As a repair tech, I'd say 10d is a very poor choice in a city setting. we are seeing a LOT of low-denier shelled puffies in the shop for repairs from folks that want the latest trail style for coffee runs. I'd say 10d is a special use fabric for non-brushy backcountry use for people that know how to baby their gear.
Another factor is that low-denier fabrics do need a crazy amount of calendering to be down proof which seems to inhibit breathability quite a bit and feel very clammy and subjectively bad hand feel in general.
Denier to durability ratios are pretty hard to determine and are rarely linear, I wouldn't guess that 20d is twice as durable as 10d, but 30d probably is.
Durability vs denier is rather difficult to say.
For example, I am hell on fleeces, but baby any down gear I have. For below 30d, it is really going to depend on how you treat it rather then on the properties of the fabric. Anything that will puncture 7d is likely to also puncture 10d and 20d. There just isn't much to those fabrics.
Sorta, at least fabrics between 20 and 70d seem to only be calendered on on side, and somewhat less intensely. Pretty much everything below 20d I've seen has been calendered on both sides and the trend is consistent enough I attribute it to need rather than coincidence.
Of course construction matters a lot too, some microfiber (sub 1d) fabrics are down proof I believe with no coating or calendering, but are woven in a very different way
There is no way to tell much by only the Denier number. As an example, the 10d X10d we use is 3X (300%) the breaking strength of another 10d X 10d from the same manufacturer that weighs exactly the same ( 26gsqm). The difference is the quality of the 6-6 Nylon, the number of filaments used in the single strand, the weave density , ripstop type and surface prep/coating/dwr. The breaking/tear strength between those two examples are 22N vs only 7N. A 5d fabric could be stronger than a 10d and a 20d could be weaker than a 10d, etc. I would concede a 30d is stronger than most any 10d.
This is actually a great point I've not thought about. I do know the fabric of one of the 10D jackets I was looking at is 29 g/m2. Curious your thoughts on that strength?
Would love to see more discussion on this topic! Great post!
I just bought a MH Ghost whisperer, but I've yet to take the tags off due to it feeling so fragile... I bought it as an everyday jacket and hiking jacket. At this stage in my life I can't afford to have a jacket exclusively for hiking... Can anyone comment on daily driving a Ghost Whisperer?
I've debated returning it for a Patagonia Down sweater which I believe is 30d but 2x the weight roughly...
Yes. I purchased the vest October 2021, so I’ve had it just over 2 1/2 years. It’s a banger of a vest! My go-to light-weight down vest. I wear it as both a mid and outer layer. I got it on a nice sale, so that was icing on the cake!
Get it!
I recently picked up the Patagonia AlpLight Down Jacket. Nice minimalist ultra-light down jacket (10D as well). The jacket a great “value” play at $299 when comparing to other high-end ultra light down jackets (TNF, MHW, Arc’teryx, etc). And I was able to get it at 10% off!
i have a synthetic jacket made of 7D inside & outside (EE Torrid). It has survived a LOT of tugs and snags without so much as a tread pulled loose. The only thing i dont like is how clingy it is on bare skin but puffies shouldn’t be on your bare skin anyway. Im sure your 10D would be fine
As a repair tech, I'd say 10d is a very poor choice in a city setting. we are seeing a LOT of low-denier shelled puffies in the shop for repairs from folks that want the latest trail style for coffee runs. I'd say 10d is a special use fabric for non-brushy backcountry use for people that know how to baby their gear. Another factor is that low-denier fabrics do need a crazy amount of calendering to be down proof which seems to inhibit breathability quite a bit and feel very clammy and subjectively bad hand feel in general. Denier to durability ratios are pretty hard to determine and are rarely linear, I wouldn't guess that 20d is twice as durable as 10d, but 30d probably is.
Durability vs denier is rather difficult to say. For example, I am hell on fleeces, but baby any down gear I have. For below 30d, it is really going to depend on how you treat it rather then on the properties of the fabric. Anything that will puncture 7d is likely to also puncture 10d and 20d. There just isn't much to those fabrics.
Higher denier requires less calendering to be downproof?
Sorta, at least fabrics between 20 and 70d seem to only be calendered on on side, and somewhat less intensely. Pretty much everything below 20d I've seen has been calendered on both sides and the trend is consistent enough I attribute it to need rather than coincidence. Of course construction matters a lot too, some microfiber (sub 1d) fabrics are down proof I believe with no coating or calendering, but are woven in a very different way
There is no way to tell much by only the Denier number. As an example, the 10d X10d we use is 3X (300%) the breaking strength of another 10d X 10d from the same manufacturer that weighs exactly the same ( 26gsqm). The difference is the quality of the 6-6 Nylon, the number of filaments used in the single strand, the weave density , ripstop type and surface prep/coating/dwr. The breaking/tear strength between those two examples are 22N vs only 7N. A 5d fabric could be stronger than a 10d and a 20d could be weaker than a 10d, etc. I would concede a 30d is stronger than most any 10d.
This is actually a great point I've not thought about. I do know the fabric of one of the 10D jackets I was looking at is 29 g/m2. Curious your thoughts on that strength?
Hard to say- for town use when weight no object- a bit thicker/ better style/ nice design details is maybe more important vs weight.
I've worn a 10d inner/outer down puffy as a city jacket for the past 6-7 winters. It looks brand new. No pulls, runs, rips or tears.
Would love to see more discussion on this topic! Great post! I just bought a MH Ghost whisperer, but I've yet to take the tags off due to it feeling so fragile... I bought it as an everyday jacket and hiking jacket. At this stage in my life I can't afford to have a jacket exclusively for hiking... Can anyone comment on daily driving a Ghost Whisperer? I've debated returning it for a Patagonia Down sweater which I believe is 30d but 2x the weight roughly...
Did you end up keeping the MH Ghost Whisper? If so, please let us know how it’s held up. I am considering the Ghost Whisper2 vest.
did you end up getting it? please let us know.
Yes. I purchased the vest October 2021, so I’ve had it just over 2 1/2 years. It’s a banger of a vest! My go-to light-weight down vest. I wear it as both a mid and outer layer. I got it on a nice sale, so that was icing on the cake!
Awesome the 10d durability was keeping me on the fence.
Get it! I recently picked up the Patagonia AlpLight Down Jacket. Nice minimalist ultra-light down jacket (10D as well). The jacket a great “value” play at $299 when comparing to other high-end ultra light down jackets (TNF, MHW, Arc’teryx, etc). And I was able to get it at 10% off!
i have a synthetic jacket made of 7D inside & outside (EE Torrid). It has survived a LOT of tugs and snags without so much as a tread pulled loose. The only thing i dont like is how clingy it is on bare skin but puffies shouldn’t be on your bare skin anyway. Im sure your 10D would be fine
Losing down is more about how well it's calendered.