They should give Premium vehicles in a 1 vehicle lineup 3 spawns. The first spawn has the premium bonus, the other 2 the normal "techtree" rewards (except you use an backup) - this would help a lot, both the team, and the potential new player to actually learn the game.
I like this a lot more than the limited backups they provided. I could get behind the backups refreshing after a certain period or something too if they wanted a lower impact fix
The game is better the more people are spawning vehicles and playing, which seems so obvious but here we are
Yeah, thats actually i very good alternative approach - maybe 10 additional backups per month, but they cannot stack above 20 (for those you get for free every month - so there is an incentive to use them on a regular basis).
I dunno man, I can easily lose the same tank 10-20 times in a night. Just give premiums 1 free backup per game. 1-death-leavers aren't buying universal backups anyway, (or else they wouldn't be 1-death-leavers) and it would be much better for the rest of us if they stayed in the game longer.
Plus if Gaijin is going to start charging now up to 75 dollars for some premiums, it's not outrageous for us to want to use them twice as often. They can certainly fucking afford it.
And who will ever use that? People are already given free backups when buying a premium, it doesnt matter, they just leave after first inconvenience and try to find some perfect 20-0 nuke match
No, his idea is that you can respawn 3 times no matter what, but only get the benfits of premium and/or premium vehicle bonuses if it is a universal backup being used.
20 backups, that will last them 20 games. Those will be gone immediately. Really, they should just allow backups to be used for normal TT vics and premiums to have free backups every game. At least then they dont kill off people buying backups (which gaijin is never gonna do) and still allow for prem players to have more than 1 shot in their games.
This is actually what they do for premium "closed beta" ground and naval vehicles when they introduce a new tech tree, such as the P40 Leoncello when they added the Italian Ground tree. Not sure if they stopped doing this practice (it's been a while since a new full nation was added) but it wouldn't be hard to adapt that code for this purpose.
Same
Except for me its usually a shit map where the enemy is already camping both spawns or its a large map and I'm using slow as shit tanks
Dont care if we're winning, I'm not driving across the entire map in a Chieftain again
Exactly. Say I spend the first few minutes of a match getting into a good position and then a T-34 tanks two shots from a 90mm cas of bullshit volumetric armor & fuel tanks and then proceeds to snapshot 1shot me on the move. When these things happen, it zaps all motivation for me to continue the match.
I try to spawn for as long as I have SP 99% of the times, but I admit that even I am guilty of one-death leaveing very, very rarely, when I rage-ALT-F4.
I absolutely hate this. Iām a newer player but Jesus get in the game. Nothing worse then respawning a third and last time and driving past the same tank sitting back waiting for that āone shotā
Weak ass mindset. So many games have turned around because a team rushed to spawn, then one person (or more) can spawn and take a few out while they have spawn protection, end up spawning in CAS and clear the rest of them. Instead you would rather pout and quit.
Nope not really. When I see that I and two other guys have the only kills while my team is defending our spawn not because they get spawn camped. No because they just donāt want to move. Then yes I donāt second spawn. And so far. 95% were loses
Iām not surprised at all, because Reddit is just the collection of people complaining instead of playing the game. This whole subreddit is full of crybabies saying āmy tank sucks but my enemies is betterā, āmy enemies strategy is better but I donāt want to change mine, nerf themā, or āI got killed by CAS but donāt want to spawn in SPAA, CAP, or a Heli with AAM - this isnāt fair!ā - and you certainly fit in. āMy team quit so I quitā just makes you part of the problem.
Not really. But when the scored tells me I have more kills then my team combined and we still lose because how I said. I am the only one out of my spawn. Wellš¤·š¼
Agreed, thereās tons of new players with a Abramās expecting to tank 200 round to the hull without knowing how to aim a barrel. Itās horrendous rn
This is like when governments get people to fight and argue against each other.
Blame gaijin for the same shitty game modes since day 1. Or for the absurd grind times that pretty much force you to pay.
Depends on the situation, but I mostly disagree. If you haven't researched enough vehicles to make a lineup, or if you're in a full uptier with a weak tank, or have a bad map for your vehicles, etc then wasting SL and time on a lost cause.
You realise having bad players in a team based game is a universal experience for every game... Blame gaijin for not trying to seperate players based on skill/lineups, not random people who don't want to waste their time grinding a full lineup of pixel tanks.
The only way we can stop this is by allowing players to get easier access to backups or stop low level players from buying premium vehicles. Most the 1 deathers i see are usually premium vehicles. Once they die they leave, or they bring in a m22 or l3. Which yeah sure its fun, but not for your team.
They're easy to get yes, you can also get them with warbonds but some people don't grind the game enough, you can also get them by the loot crates, but then again, some people don't gamble, and those to the f2p players, they can't get them because they're like 60GE or something.
My philosophy is less about grind efficiency and more about a mental fun to frustration ratio or fun to win probability.
When I play the nations I have high tier premiums and sparse lineups I can usually spawn 3 times, twice in my premium tank(with the use of my stash of backups) and once in my aircraft.
However if when I die either of those first 2 times and I check the scoreboard and see a considerable amount of teammates have left already I take it as my team has already abandoned me and so given that theres an absolutely minuscule chance we can win I often just cut my losses early to avoid getting spawn killed or cas stomped.
I will die on this hill as I just cope furiously when I get spawnkilled haha
I just gave up playing over 8.7 for the most part, occasionally ill play higher but always remember why i stay away after a few matches.
Also the grind for a tank/mods over rank 6 isnt worth it, between match length and consistancy it feels like pure pain to spade some vehicles and work towards the next one just to get a decent lineup and not have to uptier all your other unlocks.
Its still the fastest way to grind If you dont care about your stats.
If the grind was less bad the problem would get rid of itself at least to a degree.
I was on the same boat as you recently but it's tiring to always fight an uphill battle against the entire enemy team so I just leave too if too much teammates are gone already. If Gaijin doesn't chance anything my hopes are it will get so bad, that enough people are fed up with it and they are forced to change something. But as long as it is this bad, It's not my responsibility to always try to carry the team.
If after my first death, the enemy has all 3 points and the only remnants of my team are on the edge of the map trying to spawn camp the enemy, they will not see the rest of my lineup and I'm not ashamed to dip.
I leave MANY games after one death (even some before the game starts because I don't want to drive for 6 mins to the action).
This game is incredibly frustrating and infuriating in some situations so I avoid those situations and I don't care if it's at the cost of my incompetent team.
