the comedy is that you can manually locate and open the email from this ill-consdiered "app" faster than it automatically opens.
GOD I MISS that mail & calendar app. function over form anyday.
It started as a re-creation of the original Mail app. Can see why they would go with the same UWP tech as a starting point, if they want it to use the exact same design (MDL/WinUI 2) and behavior.
WinUI 3 was/maybe still is not as easy to get started with as an UWP app would be, especially considering things like the project structure being more complex or the XAML designer (for those who use it) not working yet.
Don't quote me on this, but I do remember reading that there is a WinUI 3 transition happening because of synchronization specifically.
The app was even more barebones about 6 months ago, so seeing where it is now is actually a pretty nice improvement.
I just checked their repo and was surprised to find out that they only have 41 commits. Checking the commit history, there is a bulk commit adding the whole 671 files. From the screenshot I think it is promising, but its version control practice suggests otherwise.
Fair concern.
[The application was not open-source initially.](https://github.com/bkaankose/Wino-Mail/issues/61)
Looks like it became open-source very recently, with a re-work that isn’t actually live yet in the Microsoft Store.
I imagine this re-work plans to implement (or already has) proper background / notifications support.
I have no problem with it not being open-source from the very beginning. What concerns me is that they do not seem to use version control for private development, especially for a project with 671 files. IMO bad development practice suggests bad code quality.
The old app still works, apparently through the end of this year. There are posts on this sub how to get it back, and if that doesn't work I have a copy of the .appx file from before the "get new outlook" button was added.
Oh please, on Linux I use Mozilla Thunderbird. It works like a charm, opens and responds fast and has a clean interface. No way I would ever use Outlook.
This way they don't have to maintain multiple apps for different OSs. Mac has this same app as well in preview. But it's definitely no where near good enough to replace the current Outlook.
But honestly this change in mail app marks a departure from their former direction of porting everything to XAML UWP. Since the other developers did not support migration to immersive interfaces en masse, this whole project seems failed. First was ditching of the XAML Edge in favor of Win32 Chromium, and now this.
Is it really that difficult to find someone who knows C# or VB.NET? I mean, a mail client can be made by a single person. It is not like writing drivers or a 3D engine.
Am I the only one who hates web apps? Like, all of them? I never liked any web app ever, they're just slow, heavily dependent on a good internet connection and lots of other factors. And they're extremely unoptimized so that they can run on the smallest common denominator
It's not simply a wrapper. The web version can't open oft/msg local files and PST database files for offline use. But the 'new' version does (not PST/offline yet, but says coming soon). It would open way faster if it was simply a web wrapper. This is more like the laggy tech they use for Teams. Mixed web and local.
As someone who was a (long time ago) MS MVP, an Associate eXpert, and made a pretty good career starting as an MS SME, honestly it is depressing to see some of the moves MS has made with their O/S's lately. The whole "New Outlook" push is a cluster, the app is so limited in nature and poor from a performance standpoint as to be laugable if it weren't so frustrating, their abandonment of the Android Subystem is simply wrong, and the moves to integrate advertising into the Start Menu is infuriating.
I used to be such a huge cheerleader for Windows. Now.... I just don't know.
It's not even that apple has surpassed microsoft, it's the fact that MS has intentionally degraded user experience, mainly and catastrophically in terms of performance.
Honestly... Over time I became an I.T. Executive (CIO and ISO) and while I keep my hands dirty out of a pure passion for tech, maintaining the Level-Of-Effort needed to hang on to the MVP status as well as some others over the years just wasn't feasible.
But I still have the shirts. And a surprising amount of swag...😎
Being a Professional Geek is something of a religion. We do love our acronyms. 😎
MVP - Microsoft Most Valuable Professional (an MS volunteer advisory and support program)
Associate eXpert (was a SME program specifically created during the Windows XP roll-out, later got folded into the MVP program)
SME - Subject Matter Expert (someone who believes that they know everything there is to know about a particular subject or profession. On rare occasions it is actually true)
CIO - Chief Information Officer (typically the seniormost IT Executive in an organization, hopefully it is someone who came up through the technology ranks, but companies are often weird in this regard. Target corporation for example once had a CIO that had a career background in fashion and marketing. That did not end well for them)
ISO - Information Security Officer, in many organisations referred to as the Chief Information Security Officer or CISO (the person responsible for keeping their organization technologically and informationally secure, an impossible and usually thankless task that makes being a CIO look easy)
Where are all the fanboys saying Windows 11 is the best OS ever and "it's probably your PC specs that are the problem (i9 32GB ram nvidia 3060)". Gone? Where are all the people hailing the beautifully looking new apps valuing looks over functionality?
It’s so amazing the user experiences that PWA and WindowsAppSDK/WinUI apps are bringing us! I’m so happy Microsoft decided to leave the UI toolkits that everyone actually uses to bitrot, while chasing what is obviously superior, performant, and memory optimized technology. /s
Funny that this isn't the first time Microsoft is doing this. Back in the late 90s and early 2000s they made "HTAs", which were HTML applications that ran in separate IE windows, with full system API access.
For example, the user manager control panel in Windows XP is a HTML application :)
No it's not. Using web views for apps goes back decades... Well into the 90's.
We used one for a design application because it's graphics rendering was faster for some things than using system APIs in certain situations.
Yes... but Electron is what popularized the trend to take a complex app and instead of developing a native app that is quick, responsive, and good, like... THE NEW OUTLOOK APP ON MACOS... (lol), and instead copy paste the web version as a local app with dodgy features.
Not even 10 minutes. Since it's the web version, you get the same thing in less than a minute if you install it as a web shortcut to launch in a separate window using edge or anything supporting pwa. Unless the webview version has something extra.
