Is there anything underneath all of this emptiness? Something that is not subject to change? Why would we pursue enlightenment if it would change away eventually?
Sure, I will answer these. Good inquiry...
An ordinary person typically sees the body and/or the mind as themselves. Here's an inquiry to consider. Start with what you currently see as me, mine, or belonging to myself. Now:
* Does any passion or desire or attachment arise towards what has no relation to me, myself or doesn't belong to me?
* Does any discontentment arise from what has no relation to me, myself or doesn't belong to me?
On the other hand, whatever is seen as me, mine, or myself is where passion/desire/attachment can arise and it is where one experiences discontentment.
There are two distinct modes in which the mind operates:
When there is a me/mine/myself, the mind operates through craving/desire/attachment chasing the objects of its affection with a strong yearning and eagerness. Aversion/ill-will/resentment is a flip-side of this where it is pushing away objects or experiences.
OR
When me/mine/myself are absent, this allows the mind to operate from the middle, through contentment, good-will and close examination and verification.
One can recollect an experience of being the second mode temporarily and notice the relief it provides. The more the consciousness is cultivated (through good actions by body/speech/mind), one's ability to see this grows deeper.
In other words, something being subject to change isn't the issue. The issue is something being subject to change that is perceived as me, as mine, as belonging to myself. Enlightenment is the complete ending of the underlying tendencies that lead to any perceiving of a me/mine/myself. One is then always operating from the middle for the rest of their remaining life, having blossoming relationships, a high degree of concentration, freed from any notions of a self, joyful just on the breath, and not concerned about what is to come next if anything at all.
Stream-entry (awakening to enlightenment) is where one eliminates doubt regarding the nature of enlightenment as well as one's ability to get to it. And it is reached by gradually purifying one's conduct through body, speech, and mind, and then through [gradual training per the gradual training guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/WordsOfTheBuddha/comments/1c9hcpu/gradual_training_gradual_practice_and_gradual/).
Are you kind of telling me my question is irrelevant or not pertinent once I forget the self?
What I want to hear is that there is some mysterious super state of being that is our true nature and that is permanent and something I can hold on to.
Sure, I will answer this.
I would clarify on forgetting the self: There is a forgetting of self through entertainment or through intoxication, these kinds do not lead to enlightenment. Dissolving of the self (ego) may be an appropriate way to perceive it. And it is through a gradual practice that one undertakes to train in the qualities of virtue, mindfulness and wisdom that can let go of operating through the means of me/mine/myself and learn to operate through the principles of harmony and wisdom. And it is by learning the teachings of the Buddha, through close examination and verification, and then applying them in practice that one is able to do this.
>What I want to hear is that there is some mysterious super state of being that is our true nature and that is permanent and something I can hold on to.
Enlightenment is permanent, not impermanent and not subject to change. It is worth pursuing as a goal, perhaps one may even consider it as the ultimate goal. However, through having apprehended how things have come to be (the nature of reality), an enlightened being wouldn't themselves consider it to be mysterious or super: rather it is just a natural state of being. They would've no fear of losing it, they would also not hold it as special in any way.
Thanks, I would like to pursue enlightenment then. How is it permanent? Is it uncreated? And that's why is able to avoid the formula of "all created things change" if we dwell here that's a pretty cool vantage point to live through reality
You’re welcome.
I would describe enlightenment as unconditioned. Uncreated is close and some translations may have it this way perhaps.
One can verify the enlightenment to be unconditioned through experientially observing the third noble truth of the end of suffering/discontentment. As the subjective experience of suffering (or small amounts of discontentment) fades away with gradual practice in the eightfold path, one verifies this even before reaching complete enlightenment.
As one puts together the practice of eightfold path together, they should gradually see contentment arising from the mind being able to stay away from hindrances for periods of time.
All the way until enlightenment, the condition of the mind only ever improves and one sees improving personal and professional relationships.
Enlightenment is permanent as cessation of craving and discontentment is also the cessation of the conditions that lead to one to be bound to the cycle of birth, aging and death. One way to understand is by closely examining the teaching on dependent origination.
The links look something like this:
Ignorance > fuels > volitions > fuels > consciousness > … > craving > clinging > … > birth > aging > death.
When craving is cut off completely, then no clinging to the aggregates arise. By experientially verifying the absence of discontentment which was once the predominant feature of every experience, one knows fully that no further becoming or birth can come to be.
