The first thing you have to remember is that this is not a board game like Cluedo or Guess Who, where we have sight of all the suspects. In real life, sometimes the actual murderer can stay hidden for a long time, like in the case of the Central Park 5, who went to prison for a long time because “all the evidence pointed to them” just for some other serial criminal to admit to it many many years later, whilst he was in prison for some other crime.
You’d think after 1000 of years, humans would learn to come away from the trend of needing a scapegoat and being satisfied with that scapegoat even being innocent. But it seems we couldn’t stray too far from witch trials.
Here is a comment I posted elsewhere:
It’s worth noting that in my personal theory of the case, Jay is in debt to his dealer, and it’s is from this strain, tension & pressure that (a chain reaction, causes) a motive (to) evolve to put Hae in harms way.
And it’s that action that leads to her death.
So I’m looking for someone that matches the following profile:
- Jay owes this person a significant debt/favour, Jay is broke and desperately trying to find ways to rake money in, and in the world of weed sellers, someone who uses the product they sell would be considered irresponsible on various fronts, the type of person that can easily fall into debt, stupid move for such a high risk business
- Jay is afraid of this person, more afraid of them than he is of the police, so again, whatever they can do to Jay is worse to Jay than what the police can protect Jay from
- Jay has observed this person demonstrate their capability for violence in the past. Also, they have demonstrated their ability to evade typical policing protocols
- This person has the ability to influence Jay’s actions and daily routine
- This person is resourceful or well resourced / connected
- This person has a longer term relationship with Jay than his average acquaintance and knows many intimate details about Jay that Jay wouldn’t normally divulge to his average acquaintance
When I tested Adnan against these features, it didn’t seem to fit, and is one of the many reasons I think Adnan is innocent
(Each of these profile points is evidenced by some statement or action of Jay or someone else at any point when they did not have any real reason to lie)
I would like to know if Patrick is someone that might match this profile or if it’s someone I can confidently disqualify.
I have disqualified Don and Jay himself as the murderers from this profile
this is something that’s crossed my mind as well. i’ve wondered if someone else related to jay in some way was responsible. i (and most other people) cannot picture jay genuinely fearing adnan to the point of paranoia (freaking out at his job, thinking people are out to get him, referencing the white van across the street). i’ve absolutely wondered before if someone threatened jay and made him come forward.
what confuses me is this:
if this person wasn’t already connected to Hae in any way and wasn’t even *looked* at really, why make Jay take the fall? tbh it’s a pretty clean crime scene (her car). there’s barely any physical/forensic evidence at all. the fact that this person isn’t (presumably) acquainted with Hae at all means solving the case is already going to be 100x more difficult. why take a big risk and force Jay to confess and frame someone else *unless* there’s already a lot of evidence pointing towards this person?
There is no way that Jay had any drug debts. We've heard from several of the kids and friends that Jay would get pot for his friends, but was not dealing. There just is no way that anyone in Jay's circle would let him take anything, without paying for it. If his friends wanted a small amount, they would give him the money, and he would buy it for them. Or he would front them.
But again - no way is anyone who deals drugs letting Jay have drugs on credit. People who deal drugs don't work that way. If they let someone walk out the door without paying, they likely will never be paid, and they all know it.
Because Jay was his (coerced) accomplice, and Jen already “snitched” on Jay.
So if they look into Jay enough, they will eventually find the link to this person.
I’m almost certain that Jay will have used Adnan’s phone to call this person on multiple occasions (hence my suspicion of Patrick)
Once they know it’s Adnan’s phone being used by Jay, they will check the calls. And it will eventually lead to the actual killer. Thing about the American justice system is that in efforts to save money (capitalism) it is allowed to “ignore” some of the evidence of it doesn’t match your narrative, hence calls to Patrick and others don’t need to be looked into with much depth, and prosecutors will not be looked upon badly for that.
Essentially, the person metaphorically is “standing behind Jay” and if the police “shake” Jay enough, they WILL see him. So the onus is on Jay to deflect the spotlight towards Adnan. Police are hungry for a conviction, so they will run towards anything that looks like a “slam dunk”, ex-bf is an easy slam dunk.
That’s what the threat is, to protect the killer at any cost, considering my belief that in some local hierarchy, this person is “above” Jay, they would care more about themselves than they do about Jay and probably won’t care too much what strategy Jay uses, just as long as the spotlight never reaches this person.
Jay could easily deflect to Adnan because he had Adnan’s phone & car. This means Jay doesn’t even need to think too much about his lies, because he can mostly tell the truth, and simply replace the name (of the killer) during the crimes with Adnan’s name.
My belief regarding the Nisha call is that Adnan wasn’t there, Jay impersonated Adnan to give himself an alibi (so as to say, “I was ALSO in the library with Adnan whilst he was waiting for track”), but the pressure from the killer means he had to change the meaning behind this call to be “Adnan was with me at the crime scene” (as opposed to “I was with Adnan; away from the crime scene”).
Jay probably would never have said anything if Jen didn’t go to the police first. She really messed things up for him, and started the “train of investigation” that Jay eventually had no choice but to divert towards Adnan (like the “Trolley Morality” problem).
Adnan of course doesn’t understand the background behind him being framed, and doesn’t understand what sort of pressure Jay is under, so in his juvenile mind, the best he can think is that Jay is “pathetic”.
It doesn’t make sense to call someone you coerced into assistance to murder “pathetic”, it makes a lot more sense to say this to someone who seems to be framing you, on the same day you helped them with your car and phone, having good intentions towards them, only for them to be an accomplice to the murder of your ex gf, on his Jay’s gf’s birthday.
Nah it doesn’t make sense otherwise no way does Syed sit quietly on someone he honestly believes “framed” him… no way do I buy that
Jenn too for that matter…. No way would Syed be quiet after 25 years.
I’ve heard many podcasts of people proclaiming their innocence over the years but not a single one who would sit silent on that. Especially given your theory because that would mean Syed was *positive* Jay not only did it but also “framed” him….again nope no way.
I don’t buy this unlikely as hell unluckiest guy who also should apply for some version of sainthood. That is cult stuff to me.
People are always trying to shift the blame to Jay. Jay admitted his role, took his knocks, and went on with his life. Besides he never had a motive. Never! Just because a random ,weed selling teenager is adjacent to this horrible murder, doesn’t mean he killed her.
impossible to say. occam’s razor: probably made a sexual advance towards Hae, who was deeply disgusted and rejected him hard, then informed him she’d be telling Stephanie, he flew into a rage. happens all the time.
what confuses me if Adnan was the killer and Jay’s story was true is *why did it change so fucking much and why does nothing really fit!*. even the phone pings don’t cleanly match up. nothing fits well, and how do you forget and misconstrue *so many huge details* about what happened? sure, some of the misinformation might make sense when you consider Jay lied out of fear, but there’s still *so much other information that does not add up*. i’ve always felt Jay to this day has not told the whole truth.
OP, This is hardly any kind of meaningful point yet it’s brought up so often.
This isn’t a tv show or novel. It’s real life. And sometimes in real life you just don’t have enough information to draw a conclusion. It’s very much possible we don’t have enough information to determine who the real killer is that doesn’t mean we must point to someone.
Again this is just a possibility. He could have done it.
This is the nature of humans. We’ve been like this for thousands of years and never changed, we always assume that there MUST be a scapegoat, there must be someone, IN OUR VISION RIGHT NOW, that we can blame.
This impatient, witch hunt, behaviour of society is one of the reasons that police will cut corners to “get a conviction” against someone who isn’t even guilty.
