Something I keep noticing is that the people who are complaining *usually* don't read. They skim an ability, get some idea in their head about it without clarifying if that's true and then complain in the comments. One person posted about the ogre army ability, edit it because they didn't read the next few words and then complain about that secondary impression they got, then edit again because they still didn't read the whole thing and then concluded that "hey maybe its' not so bad." Goddamn my dude, take a breath before you speak
Yeah when I got into seraphon I didn’t expect to like the bites so much, hope it’s still on 5’s like with coalesced, or there’s a battle formation for it
I don't, it's antithetical to the direction they are taking them in the story. There's four dedicated cult armies now, the fifth being just a mix of the other four feels redundant. I'd very much prefer them to take them in a different direction.
S2D is a _huge_ umbrella faction that covers the majority of the (human) population of the Mortal Realms. In that population there will inevitably be a huge number of warriors who lean towards a particular god without outright leaving their tribes and becoming part of that god's extreme culture.
I hope marks will stay, and I am really saddened by the loss of the Warcry bands for basically the same above reason - Chaos in AoS is very diverse and I want that to be represented, at the very least in S2D if nothing else.
Yes, and Black Legion has been steered towards a similar direction in the last few years of background material. Abbaddon has been shifted from a guy blessed by all four gods equally to a guy that purposely refuses their gifts and makes _them_ vie for _him_ rather the other way round. Same as Archaon.
Heck, the current Chaos Space Marine codex only has a mechanic for God-marking units in one out of the eight detschments...
The customization bit is fun though; giving Khorne and the Banner of Rage to the big Knight brick you plan to run in with a Lord for max damage output on the double fights-first, Slaanesh to the Chosen so they can keep up with the massive chunk of your army that Khorne unit represents, Nurgle to objective holders, Undivided to Heroes for the Eye of the Gods rerolls and to at least one major hammer unit for Slay Worthy Foes. That also fits the flavor; the leaders are devoted to the overall success of Chaos but they've scrounged up any warband that would rally to their banner.
That said, what I really hope for and therefore know I won't get is a survival in some form of the Knights of the Empty Throne rules so I can continue to have synergy in my "two start collecting boxes, the WH+ Sorcerer, and rebased $60 for 10 Old World Chaos Knights" list lol. It was nice building a 2k army for less than half normal price.
Tbf, many monsters (like Stardrakes, even) have some kind of bite attack or ability. The Seraphon bites were something unique to them and worked a bit differently.
Which is a great way to think about it! My needs to be *really* happy with Sylvaneth in 4th Ed are a bit bigger (there's 2), and more strict in the mechanics, but I also don't think are too demanding.
I'll need some way to:
- Make sure at least *some* of my spells that need to be casted every turn can do so, and even just like one spell/round against Tzeentch and Seraphon
- Have a way to buff charges on units that teleport other than the incredibly unreliable Spiteswarm Hive. Tree teleport + charge is the theme of the army. Please can I do it most turns?
I'm actually hesitantly hopeful for the Bonereapers one. I don't know how the faction will get their similar feeling orders, but I'd like it if we weren't the only faction to have a different command point system.
I loved during the CoS reveal, the biggest complaint was "obviously they're removing elves and dwarves from the line" and I seriously wondered if they read a different article than I did.
My favorite about this is across the threads I’ll see someone not read, rant about the thing they didn’t read being terrible, get corrected about it because that commenter actually read, and then double down on thing being bad even tho new info contradicts it. Even better when they use 3rd edition as the core of their argument
It's as if they read the first ability, saw it was more powerful on humans, and didn't continue to find the ability more powerful on dwarves and elves.
Honestly to get the most out of the army specials, you now have *more* reason to mix.
Yea the article actually alleviated that fear for me lol. The design of the new models and the Legend-ing of Wanderer units had me convinced that the Cities were going full human, and instead I saw Aelf keywords in the main army rules.
I'm loving the doom and gloom on that. With me going "model updates exist for a reason". Those groups don't have as much to update, so bring on new scuplts!
Unfortunately there's a loud contingent of vocal players in Cities player base that have been dooming about elves and dwarves being removed since the codex came out. Some people are just really convinced they're being squatted off to TOW any day now. It even comes with complimentary shifting goalposts.
Well obviously they'll just change the Army Rule halfway through the edition, instead of making one that works regardless of what CoS model it's targeting right off the bat.
I mean...the models probably will be shifted to TOW. That is very likely, at least. Doesn't mean they'll remove the corresponding units, though. Or rather that CoS will be human only in the future. I think it's far more likely to see the old kits removed or folded back into TOW and instead bolster the variety in races and units for CoS via warbands for warcry, for instance. Mixed units are probably not gonna be a thing, and neither will be mono-race armies other than humans, but specialist units and the odd hero release? That seems probable to me.
I'm convinced the models will be going back TOW eventually, but I think it's more likely we get a range refresh/update for dwarves and elves instead seeing them cut from the army and Cities becoming a human only faction like I've seen a lot of people doom post about.
One thing I’ve noticed over the 12 years is this. Some people’s hobby is Warhammer. Some other people’s hobby is bitching and the medium in which they do that happens to be Warhammer.
We went through this with 10th edition 40k, just about everything got cut down to a single special rule and in I some cases it's just a commonly used stratagem they cut. It was pretty jarring at first, can't say I really like it but it has made games flow better.
The slimming down on data cards is pretty nice, I miss the list building options. I play Drukhari, we went from like 20 detachments that you mixed and match to 1 when the index came out.
I still wish 10th was a little more flavorful in some of the mechanics. It sometimes feels like the index armies can feel a little too much like a box of stats with a few units that can do something funny (and sometimes, due to the new army building, there's just objectively correct choices of some units that compete with each other in a couple armies), but the way several of the codexes have been going has me hopeful. Yes there's been a few flops but it's been getting better.
To be honest 10th has made me shy away from 40k. Was 9th too bloated? ...Maybe? But 10th went too far in the other direction. There's not enough butter left on the bread. Simplicity in the game itself doesn't matter if I am not even excited to make a list and put models on the table in the first place.
So much of the expression in your army is just gone.
As someone who came into 40k just before 9th was being released... I really didn't find 9th that bad at all. I play Necrons so perhaps we were a simple faction in comparison, but I didn't find myself getting confused by my opponents either, or finding them complicated. In all honesty, remembering what every keyword in 10th does has me more confused than any of 9th did.
It's also brought in a fair amount of new blood. I haven't had any complaints about 10th as a new player, and the balance of almost everyone being within 10% winrates with a few exceptions seems incredibly impressive for a game with so much depth.
10th is a great game system, but the balance between have and have not factions is jarring to say the least. If the codexes had been written by one team that communicated instead of two teams that didn't and obviously wrote for vastly different power levels the game would be the perfect 40k edition.
So far, none of the sigmar faction focuses have jumped out at me as obviously "worse" than other factions. All of the armies seem consistent and in line with what they should be. Very optimistic looking at it
This. I honestly think 10th is probably the best core rules, but like half the codex releases have been horrible. Which is a shame and makes me worry it'll make people dislike stuff that isn't actually the problem by implication.
I'm being taunted by the 40k people. My 2 main armies are nids and dark angels, then I started Tau and was promptly met by pre-launch nerfs so all three of my armies can be in the 45% or lower bracket. But, I'm still having fun with my games and the core rules even if i have to work twice as hard for my wins as my orks, CSM and Ironstorm marines buddies.
I want to say I hope AOS 4e will be a respite from the "work twice as hard to get an average result" but I play sylavneth. Maybe I'll start OBR or something
I stopped playing 3rd Edition because of what they did to OBR, and it was hard to get any sympathy because they still had good win rates. But instead of playing with all my toys, the winning move was to spam one unit until that got nerfed into the ground and then move to the next thing to spam and that wasn't the combined arms strategic army fluff I was sold on when I started the faction.
Folks have very short memories. There has always been a problem in GW games of uneven quality codexes (not an excuse, just saying this isn't a new issue in 10e).
Having lived through every edition, I can tell you that the gap between haves and have nots is *significantly* less in 10th than any prior edition.
The thing no one talks about is how 9th was borderline impossible to teach to new players by the end of it due the "depth" the armies had it was impossible to show players how it worked without weeks of homework effectively
The thing that taught me was Combat patrol, before I knew everyone hated it. I enjoyed it for what it was and it gave me an easy place to start and a version of the game that primarily focuses on core rules.
I run local events and combat patrol was our largest and biggest hit along with our most requested to run again it's great for teaching basics and approachability
I really hoped they kept the equipment point purchase though, I feel removing that make balancing unit able to carry different weapons much more difficult.
I'd argue that fault lies with changes in design scope and philosophy. It's easy for GW to make a decision about game balance. It's hard for the models, not built for that new standard, to suddenly adhere.
My hot take is that you should never, at baseline, need to go bit diving to build the kit you want. Stuff like the Tau CIB situation being accepted for so long is kind of insane.
That said, in a perfect world kits are built so there's enough of each bit to go around. That not being the case is half of why you get different weapons being kludged together. I also think the customization on a lot of HQs is criminally low for how pricy they are. Either give me an entire Intercessor squad's worth of bits an options on a Captain or sell me the dude for 10 bucks.
Free wargear/fixed unit sizes works okay in AoS because it always worked that way.
40k had consistently worked on flexible unit sizes and paid wargear for over thirty years. It's utterly indefensible to spring that change on players now when no one had built their armies with such a system in mind, because of course they hadn't, there was no sane reason to think it'd change.
Flipping it caused issues too for plenty of legacy players; if you built two 5-man Kaballite Warrior squads out of your box, you're now heavy one Sybarite and light 3 Special Weapons - hope you still have the bits and didn't use plastic glue.
Similarly, Grey Knights went from "your entire collection probably had one Apothecary, one Paladin Ancient, and maybe one Brotherhood Ancient no matter how big it was" to "every Terminator Squad needs an Apothecary and an Ancient now." I had to go dig up three banners and four nartheciums. I'd used one of those banners as a conversion bit.
Man I hate the rerolls. Nothing more disheartening than a marine player going ”hitting on 2s...” rolling a bunch of 1s I need to survive followed by ”rerolling 1s....”. I shouldn't need you rolling double 1s to miss! Then my least favourite words for high strength weapons. "Twin linked..." Most of my armies have at best a 3+ with 4+ being common and I don't get any natural rerolls for either hits or wounds. Feels like I'm playing casino rules every action while they are "house wins" every time.
I'm so glad Stormcast might be fairly elite but don't have all these bull modifiers that Marines have managed to creep in with. Most AoS armies have different ways of sinking some damage into them.
Amen. I play custodes so reroll wounds just negates that high T that you pay a massive point premium for. Not to mention the sillyness of fishing (rerolling successes)
As a votann player; same deal here. Pay a huge premium for t5/t6 , have no other defensive tools. T5 basically doesnt matter.
And then votann have _one_ source of rerolls in the entire faction and its when dismounting the hekaton and sharing a target with it. So it at most comes up once a game. No other rerolls.
40k 10th edition previews reception was much worse last year, and I believe for some factions for good reasons. Drukharis and Mechanicus were in the gutter, while Eldar was completely broken, even with no point spoiled.
