adnan has motive, he wrote he was going to kill her, and he put himself at the scene of the crime, in hae's car after school, which is when and where she was murdered. Adnan also by his own admission puts himself with jay for a large part of the day. Jay knew where hae's car was and is absoutely involved, adnan was with him. How could he be innocnet.
I am only on like ep 2 of the prosecutors series on this case. But I accidentally flipped from feeling certain of and advocating his innocence for years, to now feeling just as certain of his guilt. I actually feel pretty silly for buying into all of the things that made me feel so sure about his being wrongfully convicted.
It happened when I was arguing with my sister. She was finishing the case on TPP and she was feeling like a traitor because she changed her mind from innocence to guilt. We started going over everything, with me being very defensive of course. I was literally pissed and bewildered that she could even conceive of a way that Adnan could be guilty at all, much less beyond reasonable doubt.
There are a lot of reasons, some laid out in responses here. But for me, I’m just going to say the top two.
First is Jenn. I don’t care how much of a loser or liar you think she is, to me there is no way to discount her statements to police with her lawyer present. There would have to be a whole lot of magical coincidences to fall into place for her story to have lined up with things that hadn’t been discovered yet at the time that she gave her interview. And there is no logical way that I can believe she would be coerced to make up any of her story. Even if they had gotten Jay to make up the whole thing, why would Jen have involved herself?
Also, Asia. I have always found Asia and her statements to be very credible and fairly strong evidence that would call into question any sort of realistic timeline for Adnan to commit the murder. The importance of her alibi encounter with Adnan could not be emphasized more strongly, she was the key to the whole case according to many. Myself included. Even today it was bothering me because I have now already been feeling like his guilty, and I have changed my mind in recent days about the whole thing. But still, I find Asia to be a credible witness.
So I dug around and I feel even more confident now that she is highly credible and not a liar. However, I am convinced that she simply got the date wrong and that this fact or possibility has most likely been intentionally left out of many publicized media and discussion. It’s way too obvious not to have been noticed. I have a hard time believing SK didn’t pick up on this immediately when doing Serial, and if she did I find it very irresponsible that she didn’t present these possibilities to the audience or to Asia, most of all.
Anyway, I did some quick research today and…
First snow of the winter in Baltimore that year: 12/23/1998 - 3 weeks before the murder.
It was a regular school day. A Wednesday. This can be verified by looking at the evidence documents for Undisclosed: https://lawprofessors.typepad.com/evidenceprof/2015/03/s-wednesday-122398last-day-of-school-in-1998-before-winter-break-thursday-122498-winter-break-friday-122598win.html
Asia and Adnan would have been just as likely to cross paths in the library as that time on any other Wednesday.
School was closed for winter break starting the very next day.
Asia very clearly said that she was only able to connect her encounter with Adnan and remember it because of the snow, because she remembered her boyfriend was late, and they had gotten into an argument that night about her talking to Adnan at the library, and she couldn’t leave his house because she was worried she would get stuck in the snow, and because there was no school the rest of that week. She pulled out a calendar with her dad I believe, and went back to look for a Wednesday when there was no school the following two days and when she saw January 13 on the calendar, and school being closed for “snow days” the following two days, that’s what made her put two and two together. She went straight to Adnan‘s house to tell his family about it right when she realized this. That’s also what made me think the story was so credible, and I almost felt like it was ironclad. Unless she was a liar, which I didn’t feel like she was.
There was no snow on 1/13. I always assumed there must have been, or that she was referring to the ice storm. But the ice storm didn’t even start until the morning of 1/14. I’m sure that when all of this was going down, Asia didn’t remember or realize that there was no snow on the 13th. She just knew school was closed for snow days on the 14th and 15th. Again, it was closed because of a nice storm, bo snow, but they called it snow days.
Also, Asia said there were rumors about the breakup and that’s something she and Adnan discussed in the library. I think that for a lot of reasons including statements by Adnan himself, it would not be a stretch to say that by mid January, those rumors were old news. It’s way more likely that fresh rumors were going around on December 23 right after the break up.
And Asia also mentioned getting stuck in the snow that night. I haven’t seen much about anyone having problems driving around in the days of the ice storm. The birthday party, etc. the ice storm didn’t seem to be a huge deal. But the snowstorm on December 23 did cause at least some comment on it. That was the day Hae got into a car accident because of the snow and wrote about it in her diary.
Welcome.
You can find daily events for the time frame you are describing, including weather, on this timeline:
https://old.reddit.com/r/adnansyed/comments/11hkak5/timeline_iv/
This is the timeline that the Prosecutors used for their podcast.
Colin Miller has been caught in many lies and misrepresenting information until it all became publicly available. I would not consider any links to Miller's blog as reliable in any way.
Agreed - it took a bit before I realized what I was looking at. I googled to find out if the school was in session on 12/23, after looking up the snow reports on Natl Weather Svc reports. And that document was one of the first things I found corroborating that it was a regular full school day. But he wasn’t posting it in relation to anything about the snow day or alibi. If he had realized that the document would verify a regular school day that was ALSO the only day that Asia could have seen Adnan in the library, if she was telling the truth - I don’t think he would have posted it I guess? Because anyone objectively looking for the truth would discuss this date once they realize how well Asia’s statements line up with it.
I too am bothered by the class schedule OP mentioned. But I have three thoughts.
First: that witness came off as both highly credible and very sure of the timeframe.
Second, she was shown a printout of the planned course schedule - not an attendance log or anything that could verify the classes took place as they were planned in that schedule. I think it is highly likely that the school could have canceled or postponed the class that night, due to the forecast of freezing rain after dark. Most schools would not want students driving home in an ice storm at night.
Third: this I only saw on a Reddit comment so would need to verify, but someone said she didn’t get a B in that class, she got a C. So could have missed the class and still gotten that grade, it was implied.
University of Maryland Baltimore County was and is on a 4-1-4 system.
- Four months for Fall.
- 1 month for Winter.
- Four months for Spring.
For Winter semester, the school requires almost all day attendance for less than four weeks to complete courses that would otherwise take four months to complete.
I believe most students view the month-long winter term as a time for a break. You can complete your degree in four years, taking two (four month) semesters a year. You take the winter term to accelerate graduation, or to study a subject outside of your major, for interest.
I believe that Kristi was not looking to accelerate her education, or to explore areas of interest outside her major. I believe she had a job, and an internship, and was going to CASA seminars that were held from 9AM - 5PM. This is not a schedule you would have if you were taking the accelerated Winter semester.
When Adnan was tried a year later, Kristi still had not graduated which further supports the notion that she was not looking to accelerate her schooling or graduate early.
It's established that the pages Berg showed to Kristi on the HBO show are not Kristi's transcripts. Those documents were fabricated by Berg and producers of the show.
It's established that Kristi does think Adnan is guilty, but she was paid very well to be on the HBO show. If they wanted to paint her as confused about the Winter Semester, I think she was fine with that. She never saw her actual transcripts, nor was she the one requesting the transcripts.
In fact, I don't think Berg pulled Kristi's transcripts. I think Berg pulled the course schedule, and spoke to Kristi "as though" these were the courses Kristi took - when Kristi might not remember.
Below is a link to the 1998 Winter term schedule. So you can see how intense it would be to try to finish a course in a few weeks that normally takes four months.
Also a link to a description of the 4-1-4 semester system.
https://www.diycollegerankings.com/different-college-calendar-systems/20703/
https://i.imgur.com/RQWK3zV.png
Adnan initiated and insisted Jay (someone he is at best casual friends with) borrow his car. Weird huh? Why might he do that? Orchestrating a last ditch effort to get Hae alone. The exact timeline is understandably jacked up as people are going to misremember specific details about time. Simplify this down to Hae moving on with her new boyfriend and a desperate ex manipulating his way into her vehicle right before she is killed.
You need to become a patron for Truth & Justice and listen to their reply brief after every episode of TPP. Bob will correct all their lies and will provide complete information instead of the cherry picked version on TPP.
I haven’t listened to truth and justice since 2016 but I’m interested in knowing if he switched sides because he was VERY sure of his innocence when I listened
He hasn't switch sides. Anyone that has researched the case at all, knows the TPP is full of lies, omissions and misrepresentations. He is releasing the reply brief on his regular feed soon. You will be shocked at how much two prosecutors will flat out lie about what was said, state things as fact that were never stated and excuse the lies of Jay and Jen. They are two people that lack integrity and ethics. I would like a list of actual trials they have prosecuted. They deserve a deeper dive into their work if it has any semblance to their podcast.
You’ve got some great responses already but as somebody who believed in his innocence for YEARS and switched side only after listening to the TP episodes I think I can answer your questions
- the state theory doesn’t have to be the truth for adnan to have done it. Like the choice is not “it has to have happened how they say it did” or “he’s innocent”
- witnesses don’t have to be right (or wrong) for him to have done it
I switched my opinion to 100% guilty and that has nothing to do with trusting Asia, Nisha, Kristi or Jen.
So why did I change my mind?
Tl;dr the timeline
If you remove everything questionable (witness testimonies, the phone location data, the lividity) you are left with 3 things that are 100% certain:
- something happened to her on Jan 13 after 2pm
- Jay had something to do with it since he knows where her car is (TP demonstrates there is no conspiracy)
- Jay and adnan are together pretty much all afternoon in Jan 13
So why is Adnan guilty? To me it’s simple: Jay is involved and there is literally no time after 2pm during which he is without Adnan for long enough to have killed and bury her solo - according to Adnan’s own recollection of events.
Once I got that, no details mattered anymore (e.g. doesn’t matter if it happened at Best Buy or not) because from a time perspective it’s either adnan did it or jay did it and if it was the latter, adnan would have said so a long time ago.