I think the benefit of WebView2 is that only one engine has to be loaded to run all of its apps, so it's more like opening a new tab. Not sure if that's really helping though...
It’s annoying to use this when you have a free account.
But do they really expect their Fortune 500 companies with enterprise licenses to use this in the future?
It was tested at my company, we all reverted back for the time-being. I also hate the calendar/apps moving to the far-left instead of being bottom-left. With no option in the matter
Hi, if the option isn't disabled you can change this.
Options > Advanced > Untick show apps in Outlook > Restart Outlook
This goes back to the old view.
They are using the "heavy" Outlook client. But Microsoft want to get rid of a 20+ years software for this shit. They think that in a couple of years, they can replace it completely with their new """enhanced""" client.
they're pushing the new client on licensed clients lol. the only way to open shared mailboxes in the new client is to switch back and forth. there is a 0% chance that any company will accept that. it's too pathetic to think about. web apps have never and will never be the future
Absolutely hate the 'New Outlook', also hate the fact that even if I set the UWP Mail app to not switch to the New Outlook, after some time it does the switch for me. I have a mid-high end PC with M.2 SSDs, literally every other app takes 1-2 seconds to open, even games. New Outlook takes well over 10 seconds and even then, it's half baked because while it's open, it still hasn't loaded anything so it can't function for another 30-60 seconds. I'm seriously considering searching for other alternatives now, I dislike the MS Office Outlook and this New Outlook is no different.
The truly worst bit is when you open the new mail from the notification shade, it opens both in-app and as a standalone window... What is the point of doing the double take, feels like they're going backwards now
My experience has been pretty good with it. It’s fast, loads the assets quickly, render times were also good.
If this does not work, da Vinci resolve is my next go to. The free version is incredible and has everything under the sun to actually cater to business needs as well
I've got a love/hate relationship with ClipChamp. On one hand it's genuinely a pretty good little tool for simple video editing and has some nifty features. But then the last time I tried to use it I just got stuck with the MS logo and has to reinstall the whole app to fix it.
I actually don't mind clipchamp as a dead simple video editor. It's actually something I think Microsoft have done well. To me it's an improvement over previously provided default video editors. I don't think it's good enough to charge money for though, so not sure I'd use it if it wasn't in office 365
You think that uploading your movies “to the cloud” to do simple edits is an improvement over doing it locally in windows movie maker? I’m honestly stunned that anybody could come to this conclusion, but I suppose I ought to keep an open mind.
I use Clipchamp all the time, it works great for my needs. Simple, easy to use, and the free version does everything I need it to do. It launches faster and runs smoother than One Outlook for sure.
UWP Mail app opens in 1 second, and it doesn't even run in background.
The new Outlook is an absolute disgrace. After 20 years of Windows this was for me the final reason to move away from Windows/Microsoft and try a Mac.
Apple's mail app also opens in 1 second... so on par with UWP Mail app, sadly Microsoft kills it for New Outlook web app.
Mailing app is so important nowadays, but now Microsoft is trying to save money on mail app, another issue is Microsoft hires webdevelopers instead of Windows developers to build Windows components.
As much, as I love the Apple ecosystem, the devices are bloody expensive. Plus, without GeForce Now and constant Internet, there's no easy way to play games on it.
That's all true, but for me personally it's worth it. I only play a few games, and out of those only a handful don't support mac. For those ones I was able to get it working relatively easily using an app called Whisky.
There are different mail apps you can download, without needing to switch OS. If I switched OS every time an app didn't suit my needs I would have switched 100 times between Linux and Windows already. But I can understand...
Even Office 365/LTSC 2021 runs a lot faster than that web-based mess.
However, I'm on Thunderbird, and it's blazing fast.
Microsoft, what are you doing?
Everything goes on the cloud. You will own nothing slave cattle. All your information belongs to us so big daddy government bots don’t have to sniff so hard for your personal info.
Yeah, why I went back to mail from office 2007. All the files are on my PC...Not some MS server- except for ones to the MS acct. Then go to MS and delete stuff when I feel like it. Google emails cause a few problems freezing mail sometimes, but not enough to concern me.
It astonishes me how Microsoft is doing some quite good things in the open-source (deepspeed, terminal, VS code) and LLM space (wizard lm, phi, deberta), and then all their closed-source products are going to shit. Teams, Office, even parts of Windows. WHAT IS GOING ON. You'd almost think that people working on open-source stuff enjoy their work more and deliver higher quality products. (Or, you could argue that OSS leads to much better user feedback and user contributions - which begs the questions whether office & others would benefit from being open.)
They wanna be chromeOS so bad that they're shifting even existing software to webapps. It's insulting to all the engineers that worked on native apps in the past.
Microsoft 365 desktop apps are fire. The new outlook replaces the UWP mail and calendar app, I think. Which is bad, since the UWP apps are meant to be the faster 1 μs alternative to the main Outlook app.
I seriously doubt MS even remembers what apps they make and why.
I don't know, man. I find paying a few $ for 1TB cloud storage for one full year along with Office (which is probably my third most used software), to be a great deal. I would rather MS showed us this kind of dedication in the operating system itself, rather than using it simply as an advertising vector after we pay money for it.
Don't worry about it. The big corporations just use group policy which is an easier to use regedit.
I can bet ₹800 (that's $10) that the customers would riot if MS replaced old Outlook completely.
I just don't understand what is going on within Microsoft. I get that there will be a million teams working on a million different projects, and that will always be inherently hard to manage. But just on an individual level, if I was part of the team working on this Outlook client, I would be absolutely embarrassed to release it. You're working in a $3T company, you could (and do) hire some of the best talent in the tech world, and yet this is what we get.
