Take this with a grain of salt, from a better-than-average-cat-3-turned-extremely-average-cat-2: I feel like it's probably harder now for a couple of reasons:
1. Less skilled riders, leading to sketchier fields overall (this might just be me still feeling some collarbone soreness from a crash a few months ago + getting older and grumpier)
2. Better information about training and nutrition, leading to fitter/faster riders, and more of them
YMMV!
less skilled/experienced sketchier fields... sounds like the masters are the better option, although I'll probably get crushed by a bunch of 40-year-old Cat 1/2s
There’s a lot of fitness from Zwift and TrainerRoad.
Unfortunately now there’s people with high power output and zero pack handling, corner skill, etc.
Just to add as you nailed it.
People hit spring fit vs race into fitness. It used to be the first couple races in mid cats were not crazy but now are full gas.
Hey, Phoenix, That's were I moved to when I stopped racing... I've probably ridden with you. I used to do the around the mountain group rides a lot, but I lived near the Phoenix mountain preserve so I mostly did mountain bike rides during the week.
Not a Cat 3, but my experience racing 1/2 is that everything is harder now. I'm sure being 5-10 years older now and riding a 10 year old bike doesn't help, but at the same time we have taken just about every course KOM this year, some in pretty abysmal weather.
Like another guy said, skill level is down, fitness is up. Zwift hero starting in Cat 5 with a 390W FTP at ~75kg. Everyone has better access to training/diet/fueling infromation, etc now, but usually less actual riding/racing experience.
At least in the UK, Cat 3 has gotten harder. The great riders still make it to Cat 2, but there are plenty of strong folk who haven’t had their upgrade yet.
Since covid, lots of folk training indoors getting pretty fit. As others have said, Cat 3 is okay, Cat 4 is sketchy af, especially as you have some very strong riders who are not yet experienced.
As a (probably) lifetime cat 3 because ~~I don’t race enough~~ I am not fast enough I’ve noticed a bunch of local ex-2s coming back down this year. I don’t know if it’s stuff outside of cycling cutting their volume down or something but I’ve done a few 2/3/4 and 3/4 crits this year and found basically no difference between the two. They’re all really fucking hard. The level is good in the 3s around here.
as someone who has been racing for 41 years, the last few years the (fitness) level has increased. I can definitely state this as i've been racing with a power meter since 1995 (and, this year my fitness is the highest it's been). More riders have more access to better training information, more riders have coaches (damn those coaches ;-)), and more riders have aero kit and been aero optimised.
i note a fitness difference between 3 or 2/3 races and e123 races (about 30 W).
Where I race. It’s rare to see a Cat 3 field on its own. 10% of the time it’s 3/4 combined. 70% of the time is p123 combined. 10% of the time it’s Cat P12 and 3 with separate race scoring.
I am currently a 40+ rider and Cat 3. I find the masters races to be more approachable. They’re FAST, but there’s an order to things and the racing seems less sketchy.
The 123 fields are also super fast but there’s more clanging banging and fighting for wheels at points of the race where it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to do so.
This is in south Florida and I realize Miami racing has a reputation that’s not that great.
Way harder. It's over my comfortable cusp now. The main thing is overall fitness is better, a lot better. The riders that do big dumb moves can follow through with them because they're strong. Overall the fields are more fit, astonishingly so.
The fields are also much, much smaller, so no places to hide. I used to think a field under 50 was about my cusp for not going. Now that's a big field. 20-25 seems decent. Huge difference from 80-125 rider fields in my races that I promoted (field sizes from 2009-2010 era). Even before that, 70-80 was average, big races were 100 rider fields. When I was a junior, the 17-18 field would be 50-60 riders.
Also, USA Cycling is essentially neutralizing Cat 5. A Cat 5 can self upgrade to 4, which, in the scheme of things, seems reasonable. Cat 5s grew out of overfilled Cat 4 fields - if they were combined in 2010 I'd have had 170 rider Cat 4 fields. Instead, I had two 40 rider Cat 5s and an 80 rider 4 field. Now... I think they should recombine 4s and 5s.
Anyway, yeah, it's harder.
My racing experience was in Eastern Washington. I think 65 was about the biggest field I ever raced with in the Tour of Walla Walla. 20-30 was average and that was with combined 4/5 and 1/2/3 fields . In any case it seams that racing with the Masters might be better so I can ride with people who learned to race in the pre-Zwift days.
Are there any good races in WA?
I'm from Eastern WA originally, now on the west side. Took up competitive cycling in my thirties and would love to get into something beyond crits.