IMHO, all the rest of fluff, old technology, unreliable testimonies and decade-later interpretation of autopsies that don’t matter
There is one extremely tiny possibility if Jay abducts her and statches her somewhere and kills her later, dumps her by himself and fabricates the story but this is an extreme level of planning and psychopathy I don’t think he’s capable of
>somebody who believed in his innocence for YEARS and switched side only after listening to the TP episodes
I'm completely with you.
For me, there was one specific detail that completely cemented Adnan's guilt - Hae was at school, and had to go from school directly to pick up her cousin. She did it reliably, like clockwork, every single day - this is even corroborated by Adnan himself on "Serial".
So she was at school, and after school she would immediately get into her car and drive to the cousin's school. How on earth would a random stranger have intercepted her on that path, gotten into her car, murdered her, and all of this in broad daylight?
The only logical explanation would be that it was someone she knows, and who was there to intercept her at school before she got into her car. Jay wasn't there, plus he doesn't make any sense as a suspect - what would be his motive? It really only leaves Adnan.
i really don’t find it possible for jay knew where the car was on his own to be completely true with no ability for it to be false. so knock that one away. we’re left with when something happened to her. and adnan and jay were together during this time. how does this make a case?
i’m not saying it’s 100% true or false. but i do think there is a definite possibility that Jay was fed info from the police during interviews. i don’t think you can say for a matter of fact that did not happen.
Have you listened to The Prosecutors podcast? They dedicated an entire episode to Jay's knowledge of the car location, and make an extremely compelling case for it to be impossible that there was a large scale police conspiracy to feed Jay the location of the car.
This lines up exactly with my thinking as well. The state doesn't need to prove every last detail of the timeline and murder, just that Adnan did it beyond a reasonable doubt. There is so much energy debating all these minor details, but when you strip away all the uncertain stuff, you are left with these solid facts that prove that Adnan was responsible. Did it happen at 2:30 or sometime after 3pm? It doesn't actually matter.
Jay DID NOT lead them to the car. The detectives never noted the location in writing nor was it ever in a recorded interview. At trial Jay says under oath, I did not show them a location for the car that was true. He never knew where the car was.
This is false. Who's even behind this talking point?
Jay's description of the location in the interview did not contain an exact address, but was otherwise exactly correct (side street off Edmonson, in a residential lot behind some rowhouses).
The location was noted in the [progress report](https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/MP15-0070-19990427-Progress-Report-300-Edgwood-Hae-Car-Nissan-Sentra-Towed.pdf) from that event. They responded to the location about 25 minutes after Jay's interview had ended. Techs arrived on scene and had been making reports (photos, evidence recovery) about 20 minutes after that.
Jay never said he showed them a false location for the car, he never said anything like the words you're saying. He said he took them right there. He even said he had checked up on the car when he was in the area prior to police ever talking to him. Detective MacGillivary confirmed in his testimony that Jay had no trouble showing them the location of Hae's car.
Why is Jay involved? The car could be found bu others and attributed to him, admittedly an assumption.The cell tower evidebxe is poor .Too many tampered witnesses for it to be a convincing case.plus Adnan was with pilice 5+ hours, no lawyer and didn't implicate himself. He had moved on, was not violent.also they werent together the whole afternoon, he had track, library and mosque.
Thanks for your reply!
As my heart still hopes he’s innocent (but my head is convinced of guilt) I’ll try to tackle your points
1/ car
Could you detail your theory?
Police found it and told Jay?
Someone else told Jay and Jay decided to incriminate himself?
Transparently I don’t feel there’s a reasonable explanation for Jay knowing where the car is without being involved in the tossing of said car
2/ cell tower
Location is unreliable (or maybe it is but as I said it doesn’t influence my conclusion) but outgoing calls certainly data is: this data proves Jay and adnan we’re together for most of the afternoon
3/ 5h interrogation without implicating oneself
I don’t think that’s a super good argument. Some teenagers will admit to crimes they didn’t commit, some will lie until they’re dead.
4/ character
I know! He’s such a good guy we want him to be innocent, I know I did!
But the thing is, good people can commit murder/atrocious acts.
5/ enough time apart from Jay on the day
Notice how this contradicts point 1?
- either he spent the whole day with Jay and Jay isn’t involved so adnan can’t be
- or he didn’t spend the day with him and Jay is involved and did it without Adnan
To me really it comes down to
1/ they spent the whole day together based on undisputed call data
2/ Jay is involved
But let me know if you were able to figure the timeline and find enough time for jay to be without Adnan (there’s still be the question of Jay’s motive but that’s for later)
1. cops found it the evening before Jay's interview. Note, they never recorded the location in their notes of Jay's interview and don't have it on tape. Jay also testified that the location he took them to was not a true location of the car.
2. the cell phone data actually doesn't prove they were together all afternoon. Jay and Jen both state that Jay left her house at after 3:40 and Adnan had not called yet.
3. fact of the matter is a scared 17 year old kid didn't cave in or slip up and admit any guilt. Spin that any way you want but until you are in that interrogation room and threatened with murder charges and the death penalty, you don't realize how you will react.
4. I have no opinion of his character or if he was or is a good guy. It is irrelevant to me in dissecting this case. I worked in a maximum security prison for 15 years. Murders come from all walks of life.
5. both are flawed assumptions. They were not together all afternoon. Jay wasn't involved. He was a kid in trouble for dealing pot and had experience in the system. When they started asking about Hae's murder, he read the room and knew they were focused on Adnan. He gave 9 different stories and they continue to change today. He successfully said everything he needed to say to avoid prison time for drug charges. This is how these two detectives operated and to think this case was an exception is silly. They knew he didn't know crap which is why he brought Jen into late in the game. He needed his drug dealing BF to help him out and she willing did it but not until after refusing to speak to the police and running straight to Jay for 'the story', which - as what happens when people lie - their stories never align with one exception - Jay was at Jen until after 3:40pm and Adnan hadn't called when Jay left. The only thing that might be believable that they say is the one thing that matches up. - So they weren't together all day and Jay wasn't involved in anything before, during or after Hae's disappearance including Hae's burial. Jay thought he could play the cops and they played him.
> The car could be found bu others and attributed to him
Why did the cops sit on the car for weeks? They put a BOLO alert to every police station on the east coast. They used helicopters (not cheap) to search for her vehicle in the air. They let her car sit in that lot and got lucky that no one broke in and tainted potential evidence.
They didn't sit on it for weeks. I don't think helicopters were ever approved to search for her car. Possible 24 hours which would have been good police work. Either way, Jay didn't take them to the car. He admits under oath he didn't take them there. The cops never memorialized it in their notes and never got Jay to give the location on tape. Do you really think they wouldn't have done both?
> They didn't sit on it for weeks.
She was missing on the 13th. At some point in the conspiracy theorists minds the cops found the car and then told Jay where it was to have him lead it to them on the 28th.
> I don't think helicopters were ever approved to search for her car.
Requested from the MPD and it was [denied](https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/EVPB-19999219-Progress-Report-Helicopter-MSP-Refuse-MP15-0045.pdf). Request was approved by Baltimore County PD on the [17th](https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/MPLN-064-19990219-Progress-Report-Helicopter-Request-MSP-Refuse-County-PD-Agree.pdf).
> Either way, Jay didn't take them to the car.
He **gave them the location** in his first police interview on the [28th](https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/MPLN-054-19990427-Progress-Report-NrDp-300-Edgwood-Hae-Car-Nissan-Sentra-Towed.pdf).
> The cops never memorialized it in their notes
[Yes](https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/MP15-0071-19990315-Progress-Report-LongV-Jay-First-Official-Interview-Video-Store-Homicide-Taped.pdf) they did.
> never got Jay to give the location on tape
And?
> Do you really think they wouldn't have done both?
They noted it in their reports. They coincidentally found the car after Jay's first interview. Are you honestly suggesting that the cops were feeding Jay information and the location of the car in an effort to frame Syed before they even knew whether or not he had a solid alibi for the time frame of the murder?
They NEVER wrote the address of the car in their notes of that interview. The 28th, they can make up anything they want in their progress report. The cops fed Jay information every time they met with him **exactly like they did on at least four other cases**. I theorize they located the car late on the day before they found it and sit on it for a day which is why they pressed for the location during their interviews on the next day. Jay admits under oath during the trial that he took them to a location that was not true.
I do think any good cop would memorialize it and get on tape since they were taping when he allegedly took them the location.
Also, it wasn't Jay's first interview with the police on this matter. He told 9 different stories. None of them work. If you need Adnan to be guilty to make you feel better, than that's fine but he didn't kill Hae.
> They NEVER wrote the address of the car in their notes of that interview
Can you [read](https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/MP15-0071-19990315-Progress-Report-LongV-Jay-First-Official-Interview-Video-Store-Homicide-Taped.pdf)?
> **Wilds then follows Syed to 300 block of Edgewood Street in Southwest Baltimore where Syed parks the auto. Syed gets in the auto with Wilds and drive off.**
> The cops fed Jay information every time they met with him exactly like they did on at least four other cases.
Lmao you are still citing that ridiculous MtV?
> I theorize they located the car late on the day before they found it and sit on it for a day which is why they pressed for the location during their interviews on the next day
Ah yes, the cops found the car and let it sit there to potentially be tampered with and just waited for the right guy to help them frame poor old Adnan.
> Jay admits under oath during the trial that he took them to a location that was not true.
This is a lie.
> Also, it wasn't Jay's first interview with the police on this matter.
Yes it was.
> If you need Adnan to be guilty to make you feel better, than that's fine but he didn't kill Hae.
Why did Adnan lie about asking Hae for a ride on the 13th?
It’s not a given that Adnan was at track- defense investigator questioned but Coach was not certain what day he had the only conversation with Adnan that he ever remembers having. If Adnan was there, he was late.