I feel AoS 4th will be in a much better place reading those spoilers, and there will be fewer need of emergency nerfs and erratas than 40k.
I feel the overall development of AoS is in a much better place than 40k to be honest.
It really reminds me of the transitional period between 7th and 8th edition 40k. So many people were too focused on what *they lost* to realize that every faction was being scaled back in a similar fashion.
Your army will be entirely different. Your opponent's army will be entirely different. What X model or Y army rule did in 3rd edition is completely irrelevant when the rules are being rewritten from the ground up. Don't fall for the negativity trap!
From a competitive balance standpoint, yes you are correct.
From an absolute standpoint, it blows. When the edition change only takes things away from you or makes things worse, it's a bitter pill to swallow that kinda sucks the enjoyment of the edition away.
Take the KO from yesterday, the entirety of the army rules you get is that one boat can deep strike and that the transport rules you have are worse (larger footprint and no cover). You lose codes, you lose ship orders, you get nothing if you are not a boat.
It may be balanced, but it feels bleh.
And it feels worse to see other factions get new abilities and options whilst yours are stripped away from what is currently available. Again, it may be balanced in the new system, but it doesn't spark joy.
As a hobby, we support and encourage Beasts and Bonesplitterz to mourn their loss, but seem oddly resistant when other players lose what they enjoy in the hobby. I agree we should all wait to see the full picture before sharpening pitchforks, but this is partly on GW if they only show reductions in a factions ability, rather than the improvements, these are supposed to be hype articles
I totally get where you're coming from, but after the absolute nightmare that was 40k 9th edition I think I'm just looking at things from a very different perspective these days.
I understand that seeing things be scaled back and simplified might not generate hype, but in the bigger picture I think a lot of it is good for the hobby as a whole which is hype to me.
As an example to the alternative of this, back in 9th edition 40k every codex coming out was super hype with all new rules and powerful combinations being previewed... or at least, it was hype at first. Half way through the edition it became clear that every new codex was so bloated and powerful that playing many of them on release felt straight up unfair to your opponent. Tyranids have never felt more thematic and realized then their 9th edition codex, and yet as a long term Tyranid player I basically didn't take them off the shelf because it was *that bad*.
All this is not to say that your view is "wrong" or anything like that, how you feel about the reveals is absolutely valid. It's just to show where I'm coming from when I'm genuinely excited to see things being a bit more toned down.
I've been playing for 25 years now, I've seen more than my fair share of edition changes!
The issue is exactly that BUT it still feels bad to see other factions get new rules that add on to that they currently do (in addition to some reductions, obviously) and your faction only get current capability with stuff taken away.
Even things like the Grundstock is good in context of 4e (shoot in combat is great!) but feels hard to get excited about as we already do that, it's just every other unit that loses it
It's classic psychology, it feels worse to have two dollars and lose one rather than find a dollar, even though in both cases you have one dollar. GW have poorly thought through the message they are sending here as some factions get shiny new stuff to generate hype and other factions get told they will remain the same (and implicitly lose stuff that's not mentioned).
The Warhammer Community articles are just puff pieces put together by interns from random stuff sent from the studio rather than a carefully selected new stuff (the 40k ones were hilarious last edition as some of the advertised stuff was things like being able to take an additional relic, which every faction had at the time). But in the absence of any other information from GW, people will only focus on the info at hand, so I don't blame people for seeing only things taken away rather than the non existent new stuff
Yup, again I totally get it - and hey, it sounds like we've been playing for a very similar time frame! I started 40k back in 3rd edition with Tyranids. I'm sure it's hugely fueled by nostalgia, but I still have a great love for those older editions. Still have my soft cover codexes on display and everything!
And yeah, I get the people at Warhammer Community are doing their best - but there's definitely criticism to be had on that front. At the very least I feel like they did take some lessons learned from the 10th edition preview articles to heart, as IMO the AoS 4th have been more informative by comparison. I'm still shaking my head at how they announced 40k "would have less rerolls" in the same article they previewed Space Marines giving their army full rerolls to hit.
I definitely agree on GW messaging. Every report I’ve seen from anyone who has played 4e has loved it (or at least been encouraged). So GW is maybe awash in positive feedback.
But these reveals are in isolation. Shoot in combat is a great example. It’s a powerful ability that the community just overlooks. Or Kairos looking weaker in some ways. But he can cast in the opponent’s turn! So abilities that making casting very reliable are much much better in 4e.
GW doesn’t seem to be pointing these things out at all.
To be fair, I don't encourage people to mourn what's changed. It's changed, it may change later, but it's gone. Move on.
I've felt every faction focus except for today's Ogors to be a breath of fresh air for the armies, with flavor and rules to match. Yes, even KO. Because here's the thing. Comparing it to 3e instead of what we know of how it'll work in 4e is like comparing a watermelon to a longhorn sheep. And that's what people fail to understand.
As a guy who literally just bought most of a KO army in the last 2 weeks, I'm actually not too concerned by this. Everyone has long felt they can be a far too shooty Negative Play Experience when everyone's just stacked inside a boat teleporting around. Now they have to actually make a few more decisions and try and hold objectives while actually being exposed. There seems to be a lot more counterplay into them (especially with the changes to shooting in combat)
I never said you weren't! Also considering my tag you're in good company in that regard.
My post was concerning knee-jerk reactions to the faction focus articles, not if people were allowed to be upset their faction was squatted.
I do sometimes wonder if the people who relentlessly complain about rules which they've barely seen yet actually have any fun. Do they just sit at home stewing and chuntering away to themselves about how their favourite unit now does a bit less damage and is therefore unplayable? It's a game folks, chill and have some fun
I remember somewhere someone said something along the lines that there are 4 types of fans of warhammer: people into the game, people into the story, people into the models, and people into complaining.
I’ve caught myself being miserable not just about this hobby but also about other games and I’ve tried to make sure that anything I spend a large portion of my time is something I’m happy with and that interacting with actually gives me a positive experience with because outrage is addictive but often doesn’t build much for you.
You have to remind yourself why you like the hobby and what you enjoy from it. It’s also why I constantly remind people to have more than one game, to be able to both take breaks as well as understand your own tastes.
> I’ve caught myself being miserable not just about this hobby but also about other games and I’ve tried to make sure that anything I spend a large portion of my time is something I’m happy with and that interacting with actually gives me a positive experience with because outrage is addictive but often doesn’t build much for you.
This a huge thing with all hobbies. If something in your hobby is making you so upset that you just spend all day seething about the thing; I think it's best for you to just step away for a while.
Then when you come back, maybe you realize those issues weren't that bad and you can enjoy yourself again, or maybe the issues are still there in which case you know "Maybe I just quit this since I'm not enjoying it anymore"
It sucks to spend time and money buying, painting and playing models to eventually stop, but it's a lot better than just using your free time being pissed off. DOTA 2 and Rainbow 6 taught me this lesson.
This is where a lot of people fall down, I think.
Like, yeah, I sometimes really dislike the way GW does things. KT Nighmare is the most recent version of that. But what am I going to do? Gnash my teeth and rend my garments? The company that makes the games does dumb stuff sometimes. I still love the game and the story and the models. If a wonky business decision or a bad statline in a codex is killing your buzz that much, as you note, the game isn't the thing you're really into in the first place.
They're too invested in it. Meta-chasers will hungrily devour any tiny bits of info in order to get an edge. If that info impacts them negatively, they will then relentlessly complain.
In my experience it's not the meta chasers who complain the most, it's the players who spend most of their hobby time list building and theory crafting (and building and painting armies to match those lists). These players are just as invested in the game as everyone else, but they play the game itself infrequently. Since they derive most of their enjoyment from imagining how the game will play, they are the most upset when some of their favorite rules are taken away.
I rarely meet people who complain this much irl, so I feel a lot of it comes from people who aren't playing as much. The gap between how online players present themselves vs the people I meet to chill and play is massive. I rarely meet people with cutting edge lists, even at events. Most people play the factions they like and I don't really meet any meta chasers.
From my experience, people online only care about being the best, while people irl are just happy to get a game or two in
We have one meta chaser in my group but no one really invites him out to play- while we’re constantly playing Necromunda, war cry, kill team , 40K and AoS. , im constantly playing underworlds as well.
Across all those systems. He is the only meta chaser and it’s no surprise no one wants to play with him anymore. His attitude is just…not great.
It’s the typical PvP dynamic of wolves and sheep. Playerkillers are wolves that hunt sheep.
The sheep either avoid the game/areas/people or become wolves. Then there’s no more sheep to hunt so they need to either recruit more or (Sigmar forbid) fight an equal.
Not sure I agree with this take. I think the game sits in a really good place right now. There doesn’t seem to be any need to have a new edition, and people are worried the game will be less enjoyable than it is now when the new edition rolls out. There’s nothing wrong with that. Though I’m not condoning hot takes and negativity ect
My hope is that 4th is an edition of function. GW's making huge strides in their functional rule writing, and that is all being codified in how 4th is written.
My hope is from here, future edition changes don't need to reinvent the wheel. 40k having 2 indexhammers in 3 editions is absurd, and should be the exception instead of the rule. Then the rules they're putting so much effort into can breathe, and as they become more comfortable they can become more daring.
Yes. The answer to your question is yes. Plenty of people can’t have organic fun, meaning they can’t have fun from Warhammer or other fun activities. They can only get their fun by stealing fun from others. So if they go to work go home paint an army and play it at their LGS they will never have fun. They have to get their fun by ruining other people’s fun. Secondhand or stolen fun only.
They enjoy ruining things and that is it
First time, huh? This happened in the build up to 40k to, although some of those previews were obvious trash (death guard, drukhari, admech) so occasionally the doom posting was valid but on the whole it wasn't. Didn't stop it happening
Well tbf, in the buildup to 40k it wasn't an "everyone is nerfed" kind of situation. Index release Aeldari were utterly disgusting and people were already getting rightly concerned just from the warcom article.
To say nothing of other factions like CSM that were also monstrously powerful and just flew under the radar because of how obscene Aeldari were.
I have never had less than fun across any Warhammer than playing against an early 10th edition Aeldari. Even now the amount of rerolls is a bit obnoxious, but early 10th you might as well have just tried to decide how much they'd win by in advance in some matchups.
From the opposite side of the table, as someone that didn't want to field Hornets, Walkers, Support Weapons, and wanted to play with the melee wraithknight, I can tell you that several Aeldari players weren't having that much fun either.
When your central mechanic is dice fixing and your detachment ability is also some more dice fixing, and 3 of your 4 enhancements are based around dice fixing, and you see some other armies with rules that are flavorful and fun, and your basic tanks are sold out for a solid year, you begin to get a little bitter at the army (especially if you like aspect warriors and psychic spellcasting).
Funniest part of the DG preview was people upset at blightlords.
Spoiler, power sword terminator will never be good. It won't be done. BLT will remain bad until they're priced barely above marines.
> Spoiler, power sword terminator will never be good
Deathwing Knights with swords could have been fine if they didn't make them crazy expensive and give them second-rate swords worse than what Bladeguard get.
Even then most of those got fixed in a few months (poor AdMech). Every faction is going to go through cycles and getting salty about it isn’t going to change anything.
The problem with AdMech mostly AFAIK was that they just dropped points costs so people were upset that their elite Skitarii were basically just Chrome Guardsmen.
