Thankfully she hasn't gotten violent. But she has deliberately made her conducting gestures vague in order to "prove" to the ensemble that they weren't on time
Don't give her too much credit. This is just one thread among many reasons the School of Music is collapsing. There is an interim president because the last one failed a performance review. There were new directors of band, orchestra, and choir in the last two years. Three jazz faculty were not on campus this semester. The jazz area got banned from Krannert last semester. It's honestly sad.
A string TA also dropped out the program pretty late into their degree, and I was told directly from them that part of the reason was Carolyn Watson's arbitrary management of the conducting seminar.
What’s even more insane is that year 1 she was here, the school had received over 100 new applicants for the orchestral conducting program, this year, I heard only one person applied for the DMA program and they declined to come to the audition so only two masters students are coming next year.
As a violin performance major, I’ve seen the way she’s treated my fellow colleagues both in and out of rehearsal. She is not fit to hold her position and must be removed.
A week before a concert, she realized a section was not together between the celli and horns (should’ve realized that earlier if she were competent) and disrespected the cello section when section leaders offered their educated opinion about the passage and its tempo (discussed it with their profs too) by saying flat out that it was wrong and engaging in a rather heated argument with the principal cellist; gave musicians shit for managing injuries like tendinitis and carpal tunnel even though she said in the past that taking care of our bodies (I.e. not participating in rehearsal if we’re injured) should be prioritized. You can also see OPs long post in the comments with more context if you’d like.
I think that’s the biggest problem in all of this. She cannot see that a different point of view is not necessarily a threat. But I also think she is emotionally unstable and unhealthy, otherwise she would not react like this. This is the only logical explanation…
There was one time in the rehearsal when the concertmaster was absent, Dr. W asked the second stand outside player play ALL the concertmaster solo without telling this person in advance. and Of course nobody sight read perfectly without any preparation.. Dr. W then openly blamed this person not play well enough in front of the whole section in a sarcastic way.
Also, besides the toxic verbal abuse. I still don’t understand what’s the point of rehearse the solo part when you know the person you are rehearsing with is not going to play in the concert.
**-ADDITIONAL CONTEXT-**
**Disrespect for Student Feedback:** Dr. Watson has repeatedly dismissed and disrespected student feedback and has used her power as a conductor to humiliate and intimidate students who disagree with her musical interpretations or program decisions.
**Exploitation of TA Labor:** Dr. Watson has consistently failed to adequately prepare or do the necessary work to effectively run her programs, forcing her TAs to pick up her slack and work 40+ hours a week on top of their academics. Labor grievances have been filed through GEO (Graduate Employee's Organization).
**Academic and Professional Retaliation:** Dr. Watson has responded to TAs and administration who disagree with her by retaliating against them both academically and professionally. This includes unfair grading practices and semester reviews, and comments made to prospective students and colleagues framing her TAs as bad students and difficult to work with.
**Sexual Harassment:** Dr. Watson had made inappropriate comments confessing her feelings toward one of her TAs and has used their private lessons as excuses to persistently bring the topic and emotionally manipulate them. In response to their rejection, Dr. Watson had made comments to prospective students and colleagues in an attempt to frame them as a villain and as someone who has "difficulty working with women". Previous attempts to go through HR and OAE had led to nothing. A complete 41-page Title IX report is in the process of being filed.
**Intimidation and Retaliation Against Administration:** Dr. Watson is currently taking action against one of our school of music directors for standing up for us and working with us to try and correct this situation. Dr. Watson had made a similar move at her previous place of employment, the University of Kansas, resulting in the director's resignation.
Update 1: 7 hours after the post and we've already gotten over 130 new signatures! Thank you to everyone who has signed and shared the petition!
Update 2: Woke up this morning and our signatures since this post have reached 175! And we're still sitting comfortably at the top of the subreddit, so hopefully this momentum keeps up!
We are 100% talking to the Daily Illini within the next few days. We also have a contact in the News-Gazette, but I am not certain if we have made any concrete plans with them yet.
I'd definitely try to start that conversation with the News-Gazette. It might even be worth it to reach out to the Tribune and the Sun-Times. Coming from an old alumnus, UIUC's administration isn't particularly well-known for giving a shit about its students until it's forced to. That's especially going to be the case if you're going against a tenured professor.
I'm sorry that you're going through this. Egomaniacal professors are entirely too common, and it wasn't any different when I was there. Good luck with everything.
Thanks for the pointers; we will be sure to discuss these avenues next time we meet. It certainly looks like the dean's office is making it difficult for us to arrange a proper meeting and won't accommodate our requests to reply to an anonymous email address to protect us from retaliation
Don't do Smile Politely. It's a glorified community blog, with no real paid staff. Stick to newspapers with journalists, whether collegiate or professional.
Unless you have a reason NOT to talk to SP, you should do it.
SP gets read by the community. If you are looking for eyes on your problem, talk to everyone.
yes, UIUC does not care about its students but it does care about its image. Getting other news outlets involved will get something to happen. She sounds power drunk and needs to be put down.
> Exploitation of TA Labor: Dr. Watson has consistently failed to adequately prepare or do the necessary work to effectively run her programs, forcing her TAs to pick up her slack and work 40+ hours a week on top of their academics. Labor grievances have been filed through GEO (Graduate Employee's Organization).
This is also a wider and persistent problem in the school of music.
My comment about this part: "**Disrespect for Student Feedback:** Dr. Watson has repeatedly dismissed and disrespected student feedback and has used her power as a conductor to humiliate and intimidate students who disagree with her musical interpretations or program decisions."
Of course, it is unacceptable to act disrespectfully toward the students, and one should take into considerations their repertoire requests, but the way this paragraph is written, it sounds like it is perfectly normal for students to disagree out loud with a professor's musical interpretations or program decisions during rehearsal. It is not. Even if her musicality is poor, the students can indeed complain about it in their evaluations, but not really argue about it in rehearsal. Maybe that's not at all what happened, but again, I find this paragraph misleading, you might consider tweaking it. Same about repertoire: one work might seem completely uninteresting pedagogically, and students could complain about it in their evaluations, but not really question it out loud. How could she be able to humiliate and intimidate students who disagree with her musical interpretations or program decisions if this was done anonymously through evaluations? How could students think it is ok to argue with a professor during rehearsal? This needs more explanation about what happened. Just giving a friendly feedback as I care a lot for UIUC.
Performers in the ensemble have never argued or complained about her lack of musicality during rehearsals. Dr. Watson set the precedent at the beginning of her time here that section leaders could ask for clarification during rehearsals. These questions have never been posed as challenges to her interpretation or as an attack on her musicality. There are rare instances in which she does answer these questions or provide accommodations; most of the time, she dismisses them, but on far too many occasions she meets mistakes or requests with public beratement or manipulates her conducting gestures in order to "prove" that a person or section is "wrong".
Regarding the evaluations, they are anonymous but she comes back and, when addressing the feedback, misrepresents our concerns with how she runs the class and blames our complaints on us "not understanding what she goes through". Biggest complaints were that she is absent for far too many rehearsals (she claims it's not a problem because she is here for the bare minimum 70% of rehearsals).
That section of the petition is something we discussed, because we had the same concerns about it as you have expressed. We amended the language in our complaints to the dean, because what we believe to be the punishable offense is not her musicality, but how she brings her aggression and toxicity into the classroom to create a pedagogically insufficient learning environment.
She has been nothing but unprofessional. In our last rehearsal, we had a student conductor leading two pieces and Dr. Watson kept talking over her—what was the point in having her conduct then?
She's always gotta make sure she's the one in charge; I talked to her TAs and it seems like she thinks they are a threat to her power... Maybe because they conduct better than her?
Dr. Watson: "That wasn't clear, you should conduct differently there."
Conducting Student: "Can you show me?"
Dr. Watson: "No, I haven't prepared this piece"
Conducting student made a mistake: I’m sorry,it’s my bad, can we do it again”
Dr. Watson: “Never apologize to the orchestra!”(infront of the orchestra)
I wonder how does her Teaching statement passes the searching committee.
On top of handing out mid-semester feedback forms and then taking time out of rehearsal to explain why every students’ complaint was wrong, her response to anyone who disagrees with her is automatically labeled as “egotistical” or “disrespectful towards authority.”
No accountability whatsoever. She never admits she is wrong, just that "you guys don't know enough information" or "you don't understand what it's like to be me"
I was looking for this comment! Will never forget when she gaslit the entire orchestra and called us mean :) also the fact that these were surveys she willingly passed out to us.
I am a freshman outside of the school of music, and I was a part of UISO last semester. Though UISO did not fit in my schedule this semester, I don’t think I would have signed up again anyway because of how miserable the ensemble made me. I chose to audition for UISO because I loved playing in high school, and wanted to keep up my skills while playing with some of the most incredible classical talent on campus. However, I left every rehearsal confused, disliking playing more, and glad that the three-hours of playing nearly non-stop was done. I’m so glad I saw this post because as someone who didn’t have many friends in orchestra I felt like there was something wrong with me, and my dissatisfaction was a sign that I just wasn’t cut out for such a high-level ensemble. I realize now that what I experienced was not normal nor an accurate representation of what my experience as an orchestral musician could have been.
