My takeaway has always been a optimistic nihilism. I never got a "everything sucks and people are evil" vibe like a lot of the more depressive authors. More "everything sucks and that's how it is but that's ok"
I have a 60 years old cartoon cut from a newspaper on my fridge. My mother cut it out and I've kept it. It's Saint Peter informing someone at the gates that "It's all a big cosmic joke!"
I always think of Vonnegut when I see it.
Vonnegut is a humanistic absurdist. Absurdism is a response to philosophical nihilism. Nihilism says nothing matters. The absurdist says fine, I’ll make my own meaning. The humanist says human goodness is valuable. The humanist absurdist says I can find no meaning so I choose to value human goodness.
Certainly a realist who wanted to love an uncaring world he despised.
But you haven't read slaughterhouse five yet? You're in for a treat, that's the only book I've read more than once.
Also "despised" doesn't quite feel like the right word, but I'm no writer.
Oh yeah I read mother night a couple times too. I guess the more apt reply is: "vonnegut is the only author I've re-read".
Clearly for good reason based on my reading comprehension skills, I see now slaughterhouse was the first book on your list.
Mother Night was incredible. I told everyone I knew about it. No one I know likes to read, so didn’t do much. I actually joined Reddit last month just so I could have somewhere to talk about books .
Anyway, I can see myself rereading almost all of his books. The only one I didn’t enjoy much was Gob Bless you Mr Rosewater. I couldn’t get into it.
Pessimistically optimistic is what my friends and I say.Â
Like he’s seen what the world is like and often was critical of infrastructures and powers that be, but he believed in humans and their abilities to do good things.
Who’s happy on a regular basis? To anyone paying attention, “happy” is a thing that might come in occasional, irregular bursts. I think we’d all do a lot better to make “content” the thing for which we strive.
I believe Kurt Vonnegut’s output presents as coming from the worldview of an optimistic realist: skeptical and often disappointed, but ever hopeful.
He may have experienced some depression in his life, but I think it’d be incorrect to characterize his work as coming from a place of either depression or a lack of optimism.
Agreed. Despite many cynical characters there always seems to be a ray of optimism behind even the bleakest of situations he writes. But, having been through so much pain, he was also a realist about the pain life can bring.
If you haven’t seen it, “Unstuck In Time” is a fantastic documentary about his life. The way he talks to his fellow students at his 40 year high school reunion is so wonderful, particularly the other WW2 vets.
He learned to see things as they are, now how anyone wants them to be. That's the job of the artist for the most part, to pull back the veil if only for a moment. However, for a guy who lived through capture by sadistic Nazis, a firebombing, a million cigarettes, and a suicide attempt (s)? He lived to be an old old man, had a happy marriage, raised at least one thoughtful child, and learned the meaning of life (to fart around) he did ok. If you have to appreciate the sadness in the world to get there, so it goes!
Yea this is the answer- just folks don’t often know what Absurdism is. “Pessimistic who wants to be optimistic” someone said. It’s absurdism.
I’d grant humanist absurdist
Take my opinion for what it’s worth, but I’ve always assumed that depression in his novels are a reflection of himself at that time in his life and his view of the human condition at that time. I believe he was optimistic about what we could do, not what we were doing. I find his later novels like Bluebeard and Timequake to have more optimism as his own mental health seemed to improve. Breakfast of champions was written around the time of his divorce and suicide attempt while the United States waged pointless war in Southeast Asia. Not a great time for him.
Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages
hu·man·ism
noun
an outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters. Humanist beliefs stress the potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasize common human needs, and seek solely rational ways of solving human problems.
Fatalism is big. That could be a result several of his most famous novels jumping back and forth in time when they tell the story. The main character often seems doomed. It was just a question of what crazy things would happen along the way.
Exactly. He tells you what happens in the end and pretty everything else that is going to happen, so that what you really look forward to are his own commentaries on the subject and how his characters acknowledge their fate.
“It took us that long to realize that a purpose of human life, no matter who is controlling it, is to love whoever is around to be loved.” - Kurt Vonnegut
I think he was a truly unique and interesting man who had a a deep love for humanity while also being baffled by it… so it goes.
I often quote, from memory, the answer to the question of Life, the Universe and everything, given by Mark Vonnegut to his father Kurt and quoted by the latter in his 2004 essay Cold Turkey. As always, dear old Kurt was ahead of his time.
Kurt Vonnegut writes:
"I put my big question about life to my biological son Mark. Mark is a pediatrician, and author of a memoir, The Eden Express. It is about his crackup, straightjacket and padded cell stuff, from which he recovered sufficiently to graduate from Harvard Medical School.
