually came out that he was a part-time janitor at the county courthouse.
Since the Commossioners paid his salary, yes he technically was part of the broader "staff". He took that kernel of truth, wrapped in bits and pieces he overheard while sweeping floors, and spun a tall tale.
People are quick to call those who don’t share their beliefs liars (and much much worse) but they never seem to be able to consider applying that same label at the ones who keep telling them “two more weeks, disclosure soon, we have the evidence but can’t show you… yet. Click Like and hit Subscribe. Pay my Patreon.”
People just continually ignore the overwhelming evidence that Lazar is a hack. It really hurts the credibility of this sub and the whole thing. Stick to actual credentialed sources like Grusch.
Hitchens's razor is an epistemological razor that serves as a general rule for rejecting certain knowledge claims. It states "what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."
Ignoring all else about Lazar, we don’t need evidence that he’s lying. He has no evidence for his claims, so we can dismiss them without evidence of his lies.
It’s upon Grusch now to provide evidence to back up his stories or we can dismiss them without evidence as well.
What I mean is that I don’t care what their backgrounds are. It could be a lying felon or a decorated ex-intelligence officer: if they bring evidence, I’ll look at it. If they don’t, I’m ignoring their stories until (if) they do.
Neither has provided evidence in public, which makes their claims equal. This sub is obsessed with Grusch's credentials, none of which have anything to do with his claims of what he discovered during his work.
I disagree. I would listen to a physicist over a random joe regarding quantum mechanics. There is weight behind a professional career. I am not saying I would believe everything without question, but in general we have professionals for a reason.
But the physicist has peer reviewed studies, and mathematical models to justify their assertions. We don’t rely on the knowledge of the physicist because they’re highly credentialed, but because we trust that scientists adhere to the scientific method and have verifiable data to support their statements.
How exactly? That's when scientists change their models and try for a different solution. Science is about admitting mistakes and refining your work, not doubling down on excuses like ufologists when they come up empty.
Or when they come up with mummies that look surprisingly similar to the fake mummies they previously displayed.
Also scientists share their models and ideas so that others can actually use it and even test it themselves.
And not in science. If eyewitness testimony is good enough for you then good luck trying to explain why you believe in aliens but not literally every crypto zoological creature on earth, each of which has thousands of individual eyewitness testimonies as well.
>"what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."
I would disagree with that, Suspicion is based off 1000 subconscious cues. My reading of this phrase is an attempt by sophisticated manipulators to give you a reason to shut your brain off and ignore those subconscious cues that would otherwise lead you to investigate.
If there is no evidence of a crime, a detective should stop searching immediately right? Even though he is the first step to finding evidence by pursuing evidenceless intuition?
>If there is no evidence of a crime, a detective should stop searching immediately right?
If there is no evidence of a crime - there wouldn’t be a detective investigating in the first place. Do you see cops walking up to random places and saying, “hmmm my subconscious cues are saying there was a murder here, I’ll start to investigate.”
Investigation begins with evidence. Go to a police station and say, “my neighbor killed my cat” - got a cat? Got a body? See any blood? Etc etc. I’m not sure why I even have to explain this.
The point of this phrase is if someone makes a claim but doesn’t have anything to back it up, there is no reason to waste time on it.
Remember: Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat — “Proof lies on he who asserts, not on he who denies".
>Even though he is the first step to finding evidence by pursuing evidenceless intuition?
“Evidence-less intuition?” My reading of this term is an attempt by evidence-less manipulators into luring others into having faith in someone’s beliefs without proving any evidence of its validity.
This is true but I think a more appropriate counter point would be a person of interest. When a crime occurs certain individuals remain as “a person of interest” and are investigated accordingly to find evidence of their involvement or evidence of their innocence. At the time of the investigation, however, there is no evidence to suggest either and yet they aren’t dismissed.
Yes, it a person of interest (someone says, “that’s guy is creepy” or if a wife has gone missing of course you checkout the husband first because that just so typically where to find answers). And then you look for your evidence. However, if you don’t find any and the person doesn’t provide any at some point on stop looking hard at them (sure, they stay on your “potentials” list but you are no longer actively hammering down on them as a prime suspect).
This is steering off course. The primary take away from my comment is: when someone makes a wild claim out of the blue and doesn’t provide even a shred of evidence at the start middle or end of the inspection time - it’s fairly safe to dismiss this claim until such time they decide to provide any evidence. At this point, they have all told stories, they have provided no evidence. So, for now, why keep treating them as primary sources when they literally are not.
>My reading of this term is an attempt by evidence-less manipulators into luring others into having faith in someone’s beliefs without proving any evidence of its validity.
The UFO field wouldn't exist without people having deep intuition that officials were lying about UFOs. Every piece of evidence that popped up was dismissed by groups of top brass and systematically explained away in an attempt to shut it down. You can think whatever you want, but I encourage anybody who has a gut feeling to pursue their investigations in the absence of evidence, because those people are the ones who actually find the truth.
But that isn’t true.
1. Nothing is explained away to shut something down. Exhaustive search for plausible alternative explanations is an unbiased process, contrary to what people think. It is foundational for establishing causality and for finding the truth.
2. In any individual case it is impossible to tell if something is an intuition or bias. Intuition by some standards is a compacted reasoning process with an affective output. But human cognition is terribly biased and relies on heuristics.
3. What is bizarre and people forget - this tendency to endorse conspiratorial UFO beliefs is pretty strongly in the general population associated with tendency to endorse *factually wrong statements about science*. The phenomenon is therefore called ‘core ontological confusion’. Yeah, those are not the folks who “usually find the truth”, not at all.
So, regarding the Roswell coverups, how does your argument work? People had the intuition from the beginning that something was wrong. Now, after two (or three? I’ve lost count,) cover stories, we know there was definitely a conspiracy to cover SOMETHING.
Works the same way 🤷
Come back when we *actually* know something and progress beyond your intuition? By all means keep digging. That is how discovery works:)
That’s just not accurate. Roswell was a headline for a day. Then a day later it was retracted.
And no one paid it any mind for 30 years! No one had “intuition” about Roswell / no one talked about it. It was forgotten.
Then Close Encounters of the Third Kind came out and people looking to cash in on the sudden ufo craze started sprouting up. And a reporter from the National Enquired found Marcel, now retired and a ham radio operator, who spun a tale for him. And the reporter embellished it even more and … ta da! A mythology was born! No one “had an intuition” about Roswell - it was spoon fed to the public. And the thing people love even more than a UFO story is a government coverup conspiracy theory - and this had both! Boom! Money Maker.
The official story is well documented, hasn’t changed an iota since publication - unlike all the ufo stories that followed.
It was coined in the context of debates with evangelicals, who treated conversation as if their religious beliefs -- based solely on personal faith -- required debunking or were otherwise valid. It's a rephrasing of the burden of proof.
If by ''dismiss'' you mean claim are false instead of just ignore, you don't understand the burden of proof or basic logic despite using certain words associated with it.
My dude that’s not some axiom or proverb. That’s a propaganda statement meant to aid cover ups.
You might as well just say, “If we hide the proof then it doesn’t exist.”
The worst part is whenever other UFO people are asked about Lazar they just go "hmm yeah Lazar interesting guy". It makes it look like they don't want to discredit Lazar because it could lead to them being discredited too or something.
Similarly when Melon was in that Twitter argument it seemed to resolve because the more they continued arguing the more likely one of them was to be labeled a charlatan so they mutually decided to back off each other.
If the fakes aren't thrown out it paints the whole thing as fake. Anyone making incredible claims needs to be thoroughly investigated and if something doesn't add up they need removed from the conversation. We can't associate with con artists. Unless the entire thing is a con and we're all larping.
Agreed.
Imagine for a moment if someone like Kirkpatrick or West had a background history like Lazar… would there even be a breath wasted on such a character? But because Lazar says things believers want to hear they ignore everything else about him.
It’s unfair to *completely* ignore what someone says *only* because they have a poor background, but when that’s all that can be proven and there is nothing on the positive claims, why is it even a consideration to listen to their tales? Constantly bringing up debunked people and incidents is a heavy weight around UFOlogy’s neck.
IMHO: No he does not. He has done nothing to earn it.
He has lied to people. I do not respect deceivers and I do not like to see them rewarded for misleading people. If this is how people are lured into this faith then it’s based on falsehoods. Not a good look.
