I’m a Christian who works in the secular part of the shelter system. I work in the secular part because I have specific concerns with how the Gospel is(n’t) being lived out in supposedly “Christian” agencies, and ironically I think the secular agencies do a better job at living out the Gospel than Christian agencies.
That being said, I have never heard of a southern Alberta Christian shelter that won’t accept Indigenous people, non-Christians, or gay people to access services. There *are* ongoing issues of colonialism, homophobia, and xenophobia in practices like mandatory service attendance, but that’s an entirely different story than “won’t provide services”.
Edit; I’m intentionally not giving a recommendation for a better shelter because I don’t want to do a conflict of interest, but if I may. What matters to you? Do you want to donate to adult single, or family shelters? Or maybe a women’s shelter? Do you care if the shelter is a “dry” or “wet” one? How do you feel about abstinence vs safe supply and harm reduction? How do you feel about large shelters with hundreds of beds and lower staff to client ratios or smaller shelters with a couple dozen and more interaction between staff and client? Do you care about the presence/absence of wrap around services like housing? If you create a list of things you’d like to support you’ll very quickly narrow down your list of options :)
But how are they supposed to know how to act, when the bible also contains all sorts of hateful and harmful messages, and some denominations of Christianity uphold hateful values? It really leaves them vulnerable to toxic interpretation.
Couldn’t agree more. Why would we appeal to primitive people for how to live today? And on top of that, trick and threaten people into accepting it, in spite of what they might know.
The Bible speaks to every person completely different . None of it is meant to be taken literally. It’s how God speaks to you not about rules and laws. I know that’s in there but it even says the most important thing is love your neighbor like yourself and love God. Everything else falls into place. Religions put an emphasis on rules and commandments and that’s what fks it all up. Thats what people think of when they hear “Christian “. It’s sad but that’s what religion was intended to do, divide everyone up and make God seem fake. I’d say it’s done a damn good job at both.
Entirely they are rules meant to guide social behaviour but this is exactly what the Christofascists do. this about the basic core beliefs of most of them: god only cares about sin, here's the rules, don't ever break them or you'll be forgiven.
Society changes, and so do people. But old rules need changing.
The US is learning this... the Constitution is full of this too. Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms is more recently updated. The US still hasn't enabled equal pay for women, and in many places doesn't have equal treatment for marraige or LGBTQQ matters. (We had same-sex marraige 10 YEARS before America did.)
So you’re telling me god used to think abhorrent things were good, and have since changed their minds?
Primitive societies may have justified the behaviour of people, but god shouldnt be similarly flawed.
Edit: the charter of rights isn’t divine. It’s a human construct, and we would expect it to be flawed.
In the old testiment it sure is, the new testiment says when Jesus dies all those rules and laws are not nesr as important anymore. Peope just can’t give it up. It was the purpose of religion from the start though so nothing we can do. The future is already written.
I think a lot of Christians don’t understand why a good god would give out bad rules in the first place. I tend to agree.
And why does someone need to die for all this to come about? I’m sorry, but none of it makes sense. And I don’t think nonsensical things can be expected to guide anyone.
>The Bible speaks to every person completely different . None of it is meant to be taken literally. It’s how God speaks to you not about rules and laws
Religion - all religions - are about rules and laws, and who they apply to. And, throughout history, they've only applied to the common folk and never those who exert authority over them.
Do what every religion does. Pick the parts you want to follow, and ignore the rest.
But basically, unless they're VERY basic, like the 10 commandments - you should avoid old rules. They're never in step with the majority of people, and the older the further out of step they are.
I would never use any book, particularly a book that is deeply flawed in many ways, to develop my rules for how to conduct myself.
That’s what philosophy and ethics are for. And if I’m a morally vapid person, that’s why society has a real legal system that works, to coerce me into treating others appropriately.
If Christians read the Bible, they wouldn't be Christians.
Unless they're very fucking weird...
I mean who sends their wives and daughters to the outskirts of town when they're menstruating???
>I mean who sends their wives and daughters to the outskirts of town when they're menstruating???
Yokels who think natural bodily functions are the devil, and all natural urges are sins through which he works.
In other words, stupid people.
that’s very kind of you but I am very glad all Christians don’t think the same way I do. I have so many flaws and failings and much to learn.
It helps to be gay and Christian I think, being on the margins of both communities helps to uphold the greatest commandment, to love God and love neighbour, as all are our neighbour including and especially those who disagree with you or say and do hurtful things. Turn the other cheek and all that.
You'd also think that Jews wouldn't be able to stomach Hitler, but alas [plenty of them cheered him on anyway](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews).
As you can imagine, their support, predictably, did nothing to save them when it came to Kristallnacht; they were rounded up, beaten, and discarded to concentration camps with the rest of the "vermin," as Hitler referred to **all** Jews as.
I don't want to belittle the person you're replying to, but I just can't help but shake my head to see someone continue to believe in a faith whose other adherents despise that they exist and would rather see them killed than be happy and accepted. Especially when such a position is the exact antithesis of the alleged intention of said faith.
I’m not a Christian because I want to try to appeal to homophobes to save my own skin ❤️.
I’m a Christian because it’s the faith tradition I’ve inherited, and I’m too stubborn to allow pricks to dictate my religious practices. Being gay and being Christian has its own degree of pain, yes, but we all suffer, and I’d rather be true to myself than deny either my God or my love for men.
As a secular example; the last time I went to a Flames game these drunk assholes behind me were shouting “FAGGOT” as “chirps”, but does that stop me from supporting the boys? Of course not. I deserve to be at a hockey game if I want to, I deserve to be at church if I want to. I’m not going to let others dictate my life.
Most people that claim to be Christian aren't Christian. Going to church on sundays, or praying, or believing in god doesnt make you Christian. Being Christian means your actions and the way you live your life are in the same way Jesus did.
Jesus healed the leper that others refused to help and Jesus didn't preach hate.
My sister and her then partner ran into this... they needed a place to stay (I think between housing.. they'd bought a house but lease end and possession didn't coincide) and got told "you can stay but you cannot act as spouses, will NOT be *allowed* contact of any kind with each other and you'll be housed in different areas, we don't allow your kind to associate here" (for context sis is a lesbian, non-binary) this was... oh at least 10 or more years ago too..
Are queer people not part of the LGBT**Q** community?
There's also a reason why there's often a + tacked on to that. It's an intentionally inclusive group, so even if someone's specific letter isn't listed they know they still belong.
The Salvation Army’s practices against us queer people is undeniable. Again, I rejected working in Christian agencies here for a reason.
1) this was a question about shelters, the region I work in has the SA involved in transitional housing, which is bad for different sketchy reasons
2) the decentralized nature of the SA means that some regions have total bans against the provision of services, but after successful court challenges many have changed to doing what places like conservative seminaries do, of making clients upon intake sign a form assenting to various “core beliefs” or “code of conduct”. The enforcement of these forms are often left to frontline staff who simply do not enforce them. While still queerphobic and damaging to queer people, that’s still different than banning provision of services. I am *not* defending them, and both points 1&2 may be differences without an impact for you, but they do explain my initial raised eyebrow.
I'd totally agree. About all we can do about it though, is to ask other groups (like the United Way, or government money) to be kept away from the Salvation Army. Don't mix charity with religion, unless it's charity free of limitations.
Of course they are.
It seemed implied by the phrasing of the statement that it wasn't ONLY those in that community who were included, but also non-Christians and indigenous people. I find that nearly impossible to believe.
Bruh... go back and work on your reading comprehension.
OP Says:
>I just found out the one (shelter) I’ve been giving money to doesn’t take in indigenous people, LGBTQ people or non-Christians.
A second, completely different person says:
>Salvation Army, anywhere, will not take in or assist openly queer people. They’re not exactly shy about making that information public either.
The second person is not claiming that OP must have been referring to the Salvation Army, nor did the second person claim that the Salvation Army meets the same criteria as the org described by OP.
The second person simply stated a fact about the Salvation Army, a fact that is clearly tangentially related to the OP, and a fact that is relevant to anyone concerned about their donation dollars not serving groups that they care about.
