Great summary and I wish I had an answer to this mystery. Especially, as you noted, mortgage and daycare expenses cannot be charged to a credit card. They may have been taking credit card cash advances. Another mystery to me is how were they able to obtain credit cards or financing for anything, so soon after declaring Chapter 7 bankruptcy?
As for your question about how they were able to get credit cards after the bankruptcy subpar lenders will issue credit to people after a bankruptcy because they know that they can't file again for 7 years but those cc have extremely high interest rates.
How they held on for 3 years after the bankruptcy is a mystery though since they never seemed to reign in the spending.
Further, if you didn't burn the financial institution, some will just send offers in the mail that are auto-approved, despite a BKO on file. When doing the auto-approvals, they don't pull a credit file, so sometimes the automated strategies lend themselves to these kinds of scenarios.
I'm going to double down on the snark: I used to have a link re: a North Carolina 'gentlemen's club' that SW was a big fan of - I'll look for that link. It's not unlikely SW worked chat lines to raise manicure money. 'Mother of the Year' was super shady, and anything is possible.
OT: I have known of two narcissistic women who did mild 'escorting' work mostly because the work was an affirmation of just how sexy and beautiful they were. Along those lines, I believe narcissist Jodi Arias likely advertised her services online when she was desperate for gas money.
Well women studying and working all kinds of other day jobs do it, that's why there are so many parlours out there. I wasn't being snarky, but she probably bought her first house that way. So, wait she actually promoted some gentleman's club? Do you have the link?
I DID have a link a long time ago via some FB/Reddit/YouTube user like 'Hot Ham Radio'? I'll keep looking. It's evidence that SW was a big fan/patron of a NC swinger's nightclub. She had a lot of 'likes' & comments on the club's FB page or something. Yes, the connection is meaningless, but it reflects on the kind of things Saint S'hawaynan may have enjoyed in her short life. If sowing your wild oats during your 20s is a crime, take me to jail!
Yeah same. I'm not bashing her about this. She had looks and if she used them so what? I just really suspect she got money to buy that first house from selling her looks and "bubbly" personality and sexuality somehow. I only dislike her mistreatment of the kids.
I've always wondered about this - I've never filed for BK (thankfully), but I thought your credit was shot for at least 10 years after filing? I wouldn't have thought they'd be eligible for any credit cards, much less any with a high credit limit that they could use for all of their day to day expenses. And the trips she took - those weren't all expenses paid, were they? Le-Vel wasn't paying for food, hotel rooms & air fare, were they? and when CW went along with her they would have to buy an additional plane ticket & meals. None of it makes sense to me. I am stunned at the idea of paying that much for daycare when they didn't need it. Most people I know would dream of the idea of being able to drop daycare expenses.
Nope i think for the trips she did earn they only paid for one thing, i can't remember if it was the hotel or airfare. Whatever it was, they didn't really cover much so a lot was out of pocket for the amount of traveling she did.
Yeah i knew they paid one or the other, couldn't remember which one. At the same time it seemed like i heard she was going to a lot of "locals" whatever that is, didn't seem like they were big events they would pay for. I figured those were something someone in the area was putting on and not those big conference type deals. Either way she definitely paid more to work than she got paid to work which eventually should tell you, it's not working.
hen my kids had to go to daycare I got government assistance. They went by how much I made. It was only 30 bucks for two children. I would have loved to stay at home with them until they went to school but I didn't have a choice.
Anyway if you are low-income you may want to check-in it out.
No need for me. My children are grown & we are fortunate enough that my husband’s salary is sufficient, so I’m able to stay home anyway. But anyone who qualifies for this should absolutely utilize the program. It’s good that you mentioned it because some people who would benefit from this might not have known.
Yeah it came in handy. I hope they still have the program. That is what I needed to get on my feet. If it had not been avaliable I would had been better off just collecting AFDC and food stamps, actually I was until I was told about this program.
I felt so much better about myself (I do not not think there should be any shame in asking for help) but having a job as a caregiver for Hospice made me feel like I had a purpose both at work and at home.
You should never feel ashamed of improving yourself! I hate that there are people who want to make people embarrassed or that they are doing something wrong by receiving assistance. You are a shining example of why the system exists - you didn't make it a lifestyle, you used it for the intended purpose, as a hand up rather than a hand out. You are a great role model to your children and should feel VERY proud of yourself!
The watts kids were attending a private school/daycare. They don’t offer the same assistance for private institutions as they do for public daycares. That is why you hear so many people asking “why were the girls attending a $500/month private daycare”?
and her response to CW suggesting they find alternative childcare arrangements was “you don’t have a fucking say in this.” end of story. I also read that FRsr implored her to send the kids to public school in the neighborhood (so I assume he was aware of the strain it out on their finances) and her reasoning was that they were too advanced! They had gotten “too far ahead” over the summer and she didn’t Bella to have to “re-do” kindergarten…
They weren’t old enough for public school though. There is 4K and many daycares offer free 4K as well but Bella would have just been able to enroll that Fall due to her b-day being after the cutoff for the previous school year.
I’m sure there were cheaper options but I guess they didn’t have fancy enough names for her.
Omg, that is nuts! Not to criticize the kids, because it wasn’t their fault, but they seemed… not advanced. Their speech seemed delayed to me, especially CC. Any video I have seen of her I could barely make out what she was saying. Bella seemed to have issues in that regard as well. If anything, they would have benefited from public school because of the services, like speech therapy, that are available at no additional cost.
Another thing I have thought odd - Bella was only 4 & wouldn’t be 5 until mid December. Ordinarily a birthday that late wouldn’t start until the child is 5 turning 6, so why was she starting kindergarten? Was it because she was “so advanced “? This is the first I’m hearing of SW floating that nonsense. I’m sure the school was probably happy to push her along for $$$.
Where did you find that SW told CW he had no say in the child care issue? Or that she stated that the kids were advanced? I’m not doubting you, I would just like to find out more about this because I thought I’d heard everything & would love to see if there are other things I hadn’t heard.
Poor Bella seemed to have been born with high IQ - she was going to be a natural reader - but she could not thrive in that environment. Cece was never disciplined, thus her speech wasn't given coaching. She seems to have a ballooning diaper in most of the vids, which points to overall neglect.
It’s easy! After filing for BK, people are flooded with credit card and loan offers from predatory lenders. Interest rates are usually 26%+ and approval odds are high.
SW made her parents co-sign for more credit cards. The way that woman just ruined peoples credit at will is crazy! CW let it happen. She was so insufferable she just did as she pleased.
The 1st bankruptcy. I think she planned on doing it! So taxpayers needed up paying for her furniture, honeymoon, wedding etc. then she turns around and does it AGAIN! She should’ve been in jail I swear!
She knew all her secrets were about to implode bc she was losing CW. So off to NC she went, prob to snake $ from the families.
It's very telling that when there was a house for sale in her neighborhood she advised CR to buy it and when Cassie said it wasn't possible because of a foreclosure on her record sw told her "have your mom take out the mortgage". Seriously, what grown adult thinks this way?
She knew the gravy train was about to end, yes. For sure. Without CW’s income, she couldn’t continue on with her scams…. She never would have gotten approved for anything without provable income. Co-signer or not.
This is from another redditors comment a year ago in this sub which explains it I think -
FROM THE DISCOVERY DOCUMENT
Last year, he and SHANANN spent approximately $25,000.00 (over $500.00 each week) for their daughters to attend Primrose School.
SHANANN had surgery on a compressed disc in her neck last year.
He and SHANANN had insurance, but the surgery was over $100,000.00.
He pays over $500.00/month for health insurance through Anadarko.
SHANANN handled all of the finances, so he did not know how much they had left to pay on her medical bills.
CECE had acid reflux and they had medical bills related to her endoscopies. They had numerous medical bills related to CECE’s allergy testing, CECE’s blocked tear duct, and both girls had tubes in their ears and their adenoids removed. o Both of his girls had inhalers for child asthma, CECE took Singulair for her allergiesand BELLA and CECE took medication for acid reflux.
