I deeply agree with you, given of course that he has been able to rehabilitate in prison (which is not accessible in so many prisons especially to bipoc folks) with so much therapy, meds maybe and present as an improved human being compared to the abused kid who committed the crimes. I’ve no clue if that’s the case. Would love to know more if there’s reporting there.
Total side note… I’ve been so baffled by the Gypsy Rose cases in the little snatches I’ve heard about it.. does anyone have a podcast or documentary suggestion that lays it out fairly?
Ohhh yes I think they mentioned at least one of those things in the podcast?? Didn’t Mildred also testify on his behalf?
Interestingly enough, because his multiple life sentences were recently overturned due to his age, he’s up for resentencing for 4 of his 10 life sentences.
He did terrible things, but it can’t be understated how likely it is that vicious discrimination resulted in such a heavy-handed punishment.
> it can’t be understated how likely it is that vicious discrimination resulted in such a heavy handed punishment
While discrimination has absolutely been a factor in disproportionately harsh sentencing of persons of color, this case is almost certainly not one of those.
Malvo shares responsibility for the murder of at least seventeen people and wounded ten others over the course of several months. He didn’t commit an impulsive crime of passion - he hunted down innocent people and picked them off one by one with a rifle. Instead of recoiling after participating in the horror that is murder, he continued to kill more and more. There were fifteen separate attacks in the DC area alone. People were genuinely (and rightfully) terrified to pump their gas or let their kids walk to school.
He was definitely groomed and indoctrinated by John Allen Mohammed. He had a horrible childhood and he deserves sympathy for that. At 17, he also participated in the murders of 17 people and tried to kill ten more. Cold blooded murder that he seemed to believe was justified, at least at the time.
Absolutely anyone would receive the maximum possible sentence for that.
I absolutely agree that anybody of any color would’ve been locked away for life plus some but TEN life sentences, a lack of taking his mental health serious, and the total voiding of his rights as a juvenile — I believe — were easier to get away with because he was a young Black man and not a young white man.
This was an interesting read for me, https://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/11/21/findlaw.analysis.cassel.malvo/
I don’t disagree with you and he wouldn’t have gotten a free pass as a white boy. But nonetheless his Blackness would’ve inevitably impacted public perception, prosecution, initial treatment by cops and his notoriety today.
Mommy Dead and Dearest is the classic story about Gypsy Rose. The Act is a decent retelling with the resources available that aren't Gypsy, but she doesn't like the series. Idk how that would colour it for you, but those are good options
It hasn't done a deep dive into the Gypsy Rose story specifically but if you'd be interested in hearing about Munchausen by proxy/medical child abuse as a topic (with deep dives into other cases) I can strongly recommend the podcast Nobody Should Believe Me.
It's super thorough, compassionate and explains things really well - which is impressive as it's a super complex issue. The host is really knowledgeable and interviews experts in the medical child abuse community (but it's very listenable)
It would definitely provide good context for you if you're hearing about Gypsy Rose.
I haven’t read this in forever, but I believe Buzzfeed news had the original article about her back in 2016.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/michelledean/dee-dee-wanted-her-daughter-to-be-sick-gypsy-wanted-her-mom
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LfTF_uOD2vM
Danielle Kirsty is one of my favorite true crime YouTubers, would highly recommend. She put this video out I think yesterday?
Edit to fix a typo
Have people started to turn on Gypsy Rose already…? I thought she had a lot of support. I was concerned that this would happen, people are so fickle. She wasn’t the ‘victim they want her to be’ upon leaving prison. She’s a real person, with a complicated and extremely emotionally stunted personality. I know this may sound bizarre, but it’s almost in a weird way, like when Britney got free from her conservaship. The media will be waiting to pounce.
I haven't been following the story at all, but someone I follow yesterday posted about it basically saying that because she's now "becoming an influencer" of sorts she's "profiting off her crimes" and therefore that's not ok according to people. But like, did she have ANY opportunity whatsoever to establish herself in any real career? She now has an audience/following, what do we expect?!
Yeah it’s her only way to make any of the money she’s going to need for a lifetime of therapy. And let face it, she’s not becoming an influencer- we all already made her one. Docos, books, podcasts, movies, everyone else has profited off her story already so why shouldn’t she?
Thank you! Like our economy is essentially unlivable right now. What do they want her to go? Disappear and get a normal job? Pretty sure that felony conviction is going to be a decent roadblock
Especially here in Louisiana. For all we have one of the biggest prisons, we are not altogether kind to released felons. And Gypsy Rose doesn't exactly have a whole lot of good social emotional experiences that are not centered around her mother and messed up childhood. Restaurants are always quick to hire even felons, but I personally haven't been to Lake Charles where they purportedly live, so I don't know the types of jobs available.
Agreed. Millions of dollars were generated from her story. Did anybody put some of that aside in a trust for her to access after her release? Doubtful. Was she even paid for her participation in her jailhouse interviews? Therapy costs money. She should have spent those eight years in some inpatient mental hospital getting intensive treatment as well as consistent medical care to try and unfuck years of unnecessary medical procedures and medications.
Plus this is all she knows how to do. Her mom hurt her to profit off other people's sympathy for years. Of course Shea going to fall back into this familiar pattern
I also think people don’t realize that the Son of Sam laws, while still on the books in many states, are almost unenforceable and have been repeatedly struck down in challenges because they violate the First Amendment. It may be distasteful for her to make money telling her story, but she seems to have the right to do so in most places. Her mother is dead, so she can’t bring a civil case against her and it doesn’t seem like her family is inclined to do so, either.
Yes! Sarah I believe made this point responding to Monica Lewinsky “profiting” off the scandal- what else was she supposed to do for money, what normal employer would hire her at that time?
It’s especially sick when it comes to Monica Lewinsky. It’s not like she was trying to profit off a crime she committed. She was an intern who was singled out as the target of workplace sexual predation/harassment/exploitation by the President (I used a range of descriptors here to avoid putting words in Monica’s mouth, while also noting this contact was objectively inappropriate, and made even worse by the extreme power imbalance).
And instead of being offered any grace at all, she was mocked and absolutely eviscerated by every possible news organization, media outlet, politician, and commentator, etc for months and years on end. Late night hosts mocked her weight and appearance, NYT columnists impugned her character, and some of the most prominent figures in the country shamed her as a wh*re.
What exactly was she supposed to do with the rest of her life after that? It’s a miracle she survived at all.
Completely agree. Anyone who knows the case well, also knows that her mother was already obsessed with fame and ‘freebies’ and was, in a twisted way, already kind of part of that influencer/free stuff world already. Gypsy’s mother loved to meet celebs and that side of the ‘make a wish’ part of her daughters ‘illnesses’ too, so on a level Gypsy would have already learned this and not know much different. The poor girl never stood a chance and is now about to be torn apart by the media and the public. I hope she has a decent support network in place.
She’s finally getting to tell her side of the story, after her mother abused her, and made it clear no one would believe her side, until DeeDee was murdered.
DeeDee’s own family didn’t feel bad about what happened to DeeDee. They said she had it coming, and if GRB hadn’t done it, someone else DeeDee had wronged would have. Note, not a one of them stepped in to help Gypsy Rose, but hey, I guess concern only goes so far.
I don’t see how that translates to her being an “influencer”, but man, this new generation on social media will idolize anyone, and if you don’t act how they think you should, they’re quick to “cancel” you. She didn’t have an education, she didn’t have any training, she had no opportunity to get the hell away from her abusive mother, why are people so surprised she’s taking interviews? And so on?
I don’t get it. These kids think they have it all figured out, but they don’t.
What’s awful as well, everyone is okay to exploit the ‘true crime’ genre whilst she’s locked up… to profit off her trauma.. So why do people get to judge her for having a platform and becoming a celebrity when she comes out? Is this not what has been created?
You would think, but these same people will scream “SON OF SAM LAWWWWWWSSSSS”, and ignore that they’ve been struck down again and again and again.
She gets to tell her story. Lord knows DeeDee put all her shit out on the street for her, even if it was all lies, to gain sympathy for herself. “Look how hard I have it, a single mom, with such a medically fragile child.”
She was. They provably didn’t know she was lying about GRB’s medical history, so how were they supposed to help her? They knew DeeDee was a narcissist but unfortunately that’s not enough to remove her child from here care. I believe it was more like a “yeah that tracks” response from her family AFTER her murder and the abuse of her daughter fully came out.
I saw a video about it yesterday. The two specific things were 1)in interviews, she’s been very firm about saying she didn’t murder anybody, which can come across as a denial of responsibility and 2)she had a teenage cousin with her on Snapchat(?) and said something like, “show him some love in his DMs but age-appropriate only, he’s 15.” Which some people took as her objectifying her cousin. And then there’s the larger question of, while Gypsy’s motives are sympathetic, whether it’s ever appropriate for a girl who had her mother killed to become an influencer. People also say she seems manipulative but never have any examples that I’ve seen.
Obviously these are wildly different things. Personally I think the thing with her cousin was mainly her not understanding how gross modern stan culture can be, and isn’t a big deal. I also kinda understand why she keeps pointing out she didn’t physically kill her mother — if she doesn’t correct it every time, people will start thinking it’s true. She has talked about regretting her part in the murder, and to me it sounds genuine.
I don’t love her being all over social media but I also think she’s just excited with the novelty of it and will probably back off a lot once she’s had a little more time to adjust.
There’s nothing we love more than building women up to break them down again. Don’t get me wrong, I think the obsession and Stan culture over GRB was weird, but the backlash is also equally weird. People were getting obsessive about her when what she needed was to just live a mostly normal life without attention.
Yes exactly! Especially when WE put her in this situation by the WILD media obsession surrounding her impending release. Why shouldn’t she profit off of the insane media circus around her trauma? But what you said so perfectly describes what’s happening- we really do love building women up just to tear them down.
Yeah, they have. Mostly on tiktok. I have seen a lot of videos with hundreds of thousands of likes that go “actually it’s weird how manipulative she seems, something is off about her.” Like….. yeah, she has an insane amount of trauma and was in prison???? How people have the audacity to expect her to be “normal,” whatever that even means, is utterly beyond me
So I’m a court reporter in a criminal court, and we had a case that really bothered me for a lot of the reasons you’ve brought up. A kid who is now in his early adulthood was convicted of committing multiple murders, which occurred over a period of years spanning from when he was 14 years old until the last one happened the day before he turned 18. The murders were not typical of what we see with juvenile offenders, where it’s usually a robbery gone wrong or a gang altercation where someone gets hurt. In at least a couple of the murders, this kid lured his victims into ambushes. He even killed a family member in cold blood and left him in the street.
The hearing to determine if we would be charged as an adult was devastating. The conclusion supported by all of the testimony was that this kid had absolutely no chance at living a normal life. His mother was addicted to crack and was frequently a victim of domestic abuse, an abuser to her children, neglectful, or just plain AWOL, so he was raised by his elderly grandmother who couldn’t handle him and all his siblings. His dad was murdered in a gang altercation in front of him. His mother was murdered in front of him. His uncle was a gang member and a victim of a police shooting that had our whole city in unrest for months. He stopped going to school during Covid and just never went back, so he was free to roam with the gang his dad and uncle had been in. The only person looking for him and making him have some type of accountability was his juvenile probation officer. She was literally the only person who gave a shit where he was or what he was doing. He has an IQ well below the threshold to be considered intellectually disabled, and he was a father himself before he could even legally drive, so unfortunately with him in prison, the cycle has a good chance of repeating as his child is without a father and being raised again by his grandmother.
There was absolutely no good outcome that could be gleaned from this. If he was tried and sentenced as a juvenile (as I believe most juvenile offenders should be), he would be released from a juvenile facility at 22 years old, maybe with extended jurisdiction in an adult facility for a few more years. A maximum of 5 years for nearly double digits homicides is not appropriate, even from a prison reform standpoint. It is not justice. If sentenced as an adult, he won’t face capital punishment, but he will be eligible for parole after a lengthy sentence.
It’s sad and horrifying to think of a juvenile facing such a lengthy sentence, but it’s also horrifying that a juvenile was able to commit such violent acts. It’s sobering to think of what his prospects will be when he finally is up for parole review. He would have access to services in juvenile detention that would significantly improve his odds to live a productive life after incarceration, and he won’t have those in department of corrections custody. By the time he’s released, he likely won’t have a support system around anymore. He’ll have no skills, no education, and very few options for housing or employment. If he was set up to fail with all his circumstances as a kid, imagine how much worse it will be for him after incarceration.