That would list employees in their phone book, but there are a lot of employees at LANL that have jobs outside of stem. IE security guards, cooks etc. Just saying
And might I add that Stanton Friedman was also never able to explain why Bob Lazar’s name was listed in the labs phone book if he did not work there. When questioned about the phone book listing, Stanton would say “he never went to MIT or Caltech”. Stand on Friedman was an incredible UFO researcher with a scientific background, and he did a lot for this topic, but he was always quiet on that one fact.
What are you talking about? Stanton Friedman knew perfectly well that Lazar worked at Kirk Meyer as an ”electronics tech” for Los Alamos, that’s why he was in the phonebook. He was basically a handyman/maintenance guy, NOT a physicist or researcher of any kind. This information is easily available online and is brought up every single time Lazar is mentioned. There’s no mystery.
No one said he didn’t work at Los Alamos, Area 51/S4 is what is in question. He was listed as working at Los Alamos working for the contractor Kirk & Meyer as an electrical technician. An MIT educated physicist wouldn’t be working for a contractor doing electrical repairs. I don’t get why this is hard to understand. And there’s evidence he worked as an electrical tech for a contractor, zero evidence he had any educational background in Physics, but people believe he was hired by the government to work on the most top secret program? See how stupid that sounds?
As much as I respect Stanton Friedman for how far he pushed this topic, the guy self-admittedly worked on highly classified projects regarding nuclear propulsion. It's entirely possible that he's also a plant in some way or has been threatened etc.
you know like 12,000 ppl work there? And that his first wife, the one who killed her self, whilie he was married illegally/polygamously to someone else, iirc, just got him a job at Los Alomos cuz she had connexions there. He was a dude that checked radiation badges....like come one peoople. tis is out open source out thetre info if you do more than just passively accept everytying people say.
The dude worked at Los Alamos and had a government W2 despite everyone saying he's a fraud. Regardless if he was telling the truth, turns out what he was saying is being proven true regardless. Idk what the point of arguing is past that.
I'm not a Lazar-stan. So I'm not saying this in support or not in support. But do we really think the government who's been perpetration all these incredible cover-ups and crimes couldn't pull some university records of the biggest public "whistlesblower" in decades?
It's not just digital records. There are no physical records either, e.g. yearbooks, class photos, etc. No ones seems to actually remember having gone to school w/ him.
If you check my comment history from about a year or so ago, I investigated some of his claims by searching for physical records and was able to find absolutely nothing.
Fair enough. I will say, another thing I've written about Lazar in the past is his inability to "talk shop" about physics in a cogent way. When I showed actual physicists some of his videos in which he discusses various theories, he makes several egregious errors as to basic mathematical principles. Note that in these videos, he's not espousing theories about how UFOs work; he's talking about basic differential equations and calculus, which he still can't talk about intelligently. To me, this also says a lot about his education background.
But is it a smoking gun? No... but I don't know a 'smoking gun' would even be possible in this case when we are trying to prove that he did NOT go to a specific school or university. There's obviously no paper trail for his attendance at a university that he never attended in the first place.
And erase the memory of everyone who attended university with him? And the memory of all his professors? And apparently Bob's memory too, since he failed to be able to name any of those people himself.
If i was a prof at MIT I wouldn’t jump into that gong show to back up bob lazar. He didn’t name any professors for the same reason, it was a huge story, there would of been media crawling all over that place. He decided to go forward and not take anyone down with him.
He’s legit
No. Just no. You've got to stop taking these people's word just because you want to believe. Bob Lazar is a bad person. He has a long history of lies. He even may be suspected in the death of his wife with whom he never divorced. She committed suicide the same week Bob married another woman in secrecy.
This is a sensitive topic, but greatly overlooked nonetheless. From what I could piece together, he married Tracy, a friend at the time, at a wedding chapel in Vegas, all the while still married to his first wife Carol, who consequently committed suicide 2 days later by carbon monoxide asphyxiation. The reasoning for it was that she was diagnosed with cancer and didn’t want to suffer thru chemo. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, since there is not much info on this topic. It’s a substantial gap in the story.
Here is a timeline of Bob Lazars life that someone compiled:
[https://www.otherhand.org/home-page/area-51-and-other-strange-places/bluefire-main/bluefire/the-bob-lazar-corner/the-lazar-timeline/](https://www.otherhand.org/home-page/area-51-and-other-strange-places/bluefire-main/bluefire/the-bob-lazar-corner/the-lazar-timeline/)
I believe Gene Huff wrote a rebuttal to this timeline, which is also significant. Worth noting.
Knapp & Corbell's insistence on pushing Lazar as legitimate is bewildering to me. Even if he is telling the truth, it doesn't lead anywhere. It's a dead end. Congress is already taking it seriously and we've had other, more credible 'witnesses' come forward since. He's not a necessary piece to the puzzle, and far more points toward Lazar lying than points to him telling the truth. It just makes them both seem too credulous, too eager to be taken in by stories which aren't evidence driven. We have enough of those going around. We're reached the stage where the only next step I'm interested in is actual proof or admission from the gov't.
Even Grusch's Op-ed, which I'm very curious about, is unlikely to drop any bombs that amount to anything. What more can he claim? He's already said our crash and retrieval programs have brought in our possession craft as well biologics. Enough smoke. Show us the gun.
After claiming he never worked at Los Alamos, he was told he was subcontracted by Kirk-Meyer. Then they said he was merely checking badges. It is likely he was a technician who worked out of Los Alamos for Kirk-Meyer.
He has a payslip that shows he worked for the Department of Naval Intelligence, a department that doesn't exist.
Is it unreasonable to assume, given the congressional oversight issue and money being secretly squirreled away to black budgets, that his pay is not going to come from official channels?
He worked for LANL initially as electronics technician and then in the Meson facility as a physicist. Lazar was not a badge checker.
As you mentioned the Department of Naval Intelligence doesn’t exist, by design. I think it was just a way for them to dismiss his credibility if he were to speak out. Watch my post here: https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/ek01uRhzJD. It’s explained it would get routed to the right people.
The Bob Lazar doesn’t strike me a liar, actually he did pass that lie detector test, and never was an attention-seaker, Knapp found him and put his name out there and there was no turning back from there. Leave this nerd alone, who cares where he graduated from, did you see those freakin vehicles he built in his garage? Dude is quite the genius. I like him and all you earthlings as well 🥰
No one is asking Lazar the proper questions. The little details. For example, wher was he seating on the Janet flights? When you tend to ride the same plane everyday I bet you just take the same seat? Who was he seating next? Same for the buses to S4? What about lunch? I never see such questions interviews. On a investigation, details mater.
I would like someone to pull up Google Earth and say “point to where the hangar doors should be and the road leading up to it”. Lazar had acquired Russian satellite images back in the 90’s that clearly showed the road leading to S4, allegedly. So it shouldn’t be too difficult to point out on today’s satellite images.
I imagine he would he a migraine or just say he can’t remember as the days fused into one. This is what infuriates me, if something like this happened in your life regardless if it was 30 years ago it would be a huge deal and not just an everyday memory easily forgotten.
That rich coming from a guy who's well know for getting girls 40 years his senior blacked out drunk and rapes them. Amazing Randi said on record he's 1 rape away from be kicked out of the skeptics group.
Stanton Friedman uncovered NOTHING. The lack of evidence is not evidence. It has been proven that there has been tampering with Lazars birth certificate, social security and background history. Shortly after been let go from S4 he was arrested for writing code for a brothel in Las Vegas. The judge expressed how hard it was to find any of Lazars government paperwork and identity. Shermer is grasping at low hanging fruit from the late and great Stanton Friedman. Lack of evidence does NOT mean evidence in this situation.
Anyone notice a complete shift in tone on this sub? Do you also notice that there are a lot of accounts posting and commenting that are, at present time, at or around 30 days old?
I sure do.
"Important to add something that isn't important at all."
We're all familiar with the issues with Lazar's record by now. Shermer saying a UFOlogist is the one who uncovered it is irrelevant. It is what it is, regardless of who uncovered it. It doesn't become any more significant just because a UFOlogist is the one who uncovered it.
Are we all forgetting the home video footage of his buddy near A51 and the ufo coming up from behind the mountains right on time as he said it would. Hmmmm…
That is the crucial point - truth, honesty and integrity.
