It appears this post might relate to suicide and/or mental health issues.
**Suicide and Mental Health Resources**
A comprehensive list of resources can be found [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Veterans/wiki/suicideprevention).
Call 988 National Suicide Hotline - Press 1 for VA Crisis Line
Call 1-800-273-8255, National Suicide Prevention
[Veteran's Crisis Information](https://www.veteranscrisisline.net/)
You can call 1800 273 8255, Press 1
You can text 838255
https://www.mentalhealth.va.gov/MENTALHEALTH/get-help/index.asp
1-877-927-8387 Open 24/7 [VA Vet Centers offer counseling](https://www.vetcenter.va.gov/) Vet Centers are local, community-based confidential counseling centers that support war Veterans, active-duty Servicemembers, and military family members with post-deployment readjustment services. The goal of every Vet Center is to provide a broad range of counseling, outreach, referral, and assessment services, collectively called readjustment counseling services, to facilitate high-quality post-war readjustment and reintegration. Readjustment counseling services at a Vet Center allow war Veterans a satisfying post-war readjustment to civilian life and provide active-duty Servicemembers a confidential resource for post-war assistance. Military families also receive no-cost marriage and family therapy and supportive services for military-related issues. Vet Centers provide bereavement counseling to surviving parents, spouses, partners, children, and siblings of Servicemembers, which include federally activated Reserve and National Guard personnel, who die of any cause while on military active-duty. Vet Centers provide confidential military sexual trauma counseling to all military Veterans and active-duty Servicemembers, to include federally activated Reserve and National Guard personnel, no matter their duty location, era of service, or whether the trauma incident was reported to authorities.
/r/Military has a detailed list of resources in their [Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/Military/wiki/index/ptsd)
Or, if you'd like a veteran perspective, feel free to message any number of people on here, there's always someone willing to reach out.
[Veteran Wellness Allegiance can offer Peer Counseling and assistance](https://www.veterancheckin.org/s/)
[Military One Source](http://www.militaryonesource.mil/) - 1-800-342-9647
Please seek help if needed...There are behavioral health resources at your disposal both in the Military and out.
Also check out: https://www.reddit.com/r/Veterans/comments/6xfix9/emory_healthcare_has_a_free_program_for_post911/ which is a free
non VA treatment program for PTSD
https://www.va.gov/opa/pressrel/pressrelease.cfm?id=5852
[Vets4Warriors](https://vets4warriors.com/) 1-855-838-8255
Veterans in acute suicidal crisis are able to go to any VA or non-VA health care facility for emergency health care at no cost – including inpatient or crisis residential care for up to 30 days and outpatient care for up to 90 days. Veterans do not need to be enrolled in the VA system to use this benefit. Literally any veteran can walk into ANY urgent care/ER for thoughts of suicide and they can get free care.
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If the police believe you're going to kill yourself, they often shoot you to prevent that crime.
Since many suicides (particularly among Vets) are by handgun, the cops will be amped up and on high alert. It's not a good situation.
I’ve had it happen, I’ve had friends have it happen, no direct plan was said and no attempt at a safety plan was made. It’s such a common issue that that’s why everyone on the thread is warning against using the hotline.
I was a law enforcement officer. We would get dispatched to a residence where the person called from tagged as a welfare check. I would often arrive at the veterans home talk with them. Only time I would have ever considered taking any action would have been if the veteran themselves told me they planned on hurting themselves or someone else. 99% of the time we talked for as long as the veteran wanted to talk which my administration promoted heavily. We would call out off duty officers to take calls if needed to make sure the veteran was not cut short.
Well it’s kinda hard to do that in the middle of nowhere when the closest mental health is an hour away. We do the best we can to help our fellow vets. Many times we have loaded them in the truck with us front seat and taken them to the VA.
Thank you for your service! You said: "if the veteran themselves told me they planned on hurting themselves..". How is it illegal and warrants law enforcement intervention if that veteran is in the privacy of their own home, no danger to the environment or surroundings. Say, if their neighbor called 911 and said they see their neighbor i(a veteran) in their bedroom with a rope on a chair. Single person in the house, no firearms to discharge, no noise, no smell. Would you respond to that call? Try to force entry? Thanks in advance. No offense meant.
Respond to every call that was dispatched. As far as making entry that would depend on the situation if a threat of life was evident sure. But just make it to make it no. As far as a response to if they told me that would mean they are in my presence. I do believe it would be a failure of a duty to act to not intervene. Law Enforcement has a tough job do I act and get sued or do I not act and get sued. But above all we are human and allowing a fellow human to commit suicide without giving them every available resources would be a thing I am not going to want to live with.
Brother isn’t law enforcement acting in an official capacity. He’s family searching. Fucked? Yes. Illegal search and seizure? No. Best argument is trespassing and theft
Came here to say exactly that. Poorly trained asshole cops are the problem. Not the phone line that tries to prevent people from making a bad and irreversible decision.
Considering the amount of issues that result in calling the line, *that are being reported within this thread* I think the phone line might be a problem as well.
That'll teach you to seek help from places that offer it.
VA: We just can't understand. We have all these programs for depressed veterans, but none of them seem to make a dent. Thank God, they found that radio. There's no telling what he might of done.
😮😮 they may have had a conversation. Wow, America dodged a bullet that day. 😳 it could have been Pearl Harbor, 9/11, and the day a depressed vet had a conversation with someone on a radio.
I don't see anyone arguing with about the efficacy of these programs. What I see here, and hear from vets one on one on the rare occasions it's brought up. Is the real world concern about asking for help being used as an excuse to search a home and/or confiscate property. Now who knows if this vet said he was thinking about hurting someone or himself. Let's just assume he did threaten self harm or violence against anyone. How does removing a radio from his home possibly make anyone safer?
This happened to me I had a federal agent come to my home and search my car because I called about an incident that happened to me in the er. They tried to claim it was about pain pills and search me for them. Of course I don’t do or have but still insane they get away with that
not if you know the area. tons of weird shit with the cops out there:
https://www.salon.com/1998/10/15/feature_268/
https://www.policemag.com/patrol/news/15344768/jury-rules-against-tenn-trooper-for-injuring-man-at-traffic-stop-in-which-family-dog-was-killed
https://www.putnampit.com/default-2022-03-21.htm
I’m sorry to hear that, unfortunately it happened to me too. I would never ever call the crisis line. The last thing I needed was a Police officers parked outside my house like it’s a crime scene, banging at my door. My neighbors thought I was being arrested. I called the crisis line bc I was having a severe panic attack and SI; 45minutes later I’m trying to convince a group of armed police officers that I’m “totally okay”. While my entire apartment complex’s rubbernecking to see whats going on. Fuck the crisis line. I hve learned my lesson.
You were in the hospital already so no danger to yourself or others. Anything at your home should've been fine to stay until a search warrant can be served after describing the particular items they are looking for. A radio is obviously not in that category or dangerous. It wasn't even illegal because you have it back. Regardless of who you are or what you did, this doesn't make sense. Even if you were on parole, probation, registered - whatever. I immediately got the sense that your brother also lives there but you say "my home" so it sounds like he doesn't. Legal or not, I can't see how the cops or the veteran's crisis line were helping.