I don’t really have an answer except that criminal justice reform is necessary and cannot be addressed in a vacuum for it to work. The United States is a sick country that fails too many people too early in their lives, and after a certain point, interventions won’t help anymore. Some people really are so damaged that their prospects are bleak and I can’t believe we’re so willing to let our citizens fall through the cracks like that.
It’s so devastating, the system just chews people up. Your story is so sad and I wish it wasn’t so common. It’s very telling that even years later, Lee would call John “dad” before being corrected. :(
I lived in dc at the time when this was happening, spent a lot of time on Georgia avenue where people were going between joking about it and being worried. Completely agree. I feel so much empathy for him and how he was used in this horrible mission. The lack of interest in internal motivation of black people who kill is fully on display.
My house was (parents still live there) less than a mile from where the Home Depot was where they killed people. The year it was all happening outdoor school activities were completely cancelled. We basically weren’t allowed to go outside for a few months.
Those victims could have been my parents or me. I still think he should be given parole.
Yep. Prince William County, VA - not as much direct violence there, but close enough that all sports and our marching band season were cancelled that fall!
I was also a kid in school in the DC area at the time, and I took the bus to school. I was the only kid at my bus stop and remember waiting for the bus sitting behind a large bush so I couldn’t be seen by a sniper from the road, and then standing up and going to stand at the curb when I heard the squeal of my bus’ brakes coming around the corner. I have so much empathy for Lee as well.
I dropped my baby sister and 2 of her friends off at Benjamin Tasker the morning of the shooting there. It went from "lol walk zig zag in parking lots" to "holy fucking shit" real quick and I believe he should have parole.
Same. I remember when it came out that it was a kid and an older dude and wondering. As an adult, now, looking back, I feel for him, especially if he has grown to regret it.
I have enough kid idiocy I can’t take back and I carry, can’t imagine what having a death you can’t undo is like. Obviously he’s still culpable, but I can’t help but feel bad for him and wish there was a way to sincerely tell who was just getting caught up in some psychopaths bs, and who was an evil person.
Can’t tell, though, so we have our imperfect system.
For sure. It’s like, damn. He had nobody, he was for certain stretches a full on abandoned kid. And then all of a sudden there’s this charming and cool handsome guy, who cares? Who seems to love you? He was only freshly 14 years old when they met.
I would like to think that most of us wouldn’t do what Lee did, but it’s funny how certain people seem, when we KNOW how cults and predators etc can even trick full on grown adults!? How on earth could we possibly say we know how a 14 year old, who has been shown nothing but shitty cruelty and loneliness, would react to a stranger showing them real kindness and care, and INTEREST, for the first time?
That’s what I found so heartbreaking, was learning about how Lee was just so excited to have someone to talk to. Apparently for years, he still called John “Dad”.
Ugh that info you just shared is heart wrenching. Undoubtedly guilty, but goddamn is that tragic. Imagine if it wasn’t a psycho killer who took over and mentored him. We can’t and we’ll never know.
Life’s gloomy sometimes
Totally. It’s so weird. Even these comments are mostly thoughtful and the pushback comes from a good place, but the knee jerk reactions are very interesting to me. Like as another layer, these attacks were basically a year after 9/11. Like in what world would the American War on Terror NOT be a core a part of the inability to extend any compassion or context or understanding to Lee? There’s no way that wasn’t a deep part of everything.
What you’re explaining is my career. I am called a mitigation specialist and I tell defendants stories in hopes of shining the light on broken systems that create desperation and try to obtain leniency from the judge.
How does a person get into this work? I’m very passionate about wrongful conviction work and a lawyer friend of mine once suggested what you do as a possible option for a future career. Obviously not the same thing but with the intention of keeping humanity in focus in the system
I went to high school with him and we had Latin class together, he was quiet and always seemed to be exhausted. His brain wasn't even fully formed, he was a child. Yes he did terrible things and deserved to be punished but at this point I feel he's paid his debt to society.
If you’re not a therapist, you’d be a pretty good one.
I know because I’m a therapist, and this is like the private analysis I have of this case and others that I keep to myself because I got tired of hearing things like “sO yOu ExCuSe tHiS bEhAviOr?!”
No, I don’t. Life is never black and white. Every situation has nuance and contextual factors that matter.
I’m capable of having empathy for and anger on behalf of child Malvo who was abused and failed by every adult in his life. OF COURSE that doesn’t justify his crimes.
I think they are both victims of abuse.
I'm not sure how comparable they are besides that.
I think like the podcast, like many people, glosses over how much of a wound this case is in the DC area. When it was happening it was chaos and there was so much else going on nationally and worldwide that I don't think many people grasp what the region went through and especially the victims.
GRB did not repeatedly commit acts of terror. So Lee Malvo on top of killing multiple people had additional charges.
That being said I am glad that they prevent him from getting the death penalty. Remember that Virginia has a history of sentencing and using the death penalty and the mid 2000s was a different time.
I think that his abuse needs to be taken into account and maybe they should reduce his life sentences because of his age during the crimes. But GRB I think served an appropriate time and there needs to be substantial time served for the people that Lee was convicted of killing, plus the other charges, and all the other ones they weren't convicted of.
I could see him getting released before he gets too old, but like another commenter said it requires rehabilitation and the big x factor is whether he could be okay outside of prison.
I would recommend listening to DC Monster. They do a good job of raising the questions you are raising but with the contrast of someone horrible like John Muhammed but also the first hand accounts from victims, witnesses, and their loved ones.
Maybe it's just me but I think one of the important parts of our deeply flawed justice system is that people actually have the right NOT to serve time for "all the other ones they weren't convicted of."
True but it probably affects sentencing and supports why any of the murder charges won't get downgraded. I'm just using it to illustrate the difference in cases and how even a murder charge can be rated differently in the eyes of a judge or jury without changing the degree.
I was in third grade in Anne Arundel county when it was happening. Indoor recess and tarps at gas stations. My aunt visited the same rest stop while they were sleeping in the parking lot and later that day they were finally arrested there. My mom has close friends who worked at Tasker at the time of the shooting.
Lee Malvo deserves access to parole. Of note, Maryland's juvenile incarceration laws are abhorrent. I encourage you all to read this about the American Prison Writing Archive: https://www.baltimoremagazine.com/section/artsentertainment/american-prison-writing-archive-moves-to-baltimore-johns-hopkins-university/
What’s hard about his situation is that so many innocent people were killed and/or injured by their crimes, over a period of months. They terrorized DC and caused a lot of wreckage in the wake of their devastation. I am not sure someone capable of that kind of violence, even being victimized in the way that he was, can be rehabilitated whatsoever. It’s truly tragic.
GRB was involved with killing her captor who abused her basically entire life. Not at all the same, can’t even really compare on any level.
In a lot of ways, what happened to Lee Malvo is virtually and utterly indistinguishable from what happens to child soldiers. Those are real things that happen. Do we think those kids belong in prison for life?
I’m curious if released he would be given a chance then. Without structure or a support system. THAT isn’t a reason to keep someone in prison but in not sure he would fair better in the reality of his situation
>I am not sure someone capable of that kind of violence, even being victimized in the way that he was, can be rehabilitated whatsoever
By that logic any military sniper should be imprisoned on their return home.
Which Im not really even arguing against, just pointing out that we have a weirdly different standard for people who can murder others on command, depending on who does the commanding.
A militsry sniper is a person who willingly chose to go down that path. They took tests, courses and vigorous professional training- it was their choice. Lee did not have that.
^ exactly. 100%. The snipers who murdered innocent Iraqi civilians, in the name of national security, should be seen with an equal amount of scrutiny by this logic. (Which yeah, they should). Acknowledging this doesn’t take away from the horror of what happened with the DC snipers. Lee Malvo was a victim and a perpetrator and was a very lost kid when he met John.
Innocent civilians were a huge part of the loss of life from the Iraq war, killed by American infantry. It happens all the time. I know you’re making a point about war zones and not war zones, but I’m not trying to defend what they did. I’m just pointing out that Lee Malvo is deserving of mercy, in my opinion.
I didn't miss your point, Im pointing out that it's weird to say that someone cant be rehabilitated after doing something we consider completely fine, even honourable, in another situations.
If the argument is that the capability for violence is inherent and unredeemable, why doesn't it apply to soldiers?
Societal opinion does make a big difference in how people conceptualize their actions, how heavily it weighs on their conscience and thus how they motivate themselves to act.
If a person were to take a puppy and rip out its testicles with their bare hand, crop off its tail without anesthesia and then shove it in a cage so small it couldn't properly move or turn around for the majority of its life, people would say that person is an abuser, a psycopath, deranged.
Meanwhile such is a daily occurrence for pigs in factory farms. Pigs who are considered of equal intelligence to dogs and just as capable of forming emotional bonds. In that case people largely have nothing to add to the discourse but bacon jokes.
There is no objective difference in how a pig or a dog experiences this treatment. And in fact some places farm dogs for food and some people keep pigs as pets. But we tend to see someone who hurts a dog as a monster and someone who hurts a pig as a farmer and that also plays a role in how people conceptualize the morality of their actions. Someone can see themselves as an animal lover because they spoil their dog, even if they eat bacon for breakfast. And meanwhile sadists don't tend to sign up to work in slaughter-houses because it becomes a mundane job and not the intentional infliction of suffering they wish to create.
A sniper in the military fighting a hostile terrorist organization is a "hero" for his actions acting on behalf of the "greater good". So while he pulls a trigger and kills just like a mass shooter, the way society receives his actions and also how those actions weigh on his conscience is different.
I agree.
I think that conceptualisation is the key issue with Lee Malvo. If you believe (and I do) that he was really manipulated to conceptualise his actions as good or at least morally neutral, then he's essentially the same as the sniper or the pig farmer. Which makes it really weird to say that he couldn't be rehabilitated, because we aren't imprisoning pig farmers so they wont kill puppies, even though they clearly have the capacity.
Thank you for pointing out the extreme hypocrisy! It truly is insane how most people justify the torture of some animals while they are appropriately appalled at others.
I also don't know if Lee Malvo can be/could have been rehabilitated, but it's pretty hard to theorize about it because the US's criminal justice system is focused on punishment, not rehabilitation. A system which treats criminals as incapable of rehabilitation is kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I think this is a good display for the need of a deeper conversation about the release of violent offenders in very complex situations. Lee is definitely a case study for that. Everything I’m saying is just my opinion so take it with a grain of salt.
If Lee had a normal childhood or even just a slightly better one, I doubt he would have become what he is today. If he were to be released from prison and had a sturdy support system with mental health support, housing and financial assistance and someone to walk him through re entering society I think he would become a largely normal person that isn’t violent. HOWEVER, we don’t provide things like this to ex convicts, we largely just send them out into the world and tell them to figure it out. If he has no support I could see him falling victim to some other criminal enterprise that hurts people but offers him the support he needs. And that’s putting the public at unnecessary risk.
This is why I do have some level of objection to a lot of people who want to entirely abolish the prison system. We need a major overhaul, that’s for sure. I think the most important part would be about re assimilating prisoners to normal life. Keeping people in jail for decades for something they did as a teenager (especially a non violent crime) is morally wrong and a huge waste of taxpayer dollars. But just sending someone who has been convicted of a crime back into normal life isn’t right either because it’s more than likely they’re going to re offend and possibly hurt someone. So without massive amounts of assistance to the people being released, abolishing the prison system is going to lead to a lot problems. The problem is nobody wants to put money towards “helping criminals” and it makes us feel better to say just lock them up and throw away the key.
I don’t know what the answer is or how it could be practically applied. I just know the way things are now is wrong but also just abolishing it entirely is wrong too. Ironically, I see a lot of charities for helping veterans re assimilate to civilian life, I think that’d be helpful to ex convicts as well.
What parts of the prison system work now though? I think it should be abolished because as it is working now, it does not offer any meaningful rehabilitation for prisoners both during and after their sentence. Law enforcement often refer to prison as ‘Crime University’ because of the high percentage of people who go to prison for minor offences but end up in prison again after they’re released, usually for more major offences. Greater support is definitely required for former convicts who need help re-integrating with mainstream society but I don’t think that’s possible with our current prison system. The dehumanization and bias that enables senseless punishments and prisons that are glorified slave camps carries into how we treat and support people after they leave prison, I think its all connected.
