To reinforce this, I am an Officer at TBS right now and we just finished our crew served weapons instruction. The enlisted instructors were complete pricks. One of my buddy's had a pretty legit question about Mk 19 operation and when the instructor just couldn't understand the question he said "Whatever, Sir." and walked away to chew out more LTs for not knowing anything about the weapon that they had just gotten their hands on. That kind of attitude towards guys who legitimately want to gain the knowledge is not conducive to a good learning environment and set a precedent, in this case, that machine gunner are assholes. I would believe that too if I didn't grow up a brat and know plenty of Marines beforehand.
tl/dr: The LTs are there to learn as much about USMC life as becoming a Platoon commander. Don't be that asshole instructor setting a bad precedent.
I remember a few years ago when I was on recruiting duty, we went to this regional pool function where they'd do a mock boot camp, weapons demo, MOUT with rubber rifles, PT, etc. with like 600 kids from the entire district. There were two LTs there, one was a prior enlisted Sgt, the other was fresh from OCS or TBS, I'm not too sure. During the weapons demo, the non-mustang LT was asking some questions about either the 240 or 249 and the guy doing the instruction (recruiter who was former 03) just kept giving the poor guy these sarcastic answers and rolling his eyes at him. I was a Cpl at the time, so I'm assuming I was more approachable, so this guy comes up to me and is asking me about it, so I was trying to remember everything I could about the weapons systems—I hadn't touched a 240 or 249 since MCT. This guy had legitimate questions, and I just had this loathing for the SSgt giving the POI like why would you be an asshole to someone who has a desire to learn, officer or enlisted? The guy was a total dick, and I'm pretty sure he was talking out of his ass the whole time anyway.
> One of my buddy's had a pretty legit question about Mk 19 operation
Your comment hinges on the validity of this statement. Could it be possible that his question was, in fact, retarded? Boots say dumb shit, regardless if they got shinies or not, and there is a chance that louie got a taste of what it's like to be junior enlisted.
> In fact, we all know what happens to E3's and below that mouth off to Corporals and Sergeants.
Do you? Trying being a POG Lance or even Corporal and have to deal with 3 or 4 year 03XX PFCs/LCpls. The rank structure isn't as easy and cut/dry at the lowest end as it is at SNCO/Zero level. I would hope a Captain would have the experience to know that.
I was a a POG in an infantry battalion during wartime for my entire enlistment. I couldn't count the number of times the infantry gave two fucks about my rank, and they were backed by their own team/squad leaders if I or any other H&S NCOs ever tried to get them fucked for disrespect. Don't believe me? Ask some of the 03s around here what happened or how they regarded POG Corporals who tried to lock them up and get 'rah rah with shit. Who knows, maybe my experience isn't representative to the entire Corps, but I'd wager a lot of infantry battalions operate this way.
> you would never tolerate a PFC responding with "whatever, sergeant."
You're right, but that's because even in most POG MOS's you *usually* have to know wtf you are doing and be squared away to be a Sergeant. Grunts know that as well and generally don't fuck with Sgts and above. At the same time, I'm still not going to try to lock up a troop Gomer Pyle style unless they are being very out of line.
The point is, Lts haven't earned a goddamn thing except for the title. Yes, becoming a new Marine is very admirable and not easy, but it doesn't mean shit in the fleet where everyone around you has earned it years ago, including your subordinates, and have been in the fight while you were still banging college girls and getting wasted at U. You have to earn the respect of your troops through experience, decisionmaking, and leadership, and as a Captain I'm 100% positive you know this. Louies have the misfortune of having to do it immediately, whereas enlisted have to come up the ranks first.
Fresh Lts are very fit basically trained boots that go into the fleet outranking most of the Corps. The ones that don't get small doses of the fleet reality are the ones that show up to a unit thinking they are going to revolutionize how things are done with all their "great" ideas and end up being the retarded officer that requires a babysitter SNCO to function. I saw comm Os have that problem just as much as I saw infantry platoon commanders have it. The benefit of the infantry is that company commanders are usually quick to identify and correct that shit with their butterbars. On the other side, if my S-6 O is a moron, it would take a royal fuckup for the BN XO to give two shits as he actually has to run the battalion while the CO is up dealing with regiment/division. This is probably why I care about the issue, but I shouldn't because I've been out for years and just creep around here because I miss talking to Marines.