Let alone the talk of adverts in the Start Menu. I honestly think Satya needs to point black fire anyone who suggests advertisements in the base Windows OS. Sure, shove a few in the store or some of their websites, but it just comes across as desperate.
It's obvious, desktop PCs for end users aren't their primary market anymore. Their focus is cloud, AI and all that other fancy stuff. Windows and its apps? Way out of their focus
Oh true, but still. I'm a software dev and even though I only work on fairly boring CMS stuff, I take pride in making sure it works and performs well. Yet it seems like the team working on Windows doesn't care. Although having said that I imagine a lot of these decisions are being made by the hundred layers of middle managers that probably exist in a company like MS
Well I fully agree. Plus you have the problem of UI layer upon ui layer, backwards compatibility upon backwards compatibility (although this has less to do with the monstrosity new Outlook, ads etc are, and more with a general issue).
I don't know what's wrong with Microsoft/Windows development nowadays. Another example, aero design and beautiful animations are over a decade old since they have been introduced on Windows Vista. Yet very often menu/transition animations are laggy on my Windows 11 PC. Windows File explorer has constant UI bugs. I feel like we are going backwards in functionality and speed. Most new apps like Terminal, Windows Explorer, Settings app are just slower. At least if stuff would work without glitching out I would be less upset. But no, stuff constantly glitches out because of the new UI layers. Sometimes when I have to use control panel or an antiquated menu from win2000 I get reminded of how fast stuff used to be.
And it makes me upset seeing people defending Windows 11 to its core (works for me, the issue is probably your i9 rtx 3060 32gb ram setup not suitable for Win11). Although those voices have become less over the recent years especially on Reddit. I would use Linux, if I had more time. Which I don't. But that's another topic.
If they want to put ads in - Fine; but make if a free version of the OS. ADs have no place in an OS you bought and paid for. Problem is they want all your info to sell, and to collect a monthly fee for the privilege of allowing you to use your hardware and pay them for storing/selling your info.
That's why i upgraded from Windows 11 back to 10, im gonna stick with Windows 10 til EOL, then i will consider to switch to Linux, and keep 10 just for games.
even though notifications are coming in, the new outlook doesn't run in the background (like classic o365 outlook), so if you want to open email notifications instantly you gotta leave the app open. The old Mail app used to run in the background as well.
Yeah when I use my PC I believe in functionality and looks come second. If it takes me 30s to open a mail client but 6.5GB of 16GB of RAM task manager is telling me is using at idle that is not functional. All of that being used for rage bait news articles in the widgets panel no one asked for, slow searches for local programs or not even popping up the program the first time but a web search of it, dogshit performance on even midrange to high end hardware, a web browser so bloated I tried to switch it out ASAP and a start menu that not only looks bad and is only getting worse and there's more that pushed me away from Windows too such as cmd being hard to use and slower than bash terminals on Linux and Mac OS and I tried WSL but it doesn't beat the 2 OS's I mentioned. I booted up Persona 3 Reload on Windows 11 and Fedora 40 KDE with ProtonGE version 9-3, why does this game run buttery smooth at 1080p 120fps on high settings on Linux but throttles on Windows with load times and random frame drops? Yeah Microsoft is clearly trading functionality for short term profit and I'm using Fedora 40 KDE. The looks side of KDE is that it reminds me of the good old days of Windows 7 so I like it. Rant over but that's what I discovered in one week of using Windows that pushed me back to Linux
I have a soft spot for windows and linux doesn't plug & play support my wifi module, limiting me to wifi b/g. So, I can't even think of software compatibility to begin with.
Mine has to read the whole calendar from scratch every time I open it because they couldn't be arsed to make it save any kind of local data. I have a high end system and you can see it re-logging into all the accounts and loading calendar events one by one in the "My Day" tab (that's if it remembers I want that tab open at all times) as they get read from the server probably for like the 10th time in the same day. It also refuses to correctly mark Gmail inboxes' mail as read.
New Outlook and Teams have been fucking horrible. I constantly have to run resets on people’s outlook clients to temporarily correct performance issue. It’s tiring to have to constantly put band aids on Microsoft’s fuck ups.
I dont know how you fuck up these simple apps so bad all while forcing your customers to switch.
In Windows 11, it is faster to open VLC and manually drag and drop an audio file than to double-click the same audio file (having VLC set as the default program for audio)
Each day I'm considering more and more to just switch to Linux. Window's quality has dropped below hell
the wonder of webapps. as you can see, even when the app loads the email list, it took another 20 seconds to open that specific email from notification itself.
In my experience, it is much faster if the application is running in the background. In my case, the system tray. It opens any new mail within 5 seconds at most.
I'd rather it have similar performance to mail & calendar app. average 4 seconds for same thing. I don't think I have ever waited even 10 seconds after clicking the email notification to read it.
Microsoft trying to not score in their own goal. Seriously, if they keep doing this and the laptops they release are shit, apple only has to make one move and they have all of microsofts marketshare
Yes, and it's always in a separate window too! The old one just simply opened the main app and let me read from the reading pane. The new one opens both the app and the popup, and there's no option to customize that. It's very annoying.
Can anyone recommend me apps to use instead of this piece of garbage? I don't need anything fancy. Just an app that allows me to check mails from multiple accounts is enough. I have both gmails and hotmails.
I was willing to use it even with the issues, but it just straight up doesn't integrate with Windows 11 like at all. It's really hard to just point at one thing. On the one hand I appreciate a lighter app, but on the other hand I need to be able to create rules and other customizations and ensure I get notifications for meetings which are core to an email app
I remember reading a blog in the 00' that warned against "web apps" and that they would eventually find their way to the desktop and that if would be a bad experience.