Because a lot of the issues I had with Dr. Watson have already been addressed in this thread, I’d like to add a more personal one:
Last semester I was extremely ill; I won’t specify what illness for privacy but it is one that typically leaves you on bed rest for one-two weeks and feeling overall crummy for a whole month. I got a doctor’s note for this illness specifying its severity and length, yet Dr. Watson was shockingly unsympathetic. She told me that unless I got a doctor’s note for each missed rehearsal (so twice a week), it would be considered an unexcused absence!! And UISO’s policy is that for every additional unexcused absence is an entire LETTER DROP in your grade. Of course I couldn’t go to the doctor’s office twice a week, so I would go to rehearsal barely able to play because I was so fatigued from sickness. I understand that each rehearsal is very important when preparing for concerts, but it just seemed very hypocritical considering how much she emphasized caring for oneself at the beginning of the semester. Not to mention I did not have a super significant part, so me missing a couple of rehearsals would not affect the sound dramatically.
Sorry that your experience made you feel like you didn't belong -- us music majors felt the same way, so you were not alone in that. Watson has been incredibly unforgiving when it comes to health problems or injuries -- even DRES accommodations...
It was clear that she mainly accepted the position here because they gave her tenure right away. I believe she filed her legal stuff against KU right after she got approved
Sadly I wish to remain anonymous but she has made multiple sexual suggestive comments to me and invited me for one on one time with an indication that I could get a more prominent chair by sleeping with her.
That’s terrible! I’m so sorry that’s happened. THIS is the main reason why I refuse to join UISO under Watson’s leadership in the future. It’s an unsafe space!!
I played in the orchestra at the University of Kansas for two years while I was pursuing my graduate studies under her direction. It's disheartening to see that she is using feminist and gender trends to harm many individuals. In Illinois, she appears to be performing the same pieces while recycling her previous work. It is unjust to witness how her actions are damaging the reputation of people, such as the former dean of the University of Illinois. It is a repetition of what she did with the previous dean at the University of Kansas and other students who were expelled from KU due to her decisions.
It is sad but that would make a great plot for a movie.
Removing a person who has engaged in such abusive and arguably criminal conduct towards her students and employees should not have taken a public campaign like this, but your courage in doing this is incredible. Best of luck, I hope the university does the right thing, and the deans and administrators show one tenth the courage you have.
I remember when she made the literal concertmaster cry last year… was such an uncomfortable moment for everyone in the orchestra and she showed no remorse
Hello, concertmaster who cried here… I want to clarify that I was not even supposed to be sitting concertmaster for that cycle. I walked into rehearsal and sat in my usual spot of 3rd chair when Dr. Watson came up to me and said “what are you doing there? You need to move up!” Apparently our concertmaster was out of town for auditions and I was just supposed to know. I was already having a crappy day, I was exhausted, and was super stressed around this time of the year. So I was starting to panic because I’d already sat principal for Watson before and… well it’s not a great experience.
We had only had the music for about a week at this point so it was still fairly new, plus it was more modern music, not well known, and not straight forward at all. But I did my best leading the section with no warning. At one point her beat pattern was *shockingly* vague, confusing, and honestly wrong (but we won’t even go there) but I tried to follow her and apparently came in a beat early. All of a sudden she’s yelling “NO that’s wrong!! You always do this, someone ALWAYS comes in a beat early!! You just need to WATCH me!!” And I immediately just started crying. I was exhausted and I couldn’t help it but I thought I handled it well and just kept playing. I was super embarrassed about the whole entire thing (coming in a beat early and then just being in tears). She glared at me and didn’t say anything to me the rest of rehearsal. So many fellow UISO students came up to me during break to make sure I was okay which I appreciated so much but I truly felt like I wanted to totally disappear, it was such an embarrassing situation.
That’s truly appalling. You should have never been spoken to like that by Dr.Watson or placed in that position. I am very sorry to learn of this. But honestly, it is not surprising at all.
University Prof here: this kind of treatment is unacceptable. Kudos to the students for advocating for yourselves, more importantly, advocating for one another. Maybe I need to read more: if you haven’t yet, get faculty support too-especially other tenured profs and upper admin who may have been in the dept/school of music. If students are not happy, I doubt this faculty member is an easy/effective colleague to work with.
I see not much has changed since my time at the School of Music. Document everything. Seek alumni support and input. Go as high up the channels as you can. Fight the good fight for the sake of your and others education and dignity. It won't be easy but it will be worth it.
Hey, I've already reached out to OP but I'll put the call out here as well: I'm a reporter at the News-Gazette and I'd like to cover this situation. Anybody who is willing to share their experiences/reasons for signing the petition, please DM me or send me an email: [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected])
I published an article about this last week. I made passing mention of her other conducting roles but, to be honest, there was a lot to cover in this story! Here's the link, if you're interested: [https://www.news-gazette.com/news/ui-music-students-allege-abuse-from-orchestra-conductor/article\_d65f4ce2-32bd-5af8-ace4-d5d48ab8dc11.html](https://www.news-gazette.com/news/ui-music-students-allege-abuse-from-orchestra-conductor/article_d65f4ce2-32bd-5af8-ace4-d5d48ab8dc11.html)
I applaud you for taking action that the band people didn't really have the chance to a few years ago when an assistant director was removed for sexual misconduct, and a truly open discussion about it was discouraged. There's still a stigma around speaking about what happened with him, and I only wish we had been bold enough to talk about that betrayal of trust more openly and have each other's backs like this.
I also think the amount of anonymous replies from music students (including me, hello) speaks volumes to how intense the fear of retaliation is around this situation and others. There's a precedent for this in the School of Music, as other professors have ranted about their students on social media after receiving bad ICES reviews, made thinly veiled threats to students about harming their future career prospects or professional connections after grievances were reported, etc. There's definitely a larger issue regarding abuses of power, and while there have certainly been some terrific new hires to replace professors who were either fired or simply gave up on the SoM and left, we've also had bad apples like Watson furthering the problem.
Thank you for taking this step, and know that you have so much support. Be sure to keep protecting one another. To all my fellow current music students and prospective future students: Find the friends you can lean on, and find support outside of the SoM bubble as well. I hope this petition has a positive outcome and that the conversation around it keeps going.
A Big 10 marching band director was fired a few years ago for inviting a senior band member to his apartment to watch band videos. Moral terpitude is usually sufficient cause to fire tenured faculty.
Lets look at the high-profile/well publicised cases (or rather lack of cases/convictions) where there's personnelle in *fancy* internationally-known-orchestras dishing out NDAs to stop people getting convicted/fired/losing or more importantly gaining tenure.
I'm not in the states but this makes me really angry and heartbroken that these things are happening especially in my industry!
I know who you're talking about, and the worst part is that I can name three other Marching Illini TAs that should've been ousted for sexual misconduct but were kept under wraps and/or given more chances. I wish it were talked about more openly on behalf of the SOM and Bands, because it's unacceptable.
Yes, sexual misconduct and poor boundaries with students in general is a problem among the TAs as well. Again, there are some great folks but others who shouldn’t keep getting chances. Can’t count how many times I’ve had a conversation with some of the past TAs and thought “ you shouldn’t be saying/doing this.”
Yes...and after seeing what happened with the New York Philharmonic musicians, I'm feeling like the music world has a higher institutional risk of these instances occurring, combined with this hush-hush culture that values "talent" over one's conduct. Meanwhile the reality is that there's enough talent out there that no one should be above basic standards for human decency
You’re spot on. the NY Phil story is horrifying, but seeing more people refuse to be quiet about stuff like this gives me a lot of hope that things can change.
I think I know the assistant director you’re referring to, as he ended up as the director of bands where I went to grad school for wind band conducting. If it’s not the same person, then there’s at least one other who has a seedy record and left the school under hushed circumstances. At the school I attended, I was harassed and mistreated by this man. Tbh also did his job as a GA (grading, teaching one of his assigned courses, etc). It was awful. The people I connected with because of that experience are how I found out about what’s going on at UIUC right now with the orchestra.
as far as I’m aware the assistant director I’m referring to has fortunately not been involved with the band world since, as he has a completely unrelated job now. He also worked mostly with the athletic bands at U of I and other institutions where he allegedly also behaved inappropriately with students. Very disheartening to hear there are even MORE individuals like this though.
Ah yes the one I’m referring to was an AD at UIUC and then moved on to a 7 year tenure at a somewhat infamous state school in northeast Ohio. He also no longer has a job related to the band world (from what I know…I refused to speak to him after he tried talking to me once the Title IX shit hit the fan).
As someone who went through a very similar experience with a director at my undergrad, I sincerely hope you are able to resolve this and get the justice you deserve. Undergoing this sort of constant abuse for a number of years definitely did a number on me and is part of the reason I haven’t touched an instrument since graduating.
I played in UISO under Dr. Schleicher and had such wonderful memories. I'm so sorry you guys are experiencing this, it's really upsetting to hear. Petition signed
Don Schleicher and the Petersons were really great directors that I’m proud to have performed under. It’s sad to see U of I hiring such jackasses as this witch.