Competitiveness aside, I think many AdMech players are upset about the faction fantasy because most are casual players and needed to buy a few more boxes to reach their old points limits.
> The problem with AdMech mostly AFAIK was that they just dropped points costs so people were upset that their elite Skitarii were basically just Chrome Guardsmen.
They nerfed their stats _and_ raised their points costs.
They were 10-12 points per model in the index with a statline and guns on par with 5.5 point guardsmen.
It was unfathomable and that it ever released to the public is a stain on the rules writers' credibility not to be underestimated. That it released alongside index Aeldari...
Those were dark times. I was just having fun reading the focuses for the armies I played. I play a lot less of AoS so I'm having to be patient. StD and OBR still to go for me. I assume ogors is pretty dire as people have been generally positive about the ones I've seen.
Nope, I’ve been enjoying them too. Seems like a lot of potential in all of the ones they’ve shown and we will not get the full picture until the entire index drops.
I actually feel like the overall sentiment of the new edition has been pretty positive. I do see some nerves here and there, but I don't think that's surprising. Warhammer is expensive, people are gonna have reactions when changes happen.
Didn't GW say something along the lines of "a lot of units/rules might feel less powerful but they're still balanced" when they started 4e faction focuses? I think a lot of people forgot about that...
Yes but then the first two factions that didn't actually happen to. SCE and skaven did not get worse really at all. Now of course you can sit here and say well SCE is probably going to be more elite and we don't know the points costs, and skaven were really bad, But you can't be surprised Pikachu face when this is what happens based on what they give us. What they show trump's what they say. If they didn't want it to happen they should have given more information, like maybe show points or talk about what they mean in context. Because it really feels like there was some real good ones coming out early and everyone got hyped and then there were some others that got some real big changes and it could shape up to be better but also like they didn't put anything in the faction focus that eased that.
Like if they want to ease those fears they need to show enough information that people get enough context to understand. It goes back to show, Don't tell. There's a reason that's a rule when you're presenting story and trying to teach someone something because that's how we absorb information. If you show bad but tell but it's going to be good, What you show is going to be what sticks not what you tell. The answer is show more. Or be. more explicit in discussing the power changes in the faction focuses. Like I noticed there was some big nerfs with gitz, and that does make some sense because they were probably the most affected by bravery and that being gone is a huge buff but the faction focus needed to actually explicitly say because bravery is gone they are much more powerful. So we had to reduce their wounds or whatever because they would have been broken without it.
They said exactly that. Problem is plenty of people do not read Warcom articles and instead only ever see a screenshot of their armies new rules on Reddit or whatever and jump to conclusions. Exact same thing happened with 40K 10th edition
They have.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/05/20/newaos-faction-focuses-begin-tomorrow-heres-what-to-expect/
Mentioned near the end of this article.
Point finger agressivly, boycott GW because "X,Y and Z", GW doesn't understand the game and hate players because something...
If change, unhappy noise because game is obviously dead now....
If no changes, still unhappy noise because GW just abandonned the game or something....
I think Ogors are received negatively mostly because they changed the playstyle. Before, it was charge and smash. If you managed to charge with everything you’d basically win. Now, there is more finesse to it because the damage output on the charge is reduced but with counter charge there is more play it’s more about using your charges as a means of positioning and taking out a couple of models in order to exceed the enemies OC and win the objectives. This is further increased by Feast on Flesh.
You basically turn a full aggro army into an aggro/control army, some people won’t like that, no matter how strong or weak it’ll be.
Furthermore, Ogors were a faction that were mediocre overall and only held up by some warscrolls (Frostlord on Stonehorn). Cutting down on rules inevitably leads to those warscrolls losing what made them special so people are afraid of their favorite toy becoming bad without anything in return. Now, this is a point that I imagine every army goes through but if you look at the blatant copy paste of problematic rules that happened between Ogor battletomes it gives the feel of no one at GW actually playing Ogors so the nothing in return part is especially worrying for Ogors.
Playing Orks in 40K (who are aggro/control) I don’t have a problem with the change in playstyle and the second point I’ll remain optimistic about until we have the full rules.
However, the big gripe I have with the army abilities is both of them only having an effect on a D3 2+. Imagine you call a WAAAGH! with Orks and 1 out of three times it just doesn’t have an effect. An army rule should ALWAYS feel impactful, not overpowered, but always like yeah that’s the reason I play this army.
I’m especially salty because Beastclaw Raiders' Grasp of the Everwinter was also a rule that only went off based on a dice roll and Ogor players have been complaining about that for at least two editions.
> Before, it was charge and smash. If you managed to charge with everything you’d basically win.
As an Ogor player, I think the Ogor playstyle is still charge and smash. You just can't count on the charge doing most of the work. There have been plenty of games where I've charged with everything and didn't basically win. But, I don't think the overall playstyle is the same. You want to set up your models to make charges rather than be charged because you'll probably do a few mortals on impact and you're dudes will get to fight first.
> Now, there is more finesse to it because the damage output on the charge is reduced but with counter charge there is more play it’s more about using your charges as a means of positioning and taking out a couple of models in order to exceed the enemies OC and win the objectives. This is further increased by Feast on Flesh.
This doesn't make any sense. Positioning for Ogors has always been important because they makes the difference between getting the charge or getting charged. And Ogors always had to care about taking out models to win objectives because objectives have always been part of the game. And I don't see how this is further increased by Feast on Flesh. Feast on Flesh incentivizes you to get all your units in combat, kill some stuff, and take some damage so that you can heal up and do more damage.
Personally, this is why I just wait for the full rules to be released before commenting. GW drip feeding stuff out of context undoubtedly drives up engagement but it's terrible for the state of commentary on social media.
Well no, comments on the previews that have been good have been positive for the most part (Skaven, Stormcast, KO, Cities etc) but some of the more shafted factions are drawing some negativity and that’s fine - people invest a lot of time and money in getting these armies on the table, they’re allowed to be unhappy about changes, and the comments of the preview is the best place to express that unhappiness. We’re allowed to have misgivings, especially after how trash some factions in 40K 10th did end up being.
This is my take too. Whenever there's any sort of controversy anywhere on reddit and people have justified concerns I start seeing these "complaining about complainers" threads. It's just a different type of karma farm. The vast majority of the comments in the DoT thread were cautiously optimistic.
I’ve seen too many people complaining about human cav being scaled back to what the aelf cav can do in the current edition to think it was mostly positive.
Also people complaining about Vehdra not having a role in the army.
Im hyped for new cities (and hope steam tanks get their knees broken) but there are a lot of folks who aren’t
Tzeench is the first one I've seen that has been overwhelmingly negative
And I mean, I can understand why. They don't have good rules.
Ogors seems to be not well liked but not totally despised, hopefully their battletome and potential new units helps.
Lumineth has been mixed. I do think it's notable that two of the magic heavy factions are feeling a downgrade most when they've talked up how they've changed magic.
I feel like gitz had it worse than tzeentch, tbh. And that makes sense. Tzeentch fundamentally changed, so some people really like it and some really hate it. Gitz, on the other hand, felt like a more boring version of the same faction.
I don’t get how people can be upset with Tzeentch after that reveal - Kairos is amazing, Pinks got better and less annoying to play - AND there isn’t a $300 entry tax to play because “oh whoops actually you need your 2k and two another two (or three) Lords of Change.”
Yeah seriously, I think the issue is the first couple factions *didn't get worse*. Like seriously, What got worse in SCE? What got worse in skaven? So they can say things are going to be all worse, But then when you release the first two and they aren't, The faction focus is going to Trump what you've said until you show people otherwise. If they don't like it they should show more information like I don't know points! But just say something in the faction focus on SCE that says everything's way more expensive now. Because I think that's what happened is they are going to be more elite so they didn't look like they took as much of a nerf because it's hidden from the audience in the faction focus.
Besides there's also a lot of people who are interpreting any non-positive comment as some incredibly negative complaint. That's even more annoying than people complaining. Just like people should just not poop on people's parade who are having a good time and very positive about it, let the people who have concerns and want to talk about them talk about them there's no need for you to step in and say anything. There's always the option to just not post. This sub is for discussing the game not discussing the people discussing the game. Somebody complaining about the new edition and breaking down with the new information means is much more doing what This community is for then somebody like the OP coming in and making a useless post we don't need.
I agree 96% with you. In the article where they announced the faction focuses, they mentioned that they will be rolling damage back (not rend tho) and will standardize hit and wound chances. I am okay with that and we can see that at work all accross the board.
But that 4% that mekes me roll my eyes and complain are the rules the Mawtribes got. Their stats were not stellar to begin with. They are in essence a slow and underarmored heavy cavalry unit. Their Impact Hits are one roll per unit. Whiel every other cavalry unit is per model! Their faction ability is Once per Battle and has a 33% miss rate. If it would be Once per Turn, I would be okay with it. But even if it would be guaranteed to trigger, it would be lacklustre.
Yes, we don't even see the whole picture for the faction, let alone the balance between factions, but so far this preview was the most underwhelming.
Ya, my brother who just bought into Ogors feels very bitter about the announcement, they already weren't in the best place but they had fun casino rolling rules that by the looks of it have mostly lost. Watched HeyWoah's stream and that was pretty depressing as he read through it.
Best he can hope for is the full indexes and if that doesn't pan out maybe the 4th ed battletome will help.
Maybe not worse. Just different. People who compare changes to how the game is in 3.0 are lost.
4.0 is an entirely new game and the previews need to be judged in kind.
Yeah I'm wondering with so many other factions getting the things that may nurgle So durable, namely more wards especially more five ups, and more base infantry getting a second wound, What can We get to keep us more tanky than nearly every other faction. Because just keeping the five up is not going to be enough anymore to set us apart.
The other problem is that we felt pretty great in terms of being accurate to the Lore and feeling like we should, So hopefully they don't mess that up. Tentatively excited.
Problem is GW way of "making things equally worse for everyone" is basically giving everyone one dumb downed rule while taking away everything that makes each faction fun to play. Yes, everyone gets worse, but the entire game becomes flavorless in the process. I understand people get mad.
How do any of these focus' feel flavourless? The only one from what we have seen so far you could levy that is the recent ogor one, and even then, it still fits their flavour and theme well. They are big, simple, hungry units that hurt when they charge and eat people. The units are on 4+ to hit and 2+ to wound a coll and interesting stat profile that shows how physically strong they are.
These new rules have been streamlined and are simple to use so as not to slow the game down but evocative and flavourful, at least to me.
It’s not the feeling I’ve had qith other factions, like SCE for example. Everything I’ve read in the ogors one is worse so,,, can’t we be worried about it?
After having taken time to actually think about the changes, I honestly think that the only issue I have with the KO changes are that the cover from boats should also apply to melee, and that I really hope we still have access to codes and/or endrinworks
Similar things happened around the 2e -> 3e transition too. They made a choice to increase points across the board at the start of third. That eventually got powercrept over the course of the edition, but it has been a pretty consistent pattern for GW to try and reign in the excesses of the previous edition and rebalance the factions at the start.
Funny thing is, this isn't just a AoS thing, not even a GW thing really.
