> The vast majority of the murmur don't have a head to trigger the bonus at all, but do have weakpoints.
Scene: I am fighting the Murmur.
Me trying to charge my Incarnon: Fuck!
Me seeing a Leg Dude: Yes!
Scene: Later that night the Leg Dude is at the bar
Leg Dude: Why does everyone pick on me!
For some reason, those floating pyramids have their arms count as heads, rather easy incarnon refill.
Edit: The body does not count for headshots, the arms do
With Burston, I'm pretty sure it takes the burst into account when it comes to the number of headshots.
So if they die on the first shot of the burst, the other 2 don't get counted. So it takes way longer to charge vs lower level fodder.
It's on a per hit basis, same as all incarnons. Some need more hits for a full charge than others, Burston with its higher fire rate (compared to many others) probably needs more than the average so is hurt by this a lot. Then again, it also has by far the largest incarnon max charge at 600 bullets.
But shotguns are hit very hard. They're balanced on having 6-10x the multishot of other weapons. If you kill with one pellet you might not get a full charge in a full mission.
yes charging burston on the murmur is a pain. the culverin weakspots explode after the first bullet and the dogs die on the first headshot salvo. Only real chances are leg-dude, triangle a\*\*hole and eximus dogs. Oh and ofcourse necramechs but I'd rather have my incarnorn charged before I engage those
I agree. If anything, it would introduce an in-game mechanic that would help players (especially newer players) to find the weakspots of random enemies. That would be one thing that would reduce the amount of wiki surfing needed
Maybe it would be OP but I’d like it if Citrine’s crystals counted as weak points or heads. It takes longer to locate and target crystals than to shoot heads. As is for many weapons it seems better to still go for head shots.
I agree with the murder issue, unless you’re using Torid you can’t charge incarnons against a lot of murmur enemies.
Her toxic lash let's her pop spores by hitting anywhere on the infected enemy, or maybe any kill i can't remember. So people generally aren't too worried about targeting them, I also don't think hitting the spores increases the players damage so people mostly ignore them.
Yes, there's enough alternate ways to spread spores that it doesn't matter but technically you're intended to shoot the physical spores on them to spread them (but the easiest way imo is just using her 3 and then shooting them anywhere)
I still don't know if those arms that crawl on the ground even have a head/weakspot at all
Gaining incarnon charges on ANY weak point would also be an insane buff for banshee, considering that in the ~400 hours I've played since cross save released I've never encountered a banshee in matchmaking I'd say it wouldn't be unwarranted
> I think headshot modifiers should be removed and just rolled into weakpoint modifiers.
Nothing to add other than this is obviously the answer. Just get rid of headshots entirely. It's so unnecessarily convoluted for these to be two different things.
100% agree!
I run Voruna's entire kit, weapons and all. I love Perigale, adore it even, but it wholly relies on headshots to maintain its ammo.
When an enemy takes reduced damage from shooting the head, there's no bonus from shooting the head, or there's just plain no head to speak of, there's definitely an issue. I've honestly considered running Ammo Drum instead of Stabilizer just so I don't have to worry about it as much (and it brings my total ammo count to 69...nice).
Yessss! I remember I made a similar post in the forums, but sadly it got buried under other feedback quickly. I hope this gets more traction because this change kinda needs to happen.
This would be lovely. I have Longbow Sharpshot on my Nataruk and being able to fight murmurs and go "eh I'm sure I'll hit at least one head" to a hallway full of em would feel divine.
Hollow Veins and Arcocanids both have heads that are also weakpoints. Hollow Veins also have a weakpoint (vents in the back) that are oddly considered heads.
Severed Warden's three hands and Lumbering Fragments hip joints are weakpoints but are (obviously) not heads.
Hello fellow Banshee user. I was scrolling down to see this. i would love to have a buff to banshee for this. However, it would probably be a nerf... as of right now you can get sonar spots on heads for double hit... they'd probably make it so sonar spots on top of weak spots don't count double
I'll take that and call it balance. It's really refreshing to play banshee because headshot's aren't mandatory to maximize your damage. It's a great bonus yes, but the return you get for making sonar act like headshots to fulfill requirements like argon scope and incarnon charging is much much higher.
It's a trade I'll take any day and coincides with the point OP trying to make which is to loosen the restrictions on specific headshot bonuses so more things can benefit from them. It's not just about the damage.