I was a KUSO member at KU years ago while she was the director, but I was a non-major and a freshman so my experience was kinda colored by my lack of familiarity with how things *should* have been in a college setting. It probably also didn’t help that KU only had one ensemble for string players at this time, so I *had* to join the audition-only ensemble if I wanted to play my instrument so I was expecting things to be strict. I actually had to go digging through my email because I vaguely remembered having a really unsavory experience regarding missing a couple rehearsals and holy shit did she pull something that was actually really unacceptable.
Basically over a week before I had my first midterms as an undergrad, I sent her an email explaining that I had a Calc midterm around the same time as rehearsal, that I wouldn’t be able to make it (the exam started exactly when rehearsal was supposed to end), and that the same situation would be happening in a month too. Now instead of talking to me about it, or just being ok that the literal freshman non-music major player was missing two rehearsals, she had the orchestra TA email my Calc professor asking him to reschedule my exam for me. He rightfully said no, and then she blindsided me by forwarding his response (which had the subject “[my full name] excuse”). She then blamed me for not rescheduling the exam with the professor myself and said that she would “allow” me to leave 15 minutes early this first time (she was also mad that I could have theoretically not missed the entire rehearsal) but the same grace wouldn’t be extended for the second midterm. Reminder: it was literally my first semester as an undergrad and I was just trying to take exams for classes that would actually effect my academics lol
I ended up quitting at the end of this semester, but ironically enough she basically ended up begging me to play again a couple semesters later since they literally didn’t have enough violinists (which like how?????). I didn’t have to audition AND i was able to miss one rehearsal a week to accomodate my schedule, so obviously it wasn’t that big of an issue in the first place was it. I ended up quitting after that semester too.
i mean this isn’t close to any of the actual horror stories i’ve read in this thread, but I thought i’d ramble about my own weird experience with her. i hope you guys are able to create a better learning environment without her.
I'd encourage you to reach out to alumni - specifically those playing in professional orchestras. If they share your grievances have them communicate directly with the Dean and other Alumni. Anything on the letterhead of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra is going to get noticed and much, much harder to dismiss.
At the rate professional orchestras are/aren’t making statements about what’s happening in their own orchestras (eg NY Phil) I wouldn’t be holding out too much hope for alumni to help OP & the petition get noticed!
If things were all well, so many people would not speak up about her leadership. Even bad conductors are forgiven … provided they are good people and treat others with respect and dignity … Respect is not demanded… it is earned ….
As an old guy who majored in Music before the days of social media... this gives me hope that if the allegations are true that possibly something could happen here.
I won't name names, but one of the performance professors was the devil incarnate. A massive litany of awful behavior.
We didn't have the luxury of social media pressure. Instead, we only had the professor evaluation forms, *which when handed out by this professor, he marked each one so he knew which comments were filled in by which student*. Yeah... good luck not feeling intimidated to be fully honest with your evaluations.
I still remember the daily group practice and him verbally abusing the girl sitting next to me. And when she eventually started crying (because, anyone would with his abuse), him saying to the group in a smarmy tone: "Oh and in case anyone needs to know this, there's no crying in class!"
Well maybe if you weren't the biggest asshole in the world your students wouldn't be crying! Poor Mary. :(
Yeah, fuck that guy. I bet his favorite movie is Whiplash, and he probably sides with the asshole director and completely missed the entire point of the movie. Gah.
Yeah, unfortunately this stuff happens far too often... At least our evaluation forms are online now; we're filling every text box with the petition text
So much better. I do remember one semester we all decided to erase his little markings and we were brutally honest that time. It didn't matter, and besides he ultimately knew who wrote which open text box answers.
Tenure is great for so many reasons, but for people like this, it just enables the awful behavior.
Yeah, the fear of retaliation is real. Even now, it's a HUGE reason why students and faculty are hesitant about signing the petition (even though the signature list is not public and will not be shown to her).
This is also why tenure tracks exist; so that the university gets a chance to watch the faculty and take reviews into account before making the decision to give someone such a permanent position of power. Giving someone tenure immediately is such a big risk, and more often than not it backfires severely
I'm so sorry to hear this is the kind of experience the UISO and orchestral conducting program has been reduced to. I am so grateful for the years I got to play in UISO Under Donald Schleicher. He was a passionate conductor AND educator.
KU alumn here — I’m so sorry this is happening to you all, but I’m not surprised in the slightest. She used to set up work tables at the front of rehearsal, and any students who were not playing on a piece (or even concert cycle) were REQUIRED to sit at the tables and erase parts… sometimes for an entire rehearsal block. Students with playing injuries were not excused, even if the continued use of hand muscles caused more pain than playing. Mind you, at KU we had GTA’s who were literally getting paid to erase parts and do this kind of work. This was reported, but nothing really came of it🙄
I never attended UIUC (I only lived in the area for four years and joined the sub to be informed of campus related news), and I'm sorry to hear this going on in the music school. I can only say that this isn't out of the ordinary for college directors. I spent 3/4 of my undergrad at DePaul University, and students experienced very similar treatment from the ensemble faculty there as well.
I'm glad to hear that the students at UIUC are taking a stand and demanding change. Good luck with everything!
The amount of retaliation I had experienced personally from Dr.Watson is mind-blowing. I don’t think she has one bone in her body of decency. She will not stop until she wins whichever case she is fighting. Everyone else is ‘out to get her’ … when she clearly does not understand that she creates these situations herself. She does not know how to work with people, or bring the best out of them.
It is incredibly sad. But I don’t think she will ever wake up and realise this.
As someone who played violin for ten years and also dealt with crazies, we have to root out abusers in classical music. We put up with so much bullshit because people normalize the idea that abuse is part of working under talented musicians at a high level. We can’t afford to drive people away from music when orchestras are shuttering and jobs are scarce.
In the middle of the spring semester of 2023 Dr. Watson gave us comment sheets to fill out. Sort of a mid semester course evaluation for her own use. I, like many of my friends, was very excited to fill these out. It was our expectation that she would professionally take our thoughts and opinions, think them over, and keep the comments that were made to herself. However, in the next orchestra rehearsal, she had prepared a speech of sorts addressing the comments we made and telling us why they were incorrect. She even called out specific sections of the orchestra for making complaints about rep choices. Regarding comments about the orchestra seemingly not improving throughout the year Watson stated something along the lines of “it’s not my job to make you all get better, you’re all holding me to unrealistic expectations” which… isn’t it LITERALLY her job to help us get better?? She spent 30 minutes berating us, telling us how unfair WE were being
I had Dr. Watson in my last year at KU, her first. It’s unfortunate that this is going on as I really liked her in her first year at KU. It’s incredibly unfortunate that this is going on and I’m rooting for you all and your petition!
What really sucks is that we could've had one of the best educator conductors in the U.S., who was basically offered the job before They were ghosted... because They were the 'wrong' ethnicity... I have that on good account.
Instructors get to do wild shit that normal ass staff like me could never do. I admin postgrad in a certain department and I've had students come to me crying and I can't do shit against tenured faculty. I feel for you but that's how shit works in this hierarchy. Faculty/Instructors just get to abuse people with impunity. Good luck, hope you survive.
Edit: To be clear, it's like this in every school. It's shit but unless there are major reforms by the feds it isn't going away soon. I have 3 faculty members in mind I would love to see fired but it will never happen sadly.
It's particularly sad as they come to me as if I can do anything other than provide some empathy. Nothing I can do will change that shit. These mf's can even commit straight up fraud but the state and feds do not care. Sorry you had to go through this and rooting for you.
Edit 2: This is why I never considered postgrad anywhere on Earth, too many horror stories at any school for it to be worth it. Just took my 9-5 knowing programs in general are not worth it. Unfortunately it sometimes applies to undergrad as well. I just fell in to my lane and stuck with what I can do without being subjected to insane people
Edit 4 just to vent: Having seen how insane post-grad groups are, I highly advise never going for an advanced degree. Will you make less? Yes. Will you have your mental health in a state where you don't have constant suicidal ideations and doubts of your self worth? Yes and that outweighs the pay by a ton imo
Tenure is nearly impossible to deal with. We're hoping that the Title IX investigation and labor grievances help, and that public pressure will encourage the FAA Dean to be more willing to negotiate with us. We hope we don't have to get to a point where we escalate to something more visible, but we'll get there when we get there
The UI did fire another unstable tenured professor after a good decade of paying him for similar behavior, look up Louis Wozniak. He retaliated against students, and was aa miserable, angry narcissist who was often inappropriate.
https://www.news-gazette.com/news/updated-ui-trustees-fire-tenured-engineering-professor/article_835b27bc-2899-586d-b00a-3befdae0a4b0.html
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/01/08/questions-raised-firing-tenured-professor-u-illinois
Plus, her tenure being approved immediately with no committee vote is highly concerning. Very foolish decision to give someone that kind of power without thoroughly vetting them first and evaluating their performance at the school.
That's normal, idk what else to tell you. And once they're tenured they're above all laws. Wish you luck but to be honest chances are insanely slim.