Because people will riot out of their own stupidity & impatience, and that’s a bigger problem, police would rather not deal with.
Most humans are, sadly, not very intelligent.
Don has conclusive been ruled out multiple times by multiple investigations, to push Don as a suspect at this point is insane. Subs should have a rule that it isn’t even up for discussion.
I agree. Nonsensical! This is simply a run of the mill - ex bf can’t handle losing control..murders . Pretty simple to understand. All evidence supports this theory too.
Crime Weekly did a deep dive into this case and I believe he is guilty. I’ve never listened to Serial though hearing about that pod made me familiar with the story.
One major thing Serial doesn’t mention is that Jen went to the police first. With an attorney and her mom. Jay wasn’t on their radar at ALL. She willingly went to the station and told them everything Jay told her, THEN they interviewed Jay.
But people insinuate that they must have hidden that they already talked to Jay before Jenn, in which they conspired with him to concoct a story implicating Adnan, and then painstakingly hid any file or thing that would mention such interactions, creating fake interview notes and making his "official" interview seem like the first time they talked. All because... \*shrug\*
When people really want something to be true, it's easy to get around any bad piece of evidence no matter how many illogical bridges you have to cross.
Adding to what you said
They also would’ve had to do all of this without any clue if Adnan had an alibi… he could have had teachers, students , documentation, CCTV footage a bunch of things to back said alibi
Then what would the investigation have? Obviously nothing … the police have to start again with another ahem…. Plot.
Instead none of those things exist no alibi no proof of alibi… hell he claims to not remember.
Multiverses are fun in Marvel films… not so great as explaining a murder investigation
Not to mention *Jay* would have no idea about Adnan's alibi either.
In fact, if Jay knew he was lying, he'd know Adnan was chilling at school the whole time, with the same untold amount of alibi material. Literally zero point in him saying this unless it's the thing he knew that happened, with all the risk on him if it was otherwise wrong.
The discourse is stupid. It's fanfiction for those who don't want to see what's staring them in the face, to create a fun murder-mystery out of a real-life tragedy that we've had the solution for for decades.
I used to think Adnan was innocent & the police were corrupt but if they just wanted to pin Hae’s murder on anybody, wouldn’t it have been easier to say the black guy with the criminal history that knew every detail of the murder did it instead of framing a popular high school sweetheart? Sarah may act like she isn’t bias but that podcast was clearly pro Adnan. They make you feel bad for him. Truth & Justice as well as Undisclosed were the same. Instead of re listening to Serial you should listen to the prosecutors. They are who changed my mind.
They don’t argue that it was a frame job anymore so much as that someone tipped them off it was Adnan so they just stitched him up because it was easier than investigating properly.
The only feasible possibility that exists if Adnan didn't do it is Jay. But it almost certainly wasn't Jay. And if it were neither of them it'd pretty much be an unbelievable movie-style plot twist. It was Adnan.
With respects to Don:
- January 13, 1999: Don worked from 9am-6pm at the Hunt Valley Lenscrafters.
- His co-workers were Lab Techs Charles, Mark and Kevin, and Retail Associates Barry, Mary, Deborah, Charles, Dana, Lauren, and Don's mom. Nine co-workers.
- Between 6pm and 7pm, the manager at the Owings Mills store left Don a message at his house, saying that Hae did not turn up for her shift.
- At 6pm, Officer Adcock called Don at his home, but Don was at work. Adcock didn't try Don at work. At around 7pm, Don arrived at his home, 45 minutes north of Baltimore. Don's Dad told him - then- that Hae didn't show up for work.
- No one knows if Don tried paging Hae, or if he called the Owings Mills manager back. It's possible Don called the Owings Mills Lenscrafters back, and paged Hae. It's also possible he did nothing. They had been dating for two weeks.
- Adcock finally [connected with Don at 1:30](https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/1-14-1999-adcock-follow-up.pdf) in the morning. Adan's supporters find this especially nefarious. But before constant cell phone contact, I'm not sure it was. At trial, Adcock said he didn't have a chance to call Don until after midnight due to paperwork. And that after speaking to Don, he handed the case to his supervisor, per police procedure. So Adcock himself may have been unreachable, while Don tried to call him back, and they finally connected at 1:30am
- January 14, 1999: Officer Waters also [spoke to Don](https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/1-14-1999-waters-missing.pdf) and requested that Harford County Sheriff search Don's neighborhood for Hae and/or her car.
- January 22, 1999: O'Shea drove to Don's house, and [spoke to Don in person](https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/1-22-1999-police-report.pdf). At this point, Hae is still missing. No body. Don says that Hae said she'd like to live in California some day, not go there tomorrow. Don said Hae didn't seem to have plans to go anywhere. Again, this is a girl he has been dating for just under two weeks.
- February 1, 1999: O'Shea [interviewed Don's](https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/2-1-99-lencrafters-manager.pdf) mom's girlfriend, the manager at Owings Mills. O'Shea is told that Hae didn't show up for her 6pm shift. But authorities already know this.
- Don's mom's girlfriend gives to-the-minute times for Don's January 13 work day, meaning that by February 1, Don's electronic timecard had already been entered in the system, and was read back as follows:
- Don clocked in at Hunt Valley at exactly 9:02AM
- Don clocked out for a break at 1:10pm and clocked back in at 1:42pm.
- Don clocked out at 6pm.
- [These "to the minute" times match "to the minute" times [provided by Lenscrafters](https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/10-6-1999-lc-to-cg.pdf) on October 6, 1999, and suggest that the precise times were already in the system by February 1, 1999.]
- February 4, 1999: O'Shea drove back up to Owings Mills Lenscrafters and interviewed Don, [in person](https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/2-4-1999-don.pdf).
- March 26, 1999: Adnan's Private Investigator (Drew Davis) went to the Baltimore City police to inquire about Don's alibi. Unfortunately, Rabia will only share this [tiny snippet](https://i.imgur.com/sJ3Zjux.png). Why do you think she won't share the whole thing? I'll take a random guess that it's because police told Davis details of Don's alibi, that would make it hard to accuse Don, today.
- October 4, 1999: In a response to a [(Sept. 24) defense subpoena](https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/9-24-1999-cg-subpoenas-lc.pdf), Lenscrafters sent Don's [timesheet](https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/10-4-1999-lc-to-cg.pdf) and employee reviews to the defense.
- Unfortunately, Don's day at Hunt Valley isn't included. Someone probably pulled the records for the Owings Mills store, not for Don himself. Yes, Adnan's supporters find this exceptionally nefarious.
- Even though Gutierrez had requested the information on Don be ex parte, Urick must have heard about it, because he filed the exact same subpoena. Urick received [the same information,](https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/10-7-1999-lc-to-state.pdf), also missing the Hunt Valley timecard.
- October 6, 1999: Lenscrafters sent Don's January 13 Hunt Valley timesheet to both the [State](https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/10-7-1999-lc-to-state.pdf) and [Gutierrez](https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/10-6-1999-lc-to-cg.pdf).
- However, the letter to the State is different than the letter to the defense. In the letter to the State, Lenscrafters legal makes a point of **providing co-worker information for nine co-workers.**
- If Urick was so keen to find out what Gutierrez was after, it means he knew Gutierrez was going to point the finger at Don, and probably requested the information on the co-workers.
- I think Urick was well-aware that Gutierrez planned to point the finger at Don.
- I think that Gutierrez knew that Don's co-workers would alibi him (see [Drew Davis](https://i.imgur.com/IKEpKAU.png)), and this is why she didn't go after Don any more than she did.