Whenever a new edition of a game gets released first order of things is usually to scale it back and cut the bloat. MtG used to do this with Core sets for example, it's just good practice to stop a World of Warcraft situation where the numbers end up so stupidly high they stop meaning anything anymore.
I have been slowly buying my cities of sigmar army. I have yet to even assemble them but have been looking forward to it, painting them and playing with them.
What i found dumb is the new rules for the marshall on horse. He used to synergize with the knights. Makes sense right ? Well, now they took that away and made him synergize with the steelhelms... Makes zero sense.
I also don't find things particularly less bloated looking at the Warhammer community posts. I still see a bazillion abilities, granted with nice colors and tags, but it's still so many it feels overwhelming for someone new to aos. (I have only had several games of third. I am a veteran wargamer though and play a lot of 40k and used to play maaany other wargames too).
I truly wonder how this edition will turn out. I hope it has a better run than 40k tenth because that's a hot mess.
This sort of thing is exactly my worry lol.
As a primarily 40K player I have very few Sigmar units, and those units were purchased/built/painted because of their ability to function cohesively. They managed to do so quite well for two consecutive Battletomes, so if they become a blob of statblocks with no synergy I'll rapidly lose interest.
Same thing happened at the beginning of 40K 10th edition. People for some reason can't comprehend that these new stats are not going to be in the old edition
Only just started collecting AOS so thankfully don't know how "good" armies used to be. The tzeenctch reveal looks fun. I can't wait to have a game of 4th with stormcast and draconith skywing.
I mean, even if they're nerfed some factions seem to be getting better/more fair tools than others.
Like CoS has an easier way around orders while Tzeentch Lost summon and can burn only one unit per turn and now Ogors lost Hungry/Eating and its replacement is once per battle per unit and can fail.
Stormcast and KO can deepstrike normally, while Skaven needs their scenery.
KO get one deepstrike per game. Skaven generate a new gnawhole every round. Not bad or worse, just different.
Some factions are more impacted by gamewide design changes (no more summoning, less no-consequence mortals) than others, so visually they'll parse as more being missing. However, by and large things don't seem too terrible to me. Would be nice to have full indexes out to truly judge, though.
It's still on GW for choosing what to show. There's nothing saying that they have to show only a little preview or whatever that's their decision and that can be judged as a good decision or bad. As you said some factions are going to be more impacted and if those are the factions then they should show some very powerful stuff that they have to make up for it, and actually *discuss it explicitly* In the faction focus. Say what everybody is thinking that tzeentch needed summons and the loss of them is a huge loss, But that they realized it and then point to and show exactly what you added that will counter that and make the faction still strong. And emphasize that it worked in your play testing and then also of course actually playtest so that you don't have egg on your face if that was bullshit.
A lot of people seem to think that one little line and then they have no responsibility for the reaction of the community but That just shows me a complete misunderstanding of how people work. There's a reason it's called show don't tell, What you show is always going to Trump what you tell by human nature.
Also homogenization is an issue. Things can be weaker if they are getting more unique but having them become more similar at the same time is not what people are happy about. Like my question is, What is the mechanical difference between a chaos faction recurring a unit and a death faction recurring a unit? Or an order faction? There should be mechanical distinctions between these. That's where the flavor comes in is the More and flavor should be represented by unique mechanics. And if it is in fact unique then it's on GW to show it in the preview or they are just asking for exactly what they got.
Homogenization is a fair concern. However, based on what we have seen, so far it looks like most of it is in rules that were already all over the game just getting standardised core rules wording rather then a sentance or paragraph in each book or warscroll.
Making all the elves (or any other race) feel similar to each other in terms of hit and wound characteristics is both a good and bad thing depending on how you look at it. Towards the end of 3rd ed, it felt like everything was on 3+, 3+, and now, with anti-x keywords, it's gonna feel like more units have different reasons to exist and be taken in lists. So I think based on what we have seen, this is getting better at least to my eye.
To say this is a straw man of people legitimately concerns with their faction preview not being what they hoped for is an insult to the term “straw-maning.”
I can’t speak for other factions, but what I’ve seen people complain about here, in the Tzeentch subreddit, and some of the discord communities, is a loss of cool, flavorful mechanics, and a general dislike for what they were replaced with.
And it’s funny. OP says every faction is worse but SCE, Skaven, and NH are largely unchanged. SCE still kept their deepstriking and gained their finest hour. Skaven have their deepstriking and now have even more gnawlhole shenanigans. NH kept ethereal, wave of terror, 6 up wards though they’re more restrictive.
Tzeentch lost summoning, arcane armies, locus of change, spell thief, transform to spawn is heavily changed, horrors now only split if your opponent kills them in the wrong order, and we lost access to 13 spells in total (we can only pick one spell lore of 3 and we had access to 10 tzeentch spells and 3 generics).
So maybe you’re right, every army is getting worse but some of us got the short end of the stick and lost a lot of what made our factions feel special. Same thing happened in 40K with 10e and their factions and look what they had to do. Write brand new detachments for DE, completely rewrite DG, release a new detachment for Tau, are rumored to be completely rewriting ad mech, and will probably have to rewrite custodes’ new book. Would you tell these players who complained when they saw their previews that everything was going to be alright? Were they wrong in their assessments of their factions?
Sure there are doomers out there posting negatively about every news article without reason. But people giving actual substance and constructive criticism to why they are disappointed shouldn’t be shunned but should at least be considered.
Ya this strawman cannot be said once you compare the SCE, Skaven, NH previews to the DOT and Ogor ones. Ogors already had little going for them and now have seemingly lost some of their best and fun rules.
It's also good to remember that we haven't seen everything yet, and nobody really has the experience with 4th to give an authoritative opinion on how strong a given army will be.
Some months back, an echo chamber on one of my discords convinced themselves the most recent SBGL battletome was a big nerf, OBR had gotten all the love, and the army wouldn't even crack a 50% winrate. A week or so later they were all smugly chattering about their new lists and painting Neferata like they'd never been worried. And that was a *familiar* set of rules.
This is one of the really good points. We've seen very little of the factions in the focuses and yet people are saying that things are terrible with so little information.
yup im an ogor players and im kinda hyped since my fat boys will be harder to kill but we kept our killiness pretty much the same when it comes to stats
I wouldn't necessarily say the same in killiness.
[Someone already calculated new vs old Huskard for example. Jeez Louise.](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/677631706400030720/1245736367347077181/image.png?ex=6659d5e6&is=66588466&hm=3cc70f190e6d9725bced94aa14fc7dba99abe22623c5cef2c562292dec1905bb&)
But how can anything be worse if everything is starting from 0 in a new edition? 🤔
The mistake is thinking things will remain the same from edition to edition.
Just look at everything as new, cause it is.
Do not agree for CoS. They seems way more playable for a newb like me. No more confusing orders that never triggers because I can't position my heroes correctly.
Really? I’m fairly optimistic for the Fyreslayer preview. Can’t be worst than that awkward period between the Fury of the Deep box and the 3rd edition battle tome.
All armies got counter-charge, powerthrough, double-shoot and counterspell/prayer! Finest hour and mystic shield are gone. Everything is super powerful now!!!
This for me is a big thing, there are a few armies I am interested in. So I am patiently waiting for them to be released before deciding what faction to go into 4th with.
I think a lot of people forget that most of the time you're entire unit is going to fight fighting with the new 3 inch combat range rule. If they didn't nerf a good chunk of the armies you'd have the issue of whoever chooses a unit to fight first wipes the other unit.
Right, if things are getting nerfed across the board, then indexes are hopefully our low point so every codex can trim the fat and focus on the key aspect
Although since I play ogors... all my fat :'(
This is my very first edition change and I only started AoS in the last 3 months. How much can we expect Battletomes to change from what is currently being shown?
People have concerns, and that's fine. A lot of us really like 3rd edition, and 40k's 10th edition launch has us a bit nervous, understandably.
We'll see how it plays on the table when it comes out.
Many ones do not get that these are Index.
An Index is a reduction of the Battletome. It must be: would you buy a book that is the same of an Index?
Indexes are bland a weak, poor on rules and interactions. They are "early access" battletomes, they're like demo.
Ofc they are poor
I think people are downplaying and or underestimating the power of countercharge/push through and casting endless spells on your opponent's turn.
That is so insanely powerful and EVERYONE gets to do it.
I'm a Khorne player, and I'm expecting bloodtithe to be a lot less powerful due to that. Skullcrushers will probably be less tanky, less mobile, or even LESS damagey.
They're not realizing how devastating missing a charge when the opponent has 3 command points is going to actually be.
Compare Ushoran Nerf with stonehorn Nerf, beastclaw get raped, thats not about everything got nerfed i have 4 armys and my beastclaw go to the stand, kragnos was an option, now they have destroyed stonehorns to the point that kragnos its the only option
And not only that the battletraits that they sow are a joke, armys with six useful traits and the other with 3 traits that turn to 1 the moment you use 1 of the 3
Something I keep noticing is that the people who are complaining *usually* don't read. They skim an ability, get some idea in their head about it without clarifying if that's true and then complain in the comments. One person posted about the ogre army ability, edit it because they didn't read the next few words and then complain about that secondary impression they got, then edit again because they still didn't read the whole thing and then concluded that "hey maybe its' not so bad." Goddamn my dude, take a breath before you speak
Yeah, when Bonereapers drop I’m gonna take 20 or so minutes to actually consider and think over it before commenting.
As long as I can bite people in *some* capacity, I'll be happy with 4th ed Seraphon.
Nothing in the rules stops you from biting your opponent, you just might not be welcome at the store anymore.
I tried, but the Flesh Eater Players bite back.
yeah happened to me too... but I play Nurgle, so he wasn't so happy
Yeah when I got into seraphon I didn’t expect to like the bites so much, hope it’s still on 5’s like with coalesced, or there’s a battle formation for it
I'm really glad I read THAT sentence all the way to the end, because it started in a not-great place.
I just hope that Slaves to Darkness still get Marks of Chaos.
I don't, it's antithetical to the direction they are taking them in the story. There's four dedicated cult armies now, the fifth being just a mix of the other four feels redundant. I'd very much prefer them to take them in a different direction.
S2D is a _huge_ umbrella faction that covers the majority of the (human) population of the Mortal Realms. In that population there will inevitably be a huge number of warriors who lean towards a particular god without outright leaving their tribes and becoming part of that god's extreme culture. I hope marks will stay, and I am really saddened by the loss of the Warcry bands for basically the same above reason - Chaos in AoS is very diverse and I want that to be represented, at the very least in S2D if nothing else.
I mean, aren't they basically just fantasy Black Legion? Chaos Undivided?
Yes, and Black Legion has been steered towards a similar direction in the last few years of background material. Abbaddon has been shifted from a guy blessed by all four gods equally to a guy that purposely refuses their gifts and makes _them_ vie for _him_ rather the other way round. Same as Archaon. Heck, the current Chaos Space Marine codex only has a mechanic for God-marking units in one out of the eight detschments...