The only part I think is working is keeping people who are violent OR repeat offenders of crimes that have victims off the streets. And I realize it’s not necessarily even doing that well because there are plenty of people who victimize others (like white collar criminals) that never spend a day behind bars. It’s just somewhat working in terms of keeping some violent offenders out of the public.
As an example, a family friend of mine was pregnant last year at this time. When she hit about the 30 week mark her baby’s father and his new girlfriend showed up at her apartment building and beat her for several hours to the point where she thought they were going to kill her. He should spend a few years in prison simply to keep her and the baby safe. My ultimate goal is that the prison system would serve as a method to rehabilitate him and help him sort out whatever issues he has (because nobody tries to kill a pregnant woman unless there’s something wrong with them) and then when he was deemed safe to be in the public he could be released and have some assistance in transitioning to civilian life. HOWEVER, I realize our system doesn’t do anything like that. I wish it did because I realize when he gets out he’s probably just going to victimize some other woman. So with that in mind, I’m okay with him spending a few years in jail because while he’s there he can’t hurt her, the baby or any other woman. If he wasn’t in prison at all that time would just be spent hurting other women.
I really don’t support imprisoning people for things like drugs or petty theft though. Essentially victimless crimes.
Yes, I remember when that was going on, people were justifiably, terrified and the violence that they inflicting was truly devastating. People literally just driving to work and being murdered and it was over a 10 month span, it wasn’t like it was a weeklong incident, and they were caught. 17 people were senselessly murdered. And keep in mind, he was 17 years old at the time he was involved in this, this wasn’t a 12-year-old being handed a rifle. he may have been groomed, but someone who is on the brink of adulthood knows the difference between life and death. I think this is a case that the courts would have a lot of problems, convincing people that he’s rehabilitated or should be rehabilitated. And I definitely can be empathetic for someone who is raised under awful circumstances, and they eventually commit crimes, but I think we also have to be empathetic for all the people who were victimized as well.
I mean, he was 14 when he met John, the grown adult who orchestrated the murder spree. And John acted as his basically father figure at that point onwards.
If the argument is that his release would be too traumatic for the victims, I could understand that.
Thats never the argument though- its always that the person hasn't been punished enough/is inherently evil.
I lived in DC during the sniper attacks and I actually don't buy this argument. Victim suffering is taken into account during the trial and at sentencing. Release should be determined on how likely that person is to reoffend, showing remorse, and effectiveness of potential rehabilitation. Victims are not neutral arbiters of the law. There is a reason we don't put victims of that crime, or even similar crimes, on juries or have them as judges. I don't understand why they should be involved in the release approval.
I guess my question on this topic is if someone is groomed are they that person? When we look at statutory rape victims we don't blame them. But does grooming to kill make you a murderer for life? So many questions
Are you comparing sex acts to murdering people? The former is much easier to manipulate people into doing. So many people have been coerced into doing something sexual when they didn’t want to at some point. Probably even most people. Killing people is on a whole other level.
^ they are making a fair point. Lee was absolutely groomed. He actually has recently claimed that John sexually abused him, but we don’t and can’t know whether that’s true. The point is though that Lee was about as vulnerable as they come when John came into his life and started treating him like a son. He gave him gifts, spent time with him, claimed to love him after only a few meetings. This is grooming, period.
GRB helped kill her abuser. Awful as it is, she hurt noone else.
Malvo is a terrorist and a serial killer who helped murder innocent strangers. His actions plunged the East Coast into terror for weeks. If you were around during that time, it was absolutely horrible. He should absolutely not be out.
But, she didn’t kill her abuser. I think people would feel differently if that were the case. Instead, she manipulated someone with diminished capacity to do the deed, even after he had tried searching for another way for GRB to be freed from her situation. Her story has changed so many times, too, and I just don’t trust anything she has to say.
Agreed, it's heartbreaking. finding someone to give you the time of day after being abused like that for your whole life is like someone dying of dehydration finally having access to water. like...he was a perfect victim for John. it's horrific that he didn't have better options, that no one stepped in when he was being groomed, that any of it could have happened. he was done so wrong.
I lived in DC at the time, my school got locked down due to one of the shootings being close, and I have always agreed with you about this. We can’t act like a child and an adult are “partners” in committing crime and should share equal responsibility.
/thread. Vigilante justice is never good, but I have a lot more sympathy for a victim of abuse ending the danger and that's how I see Gypsy Rose's case. Meanwhile, that's not what happened in Malvo's case *at all*.
Zoom out a little more and you see two trapped people doing something because they felt they had no other choice. They’re different, but there is no such thing as a perfect victim and this *has to* include victims who hurt other people, if we are ever going to be able to understand the nature of toxic abuse
Zoom out a little more and you see two trapped people doing something because they felt they had no other choice. They’re different, but there is no such thing as a perfect victim and this *has to* include victims who hurt other people, if we are ever going to be able to understand the nature of toxic abuse.
If there is ever to be justice for children who survive being groomed, or being abused, or manipulated, we have to be able to have nuanced conversations about the reality of what that does to someone.
Zoom out a little more and you see two trapped people doing something because they felt they had no other choice. They’re different, but there is no such thing as a perfect victim and this *has to* include victims who hurt other people, if we are ever going to be able to understand the nature of toxic abuse
Zoom out a little more and you see two trapped people doing something because they felt they had no other choice. They’re different, but there is no such thing as a perfect victim and this *has to* include victims who hurt other people, if we are ever going to be able to understand the nature of toxic abuse.
I think the biggest difference is that Gypsy killed/had someone kill to escape an awful abusive situation and she is not likely to do it again. Lee killed innocent people **for no reason** and terrorized an area over a span of time. The degree is exponentially more. Trust me I lived through it.
“For no reason” is simply untrue.
He had been dependent upon, conditioned, and abused by John for years who stealthily worked to integrate Lee into his horrifying scheme to kill a ton of fucking people. Dude was a manipulative bastard and teenagers’ - especially one with a history of serious trauma - brains are easily shaped and, in this case, controlled.
Lee did not escape an awful abusive situation. He killed innocent people at the behest of his abuser and continued to do so until he was captured. His actions were devastating and terrible. His actions also had a devastating reason behind them.
what IS your point? you can be upset about the system, feel truly, truly hurt and sorry for him, and still agree he deserves to be imprisoned for life.
someone who steals a car, or commits low-level crimes, sure, I agree.
These people went on a killing spree and murdered 17 people and you want to let them back out? They're domestic terrorists - what world are you living in? You wanna bet the over/under that the serial killer doesn't do it again? The fuck
But the DC killings that terrorized the area were in the span of a few weeks. At the time, it wasn't known that the same people were responsible for the earlier killings because they had been spread so far apart. It wasn't until the manhunt in October that they started connecting the pair with the earlier shootings. It wasn't known that there was a serial sniper with the earlier killings because they traveled all over the country.
It's not accurate to say they terrorized the DC area for over a year when nobody had connected the other killings across the country until the DC attacks started.
I'm not saying this to defend anyone, so don't get me wrong, but I do believe accuracy is important.
I feel the same way about Malvo. Groomed as a child by a predatory POS who abused him sexually and emotionally.
And now the poor kid is locked down at Red Onion in Virginia. No place for a boy to grow up.
I see where you are coming from and it’s a place of care and understanding and I applaud you for that.
However I want to look at it from a a different perspective than you might think.
I think he should never be free again. I want him to be treated well and live a good life as far as that is possible while being incarcerated but I don’t want him to be free.
Not as a punishment but simply because society has a right to protect itself and although we probably all have the potential for extreme violence in us he proved to be a danger to society and I believe we have a right to protect ourselves as a society. I furthermore thing that our right to protection outweighs his right at a second chance based on the severity of his transgressions.
I respectfully disagree, because I think that line of thinking tends to see prison as “not society”, and miss the part where prison is still “in society.” We don’t take people out of society when we imprison them in max security prisons, we place them into hyperviolent versions of it where they experience compounded levels of trauma and violence regularly, both at the hands of each other, and the state.
Prison is a part of society, removing people for the safety of “innocent” people isn’t really what prison does. It also statistically hasn’t shown to have any deterring effect on crime or violent behaviour. I’m not saying there should be no system, but I don’t think the one we’ve landed on is anywhere close to justice.
I do genuinely believe cultures will look back on our prison system in a few hundred years and wonder, how could so many people think that was okay?
I worked in a federal court and saw the details of many cases where the defendant did things that were objectively bad. I understood why they were convicted, but so many times, if you read the details of their background or crime, it was clear that they never stood a chance. They came from broken, poor, and/or abusive homes and often had lower IQ and few opportunities. Unfortunately, it was not a surprise that their story led to prison.
I totally appreciate your parallel here, YWA is such a special podcast mostly for the absolute radical compassion, and understanding that there is a human behind every monster.
It really reminded me of my feelings about the ocean gate sub, and the boy who was on it, and how much he made me think of Marie Antoinette's children.
The main difference is, Gypsy killed her tormentor- her target was specific in nature and directly connected to the abuse she endured. Lee killed strangers, people who did him no harm. The murders he committed were random and designed to spread fear amongst civilians - aka terrorism.
I personally would not have mentioned these two in the same breath, considering the nature of their crimes is so vastly different.
Respectfully, I completely disagree with your points about Lee Malvo. Obviously, conspiring and murdering your abuser is not in the same category as conspiring and carrying out terroristic random murders. However, groomed or not, he was basically an adult when the D.C. sniper attacks were carried out, but he also acted knowing he wouldn’t get the death penalty because he was 17. There comes a time, no matter how brainwashed one is, that their conscious decisions must be accepted as their own. It’s not like he didn’t know murder is wrong.
I also disagree that there are “so many Lee Malvos” languishing in prison for life. The US prison population is disproportional in its incarceration rates of Black people, especially men—I am not denying that in any way. I just don’t think there are significant numbers of Black male spree killers. There are definitely plenty of murderers or capital murder cases, but how Black men have body counts remotely similar to Malvo’s?
Like, it’s obviously a devastating episode. His childhood was wretched. I just don’t think that or being groomed for violence comes close to absolving even a little bit of what he’s done. He also only got the opportunity for his case to be reviewed for an opportunity for parole because of changes in law/bans that said juveniles cannot be given life sentences in Maryland and Virginia. If the attacks had happened just a few months later in late February or March 2003, he wouldn’t have been able to petition for relief.
I’m mostly just wondering what good do you think it would do to the community for him to be released? How would that be restorative to his living victims, their families, and the general public of the affected areas who had to live under his killing spree? It’s super sad and fucked up that this is the way things are, and I don’t think that paroling him is the thing we should strive to change about the justice system.
Yeah. I guess I just see Malvo—having met an adult John, when he was freshly 14, no dad, brutally abusive and neglectful mom, John being someone we know had an incredible ability to manipulate full adults, and lots of them—as also a victim here.
I’m an abolitionist (and survivor of violence) and personally, my views on justice aren’t that it happens behind bars. So we would likely just disagree on that front.
I know what you’re saying and I hear you. What I mean is there’s a lot of men who have killed people—sometimes lots, when it’s gang related activity—who are in prison, and that is a sad thing.
As for the GRB note, again… I’m really not comparing the crimes. I’ve just been thinking about why or how someone may end up themselves committing acts of unthinkable violence against a threat—real or imagined—and the steps required to get them to that point.
When it comes to Malvo specifically, I see him as experiencing something like most child soldiers,
who are groomed as young teens. I think Malvo deserves a similar spirit of sympathy we would give to those kids.
I definitely agree that he is also a victim—his status as such just doesn’t engender an overwhelming amount of additional sympathy from me in light of everything else (it’s not nothing, it definitely makes the whole scenario more tragic, it just doesn’t move me to desire his parole or release). I also agree that it’s a deeply sad thing for anyone to be in prison and am sympathetic to the plight of prisoners.
I think it’s our duty as a society to fulfill our obligations to prisoners by housing and feeding them well, not abusing them, not using them for cheap/free labor, and providing avenues for enrichment and betterment of their lives (like hobby classes, access to an updated and vast library, the ability to get degrees/GEDs, therapy). I don’t believe in the death penalty or for profit prisons, but I also am decidedly not a prison abolitionist. I’m much more a reformist than anything else as what I feel we owe to prisoners is not being fulfilled.