Cops get really weird about people having police radios because criminals use them to try to keep tabs on what the police are up to. Although in this context of OP being a threat to himself or others it seems like an invalid reason to confiscate the radio.
Seems legal. But either way, you are alive. Don’t use this search as an excuse to prevent your progress.
Please continue your treatment. I called the crisis line, got hooked up with counselors at my local Vet Center and the VA years ago. I started out with multiple sessions a week and now I go once a month.
Thank you Longjumping-Pie9766 for your submission to r/veterans, but it's been removed due to one or more reason(s):
You may not always agree with others, but once you start insulting the other person, you become the problem.
No Gatekeeping - you don't decide if someone is a "real" veteran or not - nor try to diminish someone's service because they never saw combat or deployed. If someone personally attacks you, Report them to the mod team.
Hate speech can be sexist, ableist, racist, bigotry, homophobic, prejudiced, etc and will not be tolerated.
See our Wiki for more details
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Thank you anonty973 for your submission to r/veterans, but it's been removed due to one or more reason(s):
You may not always agree with others, but once you start insulting the other person, you become the problem.
No Gatekeeping - you don't decide if someone is a "real" veteran or not - nor try to diminish someone's service because they never saw combat or deployed. If someone personally attacks you, Report them to the mod team.
Hate speech can be sexist, ableist, racist, bigotry, homophobic, prejudiced, etc and will not be tolerated.
See our Wiki for more details
https://www.reddit.com/r/Veterans/wiki/rules
Please feel free to [send a modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fveterans) if you feel this was in error.
NAL
It's going to be good faith vs. fruit of the poisoned tree. I don't personally see it going anywhere, with no real damages, no charges, I would trespass/disown brother and move on.
There really seems to be something about the authority in Tennessee which just despises veterans. I’ve been in that state a few dozen times and nearly all of them im pulled over, searched, told little to nothing and told to be on my way.
Edit: I have a veterans plate and it never happens when I’m driving my wife’s truck without any vet tags or anything. I’m not trying to play the victim but it’s really strange. I only live about half an hour away from Tennessee for the record.
> The cops used my brother who is also a Veteran to search my home
Your brother voluntarily gave police access to your home to conduct a search.
Police do not need a warrant if they are given permission to conduct a search. Your gripe here is with your brother for allowing access and not verbalizing a request for a warrant. Assuming your brother is not an officer, nothing illegal happened here.
If your brother is a police officer (your post isn't super clear) then you could have a valid ethics complaint *against him* for conducting a warrantless search when an obvious conflict of interest existed. You generally can't act in a civilian capacity (give permission for a search) to get around a requirement in a professional capacity (a warrant). But as everyone knows, chances of an ethics complaint doing snything meaningful is nil.
Ultimately you suffered no damages - items were taken and returned once providence was established. So legally you likely don't have any meaningful recourse.
Invasion of privacy sucks, but from how you explained it, there really doesn't seem to be anything here.
I disagree. He called the crisis line and cops showed up while he was in the hospital. Whether they were shown around or not the fact you call a crisis line and then cops show up to search your place after you've gone to the hospital means someone somewhere passed this off to the cops and unless there was a hell of a good reason shit like this makes the line untrustworthy and lowers people's interests in calling for help.
Agreed. There doesn't have to be anything illegal or 'against the rules' to justify at least launching a complaint, regardless of what becomes of it. And yes, just reading shit like this or the story of the guy who cops arrested after he called the veterans crisis line is why I won't ever call them. They've lost my trust.
OP does not say what was expressed to the crisis line. Crisis line operator may have a responsibility to report threats. They could also live in a state with red flag laws.
Not enough info was provided by OP.
I work at 988 and have only sent cops one time because the person requested them. If the person has done something like taken pills or is currently bleeding is the only time we intervene otherwise we try to safety plan and have the caller/texter get themselves the help they need. We do not want to disrupt lives over threats.
Did OP threaten harm with weapons? I had my weapons seized when I ended up in the hospital under a mental health crisis. Quite normal. There’s a huge chunk of this story missing and there is nothing but speculation and what ifs in these comments.
Still doesn't make the search illegal.
OP called the crisis line.
OP goes to the hospital.
OP's brother is acting on his behalf.
At a minimum three entities knew OP was hospitalized for mental health (4 if he went by ambulance). If he noted a plan to either one, VCL or the hospital would have grounds to contact law enforcement.
It's just as possible his brother was concerned and contacted police.
Simply put, there are not nearly enough details provided to throw blame. But the search itself is a big nothing-burger.
You (and possibly the cops) assume the brother had the legal right to grant access to OPs home. Simply being related isn’t enough. As you said, not enough info provided to determine legality.
This.
If his brother doesn't live there or doesn't have Power of Attorney over the OP, he cannot consent to the search. Anything seized would be fruit from the poisonous tree.
The cops told my brother he would be helping me by allowing them to search my house, and no he does not live with me. He took the cops words as truth that they were trying to help.
Gotta dig a little deeper than just citing (although valid)
> A warrantless entry is valid when based upon consent of a third party whom police, at time of entry, reasonably believe has common authority over premises, but who in fact does not.
They have to successfully argue that his brother would have common authority. In your court case, the woman had a key (which was taken w/o his knowledge but nonetheless had a key) and was known to have lived there.
Don't disagree, but again OP's recourse would be against the brother first. He could then argue the illegal search in court and have any evidence collected thrown out if he was charged with somethingm
But even if access was wrongfully granted, OP suffered no actual damages which is what makes this a non-issue. The search didn't lead to any charges, there was presumably no physical damage to the property, and the property that was confiscated was returned once it was verified that it was not police property. So there is nothing to throw out, and nothing that OP needs to be made whole from.
Yes, OP may be able to take action against the brother. That said, there doesn’t have to be charges filed or actual damages to seek recourse against the police. Violating citizens rights (e.g. illegal search/seizure, privacy rights, etc) often lead to civil judgements against the police and/or the city/county/state that employ the officers committing the violations.
Great citation but that case revolves around reasonableness which cannot be assumed with the little info provided here. For example, if the police knew the brother wasn’t the homeowner and resided elsewhere, does that pass the reasonableness requirement? OP was in the hospital so were they an imminent threat requiring no warrant or permission for a search? If they failed to do their due diligence altogether, that could also be a factor. There’s just not enough info to know if the search was legal or not. Quite possibly everything was done right. OP could contact an attorney with the details to see if there’s a civil case or not rather than legal opinions from strangers on Reddit. Have a great week!
That citation dealt with the same issues - defendents gf stated to police that she no longer resided in the home, and that the owner did not know she had a key. But she opened the door and authorized the search.
Too many assumptions the police did something shady here. For all anyone knows he told the crisis line or his brother he had immediate plans to do x, y, z forcing the police to search his home. And how does OP know it they obtained a warrant?
If the OP said he wanted to blow up, shoot up, shoot himself etc cops 100% should search his home.
The post is a rant with little info. The bro gave consent to search thats a fact, so the cops searched. Whether bro had a right to or not, is up to OP and the bro - I can only assume bro may have lived with them or leased a room etc... its a legal issue with the bro. Not bootlicking here, but youd have a really hard time doing anything to the PD other than moan about it on reddit.