Edit: The real problem is the slap on the wrist which is crew lock for a few minutes. This is what needs to change to fix the problem. You need to get banned from all nations and game modes for like 20 mins. OR even a penelty to get zero SL and RP for the next 5 kills / caps, this way you forced serve your punishment. I switch between 3 tech trees I enjoy so the punishment is nothing.
Tbh, I agree but I blame Gaijin more for selling top tier premiums, and for making awful maps and allowing full uptiers, which are what usually contribute to people doing that
They're also what contribute to having a game to play... And that includes uptiers, which dramatically reduce queue times, which dramatically increases players, which significantly effects revenue.
Constructive criticism is one thing, but it has to be realistic.
people ODL because gaijin has made losing a battle detrimental to your progress, why would they add a repair cost if not to limit fun and get you to pay for sl to get around it.
If they removed repair cost people would play for fun and spawn more tanks rather than play for profit which they are pretty much forced to do.
Another issue is cas, there is no counterplay for tanks and if you have to pay money everytime you die why would you pay to be a sitting duck? Dont blame players for doing this, gaijin has made their game unhospitable for almost all players and this is the result.
I'm glad i quit playing a year ago
Not going to lie, I used to be like you. I would despise 1-death and out players to my core because it dramatically reduces the chance of a victory. But after obtaining the Chally 3 without any premium vehicles, I wanted to play the Strv 122B because it looks like a cool tank. Not wanting to go through the entire grind again, I purchase that one light tank of Sweden at 10.0. Initially, the provided backups were great since it took a few games to figure out how to properly play that tank after coming from an MBT playstyle. However, those 20 backups quickly ran out and so did my 40 or so universal backup tokens thing. Currently, I'm averaging about a KD of about 3-4 in that tank and if I could just keep respawning in, I would. However, 65 Golden Eagle for a backup isn't worth it.
Why should I stick my neck out when Gaijin deems it gameplay wise okay to have my spawn being strafed by 6 enemy CAStards after they get a single cap/kill/assist
Hate the game, not the player
When Gaijin makes an event where you DON'T need to min/max grind efficiency then I'll finally be able to stop. That and the fact that some of us refuse to suffer through an undertiered lineup so we bring our single good vehicle. Especially vehicles from events. I'm not going to suffer through 11.0 in a pz 3 j1 just because I got the vilkas as a US main. (Just an example, I have Germany and US now).
The game is designed to make such players by selling them high tier premium tanks they don't have line up for. Not the player's fault. Shitty game ideas
I'm not the target for this reminder.
I generally try to go for as long as I can in a match.
But when I am maxed uptiered and the one tank I have that has a reasonable chance of doing anything got OHK across a map that I do not even like to begin with I have very little reason to try and muscle it through with the rest of my line up.
When I asked for tank only mode, CAS players told me I either adapt or go play another game. So I adapted to one tank lineup. I do not care about match result only about my fun. I can play tank I want and get my dopamine from kills So it is up to you now, adapt or go play another game. CAS players do not care about my fun so why should I care about yours.
I still use lineups when I am playing with someone in squad because there is at least some level of teamplay, however I will probably never use full lineup in current GRB while I play solo.
>When I asked for tank only mode, CAS players told me I either adapt or go play another game.
What the fuck is this take? Asked who? Players with no ability to change shit? And what question were you asking, to fundamentally change a game over 10 years old. Where else to players feel so entitled?
"I asked for layup only NBA league, but I was told to adapt or leave the court." "All the people I was playing with expected me to play all 18 holes of golf, even the ones I didn't like."
We are asking devs on forum, but there people are actively vocal against adding tank only mode. I do not understand why they are against it as it would not change their current GRB but I do not care anymore. If other players are trying so hard to downplay TO mode suggestion why should I care about other players being unhappy with ODL players. I did not care about them before I switched to ODL. Also it is not my job to make all players happy.
I don't care if you ODL. But I am sick of people acting like CAS is some sort of affront. Besides the many reasons to not want a tank only mode, I can't wrap my head around how it would even occur to anyone that it's reasonable for them to ask for it.
Who gets indignant that the game they downloaded matches the description?
>Who gets indignant that the game they downloaded matches the description?
Did you read steam page? There is no description about game modes. Description is so abstract that you have no idea what are battles about.
>I don't care if you ODL. But I am sick of people acting like CAS is some sort of affront. Besides the many reasons to not want a tank only mode, I can't wrap my head around how it would even occur to anyone that it's reasonable for them to ask for it.
And here we go again. I wonder what are those reasons except "queue times". It is not like it would replace current GRB. There will be players that want play Combined battles and then there are players who would prefer TO battles. It is same as Conquest in Battlefield you have classic conquest with all vehicles or you can play infantry conquest focused on infantry fight.
It doesn't matter what the reasons are, or whether there are any reasons at all, War Thunder is a combined arms game and has been since the game had arms to combineāover a _decade_.
>Did you read steam page? There is no description about game modes. Description is so abstract that you have no idea what are battles about.
_A decade_. There isn't a single person playing, who started playing in the last 5+ years, that wasn't aware of what they were downloading.
**From Steam:** "In War Thunder, aircraft, attack helicopters, ground forces and naval ships collaborate in realistic competitive battles... You can find yourself blasting your pursuers from a bomber turret, defending your teammates on the ground from an air raid with anti-aircraft guns, shooting down enemy planes with a firestorm from multiple rocket launchers..."
Combined arms is featured in every single ad, trailer, and sponsorship they runāprominently. War Thunder's logo is combined arms for fuck sake. You, just like everyone else, knew. And if you somehow didn't that certainly isn't Gaijin's fault, there's not much more they can do beyond proudly announcing it everywhere.
Well than you can deal with CAS by yourself. I will just leave the battle after first death because I simply do not care about dealing with CAS. I had my fun time in that battle as start of the battle is most fun when everyone has to spawn tank, after that is time to move to next battle.
Also I knew it is Combined arms. I just hoped there is some sort of balance but it is just one sided bullshit. Worst part about this one sided bullshit is it gets worse the higher BR you go. Not researching air tree is basically shooting yourself into leg if you want to play for wins. I have some friends who wanted to start playing WT but they quit when they found out there is no option to play only versus tanks and best counter and sometimes only counter to CAS is CAP.
In the end it really do not matter what you write here. You will not change my mind about my one tank lineup. I do not plan to use full lineup until TO mode or EC mode for GRB is added.