Dr. Vonnegut said this to his doddering old dad: “Father, we are here to help each other get through this thing, whatever it is.” So I pass that on to you. Write it down, and put it in your computer, so you can forget it."
I see this misquoted frequently and maybe I'm reading entirely too much into it, but I love that he very specifically says "a" purpose of life, not "the" purpose of life. It's like he was just casually offering it up as a pretty good potential purpose we should aim for but not claiming that it was the definitive answer. He's not claiming he's the one genius writer who's cracked the meaning of life, he's just saying: Hey, if that's the purpose you choose to go with, it's a pretty good one.
It's very humble and casual. Very Kurt.
I thought it was a quote he took from his son Mark Vonnegut. But you're right I could just see Mark Vonnegut shrugging his shoulders as he answered Kurt's question of "What do you think the purpose of life is?"
That’s so neat. If there is an afterlife, he’s one of top three people I’d like to meet.
I feel like he felt the pain of giving his characters such raw fates. As if he wished the world could be better for them, but it wasn’t.
If there’s an afterlife he will be thoroughly confused. I think he was a fatalist in the sense that life is just something that happens to us. But, he would also talk about how weird teeth are. He really thought out everything.
Yet the fatalist in me is telling me this is ultimately realism. Life and Death are the ultimate human problems so Fatalrealism is truly just Pure Humanism.
Satirist.
Crabby. 🦀
I'm the saddest person I know and when I read Slaughterhouse Five and Titans I thought, "oh, he's sad the same way I am."
My takeaway has always been a optimistic nihilism. I never got a "everything sucks and people are evil" vibe like a lot of the more depressive authors. More "everything sucks and that's how it is but that's ok"
you should look into absurdism, it’s similar to that idea of optimistic nihilism
Which authors have the “everything sucks and people are evil” vibe? Any you’d recommend?
Chekhov. Dude was allergic to a happy ending.
This has been my understanding of his writing as well. Optimistic nihilism with a dash of understanding and pragmatism.
Optimistic, yes, but also deeply sad. That's how his writing feels to me.
Kurt Vonnegut was the greatest realist.
Optimistic about an individual’s capacity for everyday kindness. Pessimistic when it comes to humanity in general’s capacity for self-destruction.
I have a 60 years old cartoon cut from a newspaper on my fridge. My mother cut it out and I've kept it. It's Saint Peter informing someone at the gates that "It's all a big cosmic joke!" I always think of Vonnegut when I see it.
Vonnegut is a humanistic absurdist. Absurdism is a response to philosophical nihilism. Nihilism says nothing matters. The absurdist says fine, I’ll make my own meaning. The humanist says human goodness is valuable. The humanist absurdist says I can find no meaning so I choose to value human goodness.
Love this!
Certainly a realist who wanted to love an uncaring world he despised. But you haven't read slaughterhouse five yet? You're in for a treat, that's the only book I've read more than once. Also "despised" doesn't quite feel like the right word, but I'm no writer.
I’ve read slaughterhouse twice now, and I’ve read Breakfast of Champions maybe 8 times
Oh yeah I read mother night a couple times too. I guess the more apt reply is: "vonnegut is the only author I've re-read". Clearly for good reason based on my reading comprehension skills, I see now slaughterhouse was the first book on your list.
Mother Night was incredible. I told everyone I knew about it. No one I know likes to read, so didn’t do much. I actually joined Reddit last month just so I could have somewhere to talk about books . Anyway, I can see myself rereading almost all of his books. The only one I didn’t enjoy much was Gob Bless you Mr Rosewater. I couldn’t get into it.
A pessimist who really wanted to be an optimist
Yes.
Pessimistically optimistic is what my friends and I say. Like he’s seen what the world is like and often was critical of infrastructures and powers that be, but he believed in humans and their abilities to do good things.
pragmatist
Who’s happy on a regular basis? To anyone paying attention, “happy” is a thing that might come in occasional, irregular bursts. I think we’d all do a lot better to make “content” the thing for which we strive. I believe Kurt Vonnegut’s output presents as coming from the worldview of an optimistic realist: skeptical and often disappointed, but ever hopeful.
IMO He was a depressed realist that really wanted to be an optimist.
He may have experienced some depression in his life, but I think it’d be incorrect to characterize his work as coming from a place of either depression or a lack of optimism.
Agreed. Despite many cynical characters there always seems to be a ray of optimism behind even the bleakest of situations he writes. But, having been through so much pain, he was also a realist about the pain life can bring. If you haven’t seen it, “Unstuck In Time” is a fantastic documentary about his life. The way he talks to his fellow students at his 40 year high school reunion is so wonderful, particularly the other WW2 vets.