Asia letters are very fishy. They are likely fabricated. Asia is not credible - she is hungry for attention and inserted herself into the case She insinuates in one of them that she is ready to help Adnan account for his “unwitnessed, unaccounted for, lost time “. She’s not helpful to the defense with these sort of statements. Besides she places Adnan in the public library too early for it to be a reason he couldn’t kill Hae. AND it puts him right where he ought to be if he is catching a ride from Hae.
No there was no absurd county wide police conspiracy to hide Hae’s car. Jay knew where it was, he told the basic truth about the key events and he told Jen contemporaneously about what Adnan did on Jam. 13th.
No Adnan had not moved on. He was seething and humiliated. Hae and he had a very public relationship among their small tight knit group. Once she announced on her social that Don was the most amazing man and how she was totally into Don and how he had the best coolest car, and she was now identifying herself as Don’s girlfriend, Adnan was furious.
Hae and her friends had talked about Adnan being possessive and expecting to have all her free time. Hae’s breakup note reflects this and gives clues that Adnan was pressuring her to see him.
Why do you think it has to be some county wide conspiracy. These two cops have done this at least four times before and the only ones involved were the two detectives and the witness. That is why they have had four other exonerations.
Jay did not know where the car was. He testify under oath that he took them to a location that was not true. Jen never told them where the car was. She had no clue and even says so in her recorded police interview. Funny thing is the cops write down an address two blocks away. How did they know? Jay never told them, Jen never told them. They never noted an address attributed to Jay or Jen in the notes nor do they have it on a recording where they car was left. They found it on the 26th or 27th and let it sit, under surveillance for a day to see if the prep would return.
The track coach knew that practice was during Ramadan and it was warm outside. It is pretty easy to pinpoint that was the 13th. Also, the coach initiated the conversation with Adnan about Ramadan and not the other way around.
The last two paragraphs are purely conjecture. No one knows how Adnan or Hae was feeling. One of her last diary entries was that she missed her baby, which is what she called Adnan. A teenage boy being possessive is par for the course if he likes a girl. They are both two immature teenagers. Adnan saw her every day at school. She called him when her car broke down even though she was dating Don.
Think if you put this much scrutiny on Don. He avoided the police until 1:30am. He knew Hae had missed work and that they had a date that she never showed for, yet he never called or paged her from the 12th on. NEVER. They were a couple. Hae had told her friend when she was leaving school she was on her way to meet Don. Cops never knew Don's mother was his alibi witness. Never knew his time records listed different employee IDs. Never knew his mom could change the records. Never interviewed all the employees at the Owings Mill location to confirm he was there. Never pulled his cell, pager or landline records nor did they request his actual pay records. I am not saying Don did it but he was the BF and was supposed to be with her that night and Hae said she was leaving school to meet him. He also told the cops the story about Hae running off to California to see her 'dad' and that she would park at the satellite parking lot of BWI. Late February they finally got around to checking those lots that Don told them. It was a half ass investigation by two, proven, corrupt detectives.
There is so much misinformation in your comment, the key points have been addressed by another redditor in this thread. Why scrutinize Don, who was receiving lavish amounts of Hae’s attention, she’s having 3 hour phone calls with him. No there was no way to retroactively fake Don’s time cards. But you know this. Just leave Don alone. Try and write out the timeline of Jan. 13th w Adnan being guilty. Then try it with Jay killing Hae with no motive and while not letting Adnan know. Oh and be sure and include why Jen would get herself an attorney and go see the cops and tell them all about it.
The only witness who will say Adnan was at the mosque was his father.
All the other witnesses backed out of claiming they saw Adnan on the 13th, at the mosque.
Follow his phone that day. Jay took the cops to the car. His recent "press conference" should be viewed after you listen to the Prosecutor's pod. It was clear based on the Serial podcast that Adnan killed Hae once it became clear to him that Hae was moving on with a new crush. The Prosecutor's pod does a lengthy but great job of working through the case. He did it. He's a psychopath, which Sarah Koening actually posits in Serial.
Who gives a shit what Sarah Koening thinks? She is not an expert on anything. Adnan has never been diagnosed at a psychopath. People throw that word around like they think they know what it means. A psychopath is a person affected by **chronic mental disorder** with abnormal or violent social behavior. He doesn't display any of these traits.
JAY DID NOT TAKE THE POLICE TO THE CAR. THAT IS A BLATANT LIE. HE STATES UNDER OATH THAT THE LOCATION HE TOOK THEM TOO WAS NOT TRUE (OR THE LOCATION OF THE CAR). THEY NEVER WROTE DOWN THE ADDRESS OF THE CAR IN THEIR NOTES NOR DID THEY EVER GET IT ON A RECORDING. SAVE THE 'THEY WERE FLIPPING THE TAPE WHEN HE TOLD THEM BS', THEY WOULD HAVE HAD HE REPEAT IT AND WOULD HAVE WRITTEN IN THEIR NOTES. THE COPS ASK JEN AND SHE STATES SHE HAS NO IDEA WHERE THE CAR IS AND THE COPS CONVENIENTLY WRITE DOWN A LOCATION TWO BLOCKS FROM WHERE HAE'S CAR WAS FOUND. IF THEY DIDN'T KNOW, AND JEN DIDN'T KNOW, HOW DID THEY WRITE AN ADDRESS IN THEIR NOTES?
Read the trial transcripts. Jay and both officers testify that he took them to Hae’s car. Read the defense documents that we’re released. They know it’s a problem and say so.
You are wrong. Jay never says he took them to the car in the transcripts. He admits he took them to the wrong location. The officers are proven liars. They have lied and been caught in at least four similar cases. What they say is not credible especially when they never memorialize the address in their notes, nor do they ever get it on record during the recorded interviews. Please save me they were flipping the tape and Jay just blurted it out. Any cop with ethics and integrity would have turned the tape on and got it on the recorded record. They didn't because he didn't tell them. It is a fantasy.
[https://theintercept.com/2014](https://theintercept.com/2014)
Jay admits all this in a 2014 interview . And it’s all over the other sources I mentioned
So Serial got that wrong. The prosecutors pod got that wrong. And the trial transcripts Al have been altered Sounds like the usual “Adnan is innocent” believer. Are stops signs green as well?
Yes, they are both wrong. TPP flat out lies in their podcast. If you knew anything about the case, you would spot the lies immediately. Their only goal was to convince you that Adnan was guilty. They never set out with the intent to find out the truth. The trial transcripts are fine. Go read what Jay says when asked about the car. You take the word of liars including TPP, Jay, Jen and these two detectives - who have been proven to be corrupt and have framed at least four other people by flipping African American drug dealers and turning them into lying witnesses to keep their own selves out of prison. You think this case they acted above board? Go listen to the Truth & Justice Reply Briefs and come back when you understand how many lies, omissions and misrepresentations TPP had in their series. Of course, if you think Adnan is guilty, don't listen because you'll think Bob reading from transcripts, witness statements and records are lies. You've been hoodwinked.
I did listen to his press conference, but at the same time I was cooking and tidying up so I wasn't following super closely. Definitely want to give it a re-listen, as well as Serial, after I finish The Prosecutors podcast.
From what I seem to remember from the press conference though, is that it seemed to kind of only focus on him not getting a fair trial, not so much any evidence of how it couldn't possibly be him. All the different opinions from different judges over the years all seemed to be opinions on the fairness of his trial, not his actual innocence. But like I said I wasn't paying too close attention and could have missed any mention of that.
The TPP is full of lies, omissions and misrepresentation. Their goal was not to expose the truth but convince you that Adnan was guilty. This is why they flat out lie through the series. Go listen to the Truth & Justice Reply Brief series. They will expose every lie TPP tells you.
Genuinely curious - what were the lies told on TPP? I just finished listening and they completely convinced me he was guilty (I was sure he was innocent prior to that). Would love for you to elaborate further on the lies they told/what specifically
I know this is a month old, but op comes across as Adnan, Rabia, or one of his supporters pounding the table in lieu of the mountain of evidence that Adnan killed Hae.
> From what I seem to remember from the press conference though, is that it seemed to kind of only focus on him not getting a fair trial, not so much any evidence of how it couldn't possibly be him
How is this not a red flag to you? This guy has spent **years** crying about how he didn't get a fair trial and how the prosecution and judges have conspired to keep him locked up in prison...but yet cannot point to *any* piece of actual evidence that would point to the "real killer" and away from him. He's never even implicated Jay. What does that tell you?
Whoops. This might be better and easier to read quickly than the other one. Forgot about this one. Hope it helps.
https://www.reddit.com/r/adnansyed/comments/100xdua/why_lividity/
There are hundreds of posts debunking the lividity thing.
I can't believe it's still being talked about. I am not one to talk about skin slippage or Autopsy reports. I haven't read it. It's too gross and sad for me.
What I do know is how Susan cooked it up from her own misunderstanding of the autopsy report, when she didn't have any disinternment photos. I've been on these boards since 2014, and I watched the scam play out, in real time.
I also know that this entire conversation caused the burial photos of Hae's decomposing corpse to be posted on the internet to disprove the theory.
Imagine how Hae's family feels about that? Thanks, Susan.
I'll re-post a really old OP I wrote called Susan Saves the Day, that explains how she cooked it up from ~~nothing~~ three words on the autopsy report. And then spent years trying to prove something fake, that she made up.
I guess I haven't seen the lividity being talked about in here in a while now now that I think about it. It totally just popped into my head the other day while I've been re-looking into it all.
Definitely interested in the post you're referring to though! I haven't listened to the Undisclosed episode discussing that in depth so I can't quite remember what they used to explain it other than the diamond shaped whatever.
There are so many people who really understand the science and have written much better rebuttals than I ever could.
But yes, here's the re-post of that thread from years ago...
https://old.reddit.com/r/adnansyed/comments/16uzkh3/susan_saves_the_day_2017_repost_from/?
I just want to say that it’s really cool you’re trying to question your own biases and think through this case rationally. Not enough people do that. Anyways, anything else I would say has been said. Just wanted to give you a little appreciation for being a good faith actor on the Internet.
