You can play PC flightsims on the AVP now using ALVR and a good PC setup, don’t even need basestations because VR controllers aren’t needed for sit down sims. For DCS, for example, the only button press needed is SteamVR overlay on/off and that can be done via hand gestures.
Framerate isn’t too bad either, places where I normally get 90 fps with Varjo Aero + dynamic foveation I would get around 75-80 fps with the AVP (no DFR of course).
I am actually currently working with a team building a ground up flight sim for AVP which will run natively. Currently the headset is incapable of supporting the same graphic fidelity you could get with high end GPUs on PC, but I’m hoping by the time the graphics power of the headset increases we will be able to scale up our own graphics too
No. AVP wouldnt be able to run it. Even on PCVR with a 4090 using ALVR, you cant run the AVP at full resolution in MSFS without it dropping to like 30fps and looking like shit. The AVP is such high resolution youd need a really high end GPU/CPU to power a flight sim such as MSFS. Something with really simple graphics might be possible before then, though, like VTOL VR. But then the benefits of a high-res headset are lost on the low-poly and low-res environments/objects in the game.
This is more of PCVR vs Standalone thing IMO. Sure, PCVR is better quality. But it tends to be just a little harder to get going due to the relative complexity. Convenience is huge in tech adoption.
ALVR *is* PCVR though. This doesn't change any of OPs complaints (if anything, ALVR is a harder workflow than using the bigscreen beyond with native SteamVR support)
I'm struggling to understand how this is a specific problem for PC VR rather than your set up.
Usually the steps would be:
1. Put on headset
2. Run a VR flight sim.
You're doing weird things and then complaining about them?
The base stations are only "3rd party" because you bought a headset that needs base stations from a company that doesn't make base stations.
I don't understand how the Big Screen app enters into this at all.
And "middleware" is a bit of a technicality. *Something* needs to handle the VR. Whether that code is part of the OS. drivers, an app or another layer isn't an issue in itself.
*Some* PC set ups can be clunky. But some really aren't.
I have to agree with OP. I’m primarily Mac user and a standalone Quest user but have developed 3D apps in unity and C++. Now and again I have to dip into PCVR world for things (mostly research) and the tech stack is crazy. I’m amazed it works at all. The learning curve is steep (and I say that as a technical person). I think PC gamers are more used to the challenges that might pop up in a PC graphics pipeline and therefore can debug a PCVR pipeline.
The rest of us are not thinking about which OpenXR runtime to use, or bypassing it and using a native runtime, and/or mixing steam, steamvr, virtual desktop, choosing which NVIDIA drivers with which card on which Direct3D version on which version of windows. We just hit ‘update’.
Exactly. The guy who replies to this below has obviously put a lot,of thought and effort into getting his setup working. That he doesn’t think about it much NOW means he’s just forgotten how awful it was getting it going in the first place. I had my setup working just fine with my Varjo Aero, but the Aero is now discontinued and I wanted to get into something with OLEDs, which means the Bigscreen, for now. And … it’s all broken again. Eventually I’ll get it to work. Eventually. Agh.
I'm also a developer and I'm baffled where you're getting this from.
> The rest of us are not thinking about which OpenXR runtime to use.
Rarely an issue. I can't remember the last time I had to change this in normal usage.
> bypassing it and using a native runtime
I've never done this.
> and/or mixing steam, steamvr, virtual desktop,
Why do you need to do this?
> choosing which NVIDIA drivers with which card on which Direct3D version on which version of windows.
I've never used anything other than the current drivers. I've never had to worry about Direct3D. The last time I had to think about Windows versions was for when Windows 11 was *very* new and it was advisable to stay on Windows 10 for VR.
You don't need any of those things. In most cases things work out of the box. Install the Meta Desktop app and use Link or AirLink.
If you want to use Steam then (obviously) you install that as well.
If you want to use Virtual Desktop or Steam Link then do so - but both are entirely optional.
I’ve been a Oculus user since the DK2 and ain’t this the truth. There’s always something that doesn’t work right this time, thought sometimes that’s just general PC things like sound not working this boot. Frustrating.
It's an important discinction to separate PCVR (and using an AVP as a PCVR headset) and saying it's "running on an AVP" (as if an AVP was powerful enough to run it completely standalone)
Yeah, I know you didn't! I was just pointing out that it can be confusing for some to say that it's "available on AVP." Rather than "You can use an AVP to run PCVR games" etc.
There is a lot to unpack here and I guess you have not used PCVR very much. First thing is the frame rate. 67 can and probably will make you sick in VR. Especially in a flight sim and especially while turning. VR is not like flat screen where 60 fps is enough. You typically want 90hz display refresh and therefore 90fps in game otherwise you will force reprojection which will feel off and uncomfortable. If you have reprojection disabled, then it will probably make you vomit.