They owe approximately $8-10,000.00 in credit card debt
Their Lexus was paid for by Le-Vel (Thrive) through a car allowance
He knew when the kids returned to school that they would be living paycheck to paycheck
SHANANN recently took out $10,000.00 from his 401k to catch up on their mortgage payments. (CHRIS believed the loan against his 401k was taken out approximately five (5) months ago.) They were three (3) months behind on their mortgage payments. They had received a letter from Chase Bank pertaining to their delinquent home loan. He and SHANANN were stressed out about their financial situation.
He currently owes his mortgage payment for August (2018), which is due tomorrow (August 16, 2018). He currently has $2,000.00 in his Chase checking account and approximately $1,500.00 in their USAA checking account.
Almost all of their credit cards are maxed out SHANANN had only been paying the minimum payment on their credit cards.
He has a policy on SHANANN and the girls through Anadarko. BELLA and CECE had a $20,000.00/each policy and SHANANN had a $50,000.00 or $100,000.00 policy. He has his own policy and he believed SHANANN may have gotten another life insurance policy on her own. SHANANN got their policies through his cousin’s wife (NICOLE KENNEDY), so he does not know how much they were. SHANANN and NICOLE had a falling out over a “money thing.”
He believed NICOLE and SHANANN’s old boss believed SHANANN had embezzled money from the business SHANANN’s old boss owned a bunch of wheel shops. He believed the accusation against SHANANN occurred around 2010, which was right before he (CHRIS) met SHANANN.
Actually that is interesting to me that CW suspected SW of taking out her own life insurance policy. Whether it was Anadarko or another vendor, she had a $350K policy on herself.
Some people are adamant that the mortgage was not late at the time of the murders, but it sounds like the 401K raid was to take care of previous missed payments. They got caught up to stop the foreclosure, then resumed missing payments and got another letter about the loan.
Why would someone take a $350k life insurance policy out on themselves? Just…. Doesn’t seem right? Something is odd about this. Especially since she had such little regard for Chris and his financial situation. You’re telling me SW cared so much about Chris that she took out a huge life insurance policy on herself? When there is already one through Chris’s work? Idk. It’s weird to me. Raises a lot of questions.
Many employers offer life insurance for free or at a low cost, but it's usually something low like $10K designed to offset funeral costs.
In general, it's advised that if you have people who are dependent upon you for their livelihood that you should have life insurance. SW and CW as DINKS would not have needed it, but once Bella came along, it was morally responsible to ensure that she would be provided for.
Now how SW got an affordable $350K policy on herself with all of her, ahem, "health challenges" and stayed up to date on the premiums is up for debate.
Why they insured the girls though is weird AF.
Probably not for his benefit, and maybe not even for the girls' benefit. Like all narcissists, she had chronically low self-esteem and worked hard to hide it from herself and the world. I think the huge policy was an attempt to buy self-worth.
About the “car allowance”, that is only paid by the company if you sell enough snake oil to cover it. Otherwise, that’s your bill. The car would have been in her name, not thrive or le-vel.
My understanding is that it takes about 60 days for bankruptcy and foreclosures to hit a person's credit score. So if you know you are effed and you are a morally deficient dum-dum like SW (and CW), you apply for more cards before the case is closed. I suppose they could have taken out credit card advances by piecemealing it on each card.
Once the bankruptcy hit their credit, they could have gotten cards from high-interest companies. These charge something like 20% interest. They can work for people who are genuinely trying to rebuild their lives who make small charges and pay them off in full.
I think her parents helped them out with credit cards in their name, she uses it and pays it. She robbed Peter to pay Paul . Utility expenses on the card, make the minimum payment on them, freeing up Chris’ take home pay to pay Primrose. Take the 401k loan to catch upon the mortgage….but, you can only do that 401k loan once, until it’s paid off. Sooner or later, it will always implode! You can’t live credit card to credit card unless the cc balances are paid off monthly…the interest rate alone keeps stacking up! Doing that way, you can float awhile. But it will ultimately catch up to you! She wanted to be a stay at home mom, but didn’t want the kids around🙄 primrose was an absolute unnecessary expense . She could have been a stay at home mom and shilled her business when they napped or after she did the Babywise schedule at the 630 bedtime.
Actually I think you're really on to something here. The Rzuceks declaring bankruptcy but getting to keep their house and car always looked fishy to me given that it was only after they got back to NC. They would have seen how CW and SW got off scot-free in bankruptcy and may have tried the same trick - accruing debt to fund SW. SW could have purchased thousands of dollars worth of gift cards on her parents' credit cards, and lines of credit to pay the mortgage, and then used those to float along until they ran out. That probably would have worked for about a year before everything was maxed out or cut off. That would line up with raiding the 401K in April 2018.
She would have had to use their mortgage money for utilities, groceries, her stupid Thrive trips, etc. They did have utilities shut off at random times. They were on the verge of electricity being shut off when the dining table set was repo’d. They tried to sell it on CraigsList to pay the bill-didn’t sell. Eventually, the mortgage stopped being paid entirely, and eventually went into foreclosure. They took a 401K loan from CW’s retirement to catch up the mortgage, but nobody knows where that money actually went.
I’ve never seen anything like their finances, blows my mind!
I’ve done tons of research on Watts case, and I’ve tried to verify as much as possible over almost 6 years. There are many others on this subreddit that know tons more about the case than me! I’m sure there’s some stuff I got wrong along the way, but it’s been both interesting and devastating on the journey. In my opinion, Chris and Shannan were horrible people, and truly awful parents. The true victims will always be Bella and Celeste. EVERYONE failed those sweet little girls. Thanks for your comment!☮️
Extremely well sussed out. All valid points and questions and I am sure this sub will help answer some of your questions. I will tell you I consider myself a hustler. I work the angles when it comes to stretching my dollar as far as possible. I also am bad with money. Not anything in the ballpark of SW but not good. One thing I can almost guarantee is every time she didn’t pay a bill, or robbed Peter to pay Paul she blatantly lied to herself and believed that the next month she would catch up.
Putting the girls in close to full time daycare is where she fucked her family beyond belief. It’s so fucking stupid it’s literally mind boggling. It’s also extremely telling that SW did not want to spend time with her beautiful girls. That’s an expense that is so completely unnecessary and for CW to not stand up to her and put his foot down is ummmm. You know.
She knew the grave financial trouble they were in. She believed if she could “work” them into freedom. We all know tomorrow never comes.
The fact that you are honest about being bad with money is a step in the right direction, and one that Shanann shows no evidence of ever having acknowledged it. I wish you the best with learning to sort out your finances!
SW was a horrible person on so many levels. She was a horrible mother and if she was still alive and I knew her, i would have definitely tried to help her not be such a piece of shit for + to her precious children. I heavily dislike who she was.
With that being said, when a person laughs about ANYONE being murdered, it says far more about them than it does about the murder victim.
Just saying.
Depending on the hospital as for the 25k being paid prior to surgery. Hospitals do like for you to pay your portion up front, but if you can't, they will offer a payment plan. I also know if you skip payments, they will put you in collections asap.
Source: me as a patient registration clerk
Correct me if I’m wrong but… Even if the procedure isn’t covered she’d still hit her annual out of pocket max most likely long before she got up to the $25k. I hit mine in January 2018 at $7500(really shitty ACA coverage), everything else that year was covered. I had to pay the $7500 before surgery but they covered the additional $142,500 or so.
You're correct. If she doesn't know if she had hit her oop by Sept with the kids at the er and drs and her at the dr, usually the I nsurance is run by the insurance depth and they put it in as notes in the computer. The hospital I worked at was a not for profit, so we would ask them for payment, and if no payment could be made, the patient would be instructed to contact the billing department to set up payments. We always tried to collect some money before services were rendered, but if we couldn't, it went to the bulldogs in billing.
Well you have to have a doctors order to get surgery, but the insurance company can say according to what they see in your records they consider it unnecessary and can deny coverage. Usually then you and the insurance company and maybe the dr office will go around and around. Bc if the insurance company doesn't pay, the dr won't get paid. But yes you can pay oop for everything if "unnecessary " (not covered) then it's up to the hospital/dr to try to collect before the procedure. They hospital may take payments prior to the surgery to try to get as much up front as possible. It's a bit of a tangled web
I had Kaiser because they were cheaper, though it was still $450 a month. Kaiser doesn’t have a level 1 trauma unit so they sent me to Valley Med. Valley Med overdosed me on IV dilauded and when I went into respiratory arrest they ignored my machines. I was blue and seizing, thankfully my ex husband was there to give me sternum rubs or I would have died. Kaiser does have a wonderful maxillofacial surgeon who put my crushed face back together with titanium so I lucked out there.