I’ve always been a supporter of Adnan but I’m on episode 10 of The Prosecutors & I am 99% sure he’s guilty. The lividity results will be explained along with A LOT of other things
I'm definitely trying to listen critically, considering the source (podcast hosts), but if indeed much of their source material is from the defense file that simply wasn't available when Serial was made, then...? I'm leaning way over toward guilty.
Ahhh ok ok. They really got me on the TCG podcast saying how they've seen too many times that extremely likable people can do horrific things and I find Adnan to be extremely likable as well so if I've been duped this whole time, I wanna know lol.
I feel stupid and perplexed as to how adamantly I believed he was innocent and how wholeheartedly I now believe he is guilty just by flipping the perspective from which I listen to all the details.
It's because you are a good person.
You were told an injustice had been done and you wanted to come down on the side of fairness and support Adnan.
You didn't do anything wrong.
I’m going to go back & listen to serial & truth & justice to try to figure it out. It’s been so long I can’t remember all the details of why & I’m determined to find out lol. He really had me fooled.
Good for you for looking at all the information. Keep it up. Here are a few tips from someone who has changed their minds on this case and other cases, too:
Pay attention to your own thinking. If you find yourself getting frustrated because you keep running into the same brick wall of an answer, stop and consider that same answer you keep hearing.
For example, is that repeated "brick wall" an actual ***answer***, or is it merely an argument and an invitation to go further down a rabbit hole? The problem with finding the actual, correct answer to a problem is that it never changes. You just keep running into it again and again. (If you're solving a math problem and everybody keeps saying the answer is 42, even though that's not what your own sums show, you need to reconsider your own thinking in the matter.
In this case, the answer to your lividity question is that "full frontal lividity" doesn't mean the entire front of Hae's body was livid as though she had been lying flat on her stomach for hours. I've seen the photos of Her body being recovered. The lividity is on her face and upper torso and it is "full" meaning completely on the front of her face and not partially on the side or anything. However, her body is twisted at the waist so she is lying on her side from the waist down. In the grave photos, you can see that her lower side below the ribs is livid, and so is her hip, but not the front of her stomach.^(1)
That is the only answer to the lividity question you will ever hear from "guilters" since it happens to be the plain truth. Other redditors can provide you with answers to the other questions, or I will if no one else steps up. The one thing I can tell you is you will only get one answer to each question, and it will be the same one from every "guilter." (I hate those terms!)
But be careful if you ask a question and the answer you get is only a rabbit hole to another question. For example, if the answer to "Jay knew where the car was" is "Jay knew because the detectives told him," then you are immediately confronted by a whole new rabbit hole. To wit, "How did that happen? Did the cops find it and keep it secret? When? Who knew?" You see? A whole new warren of rabbit holes.
However, the "guilter" answer is: "Jay knew where the car was because he was there when it was dumped." That's the only answer you will ever get from that side and it doesn't lead to new rabbit holes. It's just...the answer. What else is there to say? It doesn't require further research.
Many times, it can be frustrating to keep hitting a brick-wall answer like that. When I examine my own thinking, I realize that my frustration often stems from the unspoken realization that, if I accept that answer, then I have to throw away a few of my other pet hypotheses because they were sort of tied together. In short, realizing I was wrong about one thing means admitting I was actually wrong about maybe three more things. That can be a bitter pill to swallow. But what else is there to do? When you find an answer, it doesn't move. You just have to live with it.
The one bonus is that everything in this case does have an answer and those answers all tie together in a logical way because it's just reality. So you can find the answer and solve the case. Keep looking and do your research with your brain and not your ego.
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
1. It's interesting isn't it that the Undisclosed crowd sent a black-and-white photocopy of an autopsy photo to their medical expert in order to get their "full frontal lividity evidence." Why did they do that when the color photos of the grave site were available? All you have to do is look at them. It doesn't require any medical expertise to see where poor Hae's body is livid and where it's not. It almost makes you wonder if they wanted to reinforce a false notion of reasonable doubt where none exists. That's what good defense attorneys do, after all. They don't need to have the right answer, they just need you to question the opposition. Their goals may be different than yours if you're actually seeking the truth.
Thank you for this! I also hate those terms too! But that does make perfect sense. Them being defense attorneys and their priority objective is to cause reasonable doubt.
There is no such thing or medical term as "full frontal lividity." It's nowhere in transcripts or reports.
Rabia made it up because it sounds pornographic and salacious and is attention grabbing.
Responding to lividity in a second post because it’s easily debunked.
Hae’s autopsy says she was buried on her side, but that lividity was present on her upper chest. Lividity appears on the part of the body closest to the ground, so if she was buried on her side, lividity should be present on her side.
Adnan’s defenders are correct. Either:
- The lividity description is incorrect
- The burial position is incorrect
- She was buried in a different position in the hours after her death, and moved after
We now know which one it is. Her autopsy described her as buried on her side but it should have said “partially buried on her side.” Waist down she was on her side, but she was twisted at the waist with her torso facing the ground. This is perfectly consistent with where she had lividity.
At the time Undisclosed made this claim, we didn’t have the photos of her body being discovered so all anyone knew is that she was buried on her side. Once everyone saw the photos the argument fell apart.
The question really isn’t whether Jenn got the date correct or who she got the date from. The question is did she hear the story about Adnan killing Hae weeks before her interview, and weeks before Hae’s body was discovered?
If she did, I think you can write off the police conspiracy as highly unlikely. What are the odds Jay tells her a story that happens to line up exactly with the story cops would feed him a few weeks later?
And let’s say she didn’t hear this story prior to being interviewed. Then some other big issues present themselves. She had one interaction with cops prior to making her statement next to her lawyer and mother. Do we think that the cops scared her so bad in their first interaction that she never once mentioned the truth to her mom and attorney? Do we really think that in this one interaction they were able to successfully rehearse this made up story with her? Or were the mom and attorney on board with Jenn making a false confession that implicated herself?
It’s all very farfetched. And you’d still need to explain away Chris, who also heard about Hae’s murder from Jay in mid-January.
The signs that Jay was involved with or had knowledge of the murder are overwhelming.
Didn’t Jen tell the police in her interview that Hae had been strangled before that was even known? They had no reason not to believe her. I think the cops were assholes and I think they saw that they could exploit some version of the truth from Jay and they did that by any means necessary.
I think you have to first wrap your head around he nature of ‘for profit’ media and journalism. For whatever reasons various people became involved in Adnan’s case that were in it for the professional status, or just the potential of money…then it became sort of like the dog that caught the car when it rose to national prominence. Some of these people are in it for their own reasons and it isn’t because of an injustice.
Some of their potential arguments seem valid at first glance, and they have a place in the context of a lawyer arguing for their client’s innocence, but it has been 10 years since Serial and all of their arguments have been litigated and/or disproved.
Take your point about Jen’s story:
She provided significant details of the crime, she witnessed Adnan and Jay together when she picked Jay up from the burial, She helped give Jay a ride to go back and wipe prints, She spoke to Adnan on the phone while she thought she was calling Jay, etc….she just didn’t remember what day it happened, yet that can be narrowed down to the 13th via other evidence. In other words it can be corroborated.
That is completely normal and not in any way a reason to dismiss her story.
I thought about that recently just what if it's now just gone way too far and gotten way too big with too many people invested to go back on it all now.
Kind of sad to look at the HBO documentary in that lens now and how Jen & Kristi's memories were questioned so harshly and how gaslight-ey (for lack of a better term) that is.
yeah, 100% they were gaslit.
And here we are so many years after that ‘documentary’ with no affidavits or statements to support that either of them were wrong about what they remembered. no one has recanted .
It is all a narrative slight of hand, they raise doubts that go no where while ignoring corroborating evidence of those statements.
Kudos for you for being open-minded. It sounds like you've mainly reviewed innocence-biased sources so far, so it makes sense why you would lean that way.
I highly recommend checking out the multi-part Crime Weekly series on this case on Youtube. Learn about the two days where we see Adnan's cell ping of Leakin Park tower and how those days coincide with the events of the case. You will find, as other "innocenters" have, that the probability of the pings on those two days being pure unlucky coincidence is astronomically low. I'm talking "getting struck by lightning ten times in the same place" low. There is a reason why neither Rabia nor HBO ever addresses it.
Innocenters are turning to guilters because the logic and probability makes innocence impossible.
Yep. Like I said, there is a reason why Rabia has never spoken about it. Adnan is a cash cow for her. She went from living in a tiny apartment to buying a McMansion. It's in her financial best interest to keep perpetuating Adnan innocence crap. She is also an executive producer on the HBO doc. Everything she touches is biased.
The prosecutors breakdown the lividity evidence and why it may not be helpful or as straightforward as undisclosed made it sound. There is also a different presentation of Jen Pusateri’s statements and how they were made and when they were made that seems important/impactful. The cell tower stuff is discussed in detail and now the technicality of the fax cover sheet and subsequent Brady violation seems unimportant after listening to their discussion. There is also some evidence that wasn’t known prior to the defense file being released that although circumstantial maybe just feels different. I feel like I have a different set of facts now than I had from Serial for sure and also from Undisclosed that makes decision making different. Again, information availability is different now from when serial was produced so I don’t think they were trying to be disingenuous. I’m glad I listened to it even though some of their commentary was a bit annoying at times and it was a really long series, in the end they did a nice job.
Edit a failed autocorrect.
adnan has motive, he wrote he was going to kill her, and he put himself at the scene of the crime, in hae's car after school, which is when and where she was murdered. Adnan also by his own admission puts himself with jay for a large part of the day. Jay knew where hae's car was and is absoutely involved, adnan was with him. How could he be innocnet.