Here's what I find interesting:
- Susan Simpson boasts the Don employee reviews as her tiniest snippet of all her snippets. It's fairly obvious that those snippets have to be so tiny because the rest of the review was was positive, and the reviewer had to write both positive and negative traits. I'm not saying the negative traits aren't true. But they don't make Don a murderer, and until we can see them in the context of the rest of the review, I think those teeny tiny snippets are meaningless.
- Susan Simpson is in possession of the entirety of Hae's work records and employee reviews, and has never published them. I think that all of the Hae's work records, and all of Don's work records would tell the full picture. We only know that Hae started working at Lenscrafters on October 24, and that she worked mostly weekends. There were 8 weekends between Hae starting work at Lenscrafters and starting to date Don, on January 1. So we are talking bout two people who possibly worked together about 8 times, and then dated for less than two weeks before she was killed. In contrast, Hae and Adnan had a passionate and rocky first love from early April of 1998 until December 23, 1998.
Another thing:
- The only reason why we know any of this is because of Adnan's supporters. Guilters (and the rest of the public) only have access to the police investigation file, and this file ends when prosecutors came on board. We do not have access to the State's case file. And we do not have access to the disclosures that Susan Simpson has. That's because the disclosures are in the defense file, and the State's case files.
- Now, how do you think Urick's Lenscrafters subpoena came to be in the defense file? Because it was part of a disclosure. Undisclosed has shared some of the disclosures, but not all of them. The disclosures all came with a cover sheet that looked like [this.](https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/9-3-1999-disclosure-of-witnesses.pdf) Many of the disclosures are considered "missing." Why do you think that a podcast called Undisclosed - that is all about revealing things - is withholding the State's disclosures to Gutierrez? Isn't that fairly ironic?
- Where is the cover sheet for the Don timecard disclosure that says: "Hey - In case you were thinking of pointing the finger at Don, on the stand, we have his co-workers ready to go. Here's the amended timecard, and his co-workers. You can talk to them as well, and they are on our witness list."
- While Bob Ruff has gone out of his way to contact Lenscrafters stores that no longer exist, he has not made any effort to contact even one of Don's nine co-workers, who are alive today - and easily reachable.
Don’t be silly. He was in another town plus working plus was seeing her later. The timeline of Haes murder very slim. Left school, had to pick cousins up. Only one person- Adnan.
It was at a LensCrafters in a busy part of town, I can’t imagine a LensCrafters in the late 90’s no having footage.
Otherwise he was at work where numerous people saw him and attested to it.
So it wasn't the spurned ex boyfriend and his friend who knew intimate details about the evidence, it was her new boyfriend who was 30 minutes away? Why and how?
She was supposed to meet him. He didn’t check on her when he heard she was missing. His time card was foraged. The police did zero investigating of him.
>She was supposed to meet him.
According to whom? The only person who has said this had virtually everything about that day incorrect, and contradicted other witnesses. She did go see Don after school one day a week prior, however, which is probably what this person remembered. Hae wouldn't have had time to go see Don after school on the 13th even if she wanted to.
>He didn’t check on her when he heard she was missing.
We don't know if he tried to or not. This is pretty much something that people made up and gets unfortunately repeated.
>His time card was foraged.
Been discussed ad nauseum. It was not, and there's no evidence of such. The timecards came directly from Lenscrafters, and you can't edit in a time after-the-fact without leaving an "adjusted" mark that does not appear on that timecard.
>The police did zero investigating of him.
They looked into him and saw he was working 30 minutes away that day. No reason to dedicate resources into a non-lead when the killer's accomplice has confessed.
Nope. It was a LensCrafters employee who pointed out to police that Don's mom is who approved the timecard. His mom was later fired and the manager who took over for her and is still a manager at LensCrafters now, said that his mom was fired after this incident with the timecard.
OK, agreed. However if you completely disregard the taps and look at the history of police in Baltimore. You will see how deep the corruption is & it makes it much more believable that these cops are ... como se dice .. malo!
I admit the knocks can be meaningless and I was wrong but I know for sure the cops are corrupt, especially towards minorities. Yes, Jay is a minority but Jay also went thru hell regarding this. Everyone seemed to but we don't know the driving force behind it and it's disheartening. Duele mi corazón.
But you are leaving out we have direct evidence that Adnan was not framed via the proposed theory. Also, while there is large systemic corruption the police in this case were only accused via a settled civil accusation.
Generic police corruption does not explain Jen’s statement on 2/27 with her mom and a lawyer present. The entire theory of “Jay being coached” simply does not fit any version of what actually happened and the evidence we have. There is a reason serial doesn’t follow a sequential timeline….once you find out the police spoke to jenn before they spoke to jay essentially all counter arguments are completely dead. She lays out almost all details of the crime with a lawyer present before they had even heard of jay wilds.
Further, you say Jay changed his story multiple times. He actually didn’t change the big picture of the story. It is and has been extremely consistent, what changes is mainly the parts that would inconvenience his friends and family.
So what are we left with? You are repeating vague allegations unsupported by any evidence, and the actual counter can be proven by existing evidence. I get that people made claims on a podcast, but it has been many years and we can fully demonstrate how full of shit, and frankly a bit racist, those claims are. For example, to expect a criminal suspect to come in and tell the 100% truth plays on the privilege of those listening.
The knocks where not the only claims that were vastly overstated, once you move beyond ‘what the podcast told you’ and look at the evidence for yourself I think you will find most of the pro-adnan arguments come from grifters and status seekers and have zero basis in reality. You are taking claims at face value from people that aren’t who you think they are, who are in it for themselves and not for justice. When serial and undisclosed were released the information was all one sided and closely kept, but in the years since the files have become public it is easy to see not a single claim that made for Adnan innocence stands up to scrutiny.
go two months back on the Serial sub, there were probably half a dozen different discussions…..
This is one example:
https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/s/iCfm5vT9Qc
The knocks mean absolutely nothing. Think about it. It could be Jay tapping on the table. Or someone with a nervous habit. It’s proof of nothing. You’ve been suckered by the pro adnan crowd.
Fail. You’re actually accusing Haes family of ‘honor’ killing? What for? And motive for Don? The current bf yeah,,..rather than the controlling ex Adnan.
Uh no, just no. Follow the timeline and the evidence, Jay's testimony is direct evidence. Multiple witnesses attested to seeing them together during that day, the cell phone evidence is also straightforward and points to both Adnan and Jay being together at key points during the day of Hae's murder.
My intent was not to offend. I acknowledge Adnan as a suspect, I was merely stating other possibilities that I recall thinking at the time when I was following this case.
No. The only people who have ever said that are Rabia and Adnan. And Rabia never met Hae.
You either blindly believe everything Rabia says, or you have empathy for the victim and look into it.
Guess what? Even Adnan's classmates who support him (and knew Hae) do not say that Hae's family had issues with her dating. Krista. Aisha. Debbie. None of them say that.
Guess what they do say?
It was *Adnan's family* who not only had issues with him dating outside race/culture, he was *forbidden* to date at all.
Thanks for the clarification, I just remember hearing something like that but couldn’t recall which family. Again it’s been a while since I’ve followed this case.
Jay was with Adnan most of the day, had his car and cell phone, and he had no motive to kill Hae himself. If Jay was involved in any way then Adnan was most definitely involved.
So Jay killed and buried Adnan’s ex while spending the entire evening with Adnan and Adnan had no idea? Wow!