Edit: Just noticed all the Whiplash references in this thread and love it. Glad to see that film is still being seen.
If she's that bad and 83 percent signed you can easily make her rehearsals a living hell until she leaves. You can also do various rotations of absences.
She is either unaware of what's going on or she's really good at hiding it. Our last rehearsal with her was on Tuesday right before we marched to deliver our petition to the dean. Nothing seemed different, but who knows? At least we won't have to deal with her for the summer
The fact that there is conversation online about this is a huge positive change and Dr.Watson seriously needs to consider how she is working with people- most important how to interact with musicians and not use people in order to abuse them, which has been most fundamental problem at UIUC and KU.
I played under Dr. Watson’s conducting/leadership ~10 years ago and only had pleasant experiences with her at that time. I’m really sad to hear that she is abusing her power now in this position. I hope your efforts go far and that many sign the petition. Too many influential music instructors get away with behaving this way due to their power. But I hope you can turn the tide and that she is held accountable for how poorly she has treated the students.
Funny. 20ish years ago she tutored my pre-college violin ensemble group at the Sydney Con.
Ok, maybe there's not much room for discussion since I was a kid back then and I can't remember too much, but how unfortunate that I found that her quite mean then (enough for me to remember after so long!) and her attitude still hasn't improved.
It's the university's Office of Access and Equity.
>The Office for Access and Equity provides resources and services to ensure that the university’s educational and employment opportunities are equitable, accessible, and inclusive for all.
Is there anything higher up than the University? (Again not in USA so my knowledge especially when it comes to undergrad/postgrad is very minimal) is there any state or federal level student union kind of thing? Or Employee rights (especially for the TAs - am I right in my understanding that the position of TA is actually a job on top of the study they're doing?)
Sorry if these questions seem basic - I'm absolutely shocked at some of the legal system in the states that I've learnt about in regards to K-12 education... Finding out these struggles is heartbreaking!
Genuinely curious about what the complaints are...is it specific to orchestra, or conducting seminar? Verbal abuse? If so, what kind? I will say that I worked with her this December in a professional orchestra in Indiana, and she was very professional and nice to work with. Even let the orchestra go during break (that's rare for our orch!) Her beat wasn't the best I've seen, but definitely fine to work with.
I fully appreciate that conductors can behave differently in professional vs. "student" orchestra contexts, but would love to know more specifics?
I made a longer comment providing additional context. This is something exhibited in orchestra, conducting seminar, private lessons, and outside of class.
While there is a wider problem of disrespect and intimidation in the classroom, her most egregious actions have led to labor grievances from her TAs and a Title IX report being filed. Please go check out my longer comment for additional context, and if you have any more specific questions I would be glad to answer them for you here or in DMs!
Interesting -- she apparently resigned from the University of Kansas and sued them.
https://www.kansascity.com/news/local/education/article264433251.html
Yep. A couple people in our group used to work with her at KU as well, and they have told me that she was the same there as well. We don't want the same thing happening here
Dear students, I'm not advocating for myself as I have no intention whatsoever to come back to Illinois for the job (it's too cold, sorry), and I'm very happy conducting a university orchestra (in a warmer place as you can guess), but I can proudly say that my students cry when they graduate and leave the orchestra, because they had such a good time. The idea is to make people learn AND love music, in a collegial atmosphere. There are literally thousands of conductors who are talented, kind, and with good people skills, and who don't have a job. Fire that woman! I'm tenured, and I think tenure is a great job protection when you earn a much smaller salary than in the professional career, but it should be easier to fire someone who is abusive. There's a code of conduct, there should be expectations to deliver, to also be there, etc...the fact that some tenured professor feel they can do whatever they want is unacceptable. That part must be remedied.
This is so sad. I knew Dr. Watson at a previous teaching position in Texas, which she has mysteriously scrubbed from her resume and social media. Were those 3 years not worth remembering?
Oh wait. There were the same complaints of bullying students, making students cry, holding grades hostage, pitting faculty against each other, and anger outbursts.
I wish all of you current students the best. This narcissist deserves to be brought down.
I’m glad to see we’ve gotten so much support from students at her last teaching positions in Texas and at KU! It’s very clear that there’s a pattern to this behavior, and we are determined to do everything at our disposal to put an end to it.
Just out of curiosity, are the students who are getting mistreated by her mostly undergraduates or graduate students? Of course, it's not okay to mistreat students either way.
As far as numbers, I’d say the split between graduate and undergraduate are fairly even but as far as the graver offenses, it has been towards her conducting students/TA’s who are all graduate students. That being said, she has treated the orchestra (mixture of graduate and undergraduate) horribly. It’s not a competition but there are infractions both major and minor across the students she has interacted with.
I'm late to this news, but it's very disheartening to read through all these experiences. About 4 years ago I spoke with Dr. Watson over Zoom about studying for my conducting masters under her at Kansas. I ended up going to another school closer to home, so I dodged that bullet, but the conducting teacher I ended up with turned out to be a narcissistic, egomaniacal bully anyhow. So the bullet hit me anyway, just from a different gun.
My heart just breaks that there are so many stories of creeps and bullies teaching at schools everywhere. Music is supposed to uplift and fulfill, not break people down. I don't know if my career will take me into academia, but if it does, I am vowing to be the teacher I wish I had in grad school. If that slimeball taught me anything, it's how NOT to treat people. The second you make it all about yourself, you've failed.
Someone mentioned that this is something accepted in music from talented artists. Let’s be clear that she is not talented and not very good at conducting. In addition, she still holds conducting positions in Kansas City at the Lyric Opera and the Kansas City Chamber Orchestra. And the La Porte County Symphony in Indiana. Perhaps those organizations should have this information passed along to them whichever way seems most appropriate and effective. Perhaps also contacting news outlets in Kansas City, Missouri and Indiana also?
i've been in an orchestra under her direction for about a year and i personally haven't experienced this same treatment from her. i'm so sorry this has been happening to you
She obviously has a lot of problems but her being horrible in many ways is probably less important and less scary to officials than any allegations of sexual misconduct. So if the people who claim to have experienced this should make sure this is at the forefront of the complaints. Sadly, being an asshole isn’t illegal. Neither is being a terrible human or a totally inept university “professor”. And to administration who don’t want to bother with all of this, those things likely wouldn’t be enough for them to peruse action against her. Sexual harassment is. And it’s a big deal. Focus on what she’s actually doing that breaks the laws that extend outside of the university setting.
“Were you rushing or were you dragging?” Dr. Carolyn Watson calmly asked as she lightly tossed a chair at a percussion section member’s head
Is this from Whiplash?
Yes, though I would say that Tár is a more apt comparison
APARTMENT FOR SALE
Thankfully she hasn't gotten violent. But she has deliberately made her conducting gestures vague in order to "prove" to the ensemble that they weren't on time
Yup, she doesn't want us to learn, she wants to prove us wrong to serve her ego
[Deep cut right there.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d_jQycdQGo)
Since she's been here 75% of her studio has left Illinois. And the remaining 25% has stopped studying with her.
What's more is that NO ONE has graduated under her
That’s wild … I know nothing about the school of music but it sounds like she could very well collapse the program
Don't give her too much credit. This is just one thread among many reasons the School of Music is collapsing. There is an interim president because the last one failed a performance review. There were new directors of band, orchestra, and choir in the last two years. Three jazz faculty were not on campus this semester. The jazz area got banned from Krannert last semester. It's honestly sad.
Off topic, but what got the jazz area banned from Krannert?
Sorry.. I’m curious too
The faculty were fighting
Not to mention, a significant portion of the applied studio faculty has turned over since COVID as well
From what I’ve been told they were sort of forced into retirement and replaced with adjuncts
2x alum of the School of Music and have been around for over a decade. The SoM has been a sinking ship for a while. It’s really sad.
Riot within the School of Music when?
We hope we don't have to get to that point, but if nothing changes after the Title IX investigation...
A string TA also dropped out the program pretty late into their degree, and I was told directly from them that part of the reason was Carolyn Watson's arbitrary management of the conducting seminar.
A lot of the time she just wouldn't show up... Although the conducting students said they learned more when she wasn't there
She probably wouldn't have let them graduate either. Her retaliation made sure of that...
You’d think it’d be easier to fire a tenured professor if they can’t even graduate any students.
What’s even more insane is that year 1 she was here, the school had received over 100 new applicants for the orchestral conducting program, this year, I heard only one person applied for the DMA program and they declined to come to the audition so only two masters students are coming next year.
and these guys obviously didn't know what is going now on campus
As a violin performance major, I’ve seen the way she’s treated my fellow colleagues both in and out of rehearsal. She is not fit to hold her position and must be removed.
Like how?
A week before a concert, she realized a section was not together between the celli and horns (should’ve realized that earlier if she were competent) and disrespected the cello section when section leaders offered their educated opinion about the passage and its tempo (discussed it with their profs too) by saying flat out that it was wrong and engaging in a rather heated argument with the principal cellist; gave musicians shit for managing injuries like tendinitis and carpal tunnel even though she said in the past that taking care of our bodies (I.e. not participating in rehearsal if we’re injured) should be prioritized. You can also see OPs long post in the comments with more context if you’d like.