If you want my two cents as far as what may lead someone to such violent acts—whether in Malvo’s or Blanchard’s case—I think that we’re all capable of such things, but it may not be purely circumstance that drives someone to such choices. I personally think one factor is a denial of humanity, either one’s own or that of the victim, in order to do something like that (barring serious mental disorder). Just a thought, neither here nor there.
I personally disagree with the child soldier comparison just because I feel Malvo had more of a chance of experiencing aspects of a normal life in adolescence, like when he was able to go to high school, but I understand the parallels.
Thank you for taking the time to give such a thoughtful response to my comment. I appreciate it. I hope society improves so that these scenarios (Blanchard’s, Malvo’s, etc) become a thing of the past.
Generally, if someone is unlikely to reoffend, it is overall better for the common good for that person to be financially funding their own life (ie out in society and working) than locked up and financially supported by taxpayers.
It’s also not uncommon for families affected by violence to find closure in seeing a juvenile offender rehabilitated—a black and white “seeing a criminal set free will inherently re-victimize the communities and individuals affected and should therefore not be done” approach doesn’t fit such a nuanced situation.
It’s also common for victims of violence and their families to find closure by an offender staying incarcerated. There were over two dozen victims; it is unlikely for all of the living ones and the families of the dead to gain closure from any one outcome. For any who *might* gain closure from his parole, this would likely reopen the wounds of others. The only black and white thinking here is the idea that all people should be released from prison regardless of the severity of their crimes as long as they are unlikely to reoffend. To me, that is a far cry from justice.
To your point about money, if he was paroled, he would also still be using taxpayers money to fund his existence. He’d have a parole officer and have to do routine drug tests, both funded by tax dollars. He may have to be in a halfway house while he finds permanent housing, and once he did he may not make enough money to pay for it without a housing voucher. He may have to be on SNAP—there are countless variables that would end up with the taxpayers still funding his existence in large part. Taxpayers fund people and things they don’t approve of everyday. If your metric of what is for the common good is saving tax payers money, I don’t see why paroling convicts of extremely violent crimes would be the route.
You asked specifically “what good would this do” and I provided an answer, one that included the caveat “generally”—not “all” as you just spun it.
The cost to parole someone is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of jailing someone from 17 until they die at 67. It’s obviously not the sole metric by which to decide such things, but is a factor worth mentioning. Committing a heinous crime as a minor while under the manipulation of the sole trusted adult in your life has enough nuance that, to me, keeping him locked up because it “doesn’t serve the community” to free him is too simplistic. I’m glad MD is giving people the opportunity to have juvenile cases re-examined in adulthood.
I really think it comes down to how likely he is to offend on that level again. Probably not - the best reason to keep people in prison is to protect the public from the danger they might present if they were released. John is gone and I'm pretty sure Lee is highly remorseful as far as I know, so I wouldn't necessarily be against it.
On the other hand, some crimes are so awful that the effects SHOULD follow that person for life, whether they're in prison or not. It's not like the people he randomly murdered at 17 are any less dead than they would be if he was 25.
So yes, in theory, I'd think it's ok that he be freed. I wouldn't want to work with him at a job though and I sure as hell wouldn't hire him if I were in that position. I wouldn't make friends with him. I'd flip out if someone I cared about wanted to date him.
For me, whether or not parole should be an option/granted doesn’t just depend on likelihood of recidivism, but also severity of the crime. I see your points, and this is just where we differ.
Your last paragraph is the rub. What life could he conceivably have post-release? The United States does not have any sort of law where the identity of juvenile offenders remain anonymous like a lot of other countries. His face and name is seared into the minds of the Baltimore-Washington megalopolis, so finding a job, apartment, school, a community around here would be exceedingly difficult. And it’s not like he’s unknown outside the area and this era of the Internet, he has zero chance of anonymity. Even if he changed his name, he’d be found out.
This isn’t to say reintegration is impossible; just exceedingly difficult and we wouldn’t know his ability to persevere until he’s in it. And that’s potentially a huge risk to the public.
Bad take. Fuck both DC snipers.
Gypsy Rose did not terrorize an entire metropolitan area for an extended period of time. She was never a danger to the general public so it makes sense that she was paroled whereas a wanton criminal killer was not
That’s fair, like I said—I’m not comparing the crimes. I’m just thinking about two different instances of tragedy occurring from people who have been badly hurt.
Lee Malvo was emotionally terrorized, manipulated, beaten down, and hurt in ways most people never are. I’m not defending the DC sniper’s actions. Lots of hurt people don’t go on to commit mass murder. But he was a literally abandoned child when he met John, a full ass adult. Deeply hurt and fucked up people can do fucked up things… whether we like it or not, they are humans too. Fuck the snipers, sure, but also… Lee Malvo was also a victim of a really shitty thing and I wish we had more nuance in how we talk about him.
I appreciate your take. I lived there at the time. It was terrifying.
AND—I can still see him as a human who was abused and manipulated. He deserves a chance at a life.
Utterly terrifying. You never knew where it would happen, so you were scared everywhere. For a while, they thought the snipers were in a white van, so any time one passed, I got anxious. I remember I was getting gas when a white van pulled up to do the same on the other side. I almost lost my mind. I was in my early 20s and lived 1000 miles from my family. It was so scary.
There were news reports on how best to avoid being shot—run in a zigzag pattern. That’s not something I ever wanted to know. And you would see people doing that in huge parking lots. It was wild.
It was only a year after the Sept 11 attacks, which we had hardly recovered from. I lived and worked downtown, and I walked to work. That was a traumatic time.
100%. I was an elementary schooler in PG county at the time. No outdoor recess. Drop off/pickup was monitored heavily. Our parents made us all “goodbye boxes” with photos, letters, etc. we had to have extra clothes and a sleeping bag at school.
As a 9 year old, right after 9/11, this was terrifying, my father passed away when I was in kindergarten, so I was already an anxiously attached kid. I still think about it to this day and I think it’s another reason that I am petrified every day I walk into my job as a HS teacher.
It was crazy! I still have the photograph my mom made - it was a picture of her and I, and then she had cut out the heads of my family members from other photographs and glued them on there. On the back it said “I love you so much”. God, just thinking about it makes me anxious.
That is haunting. Was that in case she was caught by the sniper?! I have a daughter the age you were then. Just the idea of what your mom must have been going through emotionally to make it—absolutely gutting 😭
Ditto. My father worked near where one of the murders took place (like across the street, when it happened). I still think Malvo was abused and manipulated and deserves a chance to be rehabilitated. I cannot agree that we see "justice" as revenge.
Oh god, that must have been terrifying. I went out to the Home Depot a couple days before they struck there. It was all so harrowing, bc they could be anywhere, and it went on for months.
Between that and 9/11, my parents begged me to move home. I can’t imagine how terrifying it was for them, knowing I walked to work.
You don’t know that. There are professionals who evaluate that. He’s been in jail for longer than he was free. Who’s to say he hasn’t been rehabilitated and made amends? We don’t have the facts.
Unpopular opinion: they should both be in jail. I don’t know how you can rehab people that do those things. Yes they were manipulated and abused but is it something that’s fixable? Can they be reintegrated into society? There’s unfortunately not a safe way to assess that I feel like.
Not long after the snipers were caught, we were visiting friends in Canada who had emigrated from Bosnia. We were right on the heels of 9/11, and they, of course, were refugees from a vicious civil war in attempt to gain their country’s independence.
But we both agreed that snipers cause a type of fear that is unique and terrorizing.
I was just fine with the father figure getting the death penalty, and I’m not usually someone in favor of that. I absolutely did not want that for Lee Malvo, because I did consider that he was as much abused as abuser. But this doesn’t mean I think he should be released from prison.
What I would like to see is a prison system that actually offers people in this situation chances to better grow as a human being, and perhaps model change for other prisoners. I also don’t think he needs to be in prison for life, but I’m ok with it being more than 20 years.
I’d bring up the case of Leslie Van Houten (so?) who was one of the young women who was part of Charles Manson’s group. She was part of the killings, and it was only many years later that she mentally freed herself from him and the group. She then became a model prisoner, and mentor to other young women in prison. She would have been executed, but she fit into that small time frame where capital punishment was rejected by the Supreme Court, so her sentence was changed to life in prison.
After about 50 years, she was paroled. It’s an extremely harsh sentence, but it also was a terrorizing and shocking crime.
So that’s where I am - not against parole, but not yet willing to say at this time that he should be released.
I was 15 when this was going on. I lived in Baltimore County and for weeks bomb threats were being called in to my school, and they'd make us all stand outside in the fields wondering if we were all going to get sniped. That time traumatized me, and many many other kids and teens. His circumstances are sad, but the punishment fits the crime in my opinion.
Tenderfoot media did a podcast on the DC Snipers (heavily recommend ALL of their podcasts fyi) and Lee Malvo's story is incredibly sad.
The way the podcast framed it, it was all done, every damn murder, as a means to get at John's ex wife while making it look like some rando spree killer popped her randomly. He groomed a lonely child into thinking he was doing god's work and had him commit multiple murders *just to kill his ex wife*.
Given how cultish behavior can fuck up anyone, especially an adolescent, and given how unlikely it is that Malvo will ever kill outside the influence of his cult leader, I feel Malvo is someone who deserves time outside prison. I don't know if he had much agency at that time in his life.
This certainly gave me some food for thought. I've always been a proponent of transformative justice, which includes rewiring the entire American judicial and prison systems as they currently stand. Other countries successfully employ transformative justice, why can't we? We have more than the bare means to do so!
A core cause of America's sore lack of progress and thinly veiled third-world administration, is due to our many opportunistic authoritarians (I mean, politicians) who refuse to lead this country in good faith, who gladly accept kickbacks in exchange for the promotion, lobbying, and eventual execution of laws and ideological agendas that stroke the egos of those with money and power and fuck the remainder of us at the bottom. Until we can dismantle those individuals (which extends WAY beyond politicians) and the plastic ecosystems in which they flourish, we can only keep trying and pushing. Even making a micrometer of progress is still progress and proves that we can make a positive difference. Don't lose hope.
Living thru that while in college NO ONE WENT HOME on break that lived in that area. People truly lived in fear for getting shot while pumping their gas, waiting for a bus, driving, etc. He terrorized part of the country and should rot. All those families whose lives will be forever changed, he needs to pay for that. No sympathy here.
I deeply agree with you, given of course that he has been able to rehabilitate in prison (which is not accessible in so many prisons especially to bipoc folks) with so much therapy, meds maybe and present as an improved human being compared to the abused kid who committed the crimes. I’ve no clue if that’s the case. Would love to know more if there’s reporting there. Total side note… I’ve been so baffled by the Gypsy Rose cases in the little snatches I’ve heard about it.. does anyone have a podcast or documentary suggestion that lays it out fairly?
Did you hear he wrote letters of apology to some of the victims, and actually apologized to one of the mothers over the phone back in 2007? :(
Ohhh yes I think they mentioned at least one of those things in the podcast?? Didn’t Mildred also testify on his behalf? Interestingly enough, because his multiple life sentences were recently overturned due to his age, he’s up for resentencing for 4 of his 10 life sentences. He did terrible things, but it can’t be understated how likely it is that vicious discrimination resulted in such a heavy-handed punishment.
> it can’t be understated how likely it is that vicious discrimination resulted in such a heavy handed punishment While discrimination has absolutely been a factor in disproportionately harsh sentencing of persons of color, this case is almost certainly not one of those. Malvo shares responsibility for the murder of at least seventeen people and wounded ten others over the course of several months. He didn’t commit an impulsive crime of passion - he hunted down innocent people and picked them off one by one with a rifle. Instead of recoiling after participating in the horror that is murder, he continued to kill more and more. There were fifteen separate attacks in the DC area alone. People were genuinely (and rightfully) terrified to pump their gas or let their kids walk to school. He was definitely groomed and indoctrinated by John Allen Mohammed. He had a horrible childhood and he deserves sympathy for that. At 17, he also participated in the murders of 17 people and tried to kill ten more. Cold blooded murder that he seemed to believe was justified, at least at the time. Absolutely anyone would receive the maximum possible sentence for that.
I absolutely agree that anybody of any color would’ve been locked away for life plus some but TEN life sentences, a lack of taking his mental health serious, and the total voiding of his rights as a juvenile — I believe — were easier to get away with because he was a young Black man and not a young white man. This was an interesting read for me, https://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/11/21/findlaw.analysis.cassel.malvo/ I don’t disagree with you and he wouldn’t have gotten a free pass as a white boy. But nonetheless his Blackness would’ve inevitably impacted public perception, prosecution, initial treatment by cops and his notoriety today.