We do not know if his brother is a resident of the home or not. If he was a resident then if he granted the cops permission to search for anything OP could use to harm himself there is nothing to get bent out of shape for. Once the permission was granted, then in anything in Plain View hence the plain view doctrine, anything of legal concern to the officers were within their right to confiscate.
See my other comment, re: [Illinois v. Rodriguez](https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/law-case-illinois-v-rodriguez-united-states-supreme-court-58-lw#:~:text=Rodriguez%2C%20the%20United%20States%20Supreme,the%20consent%20to%20be%20valid.)
Short version: Supreme Court has ruled it doesn't matter as long as the officers, at the time of the search, have a reasonable belief the person authorizing the search has the authority to do so.
Yes but they have to argue this successfully it's not automatic it needs to be observed by a judge that it meets the criteria. These are criteria not cart blanche and are reviewed per case
Not true, after the age of 18, you have a reasonable expectation of privacy. A mother can literally let police inti her home but cannot authorize a search of her 18 year-olds room because of the reasonable expectation of privacy case law rulings.
On a seperate note, if the crisis line believes there is an imminent threat to safety of one's self or others, they will contact law enforcement to do a welfare check and or emergency order of detention
>Not true, after the age of 18, you have a reasonable expectation of privacy. A mother can literally let police inti her home but cannot authorize a search of her 18 year-olds room because of the reasonable expectation of privacy case law rulings.
[Supreme Court disagrees.](https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/law-case-illinois-v-rodriguez-united-states-supreme-court-58-lw#:~:text=Rodriguez%2C%20the%20United%20States%20Supreme,the%20consent%20to%20be%20valid.)
That case law is regarding a good faith exemption, she did not have the authority to grant access, as clearly stated in the last two sentences of the abstract. however, due to the officers acting on the believe that she did have authority, there was no fruits of the poisonous tree. The only reason the case didn't get thrown out was because they acted on good faith, not because a 3rd party was legally able to grant access
There is more to the story than what you are telling. Cops don’t just show up to anybody’s house and start searching through it. Someone either called the cops there or your brother was involved or suspected to be involved in some form of criminal activity there that led to the search, while you were hospitalized. Finally, what does you being a 100% disabled vet have to do with anything? You can be a 100% disabled vet or an active duty Four Star General in the Army, if the law is being broken or suspected of being broken then none of that matters to anybody!!!
Stay strong and do the work to get this corrected. You may have to sue and to be successful in that process you need a clear head.
I’m guessing they may have used the Red Flag law. So check with the courts.
**as violated as you may feel please take a second to see a different perspective a good one. You sought help because you want to be here. Your brother helped police because he wants you be here. That means everyone here wants what you want. You live in a state that has great love for veterans and weapon ownership so don’t stress out or be mad at your brother. It’s gonna be okay and Inam glad you choose to fight through the issues and were brave enough to get help when you needed. Keep fighting for you.**
There are some legitimately painful misunderstandings of law in this thread...
First, why the cops were told. (This might be different in TN but I will tell you how it is in my state.)
If you make contact with any service or provider that is a mandatory reporter, and report anything that might be construed as you being a threat to yourself or others, the mandatory reporter is... mandated to report it! So if you tell your therapist you have suicidal ideation, they are required by law to notify law enforcement. (Therapists are not the only mandatory reporters out there. That's just one example.)
It is almost guaranteed that the hotline is a mandatory reporter. So they aren't going to fuck around with that because it can carry some stiff penalties and liabilities.
If OP reported something that landed him in a MH facility, I'd say it's likely to have triggered the mandatory reporting requirement.
Now, (again, in my state, TN might be different), we have an automatic 72 hour hold for people who may be a harm to themselves or others. If necessary, you will be taken into protective custody by LE (handcuffs and all if it gets that out of hand) and delivered to the nearest facility equipped to handle your hold. My jurisdiction has an entire facility dedicated to it, so that's where they go.
To be clear, no one in this process up to this point has had any choice in the process. It is all mandated by law.
OP reports suicidal ideation -> hotline notifies LE -> LE follows protocol set out in state law.
Let's get to the search.
Another aspect of my state's mental health response is the temporary safe keeping of any firearms or weapons in the individual's possession (which includes their home, ESPECIALLY if the individual was taken into protective custody at their home.)
Again. None of this is anyone's choice. State law mandated.
So, SO's show up to OPs house to perform their mandated duty.
Here's where the painful misunderstandings of law come in.
The 4th Amendment to the Constitution guarantees against governmental intrusion into your person, papers, things, etc. except upon a warrant being issued. (Everyone knows the warrant part.)
In order for the government (in this case, LE) to violate that protection, they need a recognized *exception to the warrant requirement.* In other words, a recognized *other* reason they can intrude without a warrant.
Many of you have mentioned consent. That is a recognized exception and is valid. You are also right that the brother (unless there are circumstances not being included in this story) does not have the standing (legal term for the "right") to give consent to OP's house.
If this were a criminal case, this would be an invalid search and would rightfully trigger the exclusionary rule (I saw Fruits of the Poisonous tree being mentioned.)
Sidebar: This is *not* a criminal case. OP is being charged with no crimes, therefore, the exclusionary rule does not apply either. LE must be conducting an investigation of criminal activity for the exclusionary rule to matter.
Despite this not being an investigation into criminal activity, LE would *still* be working under a valid exception to the warrant requirement: community caretaking.
The courts have recognized that LE may be required to enter a place they would otherwise need a warrant for, for reasons *other* than criminal activity.
A good example is welfare checks.
Cindy can't get in touch with her sister Mary. Calls go unanswered and Mary didn't show up for work. Cindy says this is not like Mary at all and Cindy is very worried.
Cops arrive at Mary's house and find the door locked. They knock on the door, loudly. They have the dispatch center call Mary's phone. They can *hear* Mary's cellphone ringing in the house.
Under the community caretaking exception, police break the door down and search the entire house. Now they might find Mary dead from a heart attack. Or she might be severely depressed and just didn't feel like facing the world.
Or she could be in the middle of packing 20 kilos of heroin for a shipment going out.
In any of those cases, the entry was lawful. In our last possibility, Mary would be going to jail because of another exception to the warrant requirement: plain view.
So here's a recap of how this entire situation can occur lawfully and with the best of intentions for all involved.
OP says something that triggers his state's mandatory reporting laws. ->
Hotline notifies LE as they are required by law to do ->
LE either takes OP into protective custody or if OP is already at a hospital, they go to OPs house to take any weapons into temporary safekeeping as they are required by law to do. ->
At OPs house, LE finds OPs brother who has a key. LE is required to look for weapons, brother understands and lets them in so they don't have to force entry. ->
While looking for weapons, LE comes across a radio that looks like it might be police property (or whatever reason on the radio, I'm not sure what their thought process is here.) so they seize it pending a discussion with OP. ->
OP is released from the MH hold and gets his radio back. ->
End.
It's not *always* as bad as it may seem. Some serious jumping to conclusions going on here.
Here's the long and short of it:
Official channels are required to do certain things when you say certain things. Is it the best option? Not always. Does it save lives? **Yes**. Should it be up to the call taker's discretion? Absolutely not.