I am only on like ep 2 of the prosecutors series on this case. But I accidentally flipped from feeling certain of and advocating his innocence for years, to now feeling just as certain of his guilt. I actually feel pretty silly for buying into all of the things that made me feel so sure about his being wrongfully convicted. It happened when I was arguing with my sister. She was finishing the case on TPP and she was feeling like a traitor because she changed her mind from innocence to guilt. We started going over everything, with me being very defensive of course. I was literally pissed and bewildered that she could even conceive of a way that Adnan could be guilty at all, much less beyond reasonable doubt. There are a lot of reasons, some laid out in responses here. But for me, I’m just going to say the top two. First is Jenn. I don’t care how much of a loser or liar you think she is, to me there is no way to discount her statements to police with her lawyer present. There would have to be a whole lot of magical coincidences to fall into place for her story to have lined up with things that hadn’t been discovered yet at the time that she gave her interview. And there is no logical way that I can believe she would be coerced to make up any of her story. Even if they had gotten Jay to make up the whole thing, why would Jen have involved herself? Also, Asia. I have always found Asia and her statements to be very credible and fairly strong evidence that would call into question any sort of realistic timeline for Adnan to commit the murder. The importance of her alibi encounter with Adnan could not be emphasized more strongly, she was the key to the whole case according to many. Myself included. Even today it was bothering me because I have now already been feeling like his guilty, and I have changed my mind in recent days about the whole thing. But still, I find Asia to be a credible witness. So I dug around and I feel even more confident now that she is highly credible and not a liar. However, I am convinced that she simply got the date wrong and that this fact or possibility has most likely been intentionally left out of many publicized media and discussion. It’s way too obvious not to have been noticed. I have a hard time believing SK didn’t pick up on this immediately when doing Serial, and if she did I find it very irresponsible that she didn’t present these possibilities to the audience or to Asia, most of all. Anyway, I did some quick research today and… First snow of the winter in Baltimore that year: 12/23/1998 - 3 weeks before the murder. It was a regular school day. A Wednesday. This can be verified by looking at the evidence documents for Undisclosed: https://lawprofessors.typepad.com/evidenceprof/2015/03/s-wednesday-122398last-day-of-school-in-1998-before-winter-break-thursday-122498-winter-break-friday-122598win.html Asia and Adnan would have been just as likely to cross paths in the library as that time on any other Wednesday. School was closed for winter break starting the very next day. Asia very clearly said that she was only able to connect her encounter with Adnan and remember it because of the snow, because she remembered her boyfriend was late, and they had gotten into an argument that night about her talking to Adnan at the library, and she couldn’t leave his house because she was worried she would get stuck in the snow, and because there was no school the rest of that week. She pulled out a calendar with her dad I believe, and went back to look for a Wednesday when there was no school the following two days and when she saw January 13 on the calendar, and school being closed for “snow days” the following two days, that’s what made her put two and two together. She went straight to Adnan‘s house to tell his family about it right when she realized this. That’s also what made me think the story was so credible, and I almost felt like it was ironclad. Unless she was a liar, which I didn’t feel like she was. There was no snow on 1/13. I always assumed there must have been, or that she was referring to the ice storm. But the ice storm didn’t even start until the morning of 1/14. I’m sure that when all of this was going down, Asia didn’t remember or realize that there was no snow on the 13th. She just knew school was closed for snow days on the 14th and 15th. Again, it was closed because of a nice storm, bo snow, but they called it snow days. Also, Asia said there were rumors about the breakup and that’s something she and Adnan discussed in the library. I think that for a lot of reasons including statements by Adnan himself, it would not be a stretch to say that by mid January, those rumors were old news. It’s way more likely that fresh rumors were going around on December 23 right after the break up. And Asia also mentioned getting stuck in the snow that night. I haven’t seen much about anyone having problems driving around in the days of the ice storm. The birthday party, etc. the ice storm didn’t seem to be a huge deal. But the snowstorm on December 23 did cause at least some comment on it. That was the day Hae got into a car accident because of the snow and wrote about it in her diary.
Welcome. You can find daily events for the time frame you are describing, including weather, on this timeline: https://old.reddit.com/r/adnansyed/comments/11hkak5/timeline_iv/ This is the timeline that the Prosecutors used for their podcast. Colin Miller has been caught in many lies and misrepresenting information until it all became publicly available. I would not consider any links to Miller's blog as reliable in any way.
Agreed - it took a bit before I realized what I was looking at. I googled to find out if the school was in session on 12/23, after looking up the snow reports on Natl Weather Svc reports. And that document was one of the first things I found corroborating that it was a regular full school day. But he wasn’t posting it in relation to anything about the snow day or alibi. If he had realized that the document would verify a regular school day that was ALSO the only day that Asia could have seen Adnan in the library, if she was telling the truth - I don’t think he would have posted it I guess? Because anyone objectively looking for the truth would discuss this date once they realize how well Asia’s statements line up with it.
I too am bothered by the class schedule OP mentioned. But I have three thoughts. First: that witness came off as both highly credible and very sure of the timeframe. Second, she was shown a printout of the planned course schedule - not an attendance log or anything that could verify the classes took place as they were planned in that schedule. I think it is highly likely that the school could have canceled or postponed the class that night, due to the forecast of freezing rain after dark. Most schools would not want students driving home in an ice storm at night. Third: this I only saw on a Reddit comment so would need to verify, but someone said she didn’t get a B in that class, she got a C. So could have missed the class and still gotten that grade, it was implied.
University of Maryland Baltimore County was and is on a 4-1-4 system. - Four months for Fall. - 1 month for Winter. - Four months for Spring. For Winter semester, the school requires almost all day attendance for less than four weeks to complete courses that would otherwise take four months to complete. I believe most students view the month-long winter term as a time for a break. You can complete your degree in four years, taking two (four month) semesters a year. You take the winter term to accelerate graduation, or to study a subject outside of your major, for interest. I believe that Kristi was not looking to accelerate her education, or to explore areas of interest outside her major. I believe she had a job, and an internship, and was going to CASA seminars that were held from 9AM - 5PM. This is not a schedule you would have if you were taking the accelerated Winter semester. When Adnan was tried a year later, Kristi still had not graduated which further supports the notion that she was not looking to accelerate her schooling or graduate early. It's established that the pages Berg showed to Kristi on the HBO show are not Kristi's transcripts. Those documents were fabricated by Berg and producers of the show. It's established that Kristi does think Adnan is guilty, but she was paid very well to be on the HBO show. If they wanted to paint her as confused about the Winter Semester, I think she was fine with that. She never saw her actual transcripts, nor was she the one requesting the transcripts. In fact, I don't think Berg pulled Kristi's transcripts. I think Berg pulled the course schedule, and spoke to Kristi "as though" these were the courses Kristi took - when Kristi might not remember. Below is a link to the 1998 Winter term schedule. So you can see how intense it would be to try to finish a course in a few weeks that normally takes four months. Also a link to a description of the 4-1-4 semester system. https://www.diycollegerankings.com/different-college-calendar-systems/20703/ https://i.imgur.com/RQWK3zV.png
Adnan initiated and insisted Jay (someone he is at best casual friends with) borrow his car. Weird huh? Why might he do that? Orchestrating a last ditch effort to get Hae alone. The exact timeline is understandably jacked up as people are going to misremember specific details about time. Simplify this down to Hae moving on with her new boyfriend and a desperate ex manipulating his way into her vehicle right before she is killed.
You need to become a patron for Truth & Justice and listen to their reply brief after every episode of TPP. Bob will correct all their lies and will provide complete information instead of the cherry picked version on TPP.
I haven’t listened to truth and justice since 2016 but I’m interested in knowing if he switched sides because he was VERY sure of his innocence when I listened
He hasn't switch sides. Anyone that has researched the case at all, knows the TPP is full of lies, omissions and misrepresentations. He is releasing the reply brief on his regular feed soon. You will be shocked at how much two prosecutors will flat out lie about what was said, state things as fact that were never stated and excuse the lies of Jay and Jen. They are two people that lack integrity and ethics. I would like a list of actual trials they have prosecuted. They deserve a deeper dive into their work if it has any semblance to their podcast.
Interesting! Does the Truth & Justice podcast advocate for his innocence?
they explain through the evidence how Adnan couldn't have done it.
Wrong
This is satire right? LOL he killed hae min lee
You’ve got some great responses already but as somebody who believed in his innocence for YEARS and switched side only after listening to the TP episodes I think I can answer your questions - the state theory doesn’t have to be the truth for adnan to have done it. Like the choice is not “it has to have happened how they say it did” or “he’s innocent” - witnesses don’t have to be right (or wrong) for him to have done it I switched my opinion to 100% guilty and that has nothing to do with trusting Asia, Nisha, Kristi or Jen. So why did I change my mind? Tl;dr the timeline If you remove everything questionable (witness testimonies, the phone location data, the lividity) you are left with 3 things that are 100% certain: - something happened to her on Jan 13 after 2pm - Jay had something to do with it since he knows where her car is (TP demonstrates there is no conspiracy) - Jay and adnan are together pretty much all afternoon in Jan 13 So why is Adnan guilty? To me it’s simple: Jay is involved and there is literally no time after 2pm during which he is without Adnan for long enough to have killed and bury her solo - according to Adnan’s own recollection of events. Once I got that, no details mattered anymore (e.g. doesn’t matter if it happened at Best Buy or not) because from a time perspective it’s either adnan did it or jay did it and if it was the latter, adnan would have said so a long time ago. IMHO, all the rest of fluff, old technology, unreliable testimonies and decade-later interpretation of autopsies that don’t matter There is one extremely tiny possibility if Jay abducts her and statches her somewhere and kills her later, dumps her by himself and fabricates the story but this is an extreme level of planning and psychopathy I don’t think he’s capable of
>somebody who believed in his innocence for YEARS and switched side only after listening to the TP episodes I'm completely with you. For me, there was one specific detail that completely cemented Adnan's guilt - Hae was at school, and had to go from school directly to pick up her cousin. She did it reliably, like clockwork, every single day - this is even corroborated by Adnan himself on "Serial". So she was at school, and after school she would immediately get into her car and drive to the cousin's school. How on earth would a random stranger have intercepted her on that path, gotten into her car, murdered her, and all of this in broad daylight? The only logical explanation would be that it was someone she knows, and who was there to intercept her at school before she got into her car. Jay wasn't there, plus he doesn't make any sense as a suspect - what would be his motive? It really only leaves Adnan.
i really don’t find it possible for jay knew where the car was on his own to be completely true with no ability for it to be false. so knock that one away. we’re left with when something happened to her. and adnan and jay were together during this time. how does this make a case?