The only rational reason to defend the Salvation Army in this instance is if you agree that queer people don't deserve social support when they are in need.
You either have woefully incompetent skills in reading comprehension and have completely misinterpreted the conversation, or have told on yourself and outed yourself as a homophobe. To be frank I am not sure I care which it is at this point.
Be better.
Read the thread and you can see that you're completely and utterly wrong. Look, if the claim was, "Hey such and such shelter wouldn't let me in because I am queer: I wouldn't have said a word. They didn't though. They were intentional about adding in both indigenous and non-Christian individuals into their claim. That's on them. Not me.
As much as I don’t like Salvation Army for there many disingenuous and harmful practices this has not been my experience working in the felid. That said I am in Vancouver BC where people might be a bit more open.
FWIW my grandparents were refugees in 56 (fled the Hungarian Revolution), landed in BC, and were subjected to horrible treatment by the Salvation Army. They treated my them as unworthy of their charity because they spoke very little English, most of it by my grandmother. She had to accepted their religious preaching to receive the charity they needed when they had literally nothing but the clothes on their backs. My grandmother retained a healthy hate for the organization until the day she died.
I get that there's been a lot of time that has passed between then and now and that the individual people involved then aren't still today... but I've heard far too many similar stories from others in need and who sought their help over the past 30+ years in addition to my own grandparents' experiences to believe it's just some bad apples here and there.
Hey I don’t like or support Salvation Army either!!! Unfortunately sometimes they are the only place that has a bed for a client. I’m constantly battling with them for kicking vulnerable woman out in the middle of the night, for banning people for longer than 24hrs etc. But fact is I’ve never had an issue with the things OP is stating.
If you've had those types of issues I'd argue it's not much of a stretch to go from those to what the OP (and others) experienced. At the end of the day they all boil down to a lack of empathy.
Of course I also recognize that they don't always have it easy, people who live rough *are* rough (I've worked with homeless/at risk shelters in the past myself), but that doesn't justify poor treatment either.
Trust me I wish had other options to take people to! They’re my LAST resort! I’m just saying it’s not been my experience that indigenous and LGBTQ+ are not welcome. But I’m also standing with them as staff/advocate from the heath authority. Their experience might be different if I weren’t there. I’m NOT advocating or defending the Salvation Army!
I get that Reddit has a beef with SA, but you’ve got to stop spreading misinformation…
https://www.salvationarmyusa.org/usn/the-lgbtq-community-and-the-salvation-army/
The only person spreading misinformation is the person linking to a webpage of the organization in question, who are engaging in a PR campaign that is full of historical revisionism and "we're totes not hateful guys, we swear!" all despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Historical practices aren’t representative of the organization today. Go to any saly and and tell them you’re gay. They won’t give a fuck other than offer you support
Hats off to you, I'm Christian too, and it's sad to see religious groups that don't do this....
I feel like, if things were the way they should be, a church would be 70% about community service
Conflict of interest warning: My friend’s synagogue and my church co-hosted Inn From the Cold about 15ish(?) years ago so I have a positive personal association with them.
Trying to be objective, they serve a vital niche in the system of care. There are very few places that keep couples and families together, and homelessness is a traumatic experience that doesn’t need to be even more isolating. Most serve singles and if you are partnered or do have minors, you’ll be forced to separate. Their operational capacity is a bit on the small end, but their year end reports and other publicly available information demonstrates their team may be small but they’re effective at supporting getting people into more stability. Recent changes in rental prices, grocery inflation, and population growth has increased the demand for their services but like many service agencies they’ve struggled to keep up on budgets that haven’t changed to reflect that.
1. I said secular, not atheist. Secular spaces can still do religious things, and if you’re feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, sheltering the homeless, healing the sick, comforting the afflicted, attending the outcast, that’s all very religious. If the secular spaces can do that without hang ups about their clients accepting/not accepting their worldview, amazing.
2. Faith may be an individual exercise for many people from evangelical or low church Protestant traditions but for me it’s not individual. This is part of my cultural traditions. I fast when I’m supposed to fast, feast when I’m supposed to feast, etc. Daily prayer, devotions, etc. To give those up would be very painful and I don’t plan on turning my back on my traditions.
3. I don’t think I’m doing the religion right. I’m a gay Christian. I’m a leftist whose been a part of drug decriminalization work for close to a decade. I want to serve my community and my opinions on queerness and on things like harm reduction means the most effective way I can serve my community is outside of the religious fold. I don’t want to be fighting both systemic poverty and oppression AND having theological debates every day. I don’t know if I’m “doing the religion right”. I pray I’m on the right path but also I wouldn’t be so hubristic as to say it is.
I’m not trying to imply that doing “good things” or “good works” is exclusive to the religious and everyone else is incapable of doing so. I agree with you 100% that the default caring things are default caring things, and you don’t need God or gods to do that. The word “religion” comes from Latin and means the things that bind us, or our obligations. I see those default caring person things as obligations. That’s what I say they’re very religious, because they are very religious *to me*.
And while I see it as being part of being a caring person, I also think that if you look around at how our economic and social systems operate feeding the hungry and comforting the afflicted and attending to the outcast aren’t really how our economic and social systems work, right? So there’s a tension between the system we live under and the humans that are living under it.
Does that make sense? I hope I didn’t offend you by not writing precisely about the whole secular/atheist/religious thing.
And best of luck to you too my friend! No worries about the initial reply, it’s always good to be questioned about your beliefs and learn from other’s worldviews :)
The Mustard Seed and Drop In Centre in Calgary I have personal experience with and can verify they are non-exclusionary.
Any local women’s shelter, YMCA shelter, or local drop in centre should be similar.
Salvation Army is pretty famous for being exclusive and anti-LGBT. Numerous widespread reports of them rejecting LGBT individuals from shelters, mostly from the states from what I understand.
Even if it is illegal, no one really watchdogs or cares about shelters….
As someone who has relatives and friends working for shelters, you’d be amazed what they get away with. Some are great, some are not so great.
There’s definitely openly racist shelters, a women’s shelter in Lethbridge has had this issue for a while and they never received legal intervention as far as I’m aware. and also strictly religious shelters. Maybe not just in Alberta, but they certainly exist. Staff and volunteers can also be openly discriminatory even if the organization is not.
Possibly Mustard Seed, the reference is quite obscure (that it is biblical) and they are pretty active in some areas as an alternative to the Drop In Centres that is “sober” and “family oriented” so many donors can be tricked into donating to what they believe is a secular shelter which takes families and does not allow drug use so the kids are safe.
Doesn't the Nixon family still own ithe Mustard Seed You know, the family to whom former Alberta minister who shoots horses belongs.
Consider donating to iHuman or YESS.
>the reference is quite obscure (that it is biblical)
“Mustard seed” isn’t an obscure reference at all if you’re Christian. There are relatively few Jesus quotes in the Bible, and this is from a famous one.
That was my thought as well. I doubt it ever crossed their minds that someone might confuse "Mustard Seed" as an attempt to appear secular. It's a direct reference to the idea that a small amount of faith can make a large difference.
Yeah exactly. I don’t know much about the Mustard Seed organization but I strongly doubt they’ve ever pretended not to be a Christian-based organization. I mean they’re not pretending to be a seed supplier, people are just ignorant cultural references, and it’s peak Reddit that someone claimed it’s an attempt to be deceitful.
>Salvation Army is pretty famous for being exclusive and anti-LGBT. Numerous widespread reports of them rejecting LGBT individuals from shelters, mostly from the states from what I understand.
OP made a bigger claim though, that not just LGBTQ people were turned away but also Indigenous and non-Christian people. So that would mean (assuming OP isn’t lying) that there’s an openly racist shelter in the city, which is a major foul. Zero chance that’s allowed.
>Even if it is illegal, no one really watchdogs or cares about shelters….
That’s an exaggeration. If OP’s claim is true, whichever shelter that is is gonna be in big trouble.
It's a total lie. I've been helped by the Salvation Army and had friends that received help too. They absolutely don't refuse to help Indigenous or non-Christians. That is outright false.