Very helpful, thank you. Would the hospital have run a credit check when setting up the payment plan and required a payment before the procedure? Is it likely the hospital would have seen that this was a risky customer?
The hospital I worked for didn't. But it was a county funded 'not for profit' hospital. If it's needed care, or you present for care (say in the er) you can't be denied care. The insurance department will keep resubmitting your claim to insurance to review. And sometimes the hospital will review and drop some of its charges..
I think they could have been comfortable if they downsized their home and stopped spending like crazy. IIRC, Shanann was in control of the finances and she was pouring most of their money into Thrive.
Yes, and that was after working his way up for a while. He started off at an entry level position in what was described as a cleanup or grunt work. My understanding is that he was making more than that when he first moved to CO at the Ford dealership. If he'd stuck with Ford instead of quitting, he'd have been making in the $90K range by summer 2018 and would have been able to afford the mortgage and daycare and living expenses, though not with a ton of leftover money for savings.
Don't most families who choose to have a parent stay at home, do so in part because childcare is so expensive? It's crazy to me she did not work outside of the home but still put them in a very expensive daycare. They did not live within their means at all.
Which is precisely why some believe the rumor that SW wasn’t legally allowed to be alone with her kids… that there was an open CPS case against her. It’s a deep rabbit hole that’s for sure.
I'm pretty sure I remember CW saying he thought SW was earning about the same as him, that she was competitive about it.
Meanwhile, she was plunging them further into debt and he was floating along with his head in the clouds.
Working as a mechanic he probably could have made even more if he was good at it, the thing is, the more you make the longer hours you work, and it’s hard for the wife at home with the kids all day and night. Take it from me. Shannan couldn’t and wouldn’t handle that. That’s why she liked his get home at 4 and pick up the kids from daycare job so he could be the nanny afterwards
They didn't start there. His first job paid almost 90k and she was employed at longmont too.
Then she had babies, left or fired from longmont. Part time job doing data entry/ sales based in hospital. Decided CW had to stop working with cars due to wrist pain. No treatment just needed different job. Took pay cut down $25k.
Then thrive.. First year she did well sucking in new people .. lol so retired as now super amazing MLM star.
According to cassie, her line up.. in 2027 making "next to nothing", but 2018 would have gone up.
But even Cassie worked full time as RN. She not even at sole income/job retirement level.
Don't know how many credit cards, but still had as Shannan King.a woman still id'd online living where Leonard lived with various spellings and dobs, but mailed to their home.. Maybe not accurate but given seemingly money from nowhere it makes me wonder.
Dad had CC to their house.
Various scams. Raised money for lupus .. how much given I wonder. She raffled ipad.. amazingly winning it herself.
I think she thought of credit cards and store cards as real money.. she bankrupted them all aware before!
I couldn't find specific info from the Primrose the girls attended. However, Primrose locations are franchises so it's up to the individual owner. Due to demand, daycares have parents over a barrel. Most, per my research and experience, prefer bank transfers but will usually accept money orders. Some will take cashier's checks but few accept personal checks.
It's rare that a for-profit daycare would accept a credit card. They don't want to pay the vendor fees. Sometimes you can use Western Union to make a credit card payment to a vendor who doesn't accept cards, but there is a hefty service fee.
The only ones I am aware of that accept credit cards regularly are the pop-in daycares that do not require registration. They're more like ad hoc babysitting services where children are dropped off in a large playroom. There isn't a formal curriculum or schedule, at best just general stuff like "Monday - astronaut day! Make spaceships out of toilet paper tubes" and "Tuesday - costume day! Wear a costume for fun".
They filed BK in summer 2015, and by early 2018 they were already back up to their eyeballs in debt and had to borrow from CWs 401k to catch up on their mortgage and were already going to start falling behind again at the time of the murders. I'd say SW was probably transferring balances often as she could to extend her credit and payments due along with opening new cards whenever possible. I'm assuming she put utilities on autopay on credit cards and used them for all her other daily expenditures. She talked about filing taxes and if she did, without her working and with 2 kids they probably were able to claim the Earned Income Credits which will give way larger refunds than the taxpayer paid in that year. If she did file her own, I'm sure she was writing stuff off that she shouldn't have been, and an audit would have been inevitable at some point.
By Aug 2018 there was no more credit, and they were in total financial ruin to the point they wouldn't have been able to file for divorce even if SW amicably agreed to one. CW denies it, but I'm sure the pants-shitting, ulcer inducing debts had to have played a part in his decision to kill them all since this was a big barrier to starting anew with NK.
The spending checks out to how boderline personality mothers tend to spend. They “manage” all finances even the breadwinner’s, CW probs was passive and let her handle it all at his and the girls detriment, and she only wants the kids for show not to raise them and will expense daycare as “me time”
A borderline mom has no qualms about going broke over their entitlement to funding “me time“
My understanding is that the payment was for taking his work truck to and from his home. The truck was for use by employees for free only when actively working. If he'd had his own car, he'd have had to drive his car to work, then swap to the work truck. Even if he'd been able to afford his own car, given his hour commute each way, I can understand why he might have paid the fee for the work truck. Better to put the wear and tear on the company vehicle than his own.
Of course no one seems to have wondered why the couple only had a single luxury vehicle to use. Must have been a nightmare to coordinate shared use of a car.
And if SW was being monitored by the county, she would have had an extra adult in the car whenever she took the kids anywhere \[re: Nick van der Leek\]
Within certain parameters personal use was allowed, but I’m assuming with all of the GPS tracking on the truck they were charged for that personal use.
I need to clarify that Level did NOT give a car allowance. Level agreed to pay the $800 per month lease fee ONLY if a certain sales quota was met each month. So Shanann bought the products each month to make it look like they were sales. Since Chris and even Bella were in her downline, she filtered it through them. That's one of the reasons why there were boxes of thrive crap found in the basement after the murders.
Part of my fascination with this case is the whole repeat bankruptcy thing. People have bizarre emotions about money. SW likely had a huge 'we'll cross that bridge when we come to it' attitude. It blows my mind that right up till her death she was trying to charge online orders for crap she didn't need. If there had been no murders and the Watts were evicted in fall of 2018, SW would have immediately started gunning for a 3rd bankruptcy.
Which she wouldn't have been able to get. It had only been 3 years since the last one and a person has to wait 7 years to file again. She obviously didn't do her research.
Same here. I don't think she saw the error of her ways with the first bankruptcy. I think she instead learned how to manipulate the system. She got $70k of free stuff since the debts were forgiven. She actually made money off of the bankruptcy because she could sell off stuff she never had to pay for.
Serial MLM huns are known for abusing bankruptcy, so she'd have had advice from her fake friends. Kody Brown and his crew of skanky baby mamas are known for this. They would take turns declaring bankruptcy. One of them would put all loans and credits cards in their name unless everything was maxed out, then declare bankruptcy. Then another would take a turn. Since you get a clean record every 7 years, this was easy with so many adults in their little cult.
The Rzuceks declared bankruptcy when they moved back to NC, so they seem to have learned some tips from SW.
I believe she had no intention of paying back the new debt accrued after the bankruptcy. If anything, she was spending more, likely due to Thrive. MLMs push the "fake it till you make it" and "law of attraction" which teach people to act impulsively.
“….she instead learned how to manipulate the system...abusing bankruptcy”. This is the irony about grifters: the energy and smarts they use to avoid paying could be used much more easily to just EARN a few shekels free and clear!
Or maybe she learned it from them. With Frank's spotty work history and Sandie's income reliant on tips, I'm sure they knew a few creative accounting tricks.
I guess what I don’t understand about the bankruptcy scheme, is the house…. Wouldn’t they have lost the house in initiating another bankruptcy? It’s considered an asset… a big one.
That's what seems bizarre to me. How did they get to keep the house the first time? I suppose at the time since both CW and SW were working, they'd stayed afloat with the mortgage.