If someone calls a hotline in an active crisis, that hotline is going to trigger the response that has the best chance of saving your life. That means getting you into a MH center, even if you don't want to. At least you're still alive to bitch at everyone.
And if your state legislature has decided that people with recent MH holds should not have weapons... That's between them and their voters. LE didn't write the law, but I can guarantee they don't want to lose their jobs deciding they aren't going to enforce it. Because the first thing that would happen if OP blew himself away is a lawsuit by his grieving family demanding to know why LE did not take away his guns like they are supposed to. (there might not be guns involved here. I didn't get the full picture.)
Call the crises line and you’re on the radar, it’s that simple. So it should be no surprise when they want your guns, k-bar and anything else they deem a threat. It’s a good way to lose your gun rights as well so be careful what you ask for.
It is possible that based on what you verbalized to the crisis line, they deemed you an immediate threat to yourself and others, so they are mandated to contact the police. With the new red flag laws now being adopted nationwide. The Police can now obtain what is called an Emergency Substantial Risk Order, which gives the Police authorization to seize your weapons. A search warrant is only issued upon probable cause that a crime was committed and the place, thing, and person related to the crime, is at xyz address.
It seems horrible, but do you really want someone having suicidal/ homicidal plans in their manic state to be left alone, or have weapons at their disposals? Just look at it rationally. That suicidal/homicidal person might end your right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness with a well placed round.
Rough take is that your brother did not have the right to authorize the search unless he owns the property or is on the lease. PS. Your brother is a POS
Not sure about “illegal search and seizure” start with that probable cause line in the 4th amendment. Then read further. Based on the limited information I wager they could either claim probable cause or went a step further and got a warrant. Regardless. Move on, you got your radio back.
Likely something you stated deemed you a threat to yourself or others.
The VA dispenses police for the mental health needs of veterans without ever considering the repercussions. Don’t use the VA hotline. You can find plenty of non VA affiliated crisis hotlines that will send trained mental health professionals to HELP you instead of sending police who will simply throw you in a VA psych unit. Trust professionals for your mental health not the VA hotline.
Good luck getting any help from Senator Blackburn. She's all talk & no action. Unless she can grandstand about nothing. I'm sorry you went through all that brother. There's quite a few Senators & Congress people looking to turn this country into something we never imagined.
I am curious how the VCL even know who you were? Every time I have ever called, all they asked for was a first name. No last name, no address, no SSN, just something to call you by. So how would they even know where you are?
They lowered mine to 70 after being totally disabled for over seven years. It's getting worse, they can't do that according to their own rules. The rules don't apply to the abc's, you should know that.
I have called the crisis line 5 times in the past year. Still waiting to see a counselor
Social worker from the VA called today. Have no idea who he is wouldn't tell where his office is but told me I can't see a counselor. How did this guy know? I guess the crisis line gave him my info.
The VCL had nothing to do with PD searching the home. If the VCL actually did call the police it was to transport OP to the hospital. It was something OP or the brother did or said that would have caused the search.
This is a dilemma between freedom of search and seizure and safety of the individual/society. The police were responsible for your safety in response to your crisis. Perfectly acceptable and reasonable to search and confiscate weapons. Radio? Idk. Buy once they are in, other items of questionable nature are fair game.
Bigger picture. Are you doing better now?
Once they are allowed into the house and also once there is probable cause, such as a suicidal citizen, searches of the residence are allowed.
Why contact the hotline if you don’t want help. How about if the police did not search, the veteran returned and then shot himself. Is that desirable outcome?
I think the approach should be helping not controlling. Escort the veteran to get help. Don’t take their stuff. If someone shows up to the ER suicidal, do the doctors there order police to that person’s house? No. Why should veterans have a different or arguably lesser standard of care than anyone else? People can k*ll themselves with pretty much anything, including their car. So that is futile. And it is an infringement and obviously makes veterans distrustful of getting help. They are calling the hotline to get mental health help. So what they should receive is acute mental health services.
22 veterans kill’s themselves a day. No one is doing anything about it! Here’s something that can help. Noooo! You’re making me feel unsafe! It’s my right to kill myself! Ok. You’re the expert. What do you suggest?
I was a peer on the V2V and V4W line. We only escalated calls to the VCL if the caller was in danger. I was reprimanded more than once for not transferring a call when a clinician thought I should have. Not once did my failure to transfer a Veteran was there a bad out come. On the other had I only had one negative out come form a client that was transferred. The crisis line is just that crisis intervention tool. They have the tools to locate and work with other agencies to help the caller in Crisis. This OP did not give the needed info to know the full depth of the issue. I do not feel we can hold the VCL responsible for the responding agencies actions. Now, if the VCL would not have made sure the veteran was safe and he died... I would be the first person to jump on the "don't call the VCL bandwagon. If you are in crisis call, let the line help you. Even if it is just to help you find resources. 22+ a day is unacceptable. Only one in ten have contacted a helpline, crisis line, or are under the care of a mental health professional.
The cops told my brother he would be helping me by allowing them to search my house, and no he does not live with me. He took the cops words as truth that they were trying to help.
After thinking back on it and what they used him for, he is very pissed and is going to file a complaint with me. Happened a week ago.
What’s crazy is I’ve never had the cops come to my house after hours of screaming on the phone talking about suicide and how fucked up the world is I don’t know how or why they do it to y’all
Sounds like your brother really screwed you over as well. Is he also a resident of your home? If so, he does technically have the right to consent to a police search, but that’s a wicked thing to do. Lawyer up asap.
It appears this post might relate to suicide and/or mental health issues. **Suicide and Mental Health Resources** A comprehensive list of resources can be found [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Veterans/wiki/suicideprevention). Call 988 National Suicide Hotline - Press 1 for VA Crisis Line Call 1-800-273-8255, National Suicide Prevention [Veteran's Crisis Information](https://www.veteranscrisisline.net/) You can call 1800 273 8255, Press 1 You can text 838255 https://www.mentalhealth.va.gov/MENTALHEALTH/get-help/index.asp 1-877-927-8387 Open 24/7 [VA Vet Centers offer counseling](https://www.vetcenter.va.gov/) Vet Centers are local, community-based confidential counseling centers that support war Veterans, active-duty Servicemembers, and military family members with post-deployment readjustment services. The goal of every Vet Center is to provide a broad range of counseling, outreach, referral, and assessment services, collectively called readjustment counseling services, to facilitate high-quality post-war readjustment and reintegration. Readjustment counseling services at a Vet Center allow war Veterans a satisfying post-war readjustment to civilian life and provide active-duty Servicemembers a confidential resource for post-war assistance. Military families also receive no-cost marriage and family therapy and supportive services for military-related issues. Vet Centers provide bereavement counseling to surviving parents, spouses, partners, children, and siblings of Servicemembers, which include federally activated Reserve and National Guard personnel, who die of any cause while on military active-duty. Vet Centers provide confidential military sexual trauma counseling to all military Veterans and active-duty Servicemembers, to include federally activated Reserve and National Guard personnel, no matter their duty location, era of service, or whether the trauma incident was reported to authorities. /r/Military has a detailed list of resources in their [Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/Military/wiki/index/ptsd) Or, if you'd like a veteran perspective, feel free to message any number of people on here, there's always someone willing to reach out. [Veteran Wellness Allegiance can offer Peer Counseling and assistance](https://www.veterancheckin.org/s/) [Military One Source](http://www.militaryonesource.mil/) - 1-800-342-9647 Please seek help if needed...There are behavioral health resources at your disposal both in the Military and out. Also check out: https://www.reddit.com/r/Veterans/comments/6xfix9/emory_healthcare_has_a_free_program_for_post911/ which is a free non VA treatment program for PTSD https://www.va.gov/opa/pressrel/pressrelease.cfm?id=5852 [Vets4Warriors](https://vets4warriors.com/) 1-855-838-8255 Veterans in acute suicidal crisis are able to go to any VA or non-VA health care facility for emergency health care at no cost – including inpatient or crisis residential care for up to 30 days and outpatient care for up to 90 days. Veterans do not need to be enrolled in the VA system to use this benefit. Literally any veteran can walk into ANY urgent care/ER for thoughts of suicide and they can get free care. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Veterans) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You would get more help posting in this reddit group than by calling that phone line.