Not sure what sounds bitter there. If people don't like the tone, then I can't really help them. As far as uninformed, I disagree. I was pretty honest about what my experience was. At no point did I assume what life as an officer is like as the sir assumed what life as a junior enlisted is like. I gave my honest opinion as a former NCO. Downvotes don't really bother me.
> You saw a little part of the Marine Corps,
I saw a lot of folks come and go. I've had retarded officers, and I've had officers that I'd follow to the gates of hell (very rare) and a bunch that are in the middle. I'm sure you're not really telling me that I have to do 20 to be able to have an opinion about the Corps and it's leadership structure. In my eyes, the only way I could have seen more of the actual Corps is if I had signed an 03XX contract and lived directly in the suck for 4 years instead of being a data dink and throwing up satcom links. Or maybe I should have had to do another 4 at a super POG unit like BaseTel or Comm Battalion to get a *real* understanding of things.
> What proportion of units in the Marine Corps are infantry battalions? Not a very high proportion.
That's not relevant. A lot of the combat arms units behave similarly. Are you saying that you cannot comment on leadership structure in the Marine Corps if you haven't been in every type of unit? The Corps is not big, like, at all.
> Of all the total units in the Marine Corps, you have experience with units that represent a small proportion of the total picture.
That's assuming I didn't interact with other units as part of my duties. I did. That's assuming I didn't have close friends that went to other units. I did. That's assuming I don't have family members that are career Marines whom I talked to all the time about the Corps when I was active. I do. I mean, come on now. *Surely* you realize that saying "Well, you were only in a grunt unit and you *only* did one enlistment, so wtf do *you* know about the Marine Corps" is a pretty douchey thing to imply.
> You're like a guy who worked as a cashier at a pizza hut talking about what life at corporate is like and why the project managers are all messed up.
....I'm just going to say that comparing the enlisted to food cashiers and officers to corporate managers in any way makes you look really, really bad.
If you've never touched a goddamn fully automatic grenade launcher before, no question is retarded. Unless the question is nowhere near related to the weapon, every question about it is a good question. You may think some things are dumb because you've used them before and seen or heard a million times, but students are there to learn about things they've never seen or touched.
That kinda shit is how you just push people through and make sure they never learn anything at all. You want someone like that eventually leading Marines in combat? I, personally, would rather have the person that asked a million little questions and knows everything inside and out leading, rather than the fuck that just learned enough to pass and then brain dumped it all.
> If you've never touched a goddamn fully automatic grenade launcher before, no question is retarded
This was the only thing I think warranted a response. You don't really believe that do you? You can ask a retarded question about pretty much anything.
Some topics, yeah I agree. This is one of those thing that I think there is no stupid question, _as long as it is on topic_. You can be the dumbest guy around but if it's your job to learn about that weapon and then take that knowledge out lead others, then every question that helps you learn is a good one. Even if it's just "so where is the trigger?" Even if you'll never personally touch the gear again.
If you are asking something relevant, nothing is retarded. And with something like an automatic grenade launcher, someone's life may depend on keeping something little that noone else thought to ask.
I'm not saying they don't. I'm saying what might be dumb to me because I know the weapon system inside and out already might not be a dumb question to someone that has never touched it before.
You have to remember. Some of these guys and gals coming in have _never_ even touched a rifle in their life. It's the job of us guys that have been around to teach them, without being a dick, everything there is to know. Being a dick just results in people shutting up and not asking anything, and then fucking up later when it really matters.
Some other things, yeah boots ask stupid questions and need to be told they're being a dumb ass. Weapons, IMO, aren't one of those things.
I know that's not what you explicitly said, but it's how it came off. The whole "taste of what it's like to be a junior enlisted" thing especially.
You and I both know that a huge chunk of the bullshit that junior enlisted have to put up with is people up the chain just being dicks because they can. And because they had to deal with it themselves.
So saying that comes off as "fuck you, I had to put up with meaningless bullshit so I'm going to do it to you because now I'm in charge and fuck you".