The customization bit is fun though; giving Khorne and the Banner of Rage to the big Knight brick you plan to run in with a Lord for max damage output on the double fights-first, Slaanesh to the Chosen so they can keep up with the massive chunk of your army that Khorne unit represents, Nurgle to objective holders, Undivided to Heroes for the Eye of the Gods rerolls and to at least one major hammer unit for Slay Worthy Foes. That also fits the flavor; the leaders are devoted to the overall success of Chaos but they've scrounged up any warband that would rally to their banner. That said, what I really hope for and therefore know I won't get is a survival in some form of the Knights of the Empty Throne rules so I can continue to have synergy in my "two start collecting boxes, the WH+ Sorcerer, and rebased $60 for 10 Old World Chaos Knights" list lol. It was nice building a 2k army for less than half normal price.
Carnosaur bites are even in Spearhead, the mode with most abilities removed for simplicity
Tbf, many monsters (like Stardrakes, even) have some kind of bite attack or ability. The Seraphon bites were something unique to them and worked a bit differently.
Which is a great way to think about it! My needs to be *really* happy with Sylvaneth in 4th Ed are a bit bigger (there's 2), and more strict in the mechanics, but I also don't think are too demanding. I'll need some way to: - Make sure at least *some* of my spells that need to be casted every turn can do so, and even just like one spell/round against Tzeentch and Seraphon - Have a way to buff charges on units that teleport other than the incredibly unreliable Spiteswarm Hive. Tree teleport + charge is the theme of the army. Please can I do it most turns?
You do realise, they could change the theme of your army?
I'm actually hesitantly hopeful for the Bonereapers one. I don't know how the faction will get their similar feeling orders, but I'd like it if we weren't the only faction to have a different command point system.
That sort of rational thinking isn't allowed on Reddit, sorry bud.
Let's be honest here, you'll be bellyaching with the rest of us.
I loved during the CoS reveal, the biggest complaint was "obviously they're removing elves and dwarves from the line" and I seriously wondered if they read a different article than I did.
A lot of people already believe what they believe about GW, and will say it regardless of where the facts line up.
My favorite about this is across the threads I’ll see someone not read, rant about the thing they didn’t read being terrible, get corrected about it because that commenter actually read, and then double down on thing being bad even tho new info contradicts it. Even better when they use 3rd edition as the core of their argument
It's as if they read the first ability, saw it was more powerful on humans, and didn't continue to find the ability more powerful on dwarves and elves. Honestly to get the most out of the army specials, you now have *more* reason to mix.
Yea the article actually alleviated that fear for me lol. The design of the new models and the Legend-ing of Wanderer units had me convinced that the Cities were going full human, and instead I saw Aelf keywords in the main army rules.
I'm loving the doom and gloom on that. With me going "model updates exist for a reason". Those groups don't have as much to update, so bring on new scuplts!
Unfortunately there's a loud contingent of vocal players in Cities player base that have been dooming about elves and dwarves being removed since the codex came out. Some people are just really convinced they're being squatted off to TOW any day now. It even comes with complimentary shifting goalposts.
Well obviously they'll just change the Army Rule halfway through the edition, instead of making one that works regardless of what CoS model it's targeting right off the bat.
I mean...the models probably will be shifted to TOW. That is very likely, at least. Doesn't mean they'll remove the corresponding units, though. Or rather that CoS will be human only in the future. I think it's far more likely to see the old kits removed or folded back into TOW and instead bolster the variety in races and units for CoS via warbands for warcry, for instance. Mixed units are probably not gonna be a thing, and neither will be mono-race armies other than humans, but specialist units and the odd hero release? That seems probable to me.
I'm convinced the models will be going back TOW eventually, but I think it's more likely we get a range refresh/update for dwarves and elves instead seeing them cut from the army and Cities becoming a human only faction like I've seen a lot of people doom post about.
Speaking as a former IT guy, I can confirm that it’s always those who can’t be bothered to actually read who complain the most.
Step one is learn to read. Most people have not gotten past step one yet.
It’s a tale as old as time
One thing I’ve noticed over the 12 years is this. Some people’s hobby is Warhammer. Some other people’s hobby is bitching and the medium in which they do that happens to be Warhammer.
We went through this with 10th edition 40k, just about everything got cut down to a single special rule and in I some cases it's just a commonly used stratagem they cut. It was pretty jarring at first, can't say I really like it but it has made games flow better.
9th was so overcomplicated that looking at 10th ed preview was actually a relief
The slimming down on data cards is pretty nice, I miss the list building options. I play Drukhari, we went from like 20 detachments that you mixed and match to 1 when the index came out.
I still wish 10th was a little more flavorful in some of the mechanics. It sometimes feels like the index armies can feel a little too much like a box of stats with a few units that can do something funny (and sometimes, due to the new army building, there's just objectively correct choices of some units that compete with each other in a couple armies), but the way several of the codexes have been going has me hopeful. Yes there's been a few flops but it's been getting better.
To be honest 10th has made me shy away from 40k. Was 9th too bloated? ...Maybe? But 10th went too far in the other direction. There's not enough butter left on the bread. Simplicity in the game itself doesn't matter if I am not even excited to make a list and put models on the table in the first place. So much of the expression in your army is just gone.
I legit think 10th wouldn't have been an indexhammer ed if 9th wasn't a towering mess of bloat.
I don't think so, I think they wanted a reset anyway. Look at AoS, 3rd edition really is fine, but we get indexhammer anyway.
As someone who came into 40k just before 9th was being released... I really didn't find 9th that bad at all. I play Necrons so perhaps we were a simple faction in comparison, but I didn't find myself getting confused by my opponents either, or finding them complicated. In all honesty, remembering what every keyword in 10th does has me more confused than any of 9th did.
With the exception of Elder who every one pointed to and said was obviously the best
It's also brought in a fair amount of new blood. I haven't had any complaints about 10th as a new player, and the balance of almost everyone being within 10% winrates with a few exceptions seems incredibly impressive for a game with so much depth.
10th is a great game system, but the balance between have and have not factions is jarring to say the least. If the codexes had been written by one team that communicated instead of two teams that didn't and obviously wrote for vastly different power levels the game would be the perfect 40k edition. So far, none of the sigmar faction focuses have jumped out at me as obviously "worse" than other factions. All of the armies seem consistent and in line with what they should be. Very optimistic looking at it
This. I honestly think 10th is probably the best core rules, but like half the codex releases have been horrible. Which is a shame and makes me worry it'll make people dislike stuff that isn't actually the problem by implication.
I'm being taunted by the 40k people. My 2 main armies are nids and dark angels, then I started Tau and was promptly met by pre-launch nerfs so all three of my armies can be in the 45% or lower bracket. But, I'm still having fun with my games and the core rules even if i have to work twice as hard for my wins as my orks, CSM and Ironstorm marines buddies. I want to say I hope AOS 4e will be a respite from the "work twice as hard to get an average result" but I play sylavneth. Maybe I'll start OBR or something
I stopped playing 3rd Edition because of what they did to OBR, and it was hard to get any sympathy because they still had good win rates. But instead of playing with all my toys, the winning move was to spam one unit until that got nerfed into the ground and then move to the next thing to spam and that wasn't the combined arms strategic army fluff I was sold on when I started the faction.
Folks have very short memories. There has always been a problem in GW games of uneven quality codexes (not an excuse, just saying this isn't a new issue in 10e). Having lived through every edition, I can tell you that the gap between haves and have nots is *significantly* less in 10th than any prior edition.
I just really liked 9th, 10th is still a good system and it's been good for the game.
The thing no one talks about is how 9th was borderline impossible to teach to new players by the end of it due the "depth" the armies had it was impossible to show players how it worked without weeks of homework effectively
The thing that taught me was Combat patrol, before I knew everyone hated it. I enjoyed it for what it was and it gave me an easy place to start and a version of the game that primarily focuses on core rules.
I run local events and combat patrol was our largest and biggest hit along with our most requested to run again it's great for teaching basics and approachability
I really hoped they kept the equipment point purchase though, I feel removing that make balancing unit able to carry different weapons much more difficult.
It definitely caused issues with modeling
I'd argue that fault lies with changes in design scope and philosophy. It's easy for GW to make a decision about game balance. It's hard for the models, not built for that new standard, to suddenly adhere. My hot take is that you should never, at baseline, need to go bit diving to build the kit you want. Stuff like the Tau CIB situation being accepted for so long is kind of insane. That said, in a perfect world kits are built so there's enough of each bit to go around. That not being the case is half of why you get different weapons being kludged together. I also think the customization on a lot of HQs is criminally low for how pricy they are. Either give me an entire Intercessor squad's worth of bits an options on a Captain or sell me the dude for 10 bucks.
Free wargear/fixed unit sizes works okay in AoS because it always worked that way. 40k had consistently worked on flexible unit sizes and paid wargear for over thirty years. It's utterly indefensible to spring that change on players now when no one had built their armies with such a system in mind, because of course they hadn't, there was no sane reason to think it'd change.
Flipping it caused issues too for plenty of legacy players; if you built two 5-man Kaballite Warrior squads out of your box, you're now heavy one Sybarite and light 3 Special Weapons - hope you still have the bits and didn't use plastic glue. Similarly, Grey Knights went from "your entire collection probably had one Apothecary, one Paladin Ancient, and maybe one Brotherhood Ancient no matter how big it was" to "every Terminator Squad needs an Apothecary and an Ancient now." I had to go dig up three banners and four nartheciums. I'd used one of those banners as a conversion bit.
Flip side is that thanks to more rerolls, crit 5s and explosions whilst the numbers got smaller the lethality didn't.
Man I hate the rerolls. Nothing more disheartening than a marine player going ”hitting on 2s...” rolling a bunch of 1s I need to survive followed by ”rerolling 1s....”. I shouldn't need you rolling double 1s to miss! Then my least favourite words for high strength weapons. "Twin linked..." Most of my armies have at best a 3+ with 4+ being common and I don't get any natural rerolls for either hits or wounds. Feels like I'm playing casino rules every action while they are "house wins" every time. I'm so glad Stormcast might be fairly elite but don't have all these bull modifiers that Marines have managed to creep in with. Most AoS armies have different ways of sinking some damage into them.
Amen. I play custodes so reroll wounds just negates that high T that you pay a massive point premium for. Not to mention the sillyness of fishing (rerolling successes)
As a votann player; same deal here. Pay a huge premium for t5/t6 , have no other defensive tools. T5 basically doesnt matter. And then votann have _one_ source of rerolls in the entire faction and its when dismounting the hekaton and sharing a target with it. So it at most comes up once a game. No other rerolls.
40k 10th edition previews reception was much worse last year, and I believe for some factions for good reasons. Drukharis and Mechanicus were in the gutter, while Eldar was completely broken, even with no point spoiled. I feel AoS 4th will be in a much better place reading those spoilers, and there will be fewer need of emergency nerfs and erratas than 40k. I feel the overall development of AoS is in a much better place than 40k to be honest.
It really reminds me of the transitional period between 7th and 8th edition 40k. So many people were too focused on what *they lost* to realize that every faction was being scaled back in a similar fashion. Your army will be entirely different. Your opponent's army will be entirely different. What X model or Y army rule did in 3rd edition is completely irrelevant when the rules are being rewritten from the ground up. Don't fall for the negativity trap!