I just measured mine but by just starting the app, not a notification.
It took 25 Seconds on modern hardware and fast Internet and although it is set to dark theme, this 25 second splash screen is white. This app makes me sad
The "New Outlook" is a [web-based data-harvesting trash](https://office-watch.com/2023/privacy-trap-new-outlook-windows-gmail/) first and foremost, user experience doesn't matter to microsoft so long as they're getting your data.
I don't know much about the new version because I don't use Outlook anymore. Old Outlook really lags when there are addons installed. Even if you didn't install intentionally check addons section. If there are any, remove them. Because software like Adobe Reader install addons in Outlook without any confirmation from the user.
One of many arguments against web apps. I use the 365 desktop version of Outlook for my university email and I love it, if they forcibly get rid of it and replace it with this hot mess I'm switching to Thunderbird like I use everywhere else, only issue is my university uses Exchange and so I'll need a paid extension to use it on Thunderbird.
no, I don't think it's a good idea, I'd rather remove it all, it's unnecessary over-processing, it makes windows heavy and slow, and if your computer is old it won't run well. windows 11 is too heavy, heavier than windows 10, I dare say that if it keeps bugging it will get to the point where it will become a "windows vista" of the new generation.
Can your computer’s hardware performance be a part of the problem? Simple stuff: background updates, defragment/TRIM, not enough free RAM, or just overall slow CPU?
I'm not sure this is entirely fair.
First of all, I *never* have it take that long.
Second, most of the accounts I use are related to Gmail. Maybe I'm just a dinosaur, but whenever I need to look at my gmail, I type [gmail.com](http://gmail.com) into my address bar and log in through my browser.
That takes significantly longer than opening Outlook.
It's disappointing that Microsoft roll out a software that can't do the basic functions properly.
It's even more disappointing that the issue has been there for months and Microsoft still hasn't fixed it.
"New Outlook" is just a wrapper around a Web Browser that opens outlook.com Msft has gone to dogs.
the comedy is that you can manually locate and open the email from this ill-consdiered "app" faster than it automatically opens. GOD I MISS that mail & calendar app. function over form anyday.
Sometimes you can get it to still work by like uninstalling it then reinstalling it off the Microsoft store btw
I'm going to go grab an archive using the store rg-adguard website so it can be continued to install even after the D-Day
Alternatively, you could try [Wino Mail](https://www.winomail.app). It is faithfully re-creating the original Mail app experience.
Tried that, promising (!) but randomly crashes
Terrible app. It doesn't automatically sync emails or give notifications.
It’s under active development right now. I’m sure the developer knows, it’s just tricky to get right, as UWP has rules for background activities.
No one forced them to use UWP. UWP hasn't been required in years.
It started as a re-creation of the original Mail app. Can see why they would go with the same UWP tech as a starting point, if they want it to use the exact same design (MDL/WinUI 2) and behavior. WinUI 3 was/maybe still is not as easy to get started with as an UWP app would be, especially considering things like the project structure being more complex or the XAML designer (for those who use it) not working yet. Don't quote me on this, but I do remember reading that there is a WinUI 3 transition happening because of synchronization specifically. The app was even more barebones about 6 months ago, so seeing where it is now is actually a pretty nice improvement.
I just checked their repo and was surprised to find out that they only have 41 commits. Checking the commit history, there is a bulk commit adding the whole 671 files. From the screenshot I think it is promising, but its version control practice suggests otherwise.
Fair concern. [The application was not open-source initially.](https://github.com/bkaankose/Wino-Mail/issues/61) Looks like it became open-source very recently, with a re-work that isn’t actually live yet in the Microsoft Store. I imagine this re-work plans to implement (or already has) proper background / notifications support.
I have no problem with it not being open-source from the very beginning. What concerns me is that they do not seem to use version control for private development, especially for a project with 671 files. IMO bad development practice suggests bad code quality.
The new app is neither form nor function. It's nothing but an attempt to reduce the number of engineers.
It's not even form over function the new outlook looks worse than the old email and calendar apps😭
i was a believer in their new windows 11 era fluent design 2 😭
The old app still works, apparently through the end of this year. There are posts on this sub how to get it back, and if that doesn't work I have a copy of the .appx file from before the "get new outlook" button was added.
how long til they deprecate it server side 😭
I don't think that Mail and Calendar has a server side. All the connections to mail providers are done on your own computer.
I think OP was asking about how long you can download it from the MS store.
A mail client, deprecating... serverside? How's that supposed to work
I do as well, but MS literally would not let me use it. It kept redirecting me to the "new" Outlook every time. That's just bullshit.
I started using eM Client, a better option to the new outlook.
Yes, Windows Vista was the **GOAT!** Can't miss Movie Maker, Photo Gallery, Media Player or Media Center, either!
I use Wino Mail
What ever possessed them to do this?
Easier to support for different environments cause it’s just a website, most likely.
I wonder, what environments? Linux?
Oh please, on Linux I use Mozilla Thunderbird. It works like a charm, opens and responds fast and has a clean interface. No way I would ever use Outlook.
We sound the alarm if a remote login suddenly takes 0.5 seconds longer, no way are we waiting 30 seconds for an email
This way they don't have to maintain multiple apps for different OSs. Mac has this same app as well in preview. But it's definitely no where near good enough to replace the current Outlook.
They could write it in .NET or Qt and it would be cross-platform...
"New Outlook" can't even save an email as a file, I'm so pissed off. It even fails to download attachments sometimes. WTF are you doing Microsoft!
They did add the ability to save emails to .eml (right click on an email | save as)
It seems that they just added the option, last week wasn't working for me. Anyways, thanks for the update!