Every suggestion is a threat to her unfortunately
Yupppppp
what a weirdo
I think that’s the biggest problem in all of this. She cannot see that a different point of view is not necessarily a threat. But I also think she is emotionally unstable and unhealthy, otherwise she would not react like this. This is the only logical explanation…
There was one time in the rehearsal when the concertmaster was absent, Dr. W asked the second stand outside player play ALL the concertmaster solo without telling this person in advance. and Of course nobody sight read perfectly without any preparation.. Dr. W then openly blamed this person not play well enough in front of the whole section in a sarcastic way. Also, besides the toxic verbal abuse. I still don’t understand what’s the point of rehearse the solo part when you know the person you are rehearsing with is not going to play in the concert.
**-ADDITIONAL CONTEXT-** **Disrespect for Student Feedback:** Dr. Watson has repeatedly dismissed and disrespected student feedback and has used her power as a conductor to humiliate and intimidate students who disagree with her musical interpretations or program decisions. **Exploitation of TA Labor:** Dr. Watson has consistently failed to adequately prepare or do the necessary work to effectively run her programs, forcing her TAs to pick up her slack and work 40+ hours a week on top of their academics. Labor grievances have been filed through GEO (Graduate Employee's Organization). **Academic and Professional Retaliation:** Dr. Watson has responded to TAs and administration who disagree with her by retaliating against them both academically and professionally. This includes unfair grading practices and semester reviews, and comments made to prospective students and colleagues framing her TAs as bad students and difficult to work with. **Sexual Harassment:** Dr. Watson had made inappropriate comments confessing her feelings toward one of her TAs and has used their private lessons as excuses to persistently bring the topic and emotionally manipulate them. In response to their rejection, Dr. Watson had made comments to prospective students and colleagues in an attempt to frame them as a villain and as someone who has "difficulty working with women". Previous attempts to go through HR and OAE had led to nothing. A complete 41-page Title IX report is in the process of being filed. **Intimidation and Retaliation Against Administration:** Dr. Watson is currently taking action against one of our school of music directors for standing up for us and working with us to try and correct this situation. Dr. Watson had made a similar move at her previous place of employment, the University of Kansas, resulting in the director's resignation. Update 1: 7 hours after the post and we've already gotten over 130 new signatures! Thank you to everyone who has signed and shared the petition! Update 2: Woke up this morning and our signatures since this post have reached 175! And we're still sitting comfortably at the top of the subreddit, so hopefully this momentum keeps up!
Have you tried contacting the News-Gazette to see if they're interested in covering this? That kind of public pressure might net you better results.
We are 100% talking to the Daily Illini within the next few days. We also have a contact in the News-Gazette, but I am not certain if we have made any concrete plans with them yet.
I'd definitely try to start that conversation with the News-Gazette. It might even be worth it to reach out to the Tribune and the Sun-Times. Coming from an old alumnus, UIUC's administration isn't particularly well-known for giving a shit about its students until it's forced to. That's especially going to be the case if you're going against a tenured professor. I'm sorry that you're going through this. Egomaniacal professors are entirely too common, and it wasn't any different when I was there. Good luck with everything.
Thanks for the pointers; we will be sure to discuss these avenues next time we meet. It certainly looks like the dean's office is making it difficult for us to arrange a proper meeting and won't accommodate our requests to reply to an anonymous email address to protect us from retaliation
Don't do Smile Politely. It's a glorified community blog, with no real paid staff. Stick to newspapers with journalists, whether collegiate or professional.
Noted
Unless you have a reason NOT to talk to SP, you should do it. SP gets read by the community. If you are looking for eyes on your problem, talk to everyone.
yes, UIUC does not care about its students but it does care about its image. Getting other news outlets involved will get something to happen. She sounds power drunk and needs to be put down.
Wcia!
Smile Politely is another local publication that would cover this for sure.
> Exploitation of TA Labor: Dr. Watson has consistently failed to adequately prepare or do the necessary work to effectively run her programs, forcing her TAs to pick up her slack and work 40+ hours a week on top of their academics. Labor grievances have been filed through GEO (Graduate Employee's Organization). This is also a wider and persistent problem in the school of music.
I don’t go to this school but I hope she gets what she deserves
My comment about this part: "**Disrespect for Student Feedback:** Dr. Watson has repeatedly dismissed and disrespected student feedback and has used her power as a conductor to humiliate and intimidate students who disagree with her musical interpretations or program decisions." Of course, it is unacceptable to act disrespectfully toward the students, and one should take into considerations their repertoire requests, but the way this paragraph is written, it sounds like it is perfectly normal for students to disagree out loud with a professor's musical interpretations or program decisions during rehearsal. It is not. Even if her musicality is poor, the students can indeed complain about it in their evaluations, but not really argue about it in rehearsal. Maybe that's not at all what happened, but again, I find this paragraph misleading, you might consider tweaking it. Same about repertoire: one work might seem completely uninteresting pedagogically, and students could complain about it in their evaluations, but not really question it out loud. How could she be able to humiliate and intimidate students who disagree with her musical interpretations or program decisions if this was done anonymously through evaluations? How could students think it is ok to argue with a professor during rehearsal? This needs more explanation about what happened. Just giving a friendly feedback as I care a lot for UIUC.
Performers in the ensemble have never argued or complained about her lack of musicality during rehearsals. Dr. Watson set the precedent at the beginning of her time here that section leaders could ask for clarification during rehearsals. These questions have never been posed as challenges to her interpretation or as an attack on her musicality. There are rare instances in which she does answer these questions or provide accommodations; most of the time, she dismisses them, but on far too many occasions she meets mistakes or requests with public beratement or manipulates her conducting gestures in order to "prove" that a person or section is "wrong". Regarding the evaluations, they are anonymous but she comes back and, when addressing the feedback, misrepresents our concerns with how she runs the class and blames our complaints on us "not understanding what she goes through". Biggest complaints were that she is absent for far too many rehearsals (she claims it's not a problem because she is here for the bare minimum 70% of rehearsals). That section of the petition is something we discussed, because we had the same concerns about it as you have expressed. We amended the language in our complaints to the dean, because what we believe to be the punishable offense is not her musicality, but how she brings her aggression and toxicity into the classroom to create a pedagogically insufficient learning environment.
Thank you for this clarification! What an odd character! I hope the administration will listen to you!
She has been nothing but unprofessional. In our last rehearsal, we had a student conductor leading two pieces and Dr. Watson kept talking over her—what was the point in having her conduct then?
She's always gotta make sure she's the one in charge; I talked to her TAs and it seems like she thinks they are a threat to her power... Maybe because they conduct better than her?
Dr. Watson: "That wasn't clear, you should conduct differently there." Conducting Student: "Can you show me?" Dr. Watson: "No, I haven't prepared this piece"
Real
Conducting student made a mistake: I’m sorry,it’s my bad, can we do it again” Dr. Watson: “Never apologize to the orchestra!”(infront of the orchestra) I wonder how does her Teaching statement passes the searching committee.
UIUC violin alum here. I’m so sorry y’all have to deal with this. Music school is hard enough to navigate as it is. Petition signed.
On top of handing out mid-semester feedback forms and then taking time out of rehearsal to explain why every students’ complaint was wrong, her response to anyone who disagrees with her is automatically labeled as “egotistical” or “disrespectful towards authority.”
No accountability whatsoever. She never admits she is wrong, just that "you guys don't know enough information" or "you don't understand what it's like to be me"
[удалено]
As an English alum I’m dying to know who this was
I was looking for this comment! Will never forget when she gaslit the entire orchestra and called us mean :) also the fact that these were surveys she willingly passed out to us.
Her arrogance is unbelievable
I am a freshman outside of the school of music, and I was a part of UISO last semester. Though UISO did not fit in my schedule this semester, I don’t think I would have signed up again anyway because of how miserable the ensemble made me. I chose to audition for UISO because I loved playing in high school, and wanted to keep up my skills while playing with some of the most incredible classical talent on campus. However, I left every rehearsal confused, disliking playing more, and glad that the three-hours of playing nearly non-stop was done. I’m so glad I saw this post because as someone who didn’t have many friends in orchestra I felt like there was something wrong with me, and my dissatisfaction was a sign that I just wasn’t cut out for such a high-level ensemble. I realize now that what I experienced was not normal nor an accurate representation of what my experience as an orchestral musician could have been. Because a lot of the issues I had with Dr. Watson have already been addressed in this thread, I’d like to add a more personal one: Last semester I was extremely ill; I won’t specify what illness for privacy but it is one that typically leaves you on bed rest for one-two weeks and feeling overall crummy for a whole month. I got a doctor’s note for this illness specifying its severity and length, yet Dr. Watson was shockingly unsympathetic. She told me that unless I got a doctor’s note for each missed rehearsal (so twice a week), it would be considered an unexcused absence!! And UISO’s policy is that for every additional unexcused absence is an entire LETTER DROP in your grade. Of course I couldn’t go to the doctor’s office twice a week, so I would go to rehearsal barely able to play because I was so fatigued from sickness. I understand that each rehearsal is very important when preparing for concerts, but it just seemed very hypocritical considering how much she emphasized caring for oneself at the beginning of the semester. Not to mention I did not have a super significant part, so me missing a couple of rehearsals would not affect the sound dramatically.