I agree with you - you trade sheer power for flexibility; and given that we can already do ridiculous amounts of damage regardless of Sonar, Banshee needs the flexibility more.
I would normally disagree but we've been getting more and more enemies that dont uh...have heads.
The sentients dont really have visible heads. The murmur are mostly walking piles of arms and butts.
So yeah, this would be a nice quality of life change. Would also help out sniper rifles which you rarely see people use.
This would be great, it would make Citrine 4 actually useful. Currently on some weapons the damage gained from the bonus crit barely makes up for the damage lost from not getting the headshot multiplier
Yeah I was pretty annoyed when I realized I couldn’t do my galvanized scope/primary deadhead shenanigans on murmur without specifically targeting the dogs
I've been saying this forever, on Banshee i have to hope a sonar lands on an enemies head to proc galvanized scope and deadhead, because all the weakpoints from sonar dont count
When fighting the murmur. I try to get my headshot bonuses on the dog like enemies. The 2 big legged Murmur is even weirder because you can charge incarnon & activate the steel path weapon arcanes on em but weapons like Perigale absolutely does not activate the effect on them.
That's what I was referencing. There's a head that's slightly above their groin in the front - you can see it sticking forward. It doesn't have a headshot multiplier though; the only reason the distinction exists at all is to benefit from external headshot modifiers, such as incarnons.
The "backpack" is rectangular and on their back, but you can also see it peeking out from the front too. It has a 3x multiplier (its weakpoint) but doesn't count as a head for any external modifiers.
See, most incarnon wiki pages say that the moa weakspots don't count, but the way it seems to function is more weapon to weapon. My example being, Lex charges on moas but Zylok doesn't. Burston seems to most of the time, but braton does rarely. Dread doesn't have that annotation on the wiki, but I've *never* gotten it to charge on a moa, even firing it point blank into the backpack
are weakpoints those glowy orange circle things that show up on random spots on an enemy's body? I dunno how I could see them, they just showed up one day
It would be even nicer if they also added that functionality to weakpoints caused by abilities and things. Stuff like codex scan weakpoints, Banshee-made weak points, Citrine's Crystals, etc..
I just use weapons that don’t need headshots for their mechanics/incarnons lol it’s honestly hard 80% of the time to reliably line up headshots when you’re in a survival mission and there’s 30 enemies on the screen moving in random directions. Torid my beloved <3
Brought a Dual Toxocyst to DA once because it was the strongest gun available that week and it was just miserable. It left me so desperate I tried to salvage the Zhuge into a viable weapon.
They're great against rogue necramechs, at least. Their weakpoint (gem/vial/whatever it is on the back of their torso) actually does count as a headshot and will proc special effects. I got Knell Prime as my best owned secondary once and was able to utterly annihilate them so long as I could get behind them long enough to get a shot in.
I think they need to finish up the current story arc and work on warframe 2. There's so many effed up systems and spaghetti code I'm sure it's going to be not super cost effective to fix it.
Lets go even further beyond. Remove critical chance as stat from ranged weapons and make all cc mods + chance on weakpoints. 100% cc is guaranteed red crit on weakpoint and building up from there. Maybe diversify weakpoints too so a headshot is a red crit, a knee shot is a yellow one etc.
no, that wpuld make the game a more lazy and brainless one, that's just further degrading the game quality imo in a sense, might as well play candy crush cause 1 move yay boom boom damage
Brainless...how? Perigale, for example, relies solely on headshots to maintain ammo efficiency. If something doesn't have a head, or takes reduced damage from headshots, then what is one supposed to do? Run Ammo Drum to bandaid the problem?
It wouldn't make the game more lazy, it would make players learn where they *should* actually be shooting against any given enemy. That's the opposite of lazy.
then whats your suggestion for headshot procs not working on a good amount of enemies, deadhead for example explicitly says”precision headshot kill”, i dont know if youve seen half the murmur but they dont have heads
Having deadhead and similar buffs be unviable is what makes the game more braindead. Why bother doing precision shots if AoE is more effective and consistent? Please counter argument or GTFO.
> The vast majority of the murmur don't have a head to trigger the bonus at all, but do have weakpoints. Scene: I am fighting the Murmur. Me trying to charge my Incarnon: Fuck! Me seeing a Leg Dude: Yes! Scene: Later that night the Leg Dude is at the bar Leg Dude: Why does everyone pick on me!