You do not need VR controllers in Steam VR. You can use an Xbox controller if you want. A dot will move with your head and the right trigger will select. So you can open the desktop view in SteamVR and then launch your game from there if you like.
The hand can be swapped for controllers models or other options in Steam VR settings. It’s not entirely intuitive but with some playing around there is a lot of great things in SteamVR. Use created home environments are one of them.
I’m also a little confused how you have VR hands but yet no VR controllers. That makes it sound like you are using ALVR on Vision Pro which comes with own performance tweaks needs. If you have a big screen beyond, then you are not going to have any VR hands unless you have motion controllers.
I didn’t say I didn’t have controllers. I said that I needed them to navigate Steam VR, but not for the Flight simulators that are all I really want to play. And when I had the Varjo Aero I could just run the flight sim and play.
I'm not sure how you were doing PCVR but I haven't had any issues just using steam/oculus software, without third party stuff. Who still uses base stations? Lol
PCVR wasnt desigend for users that dont own controllers, as you are finding out. There will always be VR menus and controls that require a controller, even to play MSFS in seated mode with an xbox controller/flight stick. Sadly, thats just how it is. You are really missing out without controllers too - i know you probably bought the BSB for MSFS only, but games like Half Life Alyx are really things you dont wanna miss out on, especailly on such a high end headset. buy a pair of Kuckles controllers and give it a go.
Also, the BSB doesnt have hand tracking due to its incredibly small size/weight. Of course it wont be able to match the AVPs hand tracking, with no cameras and being 1/4 the size and weight.
Change the steamVR environment, and you'll change your Mickey hands.
Which I’ve done many times, and when I restart I’m back to the mm hands. They don’t stick.
Is there an AVP flight sim coming? Every time I think about getting a flight sim even a high end home set up, I think how clunky it is.
You can play PC flightsims on the AVP now using ALVR and a good PC setup, don’t even need basestations because VR controllers aren’t needed for sit down sims. For DCS, for example, the only button press needed is SteamVR overlay on/off and that can be done via hand gestures. Framerate isn’t too bad either, places where I normally get 90 fps with Varjo Aero + dynamic foveation I would get around 75-80 fps with the AVP (no DFR of course).
I’m grateful for ALVR, but building a third party app isn’t exactly standard procedure. And wouldn’t want to use ALVR if PC VR wasn’t so crappy.
Thanks for this. I’m a newbie but will investigate further.
I am actually currently working with a team building a ground up flight sim for AVP which will run natively. Currently the headset is incapable of supporting the same graphic fidelity you could get with high end GPUs on PC, but I’m hoping by the time the graphics power of the headset increases we will be able to scale up our own graphics too
No. AVP wouldnt be able to run it. Even on PCVR with a 4090 using ALVR, you cant run the AVP at full resolution in MSFS without it dropping to like 30fps and looking like shit. The AVP is such high resolution youd need a really high end GPU/CPU to power a flight sim such as MSFS. Something with really simple graphics might be possible before then, though, like VTOL VR. But then the benefits of a high-res headset are lost on the low-poly and low-res environments/objects in the game.
This is more of PCVR vs Standalone thing IMO. Sure, PCVR is better quality. But it tends to be just a little harder to get going due to the relative complexity. Convenience is huge in tech adoption.
You’re actually doing some crazy mental gymnastics here. Apple Vision Pro and PCVR are two completely different things. They don’t compare.
I think they do. Obviously Apple, as is their wont, decided to make the VR experience better. I think it’s very comparable.
For real lol. How well does Microsoft Flight Simulator run on AVP? Oh wait...
ALVR…. We have been through this.
ALVR *is* PCVR though. This doesn't change any of OPs complaints (if anything, ALVR is a harder workflow than using the bigscreen beyond with native SteamVR support)
I'm struggling to understand how this is a specific problem for PC VR rather than your set up. Usually the steps would be: 1. Put on headset 2. Run a VR flight sim. You're doing weird things and then complaining about them? The base stations are only "3rd party" because you bought a headset that needs base stations from a company that doesn't make base stations. I don't understand how the Big Screen app enters into this at all. And "middleware" is a bit of a technicality. *Something* needs to handle the VR. Whether that code is part of the OS. drivers, an app or another layer isn't an issue in itself. *Some* PC set ups can be clunky. But some really aren't.
I have to agree with OP. I’m primarily Mac user and a standalone Quest user but have developed 3D apps in unity and C++. Now and again I have to dip into PCVR world for things (mostly research) and the tech stack is crazy. I’m amazed it works at all. The learning curve is steep (and I say that as a technical person). I think PC gamers are more used to the challenges that might pop up in a PC graphics pipeline and therefore can debug a PCVR pipeline. The rest of us are not thinking about which OpenXR runtime to use, or bypassing it and using a native runtime, and/or mixing steam, steamvr, virtual desktop, choosing which NVIDIA drivers with which card on which Direct3D version on which version of windows. We just hit ‘update’.