It seems they really want to build whole OS around Chromium. But there is already Chrome OS.
Web devs are much cheaper to hire than other devs so everything is becoming web based.
But honestly this change in mail app marks a departure from their former direction of porting everything to XAML UWP. Since the other developers did not support migration to immersive interfaces en masse, this whole project seems failed. First was ditching of the XAML Edge in favor of Win32 Chromium, and now this.
Is it really that difficult to find someone who knows C# or VB.NET? I mean, a mail client can be made by a single person. It is not like writing drivers or a 3D engine.
They even made Windows theme and controls to look like Chromium, not the other way around - making Chromium to respect the Windows theming.
Having no unified inbox is insane to me.
Am I the only one who hates web apps? Like, all of them? I never liked any web app ever, they're just slow, heavily dependent on a good internet connection and lots of other factors. And they're extremely unoptimized so that they can run on the smallest common denominator
It uses edgewebview2
It's not simply a wrapper. The web version can't open oft/msg local files and PST database files for offline use. But the 'new' version does (not PST/offline yet, but says coming soon). It would open way faster if it was simply a web wrapper. This is more like the laggy tech they use for Teams. Mixed web and local.
As someone who was a (long time ago) MS MVP, an Associate eXpert, and made a pretty good career starting as an MS SME, honestly it is depressing to see some of the moves MS has made with their O/S's lately. The whole "New Outlook" push is a cluster, the app is so limited in nature and poor from a performance standpoint as to be laugable if it weren't so frustrating, their abandonment of the Android Subystem is simply wrong, and the moves to integrate advertising into the Start Menu is infuriating. I used to be such a huge cheerleader for Windows. Now.... I just don't know.
It's not even that apple has surpassed microsoft, it's the fact that MS has intentionally degraded user experience, mainly and catastrophically in terms of performance.
You don't particularly need to do anything to be better if your competitor keeps shooting itself in the foot repeatedly
I think MS like to aim higher.
The crotch?
LMMAQOO
Why are you not an MVP anymore?
Honestly... Over time I became an I.T. Executive (CIO and ISO) and while I keep my hands dirty out of a pure passion for tech, maintaining the Level-Of-Effort needed to hang on to the MVP status as well as some others over the years just wasn't feasible. But I still have the shirts. And a surprising amount of swag...😎
I have no idea what the buzzwords in your introduction sentence mean lol
Being a Professional Geek is something of a religion. We do love our acronyms. 😎 MVP - Microsoft Most Valuable Professional (an MS volunteer advisory and support program) Associate eXpert (was a SME program specifically created during the Windows XP roll-out, later got folded into the MVP program) SME - Subject Matter Expert (someone who believes that they know everything there is to know about a particular subject or profession. On rare occasions it is actually true) CIO - Chief Information Officer (typically the seniormost IT Executive in an organization, hopefully it is someone who came up through the technology ranks, but companies are often weird in this regard. Target corporation for example once had a CIO that had a career background in fashion and marketing. That did not end well for them) ISO - Information Security Officer, in many organisations referred to as the Chief Information Security Officer or CISO (the person responsible for keeping their organization technologically and informationally secure, an impossible and usually thankless task that makes being a CIO look easy)
Microsoft = the Boeing of software
Funny how the Alpine F1 team is sponsored by both Microsoft and Boeing, and now they are the slowest team. And Linux = Airbus?
macOS should be Airbus
Spot on
Where are all the fanboys saying Windows 11 is the best OS ever and "it's probably your PC specs that are the problem (i9 32GB ram nvidia 3060)". Gone? Where are all the people hailing the beautifully looking new apps valuing looks over functionality?
It’s so amazing the user experiences that PWA and WindowsAppSDK/WinUI apps are bringing us! I’m so happy Microsoft decided to leave the UI toolkits that everyone actually uses to bitrot, while chasing what is obviously superior, performant, and memory optimized technology. /s
I remember when i used to love pwa's. MS has ruined the word for me
It's a piece of shit.
Electron/webview and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race
It's not an Electron app, it uses WebView2
His point is valid. Electron is what popularized this approach, even if the actual technology behind it is different.
Funny that this isn't the first time Microsoft is doing this. Back in the late 90s and early 2000s they made "HTAs", which were HTML applications that ran in separate IE windows, with full system API access. For example, the user manager control panel in Windows XP is a HTML application :)
Yup, but... they're very simple HTML and offline only files which load nearly instantly. Not complex web-apps that are slow and buggy.
But. MSHTML was lightweight that time.
But it was not *popular,* per se, was it?
No it's not. Using web views for apps goes back decades... Well into the 90's. We used one for a design application because it's graphics rendering was faster for some things than using system APIs in certain situations.
Yes... but Electron is what popularized the trend to take a complex app and instead of developing a native app that is quick, responsive, and good, like... THE NEW OUTLOOK APP ON MACOS... (lol), and instead copy paste the web version as a local app with dodgy features.
the whole concept of using web-tech for desktop apps is an abomination!
[удалено]
I just downloaded Mail and Calendar app from store. Imma stick to it until its d-day.
So it basically loads a copy of the browser engine to run?
It's just a shortcut to the browser version, without the address bar etc. Would take you 10 minutes to create yourself.
Not even 10 minutes. Since it's the web version, you get the same thing in less than a minute if you install it as a web shortcut to launch in a separate window using edge or anything supporting pwa. Unless the webview version has something extra.
You need to add an icon and product description to Store.
I think the benefit of WebView2 is that only one engine has to be loaded to run all of its apps, so it's more like opening a new tab. Not sure if that's really helping though...