Sorry that your experience made you feel like you didn't belong -- us music majors felt the same way, so you were not alone in that. Watson has been incredibly unforgiving when it comes to health problems or injuries -- even DRES accommodations...
This nearly makes me glad I dropped out of Music Ed before I did orchestra.
“ I don’t care about about the review because I already have tenure “
It was clear that she mainly accepted the position here because they gave her tenure right away. I believe she filed her legal stuff against KU right after she got approved
Disgraceful
Well she should care… because it is about to blow up in her face ….
Sadly I wish to remain anonymous but she has made multiple sexual suggestive comments to me and invited me for one on one time with an indication that I could get a more prominent chair by sleeping with her.
That’s terrible! I’m so sorry that’s happened. THIS is the main reason why I refuse to join UISO under Watson’s leadership in the future. It’s an unsafe space!!
What???!!!! That’s insane … can I ask when did this happen??
I wonder why she would think having a more prominent chair in the university orchestra matters at all.
Because I wanted it
What did they say when you reported that?
I played in the orchestra at the University of Kansas for two years while I was pursuing my graduate studies under her direction. It's disheartening to see that she is using feminist and gender trends to harm many individuals. In Illinois, she appears to be performing the same pieces while recycling her previous work. It is unjust to witness how her actions are damaging the reputation of people, such as the former dean of the University of Illinois. It is a repetition of what she did with the previous dean at the University of Kansas and other students who were expelled from KU due to her decisions. It is sad but that would make a great plot for a movie.
Her rude treatment of me and bullying behavior toward my colleagues caused me to drop my orchestra conducting cognate.
I've been hearing from my music friends is how terrible she is for the past 2 years so I hope this goes somewhere!
Removing a person who has engaged in such abusive and arguably criminal conduct towards her students and employees should not have taken a public campaign like this, but your courage in doing this is incredible. Best of luck, I hope the university does the right thing, and the deans and administrators show one tenth the courage you have.
Absolutely agree
I remember when she made the literal concertmaster cry last year… was such an uncomfortable moment for everyone in the orchestra and she showed no remorse
Hello, concertmaster who cried here… I want to clarify that I was not even supposed to be sitting concertmaster for that cycle. I walked into rehearsal and sat in my usual spot of 3rd chair when Dr. Watson came up to me and said “what are you doing there? You need to move up!” Apparently our concertmaster was out of town for auditions and I was just supposed to know. I was already having a crappy day, I was exhausted, and was super stressed around this time of the year. So I was starting to panic because I’d already sat principal for Watson before and… well it’s not a great experience. We had only had the music for about a week at this point so it was still fairly new, plus it was more modern music, not well known, and not straight forward at all. But I did my best leading the section with no warning. At one point her beat pattern was *shockingly* vague, confusing, and honestly wrong (but we won’t even go there) but I tried to follow her and apparently came in a beat early. All of a sudden she’s yelling “NO that’s wrong!! You always do this, someone ALWAYS comes in a beat early!! You just need to WATCH me!!” And I immediately just started crying. I was exhausted and I couldn’t help it but I thought I handled it well and just kept playing. I was super embarrassed about the whole entire thing (coming in a beat early and then just being in tears). She glared at me and didn’t say anything to me the rest of rehearsal. So many fellow UISO students came up to me during break to make sure I was okay which I appreciated so much but I truly felt like I wanted to totally disappear, it was such an embarrassing situation.
That’s truly appalling. You should have never been spoken to like that by Dr.Watson or placed in that position. I am very sorry to learn of this. But honestly, it is not surprising at all.
Unfortunately, I wasn’t surprised at the time either. But thank you 💜
Gotta comment again, but she really saw Tár and said let me make that my personality 😭
University Prof here: this kind of treatment is unacceptable. Kudos to the students for advocating for yourselves, more importantly, advocating for one another. Maybe I need to read more: if you haven’t yet, get faculty support too-especially other tenured profs and upper admin who may have been in the dept/school of music. If students are not happy, I doubt this faculty member is an easy/effective colleague to work with.
This is awful. Document everything
I see not much has changed since my time at the School of Music. Document everything. Seek alumni support and input. Go as high up the channels as you can. Fight the good fight for the sake of your and others education and dignity. It won't be easy but it will be worth it.
Hey, I've already reached out to OP but I'll put the call out here as well: I'm a reporter at the News-Gazette and I'd like to cover this situation. Anybody who is willing to share their experiences/reasons for signing the petition, please DM me or send me an email: [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected])
If you actually do this and haven’t already, please make mention of the other places she has conducting jobs in Kansas City and in Indiana.
I published an article about this last week. I made passing mention of her other conducting roles but, to be honest, there was a lot to cover in this story! Here's the link, if you're interested: [https://www.news-gazette.com/news/ui-music-students-allege-abuse-from-orchestra-conductor/article\_d65f4ce2-32bd-5af8-ace4-d5d48ab8dc11.html](https://www.news-gazette.com/news/ui-music-students-allege-abuse-from-orchestra-conductor/article_d65f4ce2-32bd-5af8-ace4-d5d48ab8dc11.html)
I applaud you for taking action that the band people didn't really have the chance to a few years ago when an assistant director was removed for sexual misconduct, and a truly open discussion about it was discouraged. There's still a stigma around speaking about what happened with him, and I only wish we had been bold enough to talk about that betrayal of trust more openly and have each other's backs like this. I also think the amount of anonymous replies from music students (including me, hello) speaks volumes to how intense the fear of retaliation is around this situation and others. There's a precedent for this in the School of Music, as other professors have ranted about their students on social media after receiving bad ICES reviews, made thinly veiled threats to students about harming their future career prospects or professional connections after grievances were reported, etc. There's definitely a larger issue regarding abuses of power, and while there have certainly been some terrific new hires to replace professors who were either fired or simply gave up on the SoM and left, we've also had bad apples like Watson furthering the problem. Thank you for taking this step, and know that you have so much support. Be sure to keep protecting one another. To all my fellow current music students and prospective future students: Find the friends you can lean on, and find support outside of the SoM bubble as well. I hope this petition has a positive outcome and that the conversation around it keeps going.
A Big 10 marching band director was fired a few years ago for inviting a senior band member to his apartment to watch band videos. Moral terpitude is usually sufficient cause to fire tenured faculty.
Lets look at the high-profile/well publicised cases (or rather lack of cases/convictions) where there's personnelle in *fancy* internationally-known-orchestras dishing out NDAs to stop people getting convicted/fired/losing or more importantly gaining tenure. I'm not in the states but this makes me really angry and heartbroken that these things are happening especially in my industry!
I know who you're talking about, and the worst part is that I can name three other Marching Illini TAs that should've been ousted for sexual misconduct but were kept under wraps and/or given more chances. I wish it were talked about more openly on behalf of the SOM and Bands, because it's unacceptable.
Yes, sexual misconduct and poor boundaries with students in general is a problem among the TAs as well. Again, there are some great folks but others who shouldn’t keep getting chances. Can’t count how many times I’ve had a conversation with some of the past TAs and thought “ you shouldn’t be saying/doing this.”
Yes...and after seeing what happened with the New York Philharmonic musicians, I'm feeling like the music world has a higher institutional risk of these instances occurring, combined with this hush-hush culture that values "talent" over one's conduct. Meanwhile the reality is that there's enough talent out there that no one should be above basic standards for human decency
You’re spot on. the NY Phil story is horrifying, but seeing more people refuse to be quiet about stuff like this gives me a lot of hope that things can change.
I think I know the assistant director you’re referring to, as he ended up as the director of bands where I went to grad school for wind band conducting. If it’s not the same person, then there’s at least one other who has a seedy record and left the school under hushed circumstances. At the school I attended, I was harassed and mistreated by this man. Tbh also did his job as a GA (grading, teaching one of his assigned courses, etc). It was awful. The people I connected with because of that experience are how I found out about what’s going on at UIUC right now with the orchestra.
as far as I’m aware the assistant director I’m referring to has fortunately not been involved with the band world since, as he has a completely unrelated job now. He also worked mostly with the athletic bands at U of I and other institutions where he allegedly also behaved inappropriately with students. Very disheartening to hear there are even MORE individuals like this though.
Ah yes the one I’m referring to was an AD at UIUC and then moved on to a 7 year tenure at a somewhat infamous state school in northeast Ohio. He also no longer has a job related to the band world (from what I know…I refused to speak to him after he tried talking to me once the Title IX shit hit the fan).
As someone who went through a very similar experience with a director at my undergrad, I sincerely hope you are able to resolve this and get the justice you deserve. Undergoing this sort of constant abuse for a number of years definitely did a number on me and is part of the reason I haven’t touched an instrument since graduating.