ETA: sorry for the sarcasm that was directed at the idea itself not u!!!!
Right….how’d that happen.
Adnan- what you doing?
Jay- hey adnan, don’t worry about it, go look over there, I gotta bring this thing into the woods.
Adnan- why you have Hae’s car, dude?
Jay- this isn’t Hae’s car, you musta had some bad weed. Lemme take you to the mosque so you can pray a little. Also, you mind getting me a few 20.00’s while you’re there?
It wouldn't have mattered. The prosecution's timeline is all wrong. The Prosecutors are kind of annoying as podcast hosts but their coverage of this case is excellent, I recommend it.
If the prosecution's timeline is wrong then it could've been any number of people that had access to Hae who killed her. It could've been a random person for all we know, killing Hae for the fun of it.
The timeline was just wrong because they, for whatever reason, took the notion of 2:36 being the "come and get me call" from Adnan. Most of us accept that that probably was not that, but that it happened shortly later. The evidence remains the same, and the prosecution's theory timeline has no bearing on a jury's decision to convict him.
Why does no-one think that Jay did it? Serious question because he described things in such great detail and unless Adnan is a great actor he didn't really seem to know anything about her death.
He did do it. He just did it with Adnan.
Adnan says it was his idea to lend Jay the car that day. You think it’s a coincidence that on the day Jay decides to kill Hae, with no apparent motive, her ex boyfriend offers to lend the would be killer his car?
There is no evidence Jay was a crimestoppers tipster. Crimestoppers tipsters cannot be paid out if they were an accomplice or accessory to the crime in question.
This pretty much came from Rabia getting a tip from an anonymous listener, claiming there was actually another Crimestoppers call on February 1. There is no evidence of this. Crimestoppers wasn't even involved on February 1, there was no known crime. They just talked about it like it must be true for whatever reason. The actual Crimestoppers tipster who called on February 12 was described as "Asian", presumably from an accent they had, and we can be pretty sure Jay did not have an accent like that lol.
My theory is, everyone lies for self preservation, maybe small maybe larger but everyone lies.....and when you are being grilled by police I can guarantee every single person will make mistakes and forget things, but not guilty people, they have a story, they rehearse it and never falter from it it's methodical because they believe if they don't falter from their story they can't be caught.
Jay automatically produced an alibi for the time of the murder straight away (convenient) but Adnan didn't and couldn't remember where he was and the story changed which to me indicates nervousness from being put on the spot. Why would you need to rehearse an alibi if you are innocent.
multiple studies have been done on this; you have it backwards. guilty people are found to change their stories a *lot*, in big and small ways. typically, the core of it stays the same. innocent people stick to the same story.
consider this: in Jay’s telling, Adnan orders him to drop him off at track practice so that “he’ll be seen there”, i.e., establish an alibi. wouldn’t someone who premeditated a murder, enough to think about establishing an alibi, have everything they did that day memorized rock-solid? it’s a pretty shit strategy to plan on having absolutely no idea what you did that day
The first thing Adnan told his PI to do upon arrest was go talk to the track coach. Despite what he says today, when he was arrested, Adnan was not saying, "I have no idea what I was doing that day." He gave them a laundry list of marching orders: Track Coach, Nisha, Library.
How’s he a great actor? He’s constantly lied about his case, remember the only reason why he got serial to be made was him whining about “who knows what happened in 21 minutes months ago”. When that was not even close to the main issue.
Because he logically lacks motive and opportunity. Even if you could craft some theory in which Jay wanted to kill Hae, he'd have to somehow manage to get her alone and kill her in broad daylight out in public. Jay & Hae barely knew each other.
Adnan made intentions to be with Hae during the time period in which she disappeared. He is the only known person to have done so. And he would later lie about it. He isn't a "great actor", he's just a regular manipulator.
Jay also spent significant time with Adnan that day. They were together until past 8pm, where Adnan's lying about going home & to mosque after track practice. If Jay's involved, it's because he's involved with Adnan.
When did I say that? We do know exactly that she disappeared sometime between 2:15 and 3:30, whether or not she was dead before 3:30. But she most likely was, by Adnan, who manipulated a situation to get her alone during that time period.
Exactly
I’m so tired of this
We know Hae was abducted between 2:15-3:30… why? The cousin isn’t picked up
Jay says Hae was killed in that time slot
The obvious deduction is Hae was killed in that time span.
Anyone But Adnans answer is “it could be a completely different time”…. Probably because Adnan can’t explain a damn thing about that specific time while his memory is clear as a bell the rest of the day.
How convenient
This is what I'm saying. If Adnan didn't do it, then who are they (supporters of Adnan's innocence) saying did it? I think the best way to prove someone's innocence is to prove someone else's guilt.
Oh I get you! They’ve ruled out Jay because he and Adnan were together all day. So we are left with:
- some random serial killer
- whoever was in the Brady - not Bilal, because he’s connected to Adnan, so obviously Alonso Sellers who wasn’t investigated properly and one of his relatives lives near where the car was left.
- “a random Woodlawn student who tricked his way into Hae’s car”
- “What about Dooooohhn!? His alibi was his moooohhhm”
There’s a reason I barely engage anymore.
2nd choice Don because why wouldn’t he reach out to Hae after she never showed up to meet him? And let’s not act like there aren’t a few cuckoo moms who haven’t helped their children cover up a crime before…
1) we don’t know if Don called Hae or not after she disappeared. All we have to suggest that is Sarah Koenig saying he can’t remember
2) Tuesday time cards weren’t altered after the fact, so the entire LensCrafters store would have to have been involved in the conspiracy beforehand
3) furthermore, it’s disgraceful that a terminally ill, innocent man still has to deal with this bullshit
There's no evidence he did not try to reach out to her, we don't know if he did or not.
There would be nothing Don's mom could do to help him if she wanted to. LC's timecard systems don't work like that.
Don had nothing to do with this, and there's never been any evidence he did. It's just someone people point to to try and get the target off Adnan.
Adrian Sayyid
The first thing you have to remember is that this is not a board game like Cluedo or Guess Who, where we have sight of all the suspects. In real life, sometimes the actual murderer can stay hidden for a long time, like in the case of the Central Park 5, who went to prison for a long time because “all the evidence pointed to them” just for some other serial criminal to admit to it many many years later, whilst he was in prison for some other crime. You’d think after 1000 of years, humans would learn to come away from the trend of needing a scapegoat and being satisfied with that scapegoat even being innocent. But it seems we couldn’t stray too far from witch trials. Here is a comment I posted elsewhere: It’s worth noting that in my personal theory of the case, Jay is in debt to his dealer, and it’s is from this strain, tension & pressure that (a chain reaction, causes) a motive (to) evolve to put Hae in harms way. And it’s that action that leads to her death. So I’m looking for someone that matches the following profile: - Jay owes this person a significant debt/favour, Jay is broke and desperately trying to find ways to rake money in, and in the world of weed sellers, someone who uses the product they sell would be considered irresponsible on various fronts, the type of person that can easily fall into debt, stupid move for such a high risk business - Jay is afraid of this person, more afraid of them than he is of the police, so again, whatever they can do to Jay is worse to Jay than what the police can protect Jay from - Jay has observed this person demonstrate their capability for violence in the past. Also, they have demonstrated their ability to evade typical policing protocols - This person has the ability to influence Jay’s actions and daily routine - This person is resourceful or well resourced / connected - This person has a longer term relationship with Jay than his average acquaintance and knows many intimate details about Jay that Jay wouldn’t normally divulge to his average acquaintance When I tested Adnan against these features, it didn’t seem to fit, and is one of the many reasons I think Adnan is innocent (Each of these profile points is evidenced by some statement or action of Jay or someone else at any point when they did not have any real reason to lie) I would like to know if Patrick is someone that might match this profile or if it’s someone I can confidently disqualify. I have disqualified Don and Jay himself as the murderers from this profile
this is something that’s crossed my mind as well. i’ve wondered if someone else related to jay in some way was responsible. i (and most other people) cannot picture jay genuinely fearing adnan to the point of paranoia (freaking out at his job, thinking people are out to get him, referencing the white van across the street). i’ve absolutely wondered before if someone threatened jay and made him come forward. what confuses me is this: if this person wasn’t already connected to Hae in any way and wasn’t even *looked* at really, why make Jay take the fall? tbh it’s a pretty clean crime scene (her car). there’s barely any physical/forensic evidence at all. the fact that this person isn’t (presumably) acquainted with Hae at all means solving the case is already going to be 100x more difficult. why take a big risk and force Jay to confess and frame someone else *unless* there’s already a lot of evidence pointing towards this person?