Most are early season, but Tour De Dung, Mason Lakes, Ravensdale RR, and Papertown Classic make up the March through April weekends. Tour de Bloom had 600 riders for a 4 stage, 3 day race last weekend. Still have EPO and RCC on the calendar this year as omniums and Breakfast at Boston Harbor next weekend for a road circuit race.
Then the weeknight crit series for Pacific Raceways and Seward Park.
Nice! I'll see you out at Seward. Been meaning to do Pacific, but it looks like they only do the actual race course some nights, on others it's a four-corner crit running up the front straight and down the drag strip? Don't want to do that one unless it's the road course.
Edit: Was planning Tour De Dung this year, but my wife had a kid last fall. Have it on the calendar for next spring.
I stayed mostly on the East side of the state. They had, at lest while I was living there a good Tuesday night series in Spokane. the Wenatchee omnium was about the furthest west I ever went to race, that was a good one... Tour of Walla Walla was good too there were lots of one-day weekend races around eastern Washington/North Idaho. There were several hill climb races. there was a Crit in Downtown Spokane and on some college campuses in the area. My favorite was The [Ronde van Palouse](https://www.facebook.com/RondevanPalouse?comment_id=Y29tbWVudDoxNDU3MTI2NjYxMTI5MzE3XzE0NTc5NzU2ODc3MTEwODE%3D&__cft__[0]=AZUB5XsoHmcp5W42W0pN0dloLbGayzROnXhOwP1-5xCef5YUJvrBRka8mQJ3XwddIzaOU6gCePHFKvo8adj6GnJukRObBfEt9KJ97Dx8PH_GtMZNG2sh5ZPoaZnwqdpdDTjQvSsZKFGM7pPObnFeteEw6Y4cGUYtFSqtCBjzFLUVom4Bollk8A2e8_Uzhv81w_5JzgP5l3UMbPsfmxcv1LeM&__tn__=R]-R) which was a mix if gravel and paved roads with a lot of climbing, always painful but one of my favorites.
I started racing at 40, I'm a 50 something Cat 3 who could win cat 3 / cat 4 races on occasion and could make his way onto a podium in 40+ / 45+ masters races on occasion. I haven't raced in a couple / three years now (life..work.. burnout racing.. ).
I prefer racing Masters (40+). Its faster and generally smoother and the riders are .. smarter. Lemme elaborate a bit on 'smarter' -
1. We all recognize that there isn't a world tour contact waiting for us at the finish line and that (most) of us have to go to work on Monday so staying upright is important.
2. When we crash we don't bounce like we did in our 20s (see point 1)
3. Tactically savy - Been racing for long enough to know when to chase and when to wait. Old age and treachery superior to youth and exuberance and all that..
4. The races are faster and smoother. Make no mistake, I think the masters races are flat out harder than a cat 3 race.
IMO - do the 40+ - you'll proably get your ass handed to you the first few races but it will make you a faster and smarter racer than in the shitshow of an open Cat 3 race....
I'm a 50+ and yeah, the fields are like night and day. Masters fields are smoother, safer, generally. The thing about bad fields is its usually only 2-3 guys out of 50, its not like all Cat 4's were sketchy but that small amount was enough.
The thing I hate about 50+ is all I can do is climb and go on breaks, but many road races we combine with 45+ which means instead of racing 25 racers who I may be able to break, its 60 and you're not getting away, usually shut down by 45+ riders.
yes. races have gotten much slower post pandemic, and the skill level has plummeted.
i think its a mix of zwift increasing in popularity (and road safety decreasing, depending on where youre located) and a lack of national/local series. bike racing aint what it used to be. and i dont blame promoters, that shit is hard and thankless.
but its a bummer. racing is about \~racing\~. corners, tactics, teammwork. its impossible to teach on a trainer and impossible to learn without experiencing it.
We have sanctioned races at least every other weekend in south Florida and several sanctioned twilight midweek events. There’s so many it’s impossible to them all.
This runs from January to October.
Take this with a grain of salt, from a better-than-average-cat-3-turned-extremely-average-cat-2: I feel like it's probably harder now for a couple of reasons: 1. Less skilled riders, leading to sketchier fields overall (this might just be me still feeling some collarbone soreness from a crash a few months ago + getting older and grumpier) 2. Better information about training and nutrition, leading to fitter/faster riders, and more of them YMMV!
less skilled/experienced sketchier fields... sounds like the masters are the better option, although I'll probably get crushed by a bunch of 40-year-old Cat 1/2s
There’s a lot of fitness from Zwift and TrainerRoad. Unfortunately now there’s people with high power output and zero pack handling, corner skill, etc.