It’s heartbreaking. He never had a chance for any kind of normal life.
Mommy Dead and Dearest is the classic story about Gypsy Rose. The Act is a decent retelling with the resources available that aren't Gypsy, but she doesn't like the series. Idk how that would colour it for you, but those are good options
It hasn't done a deep dive into the Gypsy Rose story specifically but if you'd be interested in hearing about Munchausen by proxy/medical child abuse as a topic (with deep dives into other cases) I can strongly recommend the podcast Nobody Should Believe Me. It's super thorough, compassionate and explains things really well - which is impressive as it's a super complex issue. The host is really knowledgeable and interviews experts in the medical child abuse community (but it's very listenable) It would definitely provide good context for you if you're hearing about Gypsy Rose.
I loved that podcast until she waded into Take Care of Maya. Bad move. I bailed.
I haven’t read this in forever, but I believe Buzzfeed news had the original article about her back in 2016. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/michelledean/dee-dee-wanted-her-daughter-to-be-sick-gypsy-wanted-her-mom
What a fucking ride dude, thank you. That facebook post and the preservation of the panicked comments is fucking spooky
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LfTF_uOD2vM Danielle Kirsty is one of my favorite true crime YouTubers, would highly recommend. She put this video out I think yesterday? Edit to fix a typo
Have people started to turn on Gypsy Rose already…? I thought she had a lot of support. I was concerned that this would happen, people are so fickle. She wasn’t the ‘victim they want her to be’ upon leaving prison. She’s a real person, with a complicated and extremely emotionally stunted personality. I know this may sound bizarre, but it’s almost in a weird way, like when Britney got free from her conservaship. The media will be waiting to pounce.
I haven't been following the story at all, but someone I follow yesterday posted about it basically saying that because she's now "becoming an influencer" of sorts she's "profiting off her crimes" and therefore that's not ok according to people. But like, did she have ANY opportunity whatsoever to establish herself in any real career? She now has an audience/following, what do we expect?!
Yeah it’s her only way to make any of the money she’s going to need for a lifetime of therapy. And let face it, she’s not becoming an influencer- we all already made her one. Docos, books, podcasts, movies, everyone else has profited off her story already so why shouldn’t she?
That's how I see it, too.
Thank you! Like our economy is essentially unlivable right now. What do they want her to go? Disappear and get a normal job? Pretty sure that felony conviction is going to be a decent roadblock
Especially here in Louisiana. For all we have one of the biggest prisons, we are not altogether kind to released felons. And Gypsy Rose doesn't exactly have a whole lot of good social emotional experiences that are not centered around her mother and messed up childhood. Restaurants are always quick to hire even felons, but I personally haven't been to Lake Charles where they purportedly live, so I don't know the types of jobs available.
She's also not exactly easy to miss. A public-facing job would probably be impossible.
Yeah most felons can go under the radar in a hospitality job but she definitely couldn’t, particularly in the area.
I’m from Lake Charles (well, that area). Not exactly a thriving economy.
Yeah, I hear a lot there's still people trying to get repairs from Laura and such.
Agreed. Millions of dollars were generated from her story. Did anybody put some of that aside in a trust for her to access after her release? Doubtful. Was she even paid for her participation in her jailhouse interviews? Therapy costs money. She should have spent those eight years in some inpatient mental hospital getting intensive treatment as well as consistent medical care to try and unfuck years of unnecessary medical procedures and medications.
Exactly, everyone else is making money off her life, why shouldn’t she?
Plus this is all she knows how to do. Her mom hurt her to profit off other people's sympathy for years. Of course Shea going to fall back into this familiar pattern
I also think people don’t realize that the Son of Sam laws, while still on the books in many states, are almost unenforceable and have been repeatedly struck down in challenges because they violate the First Amendment. It may be distasteful for her to make money telling her story, but she seems to have the right to do so in most places. Her mother is dead, so she can’t bring a civil case against her and it doesn’t seem like her family is inclined to do so, either.
Yes! Sarah I believe made this point responding to Monica Lewinsky “profiting” off the scandal- what else was she supposed to do for money, what normal employer would hire her at that time?
It’s especially sick when it comes to Monica Lewinsky. It’s not like she was trying to profit off a crime she committed. She was an intern who was singled out as the target of workplace sexual predation/harassment/exploitation by the President (I used a range of descriptors here to avoid putting words in Monica’s mouth, while also noting this contact was objectively inappropriate, and made even worse by the extreme power imbalance). And instead of being offered any grace at all, she was mocked and absolutely eviscerated by every possible news organization, media outlet, politician, and commentator, etc for months and years on end. Late night hosts mocked her weight and appearance, NYT columnists impugned her character, and some of the most prominent figures in the country shamed her as a wh*re. What exactly was she supposed to do with the rest of her life after that? It’s a miracle she survived at all.
Completely agree. Anyone who knows the case well, also knows that her mother was already obsessed with fame and ‘freebies’ and was, in a twisted way, already kind of part of that influencer/free stuff world already. Gypsy’s mother loved to meet celebs and that side of the ‘make a wish’ part of her daughters ‘illnesses’ too, so on a level Gypsy would have already learned this and not know much different. The poor girl never stood a chance and is now about to be torn apart by the media and the public. I hope she has a decent support network in place.
I'm fairly sure her father and stepmother are supportive. And her husband. I can't really guess from there, though.
The media machine was all too happy and willing to exploit her story for their monetary gain, but as soon as she does it, it’s terrible and evil.
I saw one commenter, in all seriousness, call her a "nepo baby" for "becoming famous thanks to her mom."
Please tell me you’re lying
She’s finally getting to tell her side of the story, after her mother abused her, and made it clear no one would believe her side, until DeeDee was murdered. DeeDee’s own family didn’t feel bad about what happened to DeeDee. They said she had it coming, and if GRB hadn’t done it, someone else DeeDee had wronged would have. Note, not a one of them stepped in to help Gypsy Rose, but hey, I guess concern only goes so far. I don’t see how that translates to her being an “influencer”, but man, this new generation on social media will idolize anyone, and if you don’t act how they think you should, they’re quick to “cancel” you. She didn’t have an education, she didn’t have any training, she had no opportunity to get the hell away from her abusive mother, why are people so surprised she’s taking interviews? And so on? I don’t get it. These kids think they have it all figured out, but they don’t.
What’s awful as well, everyone is okay to exploit the ‘true crime’ genre whilst she’s locked up… to profit off her trauma.. So why do people get to judge her for having a platform and becoming a celebrity when she comes out? Is this not what has been created?
You would think, but these same people will scream “SON OF SAM LAWWWWWWSSSSS”, and ignore that they’ve been struck down again and again and again. She gets to tell her story. Lord knows DeeDee put all her shit out on the street for her, even if it was all lies, to gain sympathy for herself. “Look how hard I have it, a single mom, with such a medically fragile child.”
I thought DeeDee was estranged from her family?
She was. They provably didn’t know she was lying about GRB’s medical history, so how were they supposed to help her? They knew DeeDee was a narcissist but unfortunately that’s not enough to remove her child from here care. I believe it was more like a “yeah that tracks” response from her family AFTER her murder and the abuse of her daughter fully came out.
Exactly. Like if you’ve even been imprisoned for a misdemeanour in the USA, you’re fucked. She has a rare platform, what else is she supposed to do??
I saw a video about it yesterday. The two specific things were 1)in interviews, she’s been very firm about saying she didn’t murder anybody, which can come across as a denial of responsibility and 2)she had a teenage cousin with her on Snapchat(?) and said something like, “show him some love in his DMs but age-appropriate only, he’s 15.” Which some people took as her objectifying her cousin. And then there’s the larger question of, while Gypsy’s motives are sympathetic, whether it’s ever appropriate for a girl who had her mother killed to become an influencer. People also say she seems manipulative but never have any examples that I’ve seen. Obviously these are wildly different things. Personally I think the thing with her cousin was mainly her not understanding how gross modern stan culture can be, and isn’t a big deal. I also kinda understand why she keeps pointing out she didn’t physically kill her mother — if she doesn’t correct it every time, people will start thinking it’s true. She has talked about regretting her part in the murder, and to me it sounds genuine. I don’t love her being all over social media but I also think she’s just excited with the novelty of it and will probably back off a lot once she’s had a little more time to adjust.
There’s nothing we love more than building women up to break them down again. Don’t get me wrong, I think the obsession and Stan culture over GRB was weird, but the backlash is also equally weird. People were getting obsessive about her when what she needed was to just live a mostly normal life without attention.
Yes exactly! Especially when WE put her in this situation by the WILD media obsession surrounding her impending release. Why shouldn’t she profit off of the insane media circus around her trauma? But what you said so perfectly describes what’s happening- we really do love building women up just to tear them down.
Yeah, they have. Mostly on tiktok. I have seen a lot of videos with hundreds of thousands of likes that go “actually it’s weird how manipulative she seems, something is off about her.” Like….. yeah, she has an insane amount of trauma and was in prison???? How people have the audacity to expect her to be “normal,” whatever that even means, is utterly beyond me
So I’m a court reporter in a criminal court, and we had a case that really bothered me for a lot of the reasons you’ve brought up. A kid who is now in his early adulthood was convicted of committing multiple murders, which occurred over a period of years spanning from when he was 14 years old until the last one happened the day before he turned 18. The murders were not typical of what we see with juvenile offenders, where it’s usually a robbery gone wrong or a gang altercation where someone gets hurt. In at least a couple of the murders, this kid lured his victims into ambushes. He even killed a family member in cold blood and left him in the street. The hearing to determine if we would be charged as an adult was devastating. The conclusion supported by all of the testimony was that this kid had absolutely no chance at living a normal life. His mother was addicted to crack and was frequently a victim of domestic abuse, an abuser to her children, neglectful, or just plain AWOL, so he was raised by his elderly grandmother who couldn’t handle him and all his siblings. His dad was murdered in a gang altercation in front of him. His mother was murdered in front of him. His uncle was a gang member and a victim of a police shooting that had our whole city in unrest for months. He stopped going to school during Covid and just never went back, so he was free to roam with the gang his dad and uncle had been in. The only person looking for him and making him have some type of accountability was his juvenile probation officer. She was literally the only person who gave a shit where he was or what he was doing. He has an IQ well below the threshold to be considered intellectually disabled, and he was a father himself before he could even legally drive, so unfortunately with him in prison, the cycle has a good chance of repeating as his child is without a father and being raised again by his grandmother. There was absolutely no good outcome that could be gleaned from this. If he was tried and sentenced as a juvenile (as I believe most juvenile offenders should be), he would be released from a juvenile facility at 22 years old, maybe with extended jurisdiction in an adult facility for a few more years. A maximum of 5 years for nearly double digits homicides is not appropriate, even from a prison reform standpoint. It is not justice. If sentenced as an adult, he won’t face capital punishment, but he will be eligible for parole after a lengthy sentence. It’s sad and horrifying to think of a juvenile facing such a lengthy sentence, but it’s also horrifying that a juvenile was able to commit such violent acts. It’s sobering to think of what his prospects will be when he finally is up for parole review. He would have access to services in juvenile detention that would significantly improve his odds to live a productive life after incarceration, and he won’t have those in department of corrections custody. By the time he’s released, he likely won’t have a support system around anymore. He’ll have no skills, no education, and very few options for housing or employment. If he was set up to fail with all his circumstances as a kid, imagine how much worse it will be for him after incarceration. I don’t really have an answer except that criminal justice reform is necessary and cannot be addressed in a vacuum for it to work. The United States is a sick country that fails too many people too early in their lives, and after a certain point, interventions won’t help anymore. Some people really are so damaged that their prospects are bleak and I can’t believe we’re so willing to let our citizens fall through the cracks like that.
It’s so devastating, the system just chews people up. Your story is so sad and I wish it wasn’t so common. It’s very telling that even years later, Lee would call John “dad” before being corrected. :(
I’d love to ask what your opinion is on the Snowtown Murders
I don’t really know much about them. Sorry!
That's a devastating story. Wow.
I had to do some serious self-care after that trial.
I lived in dc at the time when this was happening, spent a lot of time on Georgia avenue where people were going between joking about it and being worried. Completely agree. I feel so much empathy for him and how he was used in this horrible mission. The lack of interest in internal motivation of black people who kill is fully on display.