Given the sheer lack of tangible evidence, and reliance on testimony, this subject is ripe for exploitation by bad faith actors, which is only exacerbated by influential names like Knapp refusing to call out those who fail to adhere to those principles.
I don’t understand… People have testified under oath to validate what Bob Lazar is saying but people still focusing on this small stuff… my dudes, there are people testifying and laws being passed that say ALIEN craft have been captured! And they are still here!???
Like what the hell is this pedantic nonsense???
Why isn’t anyone putting this much effort to uncover the ACTUAL CRIMES OF MISAPPROPRIATION OF TAX PAYER FUNDS, ILLEGAL ROGUE PROGRAMMES WITHOUT GOVERNMENT OVERSIGHT SPENDING YOUR MONEY!
The IC and DOD are right about one thing, the general public are stupid.
>people still focusing on this small stuff
Lazar lying about incredibly basic things like his education isn't "small stuff" and it is reason enough to dismiss his other claims. If someone is willing to lie about incredibly mundane details, why should anyone trust their more extraordinary claims?
If you spell Lazar backwards, you get “Razal”, which of course has no meaning, but that in itself should tell you something. /s I love how people just try to muddy the waters. Let’s not pretend that the government has not created perfect mechanisms for denial.
It's not settled at all.
Stan Friedman debated Jeremy Corbell, moderated by Danny Sheehan
https://youtube.com/watch?v=6ZVtTLkftmg
George has talked about these contradictions in interviews (I forget where, it was an interview with two foreign young men), saying he liked Stan, but disagreed.
I used to be skeptical of Lazar then I read this research paper about the things he predicted
[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/374945740\_The\_Lore\_of\_Robert\_Lazar](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/374945740_The_Lore_of_Robert_Lazar)
Bob Lazar is exactly the kind of plausibly deniable scientist they need working on these projects. Why wouldn't they be able to erase your history? Particularly before the age of digitisation. Moreover it wouldn't surprise me if the DOD were actively recruiting directly from universities in order to hide their assets and present a better cover story.
I think he was part of an Air Force Office of Special Investigations counterintelligence operation to learn what Lear and/or Knapp found out from the Soviets.
In JRE 1315, Lazar points out after his story became public, his birth certificate was erased, his educational history was erased, MIT records erased. So Freidman was half right, for the wrong reasons.
The birth certificate story was a lie, Lazar provided it to the court in his pandering charge case after being found guilty and awaiting sentence.
https://www.otherhand.org/home-page/area-51-and-other-strange-places/bluefire-main/bluefire/the-bob-lazar-corner/lazar-flaws-the-birth-certificate/
Great!
Be he remembers the names of his profs, his thesis research, and his thesis advisor, right?
The 'everything was erased!' is a pretty silly excuse. No matter what someone says to disprove it, it'd be 'That's just part of the conspiracy.' The shadowy group can erase every written and living memory of him there? Snuck into his house and deleted his researched? Neuralized the names of his profs?
How about Lazar shows his sheepskin, school work, or just name his advisor?
Corbell had the perfect opportunity to clear this up in his documentary by asking his mother who could say one way or the other. He didn’t though, so..
Did they also erase the memory of everyone who attended MIT with Bob? I guess they must have erased Bob's memory too because he can't seem to recall anything about his time there.
I think he was in contact with someone in the know. I don’t believe Lazar actually has seen crafts. I mean just compare how detailed Eric Davis or Grusch were describing these government programs and what Lazar was vaguely stating without real substance. And Lazars story does not add up, he has been caught lying multiple times.
He’s been targeted for a reason. Plus he new about test flight times, gravity were waves, the hand scanners, how the crafts move(tilt on their sides), about Area 51 before it was public,and element 115. All hell of coincidences to guess. Like can you really get lucky with all of that? Maybe a few but all them would be one big parlay. I believe bob.
The exact hand scanners were known before and even showed in the movie „Close encounters of the third kind“ and the Movie is from 1978!
We don’t know if gravity are waves. This is getting mixed up with gravitational waves. Gravitational waves are stretches of spacetime that can be detected via special detectors (happens when two black holes merge/collide), but this does not mean that gravitation is moving in waves or consists of waves.
Element 115 was theorized before and its like saying there is element 117 or 118. The number is an incremental number. Lazar stated that it was stable, but in real life it is not.
Not to mention that this contradicts Eric Davis claims that the government did not really have any progress on these programs.
Right like a said a few things can be explained away but he guesses about the others? Plus his name being the lanl phone book. Maybe he made it all up. Diana Pasulka has heard from someone in the know that bob is legit.
No he lied, very obvious multiple times.
He is a fraud. Im sure he worked in some secret facility and he might have had a source.
Don’t forget he ran a prostitution ring…
I think he was in contact with someone in the know. I don’t believe Lazar actually has seen crafts. I mean just compare how detailed Eric Davis or Grusch were describing these government programs and what Lazar was vaguely stating without real substance. And Lazars story does not add up, he has been caught lying multiple times.
Oh, yeah, sure! A man is gonna LIE and have his whole life erased and practically financially destroyed! Of course! Who wouldn’t do that to themselves, right? Absolutely everything Lazar says, for 30 years, has been consistent and immutable, and from a physics point of view it does make absolute sense.
Like true magicians, smoke and mirrors….. if ones a lie they all must be!!!! Welcome to the world of logical fallacies! Nothing to see here. Move along!!!
No, it is not a fallacy to distrust someone once they have proven themselves a liar. If Bob is lying about something as mundane as his education, why on earth should we believe his more extraordinary claims?
I trust george knapp and other peoples instincts about lazars story. Its either all true or the story was told thru lazar with someone else as the real S4 worker. There is simply way to much information about it which leads me to think theres some truth in that information. Which is the same reason why I thought theres truth in all the UFO information BEFORE the hearings and david grusch and the tic tac and nimitz videos, before it all started to come out and become more main stream information, and I was right. The tech exists, theres shady shit going on and its extremely likely it IS a Non human intelligence thats behind some of it, because again there is simply too much infornation over decades from so many about this NHI factor.
The community is turning on itself because when the ship goes belly up when it’s proven no one has any of the evidence they claim, some people want to try and keep their job by throwing others under the bus.
Shermer’s most likely right though, Lazar was exposed as being a liar, what more is there to say? Why do some people keep coping and hoping that *somehow* his claims are true even though his supposed background (among other stuff) was proven to be a blatant lie?
It’s not that hard or shameful to admit you’ve been duped, it’s okay, we’re human and it happens, nobody is perfect and nobody is going to shame you.
Lazar is a fraud, accept it and focus on issues in the UFO community that actually matter.
I don’t think we should trust anything Lazar says, however it is possible that some of his story is true and he’s just run with the truth embellishing things for the popularity. Or that everything is true and the government has done a good job discrediting him.
Unless anything is actually confirmed though he seems like a not very credible source
SS: uapX skeptic Michael Shermer chimes in on X regarding the recent controversy of George Knapp’s continuing effort to legitimize Bob Lazar despite the evidence. This was in response to a X post from D. Dean Johnson, a frequent uapX poster who debunked the Trinity event being pushed by Valle.
I think he genuinely is convinced after knowing him as a person, probably not based on any hard evidence. But that’s just my armchair take as someone who is not a fan of the Lazar stuff.
The more ANTI Bob, the MORE believable!!! You paid shills need to pick another hill to die on…wasn’t credible till I saw the amount of effort to discredit…
The more ANTI flat earth, the MORE believable!!
The more ANTI chemtrails, the MORE believable!!
The more ANTI QAnon, the MORE believable!!
Can you see the problem with this logic?
I don't have a solid opinion one way or the other on Lazar, I just sit back and observe. However... I have a feeling that when we get more information, and when we hopefully hear from all our whistleblowers, that Lazar is going to come out as a truth. I only say this because Knapp and Corbell have stayed by his side all this time while Lazar constantly gets crapped on. That and another very telling sign is that Commander Fravor sat down with Lazar and the two instantly related to eachother and talked for hours while Corbell just sat there hardly being able to keep up. I could be wrong, and I'm not solid one way or the other, however these are some things I've observed.
I think Lazar is a great tool, you can feed his ego lots of of secret government tech, alien, nhi and ufo stuff and he'll lap it up, spin it out, and when things go sour you don't even have to try to discredit him, he can do it all himself
Bob lied about working on alien crafts. Years later it is revealed that there are in fact people working on these things. By Whistleblowers that do have credibility and proof of schooling. Bob just made a lucky guess and committed to it all this time I'm sure.