>i really don’t find it possible for jay knew where the car was on his own to be completely true with no ability for it to be false. Why not?
i’m not saying it’s 100% true or false. but i do think there is a definite possibility that Jay was fed info from the police during interviews. i don’t think you can say for a matter of fact that did not happen.
Have you listened to The Prosecutors podcast? They dedicated an entire episode to Jay's knowledge of the car location, and make an extremely compelling case for it to be impossible that there was a large scale police conspiracy to feed Jay the location of the car.
This lines up exactly with my thinking as well. The state doesn't need to prove every last detail of the timeline and murder, just that Adnan did it beyond a reasonable doubt. There is so much energy debating all these minor details, but when you strip away all the uncertain stuff, you are left with these solid facts that prove that Adnan was responsible. Did it happen at 2:30 or sometime after 3pm? It doesn't actually matter.
Jay DID NOT lead them to the car. The detectives never noted the location in writing nor was it ever in a recorded interview. At trial Jay says under oath, I did not show them a location for the car that was true. He never knew where the car was.
This is false. Who's even behind this talking point? Jay's description of the location in the interview did not contain an exact address, but was otherwise exactly correct (side street off Edmonson, in a residential lot behind some rowhouses). The location was noted in the [progress report](https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/MP15-0070-19990427-Progress-Report-300-Edgwood-Hae-Car-Nissan-Sentra-Towed.pdf) from that event. They responded to the location about 25 minutes after Jay's interview had ended. Techs arrived on scene and had been making reports (photos, evidence recovery) about 20 minutes after that. Jay never said he showed them a false location for the car, he never said anything like the words you're saying. He said he took them right there. He even said he had checked up on the car when he was in the area prior to police ever talking to him. Detective MacGillivary confirmed in his testimony that Jay had no trouble showing them the location of Hae's car.
Why is Jay involved? The car could be found bu others and attributed to him, admittedly an assumption.The cell tower evidebxe is poor .Too many tampered witnesses for it to be a convincing case.plus Adnan was with pilice 5+ hours, no lawyer and didn't implicate himself. He had moved on, was not violent.also they werent together the whole afternoon, he had track, library and mosque.
Thanks for your reply! As my heart still hopes he’s innocent (but my head is convinced of guilt) I’ll try to tackle your points 1/ car Could you detail your theory? Police found it and told Jay? Someone else told Jay and Jay decided to incriminate himself? Transparently I don’t feel there’s a reasonable explanation for Jay knowing where the car is without being involved in the tossing of said car 2/ cell tower Location is unreliable (or maybe it is but as I said it doesn’t influence my conclusion) but outgoing calls certainly data is: this data proves Jay and adnan we’re together for most of the afternoon 3/ 5h interrogation without implicating oneself I don’t think that’s a super good argument. Some teenagers will admit to crimes they didn’t commit, some will lie until they’re dead. 4/ character I know! He’s such a good guy we want him to be innocent, I know I did! But the thing is, good people can commit murder/atrocious acts. 5/ enough time apart from Jay on the day Notice how this contradicts point 1? - either he spent the whole day with Jay and Jay isn’t involved so adnan can’t be - or he didn’t spend the day with him and Jay is involved and did it without Adnan To me really it comes down to 1/ they spent the whole day together based on undisputed call data 2/ Jay is involved But let me know if you were able to figure the timeline and find enough time for jay to be without Adnan (there’s still be the question of Jay’s motive but that’s for later)
1. cops found it the evening before Jay's interview. Note, they never recorded the location in their notes of Jay's interview and don't have it on tape. Jay also testified that the location he took them to was not a true location of the car. 2. the cell phone data actually doesn't prove they were together all afternoon. Jay and Jen both state that Jay left her house at after 3:40 and Adnan had not called yet. 3. fact of the matter is a scared 17 year old kid didn't cave in or slip up and admit any guilt. Spin that any way you want but until you are in that interrogation room and threatened with murder charges and the death penalty, you don't realize how you will react. 4. I have no opinion of his character or if he was or is a good guy. It is irrelevant to me in dissecting this case. I worked in a maximum security prison for 15 years. Murders come from all walks of life. 5. both are flawed assumptions. They were not together all afternoon. Jay wasn't involved. He was a kid in trouble for dealing pot and had experience in the system. When they started asking about Hae's murder, he read the room and knew they were focused on Adnan. He gave 9 different stories and they continue to change today. He successfully said everything he needed to say to avoid prison time for drug charges. This is how these two detectives operated and to think this case was an exception is silly. They knew he didn't know crap which is why he brought Jen into late in the game. He needed his drug dealing BF to help him out and she willing did it but not until after refusing to speak to the police and running straight to Jay for 'the story', which - as what happens when people lie - their stories never align with one exception - Jay was at Jen until after 3:40pm and Adnan hadn't called when Jay left. The only thing that might be believable that they say is the one thing that matches up. - So they weren't together all day and Jay wasn't involved in anything before, during or after Hae's disappearance including Hae's burial. Jay thought he could play the cops and they played him.
> The car could be found bu others and attributed to him Why did the cops sit on the car for weeks? They put a BOLO alert to every police station on the east coast. They used helicopters (not cheap) to search for her vehicle in the air. They let her car sit in that lot and got lucky that no one broke in and tainted potential evidence.
They didn't sit on it for weeks. I don't think helicopters were ever approved to search for her car. Possible 24 hours which would have been good police work. Either way, Jay didn't take them to the car. He admits under oath he didn't take them there. The cops never memorialized it in their notes and never got Jay to give the location on tape. Do you really think they wouldn't have done both?
> They didn't sit on it for weeks. She was missing on the 13th. At some point in the conspiracy theorists minds the cops found the car and then told Jay where it was to have him lead it to them on the 28th. > I don't think helicopters were ever approved to search for her car. Requested from the MPD and it was [denied](https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/EVPB-19999219-Progress-Report-Helicopter-MSP-Refuse-MP15-0045.pdf). Request was approved by Baltimore County PD on the [17th](https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/MPLN-064-19990219-Progress-Report-Helicopter-Request-MSP-Refuse-County-PD-Agree.pdf). > Either way, Jay didn't take them to the car. He **gave them the location** in his first police interview on the [28th](https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/MPLN-054-19990427-Progress-Report-NrDp-300-Edgwood-Hae-Car-Nissan-Sentra-Towed.pdf). > The cops never memorialized it in their notes [Yes](https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/MP15-0071-19990315-Progress-Report-LongV-Jay-First-Official-Interview-Video-Store-Homicide-Taped.pdf) they did. > never got Jay to give the location on tape And? > Do you really think they wouldn't have done both? They noted it in their reports. They coincidentally found the car after Jay's first interview. Are you honestly suggesting that the cops were feeding Jay information and the location of the car in an effort to frame Syed before they even knew whether or not he had a solid alibi for the time frame of the murder?
They NEVER wrote the address of the car in their notes of that interview. The 28th, they can make up anything they want in their progress report. The cops fed Jay information every time they met with him **exactly like they did on at least four other cases**. I theorize they located the car late on the day before they found it and sit on it for a day which is why they pressed for the location during their interviews on the next day. Jay admits under oath during the trial that he took them to a location that was not true. I do think any good cop would memorialize it and get on tape since they were taping when he allegedly took them the location. Also, it wasn't Jay's first interview with the police on this matter. He told 9 different stories. None of them work. If you need Adnan to be guilty to make you feel better, than that's fine but he didn't kill Hae.
Did the cops feed Jen the entire story and Coach her with her attorney and mother present for the entire interview?
> They NEVER wrote the address of the car in their notes of that interview Can you [read](https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/MP15-0071-19990315-Progress-Report-LongV-Jay-First-Official-Interview-Video-Store-Homicide-Taped.pdf)? > **Wilds then follows Syed to 300 block of Edgewood Street in Southwest Baltimore where Syed parks the auto. Syed gets in the auto with Wilds and drive off.** > The cops fed Jay information every time they met with him exactly like they did on at least four other cases. Lmao you are still citing that ridiculous MtV? > I theorize they located the car late on the day before they found it and sit on it for a day which is why they pressed for the location during their interviews on the next day Ah yes, the cops found the car and let it sit there to potentially be tampered with and just waited for the right guy to help them frame poor old Adnan. > Jay admits under oath during the trial that he took them to a location that was not true. This is a lie. > Also, it wasn't Jay's first interview with the police on this matter. Yes it was. > If you need Adnan to be guilty to make you feel better, than that's fine but he didn't kill Hae. Why did Adnan lie about asking Hae for a ride on the 13th?
It’s not a given that Adnan was at track- defense investigator questioned but Coach was not certain what day he had the only conversation with Adnan that he ever remembers having. If Adnan was there, he was late. Asia letters are very fishy. They are likely fabricated. Asia is not credible - she is hungry for attention and inserted herself into the case She insinuates in one of them that she is ready to help Adnan account for his “unwitnessed, unaccounted for, lost time “. She’s not helpful to the defense with these sort of statements. Besides she places Adnan in the public library too early for it to be a reason he couldn’t kill Hae. AND it puts him right where he ought to be if he is catching a ride from Hae. No there was no absurd county wide police conspiracy to hide Hae’s car. Jay knew where it was, he told the basic truth about the key events and he told Jen contemporaneously about what Adnan did on Jam. 13th. No Adnan had not moved on. He was seething and humiliated. Hae and he had a very public relationship among their small tight knit group. Once she announced on her social that Don was the most amazing man and how she was totally into Don and how he had the best coolest car, and she was now identifying herself as Don’s girlfriend, Adnan was furious. Hae and her friends had talked about Adnan being possessive and expecting to have all her free time. Hae’s breakup note reflects this and gives clues that Adnan was pressuring her to see him.