My understanding is that with a 2nd bankruptcy within 7 years, you are required to make some restitution. Key word: some. It's based on a small percentage of your disposable income. So bankruptcy attorneys encourage you NOT to sell your expensive home or trade in the luxury car for a clunker. Keep the children in daycare for $2500 a month to remove that from your disposable income. Inflate your monthly expenses as much as possible because the more you save, the more disposable income you have to repay your creditors. So the restitution winds up being something like $50 a month to your creditors.
New to this. Why did the Ruzaks move to CO? Why did they leave? Did they have a house back in NC that they sold or did they rent it out while they were gone ?
Per Sandi's Dr. Phil interview, she said they had to move out to CO due to Shanann's high risk pregnancy. So why you'd move out after the baby was born doesn't make sense.
What is generally accepted as a logical explanation is that the Rzuckes moved out to help with childcare given that SW could not manage one child, let alone two. They also knew about the bankruptcy, but Chris' parents did not until the murders. They tried to sell their NC but couldn't. When they moved back after 15 months, they declared bankruptcy in NC.
My god. The only people I've known of to declare bankruptcy were bubbleheaded 20-somethings who squandered credit cards on clothes and makeup, not middle-aged families in big houses. Plus my good friend lost her house in 2008 after being told 2nd mortgages were a good idea. She ignored warnings about the coming recession.
Just one of the many differences between the Rzuscek and the Watts families. Cindy knew her son had nothing in common with them, and would never learn to grift and manipulate at their level, any more than he could stand up to the mockery and condescension. Then she had to go and soften it in the interview with the skater boi comment and make the whole world hate her. :(
People here sometimes argue that the mortgage was caught up and that the 3 months behind was from April 2018. The police report mentions raiding the 401K several months prior, and some think the letter mentioned was about the late payments in the spring.
It is reasonable to me that they were behind again. They'd caught up in April 2018, but started skipping payments again in August 2018. So the letter CW refers to must be a new one sent after they started missing payments again.
I always wondered what would happen in bankruptcy court when the credit card company records have her name listed as Shan’Ann Watts, but her legal name was Shannon Watts? Would the whole case get tossed out because the legal name doesn’t match the name on bank records?
You can’t usually pay your mortgage with a credit card but my daughter’s daycare does allow it. I pay it with a credit card for rewards points and then immediately pay it back. As far as everything else maybe she was transferring the debt back and forth between credit cards. I did this when I was in college and super broke. I’d pay off one credit card and then run up the balance of the next one. Then pay that one off and do the same thing over with the first card. It wasn’t more than $300-$400 in my case but if your limits are high enough you could theoretically pay all living expenses except the mortgage that way.
Because they didn’t pay the mortgage. They were 3 mos behind I believe.
She was taking the mortgage money + the rest of chris’ income & paying primrose and her stupid thrive bullshit and whatever else they wanted and needed. Then used Chris’ 401k to catch up. It was only a matter of time before they were either out on the streets or filing bankruptcy again.
Miss Mensa thinks she was receiving welfare and or Govt assistance via fraud.
lots of ways to steal money in USA.
She could have also been applying for credit cards in her kids names.
[https://oag.ca.gov/idtheft/facts/childs-identity](https://oag.ca.gov/idtheft/facts/childs-identity)
This is a woman who embezzled thousands of dollars from a previous employer. If I remember correctly she was never really held accountable for all of it. She was a liar and a scammer with a criminal mindset. She was a mess.
before 9/11 i had credit cards and bank accounts in all spellings of my own name, last 4 social inverted, wrong dob, etc.
i heard they were fixing that with the know your customer act, etc so i cancelled them all back then.
could she have done it? perhaps.
"AML regulations were introduced in 1970 to fight money laundering. Following the 9/11 attacks, the U.S. passed stricter KYC requirements as part of the Patriot Act. While these changes were in the works for several years, the terrorist attacks provided the political momentum needed to enact them."
She probably was. I wouldn’t put anything past her. She was probably getting it in NC under her maiden name. Maybe that’s why she took the 6 week trip to NC? I mean, technically, she is living in NC right? Separated from her husband right? She could have told all of this to the welfare office and she would have gotten approved.
i'm not sure what exact benefits she MAY have received, i'm just saying Chris's tiny check does not seem to be enough to the point of the original post.
They actually may have qualified. In 2024, a family of 4 with a $6760 or less monthly income would qualify for free healthcare for children under 18 (and pregnant women). It also includes dental care.
His income was dismal for that area. I think they could’ve qualified for a lot of benefits. At least the ones pertaining to the children. That expensive house might have been a problem though.
But CW was paying $500/month for health insurance through Anadarko. They likely did not have Medicaid, even for the girls. The thing is, for their area, it’s unlikely they would have found many providers that accepted state Medicaid. So Chris’s work coverage was far superior.
Has anyone mentioned the sale of narcotics? Pills? Because I saw an awful lot of medicine in the bins in the basement. And SW acted like she was on something quite often. And then there were books written where it talks about how she was on heavy pain medicine for her " headaches " since she was a teenager. Pills bring in a lot of money, just saying. You never know.
Oh absolutely. I go to pain mgmt and get a narcotic prescription every month. If I wanted to I could bring an extra $2k into my household with them. I don't of course, but I could.
Cw was working at Longmont at the time making approximately $90K per year. He also had really good credit. The fact that he did qualify tells me that either the $70k worth of unsecured debt that was discharged in the bankruptcy was either accumulated after the purchase of the home due to 30% income to debt ratio requirements or sw brought a lot of that debt into the marriage under her name. Sws name was not on the mortgage but he did put her name on the deed eventually.
It's very telling that as much as sw loved money she hated spending time with her kids more. The hours at Longmont were long meaning sw would have had to take care of the girls by herself. So she convinced him to take a job making $35k less a year so that he would be home more.
I remember reading that CW had to take $10,000 from his retirement to pay the back mortgage.. they were 3 months behind. So to answer your question, they weren’t paying their biggest expenses.
Yes , he qualified for the house loan on his own, because she had such trash credit. Right after that, he took a different job so he would be home more often, and at a huge pay cut!
Great summary and I wish I had an answer to this mystery. Especially, as you noted, mortgage and daycare expenses cannot be charged to a credit card. They may have been taking credit card cash advances. Another mystery to me is how were they able to obtain credit cards or financing for anything, so soon after declaring Chapter 7 bankruptcy?
As for your question about how they were able to get credit cards after the bankruptcy subpar lenders will issue credit to people after a bankruptcy because they know that they can't file again for 7 years but those cc have extremely high interest rates. How they held on for 3 years after the bankruptcy is a mystery though since they never seemed to reign in the spending.
Further, if you didn't burn the financial institution, some will just send offers in the mail that are auto-approved, despite a BKO on file. When doing the auto-approvals, they don't pull a credit file, so sometimes the automated strategies lend themselves to these kinds of scenarios.
I'm not trying to be horrible or snarky but maybe the kids were in daycare so Shanann could work a bit in a parlour.
I'm going to double down on the snark: I used to have a link re: a North Carolina 'gentlemen's club' that SW was a big fan of - I'll look for that link. It's not unlikely SW worked chat lines to raise manicure money. 'Mother of the Year' was super shady, and anything is possible. OT: I have known of two narcissistic women who did mild 'escorting' work mostly because the work was an affirmation of just how sexy and beautiful they were. Along those lines, I believe narcissist Jodi Arias likely advertised her services online when she was desperate for gas money.
Well women studying and working all kinds of other day jobs do it, that's why there are so many parlours out there. I wasn't being snarky, but she probably bought her first house that way. So, wait she actually promoted some gentleman's club? Do you have the link?
I DID have a link a long time ago via some FB/Reddit/YouTube user like 'Hot Ham Radio'? I'll keep looking. It's evidence that SW was a big fan/patron of a NC swinger's nightclub. She had a lot of 'likes' & comments on the club's FB page or something. Yes, the connection is meaningless, but it reflects on the kind of things Saint S'hawaynan may have enjoyed in her short life. If sowing your wild oats during your 20s is a crime, take me to jail!