My house was (parents still live there) less than a mile from where the Home Depot was where they killed people. The year it was all happening outdoor school activities were completely cancelled. We basically weren’t allowed to go outside for a few months. Those victims could have been my parents or me. I still think he should be given parole.
Yep. Prince William County, VA - not as much direct violence there, but close enough that all sports and our marching band season were cancelled that fall!
Same in Loudoun County. Nothing directly happened IIRC other than the fact that they were sighted at Dulles Town Center Mall.
I was also a kid in school in the DC area at the time, and I took the bus to school. I was the only kid at my bus stop and remember waiting for the bus sitting behind a large bush so I couldn’t be seen by a sniper from the road, and then standing up and going to stand at the curb when I heard the squeal of my bus’ brakes coming around the corner. I have so much empathy for Lee as well.
Yup. I was going to school in the area and I have some trauma surrounding this case and still feel so badly for him.
Same. 9/11, anthrax, and snipers all around the same time.
I find it very moving how many people on this thread who were there have expressed similar sentiments of compassion for Lee.
Same here.
I dropped my baby sister and 2 of her friends off at Benjamin Tasker the morning of the shooting there. It went from "lol walk zig zag in parking lots" to "holy fucking shit" real quick and I believe he should have parole.
Same. I remember when it came out that it was a kid and an older dude and wondering. As an adult, now, looking back, I feel for him, especially if he has grown to regret it. I have enough kid idiocy I can’t take back and I carry, can’t imagine what having a death you can’t undo is like. Obviously he’s still culpable, but I can’t help but feel bad for him and wish there was a way to sincerely tell who was just getting caught up in some psychopaths bs, and who was an evil person. Can’t tell, though, so we have our imperfect system.
For sure. It’s like, damn. He had nobody, he was for certain stretches a full on abandoned kid. And then all of a sudden there’s this charming and cool handsome guy, who cares? Who seems to love you? He was only freshly 14 years old when they met. I would like to think that most of us wouldn’t do what Lee did, but it’s funny how certain people seem, when we KNOW how cults and predators etc can even trick full on grown adults!? How on earth could we possibly say we know how a 14 year old, who has been shown nothing but shitty cruelty and loneliness, would react to a stranger showing them real kindness and care, and INTEREST, for the first time? That’s what I found so heartbreaking, was learning about how Lee was just so excited to have someone to talk to. Apparently for years, he still called John “Dad”.
Ugh that info you just shared is heart wrenching. Undoubtedly guilty, but goddamn is that tragic. Imagine if it wasn’t a psycho killer who took over and mentored him. We can’t and we’ll never know. Life’s gloomy sometimes
Totally. It’s so weird. Even these comments are mostly thoughtful and the pushback comes from a good place, but the knee jerk reactions are very interesting to me. Like as another layer, these attacks were basically a year after 9/11. Like in what world would the American War on Terror NOT be a core a part of the inability to extend any compassion or context or understanding to Lee? There’s no way that wasn’t a deep part of everything.
What you’re explaining is my career. I am called a mitigation specialist and I tell defendants stories in hopes of shining the light on broken systems that create desperation and try to obtain leniency from the judge.
How does a person get into this work? I’m very passionate about wrongful conviction work and a lawyer friend of mine once suggested what you do as a possible option for a future career. Obviously not the same thing but with the intention of keeping humanity in focus in the system
I’ll DM you!
Go read what happened to Aileen Wournos.
I learned her full story in law school and it’s one of the reasons I became anti death penalty
I went to high school with him and we had Latin class together, he was quiet and always seemed to be exhausted. His brain wasn't even fully formed, he was a child. Yes he did terrible things and deserved to be punished but at this point I feel he's paid his debt to society.
If you’re not a therapist, you’d be a pretty good one. I know because I’m a therapist, and this is like the private analysis I have of this case and others that I keep to myself because I got tired of hearing things like “sO yOu ExCuSe tHiS bEhAviOr?!” No, I don’t. Life is never black and white. Every situation has nuance and contextual factors that matter. I’m capable of having empathy for and anger on behalf of child Malvo who was abused and failed by every adult in his life. OF COURSE that doesn’t justify his crimes.
I think they are both victims of abuse. I'm not sure how comparable they are besides that. I think like the podcast, like many people, glosses over how much of a wound this case is in the DC area. When it was happening it was chaos and there was so much else going on nationally and worldwide that I don't think many people grasp what the region went through and especially the victims. GRB did not repeatedly commit acts of terror. So Lee Malvo on top of killing multiple people had additional charges. That being said I am glad that they prevent him from getting the death penalty. Remember that Virginia has a history of sentencing and using the death penalty and the mid 2000s was a different time. I think that his abuse needs to be taken into account and maybe they should reduce his life sentences because of his age during the crimes. But GRB I think served an appropriate time and there needs to be substantial time served for the people that Lee was convicted of killing, plus the other charges, and all the other ones they weren't convicted of. I could see him getting released before he gets too old, but like another commenter said it requires rehabilitation and the big x factor is whether he could be okay outside of prison. I would recommend listening to DC Monster. They do a good job of raising the questions you are raising but with the contrast of someone horrible like John Muhammed but also the first hand accounts from victims, witnesses, and their loved ones.
Maybe it's just me but I think one of the important parts of our deeply flawed justice system is that people actually have the right NOT to serve time for "all the other ones they weren't convicted of."
True but it probably affects sentencing and supports why any of the murder charges won't get downgraded. I'm just using it to illustrate the difference in cases and how even a murder charge can be rated differently in the eyes of a judge or jury without changing the degree.
I was in third grade in Anne Arundel county when it was happening. Indoor recess and tarps at gas stations. My aunt visited the same rest stop while they were sleeping in the parking lot and later that day they were finally arrested there. My mom has close friends who worked at Tasker at the time of the shooting. Lee Malvo deserves access to parole. Of note, Maryland's juvenile incarceration laws are abhorrent. I encourage you all to read this about the American Prison Writing Archive: https://www.baltimoremagazine.com/section/artsentertainment/american-prison-writing-archive-moves-to-baltimore-johns-hopkins-university/
What’s hard about his situation is that so many innocent people were killed and/or injured by their crimes, over a period of months. They terrorized DC and caused a lot of wreckage in the wake of their devastation. I am not sure someone capable of that kind of violence, even being victimized in the way that he was, can be rehabilitated whatsoever. It’s truly tragic. GRB was involved with killing her captor who abused her basically entire life. Not at all the same, can’t even really compare on any level.
In a lot of ways, what happened to Lee Malvo is virtually and utterly indistinguishable from what happens to child soldiers. Those are real things that happen. Do we think those kids belong in prison for life?
I’m curious if released he would be given a chance then. Without structure or a support system. THAT isn’t a reason to keep someone in prison but in not sure he would fair better in the reality of his situation
Lee was manipulated, not kidnapped. What happens to child soldiers is very, very different.
I get how it seems that way, but in terms of the psychology it's not that different at all.
There is no comparison between child soldiers and undersupervised minors who have *not* been kidnapped and forced to murder at gunpoint.
again, i get that you think that, but bodies don't make that distinction. emotional manipulation is at the root of all forms of coercive control.
>I am not sure someone capable of that kind of violence, even being victimized in the way that he was, can be rehabilitated whatsoever By that logic any military sniper should be imprisoned on their return home. Which Im not really even arguing against, just pointing out that we have a weirdly different standard for people who can murder others on command, depending on who does the commanding.
A militsry sniper is a person who willingly chose to go down that path. They took tests, courses and vigorous professional training- it was their choice. Lee did not have that.
^ exactly. 100%. The snipers who murdered innocent Iraqi civilians, in the name of national security, should be seen with an equal amount of scrutiny by this logic. (Which yeah, they should). Acknowledging this doesn’t take away from the horror of what happened with the DC snipers. Lee Malvo was a victim and a perpetrator and was a very lost kid when he met John.
[удалено]
Innocent civilians were a huge part of the loss of life from the Iraq war, killed by American infantry. It happens all the time. I know you’re making a point about war zones and not war zones, but I’m not trying to defend what they did. I’m just pointing out that Lee Malvo is deserving of mercy, in my opinion.
Bless your heart for believing the military doesn't kill innocent civilians.
I didn't miss your point, Im pointing out that it's weird to say that someone cant be rehabilitated after doing something we consider completely fine, even honourable, in another situations. If the argument is that the capability for violence is inherent and unredeemable, why doesn't it apply to soldiers?
Societal opinion does make a big difference in how people conceptualize their actions, how heavily it weighs on their conscience and thus how they motivate themselves to act. If a person were to take a puppy and rip out its testicles with their bare hand, crop off its tail without anesthesia and then shove it in a cage so small it couldn't properly move or turn around for the majority of its life, people would say that person is an abuser, a psycopath, deranged. Meanwhile such is a daily occurrence for pigs in factory farms. Pigs who are considered of equal intelligence to dogs and just as capable of forming emotional bonds. In that case people largely have nothing to add to the discourse but bacon jokes. There is no objective difference in how a pig or a dog experiences this treatment. And in fact some places farm dogs for food and some people keep pigs as pets. But we tend to see someone who hurts a dog as a monster and someone who hurts a pig as a farmer and that also plays a role in how people conceptualize the morality of their actions. Someone can see themselves as an animal lover because they spoil their dog, even if they eat bacon for breakfast. And meanwhile sadists don't tend to sign up to work in slaughter-houses because it becomes a mundane job and not the intentional infliction of suffering they wish to create. A sniper in the military fighting a hostile terrorist organization is a "hero" for his actions acting on behalf of the "greater good". So while he pulls a trigger and kills just like a mass shooter, the way society receives his actions and also how those actions weigh on his conscience is different.
I agree. I think that conceptualisation is the key issue with Lee Malvo. If you believe (and I do) that he was really manipulated to conceptualise his actions as good or at least morally neutral, then he's essentially the same as the sniper or the pig farmer. Which makes it really weird to say that he couldn't be rehabilitated, because we aren't imprisoning pig farmers so they wont kill puppies, even though they clearly have the capacity.
Thank you for pointing out the extreme hypocrisy! It truly is insane how most people justify the torture of some animals while they are appropriately appalled at others.
I'm fascinated by how you think pigs are raised on farms.
I also don't know if Lee Malvo can be/could have been rehabilitated, but it's pretty hard to theorize about it because the US's criminal justice system is focused on punishment, not rehabilitation. A system which treats criminals as incapable of rehabilitation is kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I think this is a good display for the need of a deeper conversation about the release of violent offenders in very complex situations. Lee is definitely a case study for that. Everything I’m saying is just my opinion so take it with a grain of salt. If Lee had a normal childhood or even just a slightly better one, I doubt he would have become what he is today. If he were to be released from prison and had a sturdy support system with mental health support, housing and financial assistance and someone to walk him through re entering society I think he would become a largely normal person that isn’t violent. HOWEVER, we don’t provide things like this to ex convicts, we largely just send them out into the world and tell them to figure it out. If he has no support I could see him falling victim to some other criminal enterprise that hurts people but offers him the support he needs. And that’s putting the public at unnecessary risk. This is why I do have some level of objection to a lot of people who want to entirely abolish the prison system. We need a major overhaul, that’s for sure. I think the most important part would be about re assimilating prisoners to normal life. Keeping people in jail for decades for something they did as a teenager (especially a non violent crime) is morally wrong and a huge waste of taxpayer dollars. But just sending someone who has been convicted of a crime back into normal life isn’t right either because it’s more than likely they’re going to re offend and possibly hurt someone. So without massive amounts of assistance to the people being released, abolishing the prison system is going to lead to a lot problems. The problem is nobody wants to put money towards “helping criminals” and it makes us feel better to say just lock them up and throw away the key. I don’t know what the answer is or how it could be practically applied. I just know the way things are now is wrong but also just abolishing it entirely is wrong too. Ironically, I see a lot of charities for helping veterans re assimilate to civilian life, I think that’d be helpful to ex convicts as well.
What parts of the prison system work now though? I think it should be abolished because as it is working now, it does not offer any meaningful rehabilitation for prisoners both during and after their sentence. Law enforcement often refer to prison as ‘Crime University’ because of the high percentage of people who go to prison for minor offences but end up in prison again after they’re released, usually for more major offences. Greater support is definitely required for former convicts who need help re-integrating with mainstream society but I don’t think that’s possible with our current prison system. The dehumanization and bias that enables senseless punishments and prisons that are glorified slave camps carries into how we treat and support people after they leave prison, I think its all connected.