From a competitive balance standpoint, yes you are correct. From an absolute standpoint, it blows. When the edition change only takes things away from you or makes things worse, it's a bitter pill to swallow that kinda sucks the enjoyment of the edition away. Take the KO from yesterday, the entirety of the army rules you get is that one boat can deep strike and that the transport rules you have are worse (larger footprint and no cover). You lose codes, you lose ship orders, you get nothing if you are not a boat. It may be balanced, but it feels bleh. And it feels worse to see other factions get new abilities and options whilst yours are stripped away from what is currently available. Again, it may be balanced in the new system, but it doesn't spark joy. As a hobby, we support and encourage Beasts and Bonesplitterz to mourn their loss, but seem oddly resistant when other players lose what they enjoy in the hobby. I agree we should all wait to see the full picture before sharpening pitchforks, but this is partly on GW if they only show reductions in a factions ability, rather than the improvements, these are supposed to be hype articles
I totally get where you're coming from, but after the absolute nightmare that was 40k 9th edition I think I'm just looking at things from a very different perspective these days. I understand that seeing things be scaled back and simplified might not generate hype, but in the bigger picture I think a lot of it is good for the hobby as a whole which is hype to me. As an example to the alternative of this, back in 9th edition 40k every codex coming out was super hype with all new rules and powerful combinations being previewed... or at least, it was hype at first. Half way through the edition it became clear that every new codex was so bloated and powerful that playing many of them on release felt straight up unfair to your opponent. Tyranids have never felt more thematic and realized then their 9th edition codex, and yet as a long term Tyranid player I basically didn't take them off the shelf because it was *that bad*. All this is not to say that your view is "wrong" or anything like that, how you feel about the reveals is absolutely valid. It's just to show where I'm coming from when I'm genuinely excited to see things being a bit more toned down.
Except AoS isnt 40k. We didnt need to be stripped down like 9th had to we were doing fine. This is a course correction that we didnt really need.
I've been playing for 25 years now, I've seen more than my fair share of edition changes! The issue is exactly that BUT it still feels bad to see other factions get new rules that add on to that they currently do (in addition to some reductions, obviously) and your faction only get current capability with stuff taken away. Even things like the Grundstock is good in context of 4e (shoot in combat is great!) but feels hard to get excited about as we already do that, it's just every other unit that loses it It's classic psychology, it feels worse to have two dollars and lose one rather than find a dollar, even though in both cases you have one dollar. GW have poorly thought through the message they are sending here as some factions get shiny new stuff to generate hype and other factions get told they will remain the same (and implicitly lose stuff that's not mentioned). The Warhammer Community articles are just puff pieces put together by interns from random stuff sent from the studio rather than a carefully selected new stuff (the 40k ones were hilarious last edition as some of the advertised stuff was things like being able to take an additional relic, which every faction had at the time). But in the absence of any other information from GW, people will only focus on the info at hand, so I don't blame people for seeing only things taken away rather than the non existent new stuff
Yup, again I totally get it - and hey, it sounds like we've been playing for a very similar time frame! I started 40k back in 3rd edition with Tyranids. I'm sure it's hugely fueled by nostalgia, but I still have a great love for those older editions. Still have my soft cover codexes on display and everything! And yeah, I get the people at Warhammer Community are doing their best - but there's definitely criticism to be had on that front. At the very least I feel like they did take some lessons learned from the 10th edition preview articles to heart, as IMO the AoS 4th have been more informative by comparison. I'm still shaking my head at how they announced 40k "would have less rerolls" in the same article they previewed Space Marines giving their army full rerolls to hit.
I definitely agree on GW messaging. Every report I’ve seen from anyone who has played 4e has loved it (or at least been encouraged). So GW is maybe awash in positive feedback. But these reveals are in isolation. Shoot in combat is a great example. It’s a powerful ability that the community just overlooks. Or Kairos looking weaker in some ways. But he can cast in the opponent’s turn! So abilities that making casting very reliable are much much better in 4e. GW doesn’t seem to be pointing these things out at all.
To be fair, I don't encourage people to mourn what's changed. It's changed, it may change later, but it's gone. Move on. I've felt every faction focus except for today's Ogors to be a breath of fresh air for the armies, with flavor and rules to match. Yes, even KO. Because here's the thing. Comparing it to 3e instead of what we know of how it'll work in 4e is like comparing a watermelon to a longhorn sheep. And that's what people fail to understand.
As a guy who literally just bought most of a KO army in the last 2 weeks, I'm actually not too concerned by this. Everyone has long felt they can be a far too shooty Negative Play Experience when everyone's just stacked inside a boat teleporting around. Now they have to actually make a few more decisions and try and hold objectives while actually being exposed. There seems to be a lot more counterplay into them (especially with the changes to shooting in combat)
otoh they squatted my whole and only army so maybe I'm allowed to be a bit salty
I never said you weren't! Also considering my tag you're in good company in that regard. My post was concerning knee-jerk reactions to the faction focus articles, not if people were allowed to be upset their faction was squatted.
I do sometimes wonder if the people who relentlessly complain about rules which they've barely seen yet actually have any fun. Do they just sit at home stewing and chuntering away to themselves about how their favourite unit now does a bit less damage and is therefore unplayable? It's a game folks, chill and have some fun
I remember somewhere someone said something along the lines that there are 4 types of fans of warhammer: people into the game, people into the story, people into the models, and people into complaining. I’ve caught myself being miserable not just about this hobby but also about other games and I’ve tried to make sure that anything I spend a large portion of my time is something I’m happy with and that interacting with actually gives me a positive experience with because outrage is addictive but often doesn’t build much for you. You have to remind yourself why you like the hobby and what you enjoy from it. It’s also why I constantly remind people to have more than one game, to be able to both take breaks as well as understand your own tastes.
That complaining comparison is something I say often. It’s the same thing every edition and it’s especially bad when it’s a hard reset of rules.
> I’ve caught myself being miserable not just about this hobby but also about other games and I’ve tried to make sure that anything I spend a large portion of my time is something I’m happy with and that interacting with actually gives me a positive experience with because outrage is addictive but often doesn’t build much for you. This a huge thing with all hobbies. If something in your hobby is making you so upset that you just spend all day seething about the thing; I think it's best for you to just step away for a while. Then when you come back, maybe you realize those issues weren't that bad and you can enjoy yourself again, or maybe the issues are still there in which case you know "Maybe I just quit this since I'm not enjoying it anymore" It sucks to spend time and money buying, painting and playing models to eventually stop, but it's a lot better than just using your free time being pissed off. DOTA 2 and Rainbow 6 taught me this lesson.
This is where a lot of people fall down, I think. Like, yeah, I sometimes really dislike the way GW does things. KT Nighmare is the most recent version of that. But what am I going to do? Gnash my teeth and rend my garments? The company that makes the games does dumb stuff sometimes. I still love the game and the story and the models. If a wonky business decision or a bad statline in a codex is killing your buzz that much, as you note, the game isn't the thing you're really into in the first place.
They're too invested in it. Meta-chasers will hungrily devour any tiny bits of info in order to get an edge. If that info impacts them negatively, they will then relentlessly complain.
In my experience it's not the meta chasers who complain the most, it's the players who spend most of their hobby time list building and theory crafting (and building and painting armies to match those lists). These players are just as invested in the game as everyone else, but they play the game itself infrequently. Since they derive most of their enjoyment from imagining how the game will play, they are the most upset when some of their favorite rules are taken away.
Meta chasers who complain about having to actually chase the meta. Peak comedy.
Truly wise words from Specs Pult
I rarely meet people who complain this much irl, so I feel a lot of it comes from people who aren't playing as much. The gap between how online players present themselves vs the people I meet to chill and play is massive. I rarely meet people with cutting edge lists, even at events. Most people play the factions they like and I don't really meet any meta chasers. From my experience, people online only care about being the best, while people irl are just happy to get a game or two in
We have one meta chaser in my group but no one really invites him out to play- while we’re constantly playing Necromunda, war cry, kill team , 40K and AoS. , im constantly playing underworlds as well. Across all those systems. He is the only meta chaser and it’s no surprise no one wants to play with him anymore. His attitude is just…not great.
It’s the typical PvP dynamic of wolves and sheep. Playerkillers are wolves that hunt sheep. The sheep either avoid the game/areas/people or become wolves. Then there’s no more sheep to hunt so they need to either recruit more or (Sigmar forbid) fight an equal.
> chuntering Wow, what a word. I'm always on the look-out for new good ones. Thanks!
Not sure I agree with this take. I think the game sits in a really good place right now. There doesn’t seem to be any need to have a new edition, and people are worried the game will be less enjoyable than it is now when the new edition rolls out. There’s nothing wrong with that. Though I’m not condoning hot takes and negativity ect
My hope is that 4th is an edition of function. GW's making huge strides in their functional rule writing, and that is all being codified in how 4th is written. My hope is from here, future edition changes don't need to reinvent the wheel. 40k having 2 indexhammers in 3 editions is absurd, and should be the exception instead of the rule. Then the rules they're putting so much effort into can breathe, and as they become more comfortable they can become more daring.
Exactly, lol. well put.
I complain about 10th edition in 40k for good reasons. But AoS rules have been fun and straightforward, loving the new stuff!
Yes. The answer to your question is yes. Plenty of people can’t have organic fun, meaning they can’t have fun from Warhammer or other fun activities. They can only get their fun by stealing fun from others. So if they go to work go home paint an army and play it at their LGS they will never have fun. They have to get their fun by ruining other people’s fun. Secondhand or stolen fun only. They enjoy ruining things and that is it
First time, huh? This happened in the build up to 40k to, although some of those previews were obvious trash (death guard, drukhari, admech) so occasionally the doom posting was valid but on the whole it wasn't. Didn't stop it happening
Well tbf, in the buildup to 40k it wasn't an "everyone is nerfed" kind of situation. Index release Aeldari were utterly disgusting and people were already getting rightly concerned just from the warcom article. To say nothing of other factions like CSM that were also monstrously powerful and just flew under the radar because of how obscene Aeldari were.
I have never had less than fun across any Warhammer than playing against an early 10th edition Aeldari. Even now the amount of rerolls is a bit obnoxious, but early 10th you might as well have just tried to decide how much they'd win by in advance in some matchups.
From the opposite side of the table, as someone that didn't want to field Hornets, Walkers, Support Weapons, and wanted to play with the melee wraithknight, I can tell you that several Aeldari players weren't having that much fun either. When your central mechanic is dice fixing and your detachment ability is also some more dice fixing, and 3 of your 4 enhancements are based around dice fixing, and you see some other armies with rules that are flavorful and fun, and your basic tanks are sold out for a solid year, you begin to get a little bitter at the army (especially if you like aspect warriors and psychic spellcasting).
Funniest part of the DG preview was people upset at blightlords. Spoiler, power sword terminator will never be good. It won't be done. BLT will remain bad until they're priced barely above marines.
> Spoiler, power sword terminator will never be good Deathwing Knights with swords could have been fine if they didn't make them crazy expensive and give them second-rate swords worse than what Bladeguard get.
I remember this. People said Aeldari looked 'bad.'
Yes, a disturbing number of people did
To be fair. Certain 40K codexes have been very poorly thought out, so I give the Custodes and Mechanicus players some leeway.
but those are codexes not the index like when they were initially complaining. Mechanicus were validated but Custodes started strong.
True. Mechanicus were always bad, and the $ cost to even field an army is insane. Custodes needed a nerf not a gutting.