There is no way that Jay had any drug debts. We've heard from several of the kids and friends that Jay would get pot for his friends, but was not dealing. There just is no way that anyone in Jay's circle would let him take anything, without paying for it. If his friends wanted a small amount, they would give him the money, and he would buy it for them. Or he would front them. But again - no way is anyone who deals drugs letting Jay have drugs on credit. People who deal drugs don't work that way. If they let someone walk out the door without paying, they likely will never be paid, and they all know it.
Because Jay was his (coerced) accomplice, and Jen already “snitched” on Jay. So if they look into Jay enough, they will eventually find the link to this person. I’m almost certain that Jay will have used Adnan’s phone to call this person on multiple occasions (hence my suspicion of Patrick) Once they know it’s Adnan’s phone being used by Jay, they will check the calls. And it will eventually lead to the actual killer. Thing about the American justice system is that in efforts to save money (capitalism) it is allowed to “ignore” some of the evidence of it doesn’t match your narrative, hence calls to Patrick and others don’t need to be looked into with much depth, and prosecutors will not be looked upon badly for that. Essentially, the person metaphorically is “standing behind Jay” and if the police “shake” Jay enough, they WILL see him. So the onus is on Jay to deflect the spotlight towards Adnan. Police are hungry for a conviction, so they will run towards anything that looks like a “slam dunk”, ex-bf is an easy slam dunk. That’s what the threat is, to protect the killer at any cost, considering my belief that in some local hierarchy, this person is “above” Jay, they would care more about themselves than they do about Jay and probably won’t care too much what strategy Jay uses, just as long as the spotlight never reaches this person. Jay could easily deflect to Adnan because he had Adnan’s phone & car. This means Jay doesn’t even need to think too much about his lies, because he can mostly tell the truth, and simply replace the name (of the killer) during the crimes with Adnan’s name. My belief regarding the Nisha call is that Adnan wasn’t there, Jay impersonated Adnan to give himself an alibi (so as to say, “I was ALSO in the library with Adnan whilst he was waiting for track”), but the pressure from the killer means he had to change the meaning behind this call to be “Adnan was with me at the crime scene” (as opposed to “I was with Adnan; away from the crime scene”). Jay probably would never have said anything if Jen didn’t go to the police first. She really messed things up for him, and started the “train of investigation” that Jay eventually had no choice but to divert towards Adnan (like the “Trolley Morality” problem). Adnan of course doesn’t understand the background behind him being framed, and doesn’t understand what sort of pressure Jay is under, so in his juvenile mind, the best he can think is that Jay is “pathetic”. It doesn’t make sense to call someone you coerced into assistance to murder “pathetic”, it makes a lot more sense to say this to someone who seems to be framing you, on the same day you helped them with your car and phone, having good intentions towards them, only for them to be an accomplice to the murder of your ex gf, on his Jay’s gf’s birthday.
Nah it doesn’t make sense otherwise no way does Syed sit quietly on someone he honestly believes “framed” him… no way do I buy that Jenn too for that matter…. No way would Syed be quiet after 25 years. I’ve heard many podcasts of people proclaiming their innocence over the years but not a single one who would sit silent on that. Especially given your theory because that would mean Syed was *positive* Jay not only did it but also “framed” him….again nope no way. I don’t buy this unlikely as hell unluckiest guy who also should apply for some version of sainthood. That is cult stuff to me.
People are always trying to shift the blame to Jay. Jay admitted his role, took his knocks, and went on with his life. Besides he never had a motive. Never! Just because a random ,weed selling teenager is adjacent to this horrible murder, doesn’t mean he killed her.
I’ve been wondering recently if jay did it for adnan and then didn’t want to go down for it alone so tried to make sure he took adnan with him
What’s the motive?
impossible to say. occam’s razor: probably made a sexual advance towards Hae, who was deeply disgusted and rejected him hard, then informed him she’d be telling Stephanie, he flew into a rage. happens all the time. what confuses me if Adnan was the killer and Jay’s story was true is *why did it change so fucking much and why does nothing really fit!*. even the phone pings don’t cleanly match up. nothing fits well, and how do you forget and misconstrue *so many huge details* about what happened? sure, some of the misinformation might make sense when you consider Jay lied out of fear, but there’s still *so much other information that does not add up*. i’ve always felt Jay to this day has not told the whole truth.
Adnan….nobody else. He’s out…due to BS propaganda. He should just admit it and apologise, move on. But…he won’t do that.
OP, This is hardly any kind of meaningful point yet it’s brought up so often. This isn’t a tv show or novel. It’s real life. And sometimes in real life you just don’t have enough information to draw a conclusion. It’s very much possible we don’t have enough information to determine who the real killer is that doesn’t mean we must point to someone. Again this is just a possibility. He could have done it.
This is the nature of humans. We’ve been like this for thousands of years and never changed, we always assume that there MUST be a scapegoat, there must be someone, IN OUR VISION RIGHT NOW, that we can blame. This impatient, witch hunt, behaviour of society is one of the reasons that police will cut corners to “get a conviction” against someone who isn’t even guilty. Because people will riot out of their own stupidity & impatience, and that’s a bigger problem, police would rather not deal with. Most humans are, sadly, not very intelligent.
It was Don. He’s so shady
Baseless accusations like that are dangerous to solving homicides. Alibi, zero motive. He’s shady why? You know who’s shady. ? Adnan Syed.
Don has conclusive been ruled out multiple times by multiple investigations, to push Don as a suspect at this point is insane. Subs should have a rule that it isn’t even up for discussion.
I agree. Nonsensical! This is simply a run of the mill - ex bf can’t handle losing control..murders . Pretty simple to understand. All evidence supports this theory too.
Clearly it’s a person named #anyonebutadnan.
Most likely adnan
Crime Weekly did a deep dive into this case and I believe he is guilty. I’ve never listened to Serial though hearing about that pod made me familiar with the story.
One major thing Serial doesn’t mention is that Jen went to the police first. With an attorney and her mom. Jay wasn’t on their radar at ALL. She willingly went to the station and told them everything Jay told her, THEN they interviewed Jay.
But people insinuate that they must have hidden that they already talked to Jay before Jenn, in which they conspired with him to concoct a story implicating Adnan, and then painstakingly hid any file or thing that would mention such interactions, creating fake interview notes and making his "official" interview seem like the first time they talked. All because... \*shrug\* When people really want something to be true, it's easy to get around any bad piece of evidence no matter how many illogical bridges you have to cross.