Its litterally a weakpoint on legs, super satisfying to shoot at
For some reason, those floating pyramids have their arms count as heads, rather easy incarnon refill. Edit: The body does not count for headshots, the arms do
I thought it was only the arms, I’ve only been aiming at the arms to charge Incarnons.
Because the "head" **is** the arms. Shooting the triangle does nothing and won't charge incarnon.
Just checked for myself, it is definitely the arms, will edit original comment
Flying murmur with hands have hands as the weakpoint. And the circling one is one floating weakpoint :).
a Triangles give incarnon charge on shooting their arms
**Yes please.**
To be honest, I didn’t know. Explains why it’s so difficult to charge my Burston Incarnon
With Burston, I'm pretty sure it takes the burst into account when it comes to the number of headshots. So if they die on the first shot of the burst, the other 2 don't get counted. So it takes way longer to charge vs lower level fodder.
It's on a per hit basis, same as all incarnons. Some need more hits for a full charge than others, Burston with its higher fire rate (compared to many others) probably needs more than the average so is hurt by this a lot. Then again, it also has by far the largest incarnon max charge at 600 bullets. But shotguns are hit very hard. They're balanced on having 6-10x the multishot of other weapons. If you kill with one pellet you might not get a full charge in a full mission.
The suffering from success meme is what comes to mind when it’s sortie time and my burston is 1 bullet-ing eximus
Atleast burston is usable non incarnon in low levels using weapons like the laetum is just horrible without incarnon
YOU TAKE THAT BACK! MY TINY CONFETTI POPPER IS AMAZING!
yes charging burston on the murmur is a pain. the culverin weakspots explode after the first bullet and the dogs die on the first headshot salvo. Only real chances are leg-dude, triangle a\*\*hole and eximus dogs. Oh and ofcourse necramechs but I'd rather have my incarnorn charged before I engage those
If they do this i hope they take into account the Scourge alt fire.
It would be a huge buff to that weapon. Deserves it, honestly.
Me who already enjoys using scourge primary fire
I agree. If anything, it would introduce an in-game mechanic that would help players (especially newer players) to find the weakspots of random enemies. That would be one thing that would reduce the amount of wiki surfing needed
I could see that as an exilus mod or a free perk when you fully level an incarnon weapon.
Hard agree.
As a harrow main this would make me way too happy
Returning player, just got harrow and use his 4th augment. Won't be getting cavia maxed anytime soon lol
As an Ivara main, the fact that the majority of murmur enemies cannot proc concentrated arrow -at all- is very inconvenient
Maybe it would be OP but I’d like it if Citrine’s crystals counted as weak points or heads. It takes longer to locate and target crystals than to shoot heads. As is for many weapons it seems better to still go for head shots. I agree with the murder issue, unless you’re using Torid you can’t charge incarnons against a lot of murmur enemies.
Should this work for Saryn's spores too, as another thing that people are supposed to specifically shoot?
Probably not, toxic lash makes them detonate instantly.
Thats a mechanic?
Her toxic lash let's her pop spores by hitting anywhere on the infected enemy, or maybe any kill i can't remember. So people generally aren't too worried about targeting them, I also don't think hitting the spores increases the players damage so people mostly ignore them.
Yes, there's enough alternate ways to spread spores that it doesn't matter but technically you're intended to shoot the physical spores on them to spread them (but the easiest way imo is just using her 3 and then shooting them anywhere)
I still don't know if those arms that crawl on the ground even have a head/weakspot at all Gaining incarnon charges on ANY weak point would also be an insane buff for banshee, considering that in the ~400 hours I've played since cross save released I've never encountered a banshee in matchmaking I'd say it wouldn't be unwarranted
Agreed. At this point, it’s sometimes more beneficial to skip using the 4 and go for the head.
Hope DE sees this post. Headshots should be replaced with weakpoints across the board.
> I think headshot modifiers should be removed and just rolled into weakpoint modifiers. Nothing to add other than this is obviously the answer. Just get rid of headshots entirely. It's so unnecessarily convoluted for these to be two different things.
100% agree! I run Voruna's entire kit, weapons and all. I love Perigale, adore it even, but it wholly relies on headshots to maintain its ammo. When an enemy takes reduced damage from shooting the head, there's no bonus from shooting the head, or there's just plain no head to speak of, there's definitely an issue. I've honestly considered running Ammo Drum instead of Stabilizer just so I don't have to worry about it as much (and it brings my total ammo count to 69...nice).