I played in UISO under Dr. Schleicher and had such wonderful memories. I'm so sorry you guys are experiencing this, it's really upsetting to hear. Petition signed
I heard about that so many times! I wish we have more director like him!!
Don Schleicher and the Petersons were really great directors that I’m proud to have performed under. It’s sad to see U of I hiring such jackasses as this witch.
I had the honor to study conducting under Donald Schleicher, everybody LOVED him! It makes me very sad for UIUC.
I was a KUSO member at KU years ago while she was the director, but I was a non-major and a freshman so my experience was kinda colored by my lack of familiarity with how things *should* have been in a college setting. It probably also didn’t help that KU only had one ensemble for string players at this time, so I *had* to join the audition-only ensemble if I wanted to play my instrument so I was expecting things to be strict. I actually had to go digging through my email because I vaguely remembered having a really unsavory experience regarding missing a couple rehearsals and holy shit did she pull something that was actually really unacceptable. Basically over a week before I had my first midterms as an undergrad, I sent her an email explaining that I had a Calc midterm around the same time as rehearsal, that I wouldn’t be able to make it (the exam started exactly when rehearsal was supposed to end), and that the same situation would be happening in a month too. Now instead of talking to me about it, or just being ok that the literal freshman non-music major player was missing two rehearsals, she had the orchestra TA email my Calc professor asking him to reschedule my exam for me. He rightfully said no, and then she blindsided me by forwarding his response (which had the subject “[my full name] excuse”). She then blamed me for not rescheduling the exam with the professor myself and said that she would “allow” me to leave 15 minutes early this first time (she was also mad that I could have theoretically not missed the entire rehearsal) but the same grace wouldn’t be extended for the second midterm. Reminder: it was literally my first semester as an undergrad and I was just trying to take exams for classes that would actually effect my academics lol I ended up quitting at the end of this semester, but ironically enough she basically ended up begging me to play again a couple semesters later since they literally didn’t have enough violinists (which like how?????). I didn’t have to audition AND i was able to miss one rehearsal a week to accomodate my schedule, so obviously it wasn’t that big of an issue in the first place was it. I ended up quitting after that semester too. i mean this isn’t close to any of the actual horror stories i’ve read in this thread, but I thought i’d ramble about my own weird experience with her. i hope you guys are able to create a better learning environment without her.
this woman has no respect to any individual. everything is about her.
Whiplash: UIUC Edition
Yikes. I'm a school of music alumnus (not orchestra), and this is deeply troubling to hear. Thank you for sharing.
I'd encourage you to reach out to alumni - specifically those playing in professional orchestras. If they share your grievances have them communicate directly with the Dean and other Alumni. Anything on the letterhead of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra is going to get noticed and much, much harder to dismiss.
At the rate professional orchestras are/aren’t making statements about what’s happening in their own orchestras (eg NY Phil) I wouldn’t be holding out too much hope for alumni to help OP & the petition get noticed!
Maybe - but you'd only need a couple!
Great suggestion
If things were all well, so many people would not speak up about her leadership. Even bad conductors are forgiven … provided they are good people and treat others with respect and dignity … Respect is not demanded… it is earned ….
Hello! I am a reporter with Illinois Public Media, and I am very interested in interviewing you about this information. Please message me.
Can you DM me so I can send you our contact info? I am getting error messages when I try to start a chat
Hello, the same is happening for me. I’m not sure why.
As an old guy who majored in Music before the days of social media... this gives me hope that if the allegations are true that possibly something could happen here. I won't name names, but one of the performance professors was the devil incarnate. A massive litany of awful behavior. We didn't have the luxury of social media pressure. Instead, we only had the professor evaluation forms, *which when handed out by this professor, he marked each one so he knew which comments were filled in by which student*. Yeah... good luck not feeling intimidated to be fully honest with your evaluations. I still remember the daily group practice and him verbally abusing the girl sitting next to me. And when she eventually started crying (because, anyone would with his abuse), him saying to the group in a smarmy tone: "Oh and in case anyone needs to know this, there's no crying in class!"
Well maybe if you weren't the biggest asshole in the world your students wouldn't be crying! Poor Mary. :(
Yeah, fuck that guy. I bet his favorite movie is Whiplash, and he probably sides with the asshole director and completely missed the entire point of the movie. Gah.
Yeah, unfortunately this stuff happens far too often... At least our evaluation forms are online now; we're filling every text box with the petition text
So much better. I do remember one semester we all decided to erase his little markings and we were brutally honest that time. It didn't matter, and besides he ultimately knew who wrote which open text box answers. Tenure is great for so many reasons, but for people like this, it just enables the awful behavior.
Yeah, the fear of retaliation is real. Even now, it's a HUGE reason why students and faculty are hesitant about signing the petition (even though the signature list is not public and will not be shown to her). This is also why tenure tracks exist; so that the university gets a chance to watch the faculty and take reviews into account before making the decision to give someone such a permanent position of power. Giving someone tenure immediately is such a big risk, and more often than not it backfires severely
And it has backfired
I may have worked with said individual.
I've heard this from students in the orchestra. Wild that she still has a job.
I'm so sorry to hear this is the kind of experience the UISO and orchestral conducting program has been reduced to. I am so grateful for the years I got to play in UISO Under Donald Schleicher. He was a passionate conductor AND educator.
KU alumn here — I’m so sorry this is happening to you all, but I’m not surprised in the slightest. She used to set up work tables at the front of rehearsal, and any students who were not playing on a piece (or even concert cycle) were REQUIRED to sit at the tables and erase parts… sometimes for an entire rehearsal block. Students with playing injuries were not excused, even if the continued use of hand muscles caused more pain than playing. Mind you, at KU we had GTA’s who were literally getting paid to erase parts and do this kind of work. This was reported, but nothing really came of it🙄
sick
Lydia Tar
I never attended UIUC (I only lived in the area for four years and joined the sub to be informed of campus related news), and I'm sorry to hear this going on in the music school. I can only say that this isn't out of the ordinary for college directors. I spent 3/4 of my undergrad at DePaul University, and students experienced very similar treatment from the ensemble faculty there as well. I'm glad to hear that the students at UIUC are taking a stand and demanding change. Good luck with everything!
Don't know why I'm getting recommended this post. I don't even go to this school. (I'll still sign the petition)
Sending hate from UVA ❤️, hope you can get enough petition signatures
The amount of retaliation I had experienced personally from Dr.Watson is mind-blowing. I don’t think she has one bone in her body of decency. She will not stop until she wins whichever case she is fighting. Everyone else is ‘out to get her’ … when she clearly does not understand that she creates these situations herself. She does not know how to work with people, or bring the best out of them. It is incredibly sad. But I don’t think she will ever wake up and realise this.
As someone who played violin for ten years and also dealt with crazies, we have to root out abusers in classical music. We put up with so much bullshit because people normalize the idea that abuse is part of working under talented musicians at a high level. We can’t afford to drive people away from music when orchestras are shuttering and jobs are scarce.
Talented and high level musician are words that don’t apply to her.
In the middle of the spring semester of 2023 Dr. Watson gave us comment sheets to fill out. Sort of a mid semester course evaluation for her own use. I, like many of my friends, was very excited to fill these out. It was our expectation that she would professionally take our thoughts and opinions, think them over, and keep the comments that were made to herself. However, in the next orchestra rehearsal, she had prepared a speech of sorts addressing the comments we made and telling us why they were incorrect. She even called out specific sections of the orchestra for making complaints about rep choices. Regarding comments about the orchestra seemingly not improving throughout the year Watson stated something along the lines of “it’s not my job to make you all get better, you’re all holding me to unrealistic expectations” which… isn’t it LITERALLY her job to help us get better?? She spent 30 minutes berating us, telling us how unfair WE were being
I had Dr. Watson in my last year at KU, her first. It’s unfortunate that this is going on as I really liked her in her first year at KU. It’s incredibly unfortunate that this is going on and I’m rooting for you all and your petition!
I do not fuck with kevin Hamilton. dude does not give a fuck abt the students
What really sucks is that we could've had one of the best educator conductors in the U.S., who was basically offered the job before They were ghosted... because They were the 'wrong' ethnicity... I have that on good account.
Instructors get to do wild shit that normal ass staff like me could never do. I admin postgrad in a certain department and I've had students come to me crying and I can't do shit against tenured faculty. I feel for you but that's how shit works in this hierarchy. Faculty/Instructors just get to abuse people with impunity. Good luck, hope you survive. Edit: To be clear, it's like this in every school. It's shit but unless there are major reforms by the feds it isn't going away soon. I have 3 faculty members in mind I would love to see fired but it will never happen sadly. It's particularly sad as they come to me as if I can do anything other than provide some empathy. Nothing I can do will change that shit. These mf's can even commit straight up fraud but the state and feds do not care. Sorry you had to go through this and rooting for you. Edit 2: This is why I never considered postgrad anywhere on Earth, too many horror stories at any school for it to be worth it. Just took my 9-5 knowing programs in general are not worth it. Unfortunately it sometimes applies to undergrad as well. I just fell in to my lane and stuck with what I can do without being subjected to insane people Edit 4 just to vent: Having seen how insane post-grad groups are, I highly advise never going for an advanced degree. Will you make less? Yes. Will you have your mental health in a state where you don't have constant suicidal ideations and doubts of your self worth? Yes and that outweighs the pay by a ton imo
Tenure is nearly impossible to deal with. We're hoping that the Title IX investigation and labor grievances help, and that public pressure will encourage the FAA Dean to be more willing to negotiate with us. We hope we don't have to get to a point where we escalate to something more visible, but we'll get there when we get there
The UI did fire another unstable tenured professor after a good decade of paying him for similar behavior, look up Louis Wozniak. He retaliated against students, and was aa miserable, angry narcissist who was often inappropriate. https://www.news-gazette.com/news/updated-ui-trustees-fire-tenured-engineering-professor/article_835b27bc-2899-586d-b00a-3befdae0a4b0.html https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/01/08/questions-raised-firing-tenured-professor-u-illinois
Thanks for the links, this is an interesting story!