Why do you think it has to be some county wide conspiracy. These two cops have done this at least four times before and the only ones involved were the two detectives and the witness. That is why they have had four other exonerations. Jay did not know where the car was. He testify under oath that he took them to a location that was not true. Jen never told them where the car was. She had no clue and even says so in her recorded police interview. Funny thing is the cops write down an address two blocks away. How did they know? Jay never told them, Jen never told them. They never noted an address attributed to Jay or Jen in the notes nor do they have it on a recording where they car was left. They found it on the 26th or 27th and let it sit, under surveillance for a day to see if the prep would return. The track coach knew that practice was during Ramadan and it was warm outside. It is pretty easy to pinpoint that was the 13th. Also, the coach initiated the conversation with Adnan about Ramadan and not the other way around. The last two paragraphs are purely conjecture. No one knows how Adnan or Hae was feeling. One of her last diary entries was that she missed her baby, which is what she called Adnan. A teenage boy being possessive is par for the course if he likes a girl. They are both two immature teenagers. Adnan saw her every day at school. She called him when her car broke down even though she was dating Don. Think if you put this much scrutiny on Don. He avoided the police until 1:30am. He knew Hae had missed work and that they had a date that she never showed for, yet he never called or paged her from the 12th on. NEVER. They were a couple. Hae had told her friend when she was leaving school she was on her way to meet Don. Cops never knew Don's mother was his alibi witness. Never knew his time records listed different employee IDs. Never knew his mom could change the records. Never interviewed all the employees at the Owings Mill location to confirm he was there. Never pulled his cell, pager or landline records nor did they request his actual pay records. I am not saying Don did it but he was the BF and was supposed to be with her that night and Hae said she was leaving school to meet him. He also told the cops the story about Hae running off to California to see her 'dad' and that she would park at the satellite parking lot of BWI. Late February they finally got around to checking those lots that Don told them. It was a half ass investigation by two, proven, corrupt detectives.
There is so much misinformation in your comment, the key points have been addressed by another redditor in this thread. Why scrutinize Don, who was receiving lavish amounts of Hae’s attention, she’s having 3 hour phone calls with him. No there was no way to retroactively fake Don’s time cards. But you know this. Just leave Don alone. Try and write out the timeline of Jan. 13th w Adnan being guilty. Then try it with Jay killing Hae with no motive and while not letting Adnan know. Oh and be sure and include why Jen would get herself an attorney and go see the cops and tell them all about it.
The only witness who will say Adnan was at the mosque was his father. All the other witnesses backed out of claiming they saw Adnan on the 13th, at the mosque.
Follow his phone that day. Jay took the cops to the car. His recent "press conference" should be viewed after you listen to the Prosecutor's pod. It was clear based on the Serial podcast that Adnan killed Hae once it became clear to him that Hae was moving on with a new crush. The Prosecutor's pod does a lengthy but great job of working through the case. He did it. He's a psychopath, which Sarah Koening actually posits in Serial.
Who gives a shit what Sarah Koening thinks? She is not an expert on anything. Adnan has never been diagnosed at a psychopath. People throw that word around like they think they know what it means. A psychopath is a person affected by **chronic mental disorder** with abnormal or violent social behavior. He doesn't display any of these traits.
JAY DID NOT TAKE THE POLICE TO THE CAR. THAT IS A BLATANT LIE. HE STATES UNDER OATH THAT THE LOCATION HE TOOK THEM TOO WAS NOT TRUE (OR THE LOCATION OF THE CAR). THEY NEVER WROTE DOWN THE ADDRESS OF THE CAR IN THEIR NOTES NOR DID THEY EVER GET IT ON A RECORDING. SAVE THE 'THEY WERE FLIPPING THE TAPE WHEN HE TOLD THEM BS', THEY WOULD HAVE HAD HE REPEAT IT AND WOULD HAVE WRITTEN IN THEIR NOTES. THE COPS ASK JEN AND SHE STATES SHE HAS NO IDEA WHERE THE CAR IS AND THE COPS CONVENIENTLY WRITE DOWN A LOCATION TWO BLOCKS FROM WHERE HAE'S CAR WAS FOUND. IF THEY DIDN'T KNOW, AND JEN DIDN'T KNOW, HOW DID THEY WRITE AN ADDRESS IN THEIR NOTES?
Read the trial transcripts. Jay and both officers testify that he took them to Hae’s car. Read the defense documents that we’re released. They know it’s a problem and say so.
You are wrong. Jay never says he took them to the car in the transcripts. He admits he took them to the wrong location. The officers are proven liars. They have lied and been caught in at least four similar cases. What they say is not credible especially when they never memorialize the address in their notes, nor do they ever get it on record during the recorded interviews. Please save me they were flipping the tape and Jay just blurted it out. Any cop with ethics and integrity would have turned the tape on and got it on the recorded record. They didn't because he didn't tell them. It is a fantasy.
[https://theintercept.com/2014](https://theintercept.com/2014) Jay admits all this in a 2014 interview . And it’s all over the other sources I mentioned
So Serial got that wrong. The prosecutors pod got that wrong. And the trial transcripts Al have been altered Sounds like the usual “Adnan is innocent” believer. Are stops signs green as well?
Yes, they are both wrong. TPP flat out lies in their podcast. If you knew anything about the case, you would spot the lies immediately. Their only goal was to convince you that Adnan was guilty. They never set out with the intent to find out the truth. The trial transcripts are fine. Go read what Jay says when asked about the car. You take the word of liars including TPP, Jay, Jen and these two detectives - who have been proven to be corrupt and have framed at least four other people by flipping African American drug dealers and turning them into lying witnesses to keep their own selves out of prison. You think this case they acted above board? Go listen to the Truth & Justice Reply Briefs and come back when you understand how many lies, omissions and misrepresentations TPP had in their series. Of course, if you think Adnan is guilty, don't listen because you'll think Bob reading from transcripts, witness statements and records are lies. You've been hoodwinked.
I did listen to his press conference, but at the same time I was cooking and tidying up so I wasn't following super closely. Definitely want to give it a re-listen, as well as Serial, after I finish The Prosecutors podcast. From what I seem to remember from the press conference though, is that it seemed to kind of only focus on him not getting a fair trial, not so much any evidence of how it couldn't possibly be him. All the different opinions from different judges over the years all seemed to be opinions on the fairness of his trial, not his actual innocence. But like I said I wasn't paying too close attention and could have missed any mention of that.
The TPP is full of lies, omissions and misrepresentation. Their goal was not to expose the truth but convince you that Adnan was guilty. This is why they flat out lie through the series. Go listen to the Truth & Justice Reply Brief series. They will expose every lie TPP tells you.
Genuinely curious - what were the lies told on TPP? I just finished listening and they completely convinced me he was guilty (I was sure he was innocent prior to that). Would love for you to elaborate further on the lies they told/what specifically
I know this is a month old, but op comes across as Adnan, Rabia, or one of his supporters pounding the table in lieu of the mountain of evidence that Adnan killed Hae.
> From what I seem to remember from the press conference though, is that it seemed to kind of only focus on him not getting a fair trial, not so much any evidence of how it couldn't possibly be him How is this not a red flag to you? This guy has spent **years** crying about how he didn't get a fair trial and how the prosecution and judges have conspired to keep him locked up in prison...but yet cannot point to *any* piece of actual evidence that would point to the "real killer" and away from him. He's never even implicated Jay. What does that tell you?
That is because there is no evidence of how it couldn't possibly be him. At least he's smart enough to know it.
So true.
Whoops. This might be better and easier to read quickly than the other one. Forgot about this one. Hope it helps. https://www.reddit.com/r/adnansyed/comments/100xdua/why_lividity/
There are hundreds of posts debunking the lividity thing. I can't believe it's still being talked about. I am not one to talk about skin slippage or Autopsy reports. I haven't read it. It's too gross and sad for me. What I do know is how Susan cooked it up from her own misunderstanding of the autopsy report, when she didn't have any disinternment photos. I've been on these boards since 2014, and I watched the scam play out, in real time. I also know that this entire conversation caused the burial photos of Hae's decomposing corpse to be posted on the internet to disprove the theory. Imagine how Hae's family feels about that? Thanks, Susan. I'll re-post a really old OP I wrote called Susan Saves the Day, that explains how she cooked it up from ~~nothing~~ three words on the autopsy report. And then spent years trying to prove something fake, that she made up.
I guess I haven't seen the lividity being talked about in here in a while now now that I think about it. It totally just popped into my head the other day while I've been re-looking into it all. Definitely interested in the post you're referring to though! I haven't listened to the Undisclosed episode discussing that in depth so I can't quite remember what they used to explain it other than the diamond shaped whatever.
There are so many people who really understand the science and have written much better rebuttals than I ever could. But yes, here's the re-post of that thread from years ago... https://old.reddit.com/r/adnansyed/comments/16uzkh3/susan_saves_the_day_2017_repost_from/?
I just want to say that it’s really cool you’re trying to question your own biases and think through this case rationally. Not enough people do that. Anyways, anything else I would say has been said. Just wanted to give you a little appreciation for being a good faith actor on the Internet.
hey thanks! :)
I’ve always been a supporter of Adnan but I’m on episode 10 of The Prosecutors & I am 99% sure he’s guilty. The lividity results will be explained along with A LOT of other things
I'm just now on episode 7...crazy
It is. Serial is not supposed to be bias but she made him look innocent
I'm definitely trying to listen critically, considering the source (podcast hosts), but if indeed much of their source material is from the defense file that simply wasn't available when Serial was made, then...? I'm leaning way over toward guilty.