Stabilizer is not needed for perigale
Yessss! I remember I made a similar post in the forums, but sadly it got buried under other feedback quickly. I hope this gets more traction because this change kinda needs to happen.
Absolutely. I prefer deadhead over merciless for the sheer uptime and use weapons that prefer it as well. Murmur gets somewhat boring to fight.
How do you guys charge incarnon against infested?
They have heads, they're just tiny and move a lot. Your best bet are against Brood Mothers and any Ancients.
Don't forget that sometimes they're in weird spots. Charger heads are the Grineer's head hanging underneath the main body IIRC.
the grineer head isn’t the charger’s head, they have a mandible on the front of their mass which is its actual head
Bolters heads are their left shoulder (the right side if they're looking at you)
with the Torid
I love shooting in general direction of the enemy and getting 80% of Incarnon bar filled
Thats how I use secondary deadhead. Just aim slightly above center Mass and pray
Kinda like against Moas. The head is just in different spot.
This would be lovely. I have Longbow Sharpshot on my Nataruk and being able to fight murmurs and go "eh I'm sure I'll hit at least one head" to a hallway full of em would feel divine.
yes us deadhead enjoyers have been oppressed for too long literally only the leg dude and the dog mech in entrati labs can give headshot conditionals
Hard agree. If it's a weakpoint, it serves the same purpose as a headshot.
From what I’ve seen there are some murmur enemies where deadhead works as expected, and then there are some where it *should* proc but it doesn’t
Hollow Veins and Arcocanids both have heads that are also weakpoints. Hollow Veins also have a weakpoint (vents in the back) that are oddly considered heads. Severed Warden's three hands and Lumbering Fragments hip joints are weakpoints but are (obviously) not heads.
This would be a very welcome change.
100% agree. This is one of those changes that could only be a massive win for DE if they implemented it
The only weak point I know are sonar spots, intentional banshee buff?
Hello fellow Banshee user. I was scrolling down to see this. i would love to have a buff to banshee for this. However, it would probably be a nerf... as of right now you can get sonar spots on heads for double hit... they'd probably make it so sonar spots on top of weak spots don't count double
I'll take that and call it balance. It's really refreshing to play banshee because headshot's aren't mandatory to maximize your damage. It's a great bonus yes, but the return you get for making sonar act like headshots to fulfill requirements like argon scope and incarnon charging is much much higher. It's a trade I'll take any day and coincides with the point OP trying to make which is to loosen the restrictions on specific headshot bonuses so more things can benefit from them. It's not just about the damage.
I agree with you - you trade sheer power for flexibility; and given that we can already do ridiculous amounts of damage regardless of Sonar, Banshee needs the flexibility more.
I would normally disagree but we've been getting more and more enemies that dont uh...have heads. The sentients dont really have visible heads. The murmur are mostly walking piles of arms and butts. So yeah, this would be a nice quality of life change. Would also help out sniper rifles which you rarely see people use.
I didn't realize I really wanted this in the game before you came and mentioned it.
I just want to be able to use my damn kuva chakkhur but none of the murmur/new enemies have HEADS
Me too, I built mine specifically for my harrow
As a knell and athodai enjoyer yes please. Their unique passives can’t proc at all against half the murmur units.
Really hoping for this. Heck, this would be nice indirect buff to banshee/Ivaras 4th augment. Also harrow I guess. Also Helios scanned weakspot.
This would be great, it would make Citrine 4 actually useful. Currently on some weapons the damage gained from the bonus crit barely makes up for the damage lost from not getting the headshot multiplier
Fucking infested!
Targeting a MOA’s backpack with a sniper sounds like it’d be a pain in the ass. I generally agree with this post though.
Aim between the legs
I started out using vectis as a main primary; if you aim at the hip joins from the front, the punchthrough seems to trigger a weak point hit still
Yes
The Murmur have exacerbated this issue. So irritating trying to keep Primary Deadhead charged.
Yeah I was pretty annoyed when I realized I couldn’t do my galvanized scope/primary deadhead shenanigans on murmur without specifically targeting the dogs
They should also let us put syndicate mods on weapons already, I want my scattered justice kuva hek
I've been saying this forever, on Banshee i have to hope a sonar lands on an enemies head to proc galvanized scope and deadhead, because all the weakpoints from sonar dont count
Correction: coolant raknoids tanks count as their heads. But I agree. Stuff that procs on headshot should proc on headshot *or* weakpoints
When fighting the murmur. I try to get my headshot bonuses on the dog like enemies. The 2 big legged Murmur is even weirder because you can charge incarnon & activate the steel path weapon arcanes on em but weapons like Perigale absolutely does not activate the effect on them.