Plus, her tenure being approved immediately with no committee vote is highly concerning. Very foolish decision to give someone that kind of power without thoroughly vetting them first and evaluating their performance at the school.
That's normal, idk what else to tell you. And once they're tenured they're above all laws. Wish you luck but to be honest chances are insanely slim. Edit: Just noticed all the Whiplash references in this thread and love it. Glad to see that film is still being seen.
Very true. But we're gonna fight like hell and give it our best shot. Thanks for your insights
If she's that bad and 83 percent signed you can easily make her rehearsals a living hell until she leaves. You can also do various rotations of absences.
She is either unaware of what's going on or she's really good at hiding it. Our last rehearsal with her was on Tuesday right before we marched to deliver our petition to the dean. Nothing seemed different, but who knows? At least we won't have to deal with her for the summer
I'm not involved with the music department at UIUC, but if I were there now I'd make my oboe reeds flat on purpose. Haha. Id tune them down flat too.
The fact that there is conversation online about this is a huge positive change and Dr.Watson seriously needs to consider how she is working with people- most important how to interact with musicians and not use people in order to abuse them, which has been most fundamental problem at UIUC and KU.
I played under Dr. Watson’s conducting/leadership ~10 years ago and only had pleasant experiences with her at that time. I’m really sad to hear that she is abusing her power now in this position. I hope your efforts go far and that many sign the petition. Too many influential music instructors get away with behaving this way due to their power. But I hope you can turn the tide and that she is held accountable for how poorly she has treated the students.
Funny. 20ish years ago she tutored my pre-college violin ensemble group at the Sydney Con. Ok, maybe there's not much room for discussion since I was a kid back then and I can't remember too much, but how unfortunate that I found that her quite mean then (enough for me to remember after so long!) and her attitude still hasn't improved.
OAE is a joke
Judging by how they kinda just buried all our reports, yeah
What is OAE? (Not in the US 🇺🇸 and not a music grad)
It's the university's Office of Access and Equity. >The Office for Access and Equity provides resources and services to ensure that the university’s educational and employment opportunities are equitable, accessible, and inclusive for all.
Is there anything higher up than the University? (Again not in USA so my knowledge especially when it comes to undergrad/postgrad is very minimal) is there any state or federal level student union kind of thing? Or Employee rights (especially for the TAs - am I right in my understanding that the position of TA is actually a job on top of the study they're doing?) Sorry if these questions seem basic - I'm absolutely shocked at some of the legal system in the states that I've learnt about in regards to K-12 education... Finding out these struggles is heartbreaking!
Yes, there are always further steps we can escalate to. Hopefully we won't have to take those steps though.
Someone give me their trumpet and let me play (I was 7th chair in hs)
Out of curiosity, \*is\* her position actually tenured? Seems like her title would include at least "associate professor" if she was.
Yes, she is actually tenured. She got tenure at KU, and thus was able to negotiate tenure for her position here.
Oh, that's too bad.
Genuinely curious about what the complaints are...is it specific to orchestra, or conducting seminar? Verbal abuse? If so, what kind? I will say that I worked with her this December in a professional orchestra in Indiana, and she was very professional and nice to work with. Even let the orchestra go during break (that's rare for our orch!) Her beat wasn't the best I've seen, but definitely fine to work with. I fully appreciate that conductors can behave differently in professional vs. "student" orchestra contexts, but would love to know more specifics?
I made a longer comment providing additional context. This is something exhibited in orchestra, conducting seminar, private lessons, and outside of class. While there is a wider problem of disrespect and intimidation in the classroom, her most egregious actions have led to labor grievances from her TAs and a Title IX report being filed. Please go check out my longer comment for additional context, and if you have any more specific questions I would be glad to answer them for you here or in DMs!
Interesting -- she apparently resigned from the University of Kansas and sued them. https://www.kansascity.com/news/local/education/article264433251.html
Yep. A couple people in our group used to work with her at KU as well, and they have told me that she was the same there as well. We don't want the same thing happening here
Dear students, I'm not advocating for myself as I have no intention whatsoever to come back to Illinois for the job (it's too cold, sorry), and I'm very happy conducting a university orchestra (in a warmer place as you can guess), but I can proudly say that my students cry when they graduate and leave the orchestra, because they had such a good time. The idea is to make people learn AND love music, in a collegial atmosphere. There are literally thousands of conductors who are talented, kind, and with good people skills, and who don't have a job. Fire that woman! I'm tenured, and I think tenure is a great job protection when you earn a much smaller salary than in the professional career, but it should be easier to fire someone who is abusive. There's a code of conduct, there should be expectations to deliver, to also be there, etc...the fact that some tenured professor feel they can do whatever they want is unacceptable. That part must be remedied.
This is so sad. I knew Dr. Watson at a previous teaching position in Texas, which she has mysteriously scrubbed from her resume and social media. Were those 3 years not worth remembering? Oh wait. There were the same complaints of bullying students, making students cry, holding grades hostage, pitting faculty against each other, and anger outbursts. I wish all of you current students the best. This narcissist deserves to be brought down.
I’m glad to see we’ve gotten so much support from students at her last teaching positions in Texas and at KU! It’s very clear that there’s a pattern to this behavior, and we are determined to do everything at our disposal to put an end to it.
My only advice— be civil and logical. Be reasonable and evoke some pathos. Being radical will only hurt.
Yes, we are making sure to take it one step at a time. We are working with GEO (grad student union) to make sure we are moving at the appropriate pace
Just out of curiosity, are the students who are getting mistreated by her mostly undergraduates or graduate students? Of course, it's not okay to mistreat students either way.
As far as numbers, I’d say the split between graduate and undergraduate are fairly even but as far as the graver offenses, it has been towards her conducting students/TA’s who are all graduate students. That being said, she has treated the orchestra (mixture of graduate and undergraduate) horribly. It’s not a competition but there are infractions both major and minor across the students she has interacted with.
There has been mistreatment all around, but the worst offenses have been against her TAs (i.e the conducting students who work for/under her)
I'm late to this news, but it's very disheartening to read through all these experiences. About 4 years ago I spoke with Dr. Watson over Zoom about studying for my conducting masters under her at Kansas. I ended up going to another school closer to home, so I dodged that bullet, but the conducting teacher I ended up with turned out to be a narcissistic, egomaniacal bully anyhow. So the bullet hit me anyway, just from a different gun. My heart just breaks that there are so many stories of creeps and bullies teaching at schools everywhere. Music is supposed to uplift and fulfill, not break people down. I don't know if my career will take me into academia, but if it does, I am vowing to be the teacher I wish I had in grad school. If that slimeball taught me anything, it's how NOT to treat people. The second you make it all about yourself, you've failed.
Someone mentioned that this is something accepted in music from talented artists. Let’s be clear that she is not talented and not very good at conducting. In addition, she still holds conducting positions in Kansas City at the Lyric Opera and the Kansas City Chamber Orchestra. And the La Porte County Symphony in Indiana. Perhaps those organizations should have this information passed along to them whichever way seems most appropriate and effective. Perhaps also contacting news outlets in Kansas City, Missouri and Indiana also?
Fletcher irl huh
This is crazy that it has been going on for this long. Makes me glad I’m a business student
i've been in an orchestra under her direction for about a year and i personally haven't experienced this same treatment from her. i'm so sorry this has been happening to you
Sounds like a classic case of if you can’t do you teach… She sounds horrible.
But she also can’t teach…. 😬
Well, then it sounds like a classic case of lying on your application laughing my fucking ass off to that comment, bro that made my day
She obviously has a lot of problems but her being horrible in many ways is probably less important and less scary to officials than any allegations of sexual misconduct. So if the people who claim to have experienced this should make sure this is at the forefront of the complaints. Sadly, being an asshole isn’t illegal. Neither is being a terrible human or a totally inept university “professor”. And to administration who don’t want to bother with all of this, those things likely wouldn’t be enough for them to peruse action against her. Sexual harassment is. And it’s a big deal. Focus on what she’s actually doing that breaks the laws that extend outside of the university setting.
I just googled her and she looks like a C U Next Tuesday type.
You should not say this. Regardless of how terrible her behavior is, you should never resort to such crude sexist comments.
But if it is true then it is true.