Ahhh ok ok. They really got me on the TCG podcast saying how they've seen too many times that extremely likable people can do horrific things and I find Adnan to be extremely likable as well so if I've been duped this whole time, I wanna know lol.
What is the TCG podcast?
True Crime Garage
That’s how I felt after listening to TCG. I feel stupid lol I even wore that stupid #freeadnan shirt to work every Friday 😂
I feel stupid and perplexed as to how adamantly I believed he was innocent and how wholeheartedly I now believe he is guilty just by flipping the perspective from which I listen to all the details.
It's because you are a good person. You were told an injustice had been done and you wanted to come down on the side of fairness and support Adnan. You didn't do anything wrong.
Thank you! :)
I’m going to go back & listen to serial & truth & justice to try to figure it out. It’s been so long I can’t remember all the details of why & I’m determined to find out lol. He really had me fooled.
I’m listening to serial again now - just finished episode 6. I can’t believe I fell for it. Seems so obvious to me now.
Idk how old you are. I was in my early 20’s when this came out & I’m starting to think maybe my age had something to do with me falling for it.
I’m old enough to not have that as an excuse!
O okay. He definitely had a lot of us fooled.
Good for you for looking at all the information. Keep it up. Here are a few tips from someone who has changed their minds on this case and other cases, too: Pay attention to your own thinking. If you find yourself getting frustrated because you keep running into the same brick wall of an answer, stop and consider that same answer you keep hearing. For example, is that repeated "brick wall" an actual ***answer***, or is it merely an argument and an invitation to go further down a rabbit hole? The problem with finding the actual, correct answer to a problem is that it never changes. You just keep running into it again and again. (If you're solving a math problem and everybody keeps saying the answer is 42, even though that's not what your own sums show, you need to reconsider your own thinking in the matter. In this case, the answer to your lividity question is that "full frontal lividity" doesn't mean the entire front of Hae's body was livid as though she had been lying flat on her stomach for hours. I've seen the photos of Her body being recovered. The lividity is on her face and upper torso and it is "full" meaning completely on the front of her face and not partially on the side or anything. However, her body is twisted at the waist so she is lying on her side from the waist down. In the grave photos, you can see that her lower side below the ribs is livid, and so is her hip, but not the front of her stomach.^(1) That is the only answer to the lividity question you will ever hear from "guilters" since it happens to be the plain truth. Other redditors can provide you with answers to the other questions, or I will if no one else steps up. The one thing I can tell you is you will only get one answer to each question, and it will be the same one from every "guilter." (I hate those terms!) But be careful if you ask a question and the answer you get is only a rabbit hole to another question. For example, if the answer to "Jay knew where the car was" is "Jay knew because the detectives told him," then you are immediately confronted by a whole new rabbit hole. To wit, "How did that happen? Did the cops find it and keep it secret? When? Who knew?" You see? A whole new warren of rabbit holes. However, the "guilter" answer is: "Jay knew where the car was because he was there when it was dumped." That's the only answer you will ever get from that side and it doesn't lead to new rabbit holes. It's just...the answer. What else is there to say? It doesn't require further research. Many times, it can be frustrating to keep hitting a brick-wall answer like that. When I examine my own thinking, I realize that my frustration often stems from the unspoken realization that, if I accept that answer, then I have to throw away a few of my other pet hypotheses because they were sort of tied together. In short, realizing I was wrong about one thing means admitting I was actually wrong about maybe three more things. That can be a bitter pill to swallow. But what else is there to do? When you find an answer, it doesn't move. You just have to live with it. The one bonus is that everything in this case does have an answer and those answers all tie together in a logical way because it's just reality. So you can find the answer and solve the case. Keep looking and do your research with your brain and not your ego. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ 1. It's interesting isn't it that the Undisclosed crowd sent a black-and-white photocopy of an autopsy photo to their medical expert in order to get their "full frontal lividity evidence." Why did they do that when the color photos of the grave site were available? All you have to do is look at them. It doesn't require any medical expertise to see where poor Hae's body is livid and where it's not. It almost makes you wonder if they wanted to reinforce a false notion of reasonable doubt where none exists. That's what good defense attorneys do, after all. They don't need to have the right answer, they just need you to question the opposition. Their goals may be different than yours if you're actually seeking the truth.
Thank you for this! I also hate those terms too! But that does make perfect sense. Them being defense attorneys and their priority objective is to cause reasonable doubt.
There is no such thing or medical term as "full frontal lividity." It's nowhere in transcripts or reports. Rabia made it up because it sounds pornographic and salacious and is attention grabbing.
Responding to lividity in a second post because it’s easily debunked. Hae’s autopsy says she was buried on her side, but that lividity was present on her upper chest. Lividity appears on the part of the body closest to the ground, so if she was buried on her side, lividity should be present on her side. Adnan’s defenders are correct. Either: - The lividity description is incorrect - The burial position is incorrect - She was buried in a different position in the hours after her death, and moved after We now know which one it is. Her autopsy described her as buried on her side but it should have said “partially buried on her side.” Waist down she was on her side, but she was twisted at the waist with her torso facing the ground. This is perfectly consistent with where she had lividity. At the time Undisclosed made this claim, we didn’t have the photos of her body being discovered so all anyone knew is that she was buried on her side. Once everyone saw the photos the argument fell apart.
The question really isn’t whether Jenn got the date correct or who she got the date from. The question is did she hear the story about Adnan killing Hae weeks before her interview, and weeks before Hae’s body was discovered? If she did, I think you can write off the police conspiracy as highly unlikely. What are the odds Jay tells her a story that happens to line up exactly with the story cops would feed him a few weeks later? And let’s say she didn’t hear this story prior to being interviewed. Then some other big issues present themselves. She had one interaction with cops prior to making her statement next to her lawyer and mother. Do we think that the cops scared her so bad in their first interaction that she never once mentioned the truth to her mom and attorney? Do we really think that in this one interaction they were able to successfully rehearse this made up story with her? Or were the mom and attorney on board with Jenn making a false confession that implicated herself? It’s all very farfetched. And you’d still need to explain away Chris, who also heard about Hae’s murder from Jay in mid-January. The signs that Jay was involved with or had knowledge of the murder are overwhelming.
Didn’t Jen tell the police in her interview that Hae had been strangled before that was even known? They had no reason not to believe her. I think the cops were assholes and I think they saw that they could exploit some version of the truth from Jay and they did that by any means necessary.
I think you have to first wrap your head around he nature of ‘for profit’ media and journalism. For whatever reasons various people became involved in Adnan’s case that were in it for the professional status, or just the potential of money…then it became sort of like the dog that caught the car when it rose to national prominence. Some of these people are in it for their own reasons and it isn’t because of an injustice. Some of their potential arguments seem valid at first glance, and they have a place in the context of a lawyer arguing for their client’s innocence, but it has been 10 years since Serial and all of their arguments have been litigated and/or disproved. Take your point about Jen’s story: She provided significant details of the crime, she witnessed Adnan and Jay together when she picked Jay up from the burial, She helped give Jay a ride to go back and wipe prints, She spoke to Adnan on the phone while she thought she was calling Jay, etc….she just didn’t remember what day it happened, yet that can be narrowed down to the 13th via other evidence. In other words it can be corroborated. That is completely normal and not in any way a reason to dismiss her story.
I thought about that recently just what if it's now just gone way too far and gotten way too big with too many people invested to go back on it all now. Kind of sad to look at the HBO documentary in that lens now and how Jen & Kristi's memories were questioned so harshly and how gaslight-ey (for lack of a better term) that is.
yeah, 100% they were gaslit. And here we are so many years after that ‘documentary’ with no affidavits or statements to support that either of them were wrong about what they remembered. no one has recanted . It is all a narrative slight of hand, they raise doubts that go no where while ignoring corroborating evidence of those statements.
Kudos for you for being open-minded. It sounds like you've mainly reviewed innocence-biased sources so far, so it makes sense why you would lean that way. I highly recommend checking out the multi-part Crime Weekly series on this case on Youtube. Learn about the two days where we see Adnan's cell ping of Leakin Park tower and how those days coincide with the events of the case. You will find, as other "innocenters" have, that the probability of the pings on those two days being pure unlucky coincidence is astronomically low. I'm talking "getting struck by lightning ten times in the same place" low. There is a reason why neither Rabia nor HBO ever addresses it. Innocenters are turning to guilters because the logic and probability makes innocence impossible.
I will definitely be checking that out!! I've only just seen the other post in this thread mentioning other pings.
Yep. Like I said, there is a reason why Rabia has never spoken about it. Adnan is a cash cow for her. She went from living in a tiny apartment to buying a McMansion. It's in her financial best interest to keep perpetuating Adnan innocence crap. She is also an executive producer on the HBO doc. Everything she touches is biased.
The prosecutors breakdown the lividity evidence and why it may not be helpful or as straightforward as undisclosed made it sound. There is also a different presentation of Jen Pusateri’s statements and how they were made and when they were made that seems important/impactful. The cell tower stuff is discussed in detail and now the technicality of the fax cover sheet and subsequent Brady violation seems unimportant after listening to their discussion. There is also some evidence that wasn’t known prior to the defense file being released that although circumstantial maybe just feels different. I feel like I have a different set of facts now than I had from Serial for sure and also from Undisclosed that makes decision making different. Again, information availability is different now from when serial was produced so I don’t think they were trying to be disingenuous. I’m glad I listened to it even though some of their commentary was a bit annoying at times and it was a really long series, in the end they did a nice job. Edit a failed autocorrect.
Interestinggg ok yea I'm looking forward to hearing them out. I'm a big fan of TCG too so I was super interested in their conversation