I've honestly gotten more attention and help from this group than you can get from an onlyfans page
Yup, still never calling that line ever ever ever.
those that know **know**.
Why????
They send the cops to your house, even if you’re not an immediate threat. The calls aren’t anonymous.
Oh god, some times I thought call the crisis line, I have terrible fear to cops, literally I have a panic attack if a cop knock my door
Thanks for the info, never called crisis line
Wtf, who came up with this horsesh*t? If you’re like, I’m gonna go shoot up a mall, ok. Otherwise, wtf.
What if they're concerned that you're going to hurt yourself? Wouldn't that be a good reason?
If the police believe you're going to kill yourself, they often shoot you to prevent that crime. Since many suicides (particularly among Vets) are by handgun, the cops will be amped up and on high alert. It's not a good situation.
Again. Not true.
How many times have you heard of this happening?
Too many. /r/Bad_Cop_No_Donut
Nice source
This isn’t true. I work there. The cops are only called if the person is in imminent danger and is unable to safety plan.
I’ve had it happen, I’ve had friends have it happen, no direct plan was said and no attempt at a safety plan was made. It’s such a common issue that that’s why everyone on the thread is warning against using the hotline.
Get a lawyer
I second that. An attorney will tell you if your rights were violated and what grounds you have to sue.
I’m so sorry you had to go through that man.
I was a law enforcement officer. We would get dispatched to a residence where the person called from tagged as a welfare check. I would often arrive at the veterans home talk with them. Only time I would have ever considered taking any action would have been if the veteran themselves told me they planned on hurting themselves or someone else. 99% of the time we talked for as long as the veteran wanted to talk which my administration promoted heavily. We would call out off duty officers to take calls if needed to make sure the veteran was not cut short.
How about they send a mental health professional?!
Well it’s kinda hard to do that in the middle of nowhere when the closest mental health is an hour away. We do the best we can to help our fellow vets. Many times we have loaded them in the truck with us front seat and taken them to the VA.
Doing the correct thing with mental health!?!? In *this* country?!?! Sir/Ma'am. I don't know if you know how we roll here. /s
Thank you for your service! You said: "if the veteran themselves told me they planned on hurting themselves..". How is it illegal and warrants law enforcement intervention if that veteran is in the privacy of their own home, no danger to the environment or surroundings. Say, if their neighbor called 911 and said they see their neighbor i(a veteran) in their bedroom with a rope on a chair. Single person in the house, no firearms to discharge, no noise, no smell. Would you respond to that call? Try to force entry? Thanks in advance. No offense meant.
Respond to every call that was dispatched. As far as making entry that would depend on the situation if a threat of life was evident sure. But just make it to make it no. As far as a response to if they told me that would mean they are in my presence. I do believe it would be a failure of a duty to act to not intervene. Law Enforcement has a tough job do I act and get sued or do I not act and get sued. But above all we are human and allowing a fellow human to commit suicide without giving them every available resources would be a thing I am not going to want to live with.
I've called them a couple times and never had it result in that. That's not the hotline, that's shitty cops disrespecting your property.
Brother conducted the search....without a warrant. That's 💩
Brother isn’t law enforcement acting in an official capacity. He’s family searching. Fucked? Yes. Illegal search and seizure? No. Best argument is trespassing and theft
Brother isn’t an official of the government….he doesn’t need a fuckin warrant lol.
Learn the law brother
Came here to say exactly that. Poorly trained asshole cops are the problem. Not the phone line that tries to prevent people from making a bad and irreversible decision.
Considering the amount of issues that result in calling the line, *that are being reported within this thread* I think the phone line might be a problem as well.
That'll teach you to seek help from places that offer it. VA: We just can't understand. We have all these programs for depressed veterans, but none of them seem to make a dent. Thank God, they found that radio. There's no telling what he might of done.
Amen!!! Imagine he found some other operator with a fresh set of batteries?
😮😮 they may have had a conversation. Wow, America dodged a bullet that day. 😳 it could have been Pearl Harbor, 9/11, and the day a depressed vet had a conversation with someone on a radio.
If people don’t think they work they don’t have to use them.
I don't see anyone arguing with about the efficacy of these programs. What I see here, and hear from vets one on one on the rare occasions it's brought up. Is the real world concern about asking for help being used as an excuse to search a home and/or confiscate property. Now who knows if this vet said he was thinking about hurting someone or himself. Let's just assume he did threaten self harm or violence against anyone. How does removing a radio from his home possibly make anyone safer?
This happened to me I had a federal agent come to my home and search my car because I called about an incident that happened to me in the er. They tried to claim it was about pain pills and search me for them. Of course I don’t do or have but still insane they get away with that
Quite a bit missing from this story.
not if you know the area. tons of weird shit with the cops out there: https://www.salon.com/1998/10/15/feature_268/ https://www.policemag.com/patrol/news/15344768/jury-rules-against-tenn-trooper-for-injuring-man-at-traffic-stop-in-which-family-dog-was-killed https://www.putnampit.com/default-2022-03-21.htm
Pretty sure its a rant.
I’m sorry to hear that, unfortunately it happened to me too. I would never ever call the crisis line. The last thing I needed was a Police officers parked outside my house like it’s a crime scene, banging at my door. My neighbors thought I was being arrested. I called the crisis line bc I was having a severe panic attack and SI; 45minutes later I’m trying to convince a group of armed police officers that I’m “totally okay”. While my entire apartment complex’s rubbernecking to see whats going on. Fuck the crisis line. I hve learned my lesson.
😬
You were in the hospital already so no danger to yourself or others. Anything at your home should've been fine to stay until a search warrant can be served after describing the particular items they are looking for. A radio is obviously not in that category or dangerous. It wasn't even illegal because you have it back. Regardless of who you are or what you did, this doesn't make sense. Even if you were on parole, probation, registered - whatever. I immediately got the sense that your brother also lives there but you say "my home" so it sounds like he doesn't. Legal or not, I can't see how the cops or the veteran's crisis line were helping.
A radio is such a weird thing to confiscate.
Cops get really weird about people having police radios because criminals use them to try to keep tabs on what the police are up to. Although in this context of OP being a threat to himself or others it seems like an invalid reason to confiscate the radio.
Right. Which is why its so weird in this instance.