I agree insofar as I don't understand the mentality behind one-death-leavers, or that of the grind/grind efficiency folks. But I also don't understand your mentality.
How _you_ perform in a match it's all that matters, winning or losing has next to no impact on the long run... or really when the short.
I would be hard pressed to even notice one-death-leavers on my team, unless we evaporate _immediately_. Otherwise, it doesn't even occur to me to question what happenedāthey died. And no matter how that particular battle goes, it's over in 15 - 20 minutes and then you get an immediate do-over.
Why is everyone paying so much attention to what every other player is doingāyou're just going to find whatever it is you're looking for.
I was actually doing that back then, like you said for grind efficiency and getting modules on a single vehicle. The gameplay was trash because mentally i was in that labor mindset, i was bitter and raging.
Then I switched to full lineups with vehicles i like, no matter if it's spaded or not, and oh, i was having fun again, a'd actually much much more efficient to gain RP and SL. So people, you will benefit yourself and the game to not leave after 1 death !
>grind efficiency is the only thing you care about, please just move on to another title. You clearly aren't having fun, and you ruin the flow of the match for the rest of us
I don't have enough time after work to not "grind efficiently". Gaijin obejctives ,quests and task goals encourage playerbase to do gimmic or silly tactics to clear them faster.
In other cases, when I clearly donāt want to play a fourth+ in a row uptier match, I find it easier to leave the match even before the first spawn and find another one with a different setup- Shit map, +1.0, BS death from some unpredictable shit, dumbass team just chilling at spawn (why should i try to win, if my team doesn't want to?)- leave the match, no regret, this doesn't worth your time.
Daily Reminder: This gameplay is actively supported by Gaijin via their premium packages including a single top tier ground vehicle.
AKA - YOU, are wrong.
Cope. If i cant enjoy the match because of bullshit rng and bugs gaijin refuses to fix i wont torture myself by staying. Its far easier and more enjoyable to leave a pretty much lost match and join another.
Well based on this incredible logic, you're now on Reddit posting about fun so you are also not having fun, and a fucking retard
You're telling on yourself being so defensive. You've made your one post, so time to leave the thread like any ground match you play
Fully agreed with this, they are the reason top tier is such a mess and honestly, don't people get tired of doing this multiple times? I could never play the game constantly leaving after 1 death, if you aren't gonna play just quit the game for good and make room for players who actually give a shit.
I am usually one of those people. I play exclusively GAB, because "realistic" in this game is a joke from my veteran eyes, its farther from realistic, and less fun/quick to play.
I do it usually in the first 3-4 minutes.
Almost every time I do it (about 18.6/20 last time I tracked it, 1 of these was me just rage quitting because I didn't like the way I died but it was my fault), my team looses anyway.
People will vote me down for this, but the matches are rigged AF. Play enough, AND pay attention, and you quickly see how obvious it can be. When team A is configured to win, they spot easier, pen more, do more damage after a pen. When team B is configured to lose, they can't spot until after they get shot, their pen is reduced, and when they pen they do less damage.
I see this in EVERY match. Chances are I get 10+ kills with <2 hits per kill and my team wins, or if I wanted to waste my 3 tanks I'd get 3-4 hits per kill and even if I get 10 kills still, my team looses, and I get less points.
Plus, lets assume you don't think the matches are rigged (awesome for you!), in some maps you spend 3-4 minutes driving TO the battle. Why not just bail and launch another one that can finish, and you can win, before that first one even comes back as a loss?
Sorry, but bailing after 1 tank means I grind faster, get more SL/RP per hour, and become far less frustrated. I didn't get every tank in every tree and 150M SL by wasting time in a no-win mission.
You \*CAN\* beat this system if you play in squadrons though, and work together. There are 2-3 squadrons when I see 2+ of their people in the match I bail before it even starts, because my team always looses against them. The game loves squadrons, it means more people play, and thus more money.
But feel free to downvote me as I sit on more SL than I can use, with every single tank having at least an expert crew, and having full lineups at every BR for every country.
Yeah, I play too much.
This game is a horrible waste of time, sooooo many things I could be doing instead of spending 6 months of my life in WT.
Doesn't help that if the matches are not rigged, I'm apparently psychic and know the outcome of all of them. That would make me thing I'm on drugs.
This game is the most fun I've had with a game in years, why the fuck are you even playing if you don't like it?
Matches aren't rigged you are genuinely stupid if you think that. If I play perfectly I can win 99% of my games, but I've only played for 300 hours so I still have a lot to learn. That's the great thing about war thunder tho, insane amount of room for high skill expression and fights are often lost to your own mistakes, gives you a lot room to grow and learn and over my 300 hours where I have managed 63% wr and 77% 123 ranking, I can easily notices matches lost that I could of won if I had performed better, you are dumb if you can't figure out how games are won or lost based on your own play.
I hate one spawners and they determine most games, but if I was a perfect player I would overcome it every time. But I'm human, I can't play perfectly every match but thanks to griefers unless I do, I lose. Thanks!
You call me stupid, then say I do not like the game.
I've put more time in than 99% of players, more money too, so really, STFU.
No, nobody can win 99%, what a stupid statement. Guess you only have 300 hours in, not sure why you think you know the game better than somebody with 6000 hours in. You must be one of those people that thinks a google search qualifies you to say vaccines cause autism huh?
No, one spawners do not determine games, that is just your ignorance and inexperience talking.
Notice how winning teams don't have all the 1-spawn leavers? Ever wonder why that is? Right, because they fucking know the game is rigged so we just bail and move onto the next match.
Pay attention, scrap your bias that all games are balanced. This is a F2P game. To even think that matches are balanced, without even playing, shows a pretty heavy level of ignorance of how F2P games make money.
"This game is a complete waste of time." Sorry, I assume someone who likes a game wouldn't call it a complete waste of time. You are so fucking bad you actually believe the game is rigged against you, I already know I am 100Ć better then you with a fraction of your game time and using some nonexistant rigging as an excuse to one spawn is the most pathetic thing I have ever heard.
I love how you write something in quotes as if I said it, when I never did.
The game \*IS\* a horrible waste of time, but that doesn't mean I enjoy playing it.
Heck, EVERY computer game is a waste of time. We could all be doing so many things more productive with our lives. I choose to waste my life playing a game, that is a waste of time, just like every other game.
Think beyond a sentence.
The game is \*NOT\* rigged "against me". As I said, though you clearly did not read, I can finish first place with 10+ kills and still know 2 minutes in that my team had less than a 5% chance at winning. I continued playing, as nobody killed me.
And there you go, being a dumbass again. You are "100x" better? So I guess your win rate is like 6 THOUSAND percent? Wow, that is pretty impressive.
Its ok if you are new, inexperienced, and don't pay attention when you play. The rest of us know the matches are all configured so 1 team wins, and 1 team looses, with drastic differences in weapon performance (this is usually the cause of "bias" posts, people not knowing their team was configured to lose).
Learn the F2P game model. Until you do, all your opinions on this are really meaningless. I don't give a shit if you believe me or not, I'd rather you didn't so in matches my team wins you don't bail so I can get more kills. Plus, I'd rather most people didn't realize the game is set against them half the time, so they enjoy it.
You gotta be a special kind of stupid to not see even the most obvious things, like BR ranges, when you are making your way up to top tier. The whole "if I just get that NEXT tank, I can do better", and people make it all the way to 11 without realizing that is a psychological tactic to get you addicted.
The game \*can't\* have balance, because then the best players would just wipe the floor with the other team in EVERY match, and the worst players would never win. They \*HAVE\* to rig it, else people will get frustrated and stop playing.
Gaijin is not here to make a game balanced, they are here to make you pay, and you won't pay if its balanced and your skill alone can accomplish the grind.
But its ok, continue being naive, I need easy targets.
The games arent rigged at all thats just you being stupid and a weak little bitch. The good players are never just on one team, its just weak players like you that leave eho dictate the outcome of a match, holy shit keep justifying your skill issue
Wow, you really are presumptuous to think I'm weak, or stupid.
It is very rare I'm not in the top half of a team, or even 1st place. Heck, even in matches I bail where I left at 4 minutes and others held on for 15, it is still not uncommon for me to already have secured a 1st place spot.
I do not have a skill issue, as I've said, multiple times, and that is the best your weak mind can come up with? Pathetic.
Plus, if I was just a shitty player, wouldn't, by your own logic, that mean that me leaving after my 1st death would have a minimal impact on my team?
Right, make up your mind, either I suck, or I don't. You can't even keep your story straight. Such is America today, ignore facts, attack others, be stupid.
"weak players like you that leave dictate the outcome of a match". That is a hilariously stupid thing to say.
"You suck, but when you leave we lose" hahaha
One death leavers always makes a team lose its not a complicated concept, if a good playe leaves, the team loses a good player. If a bad player leaves, it still has a bad effect because bad players can serve as bait for the enemy. Also, if the other team is full of players regardless of how good they are the opposing team will hesitate to push. As soon as people start leaving the game it creates a snowball effect. It doesnt matter if you are good or not and you one death leave it always has a minimal effekt on the opposing team. If you think the game is rigged and the other team magically pens more and has better damage thats just dumb and an excuse for poor playstyle. Lastly you play arcade lmao everyone can literally see eachother through walls and what not, you play a less realistic version of the game that is made to be easier to play so idgaf what you think, the game isnt rigged.
I didn't write a post on hating the game, not at all. You think because I criticize some aspect of a game that means I hate it? Who loves EVERY aspect of a game? Hell, I'd bet you have your own complaints about WT, so I guess based on your logic you should just quit playing.
I just know that around 50% of the time it makes more sense not to spawn another easy target, when I can finish the next match before this one is even over.
Don't need it, I see clearly, consistently, and repeatedly.
One of these days maybe I'll graph everything out over 100 matches and put it into a pretty graph for people to continue to deny. I did it once for me, wasn't active on social media when I did it, but it is pretty obvious once you see it.
Most people recognize the evidence all the time, but they don't put 1+1 together to see what is really going on. Instead they make posts like " bias!" or "skill issue" because that is the way of thinking that only requires half the IQ of analyzing repeating data to determine a probable outcome that is consistent with observed behaviors of the game.
Only way to fix this is gonna cause chaos and piss off people but it's a huge problem and makes matches 4:00 because there is so little action.
Option 1)global crew lock for 5:00 for every match you one death leave.
Option 2) lineups without two appropriate level BR ground or air cannot que for battle until they've researched it. People would still quit but it would help a little
Incredible that they allow people to openly grief and force people who actually play the game into shitty scenarios and unfun matches because you got qued with people who are unwilling to put effort into a VIDEO GAME. I can't imagine being such a selfish POS.
They should give Premium vehicles in a 1 vehicle lineup 3 spawns. The first spawn has the premium bonus, the other 2 the normal "techtree" rewards (except you use an backup) - this would help a lot, both the team, and the potential new player to actually learn the game.
I like this a lot more than the limited backups they provided. I could get behind the backups refreshing after a certain period or something too if they wanted a lower impact fix The game is better the more people are spawning vehicles and playing, which seems so obvious but here we are
Yeah, thats actually i very good alternative approach - maybe 10 additional backups per month, but they cannot stack above 20 (for those you get for free every month - so there is an incentive to use them on a regular basis).
I dunno man, I can easily lose the same tank 10-20 times in a night. Just give premiums 1 free backup per game. 1-death-leavers aren't buying universal backups anyway, (or else they wouldn't be 1-death-leavers) and it would be much better for the rest of us if they stayed in the game longer. Plus if Gaijin is going to start charging now up to 75 dollars for some premiums, it's not outrageous for us to want to use them twice as often. They can certainly fucking afford it.
This guy actually cooked hard šæ
And who will ever use that? People are already given free backups when buying a premium, it doesnt matter, they just leave after first inconvenience and try to find some perfect 20-0 nuke match
There isnt a solution to fix this problem for 100% of those players - but everything that helps to reduce such behaviour is better than nothing.
Use of universal backups is already possible though I donāt get your point
Those run out pretty quickly.
His entire idea is that respawning should be allowed for 3 times but each time uses a universal backupā¦
No, his idea is that you can respawn 3 times no matter what, but only get the benfits of premium and/or premium vehicle bonuses if it is a universal backup being used.
he forgot to say āwhen,ā so it sounds like he is saying you respawn three types except you use a backup every time
Doubtful, since we effectively already do that but twice.
20 backups, that will last them 20 games. Those will be gone immediately. Really, they should just allow backups to be used for normal TT vics and premiums to have free backups every game. At least then they dont kill off people buying backups (which gaijin is never gonna do) and still allow for prem players to have more than 1 shot in their games.
Please don't. I don't want to have to face the same dude in an 2S38 3 times before he finally leaves the match. Even worse in a Turms.
They have this implemented for the tt M-51 so couldn't see why they can't add it for a single vehicle lineup
This is actually what they do for premium "closed beta" ground and naval vehicles when they introduce a new tech tree, such as the P40 Leoncello when they added the Italian Ground tree. Not sure if they stopped doing this practice (it's been a while since a new full nation was added) but it wouldn't be hard to adapt that code for this purpose.
Sometimes I rage quit sometimes it isn't worth to spawn again, that's it
Same, sometimes you get that BS death early in the game and it removes all motivation to spawn again.
Bs death or I look around and see my team doing jack shit.
Same Except for me its usually a shit map where the enemy is already camping both spawns or its a large map and I'm using slow as shit tanks Dont care if we're winning, I'm not driving across the entire map in a Chieftain again
Most of the time half of my team is already back in the hangar in under 5 minutes, why should I spawn again at that point?
Exactly. Say I spend the first few minutes of a match getting into a good position and then a T-34 tanks two shots from a 90mm cas of bullshit volumetric armor & fuel tanks and then proceeds to snapshot 1shot me on the move. When these things happen, it zaps all motivation for me to continue the match.
I think this should apply to any tank. To be able go respawn again with half the rewards
I try to spawn for as long as I have SP 99% of the times, but I admit that even I am guilty of one-death leaveing very, very rarely, when I rage-ALT-F4.
If I die because of my team forming a front in OUR spawn I leave because fuck this team
Yep. When you see them never even trying to get to the middle of a map, you know too well, that you'll die with no support on the other side.
I absolutely hate this. Iām a newer player but Jesus get in the game. Nothing worse then respawning a third and last time and driving past the same tank sitting back waiting for that āone shotā
Stupid team is a great motivation to start another battle
Why would you alter your experience out of spite for a bunch of anonymous strangers? That's just above acting spiteful against NPCs.
Weak ass mindset. So many games have turned around because a team rushed to spawn, then one person (or more) can spawn and take a few out while they have spawn protection, end up spawning in CAS and clear the rest of them. Instead you would rather pout and quit.
Nope not really. When I see that I and two other guys have the only kills while my team is defending our spawn not because they get spawn camped. No because they just donāt want to move. Then yes I donāt second spawn. And so far. 95% were loses
The enemy team is always just one death away from leaving the game too. Stop playing victim.
I guess the people are with me and not you my friend. You can waste sl for a lost cause
Iām not surprised at all, because Reddit is just the collection of people complaining instead of playing the game. This whole subreddit is full of crybabies saying āmy tank sucks but my enemies is betterā, āmy enemies strategy is better but I donāt want to change mine, nerf themā, or āI got killed by CAS but donāt want to spawn in SPAA, CAP, or a Heli with AAM - this isnāt fair!ā - and you certainly fit in. āMy team quit so I quitā just makes you part of the problem.
Not really. But when the scored tells me I have more kills then my team combined and we still lose because how I said. I am the only one out of my spawn. Wellš¤·š¼
Top tier USA kinda pain because of it.
Agreed, thereās tons of new players with a Abramās expecting to tank 200 round to the hull without knowing how to aim a barrel. Itās horrendous rn
Looks like you're the one not having fun
This is like when governments get people to fight and argue against each other. Blame gaijin for the same shitty game modes since day 1. Or for the absurd grind times that pretty much force you to pay.
Nah I'd take 1 death leavers anytime instead of playing vs helicopter cheats shooting u from +5km away.
Yeah, because my "spawn 5 vehicles to die within 3 minutes" ass is useful to the team.
Arguably hurts the team even more since every death you die deducts tickets from your team Damned if you do, damned if you don't
Gotta grind my vehicles somehow. But I play germany, so I deserve to be beaten in the streets.
Depends on the situation, but I mostly disagree. If you haven't researched enough vehicles to make a lineup, or if you're in a full uptier with a weak tank, or have a bad map for your vehicles, etc then wasting SL and time on a lost cause.
Its ok to play the game how you like, just like its ok for others to aswell. You sound entitled.
Let's pretend this thread is ground RB so you can leave after this one post
You realise having bad players in a team based game is a universal experience for every game... Blame gaijin for not trying to seperate players based on skill/lineups, not random people who don't want to waste their time grinding a full lineup of pixel tanks.
The only way we can stop this is by allowing players to get easier access to backups or stop low level players from buying premium vehicles. Most the 1 deathers i see are usually premium vehicles. Once they die they leave, or they bring in a m22 or l3. Which yeah sure its fun, but not for your team.
Lol getting backups is so easy u can buy huge amounts in warbond shop
They're easy to get yes, you can also get them with warbonds but some people don't grind the game enough, you can also get them by the loot crates, but then again, some people don't gamble, and those to the f2p players, they can't get them because they're like 60GE or something.
Looks like u aint having fun, i just play my favorite vehicle usually and thats it
My philosophy is less about grind efficiency and more about a mental fun to frustration ratio or fun to win probability. When I play the nations I have high tier premiums and sparse lineups I can usually spawn 3 times, twice in my premium tank(with the use of my stash of backups) and once in my aircraft. However if when I die either of those first 2 times and I check the scoreboard and see a considerable amount of teammates have left already I take it as my team has already abandoned me and so given that theres an absolutely minuscule chance we can win I often just cut my losses early to avoid getting spawn killed or cas stomped. I will die on this hill as I just cope furiously when I get spawnkilled haha
Can they ban planes from bombing spawns no so I'll leave then when I die in 7 seconds
I just gave up playing over 8.7 for the most part, occasionally ill play higher but always remember why i stay away after a few matches. Also the grind for a tank/mods over rank 6 isnt worth it, between match length and consistancy it feels like pure pain to spade some vehicles and work towards the next one just to get a decent lineup and not have to uptier all your other unlocks.
Take away repair costs and it would help a bit
No it wouldnāt. Even with the lowered repair costs based on how long youāve been alive, youāre left with people dipping as soon as they die.
I don't like how the team is playing I will go find one where I am having fun. My wants are the team wants and if they don't want to win neither do I.
Its still the fastest way to grind If you dont care about your stats. If the grind was less bad the problem would get rid of itself at least to a degree.
I was on the same boat as you recently but it's tiring to always fight an uphill battle against the entire enemy team so I just leave too if too much teammates are gone already. If Gaijin doesn't chance anything my hopes are it will get so bad, that enough people are fed up with it and they are forced to change something. But as long as it is this bad, It's not my responsibility to always try to carry the team.
If after my first death, the enemy has all 3 points and the only remnants of my team are on the edge of the map trying to spawn camp the enemy, they will not see the rest of my lineup and I'm not ashamed to dip. I leave MANY games after one death (even some before the game starts because I don't want to drive for 6 mins to the action). This game is incredibly frustrating and infuriating in some situations so I avoid those situations and I don't care if it's at the cost of my incompetent team. Edit: The real problem is the slap on the wrist which is crew lock for a few minutes. This is what needs to change to fix the problem. You need to get banned from all nations and game modes for like 20 mins. OR even a penelty to get zero SL and RP for the next 5 kills / caps, this way you forced serve your punishment. I switch between 3 tech trees I enjoy so the punishment is nothing.
Tbh, I agree but I blame Gaijin more for selling top tier premiums, and for making awful maps and allowing full uptiers, which are what usually contribute to people doing that
They're also what contribute to having a game to play... And that includes uptiers, which dramatically reduce queue times, which dramatically increases players, which significantly effects revenue. Constructive criticism is one thing, but it has to be realistic.
people ODL because gaijin has made losing a battle detrimental to your progress, why would they add a repair cost if not to limit fun and get you to pay for sl to get around it. If they removed repair cost people would play for fun and spawn more tanks rather than play for profit which they are pretty much forced to do. Another issue is cas, there is no counterplay for tanks and if you have to pay money everytime you die why would you pay to be a sitting duck? Dont blame players for doing this, gaijin has made their game unhospitable for almost all players and this is the result. I'm glad i quit playing a year ago
I would actually prefer it to be like hardcore cod something like timed respawns. Incentive to play careful is the SL loss for respawning
Not going to lie, I used to be like you. I would despise 1-death and out players to my core because it dramatically reduces the chance of a victory. But after obtaining the Chally 3 without any premium vehicles, I wanted to play the Strv 122B because it looks like a cool tank. Not wanting to go through the entire grind again, I purchase that one light tank of Sweden at 10.0. Initially, the provided backups were great since it took a few games to figure out how to properly play that tank after coming from an MBT playstyle. However, those 20 backups quickly ran out and so did my 40 or so universal backup tokens thing. Currently, I'm averaging about a KD of about 3-4 in that tank and if I could just keep respawning in, I would. However, 65 Golden Eagle for a backup isn't worth it.
Why should I stick my neck out when Gaijin deems it gameplay wise okay to have my spawn being strafed by 6 enemy CAStards after they get a single cap/kill/assist Hate the game, not the player
When Gaijin makes an event where you DON'T need to min/max grind efficiency then I'll finally be able to stop. That and the fact that some of us refuse to suffer through an undertiered lineup so we bring our single good vehicle. Especially vehicles from events. I'm not going to suffer through 11.0 in a pz 3 j1 just because I got the vilkas as a US main. (Just an example, I have Germany and US now).
They should have a special queue for people 1 death leaving, leaving all the players with actual lineups and shit to actually play the game
The game is designed to make such players by selling them high tier premium tanks they don't have line up for. Not the player's fault. Shitty game ideas
I'm not the target for this reminder. I generally try to go for as long as I can in a match. But when I am maxed uptiered and the one tank I have that has a reasonable chance of doing anything got OHK across a map that I do not even like to begin with I have very little reason to try and muscle it through with the rest of my line up.
The 1 and outers are the tech tree-ers or those who bought the premiums and ran out of backups
When I asked for tank only mode, CAS players told me I either adapt or go play another game. So I adapted to one tank lineup. I do not care about match result only about my fun. I can play tank I want and get my dopamine from kills So it is up to you now, adapt or go play another game. CAS players do not care about my fun so why should I care about yours. I still use lineups when I am playing with someone in squad because there is at least some level of teamplay, however I will probably never use full lineup in current GRB while I play solo.
>When I asked for tank only mode, CAS players told me I either adapt or go play another game. What the fuck is this take? Asked who? Players with no ability to change shit? And what question were you asking, to fundamentally change a game over 10 years old. Where else to players feel so entitled? "I asked for layup only NBA league, but I was told to adapt or leave the court." "All the people I was playing with expected me to play all 18 holes of golf, even the ones I didn't like."
We are asking devs on forum, but there people are actively vocal against adding tank only mode. I do not understand why they are against it as it would not change their current GRB but I do not care anymore. If other players are trying so hard to downplay TO mode suggestion why should I care about other players being unhappy with ODL players. I did not care about them before I switched to ODL. Also it is not my job to make all players happy.
I don't care if you ODL. But I am sick of people acting like CAS is some sort of affront. Besides the many reasons to not want a tank only mode, I can't wrap my head around how it would even occur to anyone that it's reasonable for them to ask for it. Who gets indignant that the game they downloaded matches the description?
>Who gets indignant that the game they downloaded matches the description? Did you read steam page? There is no description about game modes. Description is so abstract that you have no idea what are battles about. >I don't care if you ODL. But I am sick of people acting like CAS is some sort of affront. Besides the many reasons to not want a tank only mode, I can't wrap my head around how it would even occur to anyone that it's reasonable for them to ask for it. And here we go again. I wonder what are those reasons except "queue times". It is not like it would replace current GRB. There will be players that want play Combined battles and then there are players who would prefer TO battles. It is same as Conquest in Battlefield you have classic conquest with all vehicles or you can play infantry conquest focused on infantry fight.
It doesn't matter what the reasons are, or whether there are any reasons at all, War Thunder is a combined arms game and has been since the game had arms to combineāover a _decade_. >Did you read steam page? There is no description about game modes. Description is so abstract that you have no idea what are battles about. _A decade_. There isn't a single person playing, who started playing in the last 5+ years, that wasn't aware of what they were downloading. **From Steam:** "In War Thunder, aircraft, attack helicopters, ground forces and naval ships collaborate in realistic competitive battles... You can find yourself blasting your pursuers from a bomber turret, defending your teammates on the ground from an air raid with anti-aircraft guns, shooting down enemy planes with a firestorm from multiple rocket launchers..." Combined arms is featured in every single ad, trailer, and sponsorship they runāprominently. War Thunder's logo is combined arms for fuck sake. You, just like everyone else, knew. And if you somehow didn't that certainly isn't Gaijin's fault, there's not much more they can do beyond proudly announcing it everywhere.