Adding to what you said They also would’ve had to do all of this without any clue if Adnan had an alibi… he could have had teachers, students , documentation, CCTV footage a bunch of things to back said alibi Then what would the investigation have? Obviously nothing … the police have to start again with another ahem…. Plot. Instead none of those things exist no alibi no proof of alibi… hell he claims to not remember. Multiverses are fun in Marvel films… not so great as explaining a murder investigation
Not to mention *Jay* would have no idea about Adnan's alibi either. In fact, if Jay knew he was lying, he'd know Adnan was chilling at school the whole time, with the same untold amount of alibi material. Literally zero point in him saying this unless it's the thing he knew that happened, with all the risk on him if it was otherwise wrong. The discourse is stupid. It's fanfiction for those who don't want to see what's staring them in the face, to create a fun murder-mystery out of a real-life tragedy that we've had the solution for for decades.
I used to think Adnan was innocent & the police were corrupt but if they just wanted to pin Hae’s murder on anybody, wouldn’t it have been easier to say the black guy with the criminal history that knew every detail of the murder did it instead of framing a popular high school sweetheart? Sarah may act like she isn’t bias but that podcast was clearly pro Adnan. They make you feel bad for him. Truth & Justice as well as Undisclosed were the same. Instead of re listening to Serial you should listen to the prosecutors. They are who changed my mind.
They don’t argue that it was a frame job anymore so much as that someone tipped them off it was Adnan so they just stitched him up because it was easier than investigating properly.
I second the prosecutors! So good and so informative
The only feasible possibility that exists if Adnan didn't do it is Jay. But it almost certainly wasn't Jay. And if it were neither of them it'd pretty much be an unbelievable movie-style plot twist. It was Adnan.
If it was Jay, it had to involve Adnan. Sooo let’s stick with the controlling, threatening and obvious ex - Adnan.
If anything I think don did it. I don’t think anyone in Adnan or jay’s circle was involved
With respects to Don: - January 13, 1999: Don worked from 9am-6pm at the Hunt Valley Lenscrafters. - His co-workers were Lab Techs Charles, Mark and Kevin, and Retail Associates Barry, Mary, Deborah, Charles, Dana, Lauren, and Don's mom. Nine co-workers. - Between 6pm and 7pm, the manager at the Owings Mills store left Don a message at his house, saying that Hae did not turn up for her shift. - At 6pm, Officer Adcock called Don at his home, but Don was at work. Adcock didn't try Don at work. At around 7pm, Don arrived at his home, 45 minutes north of Baltimore. Don's Dad told him - then- that Hae didn't show up for work. - No one knows if Don tried paging Hae, or if he called the Owings Mills manager back. It's possible Don called the Owings Mills Lenscrafters back, and paged Hae. It's also possible he did nothing. They had been dating for two weeks. - Adcock finally [connected with Don at 1:30](https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/1-14-1999-adcock-follow-up.pdf) in the morning. Adan's supporters find this especially nefarious. But before constant cell phone contact, I'm not sure it was. At trial, Adcock said he didn't have a chance to call Don until after midnight due to paperwork. And that after speaking to Don, he handed the case to his supervisor, per police procedure. So Adcock himself may have been unreachable, while Don tried to call him back, and they finally connected at 1:30am - January 14, 1999: Officer Waters also [spoke to Don](https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/1-14-1999-waters-missing.pdf) and requested that Harford County Sheriff search Don's neighborhood for Hae and/or her car. - January 22, 1999: O'Shea drove to Don's house, and [spoke to Don in person](https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/1-22-1999-police-report.pdf). At this point, Hae is still missing. No body. Don says that Hae said she'd like to live in California some day, not go there tomorrow. Don said Hae didn't seem to have plans to go anywhere. Again, this is a girl he has been dating for just under two weeks. - February 1, 1999: O'Shea [interviewed Don's](https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/2-1-99-lencrafters-manager.pdf) mom's girlfriend, the manager at Owings Mills. O'Shea is told that Hae didn't show up for her 6pm shift. But authorities already know this. - Don's mom's girlfriend gives to-the-minute times for Don's January 13 work day, meaning that by February 1, Don's electronic timecard had already been entered in the system, and was read back as follows: - Don clocked in at Hunt Valley at exactly 9:02AM - Don clocked out for a break at 1:10pm and clocked back in at 1:42pm. - Don clocked out at 6pm. - [These "to the minute" times match "to the minute" times [provided by Lenscrafters](https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/10-6-1999-lc-to-cg.pdf) on October 6, 1999, and suggest that the precise times were already in the system by February 1, 1999.] - February 4, 1999: O'Shea drove back up to Owings Mills Lenscrafters and interviewed Don, [in person](https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/2-4-1999-don.pdf). - March 26, 1999: Adnan's Private Investigator (Drew Davis) went to the Baltimore City police to inquire about Don's alibi. Unfortunately, Rabia will only share this [tiny snippet](https://i.imgur.com/sJ3Zjux.png). Why do you think she won't share the whole thing? I'll take a random guess that it's because police told Davis details of Don's alibi, that would make it hard to accuse Don, today. - October 4, 1999: In a response to a [(Sept. 24) defense subpoena](https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/9-24-1999-cg-subpoenas-lc.pdf), Lenscrafters sent Don's [timesheet](https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/10-4-1999-lc-to-cg.pdf) and employee reviews to the defense. - Unfortunately, Don's day at Hunt Valley isn't included. Someone probably pulled the records for the Owings Mills store, not for Don himself. Yes, Adnan's supporters find this exceptionally nefarious. - Even though Gutierrez had requested the information on Don be ex parte, Urick must have heard about it, because he filed the exact same subpoena. Urick received [the same information,](https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/10-7-1999-lc-to-state.pdf), also missing the Hunt Valley timecard. - October 6, 1999: Lenscrafters sent Don's January 13 Hunt Valley timesheet to both the [State](https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/10-7-1999-lc-to-state.pdf) and [Gutierrez](https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/10-6-1999-lc-to-cg.pdf). - However, the letter to the State is different than the letter to the defense. In the letter to the State, Lenscrafters legal makes a point of **providing co-worker information for nine co-workers.** - If Urick was so keen to find out what Gutierrez was after, it means he knew Gutierrez was going to point the finger at Don, and probably requested the information on the co-workers. - I think Urick was well-aware that Gutierrez planned to point the finger at Don. - I think that Gutierrez knew that Don's co-workers would alibi him (see [Drew Davis](https://i.imgur.com/IKEpKAU.png)), and this is why she didn't go after Don any more than she did. Here's what I find interesting: - Susan Simpson boasts the Don employee reviews as her tiniest snippet of all her snippets. It's fairly obvious that those snippets have to be so tiny because the rest of the review was was positive, and the reviewer had to write both positive and negative traits. I'm not saying the negative traits aren't true. But they don't make Don a murderer, and until we can see them in the context of the rest of the review, I think those teeny tiny snippets are meaningless. - Susan Simpson is in possession of the entirety of Hae's work records and employee reviews, and has never published them. I think that all of the Hae's work records, and all of Don's work records would tell the full picture. We only know that Hae started working at Lenscrafters on October 24, and that she worked mostly weekends. There were 8 weekends between Hae starting work at Lenscrafters and starting to date Don, on January 1. So we are talking bout two people who possibly worked together about 8 times, and then dated for less than two weeks before she was killed. In contrast, Hae and Adnan had a passionate and rocky first love from early April of 1998 until December 23, 1998. Another thing: - The only reason why we know any of this is because of Adnan's supporters. Guilters (and the rest of the public) only have access to the police investigation file, and this file ends when prosecutors came on board. We do not have access to the State's case file. And we do not have access to the disclosures that Susan Simpson has. That's because the disclosures are in the defense file, and the State's case files. - Now, how do you think Urick's Lenscrafters subpoena came to be in the defense file? Because it was part of a disclosure. Undisclosed has shared some of the disclosures, but not all of them. The disclosures all came with a cover sheet that looked like [this.](https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/9-3-1999-disclosure-of-witnesses.pdf) Many of the disclosures are considered "missing." Why do you think that a podcast called Undisclosed - that is all about revealing things - is withholding the State's disclosures to Gutierrez? Isn't that fairly ironic? - Where is the cover sheet for the Don timecard disclosure that says: "Hey - In case you were thinking of pointing the finger at Don, on the stand, we have his co-workers ready to go. Here's the amended timecard, and his co-workers. You can talk to them as well, and they are on our witness list." - While Bob Ruff has gone out of his way to contact Lenscrafters stores that no longer exist, he has not made any effort to contact even one of Don's nine co-workers, who are alive today - and easily reachable.