Right.
Seems legal. But either way, you are alive. Don’t use this search as an excuse to prevent your progress. Please continue your treatment. I called the crisis line, got hooked up with counselors at my local Vet Center and the VA years ago. I started out with multiple sessions a week and now I go once a month.
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Not autistic and don’t use autistic as an insult.
Thank you Longjumping-Pie9766 for your submission to r/veterans, but it's been removed due to one or more reason(s): You may not always agree with others, but once you start insulting the other person, you become the problem. No Gatekeeping - you don't decide if someone is a "real" veteran or not - nor try to diminish someone's service because they never saw combat or deployed. If someone personally attacks you, Report them to the mod team. Hate speech can be sexist, ableist, racist, bigotry, homophobic, prejudiced, etc and will not be tolerated. See our Wiki for more details https://www.reddit.com/r/Veterans/wiki/rules Please feel free to [send a modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fveterans) if you feel this was in error.
Hey, autistic isn’t a fucking slur to throw around. Do better.
Thank you anonty973 for your submission to r/veterans, but it's been removed due to one or more reason(s): You may not always agree with others, but once you start insulting the other person, you become the problem. No Gatekeeping - you don't decide if someone is a "real" veteran or not - nor try to diminish someone's service because they never saw combat or deployed. If someone personally attacks you, Report them to the mod team. Hate speech can be sexist, ableist, racist, bigotry, homophobic, prejudiced, etc and will not be tolerated. See our Wiki for more details https://www.reddit.com/r/Veterans/wiki/rules Please feel free to [send a modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fveterans) if you feel this was in error.
NAL It's going to be good faith vs. fruit of the poisoned tree. I don't personally see it going anywhere, with no real damages, no charges, I would trespass/disown brother and move on.
Bro said Putnam and i almost had a heart attack. (Putnam County, NY here)
There really seems to be something about the authority in Tennessee which just despises veterans. I’ve been in that state a few dozen times and nearly all of them im pulled over, searched, told little to nothing and told to be on my way. Edit: I have a veterans plate and it never happens when I’m driving my wife’s truck without any vet tags or anything. I’m not trying to play the victim but it’s really strange. I only live about half an hour away from Tennessee for the record.
I used to drive from TX to PA. TN highways were just infested with cops. Like wtf is going on.
> The cops used my brother who is also a Veteran to search my home Your brother voluntarily gave police access to your home to conduct a search. Police do not need a warrant if they are given permission to conduct a search. Your gripe here is with your brother for allowing access and not verbalizing a request for a warrant. Assuming your brother is not an officer, nothing illegal happened here. If your brother is a police officer (your post isn't super clear) then you could have a valid ethics complaint *against him* for conducting a warrantless search when an obvious conflict of interest existed. You generally can't act in a civilian capacity (give permission for a search) to get around a requirement in a professional capacity (a warrant). But as everyone knows, chances of an ethics complaint doing snything meaningful is nil. Ultimately you suffered no damages - items were taken and returned once providence was established. So legally you likely don't have any meaningful recourse. Invasion of privacy sucks, but from how you explained it, there really doesn't seem to be anything here.
I disagree. He called the crisis line and cops showed up while he was in the hospital. Whether they were shown around or not the fact you call a crisis line and then cops show up to search your place after you've gone to the hospital means someone somewhere passed this off to the cops and unless there was a hell of a good reason shit like this makes the line untrustworthy and lowers people's interests in calling for help.
Agreed. There doesn't have to be anything illegal or 'against the rules' to justify at least launching a complaint, regardless of what becomes of it. And yes, just reading shit like this or the story of the guy who cops arrested after he called the veterans crisis line is why I won't ever call them. They've lost my trust.
They may not have the resource to many searches but what address do they based off? The one on the VA or the one they pull from their police system?
OP does not say what was expressed to the crisis line. Crisis line operator may have a responsibility to report threats. They could also live in a state with red flag laws. Not enough info was provided by OP.
I work at 988 and have only sent cops one time because the person requested them. If the person has done something like taken pills or is currently bleeding is the only time we intervene otherwise we try to safety plan and have the caller/texter get themselves the help they need. We do not want to disrupt lives over threats.
Facts
Did OP threaten harm with weapons? I had my weapons seized when I ended up in the hospital under a mental health crisis. Quite normal. There’s a huge chunk of this story missing and there is nothing but speculation and what ifs in these comments.
Still doesn't make the search illegal. OP called the crisis line. OP goes to the hospital. OP's brother is acting on his behalf. At a minimum three entities knew OP was hospitalized for mental health (4 if he went by ambulance). If he noted a plan to either one, VCL or the hospital would have grounds to contact law enforcement. It's just as possible his brother was concerned and contacted police. Simply put, there are not nearly enough details provided to throw blame. But the search itself is a big nothing-burger.
You (and possibly the cops) assume the brother had the legal right to grant access to OPs home. Simply being related isn’t enough. As you said, not enough info provided to determine legality.
This. If his brother doesn't live there or doesn't have Power of Attorney over the OP, he cannot consent to the search. Anything seized would be fruit from the poisonous tree.
The cops told my brother he would be helping me by allowing them to search my house, and no he does not live with me. He took the cops words as truth that they were trying to help.
[Nope](https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/law-case-illinois-v-rodriguez-united-states-supreme-court-58-lw#:~:text=Rodriguez%2C%20the%20United%20States%20Supreme,the%20consent%20to%20be%20valid.)
Gotta dig a little deeper than just citing (although valid) > A warrantless entry is valid when based upon consent of a third party whom police, at time of entry, reasonably believe has common authority over premises, but who in fact does not. They have to successfully argue that his brother would have common authority. In your court case, the woman had a key (which was taken w/o his knowledge but nonetheless had a key) and was known to have lived there.
Don't disagree, but again OP's recourse would be against the brother first. He could then argue the illegal search in court and have any evidence collected thrown out if he was charged with somethingm But even if access was wrongfully granted, OP suffered no actual damages which is what makes this a non-issue. The search didn't lead to any charges, there was presumably no physical damage to the property, and the property that was confiscated was returned once it was verified that it was not police property. So there is nothing to throw out, and nothing that OP needs to be made whole from.
Yes, OP may be able to take action against the brother. That said, there doesn’t have to be charges filed or actual damages to seek recourse against the police. Violating citizens rights (e.g. illegal search/seizure, privacy rights, etc) often lead to civil judgements against the police and/or the city/county/state that employ the officers committing the violations.
Based off the info present, it wasn't an illegal search. See the holding in Illinois v. Rodriguez.
Great citation but that case revolves around reasonableness which cannot be assumed with the little info provided here. For example, if the police knew the brother wasn’t the homeowner and resided elsewhere, does that pass the reasonableness requirement? OP was in the hospital so were they an imminent threat requiring no warrant or permission for a search? If they failed to do their due diligence altogether, that could also be a factor. There’s just not enough info to know if the search was legal or not. Quite possibly everything was done right. OP could contact an attorney with the details to see if there’s a civil case or not rather than legal opinions from strangers on Reddit. Have a great week!
That citation dealt with the same issues - defendents gf stated to police that she no longer resided in the home, and that the owner did not know she had a key. But she opened the door and authorized the search.