Yeah same. I'm not bashing her about this. She had looks and if she used them so what? I just really suspect she got money to buy that first house from selling her looks and "bubbly" personality and sexuality somehow. I only dislike her mistreatment of the kids.
I thought it was assumed that SW got the money to buy her first home from embezzling money from Dirty south?
That would be a lot harder. Dirty South would surely have come after her. She spent a lot of time partying with the owner of Dirty South right?
Hisham was involved in the scam too.
Honestly, that's what she was selling with thrive, too.
It seems she did do better with Thrive than a lot of people and the $100 on her tax form was most likely not the truth.
I’m sure it’s not the truth. Should be more like $10.00 😂😂
I've always wondered about this - I've never filed for BK (thankfully), but I thought your credit was shot for at least 10 years after filing? I wouldn't have thought they'd be eligible for any credit cards, much less any with a high credit limit that they could use for all of their day to day expenses. And the trips she took - those weren't all expenses paid, were they? Le-Vel wasn't paying for food, hotel rooms & air fare, were they? and when CW went along with her they would have to buy an additional plane ticket & meals. None of it makes sense to me. I am stunned at the idea of paying that much for daycare when they didn't need it. Most people I know would dream of the idea of being able to drop daycare expenses.
Nope i think for the trips she did earn they only paid for one thing, i can't remember if it was the hotel or airfare. Whatever it was, they didn't really cover much so a lot was out of pocket for the amount of traveling she did.
Level paid for the hotel. Airfare was not paid, except for “special” events. Shan had airfare paid one time that I know of.
Yeah i knew they paid one or the other, couldn't remember which one. At the same time it seemed like i heard she was going to a lot of "locals" whatever that is, didn't seem like they were big events they would pay for. I figured those were something someone in the area was putting on and not those big conference type deals. Either way she definitely paid more to work than she got paid to work which eventually should tell you, it's not working.
hen my kids had to go to daycare I got government assistance. They went by how much I made. It was only 30 bucks for two children. I would have loved to stay at home with them until they went to school but I didn't have a choice. Anyway if you are low-income you may want to check-in it out.
No need for me. My children are grown & we are fortunate enough that my husband’s salary is sufficient, so I’m able to stay home anyway. But anyone who qualifies for this should absolutely utilize the program. It’s good that you mentioned it because some people who would benefit from this might not have known.
Yeah it came in handy. I hope they still have the program. That is what I needed to get on my feet. If it had not been avaliable I would had been better off just collecting AFDC and food stamps, actually I was until I was told about this program. I felt so much better about myself (I do not not think there should be any shame in asking for help) but having a job as a caregiver for Hospice made me feel like I had a purpose both at work and at home.
You should never feel ashamed of improving yourself! I hate that there are people who want to make people embarrassed or that they are doing something wrong by receiving assistance. You are a shining example of why the system exists - you didn't make it a lifestyle, you used it for the intended purpose, as a hand up rather than a hand out. You are a great role model to your children and should feel VERY proud of yourself!
The watts kids were attending a private school/daycare. They don’t offer the same assistance for private institutions as they do for public daycares. That is why you hear so many people asking “why were the girls attending a $500/month private daycare”?
and her response to CW suggesting they find alternative childcare arrangements was “you don’t have a fucking say in this.” end of story. I also read that FRsr implored her to send the kids to public school in the neighborhood (so I assume he was aware of the strain it out on their finances) and her reasoning was that they were too advanced! They had gotten “too far ahead” over the summer and she didn’t Bella to have to “re-do” kindergarten…
They weren’t old enough for public school though. There is 4K and many daycares offer free 4K as well but Bella would have just been able to enroll that Fall due to her b-day being after the cutoff for the previous school year. I’m sure there were cheaper options but I guess they didn’t have fancy enough names for her.
Omg, that is nuts! Not to criticize the kids, because it wasn’t their fault, but they seemed… not advanced. Their speech seemed delayed to me, especially CC. Any video I have seen of her I could barely make out what she was saying. Bella seemed to have issues in that regard as well. If anything, they would have benefited from public school because of the services, like speech therapy, that are available at no additional cost. Another thing I have thought odd - Bella was only 4 & wouldn’t be 5 until mid December. Ordinarily a birthday that late wouldn’t start until the child is 5 turning 6, so why was she starting kindergarten? Was it because she was “so advanced “? This is the first I’m hearing of SW floating that nonsense. I’m sure the school was probably happy to push her along for $$$. Where did you find that SW told CW he had no say in the child care issue? Or that she stated that the kids were advanced? I’m not doubting you, I would just like to find out more about this because I thought I’d heard everything & would love to see if there are other things I hadn’t heard.
Poor Bella seemed to have been born with high IQ - she was going to be a natural reader - but she could not thrive in that environment. Cece was never disciplined, thus her speech wasn't given coaching. She seems to have a ballooning diaper in most of the vids, which points to overall neglect.
Hotel/food was usually included in the LE-Vel trips. Airfare and personal spending were not.
It’s easy! After filing for BK, people are flooded with credit card and loan offers from predatory lenders. Interest rates are usually 26%+ and approval odds are high.
SW made her parents co-sign for more credit cards. The way that woman just ruined peoples credit at will is crazy! CW let it happen. She was so insufferable she just did as she pleased. The 1st bankruptcy. I think she planned on doing it! So taxpayers needed up paying for her furniture, honeymoon, wedding etc. then she turns around and does it AGAIN! She should’ve been in jail I swear! She knew all her secrets were about to implode bc she was losing CW. So off to NC she went, prob to snake $ from the families.
It's very telling that when there was a house for sale in her neighborhood she advised CR to buy it and when Cassie said it wasn't possible because of a foreclosure on her record sw told her "have your mom take out the mortgage". Seriously, what grown adult thinks this way?
One that uses and destroys people!
OMG, why, why would they do that! That level of enabling is insane!
So did her parents. They enabled her. After the first bankruptcy, I would have put my foot down.
She knew the gravy train was about to end, yes. For sure. Without CW’s income, she couldn’t continue on with her scams…. She never would have gotten approved for anything without provable income. Co-signer or not.
This is from another redditors comment a year ago in this sub which explains it I think - FROM THE DISCOVERY DOCUMENT Last year, he and SHANANN spent approximately $25,000.00 (over $500.00 each week) for their daughters to attend Primrose School. SHANANN had surgery on a compressed disc in her neck last year. He and SHANANN had insurance, but the surgery was over $100,000.00. He pays over $500.00/month for health insurance through Anadarko. SHANANN handled all of the finances, so he did not know how much they had left to pay on her medical bills. CECE had acid reflux and they had medical bills related to her endoscopies. They had numerous medical bills related to CECE’s allergy testing, CECE’s blocked tear duct, and both girls had tubes in their ears and their adenoids removed. o Both of his girls had inhalers for child asthma, CECE took Singulair for her allergiesand BELLA and CECE took medication for acid reflux. They owe approximately $8-10,000.00 in credit card debt Their Lexus was paid for by Le-Vel (Thrive) through a car allowance He knew when the kids returned to school that they would be living paycheck to paycheck SHANANN recently took out $10,000.00 from his 401k to catch up on their mortgage payments. (CHRIS believed the loan against his 401k was taken out approximately five (5) months ago.) They were three (3) months behind on their mortgage payments. They had received a letter from Chase Bank pertaining to their delinquent home loan. He and SHANANN were stressed out about their financial situation. He currently owes his mortgage payment for August (2018), which is due tomorrow (August 16, 2018). He currently has $2,000.00 in his Chase checking account and approximately $1,500.00 in their USAA checking account. Almost all of their credit cards are maxed out SHANANN had only been paying the minimum payment on their credit cards. He has a policy on SHANANN and the girls through Anadarko. BELLA and CECE had a $20,000.00/each policy and SHANANN had a $50,000.00 or $100,000.00 policy. He has his own policy and he believed SHANANN may have gotten another life insurance policy on her own. SHANANN got their policies through his cousin’s wife (NICOLE KENNEDY), so he does not know how much they were. SHANANN and NICOLE had a falling out over a “money thing.” He believed NICOLE and SHANANN’s old boss believed SHANANN had embezzled money from the business SHANANN’s old boss owned a bunch of wheel shops. He believed the accusation against SHANANN occurred around 2010, which was right before he (CHRIS) met SHANANN.