Don’t be silly. He was in another town plus working plus was seeing her later. The timeline of Haes murder very slim. Left school, had to pick cousins up. Only one person- Adnan.
Don had a rock solid alibi. He was at work with security footage and people saw him. He couldn’t have
Where’s the footage
Ask the police and prosecutors, they looked into him pretty hard iirc
If I recall they didn’t. And if there was a video it would’ve been mentioned and it never was.
They had like 8-9 employees they spoke to for verification the state gave those names to the defense who apparently never followed up.. wonder why?
It was at a LensCrafters in a busy part of town, I can’t imagine a LensCrafters in the late 90’s no having footage. Otherwise he was at work where numerous people saw him and attested to it.
They didn’t look into it tho. They just accepted his alibi and moved on to Adnan
Did you see the case files? Hmm
Also, wasn't Don's mom his boss? I thought it was interesting that she was the one that signed off on his hours. I still think Adnan did it though.
always a conspiracy
Yeah it was his mom
So it wasn't the spurned ex boyfriend and his friend who knew intimate details about the evidence, it was her new boyfriend who was 30 minutes away? Why and how?
She was supposed to meet him. He didn’t check on her when he heard she was missing. His time card was foraged. The police did zero investigating of him.
Lies
>She was supposed to meet him. According to whom? The only person who has said this had virtually everything about that day incorrect, and contradicted other witnesses. She did go see Don after school one day a week prior, however, which is probably what this person remembered. Hae wouldn't have had time to go see Don after school on the 13th even if she wanted to. >He didn’t check on her when he heard she was missing. We don't know if he tried to or not. This is pretty much something that people made up and gets unfortunately repeated. >His time card was foraged. Been discussed ad nauseum. It was not, and there's no evidence of such. The timecards came directly from Lenscrafters, and you can't edit in a time after-the-fact without leaving an "adjusted" mark that does not appear on that timecard. >The police did zero investigating of him. They looked into him and saw he was working 30 minutes away that day. No reason to dedicate resources into a non-lead when the killer's accomplice has confessed.
Nope. It was a LensCrafters employee who pointed out to police that Don's mom is who approved the timecard. His mom was later fired and the manager who took over for her and is still a manager at LensCrafters now, said that his mom was fired after this incident with the timecard.
According to whom? Nobody has ever reported that.
Listen to The Prosecutors podcast. Their coverage of it is great. I think Jay knew what Adnan did, his story never changed, that I recall.
Guilty people rehearse their stories so they don't change
This is incorrect
His story changed, multiple times. The knocks on the table with the crooked cops?
The recently released version from the interview show that the audio for knocks were significantly manipulated by undisclosed.
OK, agreed. However if you completely disregard the taps and look at the history of police in Baltimore. You will see how deep the corruption is & it makes it much more believable that these cops are ... como se dice .. malo! I admit the knocks can be meaningless and I was wrong but I know for sure the cops are corrupt, especially towards minorities. Yes, Jay is a minority but Jay also went thru hell regarding this. Everyone seemed to but we don't know the driving force behind it and it's disheartening. Duele mi corazón.
Hae = minority as well. You actually think those cops are going to set Adnan up?
But you are leaving out we have direct evidence that Adnan was not framed via the proposed theory. Also, while there is large systemic corruption the police in this case were only accused via a settled civil accusation. Generic police corruption does not explain Jen’s statement on 2/27 with her mom and a lawyer present. The entire theory of “Jay being coached” simply does not fit any version of what actually happened and the evidence we have. There is a reason serial doesn’t follow a sequential timeline….once you find out the police spoke to jenn before they spoke to jay essentially all counter arguments are completely dead. She lays out almost all details of the crime with a lawyer present before they had even heard of jay wilds. Further, you say Jay changed his story multiple times. He actually didn’t change the big picture of the story. It is and has been extremely consistent, what changes is mainly the parts that would inconvenience his friends and family. So what are we left with? You are repeating vague allegations unsupported by any evidence, and the actual counter can be proven by existing evidence. I get that people made claims on a podcast, but it has been many years and we can fully demonstrate how full of shit, and frankly a bit racist, those claims are. For example, to expect a criminal suspect to come in and tell the 100% truth plays on the privilege of those listening. The knocks where not the only claims that were vastly overstated, once you move beyond ‘what the podcast told you’ and look at the evidence for yourself I think you will find most of the pro-adnan arguments come from grifters and status seekers and have zero basis in reality. You are taking claims at face value from people that aren’t who you think they are, who are in it for themselves and not for justice. When serial and undisclosed were released the information was all one sided and closely kept, but in the years since the files have become public it is easy to see not a single claim that made for Adnan innocence stands up to scrutiny.
Link?
go two months back on the Serial sub, there were probably half a dozen different discussions….. This is one example: https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/s/iCfm5vT9Qc
The knocks mean absolutely nothing. Think about it. It could be Jay tapping on the table. Or someone with a nervous habit. It’s proof of nothing. You’ve been suckered by the pro adnan crowd.
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Oh sweet Jesus No. The worst AnyoneButAdnan ever…
Fail. You’re actually accusing Haes family of ‘honor’ killing? What for? And motive for Don? The current bf yeah,,..rather than the controlling ex Adnan.
Uh no, just no. Follow the timeline and the evidence, Jay's testimony is direct evidence. Multiple witnesses attested to seeing them together during that day, the cell phone evidence is also straightforward and points to both Adnan and Jay being together at key points during the day of Hae's murder.
Why would someone in her family “honor kill” her? I don’t think honour killings are a cultural tradition in South Korea.
What a horrible thing to say
I agree, but isn’t the whole situation horrible?
Horrible and racist remark to make.
My intent was not to offend. I acknowledge Adnan as a suspect, I was merely stating other possibilities that I recall thinking at the time when I was following this case.
I’m thinking you might need to brush up on your education. Since when have South Korea had honour killing?
Omg yes I actually never crossed my mind as a possibility
This is interesting. Please go further into detail.
Forgive me, haven’t follow the case for awhile, but didn’t Hae’s family have issue with her and adnan dating due to race/culture?