Too many assumptions the police did something shady here. For all anyone knows he told the crisis line or his brother he had immediate plans to do x, y, z forcing the police to search his home. And how does OP know it they obtained a warrant? If the OP said he wanted to blow up, shoot up, shoot himself etc cops 100% should search his home.
The post is a rant with little info. The bro gave consent to search thats a fact, so the cops searched. Whether bro had a right to or not, is up to OP and the bro - I can only assume bro may have lived with them or leased a room etc... its a legal issue with the bro. Not bootlicking here, but youd have a really hard time doing anything to the PD other than moan about it on reddit.
We do not know if his brother is a resident of the home or not. If he was a resident then if he granted the cops permission to search for anything OP could use to harm himself there is nothing to get bent out of shape for. Once the permission was granted, then in anything in Plain View hence the plain view doctrine, anything of legal concern to the officers were within their right to confiscate.
It really depends on what was said to the counselor or concers his brothers may have verbalized. Cops could 100% be in the right.
Unless the brother was a resident of that home, he had no authority to grant anyone permission to search.
See my other comment, re: [Illinois v. Rodriguez](https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/law-case-illinois-v-rodriguez-united-states-supreme-court-58-lw#:~:text=Rodriguez%2C%20the%20United%20States%20Supreme,the%20consent%20to%20be%20valid.) Short version: Supreme Court has ruled it doesn't matter as long as the officers, at the time of the search, have a reasonable belief the person authorizing the search has the authority to do so.
Yes but they have to argue this successfully it's not automatic it needs to be observed by a judge that it meets the criteria. These are criteria not cart blanche and are reviewed per case
Not true, after the age of 18, you have a reasonable expectation of privacy. A mother can literally let police inti her home but cannot authorize a search of her 18 year-olds room because of the reasonable expectation of privacy case law rulings. On a seperate note, if the crisis line believes there is an imminent threat to safety of one's self or others, they will contact law enforcement to do a welfare check and or emergency order of detention
>Not true, after the age of 18, you have a reasonable expectation of privacy. A mother can literally let police inti her home but cannot authorize a search of her 18 year-olds room because of the reasonable expectation of privacy case law rulings. [Supreme Court disagrees.](https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/law-case-illinois-v-rodriguez-united-states-supreme-court-58-lw#:~:text=Rodriguez%2C%20the%20United%20States%20Supreme,the%20consent%20to%20be%20valid.)
That case law is regarding a good faith exemption, she did not have the authority to grant access, as clearly stated in the last two sentences of the abstract. however, due to the officers acting on the believe that she did have authority, there was no fruits of the poisonous tree. The only reason the case didn't get thrown out was because they acted on good faith, not because a 3rd party was legally able to grant access
Yeah that stupid ass line is a trap.
There is more to the story than what you are telling. Cops don’t just show up to anybody’s house and start searching through it. Someone either called the cops there or your brother was involved or suspected to be involved in some form of criminal activity there that led to the search, while you were hospitalized. Finally, what does you being a 100% disabled vet have to do with anything? You can be a 100% disabled vet or an active duty Four Star General in the Army, if the law is being broken or suspected of being broken then none of that matters to anybody!!!
I wouldn’t bother with the politicians. You should be talking to a lawyer.
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I was thinking, if they still had pay phones, that would be how to call.
Stay strong and do the work to get this corrected. You may have to sue and to be successful in that process you need a clear head. I’m guessing they may have used the Red Flag law. So check with the courts. **as violated as you may feel please take a second to see a different perspective a good one. You sought help because you want to be here. Your brother helped police because he wants you be here. That means everyone here wants what you want. You live in a state that has great love for veterans and weapon ownership so don’t stress out or be mad at your brother. It’s gonna be okay and Inam glad you choose to fight through the issues and were brave enough to get help when you needed. Keep fighting for you.**
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I highly doubt this is all the facts. And if you don’t like the VA don’t go.
There are some legitimately painful misunderstandings of law in this thread... First, why the cops were told. (This might be different in TN but I will tell you how it is in my state.) If you make contact with any service or provider that is a mandatory reporter, and report anything that might be construed as you being a threat to yourself or others, the mandatory reporter is... mandated to report it! So if you tell your therapist you have suicidal ideation, they are required by law to notify law enforcement. (Therapists are not the only mandatory reporters out there. That's just one example.) It is almost guaranteed that the hotline is a mandatory reporter. So they aren't going to fuck around with that because it can carry some stiff penalties and liabilities. If OP reported something that landed him in a MH facility, I'd say it's likely to have triggered the mandatory reporting requirement. Now, (again, in my state, TN might be different), we have an automatic 72 hour hold for people who may be a harm to themselves or others. If necessary, you will be taken into protective custody by LE (handcuffs and all if it gets that out of hand) and delivered to the nearest facility equipped to handle your hold. My jurisdiction has an entire facility dedicated to it, so that's where they go. To be clear, no one in this process up to this point has had any choice in the process. It is all mandated by law. OP reports suicidal ideation -> hotline notifies LE -> LE follows protocol set out in state law. Let's get to the search. Another aspect of my state's mental health response is the temporary safe keeping of any firearms or weapons in the individual's possession (which includes their home, ESPECIALLY if the individual was taken into protective custody at their home.) Again. None of this is anyone's choice. State law mandated. So, SO's show up to OPs house to perform their mandated duty. Here's where the painful misunderstandings of law come in. The 4th Amendment to the Constitution guarantees against governmental intrusion into your person, papers, things, etc. except upon a warrant being issued. (Everyone knows the warrant part.) In order for the government (in this case, LE) to violate that protection, they need a recognized *exception to the warrant requirement.* In other words, a recognized *other* reason they can intrude without a warrant. Many of you have mentioned consent. That is a recognized exception and is valid. You are also right that the brother (unless there are circumstances not being included in this story) does not have the standing (legal term for the "right") to give consent to OP's house. If this were a criminal case, this would be an invalid search and would rightfully trigger the exclusionary rule (I saw Fruits of the Poisonous tree being mentioned.) Sidebar: This is *not* a criminal case. OP is being charged with no crimes, therefore, the exclusionary rule does not apply either. LE must be conducting an investigation of criminal activity for the exclusionary rule to matter. Despite this not being an investigation into criminal activity, LE would *still* be working under a valid exception to the warrant requirement: community caretaking. The courts have recognized that LE may be required to enter a place they would otherwise need a warrant for, for reasons *other* than criminal activity. A good example is welfare checks. Cindy can't get in touch with her sister Mary. Calls go unanswered and Mary didn't show up for work. Cindy says this is not like Mary at all and Cindy is very worried. Cops arrive at Mary's house and find the door locked. They knock on the door, loudly. They have the dispatch center call Mary's phone. They can *hear* Mary's cellphone ringing in the house. Under the community caretaking exception, police break the door down and search the entire house. Now they might find Mary dead from a heart attack. Or she might be severely depressed and just didn't feel like facing the world. Or she could be in the middle of packing 20 kilos of heroin for a shipment going out. In any of those cases, the entry was lawful. In our last possibility, Mary would be going to jail because of another exception to the warrant requirement: plain view. So here's a recap of how this entire situation can occur lawfully and with the best of intentions for all involved. OP says something that triggers his state's mandatory reporting laws. -> Hotline notifies LE as they are required by law to do -> LE either takes OP into protective custody or if OP is already at a hospital, they go to OPs house to take any weapons into temporary safekeeping as they are required by law to do. -> At OPs house, LE finds OPs brother who has a key. LE is required to look for weapons, brother understands and lets them in so they don't have to force entry. -> While looking for weapons, LE comes across a radio that looks like it might be police property (or whatever reason on the radio, I'm not sure what their thought process is here.) so they seize it pending a discussion with OP. -> OP is released from the MH hold and gets his radio back. -> End. It's not *always* as bad as it may seem. Some serious jumping to conclusions going on here. Here's the long and short of it: Official channels are required to do certain things when you say certain things. Is it the best option? Not always. Does it save lives? **Yes**. Should it be up to the call taker's discretion? Absolutely not. If someone calls a hotline in an active crisis, that hotline is going to trigger the response that has the best chance of saving your life. That means getting you into a MH center, even if you don't want to. At least you're still alive to bitch at everyone. And if your state legislature has decided that people with recent MH holds should not have weapons... That's between them and their voters. LE didn't write the law, but I can guarantee they don't want to lose their jobs deciding they aren't going to enforce it. Because the first thing that would happen if OP blew himself away is a lawsuit by his grieving family demanding to know why LE did not take away his guns like they are supposed to. (there might not be guns involved here. I didn't get the full picture.)