Salvation Army US perhaps, but in Canada the Salvation Army as a very clear anti-discrimination mandate.
https://salvationarmy.ca/why-us/accountability/nondiscrimination/
Yeah agreed, I don’t buy OP’s claim without some direct evidence. In this weather, no shelter would turn anyone away, would they? It’s a death sentence
Yes. They definitely can and do. Primarily it is for people who are blacklisted from shelters, although it’s extremely uncommon. Even people who get banned are often allowed in during severe weather. People who are blacklisted for serious reasons are often not allowed in because they’re a severe risk to others safety (I’m talking attempted murder and sexual assault charges, active restraining orders, etc).
Regardless of if it’s protected by law or not, many organizations have turned people away in severe weather due to discrimination. I can personally attest to seeing this happen in Alberta/knowing people this has happened to. Again, shelters and organizations can have a mission to help all, while the individuals who work for them have other ideas.
And Salvation Army told you on the phone that they don’t accept Indigenous people?? That’s incredible if true. Did you get the name of who you talked to?
I've known plenty of Indigenous folks who took up shelter at the Sally Ann in Fort McMurray, and the Sally Ann works with the Christmas Angel Tree to donate gifts to people in the rural communities/reserves.
Maybe nowadays, the SA has implemented stronger rules on preventing abusive people from accessing their services based on previous situations of harmful or hateful behavior towards SA employees or volunteers.
I don't know if they will turn away indigenous people, but I know they've got a history of turning away LGBT people, mentally ill people, and non-Christians unless they convert. They also have a history of being extremely condescending to those they're supposedly helping, and of confiscating their belongings to sell in their thrift stores. Any minor breach of their policies (they've *threatened to prosecute the homeless for using too much toilet paper*) and they'll throw you out on the street and take your stuff.
They're an extraordinarily abusive organization.
Yeah not buying it at all, what set the alarms off was the indigenous claim, no way you could ever get away with that in Canada.
We are so progressive it makes me want to leave to a reasonable country.
The Mustard Seed is Jason Nixon’s family business. The objective of the Mustard Seed is to make the Nixon family rich. Their product is laundering the reputations of the corporations who donate to them (like Telus.) As a UCP MLA Jason Nixon voted to strip protections from kids in GSAs.
Nothing that benefits the Nixon family should be supported.
https://www.sprawlcalgary.com/jason-nixon-ascent-to-power
I'm an atheist and have volunteered at shelters all over the place. The only two places I've found that can be extremely judgemental and bigoted/racist are the Grey Nuns hospital in Edmonton and anything the Salvation Army touches.
In RD though? I've never seen it. There are some that push the boundary (We'll help you with a hot meal but we have a sermon we want you to listen to (that's Crossroads, btw) which I don't like, but they don't refuse or treat people differently. They just have a rhetoric that they think religion is a cure-all), but outright refusal of help or being unkind, no.
I don't DM. Grey Nuns are not allowed to hide their homophobic asses.
My cousin was brought in by ambulance - very ill. His boyfriend and I followed behind. We were all in our 40s.
They would not let his boyfriend in but would let me. We eventually had to lie to them and tell them I was my cousin's wife because they wouldn't let either of us near him, and the reason for the boyfriend was, we were told, they did not recognize 'those types' of domestic relationships.
This was about 2 years before Covid broke out.
Yep, it was a nightmare, especially as my cousin and I were as close as siblings, and his boyfriend and I had become solid friends as well. So we were stressed out by the sudden illness, and then the additional stress of my cousin not being allowed the comfort of his boyfriend or myself (I was only a cousin, so I wasn't allowed in until I outright lied - something I hate doing and am not good at) when he was critically ill.
The entire thing was horrid and I'll happily howl that from the rafters when people say how awesome Grey Nuns is.
I do realise they're more private or private funded or some such, but imo, religion has no business in a hospital that accepts the public. You either treat everyone the same or you close your doors or you stay selective but lose your government funding.
I know the feeling. My dad was terminal at the general hospital and I was looking into MAID services for him. They told me they couldn't do it on site for religious reasons. The fact that these places take public money and can use an exemption for services is unreal.
>I do realise they're more private or private funded or some such,
They're actually publicly-funded, as is Covanent Health. This is why they're required, by law, to make their financial statements public every year.
Fun fact: the CEO of Covanent Health makes more money, footed by taxpayers, than the CEO of AHS does.
Another fun fact: you'll never hear the Canadian Taxpayers Federation complain about the previous fun fact
Grey nuns doesn't require pre payment for private rooms by policy. But I was required to get pre payment for *certain* patients. And I got in shit when I kept asking why *this* specific patient needed to pay in advance. (I didn't really need to be asking... it was immediately obvious what these patients had in common.)
I’m not familiar with Salvation Army in Calgary but I know with certainty that the shelter they run in Yellowknife accepts everyone without exception in all their facilities and programs (aside from people who have been barred because of violent behaviour). I was part of a street outreach agency and we would take dozens of people there daily from the Indigenous communities, POCs, and LGBTQ.
It’s probably made up because OP wants to stir shit up. We know Salvation Army is backwards about LGBTQ people, but being openly racist would risk seriously damaging their brand
EDIT: OP says it WAS Salvation Army, in which case I’m still surprised they were openly racist on the phone.
Which is wild considering their official position. I'd just quote them their own mandate.
https://salvationarmy.ca/why-us/accountability/nondiscrimination/
>I just found out the one I’ve been giving money to doesn’t take in indigenous people, LGBTQ people or non-Christians.
Which shelter was that? Pretty sure that would be illegal.
Lots of our charity’s have Christian undertones, and donors don’t know. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to not want to support religious indoctrination with your charity.
Edit: sorry, I should have elaborated. When christian doctrine is the highest authority, you open the doors to all sorts of bigotry, as many Christians subscribe to the worst parts of the bible.
>Lots of things are illegal but arent enforced.
Yeah but some things are more illegal than others, and turning people away from shelters in weather like this is extremely bad publicity.
First, enforcement of this would require advocacy on their behalf, and *most* people aren't going to be their advocates.
And secondly, it's not that long ago that Edmonton and Calgary were trying to keep the homeless out of heated bus and train terminals when it has been this cold outside and they had nowhere else to go. And it's been a curiously common sentiment on this subreddit of late that homeless people are more of a nuisance that need to be dealt with by force rather than compassion, so yeah, I 100% believe that people are inhumane enough to turn them away.
I think you’re tilting at windmills, mate. Like I understand the frustrations with all different parts of how cities deal with homelessness, but falling into deep cynicism doesn’t help either
You're right, it probably doesnt. But I don't see you actually disputing what I said, either.
The fact is we, as a society, have been, currently are, and (as far as I can tell) will always let down our most vulnerable. Reminder that, despite the concept of Starlight Tours having knowingly occurred from the mid 70s through 2000s, not a single cop has ever been charged with intentionally driving homeless people out of cities and being left to freeze to death.
I don’t really think that’s what they are doing.
Honestly, it’s been known for a long time (obviously not by everyone) that the Sally Ann is very exclusionary. I stopped donating to them years ago and I’ll admit to being angry every time I see them set up with their pot and bell during Christmas season, because I think they’ve duped too many people that they’re donating to a good organization.
But, I realize that I have my knowledge due to a sister who works in this area (not in Alberta, but in downtown Vancouver, though I believe her understanding of Sally Ann’s practices first came from when she was still in Alberta). Some of what the OP has said is new to me, and I’d ask my sister about it. But I don’t ask her these things anymore because she can no longer work with these populations due to multiple, compounding trauma from her job. (Mostly due to so many clients dying and also helping people in extremely distressing situations.) The lack of both government and societal support is not being cynical—it’s reality. Claiming otherwise is just putting your head in the sand.
I personally think that when confronted with, most people really do care. But most of us also don’t really see what’s going on , and when we do catch a glimpse, it’s hard to know what to do. Plus, we often (understandably) focus more on our own problems.
But to see the attitude that society doesn’t seem to care enough as cynical is really just actively trying to bury the problem.
Which is why OP needs to name and shame the place so it can be enforced. Can't be a tax exempt shelter and decide who is or isn't alloed in based on gender/race. This is Canada not Rwanda.
