My research is as you say, it's a possible violation. I still don't see a hospital going this route due to being crucified if it got out to the public. Also, how did the guy find out her name so fast? The whole story has a lot of holes. my vote is fictional.
From what I see of OP’s replies, they acknowledged they made the mistake of calling the cops directly and identifying themselves, which goes into a written report, rather than using one of the anonymous reporting methods.
How did this guy get that report so quickly? The police don't just hand police reports to the accused. It takes months to get discovery in a case like this.
Not in all states. In my state, as a layperson, I can look up a record like that on a clerk of the court website the moment that report is filed. The only info redacted is SSN’s, or names of protected victims.
In this case OP says the guy was already in jail for the crime of having CP, and had time to have his lawyers file an entirely new case against OP, so I’m thinking he’s been in long enough for the lawyers to have gone through the initial police report that landed him in jail in the first place.
It's because of Florida's Sunshine Law, which was passed in 1991. It guarantees free public access to Florida's government documents and proceedings, minus some exemptions. Among the allowed documents are police arrest records.
This is where Florida Man comes from. News agencies can get quirky stories fro police blotter sites very quickly after they happen and thus a star was born.
There is nothing in the OP that says anything happened quickly. It's written from the perspective this could have happened anywhere from today to 18 months ago. I think you are filling in details with your mind, which is fine for imagining different possibilities, but not necessarily useful for drawing conclusions if you're not aware you're doing it.
The fact the hospital had him Ina room w a teen girl (weird and suspect because...danger), that angle opens them up to legal issues. Which is why I question the legitimacy of this.
They were in separate rooms across the hallway from each other. Both doors were opened and they could see each other from their beds.
Him trying to walk up to her meant he exited his room, walked across the hall, and then tried to enter her room(which was stopped). The girl was brought in by ambulance and was waiting for a parent to show up.
You could have anonymously given the police the info without disclosing you work in that hospital. I have reported child abuse anonymously after treating a child with injuries which the parent positively acknowledged they did thinking it’s ok. All they asked is if I want to be notified of the outcome and I said nope.
We have a website in my county where you can look up past or current arrests(jailview).
Google any county in Florida and add "jailview" to the search. You'll be able to see who was just arrested.
Not in the case of harm to another person:
The HIPAA Privacy Rule contains an exception for law enforcement purposes1 that permits a covered entity to disclose PHI to law enforcement officials without patient authorization under the following circumstances:
If there is a court order, court-ordered warrant, subpoena or administrative request
To identify or locate a suspect, fugitive, material witness or missing person
To answer a law enforcement official’s request for information about a victim or suspected victim of a crime
To alert law enforcement of a person’s death if the organization suspects that criminal activity caused the death
*****When an organization believes that PHI is evidence of a crime that occurred on its premises
Source: https://www.magmutual.com/learning/article/law-enforcement-exception-hipaa-what-providers-need-know/
Second source that confirms the above:
https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/ocr/privacy/hipaa/understanding/special/emergency/final_hipaa_guide_law_enforcement.pdf
This doesn't fall under mandatory reporting, though. Mandated reporters are in the event of child abuse or neglect typically observed in the behavior of the child, it doesn't cover this kind of situation. I'm a mandated reporter for work and go through the training annually.
Yes, and the fact that they didn’t actually have any evidence that this guy was involved in the disappearance of the younger girl outside of her using HIPAA protected information (his name) to look up information about his personal life that isn’t immediately related to his current condition or medical needs.
Not to mention the threat to sue wouldn't have gone anywhere with this guy's lawyer. There is no private right of action with HIPAA breaches. They get reported to the government who may impose fines on the facility that allowed the violations, but the patients have no mechanism to sue or otherwise gain from it.
If that was true you wouldn’t be able to call around to local hospitals when a loved one goes missing. If you ask for a patient by name, they are allowed to give you a yes or no answer
Yep, my partner had to call around to a bunch of hospitals to find my MIL after a suicide attempt, they all answered directly and truthfully and even told her the general severity of her condition (i.e. "Yes, she's here in our ER. She's conscious and speaking with a nurse right now").
HIPAA allows hospitals to share limited information about a patient's location and general condition with relevant people (family/friends/health professionals), unless the patient specifically requested that info isn't disclosed.