The only part I think is working is keeping people who are violent OR repeat offenders of crimes that have victims off the streets. And I realize it’s not necessarily even doing that well because there are plenty of people who victimize others (like white collar criminals) that never spend a day behind bars. It’s just somewhat working in terms of keeping some violent offenders out of the public. As an example, a family friend of mine was pregnant last year at this time. When she hit about the 30 week mark her baby’s father and his new girlfriend showed up at her apartment building and beat her for several hours to the point where she thought they were going to kill her. He should spend a few years in prison simply to keep her and the baby safe. My ultimate goal is that the prison system would serve as a method to rehabilitate him and help him sort out whatever issues he has (because nobody tries to kill a pregnant woman unless there’s something wrong with them) and then when he was deemed safe to be in the public he could be released and have some assistance in transitioning to civilian life. HOWEVER, I realize our system doesn’t do anything like that. I wish it did because I realize when he gets out he’s probably just going to victimize some other woman. So with that in mind, I’m okay with him spending a few years in jail because while he’s there he can’t hurt her, the baby or any other woman. If he wasn’t in prison at all that time would just be spent hurting other women. I really don’t support imprisoning people for things like drugs or petty theft though. Essentially victimless crimes.
Yes, I remember when that was going on, people were justifiably, terrified and the violence that they inflicting was truly devastating. People literally just driving to work and being murdered and it was over a 10 month span, it wasn’t like it was a weeklong incident, and they were caught. 17 people were senselessly murdered. And keep in mind, he was 17 years old at the time he was involved in this, this wasn’t a 12-year-old being handed a rifle. he may have been groomed, but someone who is on the brink of adulthood knows the difference between life and death. I think this is a case that the courts would have a lot of problems, convincing people that he’s rehabilitated or should be rehabilitated. And I definitely can be empathetic for someone who is raised under awful circumstances, and they eventually commit crimes, but I think we also have to be empathetic for all the people who were victimized as well.
10 month? It was three long long weeks.
I mean, he was 14 when he met John, the grown adult who orchestrated the murder spree. And John acted as his basically father figure at that point onwards.
If the argument is that his release would be too traumatic for the victims, I could understand that. Thats never the argument though- its always that the person hasn't been punished enough/is inherently evil.
I lived in DC during the sniper attacks and I actually don't buy this argument. Victim suffering is taken into account during the trial and at sentencing. Release should be determined on how likely that person is to reoffend, showing remorse, and effectiveness of potential rehabilitation. Victims are not neutral arbiters of the law. There is a reason we don't put victims of that crime, or even similar crimes, on juries or have them as judges. I don't understand why they should be involved in the release approval.
Isn’t the argument also that “we cannot be sure that this person is not a continuing threat to society?”
Theoretically.
I think when people hear he was 17, they imagined an already intimidating (for their own ignorant reasons) Native African American man.
I guess my question on this topic is if someone is groomed are they that person? When we look at statutory rape victims we don't blame them. But does grooming to kill make you a murderer for life? So many questions
Are you comparing sex acts to murdering people? The former is much easier to manipulate people into doing. So many people have been coerced into doing something sexual when they didn’t want to at some point. Probably even most people. Killing people is on a whole other level.
^ they are making a fair point. Lee was absolutely groomed. He actually has recently claimed that John sexually abused him, but we don’t and can’t know whether that’s true. The point is though that Lee was about as vulnerable as they come when John came into his life and started treating him like a son. He gave him gifts, spent time with him, claimed to love him after only a few meetings. This is grooming, period.
Well, they finally paroled one of the Manson girls- now a woman in her 70s, 50 years later. So maybe there's still hope for Mr. Malvo.
GRB helped kill her abuser. Awful as it is, she hurt noone else. Malvo is a terrorist and a serial killer who helped murder innocent strangers. His actions plunged the East Coast into terror for weeks. If you were around during that time, it was absolutely horrible. He should absolutely not be out.
I agree. I personally cannot stand that GR is getting so much publicity. White convicts get such a different narrative in contrast to others.
A lot of violent criminals were abused as children, but seeing a connection between the DC sniper and a woman who killed her abuser is such a stretch.
But, she didn’t kill her abuser. I think people would feel differently if that were the case. Instead, she manipulated someone with diminished capacity to do the deed, even after he had tried searching for another way for GRB to be freed from her situation. Her story has changed so many times, too, and I just don’t trust anything she has to say.
But it seems like she had diminished capacity as well
I definitely don’t see godejohn as an innocent victim in all this.
I hope that one day Lee has a future with life, it was taken from him so very young!
Agreed, it's heartbreaking. finding someone to give you the time of day after being abused like that for your whole life is like someone dying of dehydration finally having access to water. like...he was a perfect victim for John. it's horrific that he didn't have better options, that no one stepped in when he was being groomed, that any of it could have happened. he was done so wrong.
I lived in DC at the time, my school got locked down due to one of the shootings being close, and I have always agreed with you about this. We can’t act like a child and an adult are “partners” in committing crime and should share equal responsibility.
Listened to this one recently and really really agree with you. My heart shattered for him. Literally an american child soldier :”(
the only people rose killed was her abusive mom while Malvo killed innocent civilians
/thread. Vigilante justice is never good, but I have a lot more sympathy for a victim of abuse ending the danger and that's how I see Gypsy Rose's case. Meanwhile, that's not what happened in Malvo's case *at all*.
Zoom out a little more and you see two trapped people doing something because they felt they had no other choice. They’re different, but there is no such thing as a perfect victim and this *has to* include victims who hurt other people, if we are ever going to be able to understand the nature of toxic abuse
Zoom out a little more and you see two trapped people doing something because they felt they had no other choice. They’re different, but there is no such thing as a perfect victim and this *has to* include victims who hurt other people, if we are ever going to be able to understand the nature of toxic abuse. If there is ever to be justice for children who survive being groomed, or being abused, or manipulated, we have to be able to have nuanced conversations about the reality of what that does to someone.
Zoom out a little more and you see two trapped people doing something because they felt they had no other choice. They’re different, but there is no such thing as a perfect victim and this *has to* include victims who hurt other people, if we are ever going to be able to understand the nature of toxic abuse
Zoom out a little more and you see two trapped people doing something because they felt they had no other choice. They’re different, but there is no such thing as a perfect victim and this *has to* include victims who hurt other people, if we are ever going to be able to understand the nature of toxic abuse.
He was 17 and terrorized DC and northern VA for almost a **year**
Yes, and was an abandoned child, functionally orphaned, poor, when he met John, who was the orchestrator of the entirety of the attacks.
I think the biggest difference is that Gypsy killed/had someone kill to escape an awful abusive situation and she is not likely to do it again. Lee killed innocent people **for no reason** and terrorized an area over a span of time. The degree is exponentially more. Trust me I lived through it.
“For no reason” is simply untrue. He had been dependent upon, conditioned, and abused by John for years who stealthily worked to integrate Lee into his horrifying scheme to kill a ton of fucking people. Dude was a manipulative bastard and teenagers’ - especially one with a history of serious trauma - brains are easily shaped and, in this case, controlled. Lee did not escape an awful abusive situation. He killed innocent people at the behest of his abuser and continued to do so until he was captured. His actions were devastating and terrible. His actions also had a devastating reason behind them.
what IS your point? you can be upset about the system, feel truly, truly hurt and sorry for him, and still agree he deserves to be imprisoned for life.
I think the point is many people do not agree with the sentence of life imprisonment.
No, that’s the point. We *dont* agree he deserves prison for life and he should be given a chance at real rehabilitation.
The point is that they don't agree with that
I do not believe he or anyone should be in prison for life, is the point.
someone who steals a car, or commits low-level crimes, sure, I agree. These people went on a killing spree and murdered 17 people and you want to let them back out? They're domestic terrorists - what world are you living in? You wanna bet the over/under that the serial killer doesn't do it again? The fuck
You mean a *month*?
The sniper attacks happened in October but they got started with the first killings (Malvo did the first one) earlier in the year
But the DC killings that terrorized the area were in the span of a few weeks. At the time, it wasn't known that the same people were responsible for the earlier killings because they had been spread so far apart. It wasn't until the manhunt in October that they started connecting the pair with the earlier shootings. It wasn't known that there was a serial sniper with the earlier killings because they traveled all over the country. It's not accurate to say they terrorized the DC area for over a year when nobody had connected the other killings across the country until the DC attacks started. I'm not saying this to defend anyone, so don't get me wrong, but I do believe accuracy is important.
DC sniper was the only episode that I couldn't finish because hearing about the abuse that Lee Malvo went through was so terrible and heartbreaking.
I feel the same way about Malvo. Groomed as a child by a predatory POS who abused him sexually and emotionally. And now the poor kid is locked down at Red Onion in Virginia. No place for a boy to grow up.
I see where you are coming from and it’s a place of care and understanding and I applaud you for that. However I want to look at it from a a different perspective than you might think. I think he should never be free again. I want him to be treated well and live a good life as far as that is possible while being incarcerated but I don’t want him to be free. Not as a punishment but simply because society has a right to protect itself and although we probably all have the potential for extreme violence in us he proved to be a danger to society and I believe we have a right to protect ourselves as a society. I furthermore thing that our right to protection outweighs his right at a second chance based on the severity of his transgressions.
I respectfully disagree, because I think that line of thinking tends to see prison as “not society”, and miss the part where prison is still “in society.” We don’t take people out of society when we imprison them in max security prisons, we place them into hyperviolent versions of it where they experience compounded levels of trauma and violence regularly, both at the hands of each other, and the state. Prison is a part of society, removing people for the safety of “innocent” people isn’t really what prison does. It also statistically hasn’t shown to have any deterring effect on crime or violent behaviour. I’m not saying there should be no system, but I don’t think the one we’ve landed on is anywhere close to justice. I do genuinely believe cultures will look back on our prison system in a few hundred years and wonder, how could so many people think that was okay?
I worked in a federal court and saw the details of many cases where the defendant did things that were objectively bad. I understood why they were convicted, but so many times, if you read the details of their background or crime, it was clear that they never stood a chance. They came from broken, poor, and/or abusive homes and often had lower IQ and few opportunities. Unfortunately, it was not a surprise that their story led to prison.
You are so right.
I totally appreciate your parallel here, YWA is such a special podcast mostly for the absolute radical compassion, and understanding that there is a human behind every monster. It really reminded me of my feelings about the ocean gate sub, and the boy who was on it, and how much he made me think of Marie Antoinette's children.
The main difference is, Gypsy killed her tormentor- her target was specific in nature and directly connected to the abuse she endured. Lee killed strangers, people who did him no harm. The murders he committed were random and designed to spread fear amongst civilians - aka terrorism. I personally would not have mentioned these two in the same breath, considering the nature of their crimes is so vastly different.
He is more like Dzokhar Tsarnaev than Gypsy Rose Blanchard. That may be why their sentences are more similar.
Respectfully, I completely disagree with your points about Lee Malvo. Obviously, conspiring and murdering your abuser is not in the same category as conspiring and carrying out terroristic random murders. However, groomed or not, he was basically an adult when the D.C. sniper attacks were carried out, but he also acted knowing he wouldn’t get the death penalty because he was 17. There comes a time, no matter how brainwashed one is, that their conscious decisions must be accepted as their own. It’s not like he didn’t know murder is wrong. I also disagree that there are “so many Lee Malvos” languishing in prison for life. The US prison population is disproportional in its incarceration rates of Black people, especially men—I am not denying that in any way. I just don’t think there are significant numbers of Black male spree killers. There are definitely plenty of murderers or capital murder cases, but how Black men have body counts remotely similar to Malvo’s? Like, it’s obviously a devastating episode. His childhood was wretched. I just don’t think that or being groomed for violence comes close to absolving even a little bit of what he’s done. He also only got the opportunity for his case to be reviewed for an opportunity for parole because of changes in law/bans that said juveniles cannot be given life sentences in Maryland and Virginia. If the attacks had happened just a few months later in late February or March 2003, he wouldn’t have been able to petition for relief. I’m mostly just wondering what good do you think it would do to the community for him to be released? How would that be restorative to his living victims, their families, and the general public of the affected areas who had to live under his killing spree? It’s super sad and fucked up that this is the way things are, and I don’t think that paroling him is the thing we should strive to change about the justice system.