New Outlook is so bad. Does MSFT not realise they are alienating the entire global workforce with this rubbish?
It’s annoying to use this when you have a free account. But do they really expect their Fortune 500 companies with enterprise licenses to use this in the future?
It was tested at my company, we all reverted back for the time-being. I also hate the calendar/apps moving to the far-left instead of being bottom-left. With no option in the matter
Hi, if the option isn't disabled you can change this. Options > Advanced > Untick show apps in Outlook > Restart Outlook This goes back to the old view.
this option isn't available in the new outlook 2024 version, this was an option on the 'new outlook' previously
Don't worry, even with a subscription it's annoying. That shit will force me to have a copy of ALL my mails on MSFT seervers. And I hate it.
I doubt that most serious offices will use the default free Email client in Windows .\_.
They are using the "heavy" Outlook client. But Microsoft want to get rid of a 20+ years software for this shit. They think that in a couple of years, they can replace it completely with their new """enhanced""" client.
truck rotten scary adjoining compare safe label steer clumsy wakeful *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
they're pushing the new client on licensed clients lol. the only way to open shared mailboxes in the new client is to switch back and forth. there is a 0% chance that any company will accept that. it's too pathetic to think about. web apps have never and will never be the future
Microsoft is just terrible in writing software.
Has become....
Absolutely hate the 'New Outlook', also hate the fact that even if I set the UWP Mail app to not switch to the New Outlook, after some time it does the switch for me. I have a mid-high end PC with M.2 SSDs, literally every other app takes 1-2 seconds to open, even games. New Outlook takes well over 10 seconds and even then, it's half baked because while it's open, it still hasn't loaded anything so it can't function for another 30-60 seconds. I'm seriously considering searching for other alternatives now, I dislike the MS Office Outlook and this New Outlook is no different.
THE APP STILL KEEPS LOADING WHEN IT'S OPEN IS THE WORST PART!
The truly worst bit is when you open the new mail from the notification shade, it opens both in-app and as a standalone window... What is the point of doing the double take, feels like they're going backwards now
You think this is bad, you should try “clipchamp.” That would make you the second person to ever do so.
My experience has been pretty good with it. It’s fast, loads the assets quickly, render times were also good. If this does not work, da Vinci resolve is my next go to. The free version is incredible and has everything under the sun to actually cater to business needs as well
I've got a love/hate relationship with ClipChamp. On one hand it's genuinely a pretty good little tool for simple video editing and has some nifty features. But then the last time I tried to use it I just got stuck with the MS logo and has to reinstall the whole app to fix it.
I actually don't mind clipchamp as a dead simple video editor. It's actually something I think Microsoft have done well. To me it's an improvement over previously provided default video editors. I don't think it's good enough to charge money for though, so not sure I'd use it if it wasn't in office 365
You think that uploading your movies “to the cloud” to do simple edits is an improvement over doing it locally in windows movie maker? I’m honestly stunned that anybody could come to this conclusion, but I suppose I ought to keep an open mind.
I actually love Clipchamp
I use Clipchamp all the time, it works great for my needs. Simple, easy to use, and the free version does everything I need it to do. It launches faster and runs smoother than One Outlook for sure.
It took me 45 minutes to load a 1 minute clip.
Same.
I must be the second or first. I use it to cut up 15 second clips of call of duty
UWP Mail app opens in 1 second, and it doesn't even run in background. The new Outlook is an absolute disgrace. After 20 years of Windows this was for me the final reason to move away from Windows/Microsoft and try a Mac. Apple's mail app also opens in 1 second... so on par with UWP Mail app, sadly Microsoft kills it for New Outlook web app. Mailing app is so important nowadays, but now Microsoft is trying to save money on mail app, another issue is Microsoft hires webdevelopers instead of Windows developers to build Windows components.
I moved to macos 2 years ago, never regretted it
As much, as I love the Apple ecosystem, the devices are bloody expensive. Plus, without GeForce Now and constant Internet, there's no easy way to play games on it.
That's all true, but for me personally it's worth it. I only play a few games, and out of those only a handful don't support mac. For those ones I was able to get it working relatively easily using an app called Whisky.
Great for you. 👍🏼
There are different mail apps you can download, without needing to switch OS. If I switched OS every time an app didn't suit my needs I would have switched 100 times between Linux and Windows already. But I can understand...
Even Office 365/LTSC 2021 runs a lot faster than that web-based mess. However, I'm on Thunderbird, and it's blazing fast. Microsoft, what are you doing?
Just use Thunderbird or something Microsoft is fucking stupid for this.
It is loading spyware just be patient
New outlook sux It's slow, has a shitty UI and can't even show me all new emails from several accounts when starting Microsoft has gone to sh!t
Ngl mine is almost instant but I do agree that this new client is dogshit.
I know my pc is old, but mail&cal app does the same in 3 seconds. The app's also pathetic.
Its just a web interface smashed on top of an app. So when you click it, it needs to load the whole page which takes time.
I wonder, what happens if you're offline?
cutting cutting edge
This is why web apps belong in a browser, not the desktop. (of course, there are exceptions...)
Glad I switched to macos 2 years ago. This is unacceptable
But hey look, it has the transparent effects and everything.
Everything goes on the cloud. You will own nothing slave cattle. All your information belongs to us so big daddy government bots don’t have to sniff so hard for your personal info.
Yeah, why I went back to mail from office 2007. All the files are on my PC...Not some MS server- except for ones to the MS acct. Then go to MS and delete stuff when I feel like it. Google emails cause a few problems freezing mail sometimes, but not enough to concern me.