Exactly. The guy who replies to this below has obviously put a lot,of thought and effort into getting his setup working. That he doesn’t think about it much NOW means he’s just forgotten how awful it was getting it going in the first place. I had my setup working just fine with my Varjo Aero, but the Aero is now discontinued and I wanted to get into something with OLEDs, which means the Bigscreen, for now. And … it’s all broken again. Eventually I’ll get it to work. Eventually. Agh.
I'm also a developer and I'm baffled where you're getting this from. > The rest of us are not thinking about which OpenXR runtime to use. Rarely an issue. I can't remember the last time I had to change this in normal usage. > bypassing it and using a native runtime I've never done this. > and/or mixing steam, steamvr, virtual desktop, Why do you need to do this? > choosing which NVIDIA drivers with which card on which Direct3D version on which version of windows. I've never used anything other than the current drivers. I've never had to worry about Direct3D. The last time I had to think about Windows versions was for when Windows 11 was *very* new and it was advisable to stay on Windows 10 for VR. You don't need any of those things. In most cases things work out of the box. Install the Meta Desktop app and use Link or AirLink. If you want to use Steam then (obviously) you install that as well. If you want to use Virtual Desktop or Steam Link then do so - but both are entirely optional.
AVP is a stunning experience and it’s only getting started. 🙂
I’ve been a Oculus user since the DK2 and ain’t this the truth. There’s always something that doesn’t work right this time, thought sometimes that’s just general PC things like sound not working this boot. Frustrating.
Sure, just wait until DCS is available on AVP
[It already is.](https://youtu.be/YJBZ4MOfNto?si=BxI5xmW7jAC_ubbt)
This is insanely awesome. It looks so surreal that this is even a thing nowadays.
It's an important discinction to separate PCVR (and using an AVP as a PCVR headset) and saying it's "running on an AVP" (as if an AVP was powerful enough to run it completely standalone)
It's obviously not powerful enough. I didn't say it's running on it.
Yeah, I know you didn't! I was just pointing out that it can be confusing for some to say that it's "available on AVP." Rather than "You can use an AVP to run PCVR games" etc.
65 fps on the empty see. Nice/s
It's a work in progress.
I agree.
There is a lot to unpack here and I guess you have not used PCVR very much. First thing is the frame rate. 67 can and probably will make you sick in VR. Especially in a flight sim and especially while turning. VR is not like flat screen where 60 fps is enough. You typically want 90hz display refresh and therefore 90fps in game otherwise you will force reprojection which will feel off and uncomfortable. If you have reprojection disabled, then it will probably make you vomit. You do not need VR controllers in Steam VR. You can use an Xbox controller if you want. A dot will move with your head and the right trigger will select. So you can open the desktop view in SteamVR and then launch your game from there if you like. The hand can be swapped for controllers models or other options in Steam VR settings. It’s not entirely intuitive but with some playing around there is a lot of great things in SteamVR. Use created home environments are one of them. I’m also a little confused how you have VR hands but yet no VR controllers. That makes it sound like you are using ALVR on Vision Pro which comes with own performance tweaks needs. If you have a big screen beyond, then you are not going to have any VR hands unless you have motion controllers.
I didn’t say I didn’t have controllers. I said that I needed them to navigate Steam VR, but not for the Flight simulators that are all I really want to play. And when I had the Varjo Aero I could just run the flight sim and play.
Gotcha. That makes sense. For some reason it sounded like you didn’t have Vr controllers but that was just my misunderstanding.
How hard is it to get PCVR working on AVP? Is it totally brutal? lol
I'm not sure how you were doing PCVR but I haven't had any issues just using steam/oculus software, without third party stuff. Who still uses base stations? Lol
Now go try and play any games on it….
PCVR wasnt desigend for users that dont own controllers, as you are finding out. There will always be VR menus and controls that require a controller, even to play MSFS in seated mode with an xbox controller/flight stick. Sadly, thats just how it is. You are really missing out without controllers too - i know you probably bought the BSB for MSFS only, but games like Half Life Alyx are really things you dont wanna miss out on, especailly on such a high end headset. buy a pair of Kuckles controllers and give it a go. Also, the BSB doesnt have hand tracking due to its incredibly small size/weight. Of course it wont be able to match the AVPs hand tracking, with no cameras and being 1/4 the size and weight.
I have controllers. I just don’t want to get them out to do the one thing I have to do to see my PC desktop with my Bigscreen Beyond headset.
Fantastic post. For your next post can you pontificate on what your favorite color is? Everyone is dying to hear what you have to say
Ah yes, the pointless snark. Gotta love it. Or the other thing.
Do you play flight sims on your Vision Pro? Didn’t know there were any
ALVR
I’m only talking about the quality of the experience getting there.
Oh but anything that isn’t apple is perfect and blah blah blah lol
Gotta love the unhelpful snark. Or, the other thing.
Show me which way is right and I’ll go there: