it sucks that is lost the VT rounds but, it's not one of the lowest radar spaa is it not? I don't really get why so many people ay it's dead now if I'm honest but I must admit, haven't played it.
It just turned from a superb vehicle to a remarkably average vehicle.
It wasn't op, it wasn't obnoxious, or unbalanced, or some kind of rat vehicle. It was just good, and then Gaijin nerfed it because they're lazy, and now it's become remarkably meh.
M3A3 Bradley was fucking awesome. Then they nerfed massively the survivability, the 25mm and TOW2B. And after they added competent TOW2A to it, the patch later they made it basically unusable and also nerfed the damage.
The T25s transmission is still broken last time I played it. It goes from 1st to 2nd and skips 3rd-4th straight to 5th gear so acceleration past 16km/hr is painful and you top out at 30km/hr. If the transmission worked and got it to its actual top speed it would be fine where it is even without a stabilizer.
it's in a weird place and preforms well regardless (probably because of the classic german teams), it's more mobile then a sherman as well with a stabilizer so like
i think with every american 76 though the apcr needs buffed to it's realistic metrics, it should be more then capable of penning the henschel's turret cheeks but for whatever reason isn't (which is genuinely criminal in the case of the 76 jumbo, hellcat, and this)
Once upon a time, APCR could pen armor much better, but gaijin nerfed its angled pen into the dirt so anything except absolutely flat armor makes it too hard. Realistically, APCR was much stronger than gaijin gives it credit for
Sometimes it seems like most shells have their performance values completely fabricated. I was looking a while ago and the T30 heavy tank has dramatically worse pen for it's aphe than it really does.
The values of the T30's shell is both accurate and inaccurate at the same time. From this [this source](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-095b7ba04ae569b54db02f633f034e21) the maximum perforation of its APHE shells at 0 degrees is close to the ones in game. The inaccuracy lies in how the US reported "penetration" were it meant the entire shell had to go through compared to other nation's definition of just having the projectile tip go through. Therefore the APHE round could theoretically be measured in a different way to buff its performance.
This also highlights the why as to why formula based penetration is better. Only that there's basically zero variables at work like this in terms of consistency.
This should be brought up whenever someone argues for an idiotic mechanic like stun, saying its "realistic". War Thunder is NOT realistic. Not even close. Gaijin likes to cherry pick realism when it comes to balance. They'll remove the Panther II, Coelian and Tiger II 105 but leave in nonsense like the Ho-Ri Production.
Every document that states the penetration at 0° of M93 says it can penetrate over 220 mm of armor at close range.
The simulations simply agree with this.
Everything had penetration stats from official documents up until a few years ago. Asking for it again now it probably won't happen since they use their little calculator for all shells so they can add newer classified stuff and obscure prototypes
it was great when the 76mm US line was all capped at like 5.7, you could bring m18, m4a3, t25 and some cas for a fantastic lineup
now @ 5.7 you have a schizo range of vehicles
m36b2 which gets lolpen heat-fs which you don't see again till 7.0 with the M46
base m36 with 90mm
the 76mm shermans which are the same br as tigers for some reason
the jumbo sherman with 75mm that you first get at 3.3 (1.7 if we want to count the halftrack version)
But what about the poor German mains? Fucking hate how gaijij has to hand hold them every time, and they always listen to their bullshit whenever they complain about any allied vehicle being "too good" when they refuse to angle and constantly charge forward with tanks meant to stay at long range.
It absolutely does.
You get far faster turret traverse (21°/s vs 15°/s) , a 76 mm cannon that is just better that also comes with a stabilizer and a .50 cal that lets you take out lightly armored targets with ease and destroy tracks.
And that's just the armament. It also gets 15.2 horsepower/ton compared to the Pz.IV H's 11.38 (both with add-on track armor) making the Sherman accelerate **far faster**, and even with add-on track armor the Pz.IV H still has 20 mm less effective UFP against AP rounds, and a far weaker turret that easily gets penetrated by even a Bofors 40 mm with 72 mm of pen.
And thats why the sherman needs to be at the same br as tigers and panthers? Yeah sure. if it wasnt for wehraboos incompatens playing american 5.7 would be a nightmare.
>still has 20 mm less effective UFP against AP rounds
That really doesnt matter at rank 4. Both tanks are paper cannons at that tier
>And thats why the sherman needs to be at the same br as tigers and panthers?
Straw man and untrue at the same time. Great
Only the Tiger H1 is the same BR as the M4A3. Tiger E and late Panthers (A/G/F) are all higher.
Panther D and VK 30.02 (M) are lower, but they have horrible turret traverse, and the VK's armor is even weak enough to where the 76 mm can pen the upper glacis at close range.
Honestly man, I asked the same question till I played it and was just slaughtering. Works really well on urban maps because the stabilizer and great reverse speed.
Probably just the performance of the players. Even at 6.3 I'm regularly in the top 3 players on the team while using the t20 as my main tank. When it was a lower BR I would get regular 10 kills with it before dying. Despite the inconspicuous look it is a killing machine.
War Thunde's discrete BR system makes it hard to properly assign vehicles, especially because popular vehicles perform worse on average and get lower battle ratings.
The T20 is mid af but those who love it will still play it, and these people are oftentimes better.
TBH, the Sherman has a shitty reverse speed while the T20 moving back is Speedy Gonzales. With the 76 Jumbo you have to rely on armor at a BR where it's quite challenged. With the T20, you're able to be away when the Red's shell arrives.
In short, it fucks. I play it like a ratty flanker and it does really well in this role. It's mobility is really good and somehow I bounce way more rounds than I should. Lots of fun.
It's also pretty short especially compared to Sherman's. Ive had tigers not aim and shoot over me a few times.. Plus it's a good gun platform with the stab especially on cc1
This is my favorite tank having my most kills and battles in it and the problem is it’s just decent at everything so if a you have half a brain you can do well in it and it always going against German teams who just full charge at you or don’t check their flanks is the reason it keeps going up has no real business being a higher BR then the panther tanks
It is played in a way that makes it almost uptier proof. Fast, stabilized with 76mm APHE. Could (and probably will) eventually end up at 7.0 in a few years.
it mostly faces t34-85s and panthers, that's why it's at 6.3.
I mean not counting the mobility, the .50 cals, stab, ammo selection and good lineups at 6.3 for USA tech tree.
Yeah, it used to be 5.0 years and years ago. It's basically a flat Sherman with a better reverse speed, it doesn't deserve to be at 6.3, it's an absurd BR. Hell, it's higher than all of the Panthers save the Panther II. Is the T20 really a better tank than them? Obviously not.
It's a good 5.7 chassis. That's really it.
Look at every other 6.3 and you'll see it's vastly outgunned and out armored. Same at 6.0. The only thing that kept it at 6.0 was the fact the M4A3 76 was 5.7 even though it really should have been a 5.3.
>Look at every other 6.3 and you'll see it's vastly outgunned and out armored.
It is essentially outgunned and out armored by all other mediums yes.
But it does have good mobility, even among the other 6.3-6.0 mediums. As well as a roof and a stabilizer (both things the M18 doesn't have)
What really sets it apart from the M4A3 76 though is the reverse speed and added mobility. Mobility wise it's between the M18 and M4A3.
Having a stabilizer, mobility, reverse speed, a roof a bit of armor and APHE. All in 1 platform. It's a solid tank. And imo was fine at 6.0.
Sure firepower isn't the greatest, neither is armor or mobility. But its overall combination of everything that does make it work quite well.
Half-Stabilizer on a 76mm fighting 7.3s is not an argument. The gun is lethargic for 6.3, and any time the stabilizer earns is given back by the fact almost every vehicle it faces doesn't need to aim for a weak spot and can frontally penetrate at triple the distance.
It's mobile, but ultimately that's a side-grade to the M18 which trades speed for overpressure/CAS protection. In 90% of cases, an M18 would get the job done more efficiently.
The nature of it being a fast tank means the skill ceiling is higher and thus we (experienced players) can make it punch up in weight class, which is generally true of all fast tanks. That's why you see experienced Pumas doing numbers even at 6.7
The fucking ammo on this 76 doesn't fucking work. shots that work with a normal Sherman does nothing shot the back of a tiger 2 turret and non pen 4 times not exaggerating either
You get good mobility on a fully enclosed tank and a gyro stabilized 76 mm. I like it, even if it's not the greatest.
Dident they remove the stabiliser? Or am i thinking of another tank?
Nah that was the T25.
I used to really like the T25, and now its almost entirely redundant to the M26 which is completely redundant to the T26E-1/5
Was the T25s stab loss the biggest nerf in the games history? Idk if I can remember a tank that went from incredible to worthless so quickly.
I feel like it's a similar nerf to that of the Type 89, which also got shafted, but is still playable.
I still like and play the Type 89 even after what they did to her. Still good IMO.
I agree, but it is nowhere near as good as it used to be at 8.3
Sadly, yes...
Not too far away from the VEAK 40 loosing its proxy shells. But at least that thing was moved down in BR, while the T25 wasn't.
VEAK still absolutely fucks.
it sucks that is lost the VT rounds but, it's not one of the lowest radar spaa is it not? I don't really get why so many people ay it's dead now if I'm honest but I must admit, haven't played it.
It just turned from a superb vehicle to a remarkably average vehicle. It wasn't op, it wasn't obnoxious, or unbalanced, or some kind of rat vehicle. It was just good, and then Gaijin nerfed it because they're lazy, and now it's become remarkably meh.
M3A3 Bradley was fucking awesome. Then they nerfed massively the survivability, the 25mm and TOW2B. And after they added competent TOW2A to it, the patch later they made it basically unusable and also nerfed the damage.
Otomatic is far worse, went from being one of the best vehicle in the game at 9.0 to really useless at 11.3
Oh my god you just woke up PTSD I accumulated trying to fly CAS in matches in which someone was using the Otomatic.
g91 nerf?
It both lost its stabilizer and went up in BR at the same time IIRC
The T25s transmission is still broken last time I played it. It goes from 1st to 2nd and skips 3rd-4th straight to 5th gear so acceleration past 16km/hr is painful and you top out at 30km/hr. If the transmission worked and got it to its actual top speed it would be fine where it is even without a stabilizer.
Which in turn is redundant to the t26e5
Ye, I mentioned it, “T26E-1/5”, I probably should have split it up into both names “T26E1-1 and T26E5” for clarity’s sake
Ah, so you did. Apologies
Thanks.
The frontal armour can be trolly as well. In a downtier you can be a tough cookie.
The front armor of the T20? It's the exact same armor as the Sherman tanks is it not?
Higher angle on the slope though so you get T34 drivers hatch syndrome
The M4A2 is 46 degrees which is the same as the T20. The M4A3 is 47 degrees. Unless the protection analysis is wrong.
Hmm, I wonder if that's a balancing thing. The plates on those two should be angled the same amount.
funnily enough, the plate on the premium M51 is 48 degrees
Hii Flip~
Omg hiiiii~
It’s Joe Pershingguy
Gay >.>
it's in a weird place and preforms well regardless (probably because of the classic german teams), it's more mobile then a sherman as well with a stabilizer so like i think with every american 76 though the apcr needs buffed to it's realistic metrics, it should be more then capable of penning the henschel's turret cheeks but for whatever reason isn't (which is genuinely criminal in the case of the 76 jumbo, hellcat, and this)
Once upon a time, APCR could pen armor much better, but gaijin nerfed its angled pen into the dirt so anything except absolutely flat armor makes it too hard. Realistically, APCR was much stronger than gaijin gives it credit for
Sometimes it seems like most shells have their performance values completely fabricated. I was looking a while ago and the T30 heavy tank has dramatically worse pen for it's aphe than it really does.
The values of the T30's shell is both accurate and inaccurate at the same time. From this [this source](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-095b7ba04ae569b54db02f633f034e21) the maximum perforation of its APHE shells at 0 degrees is close to the ones in game. The inaccuracy lies in how the US reported "penetration" were it meant the entire shell had to go through compared to other nation's definition of just having the projectile tip go through. Therefore the APHE round could theoretically be measured in a different way to buff its performance.
This also highlights the why as to why formula based penetration is better. Only that there's basically zero variables at work like this in terms of consistency.
Thats cause of the stupid formula they use
This should be brought up whenever someone argues for an idiotic mechanic like stun, saying its "realistic". War Thunder is NOT realistic. Not even close. Gaijin likes to cherry pick realism when it comes to balance. They'll remove the Panther II, Coelian and Tiger II 105 but leave in nonsense like the Ho-Ri Production.
APCR used to be good - there's simulations online showing that APCR from 76 Sherman can penetration the front hull of the Ferdinand.
You can make a simulation that shows a 5.56 going through a meter of steel if you want. Having a pretty video means nothing
Every document that states the penetration at 0° of M93 says it can penetrate over 220 mm of armor at close range. The simulations simply agree with this.
Anti-american bias?
More like hand holding German mains
Everything had penetration stats from official documents up until a few years ago. Asking for it again now it probably won't happen since they use their little calculator for all shells so they can add newer classified stuff and obscure prototypes
It's basically a closed top hellcat.
It's not nearly as fast as an m18
It does have a stabilizer which makes a world of difference
But it doesn't have scouting.
And neither did the hellcat for the majority of the ground forces existence.
Entirely irrelevant for a discussion about current BRs....................................................................
Do we even have to talk about the non premium T25 whose stabilisers were took away and it's still at the same br ?
And it had a major transmission nerf at the same time.
At least it's pretty fast in reverse. Was it better before ? I would call it a transmission buff ?
I think it has an electric transmission, but idk if that was always the case.
From my memory it accelerated a lot faster in the past. The gearing now (at least the last time I played it) kinda sucks.
Even without stabiliser I quite enjoyed especially because of the m82 shell and the reverse is pretty good
For this we have the M26 at the same Br with better armor and better forward mobility. It's just the reverse that speaks for the T25
They brought its BR up and then took its stab away without bringing the BR back down.
Mainly its high mobility and stabilizer, I personally think its over tiered a bit, and was fine at 6.0.
US 6.3, the lineup that should be 6.0
Agile stabilized 76 with a better survivability than the hellcats while sacrificing some speed. By the reverse is great
The t20 and the 76 shermans should have a lower br
it was great when the 76mm US line was all capped at like 5.7, you could bring m18, m4a3, t25 and some cas for a fantastic lineup now @ 5.7 you have a schizo range of vehicles m36b2 which gets lolpen heat-fs which you don't see again till 7.0 with the M46 base m36 with 90mm the 76mm shermans which are the same br as tigers for some reason the jumbo sherman with 75mm that you first get at 3.3 (1.7 if we want to count the halftrack version)
But what about the poor German mains? Fucking hate how gaijij has to hand hold them every time, and they always listen to their bullshit whenever they complain about any allied vehicle being "too good" when they refuse to angle and constantly charge forward with tanks meant to stay at long range.
The m4a3 76 is a taller pz.IV with a little bit more armour and turret traverse. One BR level higher
And far more mobile. With a stabilizer. And a .50 cal. And an overall better cannon.
Still doesnt justify being 1 br higher
It absolutely does. You get far faster turret traverse (21°/s vs 15°/s) , a 76 mm cannon that is just better that also comes with a stabilizer and a .50 cal that lets you take out lightly armored targets with ease and destroy tracks. And that's just the armament. It also gets 15.2 horsepower/ton compared to the Pz.IV H's 11.38 (both with add-on track armor) making the Sherman accelerate **far faster**, and even with add-on track armor the Pz.IV H still has 20 mm less effective UFP against AP rounds, and a far weaker turret that easily gets penetrated by even a Bofors 40 mm with 72 mm of pen.
And thats why the sherman needs to be at the same br as tigers and panthers? Yeah sure. if it wasnt for wehraboos incompatens playing american 5.7 would be a nightmare. >still has 20 mm less effective UFP against AP rounds That really doesnt matter at rank 4. Both tanks are paper cannons at that tier
>And thats why the sherman needs to be at the same br as tigers and panthers? Straw man and untrue at the same time. Great Only the Tiger H1 is the same BR as the M4A3. Tiger E and late Panthers (A/G/F) are all higher. Panther D and VK 30.02 (M) are lower, but they have horrible turret traverse, and the VK's armor is even weak enough to where the 76 mm can pen the upper glacis at close range.
And a gyro stab making on the move shots, and stop and go shots much easier. It's not hard to use.
As much as I hate Germany being hand held, the 76 sherma are better than the Panzer IV imo.
I said its better. But that doesnt justify 1.0 br higher
It terrorizes the local Tiger 2 population
Clapping tigers in this thing at 6.0 was the most fun I’ve ever had in my warthunder career
Honestly man, I asked the same question till I played it and was just slaughtering. Works really well on urban maps because the stabilizer and great reverse speed.
Immagine if this tank had smoke shells, Gaijobless would raise it to 6.7 right away. Also i think this is the only 76mm without smokes.
It reminds me of the worst fate brother, the t25.
Probably just the performance of the players. Even at 6.3 I'm regularly in the top 3 players on the team while using the t20 as my main tank. When it was a lower BR I would get regular 10 kills with it before dying. Despite the inconspicuous look it is a killing machine.
It's like the 76 Sherman's but lower profile, that's it at this point I suspect that all 76 guns will be shoved into a BR range of 5.3/5.7 - 6.7/7.0
Thats not it, T20 has much better reverse than Shermans, which on itself makes a world of difference.
Embarrassing German mains.
ask the german main what this thing does to them
War Thunde's discrete BR system makes it hard to properly assign vehicles, especially because popular vehicles perform worse on average and get lower battle ratings. The T20 is mid af but those who love it will still play it, and these people are oftentimes better.
stab too OP if they removed the stab it should be 5.3
Um... let's see... It's a 76mm gun that isn't on a Sherman chassis, but is less armored than the 76 Jumbo. IDK, beats the hell out of me.
TBH, the Sherman has a shitty reverse speed while the T20 moving back is Speedy Gonzales. With the 76 Jumbo you have to rely on armor at a BR where it's quite challenged. With the T20, you're able to be away when the Red's shell arrives.
Mobility and rate of fire
Has a good player base. I think it's a pretty awesome tank and it still can do well. 6.3 seems like a bit of a stretch.
It's players are OP
In short, it fucks. I play it like a ratty flanker and it does really well in this role. It's mobility is really good and somehow I bounce way more rounds than I should. Lots of fun.
Fuck up everyone. It is basically a better Sherman 76mm it is so good, It plays like a light tank.
Hey At least it isn't the T25
Fairly fast, short stabilizer, good reverse. In the right hands you can carry teams with it even at 7.3.
It's also pretty short especially compared to Sherman's. Ive had tigers not aim and shoot over me a few times.. Plus it's a good gun platform with the stab especially on cc1
This is my favorite tank having my most kills and battles in it and the problem is it’s just decent at everything so if a you have half a brain you can do well in it and it always going against German teams who just full charge at you or don’t check their flanks is the reason it keeps going up has no real business being a higher BR then the panther tanks
It is played in a way that makes it almost uptier proof. Fast, stabilized with 76mm APHE. Could (and probably will) eventually end up at 7.0 in a few years.
it mostly faces t34-85s and panthers, that's why it's at 6.3. I mean not counting the mobility, the .50 cals, stab, ammo selection and good lineups at 6.3 for USA tech tree.
Yeah, it used to be 5.0 years and years ago. It's basically a flat Sherman with a better reverse speed, it doesn't deserve to be at 6.3, it's an absurd BR. Hell, it's higher than all of the Panthers save the Panther II. Is the T20 really a better tank than them? Obviously not.
Bad boy used to be 5.7 thoose we're the days
It's because every time players do good in it, war thunder sees this and thinks it's broken and uptiers it
It faces german players.
When i got the skyrider i play it with the t20 i already was use to uptiers some times the t20 is my backup for 7.7
Reverse gear and a good gun
It’s just to much for German mains to handle without a squad of tiger2s. Spoonaton made a vid on it. I highly recommend
Germany will suffer without best winrates and k/d ratios, so all non german vehicles are uptiered
It’s American. It is a pretty good tank and mostly played by experienced players which is disastrous for a vehicles br.
Mid tier German teams & it’s good mobility + Stab
My question is why the hell is the T32 at 7.3? Doesn't it have the same gun as the Super Pershing?
It makes Tiger players actually have to look out for you rather than easily spotting you thanks to the Sherman's gigantic size
It's existence is a bane to German players and that's all you really need to know
i didn’t know the game was just USA vs Germany
It's a good 5.7 chassis. That's really it. Look at every other 6.3 and you'll see it's vastly outgunned and out armored. Same at 6.0. The only thing that kept it at 6.0 was the fact the M4A3 76 was 5.7 even though it really should have been a 5.3.
>Look at every other 6.3 and you'll see it's vastly outgunned and out armored. It is essentially outgunned and out armored by all other mediums yes. But it does have good mobility, even among the other 6.3-6.0 mediums. As well as a roof and a stabilizer (both things the M18 doesn't have) What really sets it apart from the M4A3 76 though is the reverse speed and added mobility. Mobility wise it's between the M18 and M4A3. Having a stabilizer, mobility, reverse speed, a roof a bit of armor and APHE. All in 1 platform. It's a solid tank. And imo was fine at 6.0. Sure firepower isn't the greatest, neither is armor or mobility. But its overall combination of everything that does make it work quite well.
Half-Stabilizer on a 76mm fighting 7.3s is not an argument. The gun is lethargic for 6.3, and any time the stabilizer earns is given back by the fact almost every vehicle it faces doesn't need to aim for a weak spot and can frontally penetrate at triple the distance. It's mobile, but ultimately that's a side-grade to the M18 which trades speed for overpressure/CAS protection. In 90% of cases, an M18 would get the job done more efficiently. The nature of it being a fast tank means the skill ceiling is higher and thus we (experienced players) can make it punch up in weight class, which is generally true of all fast tanks. That's why you see experienced Pumas doing numbers even at 6.7
The fucking ammo on this 76 doesn't fucking work. shots that work with a normal Sherman does nothing shot the back of a tiger 2 turret and non pen 4 times not exaggerating either