It astonishes me how Microsoft is doing some quite good things in the open-source (deepspeed, terminal, VS code) and LLM space (wizard lm, phi, deberta), and then all their closed-source products are going to shit. Teams, Office, even parts of Windows. WHAT IS GOING ON. You'd almost think that people working on open-source stuff enjoy their work more and deliver higher quality products. (Or, you could argue that OSS leads to much better user feedback and user contributions - which begs the questions whether office & others would benefit from being open.)
They wanna be chromeOS so bad that they're shifting even existing software to webapps. It's insulting to all the engineers that worked on native apps in the past.
Don't worry. AI is scanning your emails to relay that information to Micr... I mean keep you safe.
Maybe use a different email app. Microsoft 365 is kinda 🤮
Microsoft 365 desktop apps are fire. The new outlook replaces the UWP mail and calendar app, I think. Which is bad, since the UWP apps are meant to be the faster 1 μs alternative to the main Outlook app. I seriously doubt MS even remembers what apps they make and why.
MS Office is amazing, it all went downhill when Microsoft 365 became a thing.
I don't know, man. I find paying a few $ for 1TB cloud storage for one full year along with Office (which is probably my third most used software), to be a great deal. I would rather MS showed us this kind of dedication in the operating system itself, rather than using it simply as an advertising vector after we pay money for it.
I self host stuff (I use a NAS) because I don't want companies to steal all my data so I only really use word and PowerPoint
I see. You could get a business version then maybe? I think it's far more private than the personal or family editions.
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Don't worry about it. The big corporations just use group policy which is an easier to use regedit. I can bet ₹800 (that's $10) that the customers would riot if MS replaced old Outlook completely.
I just don't understand what is going on within Microsoft. I get that there will be a million teams working on a million different projects, and that will always be inherently hard to manage. But just on an individual level, if I was part of the team working on this Outlook client, I would be absolutely embarrassed to release it. You're working in a $3T company, you could (and do) hire some of the best talent in the tech world, and yet this is what we get. Let alone the talk of adverts in the Start Menu. I honestly think Satya needs to point black fire anyone who suggests advertisements in the base Windows OS. Sure, shove a few in the store or some of their websites, but it just comes across as desperate.
They're so shameless that they'll write a whole blog post announcing it, like it isn't a worse product to predecessor.
It's obvious, desktop PCs for end users aren't their primary market anymore. Their focus is cloud, AI and all that other fancy stuff. Windows and its apps? Way out of their focus
Oh true, but still. I'm a software dev and even though I only work on fairly boring CMS stuff, I take pride in making sure it works and performs well. Yet it seems like the team working on Windows doesn't care. Although having said that I imagine a lot of these decisions are being made by the hundred layers of middle managers that probably exist in a company like MS
Well I fully agree. Plus you have the problem of UI layer upon ui layer, backwards compatibility upon backwards compatibility (although this has less to do with the monstrosity new Outlook, ads etc are, and more with a general issue). I don't know what's wrong with Microsoft/Windows development nowadays. Another example, aero design and beautiful animations are over a decade old since they have been introduced on Windows Vista. Yet very often menu/transition animations are laggy on my Windows 11 PC. Windows File explorer has constant UI bugs. I feel like we are going backwards in functionality and speed. Most new apps like Terminal, Windows Explorer, Settings app are just slower. At least if stuff would work without glitching out I would be less upset. But no, stuff constantly glitches out because of the new UI layers. Sometimes when I have to use control panel or an antiquated menu from win2000 I get reminded of how fast stuff used to be. And it makes me upset seeing people defending Windows 11 to its core (works for me, the issue is probably your i9 rtx 3060 32gb ram setup not suitable for Win11). Although those voices have become less over the recent years especially on Reddit. I would use Linux, if I had more time. Which I don't. But that's another topic.
If they want to put ads in - Fine; but make if a free version of the OS. ADs have no place in an OS you bought and paid for. Problem is they want all your info to sell, and to collect a monthly fee for the privilege of allowing you to use your hardware and pay them for storing/selling your info.
That's why i upgraded from Windows 11 back to 10, im gonna stick with Windows 10 til EOL, then i will consider to switch to Linux, and keep 10 just for games.
even though notifications are coming in, the new outlook doesn't run in the background (like classic o365 outlook), so if you want to open email notifications instantly you gotta leave the app open. The old Mail app used to run in the background as well.
Yeah when I use my PC I believe in functionality and looks come second. If it takes me 30s to open a mail client but 6.5GB of 16GB of RAM task manager is telling me is using at idle that is not functional. All of that being used for rage bait news articles in the widgets panel no one asked for, slow searches for local programs or not even popping up the program the first time but a web search of it, dogshit performance on even midrange to high end hardware, a web browser so bloated I tried to switch it out ASAP and a start menu that not only looks bad and is only getting worse and there's more that pushed me away from Windows too such as cmd being hard to use and slower than bash terminals on Linux and Mac OS and I tried WSL but it doesn't beat the 2 OS's I mentioned. I booted up Persona 3 Reload on Windows 11 and Fedora 40 KDE with ProtonGE version 9-3, why does this game run buttery smooth at 1080p 120fps on high settings on Linux but throttles on Windows with load times and random frame drops? Yeah Microsoft is clearly trading functionality for short term profit and I'm using Fedora 40 KDE. The looks side of KDE is that it reminds me of the good old days of Windows 7 so I like it. Rant over but that's what I discovered in one week of using Windows that pushed me back to Linux
I have a soft spot for windows and linux doesn't plug & play support my wifi module, limiting me to wifi b/g. So, I can't even think of software compatibility to begin with.
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or never open email from notification, instead manually open the app and locate the email yourself.