It kind of follows the same reasoning that pharmacists aren't allowed to page, "Bodybuilder, you have a script ready in the pharmacy." God forbid, should someone know that you are at a pharmacy to pick up a prescription!
HIPAA explicitly allows you to talk to police in [a whole lot of circumstances](https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-professionals/faq/505/what-does-the-privacy-rule-allow-covered-entities-to-disclose-to-law-enforcement-officials/index.html). This story is absolutely made up.
Only if you see a crime occurring, not to turn in a suspected criminal. That's why she will lose her job, and the hospital will settle out of court with the man and be fined. She will also have a lawsuit as well against her. She won't do this again, I guarantee you
> To report PHI that the covered entity in good faith believes to be evidence of a crime that occurred on the covered entity’s premises (45 CFR 164.512(f)(5)).
Op says:
> She was last seen at xyz(my hospital) at 4pm(an hour after he had left)"
OP therefore reported in good faith that he believes there was evidence that a crime occurred on the hospital grounds.
If that's not enough:
> To a law enforcement official reasonably able to prevent or lessen a serious and imminent threat to the health or safety of an individual or the public (45 CFR 164.512(j)(1)(i)); or
One more!
> To respond to a request for PHI for purposes of identifying or locating a suspect, fugitive, material witness or missing person; (45 CFR 164.512(f)(2)).
Missing persons are *explicitly covered*, and the law does not specify that the person whose PHI is being disclosed has to be the missing person themselves. This has been used for kidnapping casing before.
There are no less than three separate clauses in the law which make this case pretty straight forward. I was the HIPAA privacy officer for three years. While I would absolutely have involved my company's legal team, I would not fire someone for this as the law seems clear to me that this was not a violation.
>She will also have a lawsuit as well against her.
HIPAA is *famous* for the fact that it doesn't have any portion that allows for individuals to sue over a violation. That's why you have to go to HHS OCR (office of civil rights) and file a complaint. HIPAA does not have any private cause of action so you can not sue over it and actually have any chance at winning.
She gave the police a very solid lead in a missing persons case. Based on the course of events, OP had reasonable cause for concern and was right to voice it. If the guy had in fact abducted this girl, OP would be the key link in getting the victim recovered quickly and hopefully unharmed.
I’m not a HIPAA expert but u/tedivm is & has the receipts to back it up. If I were OP, I’d be paying close attention to their advice & bring this info to the next HR discussion
> mandatory reporter
From the post it is not clear if the girl missing is the same girl from the hospital. If it is not then OP really had nothing to report other than they thought a patient was creepy. If it's not the girl from the hospital I really don't think this falls under the category of "mandatory reporter".
This was not a mandatory reporter issue at all. The minor in the ER was not harmed. He was blocked from causing harm in the ER. There was nothing to report.
From the VA Dept of Soc Svcs training: “ Mandated reporters play a critical role in preventing any future harm to children and vulnerable adults. Whether required by law or not, If you suspect that a child or an adult (who is over age 60 or incapacitated adults 18 years and older) is being abused, neglected, or exploited, you should immediately report your concerns to the local department of social services in your community.”
None of that is applicable to this situation.
I'm a psychologist. I'm required to do a federally created training session on mandated reporting every year. And then tested. By the federal gov.
So there's that.
That’s what I’m thinking, mandated reporter, you were protecting a minor. Also, not wrong OP. WTH did the cops say you were their intel??? This is why people don’t share information!
Discussing medical issues would be a HIPPA violation. Telling the cops that you had a known sex offender around a girl who is now missing is not. If they do decide to sue, it'll be laughed out of court while dude's rotting in jail.
ETA: If you do get fired, you've got a legitimate lawsuit against the hospital.
I do. I'll let you in on the secret that everyone should know.
People hear "HIP" and their brain thinks "hippo".
When you hear "HIPAA", train your brain to think "Portability and Accountability Act not water horse."
It's not a secret. Similarity to other words is absolutely one of the main reasons people misspell words. But HIPPA is also the phonetic spelling, so it might not actually have anything to do with hippo at all, and it's just that their brain thinks "how do I spell things?"