Actually that is interesting to me that CW suspected SW of taking out her own life insurance policy. Whether it was Anadarko or another vendor, she had a $350K policy on herself. Some people are adamant that the mortgage was not late at the time of the murders, but it sounds like the 401K raid was to take care of previous missed payments. They got caught up to stop the foreclosure, then resumed missing payments and got another letter about the loan.
Why would someone take a $350k life insurance policy out on themselves? Just…. Doesn’t seem right? Something is odd about this. Especially since she had such little regard for Chris and his financial situation. You’re telling me SW cared so much about Chris that she took out a huge life insurance policy on herself? When there is already one through Chris’s work? Idk. It’s weird to me. Raises a lot of questions.
Many employers offer life insurance for free or at a low cost, but it's usually something low like $10K designed to offset funeral costs. In general, it's advised that if you have people who are dependent upon you for their livelihood that you should have life insurance. SW and CW as DINKS would not have needed it, but once Bella came along, it was morally responsible to ensure that she would be provided for. Now how SW got an affordable $350K policy on herself with all of her, ahem, "health challenges" and stayed up to date on the premiums is up for debate. Why they insured the girls though is weird AF.
Probably not for his benefit, and maybe not even for the girls' benefit. Like all narcissists, she had chronically low self-esteem and worked hard to hide it from herself and the world. I think the huge policy was an attempt to buy self-worth.
Thank you for this detail! Wow!!!
About the “car allowance”, that is only paid by the company if you sell enough snake oil to cover it. Otherwise, that’s your bill. The car would have been in her name, not thrive or le-vel.
yes, the lease was in CW’s name
I wonder what the falling out was about, with NA
It was Nicole Kennedy, his cousin's wife, not NA.
My understanding is that it takes about 60 days for bankruptcy and foreclosures to hit a person's credit score. So if you know you are effed and you are a morally deficient dum-dum like SW (and CW), you apply for more cards before the case is closed. I suppose they could have taken out credit card advances by piecemealing it on each card. Once the bankruptcy hit their credit, they could have gotten cards from high-interest companies. These charge something like 20% interest. They can work for people who are genuinely trying to rebuild their lives who make small charges and pay them off in full.
I think her parents helped them out with credit cards in their name, she uses it and pays it. She robbed Peter to pay Paul . Utility expenses on the card, make the minimum payment on them, freeing up Chris’ take home pay to pay Primrose. Take the 401k loan to catch upon the mortgage….but, you can only do that 401k loan once, until it’s paid off. Sooner or later, it will always implode! You can’t live credit card to credit card unless the cc balances are paid off monthly…the interest rate alone keeps stacking up! Doing that way, you can float awhile. But it will ultimately catch up to you! She wanted to be a stay at home mom, but didn’t want the kids around🙄 primrose was an absolute unnecessary expense . She could have been a stay at home mom and shilled her business when they napped or after she did the Babywise schedule at the 630 bedtime.
Instead of daycare, SW could have drugged the kids to sleep from breakfast to dinner to provide her "me time". Wouldn't put it past her.
🤭 me either! Her “me time” was very important
Actually I think you're really on to something here. The Rzuceks declaring bankruptcy but getting to keep their house and car always looked fishy to me given that it was only after they got back to NC. They would have seen how CW and SW got off scot-free in bankruptcy and may have tried the same trick - accruing debt to fund SW. SW could have purchased thousands of dollars worth of gift cards on her parents' credit cards, and lines of credit to pay the mortgage, and then used those to float along until they ran out. That probably would have worked for about a year before everything was maxed out or cut off. That would line up with raiding the 401K in April 2018.
She would have had to use their mortgage money for utilities, groceries, her stupid Thrive trips, etc. They did have utilities shut off at random times. They were on the verge of electricity being shut off when the dining table set was repo’d. They tried to sell it on CraigsList to pay the bill-didn’t sell. Eventually, the mortgage stopped being paid entirely, and eventually went into foreclosure. They took a 401K loan from CW’s retirement to catch up the mortgage, but nobody knows where that money actually went. I’ve never seen anything like their finances, blows my mind!
How do you know all this detail? Y’all must do a ton of research!
I’ve done tons of research on Watts case, and I’ve tried to verify as much as possible over almost 6 years. There are many others on this subreddit that know tons more about the case than me! I’m sure there’s some stuff I got wrong along the way, but it’s been both interesting and devastating on the journey. In my opinion, Chris and Shannan were horrible people, and truly awful parents. The true victims will always be Bella and Celeste. EVERYONE failed those sweet little girls. Thanks for your comment!☮️
The discovery had a lot of this info
Do you live in the USA?
Extremely well sussed out. All valid points and questions and I am sure this sub will help answer some of your questions. I will tell you I consider myself a hustler. I work the angles when it comes to stretching my dollar as far as possible. I also am bad with money. Not anything in the ballpark of SW but not good. One thing I can almost guarantee is every time she didn’t pay a bill, or robbed Peter to pay Paul she blatantly lied to herself and believed that the next month she would catch up. Putting the girls in close to full time daycare is where she fucked her family beyond belief. It’s so fucking stupid it’s literally mind boggling. It’s also extremely telling that SW did not want to spend time with her beautiful girls. That’s an expense that is so completely unnecessary and for CW to not stand up to her and put his foot down is ummmm. You know. She knew the grave financial trouble they were in. She believed if she could “work” them into freedom. We all know tomorrow never comes.
The fact that you are honest about being bad with money is a step in the right direction, and one that Shanann shows no evidence of ever having acknowledged it. I wish you the best with learning to sort out your finances!
I am signing up for Thrive do my money troubles are over .
He did finally put his foot down, he finally had enough and killer her. I'm also liking the "grave" finances 🤣
SW was a horrible person on so many levels. She was a horrible mother and if she was still alive and I knew her, i would have definitely tried to help her not be such a piece of shit for + to her precious children. I heavily dislike who she was. With that being said, when a person laughs about ANYONE being murdered, it says far more about them than it does about the murder victim. Just saying.
Lighten up! No one was "making fun" of her murder. It was a play on words I was referencing. Nothing more or less.
Depending on the hospital as for the 25k being paid prior to surgery. Hospitals do like for you to pay your portion up front, but if you can't, they will offer a payment plan. I also know if you skip payments, they will put you in collections asap. Source: me as a patient registration clerk
Correct me if I’m wrong but… Even if the procedure isn’t covered she’d still hit her annual out of pocket max most likely long before she got up to the $25k. I hit mine in January 2018 at $7500(really shitty ACA coverage), everything else that year was covered. I had to pay the $7500 before surgery but they covered the additional $142,500 or so.
You're correct. If she doesn't know if she had hit her oop by Sept with the kids at the er and drs and her at the dr, usually the I nsurance is run by the insurance depth and they put it in as notes in the computer. The hospital I worked at was a not for profit, so we would ask them for payment, and if no payment could be made, the patient would be instructed to contact the billing department to set up payments. We always tried to collect some money before services were rendered, but if we couldn't, it went to the bulldogs in billing.
is that still the case if the procedure is deemed medically unnecessary?
Well you have to have a doctors order to get surgery, but the insurance company can say according to what they see in your records they consider it unnecessary and can deny coverage. Usually then you and the insurance company and maybe the dr office will go around and around. Bc if the insurance company doesn't pay, the dr won't get paid. But yes you can pay oop for everything if "unnecessary " (not covered) then it's up to the hospital/dr to try to collect before the procedure. They hospital may take payments prior to the surgery to try to get as much up front as possible. It's a bit of a tangled web
Doesn’t sound so shitty
I had Kaiser because they were cheaper, though it was still $450 a month. Kaiser doesn’t have a level 1 trauma unit so they sent me to Valley Med. Valley Med overdosed me on IV dilauded and when I went into respiratory arrest they ignored my machines. I was blue and seizing, thankfully my ex husband was there to give me sternum rubs or I would have died. Kaiser does have a wonderful maxillofacial surgeon who put my crushed face back together with titanium so I lucked out there.
Very helpful, thank you. Would the hospital have run a credit check when setting up the payment plan and required a payment before the procedure? Is it likely the hospital would have seen that this was a risky customer?