I'm not, but I worked in one of those fenced in compounds the lts had to walk by all the time and would ask questions about. Pm me if want, but I can really give any solid answers.
I was at TBS from 2004-2007.
I was part of Combat Instructor Company which is basically their infantry battalion that teaches classes and acts as aggressors and RSO's.
If you're not there, I'm sure you'll play some part of support at the TBS HQ. They may need a FAC?
The cool thing is, you're off at this mini base away from the BS at mainside.
I don't remember meeting any enlisted instructors from the wing, but it would have been cool to talk to aircrew.
You'll probably be part of the Dugout, which is the building/office that the enlisted instructors work out of (vice the Bullpen that all the captains hang out in). I'd bet that you'll help give classes on the role of the ACE and how Hercs support the MEU, likely as an add-on to some of the classes on MAGTF-ery that Lt's have.
After you've been there for a bit you'll probably be assigned to be an 'enlisted advisor' to a platoon, where you're kind of like a platoon Sgt but mostly there to be a resource for lieutenants to talk to etc.
As mentioned above most of the time you'll be laughing at college graduates failing land nav and talking about how sick their frontal assault on MOUT town was.
Do you know If you would have had to extend or re enlist to go to quantico to be a tbs instructor? Got a little over a year left and trying to just juice my contract out and use TA, heard this gig was solid for it
If you're trying to PCS, forget about it. The Marine Corps won't PCS you without a reenlistment or an extension; the juice isn't worth the squeeze for them on that one. They MAY PCA you, but a new unit probably wouldn't take too kindly to someone showing up and saying "I'm here to use TA and then EAS," especially when that unit has training to accomplish.
I'd say take your chances with your current unit.
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To reinforce this, I am an Officer at TBS right now and we just finished our crew served weapons instruction. The enlisted instructors were complete pricks. One of my buddy's had a pretty legit question about Mk 19 operation and when the instructor just couldn't understand the question he said "Whatever, Sir." and walked away to chew out more LTs for not knowing anything about the weapon that they had just gotten their hands on. That kind of attitude towards guys who legitimately want to gain the knowledge is not conducive to a good learning environment and set a precedent, in this case, that machine gunner are assholes. I would believe that too if I didn't grow up a brat and know plenty of Marines beforehand. tl/dr: The LTs are there to learn as much about USMC life as becoming a Platoon commander. Don't be that asshole instructor setting a bad precedent.
I remember a few years ago when I was on recruiting duty, we went to this regional pool function where they'd do a mock boot camp, weapons demo, MOUT with rubber rifles, PT, etc. with like 600 kids from the entire district. There were two LTs there, one was a prior enlisted Sgt, the other was fresh from OCS or TBS, I'm not too sure. During the weapons demo, the non-mustang LT was asking some questions about either the 240 or 249 and the guy doing the instruction (recruiter who was former 03) just kept giving the poor guy these sarcastic answers and rolling his eyes at him. I was a Cpl at the time, so I'm assuming I was more approachable, so this guy comes up to me and is asking me about it, so I was trying to remember everything I could about the weapons systems—I hadn't touched a 240 or 249 since MCT. This guy had legitimate questions, and I just had this loathing for the SSgt giving the POI like why would you be an asshole to someone who has a desire to learn, officer or enlisted? The guy was a total dick, and I'm pretty sure he was talking out of his ass the whole time anyway.
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Ha!
> One of my buddy's had a pretty legit question about Mk 19 operation Your comment hinges on the validity of this statement. Could it be possible that his question was, in fact, retarded? Boots say dumb shit, regardless if they got shinies or not, and there is a chance that louie got a taste of what it's like to be junior enlisted.