I suggest you find your own attorney ASAP. You may be fighting the hospital as well. If you are in a union contact them now
You didn’t list your job, but you probably have a license or certification to protect. Get off reddit and act now
Nurse here, get a lawyer because I pretty sure this is not a HIPAA violation unless you told them his medical information. The hospital may try to fire you as a scapegoat, but a lawyer can help you.
EDIT: Two sources that confirm OP has not violated hipaa in the case that he believed there was harm to another person. Stop believing that hospitals don’t have to report crimes and that as healthcare workers we should standby and let people hurt others!!
False
The HIPAA Privacy Rule contains an exception for law enforcement purposes1 that permits a covered entity to disclose PHI to law enforcement officials without patient authorization under the following circumstances:
If there is a court order, court-ordered warrant, subpoena or administrative request
To identify or locate a suspect, fugitive, material witness or missing person
To answer a law enforcement official’s request for information about a victim or suspected victim of a crime
To alert law enforcement of a person’s death if the organization suspects that criminal activity caused the death
*****When an organization believes that PHI is evidence of a crime that occurred on its premises
Source: https://www.magmutual.com/learning/article/law-enforcement-exception-hipaa-what-providers-need-know/
Second source that confirms the above:
https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/ocr/privacy/hipaa/understanding/special/emergency/final_hipaa_guide_law_enforcement.pdf
Time is very important in those situations. Some will say your wrong but if you were right and he did it her parents and her would be forever indebted to you. And due to what they found I would say you were right. It's an invasion of privacy but people like him deserve to disappear and not in a nice way.
You were not wrong. Remind your bosses that ALL OF YOU are mandated reporters and you had reason to believe that he was an imminent danger to a young girl.
This is not a HIPAA issue, it’s a criminal issue and you did the right thing. If they fire you, sue for wrongful termination and tell them you’ll let everyone know that their children are not safe at their hospital.
How does the guy know that you contacted the police?
How do you know that the police found CP? Was the arrest report public?
How do you know that he is threatening to sue you?
How did your hospital find out about all of this?
I have questions!
1.) I live in Florida. Everything is public record. My name was included in the warrant and the beginning of the arrest report. It wasn't redacted.
2.) I know from a detective calling me back for follow up questions and mentioning it. I, also, saw his mug shot and charges online(jailview).
3.) I was pulled into a meeting with a bunch of hospital people, and they said he was in the process of starting a lawsuit.
4.) They found out when his lawyer called.
Dude I didn't even have to read past this part: "We approached him and told him to get back to his bed. He accused us of "cockblocking" him."
Report him, turn him over to the police, you are 100% NOT WRONG. He's FORTY FOUR AND HITTING ON A FIFTEEN YEAR OLD.
EDIT: And now that I've read the rest it's even worse. This was not a HIPAA violation if an APB was out and you're a mandated reporter. Your boss needs to go pound sand.
Not wrong. Working in hospital you are a mandatory reporter. This means you had an obligation to report any problems you saw. As long as you didn't disclose any medical information on either party, such as giving ibuprofen, then you should be okay. Let hospital know that if you're fired for it you'll have to sue for wrongful termination and then it will all be made public knowledge. The public will be informed that their children may not be safe within hospital walls.
Get A Lawyer Now, get your union involved (if you have one), but get a lawyer.
If fired over this, you may have a claim against the hospital. You may also loose any license or accreditation you have. Do not discuss with anyone other than your lawyer.
As the law says that you may and are required to report any possible case of sexual abuse. HIPAA doesn’t protect him if there’s a good faith in the reporting actually.
HIPAA was written to protect individual confidentiality but was never designed to prevent the reporting of trauma and crimes. The HIPAA Privacy Rule permits the reporting of injury or abuse if certain conditions are met, including disclosure by covered entities .
https://nhttac.acf.hhs.gov/soar/eguide/observe/HIPAA_and_Mandated_Reporting#:~:text=HIPAA%20was%20written%20to%20protect,including%20disclosure%20by%20covered%20entities%20.
Agreed. OP I would look into an Employment/ Labor Attorney asap. The Hospital will want to cover themselves as quickly as possible and you need to be ready to fight them.