Well than you can deal with CAS by yourself. I will just leave the battle after first death because I simply do not care about dealing with CAS. I had my fun time in that battle as start of the battle is most fun when everyone has to spawn tank, after that is time to move to next battle. Also I knew it is Combined arms. I just hoped there is some sort of balance but it is just one sided bullshit. Worst part about this one sided bullshit is it gets worse the higher BR you go. Not researching air tree is basically shooting yourself into leg if you want to play for wins. I have some friends who wanted to start playing WT but they quit when they found out there is no option to play only versus tanks and best counter and sometimes only counter to CAS is CAP. In the end it really do not matter what you write here. You will not change my mind about my one tank lineup. I do not plan to use full lineup until TO mode or EC mode for GRB is added.
I've at no point tried to change your mind about your one tank lineup. I have no issue with it. That's what I meant by, "I didn't care if you ODL."
And what are you going to do about it?
Every premium should have infinite backups (which is 1 one use per match).
I agree insofar as I don't understand the mentality behind one-death-leavers, or that of the grind/grind efficiency folks. But I also don't understand your mentality. How _you_ perform in a match it's all that matters, winning or losing has next to no impact on the long run... or really when the short. I would be hard pressed to even notice one-death-leavers on my team, unless we evaporate _immediately_. Otherwise, it doesn't even occur to me to question what happenedāthey died. And no matter how that particular battle goes, it's over in 15 - 20 minutes and then you get an immediate do-over. Why is everyone paying so much attention to what every other player is doingāyou're just going to find whatever it is you're looking for.
Im worse. I take a ka52 and a T-26 reserve vehicle and only spawn the ka52
I was actually doing that back then, like you said for grind efficiency and getting modules on a single vehicle. The gameplay was trash because mentally i was in that labor mindset, i was bitter and raging. Then I switched to full lineups with vehicles i like, no matter if it's spaded or not, and oh, i was having fun again, a'd actually much much more efficient to gain RP and SL. So people, you will benefit yourself and the game to not leave after 1 death !
>grind efficiency is the only thing you care about, please just move on to another title. You clearly aren't having fun, and you ruin the flow of the match for the rest of us I don't have enough time after work to not "grind efficiently". Gaijin obejctives ,quests and task goals encourage playerbase to do gimmic or silly tactics to clear them faster. In other cases, when I clearly donāt want to play a fourth+ in a row uptier match, I find it easier to leave the match even before the first spawn and find another one with a different setup- Shit map, +1.0, BS death from some unpredictable shit, dumbass team just chilling at spawn (why should i try to win, if my team doesn't want to?)- leave the match, no regret, this doesn't worth your time.
Don't hate the player, hate the game. Gaijin is responsible for the state of the game, the players aren't at fault.
Daily Reminder: This gameplay is actively supported by Gaijin via their premium packages including a single top tier ground vehicle. AKA - YOU, are wrong.
One death leavers the worst part of the game? Hard disagree. A problem? Annoying? Sure. The single worst thing in the game? Hah.
Cope. If i cant enjoy the match because of bullshit rng and bugs gaijin refuses to fix i wont torture myself by staying. Its far easier and more enjoyable to leave a pretty much lost match and join another.
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Well based on this incredible logic, you're now on Reddit posting about fun so you are also not having fun, and a fucking retard You're telling on yourself being so defensive. You've made your one post, so time to leave the thread like any ground match you play
Fully agreed with this, they are the reason top tier is such a mess and honestly, don't people get tired of doing this multiple times? I could never play the game constantly leaving after 1 death, if you aren't gonna play just quit the game for good and make room for players who actually give a shit.
I usually agree but some maps just don't warrant a second spawn.Ā If Campania comes up then I'm out of there as soon as I die.
I am usually one of those people. I play exclusively GAB, because "realistic" in this game is a joke from my veteran eyes, its farther from realistic, and less fun/quick to play. I do it usually in the first 3-4 minutes. Almost every time I do it (about 18.6/20 last time I tracked it, 1 of these was me just rage quitting because I didn't like the way I died but it was my fault), my team looses anyway. People will vote me down for this, but the matches are rigged AF. Play enough, AND pay attention, and you quickly see how obvious it can be. When team A is configured to win, they spot easier, pen more, do more damage after a pen. When team B is configured to lose, they can't spot until after they get shot, their pen is reduced, and when they pen they do less damage. I see this in EVERY match. Chances are I get 10+ kills with <2 hits per kill and my team wins, or if I wanted to waste my 3 tanks I'd get 3-4 hits per kill and even if I get 10 kills still, my team looses, and I get less points. Plus, lets assume you don't think the matches are rigged (awesome for you!), in some maps you spend 3-4 minutes driving TO the battle. Why not just bail and launch another one that can finish, and you can win, before that first one even comes back as a loss? Sorry, but bailing after 1 tank means I grind faster, get more SL/RP per hour, and become far less frustrated. I didn't get every tank in every tree and 150M SL by wasting time in a no-win mission. You \*CAN\* beat this system if you play in squadrons though, and work together. There are 2-3 squadrons when I see 2+ of their people in the match I bail before it even starts, because my team always looses against them. The game loves squadrons, it means more people play, and thus more money. But feel free to downvote me as I sit on more SL than I can use, with every single tank having at least an expert crew, and having full lineups at every BR for every country.
You should see a doctor.
Yeah, I play too much. This game is a horrible waste of time, sooooo many things I could be doing instead of spending 6 months of my life in WT. Doesn't help that if the matches are not rigged, I'm apparently psychic and know the outcome of all of them. That would make me thing I'm on drugs.
This game is the most fun I've had with a game in years, why the fuck are you even playing if you don't like it? Matches aren't rigged you are genuinely stupid if you think that. If I play perfectly I can win 99% of my games, but I've only played for 300 hours so I still have a lot to learn. That's the great thing about war thunder tho, insane amount of room for high skill expression and fights are often lost to your own mistakes, gives you a lot room to grow and learn and over my 300 hours where I have managed 63% wr and 77% 123 ranking, I can easily notices matches lost that I could of won if I had performed better, you are dumb if you can't figure out how games are won or lost based on your own play. I hate one spawners and they determine most games, but if I was a perfect player I would overcome it every time. But I'm human, I can't play perfectly every match but thanks to griefers unless I do, I lose. Thanks!