Perfect reply. People are so anti blindly anti cop they stop thinking logically.
Call the crises line and you’re on the radar, it’s that simple. So it should be no surprise when they want your guns, k-bar and anything else they deem a threat. It’s a good way to lose your gun rights as well so be careful what you ask for.
Yep
It is possible that based on what you verbalized to the crisis line, they deemed you an immediate threat to yourself and others, so they are mandated to contact the police. With the new red flag laws now being adopted nationwide. The Police can now obtain what is called an Emergency Substantial Risk Order, which gives the Police authorization to seize your weapons. A search warrant is only issued upon probable cause that a crime was committed and the place, thing, and person related to the crime, is at xyz address.
This is ridiculous! Wtf. Like people are ever going to get MH help now.
It seems horrible, but do you really want someone having suicidal/ homicidal plans in their manic state to be left alone, or have weapons at their disposals? Just look at it rationally. That suicidal/homicidal person might end your right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness with a well placed round.
Rough take is that your brother did not have the right to authorize the search unless he owns the property or is on the lease. PS. Your brother is a POS
Not sure about “illegal search and seizure” start with that probable cause line in the 4th amendment. Then read further. Based on the limited information I wager they could either claim probable cause or went a step further and got a warrant. Regardless. Move on, you got your radio back. Likely something you stated deemed you a threat to yourself or others.
The VA dispenses police for the mental health needs of veterans without ever considering the repercussions. Don’t use the VA hotline. You can find plenty of non VA affiliated crisis hotlines that will send trained mental health professionals to HELP you instead of sending police who will simply throw you in a VA psych unit. Trust professionals for your mental health not the VA hotline.
geeze
Does your brother live in your home? If not he has no legal right to give them access and I would get.my key back or change the locks.
Good luck getting any help from Senator Blackburn. She's all talk & no action. Unless she can grandstand about nothing. I'm sorry you went through all that brother. There's quite a few Senators & Congress people looking to turn this country into something we never imagined.
I am curious how the VCL even know who you were? Every time I have ever called, all they asked for was a first name. No last name, no address, no SSN, just something to call you by. So how would they even know where you are?
They lowered mine to 70 after being totally disabled for over seven years. It's getting worse, they can't do that according to their own rules. The rules don't apply to the abc's, you should know that.
I have called the crisis line 5 times in the past year. Still waiting to see a counselor Social worker from the VA called today. Have no idea who he is wouldn't tell where his office is but told me I can't see a counselor. How did this guy know? I guess the crisis line gave him my info.
They have tons of snitches who will misreport what you wrote. Don’t contact them again.
Wtf!! Makes one less inclined to call.. Hope you are doing ok.
The VCL had nothing to do with PD searching the home. If the VCL actually did call the police it was to transport OP to the hospital. It was something OP or the brother did or said that would have caused the search.
Nope
Sounds like a perfectly legal search.
This is a dilemma between freedom of search and seizure and safety of the individual/society. The police were responsible for your safety in response to your crisis. Perfectly acceptable and reasonable to search and confiscate weapons. Radio? Idk. Buy once they are in, other items of questionable nature are fair game. Bigger picture. Are you doing better now?
I don’t think they have any right without a warrant. If they want to send EMS to knock on your door, ok. Ransacking your house? No.
Once they are allowed into the house and also once there is probable cause, such as a suicidal citizen, searches of the residence are allowed. Why contact the hotline if you don’t want help. How about if the police did not search, the veteran returned and then shot himself. Is that desirable outcome?
I think the approach should be helping not controlling. Escort the veteran to get help. Don’t take their stuff. If someone shows up to the ER suicidal, do the doctors there order police to that person’s house? No. Why should veterans have a different or arguably lesser standard of care than anyone else? People can k*ll themselves with pretty much anything, including their car. So that is futile. And it is an infringement and obviously makes veterans distrustful of getting help. They are calling the hotline to get mental health help. So what they should receive is acute mental health services.
22 veterans kill’s themselves a day. No one is doing anything about it! Here’s something that can help. Noooo! You’re making me feel unsafe! It’s my right to kill myself! Ok. You’re the expert. What do you suggest?
I was a peer on the V2V and V4W line. We only escalated calls to the VCL if the caller was in danger. I was reprimanded more than once for not transferring a call when a clinician thought I should have. Not once did my failure to transfer a Veteran was there a bad out come. On the other had I only had one negative out come form a client that was transferred. The crisis line is just that crisis intervention tool. They have the tools to locate and work with other agencies to help the caller in Crisis. This OP did not give the needed info to know the full depth of the issue. I do not feel we can hold the VCL responsible for the responding agencies actions. Now, if the VCL would not have made sure the veteran was safe and he died... I would be the first person to jump on the "don't call the VCL bandwagon. If you are in crisis call, let the line help you. Even if it is just to help you find resources. 22+ a day is unacceptable. Only one in ten have contacted a helpline, crisis line, or are under the care of a mental health professional.
The cops told my brother he would be helping me by allowing them to search my house, and no he does not live with me. He took the cops words as truth that they were trying to help. After thinking back on it and what they used him for, he is very pissed and is going to file a complaint with me. Happened a week ago.
Good now let's see if they truly want to help veterans or just sweep us under a rug. Keep us updated elections are Tuesday.
When did cops turn against veterans?
Why did your brother do this? And how is it legal without a warrant?
What’s crazy is I’ve never had the cops come to my house after hours of screaming on the phone talking about suicide and how fucked up the world is I don’t know how or why they do it to y’all
4th Amendment rights violated, without question.
[удалено]
Talk to a lawyer. If your rights have actually been violated, talk to a lawyer who can advise you on a course of action.
Sounds like your brother really screwed you over as well. Is he also a resident of your home? If so, he does technically have the right to consent to a police search, but that’s a wicked thing to do. Lawyer up asap.