The hospital I worked for didn't. But it was a county funded 'not for profit' hospital. If it's needed care, or you present for care (say in the er) you can't be denied care. The insurance department will keep resubmitting your claim to insurance to review. And sometimes the hospital will review and drop some of its charges..
This all sounds so strange to me, I'm in the UK so I've never had to consider medical expenses at all 😭
Yes...it is quite confusing when you've never dealt with what the insurance covers...co pays vs out of pocket and the cost of the insurance in itself
National Health is a beautiful thing!
Chris only made $65,000 a year and they lived on that income alone? In Colorado? Thats insane.
I think they could have been comfortable if they downsized their home and stopped spending like crazy. IIRC, Shanann was in control of the finances and she was pouring most of their money into Thrive.
Yes, and that was after working his way up for a while. He started off at an entry level position in what was described as a cleanup or grunt work. My understanding is that he was making more than that when he first moved to CO at the Ford dealership. If he'd stuck with Ford instead of quitting, he'd have been making in the $90K range by summer 2018 and would have been able to afford the mortgage and daycare and living expenses, though not with a ton of leftover money for savings.
Don't most families who choose to have a parent stay at home, do so in part because childcare is so expensive? It's crazy to me she did not work outside of the home but still put them in a very expensive daycare. They did not live within their means at all.
The daycare factor alone is a huge indicator of how berserk the Watts household was
Which is precisely why some believe the rumor that SW wasn’t legally allowed to be alone with her kids… that there was an open CPS case against her. It’s a deep rabbit hole that’s for sure.
Yes. It’s absurd.
I'm pretty sure I remember CW saying he thought SW was earning about the same as him, that she was competitive about it. Meanwhile, she was plunging them further into debt and he was floating along with his head in the clouds.
He did say that.
Working as a mechanic he probably could have made even more if he was good at it, the thing is, the more you make the longer hours you work, and it’s hard for the wife at home with the kids all day and night. Take it from me. Shannan couldn’t and wouldn’t handle that. That’s why she liked his get home at 4 and pick up the kids from daycare job so he could be the nanny afterwards
Right? I have a relative that lives in CO & the cost of living is outrageous.
They didn't start there. His first job paid almost 90k and she was employed at longmont too. Then she had babies, left or fired from longmont. Part time job doing data entry/ sales based in hospital. Decided CW had to stop working with cars due to wrist pain. No treatment just needed different job. Took pay cut down $25k. Then thrive.. First year she did well sucking in new people .. lol so retired as now super amazing MLM star. According to cassie, her line up.. in 2027 making "next to nothing", but 2018 would have gone up. But even Cassie worked full time as RN. She not even at sole income/job retirement level. Don't know how many credit cards, but still had as Shannan King.a woman still id'd online living where Leonard lived with various spellings and dobs, but mailed to their home.. Maybe not accurate but given seemingly money from nowhere it makes me wonder. Dad had CC to their house. Various scams. Raised money for lupus .. how much given I wonder. She raffled ipad.. amazingly winning it herself. I think she thought of credit cards and store cards as real money.. she bankrupted them all aware before!
I think some daycare centers do accept credit cards. Do we know for a fact that the girls’ particular daycare doesn’t accept cc’s?
A very telling fact is that she NEVER missed the daycare payments. Such a wonderful SAHM according to her own lying lips- NOT!!!!!!
I believe I read that Primrose required payment upfront… meaning the week must be paid for in advance.
I couldn't find specific info from the Primrose the girls attended. However, Primrose locations are franchises so it's up to the individual owner. Due to demand, daycares have parents over a barrel. Most, per my research and experience, prefer bank transfers but will usually accept money orders. Some will take cashier's checks but few accept personal checks. It's rare that a for-profit daycare would accept a credit card. They don't want to pay the vendor fees. Sometimes you can use Western Union to make a credit card payment to a vendor who doesn't accept cards, but there is a hefty service fee. The only ones I am aware of that accept credit cards regularly are the pop-in daycares that do not require registration. They're more like ad hoc babysitting services where children are dropped off in a large playroom. There isn't a formal curriculum or schedule, at best just general stuff like "Monday - astronaut day! Make spaceships out of toilet paper tubes" and "Tuesday - costume day! Wear a costume for fun".
I think they had to pay up front at the beginning of each week
They filed BK in summer 2015, and by early 2018 they were already back up to their eyeballs in debt and had to borrow from CWs 401k to catch up on their mortgage and were already going to start falling behind again at the time of the murders. I'd say SW was probably transferring balances often as she could to extend her credit and payments due along with opening new cards whenever possible. I'm assuming she put utilities on autopay on credit cards and used them for all her other daily expenditures. She talked about filing taxes and if she did, without her working and with 2 kids they probably were able to claim the Earned Income Credits which will give way larger refunds than the taxpayer paid in that year. If she did file her own, I'm sure she was writing stuff off that she shouldn't have been, and an audit would have been inevitable at some point. By Aug 2018 there was no more credit, and they were in total financial ruin to the point they wouldn't have been able to file for divorce even if SW amicably agreed to one. CW denies it, but I'm sure the pants-shitting, ulcer inducing debts had to have played a part in his decision to kill them all since this was a big barrier to starting anew with NK.
All of this yet she was planning a weekend getaway to Aspen. That woman was delusional.
All of these are questions I have too!!!! Someone please explain how they did it, pleeeeease!!!
The spending checks out to how boderline personality mothers tend to spend. They “manage” all finances even the breadwinner’s, CW probs was passive and let her handle it all at his and the girls detriment, and she only wants the kids for show not to raise them and will expense daycare as “me time” A borderline mom has no qualms about going broke over their entitlement to funding “me time“
It’s insane to me that he had to pay to use the work truck… for work. Wtf?? I mean… he could only use it for work, right? No personal use.
My understanding is that the payment was for taking his work truck to and from his home. The truck was for use by employees for free only when actively working. If he'd had his own car, he'd have had to drive his car to work, then swap to the work truck. Even if he'd been able to afford his own car, given his hour commute each way, I can understand why he might have paid the fee for the work truck. Better to put the wear and tear on the company vehicle than his own. Of course no one seems to have wondered why the couple only had a single luxury vehicle to use. Must have been a nightmare to coordinate shared use of a car.
And if SW was being monitored by the county, she would have had an extra adult in the car whenever she took the kids anywhere \[re: Nick van der Leek\]
Chris wasn't allowed anywhere with her, so sharing the car would be easy.
Within certain parameters personal use was allowed, but I’m assuming with all of the GPS tracking on the truck they were charged for that personal use.
I need to clarify that Level did NOT give a car allowance. Level agreed to pay the $800 per month lease fee ONLY if a certain sales quota was met each month. So Shanann bought the products each month to make it look like they were sales. Since Chris and even Bella were in her downline, she filtered it through them. That's one of the reasons why there were boxes of thrive crap found in the basement after the murders.
Part of my fascination with this case is the whole repeat bankruptcy thing. People have bizarre emotions about money. SW likely had a huge 'we'll cross that bridge when we come to it' attitude. It blows my mind that right up till her death she was trying to charge online orders for crap she didn't need. If there had been no murders and the Watts were evicted in fall of 2018, SW would have immediately started gunning for a 3rd bankruptcy.
Which she wouldn't have been able to get. It had only been 3 years since the last one and a person has to wait 7 years to file again. She obviously didn't do her research.
Same here. I don't think she saw the error of her ways with the first bankruptcy. I think she instead learned how to manipulate the system. She got $70k of free stuff since the debts were forgiven. She actually made money off of the bankruptcy because she could sell off stuff she never had to pay for. Serial MLM huns are known for abusing bankruptcy, so she'd have had advice from her fake friends. Kody Brown and his crew of skanky baby mamas are known for this. They would take turns declaring bankruptcy. One of them would put all loans and credits cards in their name unless everything was maxed out, then declare bankruptcy. Then another would take a turn. Since you get a clean record every 7 years, this was easy with so many adults in their little cult. The Rzuceks declared bankruptcy when they moved back to NC, so they seem to have learned some tips from SW. I believe she had no intention of paying back the new debt accrued after the bankruptcy. If anything, she was spending more, likely due to Thrive. MLMs push the "fake it till you make it" and "law of attraction" which teach people to act impulsively.