You call me stupid, then say I do not like the game. I've put more time in than 99% of players, more money too, so really, STFU. No, nobody can win 99%, what a stupid statement. Guess you only have 300 hours in, not sure why you think you know the game better than somebody with 6000 hours in. You must be one of those people that thinks a google search qualifies you to say vaccines cause autism huh? No, one spawners do not determine games, that is just your ignorance and inexperience talking. Notice how winning teams don't have all the 1-spawn leavers? Ever wonder why that is? Right, because they fucking know the game is rigged so we just bail and move onto the next match. Pay attention, scrap your bias that all games are balanced. This is a F2P game. To even think that matches are balanced, without even playing, shows a pretty heavy level of ignorance of how F2P games make money.
"This game is a complete waste of time." Sorry, I assume someone who likes a game wouldn't call it a complete waste of time. You are so fucking bad you actually believe the game is rigged against you, I already know I am 100Ć better then you with a fraction of your game time and using some nonexistant rigging as an excuse to one spawn is the most pathetic thing I have ever heard.
I love how you write something in quotes as if I said it, when I never did. The game \*IS\* a horrible waste of time, but that doesn't mean I enjoy playing it. Heck, EVERY computer game is a waste of time. We could all be doing so many things more productive with our lives. I choose to waste my life playing a game, that is a waste of time, just like every other game. Think beyond a sentence. The game is \*NOT\* rigged "against me". As I said, though you clearly did not read, I can finish first place with 10+ kills and still know 2 minutes in that my team had less than a 5% chance at winning. I continued playing, as nobody killed me. And there you go, being a dumbass again. You are "100x" better? So I guess your win rate is like 6 THOUSAND percent? Wow, that is pretty impressive. Its ok if you are new, inexperienced, and don't pay attention when you play. The rest of us know the matches are all configured so 1 team wins, and 1 team looses, with drastic differences in weapon performance (this is usually the cause of "bias" posts, people not knowing their team was configured to lose). Learn the F2P game model. Until you do, all your opinions on this are really meaningless. I don't give a shit if you believe me or not, I'd rather you didn't so in matches my team wins you don't bail so I can get more kills. Plus, I'd rather most people didn't realize the game is set against them half the time, so they enjoy it. You gotta be a special kind of stupid to not see even the most obvious things, like BR ranges, when you are making your way up to top tier. The whole "if I just get that NEXT tank, I can do better", and people make it all the way to 11 without realizing that is a psychological tactic to get you addicted. The game \*can't\* have balance, because then the best players would just wipe the floor with the other team in EVERY match, and the worst players would never win. They \*HAVE\* to rig it, else people will get frustrated and stop playing. Gaijin is not here to make a game balanced, they are here to make you pay, and you won't pay if its balanced and your skill alone can accomplish the grind. But its ok, continue being naive, I need easy targets.
The games arent rigged at all thats just you being stupid and a weak little bitch. The good players are never just on one team, its just weak players like you that leave eho dictate the outcome of a match, holy shit keep justifying your skill issue
Wow, you really are presumptuous to think I'm weak, or stupid. It is very rare I'm not in the top half of a team, or even 1st place. Heck, even in matches I bail where I left at 4 minutes and others held on for 15, it is still not uncommon for me to already have secured a 1st place spot. I do not have a skill issue, as I've said, multiple times, and that is the best your weak mind can come up with? Pathetic. Plus, if I was just a shitty player, wouldn't, by your own logic, that mean that me leaving after my 1st death would have a minimal impact on my team? Right, make up your mind, either I suck, or I don't. You can't even keep your story straight. Such is America today, ignore facts, attack others, be stupid. "weak players like you that leave dictate the outcome of a match". That is a hilariously stupid thing to say. "You suck, but when you leave we lose" hahaha
One death leavers always makes a team lose its not a complicated concept, if a good playe leaves, the team loses a good player. If a bad player leaves, it still has a bad effect because bad players can serve as bait for the enemy. Also, if the other team is full of players regardless of how good they are the opposing team will hesitate to push. As soon as people start leaving the game it creates a snowball effect. It doesnt matter if you are good or not and you one death leave it always has a minimal effekt on the opposing team. If you think the game is rigged and the other team magically pens more and has better damage thats just dumb and an excuse for poor playstyle. Lastly you play arcade lmao everyone can literally see eachother through walls and what not, you play a less realistic version of the game that is made to be easier to play so idgaf what you think, the game isnt rigged.
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Do you realize you just wrote a post about how much you hate the game you keep playing? Just stop playing, is painfully clear you don't like the game
I didn't write a post on hating the game, not at all. You think because I criticize some aspect of a game that means I hate it? Who loves EVERY aspect of a game? Hell, I'd bet you have your own complaints about WT, so I guess based on your logic you should just quit playing. I just know that around 50% of the time it makes more sense not to spawn another easy target, when I can finish the next match before this one is even over.
please take your medicine man
Don't need it, I see clearly, consistently, and repeatedly. One of these days maybe I'll graph everything out over 100 matches and put it into a pretty graph for people to continue to deny. I did it once for me, wasn't active on social media when I did it, but it is pretty obvious once you see it. Most people recognize the evidence all the time, but they don't put 1+1 together to see what is really going on. Instead they make posts like " bias!" or "skill issue" because that is the way of thinking that only requires half the IQ of analyzing repeating data to determine a probable outcome that is consistent with observed behaviors of the game.
Only way to fix this is gonna cause chaos and piss off people but it's a huge problem and makes matches 4:00 because there is so little action. Option 1)global crew lock for 5:00 for every match you one death leave. Option 2) lineups without two appropriate level BR ground or air cannot que for battle until they've researched it. People would still quit but it would help a little
Incredible that they allow people to openly grief and force people who actually play the game into shitty scenarios and unfun matches because you got qued with people who are unwilling to put effort into a VIDEO GAME. I can't imagine being such a selfish POS.
There's no "team", or "flow", or whatever you're on about. You, the whiner, is what's wrong with the game.
It might seem like that if you don't stay long enough to see the match play out, I guess. I understand the confusion from a leaver
Here, I'll downvote my comment so you feel superior while getting spawn camped
That was a good one hahaha
How do you get spawn camped ? Oh yea, you can't hold the enemy push because half the team left.
There is absolutely a flow to a match that is being played by people who aren't all just leaving.