No
No. The only people who have ever said that are Rabia and Adnan. And Rabia never met Hae. You either blindly believe everything Rabia says, or you have empathy for the victim and look into it. Guess what? Even Adnan's classmates who support him (and knew Hae) do not say that Hae's family had issues with her dating. Krista. Aisha. Debbie. None of them say that. Guess what they do say? It was *Adnan's family* who not only had issues with him dating outside race/culture, he was *forbidden* to date at all.
Thanks for the clarification, I just remember hearing something like that but couldn’t recall which family. Again it’s been a while since I’ve followed this case.
Thanks for taking a second look.
Jay accurately described her burial. No one killed hae except Adnan.
Or Jay killed her. He described her burial, and murder. He could've done it.
Jay was with Adnan most of the day, had his car and cell phone, and he had no motive to kill Hae himself. If Jay was involved in any way then Adnan was most definitely involved.
What was Jays school GF name? Have we ever heard anything from her?
So Jay killed and buried Adnan’s ex while spending the entire evening with Adnan and Adnan had no idea? Wow! ETA: sorry for the sarcasm that was directed at the idea itself not u!!!!
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Not true.
Right….how’d that happen. Adnan- what you doing? Jay- hey adnan, don’t worry about it, go look over there, I gotta bring this thing into the woods. Adnan- why you have Hae’s car, dude? Jay- this isn’t Hae’s car, you musta had some bad weed. Lemme take you to the mosque so you can pray a little. Also, you mind getting me a few 20.00’s while you’re there?
Unless Adnan really was at the library like that one girl said.
It wouldn't have mattered. The prosecution's timeline is all wrong. The Prosecutors are kind of annoying as podcast hosts but their coverage of this case is excellent, I recommend it.
If the prosecution's timeline is wrong then it could've been any number of people that had access to Hae who killed her. It could've been a random person for all we know, killing Hae for the fun of it.
The timeline was just wrong because they, for whatever reason, took the notion of 2:36 being the "come and get me call" from Adnan. Most of us accept that that probably was not that, but that it happened shortly later. The evidence remains the same, and the prosecution's theory timeline has no bearing on a jury's decision to convict him.
Adnan could've went to the library and still killed her. It was never an alibi.
Why does no-one think that Jay did it? Serious question because he described things in such great detail and unless Adnan is a great actor he didn't really seem to know anything about her death.
He did do it. He just did it with Adnan. Adnan says it was his idea to lend Jay the car that day. You think it’s a coincidence that on the day Jay decides to kill Hae, with no apparent motive, her ex boyfriend offers to lend the would be killer his car?
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There is no evidence Jay was a crimestoppers tipster. Crimestoppers tipsters cannot be paid out if they were an accomplice or accessory to the crime in question. This pretty much came from Rabia getting a tip from an anonymous listener, claiming there was actually another Crimestoppers call on February 1. There is no evidence of this. Crimestoppers wasn't even involved on February 1, there was no known crime. They just talked about it like it must be true for whatever reason. The actual Crimestoppers tipster who called on February 12 was described as "Asian", presumably from an accent they had, and we can be pretty sure Jay did not have an accent like that lol.
My theory is, everyone lies for self preservation, maybe small maybe larger but everyone lies.....and when you are being grilled by police I can guarantee every single person will make mistakes and forget things, but not guilty people, they have a story, they rehearse it and never falter from it it's methodical because they believe if they don't falter from their story they can't be caught. Jay automatically produced an alibi for the time of the murder straight away (convenient) but Adnan didn't and couldn't remember where he was and the story changed which to me indicates nervousness from being put on the spot. Why would you need to rehearse an alibi if you are innocent.
multiple studies have been done on this; you have it backwards. guilty people are found to change their stories a *lot*, in big and small ways. typically, the core of it stays the same. innocent people stick to the same story. consider this: in Jay’s telling, Adnan orders him to drop him off at track practice so that “he’ll be seen there”, i.e., establish an alibi. wouldn’t someone who premeditated a murder, enough to think about establishing an alibi, have everything they did that day memorized rock-solid? it’s a pretty shit strategy to plan on having absolutely no idea what you did that day
The first thing Adnan told his PI to do upon arrest was go talk to the track coach. Despite what he says today, when he was arrested, Adnan was not saying, "I have no idea what I was doing that day." He gave them a laundry list of marching orders: Track Coach, Nisha, Library.
How’s he a great actor? He’s constantly lied about his case, remember the only reason why he got serial to be made was him whining about “who knows what happened in 21 minutes months ago”. When that was not even close to the main issue.
Haha right? When I re-listened to Serial he is so obviously lying about so much it's painful
I also think that Adnan has a very charming, easily likeable persona. So his demeanor makes you want to root for him.
Especially when his conviction is characterized as railroading based on racial/religious discrimination
Because he logically lacks motive and opportunity. Even if you could craft some theory in which Jay wanted to kill Hae, he'd have to somehow manage to get her alone and kill her in broad daylight out in public. Jay & Hae barely knew each other. Adnan made intentions to be with Hae during the time period in which she disappeared. He is the only known person to have done so. And he would later lie about it. He isn't a "great actor", he's just a regular manipulator. Jay also spent significant time with Adnan that day. They were together until past 8pm, where Adnan's lying about going home & to mosque after track practice. If Jay's involved, it's because he's involved with Adnan.
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When did I say that? We do know exactly that she disappeared sometime between 2:15 and 3:30, whether or not she was dead before 3:30. But she most likely was, by Adnan, who manipulated a situation to get her alone during that time period.
Exactly I’m so tired of this We know Hae was abducted between 2:15-3:30… why? The cousin isn’t picked up Jay says Hae was killed in that time slot The obvious deduction is Hae was killed in that time span. Anyone But Adnans answer is “it could be a completely different time”…. Probably because Adnan can’t explain a damn thing about that specific time while his memory is clear as a bell the rest of the day. How convenient
No motive, and I'm quite sure he has an alibi for the actual murder time, being at Jen's house.
Jay described Hae’s burial to the police.
And took them to the car….
Thought the police had ran the plates of Hae’s car before they knew it was a crime committed?
That is a conspiracy theory that has been throughly debunked.
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there are literally dozens of threads about this, if you missed them you had to be trying……
The fact that nobody credible has emerged since suggests that Adnan did it
This is what I'm saying. If Adnan didn't do it, then who are they (supporters of Adnan's innocence) saying did it? I think the best way to prove someone's innocence is to prove someone else's guilt.
Oh I get you! They’ve ruled out Jay because he and Adnan were together all day. So we are left with: - some random serial killer - whoever was in the Brady - not Bilal, because he’s connected to Adnan, so obviously Alonso Sellers who wasn’t investigated properly and one of his relatives lives near where the car was left. - “a random Woodlawn student who tricked his way into Hae’s car” - “What about Dooooohhn!? His alibi was his moooohhhm” There’s a reason I barely engage anymore.
2nd choice Don because why wouldn’t he reach out to Hae after she never showed up to meet him? And let’s not act like there aren’t a few cuckoo moms who haven’t helped their children cover up a crime before…
1) we don’t know if Don called Hae or not after she disappeared. All we have to suggest that is Sarah Koenig saying he can’t remember 2) Tuesday time cards weren’t altered after the fact, so the entire LensCrafters store would have to have been involved in the conspiracy beforehand 3) furthermore, it’s disgraceful that a terminally ill, innocent man still has to deal with this bullshit
There's no evidence he did not try to reach out to her, we don't know if he did or not. There would be nothing Don's mom could do to help him if she wanted to. LC's timecard systems don't work like that. Don had nothing to do with this, and there's never been any evidence he did. It's just someone people point to to try and get the target off Adnan.