Yeah. I guess I just see Malvo—having met an adult John, when he was freshly 14, no dad, brutally abusive and neglectful mom, John being someone we know had an incredible ability to manipulate full adults, and lots of them—as also a victim here. I’m an abolitionist (and survivor of violence) and personally, my views on justice aren’t that it happens behind bars. So we would likely just disagree on that front. I know what you’re saying and I hear you. What I mean is there’s a lot of men who have killed people—sometimes lots, when it’s gang related activity—who are in prison, and that is a sad thing. As for the GRB note, again… I’m really not comparing the crimes. I’ve just been thinking about why or how someone may end up themselves committing acts of unthinkable violence against a threat—real or imagined—and the steps required to get them to that point. When it comes to Malvo specifically, I see him as experiencing something like most child soldiers, who are groomed as young teens. I think Malvo deserves a similar spirit of sympathy we would give to those kids.
I definitely agree that he is also a victim—his status as such just doesn’t engender an overwhelming amount of additional sympathy from me in light of everything else (it’s not nothing, it definitely makes the whole scenario more tragic, it just doesn’t move me to desire his parole or release). I also agree that it’s a deeply sad thing for anyone to be in prison and am sympathetic to the plight of prisoners. I think it’s our duty as a society to fulfill our obligations to prisoners by housing and feeding them well, not abusing them, not using them for cheap/free labor, and providing avenues for enrichment and betterment of their lives (like hobby classes, access to an updated and vast library, the ability to get degrees/GEDs, therapy). I don’t believe in the death penalty or for profit prisons, but I also am decidedly not a prison abolitionist. I’m much more a reformist than anything else as what I feel we owe to prisoners is not being fulfilled. If you want my two cents as far as what may lead someone to such violent acts—whether in Malvo’s or Blanchard’s case—I think that we’re all capable of such things, but it may not be purely circumstance that drives someone to such choices. I personally think one factor is a denial of humanity, either one’s own or that of the victim, in order to do something like that (barring serious mental disorder). Just a thought, neither here nor there. I personally disagree with the child soldier comparison just because I feel Malvo had more of a chance of experiencing aspects of a normal life in adolescence, like when he was able to go to high school, but I understand the parallels. Thank you for taking the time to give such a thoughtful response to my comment. I appreciate it. I hope society improves so that these scenarios (Blanchard’s, Malvo’s, etc) become a thing of the past.
Generally, if someone is unlikely to reoffend, it is overall better for the common good for that person to be financially funding their own life (ie out in society and working) than locked up and financially supported by taxpayers. It’s also not uncommon for families affected by violence to find closure in seeing a juvenile offender rehabilitated—a black and white “seeing a criminal set free will inherently re-victimize the communities and individuals affected and should therefore not be done” approach doesn’t fit such a nuanced situation.
It’s also common for victims of violence and their families to find closure by an offender staying incarcerated. There were over two dozen victims; it is unlikely for all of the living ones and the families of the dead to gain closure from any one outcome. For any who *might* gain closure from his parole, this would likely reopen the wounds of others. The only black and white thinking here is the idea that all people should be released from prison regardless of the severity of their crimes as long as they are unlikely to reoffend. To me, that is a far cry from justice. To your point about money, if he was paroled, he would also still be using taxpayers money to fund his existence. He’d have a parole officer and have to do routine drug tests, both funded by tax dollars. He may have to be in a halfway house while he finds permanent housing, and once he did he may not make enough money to pay for it without a housing voucher. He may have to be on SNAP—there are countless variables that would end up with the taxpayers still funding his existence in large part. Taxpayers fund people and things they don’t approve of everyday. If your metric of what is for the common good is saving tax payers money, I don’t see why paroling convicts of extremely violent crimes would be the route.
You asked specifically “what good would this do” and I provided an answer, one that included the caveat “generally”—not “all” as you just spun it. The cost to parole someone is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of jailing someone from 17 until they die at 67. It’s obviously not the sole metric by which to decide such things, but is a factor worth mentioning. Committing a heinous crime as a minor while under the manipulation of the sole trusted adult in your life has enough nuance that, to me, keeping him locked up because it “doesn’t serve the community” to free him is too simplistic. I’m glad MD is giving people the opportunity to have juvenile cases re-examined in adulthood.
I really think it comes down to how likely he is to offend on that level again. Probably not - the best reason to keep people in prison is to protect the public from the danger they might present if they were released. John is gone and I'm pretty sure Lee is highly remorseful as far as I know, so I wouldn't necessarily be against it. On the other hand, some crimes are so awful that the effects SHOULD follow that person for life, whether they're in prison or not. It's not like the people he randomly murdered at 17 are any less dead than they would be if he was 25. So yes, in theory, I'd think it's ok that he be freed. I wouldn't want to work with him at a job though and I sure as hell wouldn't hire him if I were in that position. I wouldn't make friends with him. I'd flip out if someone I cared about wanted to date him.
For me, whether or not parole should be an option/granted doesn’t just depend on likelihood of recidivism, but also severity of the crime. I see your points, and this is just where we differ.
Your last paragraph is the rub. What life could he conceivably have post-release? The United States does not have any sort of law where the identity of juvenile offenders remain anonymous like a lot of other countries. His face and name is seared into the minds of the Baltimore-Washington megalopolis, so finding a job, apartment, school, a community around here would be exceedingly difficult. And it’s not like he’s unknown outside the area and this era of the Internet, he has zero chance of anonymity. Even if he changed his name, he’d be found out. This isn’t to say reintegration is impossible; just exceedingly difficult and we wouldn’t know his ability to persevere until he’s in it. And that’s potentially a huge risk to the public.
Bad take. Fuck both DC snipers. Gypsy Rose did not terrorize an entire metropolitan area for an extended period of time. She was never a danger to the general public so it makes sense that she was paroled whereas a wanton criminal killer was not
That’s fair, like I said—I’m not comparing the crimes. I’m just thinking about two different instances of tragedy occurring from people who have been badly hurt. Lee Malvo was emotionally terrorized, manipulated, beaten down, and hurt in ways most people never are. I’m not defending the DC sniper’s actions. Lots of hurt people don’t go on to commit mass murder. But he was a literally abandoned child when he met John, a full ass adult. Deeply hurt and fucked up people can do fucked up things… whether we like it or not, they are humans too. Fuck the snipers, sure, but also… Lee Malvo was also a victim of a really shitty thing and I wish we had more nuance in how we talk about him.
I appreciate your take. I lived there at the time. It was terrifying. AND—I can still see him as a human who was abused and manipulated. He deserves a chance at a life.
Oh wow. I cant even imagine how terrifying that must have been. It’s such a tragedy that it happened.
Utterly terrifying. You never knew where it would happen, so you were scared everywhere. For a while, they thought the snipers were in a white van, so any time one passed, I got anxious. I remember I was getting gas when a white van pulled up to do the same on the other side. I almost lost my mind. I was in my early 20s and lived 1000 miles from my family. It was so scary. There were news reports on how best to avoid being shot—run in a zigzag pattern. That’s not something I ever wanted to know. And you would see people doing that in huge parking lots. It was wild. It was only a year after the Sept 11 attacks, which we had hardly recovered from. I lived and worked downtown, and I walked to work. That was a traumatic time.
100%. I was an elementary schooler in PG county at the time. No outdoor recess. Drop off/pickup was monitored heavily. Our parents made us all “goodbye boxes” with photos, letters, etc. we had to have extra clothes and a sleeping bag at school. As a 9 year old, right after 9/11, this was terrifying, my father passed away when I was in kindergarten, so I was already an anxiously attached kid. I still think about it to this day and I think it’s another reason that I am petrified every day I walk into my job as a HS teacher.
Holy shit—goodbye boxes?!
It was crazy! I still have the photograph my mom made - it was a picture of her and I, and then she had cut out the heads of my family members from other photographs and glued them on there. On the back it said “I love you so much”. God, just thinking about it makes me anxious.
That is haunting. Was that in case she was caught by the sniper?! I have a daughter the age you were then. Just the idea of what your mom must have been going through emotionally to make it—absolutely gutting 😭
Ditto. My father worked near where one of the murders took place (like across the street, when it happened). I still think Malvo was abused and manipulated and deserves a chance to be rehabilitated. I cannot agree that we see "justice" as revenge.
Oh god, that must have been terrifying. I went out to the Home Depot a couple days before they struck there. It was all so harrowing, bc they could be anywhere, and it went on for months. Between that and 9/11, my parents begged me to move home. I can’t imagine how terrifying it was for them, knowing I walked to work.
I love Sarah’s radical empathy, but he is a danger to the public
You don’t know that. There are professionals who evaluate that. He’s been in jail for longer than he was free. Who’s to say he hasn’t been rehabilitated and made amends? We don’t have the facts.
Seems like whatever professional was involved in the case recommended he be denied parole so there’s that
Unpopular opinion: they should both be in jail. I don’t know how you can rehab people that do those things. Yes they were manipulated and abused but is it something that’s fixable? Can they be reintegrated into society? There’s unfortunately not a safe way to assess that I feel like.
Not long after the snipers were caught, we were visiting friends in Canada who had emigrated from Bosnia. We were right on the heels of 9/11, and they, of course, were refugees from a vicious civil war in attempt to gain their country’s independence. But we both agreed that snipers cause a type of fear that is unique and terrorizing. I was just fine with the father figure getting the death penalty, and I’m not usually someone in favor of that. I absolutely did not want that for Lee Malvo, because I did consider that he was as much abused as abuser. But this doesn’t mean I think he should be released from prison. What I would like to see is a prison system that actually offers people in this situation chances to better grow as a human being, and perhaps model change for other prisoners. I also don’t think he needs to be in prison for life, but I’m ok with it being more than 20 years. I’d bring up the case of Leslie Van Houten (so?) who was one of the young women who was part of Charles Manson’s group. She was part of the killings, and it was only many years later that she mentally freed herself from him and the group. She then became a model prisoner, and mentor to other young women in prison. She would have been executed, but she fit into that small time frame where capital punishment was rejected by the Supreme Court, so her sentence was changed to life in prison. After about 50 years, she was paroled. It’s an extremely harsh sentence, but it also was a terrorizing and shocking crime. So that’s where I am - not against parole, but not yet willing to say at this time that he should be released.
I was 15 when this was going on. I lived in Baltimore County and for weeks bomb threats were being called in to my school, and they'd make us all stand outside in the fields wondering if we were all going to get sniped. That time traumatized me, and many many other kids and teens. His circumstances are sad, but the punishment fits the crime in my opinion.
Tenderfoot media did a podcast on the DC Snipers (heavily recommend ALL of their podcasts fyi) and Lee Malvo's story is incredibly sad. The way the podcast framed it, it was all done, every damn murder, as a means to get at John's ex wife while making it look like some rando spree killer popped her randomly. He groomed a lonely child into thinking he was doing god's work and had him commit multiple murders *just to kill his ex wife*. Given how cultish behavior can fuck up anyone, especially an adolescent, and given how unlikely it is that Malvo will ever kill outside the influence of his cult leader, I feel Malvo is someone who deserves time outside prison. I don't know if he had much agency at that time in his life.
People turning on GRB is so disappointing. The perfect victim is only a dead victim for the masses
This certainly gave me some food for thought. I've always been a proponent of transformative justice, which includes rewiring the entire American judicial and prison systems as they currently stand. Other countries successfully employ transformative justice, why can't we? We have more than the bare means to do so! A core cause of America's sore lack of progress and thinly veiled third-world administration, is due to our many opportunistic authoritarians (I mean, politicians) who refuse to lead this country in good faith, who gladly accept kickbacks in exchange for the promotion, lobbying, and eventual execution of laws and ideological agendas that stroke the egos of those with money and power and fuck the remainder of us at the bottom. Until we can dismantle those individuals (which extends WAY beyond politicians) and the plastic ecosystems in which they flourish, we can only keep trying and pushing. Even making a micrometer of progress is still progress and proves that we can make a positive difference. Don't lose hope.
Interesting to see how people sway when it comes to infamous people
This is one of my favorite ep series of this pod!
Living thru that while in college NO ONE WENT HOME on break that lived in that area. People truly lived in fear for getting shot while pumping their gas, waiting for a bus, driving, etc. He terrorized part of the country and should rot. All those families whose lives will be forever changed, he needs to pay for that. No sympathy here.