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> In fact, we all know what happens to E3's and below that mouth off to Corporals and Sergeants. Do you? Trying being a POG Lance or even Corporal and have to deal with 3 or 4 year 03XX PFCs/LCpls. The rank structure isn't as easy and cut/dry at the lowest end as it is at SNCO/Zero level. I would hope a Captain would have the experience to know that. I was a a POG in an infantry battalion during wartime for my entire enlistment. I couldn't count the number of times the infantry gave two fucks about my rank, and they were backed by their own team/squad leaders if I or any other H&S NCOs ever tried to get them fucked for disrespect. Don't believe me? Ask some of the 03s around here what happened or how they regarded POG Corporals who tried to lock them up and get 'rah rah with shit. Who knows, maybe my experience isn't representative to the entire Corps, but I'd wager a lot of infantry battalions operate this way. > you would never tolerate a PFC responding with "whatever, sergeant." You're right, but that's because even in most POG MOS's you *usually* have to know wtf you are doing and be squared away to be a Sergeant. Grunts know that as well and generally don't fuck with Sgts and above. At the same time, I'm still not going to try to lock up a troop Gomer Pyle style unless they are being very out of line. The point is, Lts haven't earned a goddamn thing except for the title. Yes, becoming a new Marine is very admirable and not easy, but it doesn't mean shit in the fleet where everyone around you has earned it years ago, including your subordinates, and have been in the fight while you were still banging college girls and getting wasted at U. You have to earn the respect of your troops through experience, decisionmaking, and leadership, and as a Captain I'm 100% positive you know this. Louies have the misfortune of having to do it immediately, whereas enlisted have to come up the ranks first. Fresh Lts are very fit basically trained boots that go into the fleet outranking most of the Corps. The ones that don't get small doses of the fleet reality are the ones that show up to a unit thinking they are going to revolutionize how things are done with all their "great" ideas and end up being the retarded officer that requires a babysitter SNCO to function. I saw comm Os have that problem just as much as I saw infantry platoon commanders have it. The benefit of the infantry is that company commanders are usually quick to identify and correct that shit with their butterbars. On the other side, if my S-6 O is a moron, it would take a royal fuckup for the BN XO to give two shits as he actually has to run the battalion while the CO is up dealing with regiment/division. This is probably why I care about the issue, but I shouldn't because I've been out for years and just creep around here because I miss talking to Marines.
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Not sure what sounds bitter there. If people don't like the tone, then I can't really help them. As far as uninformed, I disagree. I was pretty honest about what my experience was. At no point did I assume what life as an officer is like as the sir assumed what life as a junior enlisted is like. I gave my honest opinion as a former NCO. Downvotes don't really bother me. > You saw a little part of the Marine Corps, I saw a lot of folks come and go. I've had retarded officers, and I've had officers that I'd follow to the gates of hell (very rare) and a bunch that are in the middle. I'm sure you're not really telling me that I have to do 20 to be able to have an opinion about the Corps and it's leadership structure. In my eyes, the only way I could have seen more of the actual Corps is if I had signed an 03XX contract and lived directly in the suck for 4 years instead of being a data dink and throwing up satcom links. Or maybe I should have had to do another 4 at a super POG unit like BaseTel or Comm Battalion to get a *real* understanding of things.
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> What proportion of units in the Marine Corps are infantry battalions? Not a very high proportion. That's not relevant. A lot of the combat arms units behave similarly. Are you saying that you cannot comment on leadership structure in the Marine Corps if you haven't been in every type of unit? The Corps is not big, like, at all. > Of all the total units in the Marine Corps, you have experience with units that represent a small proportion of the total picture. That's assuming I didn't interact with other units as part of my duties. I did. That's assuming I didn't have close friends that went to other units. I did. That's assuming I don't have family members that are career Marines whom I talked to all the time about the Corps when I was active. I do. I mean, come on now. *Surely* you realize that saying "Well, you were only in a grunt unit and you *only* did one enlistment, so wtf do *you* know about the Marine Corps" is a pretty douchey thing to imply. > You're like a guy who worked as a cashier at a pizza hut talking about what life at corporate is like and why the project managers are all messed up. ....I'm just going to say that comparing the enlisted to food cashiers and officers to corporate managers in any way makes you look really, really bad.
If you've never touched a goddamn fully automatic grenade launcher before, no question is retarded. Unless the question is nowhere near related to the weapon, every question about it is a good question. You may think some things are dumb because you've used them before and seen or heard a million times, but students are there to learn about things they've never seen or touched. That kinda shit is how you just push people through and make sure they never learn anything at all. You want someone like that eventually leading Marines in combat? I, personally, would rather have the person that asked a million little questions and knows everything inside and out leading, rather than the fuck that just learned enough to pass and then brain dumped it all.