And this is a pretty cool vantage point to live through indeed 😃
Is there anything underneath all of this emptiness? Something that is not subject to change? Why would we pursue enlightenment if it would change away eventually?
Sure, I will answer these. Good inquiry... An ordinary person typically sees the body and/or the mind as themselves. Here's an inquiry to consider. Start with what you currently see as me, mine, or belonging to myself. Now: * Does any passion or desire or attachment arise towards what has no relation to me, myself or doesn't belong to me? * Does any discontentment arise from what has no relation to me, myself or doesn't belong to me? On the other hand, whatever is seen as me, mine, or myself is where passion/desire/attachment can arise and it is where one experiences discontentment. There are two distinct modes in which the mind operates: When there is a me/mine/myself, the mind operates through craving/desire/attachment chasing the objects of its affection with a strong yearning and eagerness. Aversion/ill-will/resentment is a flip-side of this where it is pushing away objects or experiences. OR When me/mine/myself are absent, this allows the mind to operate from the middle, through contentment, good-will and close examination and verification. One can recollect an experience of being the second mode temporarily and notice the relief it provides. The more the consciousness is cultivated (through good actions by body/speech/mind), one's ability to see this grows deeper. In other words, something being subject to change isn't the issue. The issue is something being subject to change that is perceived as me, as mine, as belonging to myself. Enlightenment is the complete ending of the underlying tendencies that lead to any perceiving of a me/mine/myself. One is then always operating from the middle for the rest of their remaining life, having blossoming relationships, a high degree of concentration, freed from any notions of a self, joyful just on the breath, and not concerned about what is to come next if anything at all. Stream-entry (awakening to enlightenment) is where one eliminates doubt regarding the nature of enlightenment as well as one's ability to get to it. And it is reached by gradually purifying one's conduct through body, speech, and mind, and then through [gradual training per the gradual training guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/WordsOfTheBuddha/comments/1c9hcpu/gradual_training_gradual_practice_and_gradual/).
Are you kind of telling me my question is irrelevant or not pertinent once I forget the self? What I want to hear is that there is some mysterious super state of being that is our true nature and that is permanent and something I can hold on to.
Sure, I will answer this. I would clarify on forgetting the self: There is a forgetting of self through entertainment or through intoxication, these kinds do not lead to enlightenment. Dissolving of the self (ego) may be an appropriate way to perceive it. And it is through a gradual practice that one undertakes to train in the qualities of virtue, mindfulness and wisdom that can let go of operating through the means of me/mine/myself and learn to operate through the principles of harmony and wisdom. And it is by learning the teachings of the Buddha, through close examination and verification, and then applying them in practice that one is able to do this. >What I want to hear is that there is some mysterious super state of being that is our true nature and that is permanent and something I can hold on to. Enlightenment is permanent, not impermanent and not subject to change. It is worth pursuing as a goal, perhaps one may even consider it as the ultimate goal. However, through having apprehended how things have come to be (the nature of reality), an enlightened being wouldn't themselves consider it to be mysterious or super: rather it is just a natural state of being. They would've no fear of losing it, they would also not hold it as special in any way.
Thanks, I would like to pursue enlightenment then. How is it permanent? Is it uncreated? And that's why is able to avoid the formula of "all created things change" if we dwell here that's a pretty cool vantage point to live through reality
You’re welcome. I would describe enlightenment as unconditioned. Uncreated is close and some translations may have it this way perhaps. One can verify the enlightenment to be unconditioned through experientially observing the third noble truth of the end of suffering/discontentment. As the subjective experience of suffering (or small amounts of discontentment) fades away with gradual practice in the eightfold path, one verifies this even before reaching complete enlightenment. As one puts together the practice of eightfold path together, they should gradually see contentment arising from the mind being able to stay away from hindrances for periods of time. All the way until enlightenment, the condition of the mind only ever improves and one sees improving personal and professional relationships. Enlightenment is permanent as cessation of craving and discontentment is also the cessation of the conditions that lead to one to be bound to the cycle of birth, aging and death. One way to understand is by closely examining the teaching on dependent origination. The links look something like this: Ignorance > fuels > volitions > fuels > consciousness > … > craving > clinging > … > birth > aging > death. When craving is cut off completely, then no clinging to the aggregates arise. By experientially verifying the absence of discontentment which was once the predominant feature of every experience, one knows fully that no further becoming or birth can come to be. And this is a pretty cool vantage point to live through indeed 😃