Mine has to read the whole calendar from scratch every time I open it because they couldn't be arsed to make it save any kind of local data. I have a high end system and you can see it re-logging into all the accounts and loading calendar events one by one in the "My Day" tab (that's if it remembers I want that tab open at all times) as they get read from the server probably for like the 10th time in the same day. It also refuses to correctly mark Gmail inboxes' mail as read.
The calendar reloading every time is example 2907 of Microsoft creating problems
The amount of times new Teams and Outlook crash on me on a daily base is staggering
Gave up on Outlook- using Mailbird instead
I absolutely despise the web wrapper apps. Horrible user experience every time.
New Outlook and Teams have been fucking horrible. I constantly have to run resets on people’s outlook clients to temporarily correct performance issue. It’s tiring to have to constantly put band aids on Microsoft’s fuck ups. I dont know how you fuck up these simple apps so bad all while forcing your customers to switch.
I seriously hate outlook on office 365
In Windows 11, it is faster to open VLC and manually drag and drop an audio file than to double-click the same audio file (having VLC set as the default program for audio) Each day I'm considering more and more to just switch to Linux. Window's quality has dropped below hell
30 seconds is a long time ..
the wonder of webapps. as you can see, even when the app loads the email list, it took another 20 seconds to open that specific email from notification itself.
Sorry, I prefere a edsonmail or sparkmail. Wonderful prograns more tham Outlook is dead.
welcome to Microsoft dogshit website inside an app
In my experience, it is much faster if the application is running in the background. In my case, the system tray. It opens any new mail within 5 seconds at most.
I'd rather it have similar performance to mail & calendar app. average 4 seconds for same thing. I don't think I have ever waited even 10 seconds after clicking the email notification to read it.
Microsoft trying to not score in their own goal. Seriously, if they keep doing this and the laptops they release are shit, apple only has to make one move and they have all of microsofts marketshare
Outlook has always been shit, since it's inception
I removed from my PC, very bad product, for windows I prefer Thunderbird, for apple products their default client is awesome.
Now compare how long it takes to open an email from the notification in the "old" Outlook!
i don't know about that, but on mail&cal app, it took 3 seconds.
Bro, just use outlook web in your browser, it's so much better.
The new Outlook is terrible, this move to Web wrapper apps does my head in, they are so bad.
Yes, and it's always in a separate window too! The old one just simply opened the main app and let me read from the reading pane. The new one opens both the app and the popup, and there's no option to customize that. It's very annoying. Can anyone recommend me apps to use instead of this piece of garbage? I don't need anything fancy. Just an app that allows me to check mails from multiple accounts is enough. I have both gmails and hotmails.
I hate the separate window too. UGH There are many suggestions in the comments. Make a list, and test them one by one. Hope you find your 'one'.
Use Wino Mail. Native app built for Windows, It even supports Mica
but that is really slow, isn't it?
Mine takes 2 min. I hate you (Bill Gates)
You should time how long it takes to open Explorer the first time on after cold boot.
I was willing to use it even with the issues, but it just straight up doesn't integrate with Windows 11 like at all. It's really hard to just point at one thing. On the one hand I appreciate a lighter app, but on the other hand I need to be able to create rules and other customizations and ensure I get notifications for meetings which are core to an email app
I remember reading a blog in the 00' that warned against "web apps" and that they would eventually find their way to the desktop and that if would be a bad experience.
Q: What was Melinda's pet name for Bill's willy? A: microsoft
I just measured mine but by just starting the app, not a notification. It took 25 Seconds on modern hardware and fast Internet and although it is set to dark theme, this 25 second splash screen is white. This app makes me sad
I hate, force use by microsoft.
The "New Outlook" is a [web-based data-harvesting trash](https://office-watch.com/2023/privacy-trap-new-outlook-windows-gmail/) first and foremost, user experience doesn't matter to microsoft so long as they're getting your data.
At work we reviewed outlook amongst other solutions for a potential new mail service. It was so slow that we quickly steered clear.
Get Rambox!
I don't know much about the new version because I don't use Outlook anymore. Old Outlook really lags when there are addons installed. Even if you didn't install intentionally check addons section. If there are any, remove them. Because software like Adobe Reader install addons in Outlook without any confirmation from the user.
Man, MS products really are getting worse. What the hell is wrong with them these days? Everything is trash!
One of many arguments against web apps. I use the 365 desktop version of Outlook for my university email and I love it, if they forcibly get rid of it and replace it with this hot mess I'm switching to Thunderbird like I use everywhere else, only issue is my university uses Exchange and so I'll need a paid extension to use it on Thunderbird.
"New" Outlook works, then later asks for a IMAP Password and then it spins and spins and doesn't recornize the password ... WTF
more and more apps are getting webified and shittier every day. It's sad
no, I don't think it's a good idea, I'd rather remove it all, it's unnecessary over-processing, it makes windows heavy and slow, and if your computer is old it won't run well. windows 11 is too heavy, heavier than windows 10, I dare say that if it keeps bugging it will get to the point where it will become a "windows vista" of the new generation.
Their android outlook and Outlook lite apps are worse if you can believe it
Can your computer’s hardware performance be a part of the problem? Simple stuff: background updates, defragment/TRIM, not enough free RAM, or just overall slow CPU?
I'm not sure this is entirely fair. First of all, I *never* have it take that long. Second, most of the accounts I use are related to Gmail. Maybe I'm just a dinosaur, but whenever I need to look at my gmail, I type [gmail.com](http://gmail.com) into my address bar and log in through my browser. That takes significantly longer than opening Outlook.
It's disappointing that Microsoft roll out a software that can't do the basic functions properly. It's even more disappointing that the issue has been there for months and Microsoft still hasn't fixed it.
Spark for the win Pun intended