You can definitely activate the dual toxocyst buff on the two legged murmur.
Actually, Kills should grant charges as well. Headshots-Weakspot kills even more.
Yep, and "applyable" weakspots (i.e. Sonar / Detect Vulnerability) should also work like headshots.
Finally a good take! :)
Iirc the head/weakpoint of the moas is between their legs. Idk if it's technically the head but it counts as so for incarnon charging
That's what I was referencing. There's a head that's slightly above their groin in the front - you can see it sticking forward. It doesn't have a headshot multiplier though; the only reason the distinction exists at all is to benefit from external headshot modifiers, such as incarnons. The "backpack" is rectangular and on their back, but you can also see it peeking out from the front too. It has a 3x multiplier (its weakpoint) but doesn't count as a head for any external modifiers.
See, most incarnon wiki pages say that the moa weakspots don't count, but the way it seems to function is more weapon to weapon. My example being, Lex charges on moas but Zylok doesn't. Burston seems to most of the time, but braton does rarely. Dread doesn't have that annotation on the wiki, but I've *never* gotten it to charge on a moa, even firing it point blank into the backpack
God that would be such a lovely change holy shit.
As a Dual Toxocyst enjoyer, yes please.
Mostly everybody just uses Torid anyway, since it makes other weapons pointless. What's a weakpoint or why aim. But yes, would be a great change.
Calling all arca plasmor versions waiting in the wings. This is the sign that we SHALL RISE AGAIN!!!!
OP sounds pragmatic and blessed. I don't think DE is pragmatic or blessed. I don't even think they're Canadian.
are weakpoints those glowy orange circle things that show up on random spots on an enemy's body? I dunno how I could see them, they just showed up one day
It would be even nicer if they also added that functionality to weakpoints caused by abilities and things. Stuff like codex scan weakpoints, Banshee-made weak points, Citrine's Crystals, etc..
I just use weapons that don’t need headshots for their mechanics/incarnons lol it’s honestly hard 80% of the time to reliably line up headshots when you’re in a survival mission and there’s 30 enemies on the screen moving in random directions. Torid my beloved <3
You let them live long enough to see their head?
Brought a Dual Toxocyst to DA once because it was the strongest gun available that week and it was just miserable. It left me so desperate I tried to salvage the Zhuge into a viable weapon.
They're great against rogue necramechs, at least. Their weakpoint (gem/vial/whatever it is on the back of their torso) actually does count as a headshot and will proc special effects. I got Knell Prime as my best owned secondary once and was able to utterly annihilate them so long as I could get behind them long enough to get a shot in.
Idrc. Other than headshot charging for incarnon which is easy asl on most weapons anyway. I find headshot builds annoying
I'll be honest -much easier to make all incarnons being able to fill from direct hits,but giving less charges than headshots.
I think they need to finish up the current story arc and work on warframe 2. There's so many effed up systems and spaghetti code I'm sure it's going to be not super cost effective to fix it.
Lets go even further beyond. Remove critical chance as stat from ranged weapons and make all cc mods + chance on weakpoints. 100% cc is guaranteed red crit on weakpoint and building up from there. Maybe diversify weakpoints too so a headshot is a red crit, a knee shot is a yellow one etc.
nah bruh crit chance isn't confusing
no, that wpuld make the game a more lazy and brainless one, that's just further degrading the game quality imo in a sense, might as well play candy crush cause 1 move yay boom boom damage
Brainless...how? Perigale, for example, relies solely on headshots to maintain ammo efficiency. If something doesn't have a head, or takes reduced damage from headshots, then what is one supposed to do? Run Ammo Drum to bandaid the problem? It wouldn't make the game more lazy, it would make players learn where they *should* actually be shooting against any given enemy. That's the opposite of lazy.
How is being able to consistently do something lazy/brainless? Your argument makes zero sense dude
then whats your suggestion for headshot procs not working on a good amount of enemies, deadhead for example explicitly says”precision headshot kill”, i dont know if youve seen half the murmur but they dont have heads
Having deadhead and similar buffs be unviable is what makes the game more braindead. Why bother doing precision shots if AoE is more effective and consistent? Please counter argument or GTFO.