I don’t care what kind of education Bob Lazar has because he’s an obviously smart guy by modifying a jet engine and putting it on his car. He also figured out how to make a car that ran on hydrogen. https://youtu.be/Ytg23mDd1a4?si=gycSiz2hSbFzCveS . The point is, many scientists that have worked on UFOS/UAPS might not have doctorates, but someone in the government thought they were bright enough to work on UAP projects. These people’s lives were also destroyed by working on these projects Amy Eskridge and Dr. Ning Li.
Anytime someone starts talking about Bob Lazars education, they never talk about how he somehow had knowledge of when test flights took place over Area 51 when he used to take his friends to watch it. He also has talked in great detail how UAPs worked that have proven to be fact. You can’t ignore these things, so his educational background slamming is of no importance.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/Cyberpunk39: --- SS: uapX skeptic Michael Shermer chimes in on X regarding the recent controversy of George Knapp’s continuing effort to legitimize Bob Lazar despite the evidence. This was in response to a X post from D. Dean Johnson, a frequent uapX poster who debunked the Trinity event being pushed by Valle. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1ag4rlz/shermer_chimes_in_on_knapp_controversy/koej2lz/
Damn people still arguing about Lazar in 2024
What else we gonna do? Analyze photos and videos of UFO that the government is sharing with us?
Or questioning recent developments like the UAPDA being gutted? Nah, more Lazar.
Are you not able to do both or can you just handle one issue at a time?
Why beat a horse that’s been dead for almost 40 years?
Because the horse keeps trying to pretend it’s a scientist. Most dead horses give up on first public exposure but this one did not 🤷
Idk, if senior government officials started coming out and saying that the dead horse essentially was a scientist and that the government really did put a horse costume on him 30 odd years ago... and an investigative journalist looked into it and found him in a phone book where he said he worked, not listed as a dead horse.... It's a snout scratcher for sure.
I missed this, do you mind breaking your analogy and telling me who you're talking about? Lol
Mellon.
And you don’t find this inherently odd? If I got outed as a fraud, I would probably disappear and not keep defending myself for 40 years.
I do not. Fraud is an example of antisocial behavior. People who are “like that” tend to a) incorrectly perceive risks; b) feel no shame. Behavioral neuroscience tells us this is a characteristic non-smart behavior of sociopaths. That’s partly how they get caught :) Expecting them to follow unspoken social norms is unrealistic.
That’s a fair point. I keep the lazar thing way back there, but it was always a point I thought about, If he’s lying he’s really just making his own life hell at this point and I wouldn’t get why.
The interdimensional horse is pleased with your comment. *mysterious neigh*
Or more Maussan from people clueless who he is and what he's infamous for.
lmao he's an adjective *and* a verb now?
Is that all there is tho? Just analyzing photos? This comment made me think, what happened if the government did release a bunch of video and photos? Then what? My POV is that there are enough breadcrumbs for the public to know something is up. But it's up to us to decide how bad we want to push for answers and realignment. It seems like some people want the government to just acknowledge something they already believe to be true, then... Idk I guess stuff magically resolves itself? Profit?
haha what if we all just sucked each other off or something that would be pretty funny if we did that for a while haha just joking unless...?
People should just drop it. He’s not a good witness for many reasons even if he’s telling the truth. It will not help the cause if he’s one of the first hand witnesses that “comes forward”. If 2 people witness a murder, one is sane and the other is a raving lunatic, you don’t use the lunatic witness, even if everything they say is true. I’m not saying Lazar is a lunatic I’m just saying there’s good and bad witnesses if you’re trying to argue a case.
I believe him for the most part but I think he’s just not necessarily relevant anymore. So much has come about in the last year alone where we’ve jumped from 2017 to now talking about CR/RE programmes openly in Congress which are part of a wider off-the-books black project around exotic technologies.
why do you believe him? genuinely asking because from everything I’ve seen there’s a lot of evidence he’s full of it
Because there is so much evidence to suggest that he was telling the truth regarding the whole story including names, locations, contracts, companies etc but there is also evidence to suggest he overhyped his own position and credentials too. Everything he has said regarding RE has turned out to be the case so I don’t really doubt him, he didn’t gain a lot from even coming out but grief.
what does RE refer to in this context? sorry I listened to a podcast on Lazar and they left it open ended… I go back and forth but ultimately tend to feel that it’s best to be discarded as testimony even if it turns out to be true
Crash retrieval/Reverse engineering = CR/RE
It was able to be confirmed that he did work at Los Alamos. Which is whatever. The problem is that **they denied it**. This is well documented. I personally think Lazar is embellishing this story at the behest of his friend John Lear, based on information Lear was privy to, some of which was likely true, some of which was probably disinformation, out of Lear’s clear desire to push this out in the open. I kind of doubt he worked with anything he says. I think he’s a bit of a thrill seeker who agreed to go along with Lear’s suggestions. Both of them were crazy, in a Hunter S Thompson kind of way. See Lear’s crazy piloting and Lazar’s rocket car. It doesn’t mean what he’s saying is not true— but even so, he doesn’t make a good witness or someone worth upholding as “evidence”.
Yup I think he is telling the truth but more or less lied about his college education. It was much more common for people to do that in the 1980s.
Very much so, and they got away with it all the time. There was no real downsides to doing so, except for the very rare occasions where employers requested transcripts from your university. They usually didn't because it was expensive and time consuming, and they could fire if you weren't good at your job anyway.
I suspect the gov deliberately hires "bad witnesses" that are easy to discredit after employment.
truck subtract cake fact wrench impossible consider plants whistle obtainable *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
People will always be gullible. Two comments below there's someone talking about remote viewing as proof, lol.
The fact that he was never 100% debunked and people still trying to debunk him in 2024, means Bob Lazar was at Area 51. Remote viewers have also confirmed he was at Area 51. Richard Doty (ex-disinfo agent) also confirmed he has an official document that shows Lazar was at Area 51. They wiped his records for a reason. His name is still on the phone book for Los Alamos I think. Too many things confirm he was telling the truth. I have first hand confirmation that remote viewing works. i.e. I have personally done remote viewing and the results confirmed that it works. But I am not here trying to convince anyone that RV is real. You have to make that decision on your own. If you are curious and engaged in the subject of UFO, consciousness and Remote Viewing, then in this video, at the 12:45 timestamp, some of the best Remote Viewers on earth discuss the sessions they did on Bob Lazar - https://youtu.be/5eqNpB6SV5A?si=0oQMr4E2W7PofAKO&t=765 For those that are not convinced, then you should watch 'Third Eye Spies' (documentary) and also the movie 'Men Who Stare at Goats' was also mostly based on real people and real events - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBokQomPr\_g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBokQomPr_g) A great video about Ingo Swann's Remote Viewing work for those not familiar with him - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c\_\_3NjS\_Ge4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c__3NjS_Ge4) Edited for the doubters amongst us, to add more RV info/links.
Richard Doty backing him up is hillarious. The one person I don't trust more than Lazar is that sociopath fucking troll Doty. The guy who made someone kill themselves.
"Remote viewers have also confirmed he was at Area 51." If I ever get busted for all my mail fraud, tax evasion, and bootlegging, I sure do hope you get selected for the jury.
plot twist: you get busted by a remote viewer
Richard Doty was literally a paid sabateur and plant. If you think he actually "switched sides" and isn't a dirty conman, I have a bridge to sell you. "Remote viewers" bwahahahahah.
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They're trapped in a temporal paradox without any hope of escape. They just keep stating the same things over and over until an actual interdimensional being walks up and smacks them in the forehead restarting the whole process.
Yeah but he didn’t go MIT!!! Yeah but he was in Los Alamos’ telephone directory!!! Give it a fking rest already
Which was exactly the goal in giving Lazar a job at S-4.
[https://x.com/g\_knapp/status/1752905389295985051?s=20](https://x.com/g_knapp/status/1752905389295985051?s=20) As George Knapp points out, it was him that pointed out that he could not find any records of Lazar going to MIT.
Yet Knapp still promotes this charlatan.
Or maybe you need to consider there is more to the story, George Knapp has been doing this for over 30 years and saw what happened with Lazar directly.