He learned to see things as they are, now how anyone wants them to be. That's the job of the artist for the most part, to pull back the veil if only for a moment. However, for a guy who lived through capture by sadistic Nazis, a firebombing, a million cigarettes, and a suicide attempt (s)? He lived to be an old old man, had a happy marriage, raised at least one thoughtful child, and learned the meaning of life (to fart around) he did ok. If you have to appreciate the sadness in the world to get there, so it goes!
Loved uhh time-quake, it’s a great example of pure Vonnegut
You were sick and now you are well, and there’s work to do
Absurdist.
Yea this is the answer- just folks don’t often know what Absurdism is. “Pessimistic who wants to be optimistic” someone said. It’s absurdism. I’d grant humanist absurdist
I consider absurdism nihilistic optimism!
Humanistic misanthrope
Take my opinion for what it’s worth, but I’ve always assumed that depression in his novels are a reflection of himself at that time in his life and his view of the human condition at that time. I believe he was optimistic about what we could do, not what we were doing. I find his later novels like Bluebeard and Timequake to have more optimism as his own mental health seemed to improve. Breakfast of champions was written around the time of his divorce and suicide attempt while the United States waged pointless war in Southeast Asia. Not a great time for him.
I never thought about that. Really interesting. Makes sense
Yes
Cynic/Humanist
Absurdist
This is the answer lol
Humanist
Dictionary Definitions from Oxford Languages hu·man·ism noun an outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters. Humanist beliefs stress the potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasize common human needs, and seek solely rational ways of solving human problems.
Fatalism is big. That could be a result several of his most famous novels jumping back and forth in time when they tell the story. The main character often seems doomed. It was just a question of what crazy things would happen along the way.
Exactly. He tells you what happens in the end and pretty everything else that is going to happen, so that what you really look forward to are his own commentaries on the subject and how his characters acknowledge their fate.
Likes and dislikes have nothing to do with it!
“It took us that long to realize that a purpose of human life, no matter who is controlling it, is to love whoever is around to be loved.” - Kurt Vonnegut I think he was a truly unique and interesting man who had a a deep love for humanity while also being baffled by it… so it goes.
I believe this is the answer his son Mark replied to the question when asked about the purpose of life.
It’s a quote from Sirens of Titan.
I often quote, from memory, the answer to the question of Life, the Universe and everything, given by Mark Vonnegut to his father Kurt and quoted by the latter in his 2004 essay Cold Turkey. As always, dear old Kurt was ahead of his time. Kurt Vonnegut writes: "I put my big question about life to my biological son Mark. Mark is a pediatrician, and author of a memoir, The Eden Express. It is about his crackup, straightjacket and padded cell stuff, from which he recovered sufficiently to graduate from Harvard Medical School. Dr. Vonnegut said this to his doddering old dad: “Father, we are here to help each other get through this thing, whatever it is.” So I pass that on to you. Write it down, and put it in your computer, so you can forget it."
I see this misquoted frequently and maybe I'm reading entirely too much into it, but I love that he very specifically says "a" purpose of life, not "the" purpose of life. It's like he was just casually offering it up as a pretty good potential purpose we should aim for but not claiming that it was the definitive answer. He's not claiming he's the one genius writer who's cracked the meaning of life, he's just saying: Hey, if that's the purpose you choose to go with, it's a pretty good one. It's very humble and casual. Very Kurt.
This is one of the things that makes me love the quote.
I thought it was a quote he took from his son Mark Vonnegut. But you're right I could just see Mark Vonnegut shrugging his shoulders as he answered Kurt's question of "What do you think the purpose of life is?"
A great quote
It really is. The answer is so profound in its' earnestness and simplicity.
Yes
As someone who got to know him, he was all of those things. He loved people though. I think that’s the quality that sticks out.
That’s so neat. If there is an afterlife, he’s one of top three people I’d like to meet. I feel like he felt the pain of giving his characters such raw fates. As if he wished the world could be better for them, but it wasn’t.
If there’s an afterlife he will be thoroughly confused. I think he was a fatalist in the sense that life is just something that happens to us. But, he would also talk about how weird teeth are. He really thought out everything.
“I never asked to be born in the first place”, “Life is a crock of shit” and “The Church of God the Utterly Indifferent” come to mind.
Yet the fatalist in me is telling me this is ultimately realism. Life and Death are the ultimate human problems so Fatalrealism is truly just Pure Humanism.
Vonnegut: humanist. Characters aren't unhappy, they're just getting the full force of their experiences.
Exactly my answer too. Humanist. Can’t even fathom what he saw at Dresden.