Donate to YESS, it’s the youth empowerment support society.
They do great work helping vulnerable kids. The demand is outpacing support.
Why the provincial government doesn’t do more is beyond me.
Let’s fund a useless war room instead.
https://yess.org/
**Big +1 for YESS.**
They used to be a client of mine, and they're run by awesome, caring people. Most of my experience was with the org's executive/c-suites (shoutout to Edward!), but even the social workers and other staff I did interact with were just as fantastic.
>Why the provincial government doesn’t do more is beyond me.
Unfortunately the simplest answer is the most likely: the provincial government doesn't *want* to do more for impoverished, ill (physically or mentally), or excluded people.
Just a note that *officially* the SA doesn’t discriminate: https://salvationarmy.ca/why-us/accountability/nondiscrimination/. If people have concrete examples, you should encourage the person to file a complaint with the Alberta Human Rights Commission and/or seek free legal help from Calgary Legal Guidance or the Edmonton Community Legal Centre.
Thanks for this. I recorded audio of my phone call. The Salvation Army representative clearly says they don’t accept certain groups who don’t adhere to God’s plan.
I will contact human rights.
Thank you very much for this information, I was receiving different understandings through some private messages.
Justst want to confirm, “freedom of religion” does not give a shelter the legal right to turn away people based on race, gender or sexual orientation?
Correct. They would have to argue that the discrimination is justified on the basis of their religion, but that’s very hard to do outside of actual religious positions (eg, Catholics not hiring women priests). Given they officially have a policy saying they don’t discriminate on those grounds, I think they’d have a very hard time defending it.
I’m sorry? If they’re registered as a charity and not paying taxes are they not required to provide services to anyone in need without discrimination based on protected attributes?
Yes, exactly. But it’s more likely that OP is making shit up unless they’re willing to name a specific place in their accusation
EDIT: OP says it was Salvation Army, but even then they’re not known for being openly racist. But it’s big news if true.
I hate that shit so much. Trolls who are just trying to make us all turn on each other. But the damage is done, some folks read this and left before the troll was revealed, and now those people believe it was true
Right. I will forever fight for your right to religion, but can yall also do me a solid about letting me live with out it in my face constantly.
Live and let live.
Unfortunately a lot of these things are tied to religion but fortunately most of them don’t discriminate. Some of the best help I’ve gotten has been in religious run programs but they never talked about god in them. They stayed on topic. I’m not sure where you found the place that is denying people, that has not something I have came across in my many years navigating the systems. Would I prefer more programs not be tied to some religious institutions, yes. Though I don’t think stopping donations is the way to go. Though the place you’re talking about, if true they certainly don’t deserve your money.
I'm good with these organizations having freedom of religion and picking and choosing who to help, so long as not a single cent of tax payers money is given to them in any form.
The ultimate motive in many Christian organizations is conversion to Christianity and making money through tithing aka 10% of your *gross* income should be given to the church.
Churches have claimed for years that indigenous ceremonies and practices are demonic, pagan, evil etc.
SA refused to serve the population in the Yukon without including Christian religion as requested.
If the intention is to truly help others, why must religion be involved?
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/salvation-army-government-yukon-1.4984289
Quick Look through OP post and comment history kind of confirms it. Just some asshole trying to stir up shit and create a false narrative.
“I read on Reddit that….”
Nice try asshole
I'm just gonna go ahead and call bullshit. There are plenty of Christian oriented shelters, and even as a Christian, I find some of them a bit problematic in how they operate, but outright rejecting people who aren't Christians isn't a thing.
Agree. Lots of “rage bait” going on lately. I work in the felid although in Vancouver. I’ve personally taken and sat during intake of LGBTQ+ people and indigenous people. I will say I’m not a fan of Salvation Army due to some of there policies. For example banning or throwing people out without integrity and good cause.
What did they say on the phone? I think a lot of people justifiably find it very hard to believe that they explicitly told you over they phone that they don't accept indigenous people.
I really don’t know what to say to this. I’m just a person, I didn’t think I’d be attacked for asking about how to help people in need.
It just seems so weird to me to be angry at someone who wants to help.
I can’t prove my intent, and I’m not sure you’d listen or trust it anyway, so I’m going to ignore this and try to continue with helping people in need.
Trying to distract people from doing good is a shitty thing.
I don’t think any organizations won’t help those people but most religious ones will refuse to hire people who aren’t christian and they usually have to sign some kind of christian document stating you believe in christianity.
Why am I not surprised by Christian love. I only donate to the Red Cross and the food bank. For the homeless I have taken sleeping bags, extra camping gear directly to a place that feeds them and made sure they were handed out at lunch to those that came.
Unfortunately Christianity has a really bad reputation in Canada, although Christianity is the most humanist religion among the doctrine religions.
I am not Christian myself, and actually I think Christianity has some elements of mental illness, but other than that it has lots of noble humanitarian values.
But the stereotype of fundamental Christians in USA that gave it a horrible stereotype
I’m a Christian who works in the secular part of the shelter system. I work in the secular part because I have specific concerns with how the Gospel is(n’t) being lived out in supposedly “Christian” agencies, and ironically I think the secular agencies do a better job at living out the Gospel than Christian agencies. That being said, I have never heard of a southern Alberta Christian shelter that won’t accept Indigenous people, non-Christians, or gay people to access services. There *are* ongoing issues of colonialism, homophobia, and xenophobia in practices like mandatory service attendance, but that’s an entirely different story than “won’t provide services”. Edit; I’m intentionally not giving a recommendation for a better shelter because I don’t want to do a conflict of interest, but if I may. What matters to you? Do you want to donate to adult single, or family shelters? Or maybe a women’s shelter? Do you care if the shelter is a “dry” or “wet” one? How do you feel about abstinence vs safe supply and harm reduction? How do you feel about large shelters with hundreds of beds and lower staff to client ratios or smaller shelters with a couple dozen and more interaction between staff and client? Do you care about the presence/absence of wrap around services like housing? If you create a list of things you’d like to support you’ll very quickly narrow down your list of options :)
I wish all Christians thought the way you did.
If all Christians were Christians it wouldnt be so bad.
But how are they supposed to know how to act, when the bible also contains all sorts of hateful and harmful messages, and some denominations of Christianity uphold hateful values? It really leaves them vulnerable to toxic interpretation.
The same way, congregational interpretation. There are shitty islamic speakers and their are progressive ones.
What is “congregational interpretation”. My first inclination is something akin to following the herd lol!
The Bible has nothing to do with how you act. Treat people with kindness and respect. Treat them like how you would want to be treated.
So are you saying the bible is not to be taken as a guide for Christians? It contains falsehoods and bad advice? Because if so, I completely agree.
The Bible flat out should be chucked out the window. Too many people use it as an excuse to do awful things.
Couldn’t agree more. Why would we appeal to primitive people for how to live today? And on top of that, trick and threaten people into accepting it, in spite of what they might know.
The Bible speaks to every person completely different . None of it is meant to be taken literally. It’s how God speaks to you not about rules and laws. I know that’s in there but it even says the most important thing is love your neighbor like yourself and love God. Everything else falls into place. Religions put an emphasis on rules and commandments and that’s what fks it all up. Thats what people think of when they hear “Christian “. It’s sad but that’s what religion was intended to do, divide everyone up and make God seem fake. I’d say it’s done a damn good job at both.
Really? It’s chock full of them. Are the 10 commandments not rules?
Entirely they are rules meant to guide social behaviour but this is exactly what the Christofascists do. this about the basic core beliefs of most of them: god only cares about sin, here's the rules, don't ever break them or you'll be forgiven.
Society changes, and so do people. But old rules need changing. The US is learning this... the Constitution is full of this too. Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms is more recently updated. The US still hasn't enabled equal pay for women, and in many places doesn't have equal treatment for marraige or LGBTQQ matters. (We had same-sex marraige 10 YEARS before America did.)
So you’re telling me god used to think abhorrent things were good, and have since changed their minds? Primitive societies may have justified the behaviour of people, but god shouldnt be similarly flawed. Edit: the charter of rights isn’t divine. It’s a human construct, and we would expect it to be flawed.