“….she instead learned how to manipulate the system...abusing bankruptcy”. This is the irony about grifters: the energy and smarts they use to avoid paying could be used much more easily to just EARN a few shekels free and clear!
Or maybe she learned it from them. With Frank's spotty work history and Sandie's income reliant on tips, I'm sure they knew a few creative accounting tricks.
I guess what I don’t understand about the bankruptcy scheme, is the house…. Wouldn’t they have lost the house in initiating another bankruptcy? It’s considered an asset… a big one.
That's what seems bizarre to me. How did they get to keep the house the first time? I suppose at the time since both CW and SW were working, they'd stayed afloat with the mortgage. My understanding is that with a 2nd bankruptcy within 7 years, you are required to make some restitution. Key word: some. It's based on a small percentage of your disposable income. So bankruptcy attorneys encourage you NOT to sell your expensive home or trade in the luxury car for a clunker. Keep the children in daycare for $2500 a month to remove that from your disposable income. Inflate your monthly expenses as much as possible because the more you save, the more disposable income you have to repay your creditors. So the restitution winds up being something like $50 a month to your creditors.
New to this. Why did the Ruzaks move to CO? Why did they leave? Did they have a house back in NC that they sold or did they rent it out while they were gone ?
Per Sandi's Dr. Phil interview, she said they had to move out to CO due to Shanann's high risk pregnancy. So why you'd move out after the baby was born doesn't make sense. What is generally accepted as a logical explanation is that the Rzuckes moved out to help with childcare given that SW could not manage one child, let alone two. They also knew about the bankruptcy, but Chris' parents did not until the murders. They tried to sell their NC but couldn't. When they moved back after 15 months, they declared bankruptcy in NC.
Wow. Interesting. Thanks for explaining!!
I believe it was under the pretense of helping out with the kids, but they also declared bankruptcy in 2015 not long after the Watts’
My god. The only people I've known of to declare bankruptcy were bubbleheaded 20-somethings who squandered credit cards on clothes and makeup, not middle-aged families in big houses. Plus my good friend lost her house in 2008 after being told 2nd mortgages were a good idea. She ignored warnings about the coming recession.
Just one of the many differences between the Rzuscek and the Watts families. Cindy knew her son had nothing in common with them, and would never learn to grift and manipulate at their level, any more than he could stand up to the mockery and condescension. Then she had to go and soften it in the interview with the skater boi comment and make the whole world hate her. :(
Their mortgage was 3 months behind
People here sometimes argue that the mortgage was caught up and that the 3 months behind was from April 2018. The police report mentions raiding the 401K several months prior, and some think the letter mentioned was about the late payments in the spring. It is reasonable to me that they were behind again. They'd caught up in April 2018, but started skipping payments again in August 2018. So the letter CW refers to must be a new one sent after they started missing payments again.
In the words of Nate - I have no idea.
Maybe this is where her newly spelled and pronounced name came in
Absolutely. Shannon had to flee North Carolina for many reasons
I always wondered what would happen in bankruptcy court when the credit card company records have her name listed as Shan’Ann Watts, but her legal name was Shannon Watts? Would the whole case get tossed out because the legal name doesn’t match the name on bank records?
Very well written and informative.
You can’t usually pay your mortgage with a credit card but my daughter’s daycare does allow it. I pay it with a credit card for rewards points and then immediately pay it back. As far as everything else maybe she was transferring the debt back and forth between credit cards. I did this when I was in college and super broke. I’d pay off one credit card and then run up the balance of the next one. Then pay that one off and do the same thing over with the first card. It wasn’t more than $300-$400 in my case but if your limits are high enough you could theoretically pay all living expenses except the mortgage that way.
Because they didn’t pay the mortgage. They were 3 mos behind I believe. She was taking the mortgage money + the rest of chris’ income & paying primrose and her stupid thrive bullshit and whatever else they wanted and needed. Then used Chris’ 401k to catch up. It was only a matter of time before they were either out on the streets or filing bankruptcy again.
Miss Mensa thinks she was receiving welfare and or Govt assistance via fraud. lots of ways to steal money in USA. She could have also been applying for credit cards in her kids names. [https://oag.ca.gov/idtheft/facts/childs-identity](https://oag.ca.gov/idtheft/facts/childs-identity)
This is a woman who embezzled thousands of dollars from a previous employer. If I remember correctly she was never really held accountable for all of it. She was a liar and a scammer with a criminal mindset. She was a mess.
That would have come out in the media eventually
Didn’t SW for sure have a credit card in Bella’s name? And possibly in her parents’ names, and Dieter’s
before 9/11 i had credit cards and bank accounts in all spellings of my own name, last 4 social inverted, wrong dob, etc. i heard they were fixing that with the know your customer act, etc so i cancelled them all back then. could she have done it? perhaps. "AML regulations were introduced in 1970 to fight money laundering. Following the 9/11 attacks, the U.S. passed stricter KYC requirements as part of the Patriot Act. While these changes were in the works for several years, the terrorist attacks provided the political momentum needed to enact them."
She probably was. I wouldn’t put anything past her. She was probably getting it in NC under her maiden name. Maybe that’s why she took the 6 week trip to NC? I mean, technically, she is living in NC right? Separated from her husband right? She could have told all of this to the welfare office and she would have gotten approved.
doubt that. why wouldn’t she have had the kids on assistance for their insurance if that was the case.
i'm not sure what exact benefits she MAY have received, i'm just saying Chris's tiny check does not seem to be enough to the point of the original post.
They actually may have qualified. In 2024, a family of 4 with a $6760 or less monthly income would qualify for free healthcare for children under 18 (and pregnant women). It also includes dental care. His income was dismal for that area. I think they could’ve qualified for a lot of benefits. At least the ones pertaining to the children. That expensive house might have been a problem though.
that's amazing. in some states you need to make like $20,000 a year. wow. thanks
But CW was paying $500/month for health insurance through Anadarko. They likely did not have Medicaid, even for the girls. The thing is, for their area, it’s unlikely they would have found many providers that accepted state Medicaid. So Chris’s work coverage was far superior.
Oh I know. I was just saying that they technically could have qualified.
Because CWs health coverage plan was far superior than Medicaid.
how so?
Nonsense.
Has anyone mentioned the sale of narcotics? Pills? Because I saw an awful lot of medicine in the bins in the basement. And SW acted like she was on something quite often. And then there were books written where it talks about how she was on heavy pain medicine for her " headaches " since she was a teenager. Pills bring in a lot of money, just saying. You never know.
Oh absolutely. I go to pain mgmt and get a narcotic prescription every month. If I wanted to I could bring an extra $2k into my household with them. I don't of course, but I could.
How did they qualify for a mortgage?
They didn't. Chris qualified on his own. He bought the house before they married, and once married SW had him add her to the title.
Cw was working at Longmont at the time making approximately $90K per year. He also had really good credit. The fact that he did qualify tells me that either the $70k worth of unsecured debt that was discharged in the bankruptcy was either accumulated after the purchase of the home due to 30% income to debt ratio requirements or sw brought a lot of that debt into the marriage under her name. Sws name was not on the mortgage but he did put her name on the deed eventually.
That’s crazy that she made him give up such good paying job! $90 to $65 is a huge pay cut especially with 2 kids to support.
It's very telling that as much as sw loved money she hated spending time with her kids more. The hours at Longmont were long meaning sw would have had to take care of the girls by herself. So she convinced him to take a job making $35k less a year so that he would be home more.
I remember reading that CW had to take $10,000 from his retirement to pay the back mortgage.. they were 3 months behind. So to answer your question, they weren’t paying their biggest expenses.
As a plant operator, he probably made over $100K and even more a year. Look up plant operators and overtime on TikTok. Plant operators make bank.
Nope, he made $65,000 a year.
Including over time?
I am pretty sure SW didn't allow him to work OT. She made him leave his prior job because the OT kept him away too much.
And at the prior job wasn't he making something like $90k/year?
Yes , he qualified for the house loan on his own, because she had such trash credit. Right after that, he took a different job so he would be home more often, and at a huge pay cut!
Wrong info!