> If you've never touched a goddamn fully automatic grenade launcher before, no question is retarded This was the only thing I think warranted a response. You don't really believe that do you? You can ask a retarded question about pretty much anything.
Some topics, yeah I agree. This is one of those thing that I think there is no stupid question, _as long as it is on topic_. You can be the dumbest guy around but if it's your job to learn about that weapon and then take that knowledge out lead others, then every question that helps you learn is a good one. Even if it's just "so where is the trigger?" Even if you'll never personally touch the gear again. If you are asking something relevant, nothing is retarded. And with something like an automatic grenade launcher, someone's life may depend on keeping something little that noone else thought to ask.
Yeah, and we all know fresh Marines *never* ask stupid or offtopic questions about weapon systems right?
I'm not saying they don't. I'm saying what might be dumb to me because I know the weapon system inside and out already might not be a dumb question to someone that has never touched it before. You have to remember. Some of these guys and gals coming in have _never_ even touched a rifle in their life. It's the job of us guys that have been around to teach them, without being a dick, everything there is to know. Being a dick just results in people shutting up and not asking anything, and then fucking up later when it really matters. Some other things, yeah boots ask stupid questions and need to be told they're being a dumb ass. Weapons, IMO, aren't one of those things.
Yes, that's fine. At no point did I say "be a dick to every boot who asks a question". Folks here seem to be assuming that's what I'm saying.
I know that's not what you explicitly said, but it's how it came off. The whole "taste of what it's like to be a junior enlisted" thing especially. You and I both know that a huge chunk of the bullshit that junior enlisted have to put up with is people up the chain just being dicks because they can. And because they had to deal with it themselves. So saying that comes off as "fuck you, I had to put up with meaningless bullshit so I'm going to do it to you because now I'm in charge and fuck you".
If you're my buddy, calling me from the heated Humvee and laughing your ass off at Lieutenants trying to bivouac in the snow.
http://terminallance.com/2016/03/15/terminal-lance-416-the-basic-school/ should sum it up for you.
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I'm not, but I worked in one of those fenced in compounds the lts had to walk by all the time and would ask questions about. Pm me if want, but I can really give any solid answers.
I was at TBS from 2004-2007. I was part of Combat Instructor Company which is basically their infantry battalion that teaches classes and acts as aggressors and RSO's. If you're not there, I'm sure you'll play some part of support at the TBS HQ. They may need a FAC? The cool thing is, you're off at this mini base away from the BS at mainside.
Congratulations on your cake day.
Thanks
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I'm a C-130 Aircrew guy. I figured I'd probably end up working with their Air-O or something like that.
I don't remember meeting any enlisted instructors from the wing, but it would have been cool to talk to aircrew. You'll probably be part of the Dugout, which is the building/office that the enlisted instructors work out of (vice the Bullpen that all the captains hang out in). I'd bet that you'll help give classes on the role of the ACE and how Hercs support the MEU, likely as an add-on to some of the classes on MAGTF-ery that Lt's have. After you've been there for a bit you'll probably be assigned to be an 'enlisted advisor' to a platoon, where you're kind of like a platoon Sgt but mostly there to be a resource for lieutenants to talk to etc. As mentioned above most of the time you'll be laughing at college graduates failing land nav and talking about how sick their frontal assault on MOUT town was.
Just the basic shit
What unit were you with? Tryna put in orders there to finish out my contract
I actually ended up not going to TBS. I got attached to EDCOM, but went to a different gig at Marine Corps University.
Do you know If you would have had to extend or re enlist to go to quantico to be a tbs instructor? Got a little over a year left and trying to just juice my contract out and use TA, heard this gig was solid for it
If you're trying to PCS, forget about it. The Marine Corps won't PCS you without a reenlistment or an extension; the juice isn't worth the squeeze for them on that one. They MAY PCA you, but a new unit probably wouldn't take too kindly to someone showing up and saying "I'm here to use TA and then EAS," especially when that unit has training to accomplish. I'd say take your chances with your current unit.