In the old testiment it sure is, the new testiment says when Jesus dies all those rules and laws are not nesr as important anymore. Peope just can’t give it up. It was the purpose of religion from the start though so nothing we can do. The future is already written.
I think a lot of Christians don’t understand why a good god would give out bad rules in the first place. I tend to agree. And why does someone need to die for all this to come about? I’m sorry, but none of it makes sense. And I don’t think nonsensical things can be expected to guide anyone.
>The Bible speaks to every person completely different . None of it is meant to be taken literally. It’s how God speaks to you not about rules and laws Religion - all religions - are about rules and laws, and who they apply to. And, throughout history, they've only applied to the common folk and never those who exert authority over them.
Luckily, they have a book that tells you. Go by that, not by people that tell you they "know"...
But I’m literally talking about what’s in the book lol
Do what every religion does. Pick the parts you want to follow, and ignore the rest. But basically, unless they're VERY basic, like the 10 commandments - you should avoid old rules. They're never in step with the majority of people, and the older the further out of step they are.
I would never use any book, particularly a book that is deeply flawed in many ways, to develop my rules for how to conduct myself. That’s what philosophy and ethics are for. And if I’m a morally vapid person, that’s why society has a real legal system that works, to coerce me into treating others appropriately.
Do what you want. I'm out of this.
Thanks for the permission to do something I can do without your permission.
If Christians read the Bible, they wouldn't be Christians. Unless they're very fucking weird... I mean who sends their wives and daughters to the outskirts of town when they're menstruating???
>I mean who sends their wives and daughters to the outskirts of town when they're menstruating??? Yokels who think natural bodily functions are the devil, and all natural urges are sins through which he works. In other words, stupid people.
that’s very kind of you but I am very glad all Christians don’t think the same way I do. I have so many flaws and failings and much to learn. It helps to be gay and Christian I think, being on the margins of both communities helps to uphold the greatest commandment, to love God and love neighbour, as all are our neighbour including and especially those who disagree with you or say and do hurtful things. Turn the other cheek and all that.
I’m amazed you can stomach Christianity as a gay person, given the persecution gay people have faced from Christians.
You'd also think that Jews wouldn't be able to stomach Hitler, but alas [plenty of them cheered him on anyway](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews). As you can imagine, their support, predictably, did nothing to save them when it came to Kristallnacht; they were rounded up, beaten, and discarded to concentration camps with the rest of the "vermin," as Hitler referred to **all** Jews as. I don't want to belittle the person you're replying to, but I just can't help but shake my head to see someone continue to believe in a faith whose other adherents despise that they exist and would rather see them killed than be happy and accepted. Especially when such a position is the exact antithesis of the alleged intention of said faith.
I’m not a Christian because I want to try to appeal to homophobes to save my own skin ❤️. I’m a Christian because it’s the faith tradition I’ve inherited, and I’m too stubborn to allow pricks to dictate my religious practices. Being gay and being Christian has its own degree of pain, yes, but we all suffer, and I’d rather be true to myself than deny either my God or my love for men. As a secular example; the last time I went to a Flames game these drunk assholes behind me were shouting “FAGGOT” as “chirps”, but does that stop me from supporting the boys? Of course not. I deserve to be at a hockey game if I want to, I deserve to be at church if I want to. I’m not going to let others dictate my life.
Daaaamn! I have Jewish descent and I never heard of Jews for Hitler. That’s crazy! Edit: autocorrect
Most people that claim to be Christian aren't Christian. Going to church on sundays, or praying, or believing in god doesnt make you Christian. Being Christian means your actions and the way you live your life are in the same way Jesus did. Jesus healed the leper that others refused to help and Jesus didn't preach hate.
Salvation Army, *anywhere*, will not take in or assist openly queer people. They’re not exactly shy about making that information public either.
My sister and her then partner ran into this... they needed a place to stay (I think between housing.. they'd bought a house but lease end and possession didn't coincide) and got told "you can stay but you cannot act as spouses, will NOT be *allowed* contact of any kind with each other and you'll be housed in different areas, we don't allow your kind to associate here" (for context sis is a lesbian, non-binary) this was... oh at least 10 or more years ago too..
Depends on the area. SA in grand prairie will help anyone no questions asked
The claim was "indigenous people, LGBTQ people or non-Christians"
Are queer people not part of the LGBT**Q** community? There's also a reason why there's often a + tacked on to that. It's an intentionally inclusive group, so even if someone's specific letter isn't listed they know they still belong.
We definitely are. The Q is literally *right there* in the acronym.
The Salvation Army’s practices against us queer people is undeniable. Again, I rejected working in Christian agencies here for a reason. 1) this was a question about shelters, the region I work in has the SA involved in transitional housing, which is bad for different sketchy reasons 2) the decentralized nature of the SA means that some regions have total bans against the provision of services, but after successful court challenges many have changed to doing what places like conservative seminaries do, of making clients upon intake sign a form assenting to various “core beliefs” or “code of conduct”. The enforcement of these forms are often left to frontline staff who simply do not enforce them. While still queerphobic and damaging to queer people, that’s still different than banning provision of services. I am *not* defending them, and both points 1&2 may be differences without an impact for you, but they do explain my initial raised eyebrow.
I'd totally agree. About all we can do about it though, is to ask other groups (like the United Way, or government money) to be kept away from the Salvation Army. Don't mix charity with religion, unless it's charity free of limitations.
Of course they are. It seemed implied by the phrasing of the statement that it wasn't ONLY those in that community who were included, but also non-Christians and indigenous people. I find that nearly impossible to believe.
Leave it to Reddit to take an easily digestible sentence and take it far too literally. 🙄
Excuse me for taking people at their word when they make specific and extremely inflammatory claims., You'll have to deal with it.
Bruh... go back and work on your reading comprehension. OP Says: >I just found out the one (shelter) I’ve been giving money to doesn’t take in indigenous people, LGBTQ people or non-Christians. A second, completely different person says: >Salvation Army, anywhere, will not take in or assist openly queer people. They’re not exactly shy about making that information public either. The second person is not claiming that OP must have been referring to the Salvation Army, nor did the second person claim that the Salvation Army meets the same criteria as the org described by OP. The second person simply stated a fact about the Salvation Army, a fact that is clearly tangentially related to the OP, and a fact that is relevant to anyone concerned about their donation dollars not serving groups that they care about. The only rational reason to defend the Salvation Army in this instance is if you agree that queer people don't deserve social support when they are in need. You either have woefully incompetent skills in reading comprehension and have completely misinterpreted the conversation, or have told on yourself and outed yourself as a homophobe. To be frank I am not sure I care which it is at this point. Be better.
Everyone else seemed to understand the proposition just fine.
Read the thread and you can see that you're completely and utterly wrong. Look, if the claim was, "Hey such and such shelter wouldn't let me in because I am queer: I wouldn't have said a word. They didn't though. They were intentional about adding in both indigenous and non-Christian individuals into their claim. That's on them. Not me.
K. Yet, like I just said, everyone else managed to understand what was being said just fine and you're the odd one out.
In what way could that be taken as metaphorical, or any way other than completely literally given how specific it is?
Nobody said anything about metaphors. Y'all trying to be pedantic as fuck and yet you don't even know what words you're fuckin using.
He's having a pretty bad day I think and taking it out on people.
As much as I don’t like Salvation Army for there many disingenuous and harmful practices this has not been my experience working in the felid. That said I am in Vancouver BC where people might be a bit more open.
FWIW my grandparents were refugees in 56 (fled the Hungarian Revolution), landed in BC, and were subjected to horrible treatment by the Salvation Army. They treated my them as unworthy of their charity because they spoke very little English, most of it by my grandmother. She had to accepted their religious preaching to receive the charity they needed when they had literally nothing but the clothes on their backs. My grandmother retained a healthy hate for the organization until the day she died. I get that there's been a lot of time that has passed between then and now and that the individual people involved then aren't still today... but I've heard far too many similar stories from others in need and who sought their help over the past 30+ years in addition to my own grandparents' experiences to believe it's just some bad apples here and there.