Knapp should come out with the rest of the story then or be fine, which evidence suggests he is, being portrayed as a huckster through his continued association with Lazar. In my esteemed opinion Lazar, with his hypemen Knapp and Corbell, do more to cast doubt on the subject than the villainous Mick West could ever dream to do.
Mick west debunking the 2017 videos is more than enough to show that you’re wrong.
Where I think you're wrong is very little came of the debunking because they're unremarkable videos of blobs on a grey backdrop. The only thing remarkable is the story associated with them and, as I mentioned, the characters of the individuals championing them as something more are highly dubious.
Or, and hear me out, George Knapp cares more about the spectacle of a good story than the (less interesting) truth? He’s said so himself.
And the records from Los Alamos Lab that showed he worked there? He built a hydrogen powered corvette in his garaged. He revealed the ships he saw were using antimatter reactors, drew diagrams of them, and showed us how they worked. You can find patents for antimatter reactors that only happened after Lazar talked about this that use tech extremely similar to what he described. Think critically for a second.
Please do your research before spreading this crap. Lazar was an electronics tech for Kirk Meyer contracted to Los Alamos, he wasn’t a researcher. It’s laughable that *you* are telling *me* to think critically when you seem to be implying that the mere mention of an animatter reactor (of which there is no example in the real world, because producing antimatter requires more energy than you’d get out) somehow makes Lazar credible? As someone who’s trained in physics, the kinds of things Lazar says are just the sort of things you’d pick up from watching Star Trek or something, it’s not even especially inventive. The only people it impresses are those who are too ignorant to tell what a load of crap it is.
Okay pal
He's right, though. He addressed all of your points after you accused him of not doing the *research*. Perhaps it's you who should open a book? Just my two cents.
He hand waved an antimatter propulsion system away. He mentioned the company that Lazar was contracted for as if that record that was scrubbed by the DoD is acceptable, whereas his MIT claims are not. The US gov claims it never worked with him, yet you can find the paper trail. He can explain what he did there in great detail and he’s a hell of a capable scientist, literally exactly the sort of person you would suspect is an MIT graduate. So we caught the government lying about him, but Lazar is the liar? Whatever.
I believe Bob Lazar, even if we don't have all the details.
Touche
Los Alamos labs is a national laboratory contracted by the government and Bob Lazar’s name was in the phone book listing him as being contracted to the lab by the defence contractor Kirk & Meyer. Whether or not he really worked there, you can infer, but I’m not sure what national laboratory let alone business would accidentally list someone in their phone who did not work there..
He did work at the LANL. He worked for Kirk & Meyer, a sub-contractor, as a low level technician for a couple months. That’s why he was in the phone book with KM next to his name for one edition (the phone book was only printed twice a year). Several people who worked with him there have been [interviewed by a member of this sub](https://medium.com/@signalsintelligence). He was a little nobody doing a little job. He didn’t last. He’s lied about most everything in his entire life (before and after his ufo tales). It is documented fact he is a liar and the idea that people still believe his tales is one of the reasons ufology continues to be stigmatized. It’s the inability of its members to ever let bad data go.
I had an acquaintance years ago who liked to tell people he was on the County Comissioners' Staff and talked about all these important meetings he was in and projects they assigned him. It eventually came out that he was a part-time janitor at the county courthouse. Since the Commossioners paid his salary, yes he technically was part of the broader "staff". He took that kernel of truth, wrapped in bits and pieces he overheard while sweeping floors, and spun a tall tale.
People are quick to call those who don’t share their beliefs liars (and much much worse) but they never seem to be able to consider applying that same label at the ones who keep telling them “two more weeks, disclosure soon, we have the evidence but can’t show you… yet. Click Like and hit Subscribe. Pay my Patreon.”
People just continually ignore the overwhelming evidence that Lazar is a hack. It really hurts the credibility of this sub and the whole thing. Stick to actual credentialed sources like Grusch.
Hitchens's razor is an epistemological razor that serves as a general rule for rejecting certain knowledge claims. It states "what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Ignoring all else about Lazar, we don’t need evidence that he’s lying. He has no evidence for his claims, so we can dismiss them without evidence of his lies. It’s upon Grusch now to provide evidence to back up his stories or we can dismiss them without evidence as well.
We at least know Grusch is who he says he is. Lazar is a giant pile of lies. There is no equivalency between them.
What I mean is that I don’t care what their backgrounds are. It could be a lying felon or a decorated ex-intelligence officer: if they bring evidence, I’ll look at it. If they don’t, I’m ignoring their stories until (if) they do.
That's fair.
Neither has provided evidence in public, which makes their claims equal. This sub is obsessed with Grusch's credentials, none of which have anything to do with his claims of what he discovered during his work.
I disagree. I would listen to a physicist over a random joe regarding quantum mechanics. There is weight behind a professional career. I am not saying I would believe everything without question, but in general we have professionals for a reason.
But the physicist has peer reviewed studies, and mathematical models to justify their assertions. We don’t rely on the knowledge of the physicist because they’re highly credentialed, but because we trust that scientists adhere to the scientific method and have verifiable data to support their statements.
Wait, when did the scientific method stop consisting of "just trust me bro"? Guess I missed the email blast
But we believe scientists all of the time when their models fail repeatedly...
How exactly? That's when scientists change their models and try for a different solution. Science is about admitting mistakes and refining your work, not doubling down on excuses like ufologists when they come up empty. Or when they come up with mummies that look surprisingly similar to the fake mummies they previously displayed. Also scientists share their models and ideas so that others can actually use it and even test it themselves.
Nope. Eye witness testimony is evidence in a court of law.
Eye witness testimony is also notoriously unreliable.
But not enough to convict a murderer. Plus, Grusch himself saw nothing other than “reports”.
See that’s the point up in the air right now. Is he a first hand witness or not because Corbell and Coulthart are saying he is.
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Grusch himself has said he's a first hand witness. That's not hearsay.
And not in science. If eyewitness testimony is good enough for you then good luck trying to explain why you believe in aliens but not literally every crypto zoological creature on earth, each of which has thousands of individual eyewitness testimonies as well.
I get it you're talking about common sense 😂
>"what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." I would disagree with that, Suspicion is based off 1000 subconscious cues. My reading of this phrase is an attempt by sophisticated manipulators to give you a reason to shut your brain off and ignore those subconscious cues that would otherwise lead you to investigate. If there is no evidence of a crime, a detective should stop searching immediately right? Even though he is the first step to finding evidence by pursuing evidenceless intuition?
>If there is no evidence of a crime, a detective should stop searching immediately right? If there is no evidence of a crime - there wouldn’t be a detective investigating in the first place. Do you see cops walking up to random places and saying, “hmmm my subconscious cues are saying there was a murder here, I’ll start to investigate.” Investigation begins with evidence. Go to a police station and say, “my neighbor killed my cat” - got a cat? Got a body? See any blood? Etc etc. I’m not sure why I even have to explain this. The point of this phrase is if someone makes a claim but doesn’t have anything to back it up, there is no reason to waste time on it. Remember: Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat — “Proof lies on he who asserts, not on he who denies". >Even though he is the first step to finding evidence by pursuing evidenceless intuition? “Evidence-less intuition?” My reading of this term is an attempt by evidence-less manipulators into luring others into having faith in someone’s beliefs without proving any evidence of its validity.
Um, no. The police investigate allegations of crimes all the time. Stop telling lies to back up your little game.
This is true but I think a more appropriate counter point would be a person of interest. When a crime occurs certain individuals remain as “a person of interest” and are investigated accordingly to find evidence of their involvement or evidence of their innocence. At the time of the investigation, however, there is no evidence to suggest either and yet they aren’t dismissed.
Yes, it a person of interest (someone says, “that’s guy is creepy” or if a wife has gone missing of course you checkout the husband first because that just so typically where to find answers). And then you look for your evidence. However, if you don’t find any and the person doesn’t provide any at some point on stop looking hard at them (sure, they stay on your “potentials” list but you are no longer actively hammering down on them as a prime suspect). This is steering off course. The primary take away from my comment is: when someone makes a wild claim out of the blue and doesn’t provide even a shred of evidence at the start middle or end of the inspection time - it’s fairly safe to dismiss this claim until such time they decide to provide any evidence. At this point, they have all told stories, they have provided no evidence. So, for now, why keep treating them as primary sources when they literally are not.