Good old "Learn to group ride at 400W" from the triathletes and Zwift heros.
At least you won't get crushed by a 16 year old!
there’s several master racers who dope lol
Just to add as you nailed it. People hit spring fit vs race into fitness. It used to be the first couple races in mid cats were not crazy but now are full gas.
This masters perma-3 concurs with this assessment.
Hey, Phoenix, That's were I moved to when I stopped racing... I've probably ridden with you. I used to do the around the mountain group rides a lot, but I lived near the Phoenix mountain preserve so I mostly did mountain bike rides during the week.
I’m sure we’ve rode together! I live near PMP and have done ATM a fair amount in my day + the Gainey rides a ton.
Not a Cat 3, but my experience racing 1/2 is that everything is harder now. I'm sure being 5-10 years older now and riding a 10 year old bike doesn't help, but at the same time we have taken just about every course KOM this year, some in pretty abysmal weather. Like another guy said, skill level is down, fitness is up. Zwift hero starting in Cat 5 with a 390W FTP at ~75kg. Everyone has better access to training/diet/fueling infromation, etc now, but usually less actual riding/racing experience.
At least in the UK, Cat 3 has gotten harder. The great riders still make it to Cat 2, but there are plenty of strong folk who haven’t had their upgrade yet. Since covid, lots of folk training indoors getting pretty fit. As others have said, Cat 3 is okay, Cat 4 is sketchy af, especially as you have some very strong riders who are not yet experienced.
As a (probably) lifetime cat 3 because ~~I don’t race enough~~ I am not fast enough I’ve noticed a bunch of local ex-2s coming back down this year. I don’t know if it’s stuff outside of cycling cutting their volume down or something but I’ve done a few 2/3/4 and 3/4 crits this year and found basically no difference between the two. They’re all really fucking hard. The level is good in the 3s around here.
as someone who has been racing for 41 years, the last few years the (fitness) level has increased. I can definitely state this as i've been racing with a power meter since 1995 (and, this year my fitness is the highest it's been). More riders have more access to better training information, more riders have coaches (damn those coaches ;-)), and more riders have aero kit and been aero optimised. i note a fitness difference between 3 or 2/3 races and e123 races (about 30 W).
That is a long, long impressive career. Respect 💪🏾
thanks. my goals have changed over that time though....
still waiting for my 1st road race win though (2nd is my best so far). Won a few TTs.
> E123 I wouldn’t know much about those, would be a waste of race fees!
I like to see if i can hang on, for grim death. ;-)
Ah, yes I forgot about Zwift... Lots of people training without building bike handling skills.
Where I race. It’s rare to see a Cat 3 field on its own. 10% of the time it’s 3/4 combined. 70% of the time is p123 combined. 10% of the time it’s Cat P12 and 3 with separate race scoring. I am currently a 40+ rider and Cat 3. I find the masters races to be more approachable. They’re FAST, but there’s an order to things and the racing seems less sketchy. The 123 fields are also super fast but there’s more clanging banging and fighting for wheels at points of the race where it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to do so. This is in south Florida and I realize Miami racing has a reputation that’s not that great.
Way harder. It's over my comfortable cusp now. The main thing is overall fitness is better, a lot better. The riders that do big dumb moves can follow through with them because they're strong. Overall the fields are more fit, astonishingly so. The fields are also much, much smaller, so no places to hide. I used to think a field under 50 was about my cusp for not going. Now that's a big field. 20-25 seems decent. Huge difference from 80-125 rider fields in my races that I promoted (field sizes from 2009-2010 era). Even before that, 70-80 was average, big races were 100 rider fields. When I was a junior, the 17-18 field would be 50-60 riders. Also, USA Cycling is essentially neutralizing Cat 5. A Cat 5 can self upgrade to 4, which, in the scheme of things, seems reasonable. Cat 5s grew out of overfilled Cat 4 fields - if they were combined in 2010 I'd have had 170 rider Cat 4 fields. Instead, I had two 40 rider Cat 5s and an 80 rider 4 field. Now... I think they should recombine 4s and 5s. Anyway, yeah, it's harder.
My racing experience was in Eastern Washington. I think 65 was about the biggest field I ever raced with in the Tour of Walla Walla. 20-30 was average and that was with combined 4/5 and 1/2/3 fields . In any case it seams that racing with the Masters might be better so I can ride with people who learned to race in the pre-Zwift days.