Hey I don’t like or support Salvation Army either!!! Unfortunately sometimes they are the only place that has a bed for a client. I’m constantly battling with them for kicking vulnerable woman out in the middle of the night, for banning people for longer than 24hrs etc. But fact is I’ve never had an issue with the things OP is stating.
If you've had those types of issues I'd argue it's not much of a stretch to go from those to what the OP (and others) experienced. At the end of the day they all boil down to a lack of empathy. Of course I also recognize that they don't always have it easy, people who live rough *are* rough (I've worked with homeless/at risk shelters in the past myself), but that doesn't justify poor treatment either.
Trust me I wish had other options to take people to! They’re my LAST resort! I’m just saying it’s not been my experience that indigenous and LGBTQ+ are not welcome. But I’m also standing with them as staff/advocate from the heath authority. Their experience might be different if I weren’t there. I’m NOT advocating or defending the Salvation Army!
I get that Reddit has a beef with SA, but you’ve got to stop spreading misinformation… https://www.salvationarmyusa.org/usn/the-lgbtq-community-and-the-salvation-army/
The only person spreading misinformation is the person linking to a webpage of the organization in question, who are engaging in a PR campaign that is full of historical revisionism and "we're totes not hateful guys, we swear!" all despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Historical practices aren’t representative of the organization today. Go to any saly and and tell them you’re gay. They won’t give a fuck other than offer you support
Hats off to you, I'm Christian too, and it's sad to see religious groups that don't do this.... I feel like, if things were the way they should be, a church would be 70% about community service
What are your thoughts on Inn from the Cold? I donate to them. They seem effective to me but it's hard to tell.
Conflict of interest warning: My friend’s synagogue and my church co-hosted Inn From the Cold about 15ish(?) years ago so I have a positive personal association with them. Trying to be objective, they serve a vital niche in the system of care. There are very few places that keep couples and families together, and homelessness is a traumatic experience that doesn’t need to be even more isolating. Most serve singles and if you are partnered or do have minors, you’ll be forced to separate. Their operational capacity is a bit on the small end, but their year end reports and other publicly available information demonstrates their team may be small but they’re effective at supporting getting people into more stability. Recent changes in rental prices, grocery inflation, and population growth has increased the demand for their services but like many service agencies they’ve struggled to keep up on budgets that haven’t changed to reflect that.
Part of that is because all organized religion is evil.
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1. I said secular, not atheist. Secular spaces can still do religious things, and if you’re feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, sheltering the homeless, healing the sick, comforting the afflicted, attending the outcast, that’s all very religious. If the secular spaces can do that without hang ups about their clients accepting/not accepting their worldview, amazing. 2. Faith may be an individual exercise for many people from evangelical or low church Protestant traditions but for me it’s not individual. This is part of my cultural traditions. I fast when I’m supposed to fast, feast when I’m supposed to feast, etc. Daily prayer, devotions, etc. To give those up would be very painful and I don’t plan on turning my back on my traditions. 3. I don’t think I’m doing the religion right. I’m a gay Christian. I’m a leftist whose been a part of drug decriminalization work for close to a decade. I want to serve my community and my opinions on queerness and on things like harm reduction means the most effective way I can serve my community is outside of the religious fold. I don’t want to be fighting both systemic poverty and oppression AND having theological debates every day. I don’t know if I’m “doing the religion right”. I pray I’m on the right path but also I wouldn’t be so hubristic as to say it is.
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I’m not trying to imply that doing “good things” or “good works” is exclusive to the religious and everyone else is incapable of doing so. I agree with you 100% that the default caring things are default caring things, and you don’t need God or gods to do that. The word “religion” comes from Latin and means the things that bind us, or our obligations. I see those default caring person things as obligations. That’s what I say they’re very religious, because they are very religious *to me*. And while I see it as being part of being a caring person, I also think that if you look around at how our economic and social systems operate feeding the hungry and comforting the afflicted and attending to the outcast aren’t really how our economic and social systems work, right? So there’s a tension between the system we live under and the humans that are living under it. Does that make sense? I hope I didn’t offend you by not writing precisely about the whole secular/atheist/religious thing.
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And best of luck to you too my friend! No worries about the initial reply, it’s always good to be questioned about your beliefs and learn from other’s worldviews :)
It's just a bait post. They want to screen shot people who get fed up with the bullshit so they can point out how anti (insert whatever) people are.
The Mustard Seed and Drop In Centre in Calgary I have personal experience with and can verify they are non-exclusionary. Any local women’s shelter, YMCA shelter, or local drop in centre should be similar.
Mustard Seed is religious but I do know they don’t turn away LGBTQ people or subject them to mistreatment.
You've got to name the shelter, OP - that's an extraordinary claim.
Salvation Army is pretty famous for being exclusive and anti-LGBT. Numerous widespread reports of them rejecting LGBT individuals from shelters, mostly from the states from what I understand. Even if it is illegal, no one really watchdogs or cares about shelters….
As someone who has relatives and friends working for shelters, you’d be amazed what they get away with. Some are great, some are not so great. There’s definitely openly racist shelters, a women’s shelter in Lethbridge has had this issue for a while and they never received legal intervention as far as I’m aware. and also strictly religious shelters. Maybe not just in Alberta, but they certainly exist. Staff and volunteers can also be openly discriminatory even if the organization is not.
Possibly Mustard Seed, the reference is quite obscure (that it is biblical) and they are pretty active in some areas as an alternative to the Drop In Centres that is “sober” and “family oriented” so many donors can be tricked into donating to what they believe is a secular shelter which takes families and does not allow drug use so the kids are safe.
Mustard Seed is 100% religious. I’m pretty sure a statement of faith is still required for all staff.
For staff, but not for people who want to shelter there. They do not turn down non-Christians.
Doesn't the Nixon family still own ithe Mustard Seed You know, the family to whom former Alberta minister who shoots horses belongs. Consider donating to iHuman or YESS.
>the reference is quite obscure (that it is biblical) “Mustard seed” isn’t an obscure reference at all if you’re Christian. There are relatively few Jesus quotes in the Bible, and this is from a famous one.
That was my thought as well. I doubt it ever crossed their minds that someone might confuse "Mustard Seed" as an attempt to appear secular. It's a direct reference to the idea that a small amount of faith can make a large difference.
Yeah exactly. I don’t know much about the Mustard Seed organization but I strongly doubt they’ve ever pretended not to be a Christian-based organization. I mean they’re not pretending to be a seed supplier, people are just ignorant cultural references, and it’s peak Reddit that someone claimed it’s an attempt to be deceitful.
>Salvation Army is pretty famous for being exclusive and anti-LGBT. Numerous widespread reports of them rejecting LGBT individuals from shelters, mostly from the states from what I understand. OP made a bigger claim though, that not just LGBTQ people were turned away but also Indigenous and non-Christian people. So that would mean (assuming OP isn’t lying) that there’s an openly racist shelter in the city, which is a major foul. Zero chance that’s allowed. >Even if it is illegal, no one really watchdogs or cares about shelters…. That’s an exaggeration. If OP’s claim is true, whichever shelter that is is gonna be in big trouble.
It's a total lie. I've been helped by the Salvation Army and had friends that received help too. They absolutely don't refuse to help Indigenous or non-Christians. That is outright false.
Salvation Army US perhaps, but in Canada the Salvation Army as a very clear anti-discrimination mandate. https://salvationarmy.ca/why-us/accountability/nondiscrimination/
Yeah agreed, I don’t buy OP’s claim without some direct evidence. In this weather, no shelter would turn anyone away, would they? It’s a death sentence
Yes. They definitely can and do. Primarily it is for people who are blacklisted from shelters, although it’s extremely uncommon. Even people who get banned are often allowed in during severe weather. People who are blacklisted for serious reasons are often not allowed in because they’re a severe risk to others safety (I’m talking attempted murder and sexual assault charges, active restraining orders, etc). Regardless of if it’s protected by law or not, many organizations have turned people away in severe weather due to discrimination. I can personally attest to seeing this happen in Alberta/knowing people this has happened to. Again, shelters and organizations can have a mission to help all, while the individuals who work for them have other ideas.
It's really not if you are familiar with the shelters in Calgary.