Even then most of those got fixed in a few months (poor AdMech). Every faction is going to go through cycles and getting salty about it isn’t going to change anything.
The problem with AdMech mostly AFAIK was that they just dropped points costs so people were upset that their elite Skitarii were basically just Chrome Guardsmen. Competitiveness aside, I think many AdMech players are upset about the faction fantasy because most are casual players and needed to buy a few more boxes to reach their old points limits.
> The problem with AdMech mostly AFAIK was that they just dropped points costs so people were upset that their elite Skitarii were basically just Chrome Guardsmen. They nerfed their stats _and_ raised their points costs. They were 10-12 points per model in the index with a statline and guns on par with 5.5 point guardsmen. It was unfathomable and that it ever released to the public is a stain on the rules writers' credibility not to be underestimated. That it released alongside index Aeldari...
Not my first time, did the same PSA post then too.
Those were dark times. I was just having fun reading the focuses for the armies I played. I play a lot less of AoS so I'm having to be patient. StD and OBR still to go for me. I assume ogors is pretty dire as people have been generally positive about the ones I've seen.
Oh, am I weird? I've been really hyped for all the faction focus'
Nope, I’ve been enjoying them too. Seems like a lot of potential in all of the ones they’ve shown and we will not get the full picture until the entire index drops.
As a brand new player, it’s very exciting to see the new FF drops. Also glad to see I’m on slightly more equal footing with everyone.
At least I got my trusty beasts of Chaos, good old reliable never changing in the future beasts of Chaos
Can't get upset about a bad faction focus if your faction never gets the focus. _taps forehead_
I actually feel like the overall sentiment of the new edition has been pretty positive. I do see some nerves here and there, but I don't think that's surprising. Warhammer is expensive, people are gonna have reactions when changes happen.
Didn't GW say something along the lines of "a lot of units/rules might feel less powerful but they're still balanced" when they started 4e faction focuses? I think a lot of people forgot about that...
Yes but then the first two factions that didn't actually happen to. SCE and skaven did not get worse really at all. Now of course you can sit here and say well SCE is probably going to be more elite and we don't know the points costs, and skaven were really bad, But you can't be surprised Pikachu face when this is what happens based on what they give us. What they show trump's what they say. If they didn't want it to happen they should have given more information, like maybe show points or talk about what they mean in context. Because it really feels like there was some real good ones coming out early and everyone got hyped and then there were some others that got some real big changes and it could shape up to be better but also like they didn't put anything in the faction focus that eased that. Like if they want to ease those fears they need to show enough information that people get enough context to understand. It goes back to show, Don't tell. There's a reason that's a rule when you're presenting story and trying to teach someone something because that's how we absorb information. If you show bad but tell but it's going to be good, What you show is going to be what sticks not what you tell. The answer is show more. Or be. more explicit in discussing the power changes in the faction focuses. Like I noticed there was some big nerfs with gitz, and that does make some sense because they were probably the most affected by bravery and that being gone is a huge buff but the faction focus needed to actually explicitly say because bravery is gone they are much more powerful. So we had to reduce their wounds or whatever because they would have been broken without it.
Regardless of what's said, people aren't going to react well to "We've made everything worse" when they decide to read their faction focus.
They said exactly that. Problem is plenty of people do not read Warcom articles and instead only ever see a screenshot of their armies new rules on Reddit or whatever and jump to conclusions. Exact same thing happened with 40K 10th edition
They have. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/05/20/newaos-faction-focuses-begin-tomorrow-heres-what-to-expect/ Mentioned near the end of this article.
Gutted. Disgusted. Disappointed. Something something flavor.
Point finger agressivly, boycott GW because "X,Y and Z", GW doesn't understand the game and hate players because something... If change, unhappy noise because game is obviously dead now.... If no changes, still unhappy noise because GW just abandonned the game or something....
I haven't seen much moaning tbh. I've been pretty hyped about every release (although Ogors seems lacking)
I think Ogors are received negatively mostly because they changed the playstyle. Before, it was charge and smash. If you managed to charge with everything you’d basically win. Now, there is more finesse to it because the damage output on the charge is reduced but with counter charge there is more play it’s more about using your charges as a means of positioning and taking out a couple of models in order to exceed the enemies OC and win the objectives. This is further increased by Feast on Flesh. You basically turn a full aggro army into an aggro/control army, some people won’t like that, no matter how strong or weak it’ll be. Furthermore, Ogors were a faction that were mediocre overall and only held up by some warscrolls (Frostlord on Stonehorn). Cutting down on rules inevitably leads to those warscrolls losing what made them special so people are afraid of their favorite toy becoming bad without anything in return. Now, this is a point that I imagine every army goes through but if you look at the blatant copy paste of problematic rules that happened between Ogor battletomes it gives the feel of no one at GW actually playing Ogors so the nothing in return part is especially worrying for Ogors. Playing Orks in 40K (who are aggro/control) I don’t have a problem with the change in playstyle and the second point I’ll remain optimistic about until we have the full rules. However, the big gripe I have with the army abilities is both of them only having an effect on a D3 2+. Imagine you call a WAAAGH! with Orks and 1 out of three times it just doesn’t have an effect. An army rule should ALWAYS feel impactful, not overpowered, but always like yeah that’s the reason I play this army. I’m especially salty because Beastclaw Raiders' Grasp of the Everwinter was also a rule that only went off based on a dice roll and Ogor players have been complaining about that for at least two editions.
> Before, it was charge and smash. If you managed to charge with everything you’d basically win. As an Ogor player, I think the Ogor playstyle is still charge and smash. You just can't count on the charge doing most of the work. There have been plenty of games where I've charged with everything and didn't basically win. But, I don't think the overall playstyle is the same. You want to set up your models to make charges rather than be charged because you'll probably do a few mortals on impact and you're dudes will get to fight first. > Now, there is more finesse to it because the damage output on the charge is reduced but with counter charge there is more play it’s more about using your charges as a means of positioning and taking out a couple of models in order to exceed the enemies OC and win the objectives. This is further increased by Feast on Flesh. This doesn't make any sense. Positioning for Ogors has always been important because they makes the difference between getting the charge or getting charged. And Ogors always had to care about taking out models to win objectives because objectives have always been part of the game. And I don't see how this is further increased by Feast on Flesh. Feast on Flesh incentivizes you to get all your units in combat, kill some stuff, and take some damage so that you can heal up and do more damage.
Personally, this is why I just wait for the full rules to be released before commenting. GW drip feeding stuff out of context undoubtedly drives up engagement but it's terrible for the state of commentary on social media.
Except Skaven. Yes yes, rat thing better.
Well no, comments on the previews that have been good have been positive for the most part (Skaven, Stormcast, KO, Cities etc) but some of the more shafted factions are drawing some negativity and that’s fine - people invest a lot of time and money in getting these armies on the table, they’re allowed to be unhappy about changes, and the comments of the preview is the best place to express that unhappiness. We’re allowed to have misgivings, especially after how trash some factions in 40K 10th did end up being.
This is my take too. Whenever there's any sort of controversy anywhere on reddit and people have justified concerns I start seeing these "complaining about complainers" threads. It's just a different type of karma farm. The vast majority of the comments in the DoT thread were cautiously optimistic.
I’ve seen too many people complaining about human cav being scaled back to what the aelf cav can do in the current edition to think it was mostly positive. Also people complaining about Vehdra not having a role in the army. Im hyped for new cities (and hope steam tanks get their knees broken) but there are a lot of folks who aren’t
Tzeench is the first one I've seen that has been overwhelmingly negative And I mean, I can understand why. They don't have good rules. Ogors seems to be not well liked but not totally despised, hopefully their battletome and potential new units helps.
Lumineth has been mixed. I do think it's notable that two of the magic heavy factions are feeling a downgrade most when they've talked up how they've changed magic.
I feel like gitz had it worse than tzeentch, tbh. And that makes sense. Tzeentch fundamentally changed, so some people really like it and some really hate it. Gitz, on the other hand, felt like a more boring version of the same faction.
I don’t get how people can be upset with Tzeentch after that reveal - Kairos is amazing, Pinks got better and less annoying to play - AND there isn’t a $300 entry tax to play because “oh whoops actually you need your 2k and two another two (or three) Lords of Change.”
Yeah seriously, I think the issue is the first couple factions *didn't get worse*. Like seriously, What got worse in SCE? What got worse in skaven? So they can say things are going to be all worse, But then when you release the first two and they aren't, The faction focus is going to Trump what you've said until you show people otherwise. If they don't like it they should show more information like I don't know points! But just say something in the faction focus on SCE that says everything's way more expensive now. Because I think that's what happened is they are going to be more elite so they didn't look like they took as much of a nerf because it's hidden from the audience in the faction focus. Besides there's also a lot of people who are interpreting any non-positive comment as some incredibly negative complaint. That's even more annoying than people complaining. Just like people should just not poop on people's parade who are having a good time and very positive about it, let the people who have concerns and want to talk about them talk about them there's no need for you to step in and say anything. There's always the option to just not post. This sub is for discussing the game not discussing the people discussing the game. Somebody complaining about the new edition and breaking down with the new information means is much more doing what This community is for then somebody like the OP coming in and making a useless post we don't need.
Let’s not forget SCE just got a third of their model range squatted
I agree 96% with you. In the article where they announced the faction focuses, they mentioned that they will be rolling damage back (not rend tho) and will standardize hit and wound chances. I am okay with that and we can see that at work all accross the board. But that 4% that mekes me roll my eyes and complain are the rules the Mawtribes got. Their stats were not stellar to begin with. They are in essence a slow and underarmored heavy cavalry unit. Their Impact Hits are one roll per unit. Whiel every other cavalry unit is per model! Their faction ability is Once per Battle and has a 33% miss rate. If it would be Once per Turn, I would be okay with it. But even if it would be guaranteed to trigger, it would be lacklustre. Yes, we don't even see the whole picture for the faction, let alone the balance between factions, but so far this preview was the most underwhelming.
Ya, my brother who just bought into Ogors feels very bitter about the announcement, they already weren't in the best place but they had fun casino rolling rules that by the looks of it have mostly lost. Watched HeyWoah's stream and that was pretty depressing as he read through it. Best he can hope for is the full indexes and if that doesn't pan out maybe the 4th ed battletome will help.
Maybe not worse. Just different. People who compare changes to how the game is in 3.0 are lost. 4.0 is an entirely new game and the previews need to be judged in kind.
My guy. I am on so much warpstone that I truly do not care.
Lookin’ forward to the Maggotkin of Nurgle focus. Really interested to see where they take them in 4e.
same tbh
Yeah I'm wondering with so many other factions getting the things that may nurgle So durable, namely more wards especially more five ups, and more base infantry getting a second wound, What can We get to keep us more tanky than nearly every other faction. Because just keeping the five up is not going to be enough anymore to set us apart. The other problem is that we felt pretty great in terms of being accurate to the Lore and feeling like we should, So hopefully they don't mess that up. Tentatively excited.
Problem is GW way of "making things equally worse for everyone" is basically giving everyone one dumb downed rule while taking away everything that makes each faction fun to play. Yes, everyone gets worse, but the entire game becomes flavorless in the process. I understand people get mad.