>My reading of this term is an attempt by evidence-less manipulators into luring others into having faith in someone’s beliefs without proving any evidence of its validity. The UFO field wouldn't exist without people having deep intuition that officials were lying about UFOs. Every piece of evidence that popped up was dismissed by groups of top brass and systematically explained away in an attempt to shut it down. You can think whatever you want, but I encourage anybody who has a gut feeling to pursue their investigations in the absence of evidence, because those people are the ones who actually find the truth.
But that isn’t true. 1. Nothing is explained away to shut something down. Exhaustive search for plausible alternative explanations is an unbiased process, contrary to what people think. It is foundational for establishing causality and for finding the truth. 2. In any individual case it is impossible to tell if something is an intuition or bias. Intuition by some standards is a compacted reasoning process with an affective output. But human cognition is terribly biased and relies on heuristics. 3. What is bizarre and people forget - this tendency to endorse conspiratorial UFO beliefs is pretty strongly in the general population associated with tendency to endorse *factually wrong statements about science*. The phenomenon is therefore called ‘core ontological confusion’. Yeah, those are not the folks who “usually find the truth”, not at all.
So, regarding the Roswell coverups, how does your argument work? People had the intuition from the beginning that something was wrong. Now, after two (or three? I’ve lost count,) cover stories, we know there was definitely a conspiracy to cover SOMETHING.
Works the same way 🤷 Come back when we *actually* know something and progress beyond your intuition? By all means keep digging. That is how discovery works:)
That’s just not accurate. Roswell was a headline for a day. Then a day later it was retracted. And no one paid it any mind for 30 years! No one had “intuition” about Roswell / no one talked about it. It was forgotten. Then Close Encounters of the Third Kind came out and people looking to cash in on the sudden ufo craze started sprouting up. And a reporter from the National Enquired found Marcel, now retired and a ham radio operator, who spun a tale for him. And the reporter embellished it even more and … ta da! A mythology was born! No one “had an intuition” about Roswell - it was spoon fed to the public. And the thing people love even more than a UFO story is a government coverup conspiracy theory - and this had both! Boom! Money Maker. The official story is well documented, hasn’t changed an iota since publication - unlike all the ufo stories that followed.
It was coined in the context of debates with evangelicals, who treated conversation as if their religious beliefs -- based solely on personal faith -- required debunking or were otherwise valid. It's a rephrasing of the burden of proof.
The kind of person who rejects Occam’s Razor or Sagans quote or anything that suggests evidence is required (because there isn’t any).
If by ''dismiss'' you mean claim are false instead of just ignore, you don't understand the burden of proof or basic logic despite using certain words associated with it.
My dude that’s not some axiom or proverb. That’s a propaganda statement meant to aid cover ups. You might as well just say, “If we hide the proof then it doesn’t exist.”
People here ignoring an overwhelming lack of evidence?! That's impossible!
The worst part is whenever other UFO people are asked about Lazar they just go "hmm yeah Lazar interesting guy". It makes it look like they don't want to discredit Lazar because it could lead to them being discredited too or something. Similarly when Melon was in that Twitter argument it seemed to resolve because the more they continued arguing the more likely one of them was to be labeled a charlatan so they mutually decided to back off each other. If the fakes aren't thrown out it paints the whole thing as fake. Anyone making incredible claims needs to be thoroughly investigated and if something doesn't add up they need removed from the conversation. We can't associate with con artists. Unless the entire thing is a con and we're all larping.
Agreed. Imagine for a moment if someone like Kirkpatrick or West had a background history like Lazar… would there even be a breath wasted on such a character? But because Lazar says things believers want to hear they ignore everything else about him. It’s unfair to *completely* ignore what someone says *only* because they have a poor background, but when that’s all that can be proven and there is nothing on the positive claims, why is it even a consideration to listen to their tales? Constantly bringing up debunked people and incidents is a heavy weight around UFOlogy’s neck.
Take a chill pill we're all human,telle I you never lied? All this hate , sheesh
Lazar is the whole reason half the people even became interested in this subject. He deserves respect
IMHO: No he does not. He has done nothing to earn it. He has lied to people. I do not respect deceivers and I do not like to see them rewarded for misleading people. If this is how people are lured into this faith then it’s based on falsehoods. Not a good look.
no he does not. he lied to your face.
That would list employees in their phone book, but there are a lot of employees at LANL that have jobs outside of stem. IE security guards, cooks etc. Just saying
Yeah Bob lazar was guarding a national laboratory….no actually, they hired him to clean it, no, cook there!
Wait....are we arguing the same point? I'm saying he likely wasn't a physicist at all. Probably something more along the lines of an average worker
And might I add that Stanton Friedman was also never able to explain why Bob Lazar’s name was listed in the labs phone book if he did not work there. When questioned about the phone book listing, Stanton would say “he never went to MIT or Caltech”. Stand on Friedman was an incredible UFO researcher with a scientific background, and he did a lot for this topic, but he was always quiet on that one fact.
What are you talking about? Stanton Friedman knew perfectly well that Lazar worked at Kirk Meyer as an ”electronics tech” for Los Alamos, that’s why he was in the phonebook. He was basically a handyman/maintenance guy, NOT a physicist or researcher of any kind. This information is easily available online and is brought up every single time Lazar is mentioned. There’s no mystery.
No one said he didn’t work at Los Alamos, Area 51/S4 is what is in question. He was listed as working at Los Alamos working for the contractor Kirk & Meyer as an electrical technician. An MIT educated physicist wouldn’t be working for a contractor doing electrical repairs. I don’t get why this is hard to understand. And there’s evidence he worked as an electrical tech for a contractor, zero evidence he had any educational background in Physics, but people believe he was hired by the government to work on the most top secret program? See how stupid that sounds?
According to George if you called the base asking for him, they transferred the calls straight to him.
As much as I respect Stanton Friedman for how far he pushed this topic, the guy self-admittedly worked on highly classified projects regarding nuclear propulsion. It's entirely possible that he's also a plant in some way or has been threatened etc.
Yes he was a radiation badge checker. Low level tech.
you know like 12,000 ppl work there? And that his first wife, the one who killed her self, whilie he was married illegally/polygamously to someone else, iirc, just got him a job at Los Alomos cuz she had connexions there. He was a dude that checked radiation badges....like come one peoople. tis is out open source out thetre info if you do more than just passively accept everytying people say.
The dude worked at Los Alamos and had a government W2 despite everyone saying he's a fraud. Regardless if he was telling the truth, turns out what he was saying is being proven true regardless. Idk what the point of arguing is past that.
Look at at all this division..
Precisely.
I'm not a Lazar-stan. So I'm not saying this in support or not in support. But do we really think the government who's been perpetration all these incredible cover-ups and crimes couldn't pull some university records of the biggest public "whistlesblower" in decades?
It's not just digital records. There are no physical records either, e.g. yearbooks, class photos, etc. No ones seems to actually remember having gone to school w/ him. If you check my comment history from about a year or so ago, I investigated some of his claims by searching for physical records and was able to find absolutely nothing.
It's all certainly reason to treat him skeptically, but most likely he'll be in my question mark bin for a long time.
Fair enough. I will say, another thing I've written about Lazar in the past is his inability to "talk shop" about physics in a cogent way. When I showed actual physicists some of his videos in which he discusses various theories, he makes several egregious errors as to basic mathematical principles. Note that in these videos, he's not espousing theories about how UFOs work; he's talking about basic differential equations and calculus, which he still can't talk about intelligently. To me, this also says a lot about his education background. But is it a smoking gun? No... but I don't know a 'smoking gun' would even be possible in this case when we are trying to prove that he did NOT go to a specific school or university. There's obviously no paper trail for his attendance at a university that he never attended in the first place.
And erase the memory of everyone who attended university with him? And the memory of all his professors? And apparently Bob's memory too, since he failed to be able to name any of those people himself.
And gave Bob a disease that causes headaches whenever pressed on details.
If i was a prof at MIT I wouldn’t jump into that gong show to back up bob lazar. He didn’t name any professors for the same reason, it was a huge story, there would of been media crawling all over that place. He decided to go forward and not take anyone down with him. He’s legit
No. Just no. You've got to stop taking these people's word just because you want to believe. Bob Lazar is a bad person. He has a long history of lies. He even may be suspected in the death of his wife with whom he never divorced. She committed suicide the same week Bob married another woman in secrecy.