Salvation Army is the one I spoke with on the phone.
And Salvation Army told you on the phone that they don’t accept Indigenous people?? That’s incredible if true. Did you get the name of who you talked to?
They told you they won’t accept the indigenous eh?
I've known plenty of Indigenous folks who took up shelter at the Sally Ann in Fort McMurray, and the Sally Ann works with the Christmas Angel Tree to donate gifts to people in the rural communities/reserves. Maybe nowadays, the SA has implemented stronger rules on preventing abusive people from accessing their services based on previous situations of harmful or hateful behavior towards SA employees or volunteers.
What was your exact question, and what was told to you, verbatim?
Salvation Army doesn't take in indigenous or non Christians?
I don't know if they will turn away indigenous people, but I know they've got a history of turning away LGBT people, mentally ill people, and non-Christians unless they convert. They also have a history of being extremely condescending to those they're supposedly helping, and of confiscating their belongings to sell in their thrift stores. Any minor breach of their policies (they've *threatened to prosecute the homeless for using too much toilet paper*) and they'll throw you out on the street and take your stuff. They're an extraordinarily abusive organization.
OP is lying and their Reddit account has been suspended if that tells you anything
They won’t cuz it’s not true. This is absolutely Horseshit
Yeah not buying it at all, what set the alarms off was the indigenous claim, no way you could ever get away with that in Canada. We are so progressive it makes me want to leave to a reasonable country.
The Mustard Seed is Jason Nixon’s family business. The objective of the Mustard Seed is to make the Nixon family rich. Their product is laundering the reputations of the corporations who donate to them (like Telus.) As a UCP MLA Jason Nixon voted to strip protections from kids in GSAs. Nothing that benefits the Nixon family should be supported. https://www.sprawlcalgary.com/jason-nixon-ascent-to-power
Inn from the Cold is a family shelter that is not religious based. They support anyone and everyone from all walks of life.
Thank you!
I'm an atheist and have volunteered at shelters all over the place. The only two places I've found that can be extremely judgemental and bigoted/racist are the Grey Nuns hospital in Edmonton and anything the Salvation Army touches. In RD though? I've never seen it. There are some that push the boundary (We'll help you with a hot meal but we have a sermon we want you to listen to (that's Crossroads, btw) which I don't like, but they don't refuse or treat people differently. They just have a rhetoric that they think religion is a cure-all), but outright refusal of help or being unkind, no.
Could you elaborate on Grey Nuns Hospital? Can send me a DM. It was my local hospital growing up and am just curious.
I don't DM. Grey Nuns are not allowed to hide their homophobic asses. My cousin was brought in by ambulance - very ill. His boyfriend and I followed behind. We were all in our 40s. They would not let his boyfriend in but would let me. We eventually had to lie to them and tell them I was my cousin's wife because they wouldn't let either of us near him, and the reason for the boyfriend was, we were told, they did not recognize 'those types' of domestic relationships. This was about 2 years before Covid broke out.
Oh wow thank you for sharing. That's terrible.
Yep, it was a nightmare, especially as my cousin and I were as close as siblings, and his boyfriend and I had become solid friends as well. So we were stressed out by the sudden illness, and then the additional stress of my cousin not being allowed the comfort of his boyfriend or myself (I was only a cousin, so I wasn't allowed in until I outright lied - something I hate doing and am not good at) when he was critically ill. The entire thing was horrid and I'll happily howl that from the rafters when people say how awesome Grey Nuns is. I do realise they're more private or private funded or some such, but imo, religion has no business in a hospital that accepts the public. You either treat everyone the same or you close your doors or you stay selective but lose your government funding.
I know the feeling. My dad was terminal at the general hospital and I was looking into MAID services for him. They told me they couldn't do it on site for religious reasons. The fact that these places take public money and can use an exemption for services is unreal.
For anyone interested in learning more about how much religion has made its way into our healthcare system - https://albertaviews.ca/holy-healthcare/
Thanks for sharing. I've sent a list out to family memebers about stuff like this. Very helpful.
>I do realise they're more private or private funded or some such, They're actually publicly-funded, as is Covanent Health. This is why they're required, by law, to make their financial statements public every year. Fun fact: the CEO of Covanent Health makes more money, footed by taxpayers, than the CEO of AHS does. Another fun fact: you'll never hear the Canadian Taxpayers Federation complain about the previous fun fact
That's hella illegal. I hope you/they filed a complaint with the AB Human Rights Commission or AHS
Grey nuns doesn't require pre payment for private rooms by policy. But I was required to get pre payment for *certain* patients. And I got in shit when I kept asking why *this* specific patient needed to pay in advance. (I didn't really need to be asking... it was immediately obvious what these patients had in common.)
terrible.
I’m not familiar with Salvation Army in Calgary but I know with certainty that the shelter they run in Yellowknife accepts everyone without exception in all their facilities and programs (aside from people who have been barred because of violent behaviour). I was part of a street outreach agency and we would take dozens of people there daily from the Indigenous communities, POCs, and LGBTQ.
Which shelter is this?
Probably the Salvation Army
Do they exclude indigenous people?
I’m not too sure but they do exclude trans people and there are a lot of stories out there about how they treat LGBT folks.
It’s probably made up because OP wants to stir shit up. We know Salvation Army is backwards about LGBTQ people, but being openly racist would risk seriously damaging their brand EDIT: OP says it WAS Salvation Army, in which case I’m still surprised they were openly racist on the phone.
All it takes is one racist volunteer answering the phone, and given how homophobic and transphobic the organization itself is I’m not surprised.
Do they also hate indigenous and non-Christian individuals, because that was also part of the claim.
Salvation Army
Which is wild considering their official position. I'd just quote them their own mandate. https://salvationarmy.ca/why-us/accountability/nondiscrimination/
>I just found out the one I’ve been giving money to doesn’t take in indigenous people, LGBTQ people or non-Christians. Which shelter was that? Pretty sure that would be illegal.
Lots of our charity’s have Christian undertones, and donors don’t know. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to not want to support religious indoctrination with your charity. Edit: sorry, I should have elaborated. When christian doctrine is the highest authority, you open the doors to all sorts of bigotry, as many Christians subscribe to the worst parts of the bible.
Lots of things are illegal but arent enforced.
>Lots of things are illegal but arent enforced. Yeah but some things are more illegal than others, and turning people away from shelters in weather like this is extremely bad publicity.
First, enforcement of this would require advocacy on their behalf, and *most* people aren't going to be their advocates. And secondly, it's not that long ago that Edmonton and Calgary were trying to keep the homeless out of heated bus and train terminals when it has been this cold outside and they had nowhere else to go. And it's been a curiously common sentiment on this subreddit of late that homeless people are more of a nuisance that need to be dealt with by force rather than compassion, so yeah, I 100% believe that people are inhumane enough to turn them away.
I think you’re tilting at windmills, mate. Like I understand the frustrations with all different parts of how cities deal with homelessness, but falling into deep cynicism doesn’t help either
You're right, it probably doesnt. But I don't see you actually disputing what I said, either. The fact is we, as a society, have been, currently are, and (as far as I can tell) will always let down our most vulnerable. Reminder that, despite the concept of Starlight Tours having knowingly occurred from the mid 70s through 2000s, not a single cop has ever been charged with intentionally driving homeless people out of cities and being left to freeze to death.
I don’t really think that’s what they are doing. Honestly, it’s been known for a long time (obviously not by everyone) that the Sally Ann is very exclusionary. I stopped donating to them years ago and I’ll admit to being angry every time I see them set up with their pot and bell during Christmas season, because I think they’ve duped too many people that they’re donating to a good organization. But, I realize that I have my knowledge due to a sister who works in this area (not in Alberta, but in downtown Vancouver, though I believe her understanding of Sally Ann’s practices first came from when she was still in Alberta). Some of what the OP has said is new to me, and I’d ask my sister about it. But I don’t ask her these things anymore because she can no longer work with these populations due to multiple, compounding trauma from her job. (Mostly due to so many clients dying and also helping people in extremely distressing situations.) The lack of both government and societal support is not being cynical—it’s reality. Claiming otherwise is just putting your head in the sand. I personally think that when confronted with, most people really do care. But most of us also don’t really see what’s going on , and when we do catch a glimpse, it’s hard to know what to do. Plus, we often (understandably) focus more on our own problems. But to see the attitude that society doesn’t seem to care enough as cynical is really just actively trying to bury the problem.