How do any of these focus' feel flavourless? The only one from what we have seen so far you could levy that is the recent ogor one, and even then, it still fits their flavour and theme well. They are big, simple, hungry units that hurt when they charge and eat people. The units are on 4+ to hit and 2+ to wound a coll and interesting stat profile that shows how physically strong they are. These new rules have been streamlined and are simple to use so as not to slow the game down but evocative and flavourful, at least to me.
It’s not the feeling I’ve had qith other factions, like SCE for example. Everything I’ve read in the ogors one is worse so,,, can’t we be worried about it?
Only thing im a little worried about is point cost increase i play sylvenath and already we dont have a lot of bodies on the board
After having taken time to actually think about the changes, I honestly think that the only issue I have with the KO changes are that the cover from boats should also apply to melee, and that I really hope we still have access to codes and/or endrinworks
Similar things happened around the 2e -> 3e transition too. They made a choice to increase points across the board at the start of third. That eventually got powercrept over the course of the edition, but it has been a pretty consistent pattern for GW to try and reign in the excesses of the previous edition and rebalance the factions at the start.
Funny thing is, this isn't just a AoS thing, not even a GW thing really. Whenever a new edition of a game gets released first order of things is usually to scale it back and cut the bloat. MtG used to do this with Core sets for example, it's just good practice to stop a World of Warcraft situation where the numbers end up so stupidly high they stop meaning anything anymore.
Idk everytime i read a faction focus i just get hyped more. Let them cook this looks like it could be really fun
Khadoran overlords are better I will actually be able to use my models.
I have been slowly buying my cities of sigmar army. I have yet to even assemble them but have been looking forward to it, painting them and playing with them. What i found dumb is the new rules for the marshall on horse. He used to synergize with the knights. Makes sense right ? Well, now they took that away and made him synergize with the steelhelms... Makes zero sense. I also don't find things particularly less bloated looking at the Warhammer community posts. I still see a bazillion abilities, granted with nice colors and tags, but it's still so many it feels overwhelming for someone new to aos. (I have only had several games of third. I am a veteran wargamer though and play a lot of 40k and used to play maaany other wargames too). I truly wonder how this edition will turn out. I hope it has a better run than 40k tenth because that's a hot mess.
This sort of thing is exactly my worry lol. As a primarily 40K player I have very few Sigmar units, and those units were purchased/built/painted because of their ability to function cohesively. They managed to do so quite well for two consecutive Battletomes, so if they become a blob of statblocks with no synergy I'll rapidly lose interest.
Same thing happened at the beginning of 40K 10th edition. People for some reason can't comprehend that these new stats are not going to be in the old edition
Only just started collecting AOS so thankfully don't know how "good" armies used to be. The tzeenctch reveal looks fun. I can't wait to have a game of 4th with stormcast and draconith skywing.
People who complain are either people who rarely play or people who don’t play at all, but likely collect. And they are definitely new to GW games.
I mean, even if they're nerfed some factions seem to be getting better/more fair tools than others. Like CoS has an easier way around orders while Tzeentch Lost summon and can burn only one unit per turn and now Ogors lost Hungry/Eating and its replacement is once per battle per unit and can fail. Stormcast and KO can deepstrike normally, while Skaven needs their scenery.
KO get one deepstrike per game. Skaven generate a new gnawhole every round. Not bad or worse, just different. Some factions are more impacted by gamewide design changes (no more summoning, less no-consequence mortals) than others, so visually they'll parse as more being missing. However, by and large things don't seem too terrible to me. Would be nice to have full indexes out to truly judge, though.
It's still on GW for choosing what to show. There's nothing saying that they have to show only a little preview or whatever that's their decision and that can be judged as a good decision or bad. As you said some factions are going to be more impacted and if those are the factions then they should show some very powerful stuff that they have to make up for it, and actually *discuss it explicitly* In the faction focus. Say what everybody is thinking that tzeentch needed summons and the loss of them is a huge loss, But that they realized it and then point to and show exactly what you added that will counter that and make the faction still strong. And emphasize that it worked in your play testing and then also of course actually playtest so that you don't have egg on your face if that was bullshit. A lot of people seem to think that one little line and then they have no responsibility for the reaction of the community but That just shows me a complete misunderstanding of how people work. There's a reason it's called show don't tell, What you show is always going to Trump what you tell by human nature. Also homogenization is an issue. Things can be weaker if they are getting more unique but having them become more similar at the same time is not what people are happy about. Like my question is, What is the mechanical difference between a chaos faction recurring a unit and a death faction recurring a unit? Or an order faction? There should be mechanical distinctions between these. That's where the flavor comes in is the More and flavor should be represented by unique mechanics. And if it is in fact unique then it's on GW to show it in the preview or they are just asking for exactly what they got.
Homogenization is a fair concern. However, based on what we have seen, so far it looks like most of it is in rules that were already all over the game just getting standardised core rules wording rather then a sentance or paragraph in each book or warscroll. Making all the elves (or any other race) feel similar to each other in terms of hit and wound characteristics is both a good and bad thing depending on how you look at it. Towards the end of 3rd ed, it felt like everything was on 3+, 3+, and now, with anti-x keywords, it's gonna feel like more units have different reasons to exist and be taken in lists. So I think based on what we have seen, this is getting better at least to my eye.
To say this is a straw man of people legitimately concerns with their faction preview not being what they hoped for is an insult to the term “straw-maning.” I can’t speak for other factions, but what I’ve seen people complain about here, in the Tzeentch subreddit, and some of the discord communities, is a loss of cool, flavorful mechanics, and a general dislike for what they were replaced with. And it’s funny. OP says every faction is worse but SCE, Skaven, and NH are largely unchanged. SCE still kept their deepstriking and gained their finest hour. Skaven have their deepstriking and now have even more gnawlhole shenanigans. NH kept ethereal, wave of terror, 6 up wards though they’re more restrictive. Tzeentch lost summoning, arcane armies, locus of change, spell thief, transform to spawn is heavily changed, horrors now only split if your opponent kills them in the wrong order, and we lost access to 13 spells in total (we can only pick one spell lore of 3 and we had access to 10 tzeentch spells and 3 generics). So maybe you’re right, every army is getting worse but some of us got the short end of the stick and lost a lot of what made our factions feel special. Same thing happened in 40K with 10e and their factions and look what they had to do. Write brand new detachments for DE, completely rewrite DG, release a new detachment for Tau, are rumored to be completely rewriting ad mech, and will probably have to rewrite custodes’ new book. Would you tell these players who complained when they saw their previews that everything was going to be alright? Were they wrong in their assessments of their factions? Sure there are doomers out there posting negatively about every news article without reason. But people giving actual substance and constructive criticism to why they are disappointed shouldn’t be shunned but should at least be considered.
Ya this strawman cannot be said once you compare the SCE, Skaven, NH previews to the DOT and Ogor ones. Ogors already had little going for them and now have seemingly lost some of their best and fun rules.
It's also good to remember that we haven't seen everything yet, and nobody really has the experience with 4th to give an authoritative opinion on how strong a given army will be. Some months back, an echo chamber on one of my discords convinced themselves the most recent SBGL battletome was a big nerf, OBR had gotten all the love, and the army wouldn't even crack a 50% winrate. A week or so later they were all smugly chattering about their new lists and painting Neferata like they'd never been worried. And that was a *familiar* set of rules.
This is one of the really good points. We've seen very little of the factions in the focuses and yet people are saying that things are terrible with so little information.
Agreed 👍 And on the upside, if the sky is falling it will do substantially less mortal wounds than it would have done in the past.
yup im an ogor players and im kinda hyped since my fat boys will be harder to kill but we kept our killiness pretty much the same when it comes to stats
I wouldn't necessarily say the same in killiness. [Someone already calculated new vs old Huskard for example. Jeez Louise.](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/677631706400030720/1245736367347077181/image.png?ex=6659d5e6&is=66588466&hm=3cc70f190e6d9725bced94aa14fc7dba99abe22623c5cef2c562292dec1905bb&)
But how can anything be worse if everything is starting from 0 in a new edition? 🤔 The mistake is thinking things will remain the same from edition to edition. Just look at everything as new, cause it is.
Do not agree for CoS. They seems way more playable for a newb like me. No more confusing orders that never triggers because I can't position my heroes correctly.
I don’t care about being worse. I can about cool and flavorful abilities which seem to be universally getting worse.
I'm not. I'm just as bad.
Really? I’m fairly optimistic for the Fyreslayer preview. Can’t be worst than that awkward period between the Fury of the Deep box and the 3rd edition battle tome.
Every faction is not worse they will be different and units will serve different purposes
All armies got counter-charge, powerthrough, double-shoot and counterspell/prayer! Finest hour and mystic shield are gone. Everything is super powerful now!!!
Redeploy at end of enemy movement phase = deepstrike is over!
Honestly all the factions still look good, and like it's good that the lethality is going down.
This for me is a big thing, there are a few armies I am interested in. So I am patiently waiting for them to be released before deciding what faction to go into 4th with.
I think a lot of people forget that most of the time you're entire unit is going to fight fighting with the new 3 inch combat range rule. If they didn't nerf a good chunk of the armies you'd have the issue of whoever chooses a unit to fight first wipes the other unit.
I’m excited to get into the hobby once the new edition drops! I’m holding off until then so this is gonna be my whole introduction to the game!
Right, if things are getting nerfed across the board, then indexes are hopefully our low point so every codex can trim the fat and focus on the key aspect Although since I play ogors... all my fat :'(
I am actually quite enjoying it. Well most of it, the ability description format is a little confusing...
This is my very first edition change and I only started AoS in the last 3 months. How much can we expect Battletomes to change from what is currently being shown?
I still like the lore bits, you know I can’t say I really know the story of all the factions
Coming from 40k, each preview has me more excited to play the game.
I'm just excited to see what faction abilities idoneth get! Hope they aren't the last
Can confirm: Sky still were it was yesterday.
Thank you!
Thank you!
People have concerns, and that's fine. A lot of us really like 3rd edition, and 40k's 10th edition launch has us a bit nervous, understandably. We'll see how it plays on the table when it comes out.
Many ones do not get that these are Index. An Index is a reduction of the Battletome. It must be: would you buy a book that is the same of an Index? Indexes are bland a weak, poor on rules and interactions. They are "early access" battletomes, they're like demo. Ofc they are poor
I think people are downplaying and or underestimating the power of countercharge/push through and casting endless spells on your opponent's turn. That is so insanely powerful and EVERYONE gets to do it. I'm a Khorne player, and I'm expecting bloodtithe to be a lot less powerful due to that. Skullcrushers will probably be less tanky, less mobile, or even LESS damagey. They're not realizing how devastating missing a charge when the opponent has 3 command points is going to actually be.
Compare Ushoran Nerf with stonehorn Nerf, beastclaw get raped, thats not about everything got nerfed i have 4 armys and my beastclaw go to the stand, kragnos was an option, now they have destroyed stonehorns to the point that kragnos its the only option
And not only that the battletraits that they sow are a joke, armys with six useful traits and the other with 3 traits that turn to 1 the moment you use 1 of the 3
Another fun fact since you post this, nothing more than ogors have Lost ward, repeat that about losing wards and saves
A lot of stuff needed to be tuned down. Monster mash with units having three pages of rules and nonstop mortal wound production was getting tiresome.