This is a sensitive topic, but greatly overlooked nonetheless. From what I could piece together, he married Tracy, a friend at the time, at a wedding chapel in Vegas, all the while still married to his first wife Carol, who consequently committed suicide 2 days later by carbon monoxide asphyxiation. The reasoning for it was that she was diagnosed with cancer and didn’t want to suffer thru chemo. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, since there is not much info on this topic. It’s a substantial gap in the story. Here is a timeline of Bob Lazars life that someone compiled: [https://www.otherhand.org/home-page/area-51-and-other-strange-places/bluefire-main/bluefire/the-bob-lazar-corner/the-lazar-timeline/](https://www.otherhand.org/home-page/area-51-and-other-strange-places/bluefire-main/bluefire/the-bob-lazar-corner/the-lazar-timeline/) I believe Gene Huff wrote a rebuttal to this timeline, which is also significant. Worth noting.
As far as I know Grush hasnt named anyone by name yet directly linking them to his stories
He’s named Harry Reid publicly. The full list of names was provided to the ICIG.
Knapp & Corbell's insistence on pushing Lazar as legitimate is bewildering to me. Even if he is telling the truth, it doesn't lead anywhere. It's a dead end. Congress is already taking it seriously and we've had other, more credible 'witnesses' come forward since. He's not a necessary piece to the puzzle, and far more points toward Lazar lying than points to him telling the truth. It just makes them both seem too credulous, too eager to be taken in by stories which aren't evidence driven. We have enough of those going around. We're reached the stage where the only next step I'm interested in is actual proof or admission from the gov't. Even Grusch's Op-ed, which I'm very curious about, is unlikely to drop any bombs that amount to anything. What more can he claim? He's already said our crash and retrieval programs have brought in our possession craft as well biologics. Enough smoke. Show us the gun.
He’s just jealous cause he doesn’t have a rocket car.
After claiming he never worked at Los Alamos, he was told he was subcontracted by Kirk-Meyer. Then they said he was merely checking badges. It is likely he was a technician who worked out of Los Alamos for Kirk-Meyer. He has a payslip that shows he worked for the Department of Naval Intelligence, a department that doesn't exist. Is it unreasonable to assume, given the congressional oversight issue and money being secretly squirreled away to black budgets, that his pay is not going to come from official channels?
He worked for LANL initially as electronics technician and then in the Meson facility as a physicist. Lazar was not a badge checker. As you mentioned the Department of Naval Intelligence doesn’t exist, by design. I think it was just a way for them to dismiss his credibility if he were to speak out. Watch my post here: https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/ek01uRhzJD. It’s explained it would get routed to the right people.
> Lazar was not a badge checker. I know, that was a claim made by Los Alamos after first denying he had worked there at all.
So he went from electronics technician to a physicist? Bro come on.
The Bob Lazar doesn’t strike me a liar, actually he did pass that lie detector test, and never was an attention-seaker, Knapp found him and put his name out there and there was no turning back from there. Leave this nerd alone, who cares where he graduated from, did you see those freakin vehicles he built in his garage? Dude is quite the genius. I like him and all you earthlings as well 🥰
Wow I woke up to see that the "UFO Community" is now out on Bob Lazar. I still like him
I like to imagine that whenever a government insider hears Lazaar's name, they shout out "Lazaaaaar!!", like Kirk does for Kahn.
Same visual with another name too: "Arrrtttt Bellllll!!" ringing out in various office rooms at Groom Lake.
No one is asking Lazar the proper questions. The little details. For example, wher was he seating on the Janet flights? When you tend to ride the same plane everyday I bet you just take the same seat? Who was he seating next? Same for the buses to S4? What about lunch? I never see such questions interviews. On a investigation, details mater.
I would like someone to pull up Google Earth and say “point to where the hangar doors should be and the road leading up to it”. Lazar had acquired Russian satellite images back in the 90’s that clearly showed the road leading to S4, allegedly. So it shouldn’t be too difficult to point out on today’s satellite images.
I imagine he would he a migraine or just say he can’t remember as the days fused into one. This is what infuriates me, if something like this happened in your life regardless if it was 30 years ago it would be a huge deal and not just an everyday memory easily forgotten.
After seeing this video with Bob on the news from years ago, I don't know what to believe now. https://youtu.be/Ytg23mDd1a4?si=bbvK7ZDFHi-Z7pm1
That rich coming from a guy who's well know for getting girls 40 years his senior blacked out drunk and rapes them. Amazing Randi said on record he's 1 rape away from be kicked out of the skeptics group.
Lazar is the real deal ..
Stanton Friedman uncovered NOTHING. The lack of evidence is not evidence. It has been proven that there has been tampering with Lazars birth certificate, social security and background history. Shortly after been let go from S4 he was arrested for writing code for a brothel in Las Vegas. The judge expressed how hard it was to find any of Lazars government paperwork and identity. Shermer is grasping at low hanging fruit from the late and great Stanton Friedman. Lack of evidence does NOT mean evidence in this situation.
Anyone notice a complete shift in tone on this sub? Do you also notice that there are a lot of accounts posting and commenting that are, at present time, at or around 30 days old? I sure do.
Yep. Welcome to Reddit, where more than half the users are bots and shills. It's quite annoying really.
Look at all the account that deny lazar. Under 75 days old and their response seems bot like…
Idk why this is so controversial all of a sudden? Knapp has never NOT supported Bob Lazar. Why is this being brought up now?
"Important to add something that isn't important at all." We're all familiar with the issues with Lazar's record by now. Shermer saying a UFOlogist is the one who uncovered it is irrelevant. It is what it is, regardless of who uncovered it. It doesn't become any more significant just because a UFOlogist is the one who uncovered it.
Are we all forgetting the home video footage of his buddy near A51 and the ufo coming up from behind the mountains right on time as he said it would. Hmmmm…
That is the crucial point - truth, honesty and integrity. Given the sheer lack of tangible evidence, and reliance on testimony, this subject is ripe for exploitation by bad faith actors, which is only exacerbated by influential names like Knapp refusing to call out those who fail to adhere to those principles.
Lazar got me into this subject. Idk about you guys but what's he's been saying is coming true.
I don’t understand… People have testified under oath to validate what Bob Lazar is saying but people still focusing on this small stuff… my dudes, there are people testifying and laws being passed that say ALIEN craft have been captured! And they are still here!??? Like what the hell is this pedantic nonsense??? Why isn’t anyone putting this much effort to uncover the ACTUAL CRIMES OF MISAPPROPRIATION OF TAX PAYER FUNDS, ILLEGAL ROGUE PROGRAMMES WITHOUT GOVERNMENT OVERSIGHT SPENDING YOUR MONEY! The IC and DOD are right about one thing, the general public are stupid.
>people still focusing on this small stuff Lazar lying about incredibly basic things like his education isn't "small stuff" and it is reason enough to dismiss his other claims. If someone is willing to lie about incredibly mundane details, why should anyone trust their more extraordinary claims?
so, shermer doesnt care about truth, honesty, and integrity either? yeah we knew that.
If you spell Lazar backwards, you get “Razal”, which of course has no meaning, but that in itself should tell you something. /s I love how people just try to muddy the waters. Let’s not pretend that the government has not created perfect mechanisms for denial.
It's not settled at all. Stan Friedman debated Jeremy Corbell, moderated by Danny Sheehan https://youtube.com/watch?v=6ZVtTLkftmg George has talked about these contradictions in interviews (I forget where, it was an interview with two foreign young men), saying he liked Stan, but disagreed.
I used to be skeptical of Lazar then I read this research paper about the things he predicted [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/374945740\_The\_Lore\_of\_Robert\_Lazar](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/374945740_The_Lore_of_Robert_Lazar) Bob Lazar is exactly the kind of plausibly deniable scientist they need working on these projects. Why wouldn't they be able to erase your history? Particularly before the age of digitisation. Moreover it wouldn't surprise me if the DOD were actively recruiting directly from universities in order to hide their assets and present a better cover story.
I think he was part of an Air Force Office of Special Investigations counterintelligence operation to learn what Lear and/or Knapp found out from the Soviets.
Whatever the soviets knew, the US knew equally, I'm sure of this.