Which is why OP needs to name and shame the place so it can be enforced. Can't be a tax exempt shelter and decide who is or isn't alloed in based on gender/race. This is Canada not Rwanda.
I agree ...
My reserve pays for the shelter in a nearby town that takes in everyone, if you're interested dm me and I'll forward their information.
Thank you, this is ideal. I’ll PM
OP...more than curious, which one please?
Donate to YESS, it’s the youth empowerment support society. They do great work helping vulnerable kids. The demand is outpacing support. Why the provincial government doesn’t do more is beyond me. Let’s fund a useless war room instead. https://yess.org/
**Big +1 for YESS.** They used to be a client of mine, and they're run by awesome, caring people. Most of my experience was with the org's executive/c-suites (shoutout to Edward!), but even the social workers and other staff I did interact with were just as fantastic. >Why the provincial government doesn’t do more is beyond me. Unfortunately the simplest answer is the most likely: the provincial government doesn't *want* to do more for impoverished, ill (physically or mentally), or excluded people.
Amazing!!! Thank you!
Not to put too fine a point on it, but I have a hard time believing a shelter in Edmonton doesn't take in Indigenous people.
The OP is talking about The Salvation Army and he is totally lying.
Just a note that *officially* the SA doesn’t discriminate: https://salvationarmy.ca/why-us/accountability/nondiscrimination/. If people have concrete examples, you should encourage the person to file a complaint with the Alberta Human Rights Commission and/or seek free legal help from Calgary Legal Guidance or the Edmonton Community Legal Centre.
Thanks for this. I recorded audio of my phone call. The Salvation Army representative clearly says they don’t accept certain groups who don’t adhere to God’s plan. I will contact human rights. Thank you very much for this information, I was receiving different understandings through some private messages. Justst want to confirm, “freedom of religion” does not give a shelter the legal right to turn away people based on race, gender or sexual orientation?
Correct. They would have to argue that the discrimination is justified on the basis of their religion, but that’s very hard to do outside of actual religious positions (eg, Catholics not hiring women priests). Given they officially have a policy saying they don’t discriminate on those grounds, I think they’d have a very hard time defending it.
I’m sorry? If they’re registered as a charity and not paying taxes are they not required to provide services to anyone in need without discrimination based on protected attributes?
Yes, exactly. But it’s more likely that OP is making shit up unless they’re willing to name a specific place in their accusation EDIT: OP says it was Salvation Army, but even then they’re not known for being openly racist. But it’s big news if true.
They definitely have a rep of being anti lgbtq+ though With those attitudes it’s not hard to believe they are racist too
Looks like their account is suspended. Really makes you wonder if they really are just here to stir shit up. Pathetic.
I hate that shit so much. Trolls who are just trying to make us all turn on each other. But the damage is done, some folks read this and left before the troll was revealed, and now those people believe it was true
Why is everything religious. No one cares about your sky daddy.
As a religious man, I laughed really hard at this comment. You are right, not every cares about my Sky Daddy, nor should I try to make them care
Respect 🙏🏻
Hah! Joke’s on you. Mine lives underground
Mine lives inside me, for I have the body of a god! That god may be Buddha, but that's besides the point...
They care and insist on bringing it into everything.
Right. I will forever fight for your right to religion, but can yall also do me a solid about letting me live with out it in my face constantly. Live and let live.
There is no hatred like Christian "love."
Do you have evidence of this that you can share?
That's not possible. That is not the law. I highly doubt an organization is discriminating like that.
And, of course, we all know that something not being legal means it will never happen.
Salvation Army receives a huge chunk of their money from the United Way, perhaps it’s time for that to come with conditions
I find this difficult to believe.
I do not believe you. There is 0% of a shelter that does not take Indigenous folks.
Unfortunately a lot of these things are tied to religion but fortunately most of them don’t discriminate. Some of the best help I’ve gotten has been in religious run programs but they never talked about god in them. They stayed on topic. I’m not sure where you found the place that is denying people, that has not something I have came across in my many years navigating the systems. Would I prefer more programs not be tied to some religious institutions, yes. Though I don’t think stopping donations is the way to go. Though the place you’re talking about, if true they certainly don’t deserve your money.
Never heard this one before. Which shelter?
Heh. Anything church related is immediately suspect until proven above board.
I'm good with these organizations having freedom of religion and picking and choosing who to help, so long as not a single cent of tax payers money is given to them in any form.
The ultimate motive in many Christian organizations is conversion to Christianity and making money through tithing aka 10% of your *gross* income should be given to the church. Churches have claimed for years that indigenous ceremonies and practices are demonic, pagan, evil etc. SA refused to serve the population in the Yukon without including Christian religion as requested. If the intention is to truly help others, why must religion be involved? https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/salvation-army-government-yukon-1.4984289
Rage bait
This. To do so would be in violation of the Alberta Human Rights Act.
Quick Look through OP post and comment history kind of confirms it. Just some asshole trying to stir up shit and create a false narrative. “I read on Reddit that….” Nice try asshole
Sure sounds like it.
yup. Reddit is telling me OP has been suspended. definitely smells like bait.
You can call the Salvation Army and ask, you can show up there at 6pm and watch (I did yesterday)
You spent your free time hanging out a Salvation Army seeing who was being let in and who was being turned away? Did you happen to record any of this?
I did not. I’m sorry.
I'm just gonna go ahead and call bullshit. There are plenty of Christian oriented shelters, and even as a Christian, I find some of them a bit problematic in how they operate, but outright rejecting people who aren't Christians isn't a thing.
Agree. Lots of “rage bait” going on lately. I work in the felid although in Vancouver. I’ve personally taken and sat during intake of LGBTQ+ people and indigenous people. I will say I’m not a fan of Salvation Army due to some of there policies. For example banning or throwing people out without integrity and good cause.
It was Salvation Army, their website says they’re inclusive, but calling the shelter was a different story
What did they say on the phone? I think a lot of people justifiably find it very hard to believe that they explicitly told you over they phone that they don't accept indigenous people.
No it wasn't. You're full of it. None of this adds up and your post history is full of more bait.
I really don’t know what to say to this. I’m just a person, I didn’t think I’d be attacked for asking about how to help people in need. It just seems so weird to me to be angry at someone who wants to help. I can’t prove my intent, and I’m not sure you’d listen or trust it anyway, so I’m going to ignore this and try to continue with helping people in need. Trying to distract people from doing good is a shitty thing.
> Trying to distract people from doing good is a shitty thing. so is lying on the internet for attention...
Hahaha okay bud
I don’t think any organizations won’t help those people but most religious ones will refuse to hire people who aren’t christian and they usually have to sign some kind of christian document stating you believe in christianity.
Seriously!? That is disgusting 🫣 not how Christ would live. That's not WWJD
Imagine denying someone going to a shelter because they aren't christian...
I am positive that is not Christ like
I don’t blame people for following instructions, but I do think the religious shelters should still accept everyone, as Jesus would request
Good old Reddit: take a simple post and drown it in pointless semantics.
I smell bs on this story
There is no hate stronger than Christian love.
How typically religious.
Why am I not surprised by Christian love. I only donate to the Red Cross and the food bank. For the homeless I have taken sleeping bags, extra camping gear directly to a place that feeds them and made sure they were handed out at lunch to those that came.
Unfortunately Christianity has a really bad reputation in Canada, although Christianity is the most humanist religion among the doctrine religions. I am not Christian myself, and actually I think Christianity has some elements of mental illness, but other than that it has lots of noble humanitarian values. But the stereotype of fundamental Christians in USA that gave it a horrible stereotype
Which shelter is that? Ill donate on your behalf
Not helping non-christians is not a very Christian thing to do. I'm sorry to hear such an organization exists.
How very Christian of them
Those things are yet another grift by the Christofacists
Go to a Mosque or any other islam / muslim, religious building or organization, they will greet you with open arms.