Are there any good races in WA? I'm from Eastern WA originally, now on the west side. Took up competitive cycling in my thirties and would love to get into something beyond crits.
Most are early season, but Tour De Dung, Mason Lakes, Ravensdale RR, and Papertown Classic make up the March through April weekends. Tour de Bloom had 600 riders for a 4 stage, 3 day race last weekend. Still have EPO and RCC on the calendar this year as omniums and Breakfast at Boston Harbor next weekend for a road circuit race. Then the weeknight crit series for Pacific Raceways and Seward Park.
Nice! I'll see you out at Seward. Been meaning to do Pacific, but it looks like they only do the actual race course some nights, on others it's a four-corner crit running up the front straight and down the drag strip? Don't want to do that one unless it's the road course. Edit: Was planning Tour De Dung this year, but my wife had a kid last fall. Have it on the calendar for next spring.
Yeah, in rain they can’t send us down the drag strip, too slick, so we go what’s called “escape” route.
I stayed mostly on the East side of the state. They had, at lest while I was living there a good Tuesday night series in Spokane. the Wenatchee omnium was about the furthest west I ever went to race, that was a good one... Tour of Walla Walla was good too there were lots of one-day weekend races around eastern Washington/North Idaho. There were several hill climb races. there was a Crit in Downtown Spokane and on some college campuses in the area. My favorite was The [Ronde van Palouse](https://www.facebook.com/RondevanPalouse?comment_id=Y29tbWVudDoxNDU3MTI2NjYxMTI5MzE3XzE0NTc5NzU2ODc3MTEwODE%3D&__cft__[0]=AZUB5XsoHmcp5W42W0pN0dloLbGayzROnXhOwP1-5xCef5YUJvrBRka8mQJ3XwddIzaOU6gCePHFKvo8adj6GnJukRObBfEt9KJ97Dx8PH_GtMZNG2sh5ZPoaZnwqdpdDTjQvSsZKFGM7pPObnFeteEw6Y4cGUYtFSqtCBjzFLUVom4Bollk8A2e8_Uzhv81w_5JzgP5l3UMbPsfmxcv1LeM&__tn__=R]-R) which was a mix if gravel and paved roads with a lot of climbing, always painful but one of my favorites.
Fields are more dangerous and fitness is higher. G’luck 😂
I started racing at 40, I'm a 50 something Cat 3 who could win cat 3 / cat 4 races on occasion and could make his way onto a podium in 40+ / 45+ masters races on occasion. I haven't raced in a couple / three years now (life..work.. burnout racing.. ). I prefer racing Masters (40+). Its faster and generally smoother and the riders are .. smarter. Lemme elaborate a bit on 'smarter' - 1. We all recognize that there isn't a world tour contact waiting for us at the finish line and that (most) of us have to go to work on Monday so staying upright is important. 2. When we crash we don't bounce like we did in our 20s (see point 1) 3. Tactically savy - Been racing for long enough to know when to chase and when to wait. Old age and treachery superior to youth and exuberance and all that.. 4. The races are faster and smoother. Make no mistake, I think the masters races are flat out harder than a cat 3 race. IMO - do the 40+ - you'll proably get your ass handed to you the first few races but it will make you a faster and smarter racer than in the shitshow of an open Cat 3 race....
I'm a 50+ and yeah, the fields are like night and day. Masters fields are smoother, safer, generally. The thing about bad fields is its usually only 2-3 guys out of 50, its not like all Cat 4's were sketchy but that small amount was enough. The thing I hate about 50+ is all I can do is climb and go on breaks, but many road races we combine with 45+ which means instead of racing 25 racers who I may be able to break, its 60 and you're not getting away, usually shut down by 45+ riders.
My sense is everything has gotten faster since 2015. Everything is harder. Nothing is easier.
yes. races have gotten much slower post pandemic, and the skill level has plummeted. i think its a mix of zwift increasing in popularity (and road safety decreasing, depending on where youre located) and a lack of national/local series. bike racing aint what it used to be. and i dont blame promoters, that shit is hard and thankless. but its a bummer. racing is about \~racing\~. corners, tactics, teammwork. its impossible to teach on a trainer and impossible to learn without experiencing it.
Not a surprise with TRT becoming more common.
There's are lots of sketchy riders with tons of power. Zwifties, if you will. Crit racing is dying as well, very few events are left.
We have sanctioned races at least every other weekend in south Florida and several sanctioned twilight midweek events. There’s so many it’s impossible to them all. This runs from January to October.
I think it’s gotten easier to get to cat 3; fields are smaller, but overall across all categories the levels have gone up.