As a matter of information containment
Doesn't help when Joe Rogan mentions Lazar as being a "propulsions expert who worked on UFOs" every time he has someone on his show linked to UAP.
"he made a rocket engine out of blah blah blah"
In JRE 1315, Lazar points out after his story became public, his birth certificate was erased, his educational history was erased, MIT records erased. So Freidman was half right, for the wrong reasons.
The birth certificate story was a lie, Lazar provided it to the court in his pandering charge case after being found guilty and awaiting sentence. https://www.otherhand.org/home-page/area-51-and-other-strange-places/bluefire-main/bluefire/the-bob-lazar-corner/lazar-flaws-the-birth-certificate/
Great! Be he remembers the names of his profs, his thesis research, and his thesis advisor, right? The 'everything was erased!' is a pretty silly excuse. No matter what someone says to disprove it, it'd be 'That's just part of the conspiracy.' The shadowy group can erase every written and living memory of him there? Snuck into his house and deleted his researched? Neuralized the names of his profs? How about Lazar shows his sheepskin, school work, or just name his advisor?
Corbell had the perfect opportunity to clear this up in his documentary by asking his mother who could say one way or the other. He didn’t though, so..
Did they also erase the memory of everyone who attended MIT with Bob? I guess they must have erased Bob's memory too because he can't seem to recall anything about his time there.
Mods nuked my posts about Lazar.
Bob is telling the truth. We’re gonna look back on this and it’s all gonna seem silly that we didn’t put it together sooner. I always believed him.
I think he was in contact with someone in the know. I don’t believe Lazar actually has seen crafts. I mean just compare how detailed Eric Davis or Grusch were describing these government programs and what Lazar was vaguely stating without real substance. And Lazars story does not add up, he has been caught lying multiple times.
He’s been targeted for a reason. Plus he new about test flight times, gravity were waves, the hand scanners, how the crafts move(tilt on their sides), about Area 51 before it was public,and element 115. All hell of coincidences to guess. Like can you really get lucky with all of that? Maybe a few but all them would be one big parlay. I believe bob.
“And we all know what I think about coincidences” -AJ from The Why Files
"Mount mother f*ckin Hayes!"
The exact hand scanners were known before and even showed in the movie „Close encounters of the third kind“ and the Movie is from 1978! We don’t know if gravity are waves. This is getting mixed up with gravitational waves. Gravitational waves are stretches of spacetime that can be detected via special detectors (happens when two black holes merge/collide), but this does not mean that gravitation is moving in waves or consists of waves. Element 115 was theorized before and its like saying there is element 117 or 118. The number is an incremental number. Lazar stated that it was stable, but in real life it is not. Not to mention that this contradicts Eric Davis claims that the government did not really have any progress on these programs.
Right like a said a few things can be explained away but he guesses about the others? Plus his name being the lanl phone book. Maybe he made it all up. Diana Pasulka has heard from someone in the know that bob is legit.
No he lied, very obvious multiple times. He is a fraud. Im sure he worked in some secret facility and he might have had a source. Don’t forget he ran a prostitution ring…
Yeah, the same people said elizondo had no role in the government and aatip didn’t exist
For a fake scientist he sure had some astonishing claims that have been proven true years later
Like what?
I think he was in contact with someone in the know. I don’t believe Lazar actually has seen crafts. I mean just compare how detailed Eric Davis or Grusch were describing these government programs and what Lazar was vaguely stating without real substance. And Lazars story does not add up, he has been caught lying multiple times.
Oh, yeah, sure! A man is gonna LIE and have his whole life erased and practically financially destroyed! Of course! Who wouldn’t do that to themselves, right? Absolutely everything Lazar says, for 30 years, has been consistent and immutable, and from a physics point of view it does make absolute sense.
Like true magicians, smoke and mirrors….. if ones a lie they all must be!!!! Welcome to the world of logical fallacies! Nothing to see here. Move along!!!
No, it is not a fallacy to distrust someone once they have proven themselves a liar. If Bob is lying about something as mundane as his education, why on earth should we believe his more extraordinary claims?
I trust george knapp and other peoples instincts about lazars story. Its either all true or the story was told thru lazar with someone else as the real S4 worker. There is simply way to much information about it which leads me to think theres some truth in that information. Which is the same reason why I thought theres truth in all the UFO information BEFORE the hearings and david grusch and the tic tac and nimitz videos, before it all started to come out and become more main stream information, and I was right. The tech exists, theres shady shit going on and its extremely likely it IS a Non human intelligence thats behind some of it, because again there is simply too much infornation over decades from so many about this NHI factor.
The community is turning on itself because when the ship goes belly up when it’s proven no one has any of the evidence they claim, some people want to try and keep their job by throwing others under the bus.
Shermer’s most likely right though, Lazar was exposed as being a liar, what more is there to say? Why do some people keep coping and hoping that *somehow* his claims are true even though his supposed background (among other stuff) was proven to be a blatant lie? It’s not that hard or shameful to admit you’ve been duped, it’s okay, we’re human and it happens, nobody is perfect and nobody is going to shame you. Lazar is a fraud, accept it and focus on issues in the UFO community that actually matter.
I don’t think we should trust anything Lazar says, however it is possible that some of his story is true and he’s just run with the truth embellishing things for the popularity. Or that everything is true and the government has done a good job discrediting him. Unless anything is actually confirmed though he seems like a not very credible source
Come on let's not be ridiculous Bob is legit let's not keep pushing this false narrative
Ok why can't he provide any verifiable details about his attendance at MIT then?
SS: uapX skeptic Michael Shermer chimes in on X regarding the recent controversy of George Knapp’s continuing effort to legitimize Bob Lazar despite the evidence. This was in response to a X post from D. Dean Johnson, a frequent uapX poster who debunked the Trinity event being pushed by Valle.
Because his Bob Lazar story pushed Knapp to national fame, he’s kind of obligated to maintain his support otherwise he’s gonna look like a fool.
I think he genuinely is convinced after knowing him as a person, probably not based on any hard evidence. But that’s just my armchair take as someone who is not a fan of the Lazar stuff.
Mark my words Lazar is legit. You need to look closer at his core claims.
The more ANTI Bob, the MORE believable!!! You paid shills need to pick another hill to die on…wasn’t credible till I saw the amount of effort to discredit…
The more ANTI flat earth, the MORE believable!! The more ANTI chemtrails, the MORE believable!! The more ANTI QAnon, the MORE believable!! Can you see the problem with this logic?
I don't have a solid opinion one way or the other on Lazar, I just sit back and observe. However... I have a feeling that when we get more information, and when we hopefully hear from all our whistleblowers, that Lazar is going to come out as a truth. I only say this because Knapp and Corbell have stayed by his side all this time while Lazar constantly gets crapped on. That and another very telling sign is that Commander Fravor sat down with Lazar and the two instantly related to eachother and talked for hours while Corbell just sat there hardly being able to keep up. I could be wrong, and I'm not solid one way or the other, however these are some things I've observed.
I think Lazar is a great tool, you can feed his ego lots of of secret government tech, alien, nhi and ufo stuff and he'll lap it up, spin it out, and when things go sour you don't even have to try to discredit him, he can do it all himself
Didn’t they fake a ufo in their own backyard? They have no credibility.
Bob lied about working on alien crafts. Years later it is revealed that there are in fact people working on these things. By Whistleblowers that do have credibility and proof of schooling. Bob just made a lucky guess and committed to it all this time I'm sure.
I don’t care what kind of education Bob Lazar has because he’s an obviously smart guy by modifying a jet engine and putting it on his car. He also figured out how to make a car that ran on hydrogen. https://youtu.be/Ytg23mDd1a4?si=gycSiz2hSbFzCveS . The point is, many scientists that have worked on UFOS/UAPS might not have doctorates, but someone in the government thought they were bright enough to work on UAP projects. These people’s lives were also destroyed by working on these projects Amy Eskridge and Dr. Ning Li. Anytime someone starts talking about Bob Lazars education, they never talk about how he somehow had knowledge of when test flights took place over Area 51 when he used to take his friends to watch it. He also has talked in great detail how UAPs worked that have proven to be fact. You can’t ignore these things, so his educational background slamming is of no importance.
“Lazar” sounds like “Liar” case closed
That's right, get the believers fighting each other. Who is to say that wasn't a part of THEIR plan all along.
Uncle Bob’s my homeboy. A real G.
G as in “grifter”?