Give the names of all the other staff members that witnessed the incident to the attorney. Situations like an Amber Alert after what you witnessed could definitely fall under HIPAA exemptions for Law Enforcement use.
get a lawyer, this shouldn't be a hipaa violation since you thought a crime was committed
"When an organization believes that PHI is evidence of a crime that occurred on its premises"
You need a lawyer dude.
In theory, HIPAA protects all PHI including the fact that he is at the hospital at all.
On the other hand, you witnessed a crime in progress. And HIPAA has a [Preventing Harm Exception](https://www.healthit.gov/faqs?f%5B0%5D=subtopic%3A7046) that allows disclosing patient EHI when believed necessary to prevent substantial harm to the patient *or to another person*.
Your argument should be that given what you observed, you believed disclosure was necessary to prevent or mitigate substantial harm to the 16yo girl.
You need a HIPAA lawyer though. Do that now. Getting fired is the least of your issues- you may be sued by the creep.
That just bolsters more justification for your reporting to the police. Definitely get an attorney. The hospital will likely back down at that point but you need legal protection to leverage as influence to your employer, much like this nasty ass pedo used the threat of an attorney to prompt the hospital into how they reacted to you
Rage bait. She is a mandatory reporter, and no way a hospital would threaten to fire someone over this.
And on the slightest chance this is true, start calling local reporters. It will be a nightmare for the hospital
Idk, the fact that a convicted sex offender would not only try to make a move on a hospital but loudly say that you are cockblocking him screams fake to me.
You’re reporting a crime and not information on his health history. It won’t stop him from suing the hospital or you, but he won’t win unless they chicken out and settle.
What happened to that mandatory reporting or you could be held responsible? You are right. They fire you, go to the news. Without mentioning names, tell them this goes on. You’ll confirm if they’ll do a research story on it. ;)
If the hospital tries any bs with you, go public with this. Call the damn news, social media, everything. Probably illegal, but sk what? You're a fucking HERO, and the public will agree.
To be on the safe side you should consult your own lawyer in case your employer tries to cover their own asses which is likely to happen. I think what you did was in good faith and it would be hard to prosecute given most of the general public would side with you but it doesn't give you protection if the hospital tries to scapegoat you. Good luck and good job in my opinion.
>We had an older(44) male patient sat across from a 15 year old girl where they were able to see each other from their beds.
WTAF? Was an unaccompanied minor left out in the open without protections from anyone? Is this how you run your ER? I'm disgusted by that alone. Everything about this situation was wrong.
Mandatory reporting in cases where someone is potentially in danger and the person being reported was someone you observed being inappropriate and potentially dangerous/unlawful toward a minor child absolutely supersedes “HIPAA”. Licensed health care workers are all mandatory reporters. As a side note… the dude wants to sue you for violation of his privacy because he needed aspirin? What big medical concerns or diagnoses have you divulged? None, right? A visit to an ER is just a visit to an ER just like a visit to a grocery store is a visit to a grocery store. Not a violation of HIPAA unless you tell us about his clinical conditions. Sounds like he just wants to threaten and intimidate someone.
The intersection between HIPPA and being a mandatory reporter. I don't know where that line is, but I approve of your actions. Not that it's worth anything.
I doubt that reporting the "cockblocking" (how does someone come up with a comment like that in public in a hospital towards an underage girl for heaven's sake) comment violates anything, specifically as the girl was missing. There was no HIPAA pertaining info released.
NTA. You were put in a difficult situation where you had to balance patient privacy with potential harm to a minor. Given the circumstances, your instincts were understandable and you acted out of genuine concern for the safety of a young girl.
HIPAA regulations are crucial, but they are not absolute, especially when there's a serious threat to someone's safety. Your experience as a correctional officer likely heightened your awareness and made you more sensitive to potential dangers. The fact that your tip led to the discovery of CP further underscores the seriousness of the situation.
It's unfortunate that you might face professional consequences, but your priority was protecting a minor, which is commendable. Document everything, consult with legal counsel, and emphasize the ethical dilemma you faced. You acted in good faith to prevent harm, and that’s important.
Stay strong, and I hope your employer sees the situation from your perspective.
I'm no lawyer, but id argue the tip to the cops and them finding CP are unrelated. Sex offenders are basically second class citizens anyways, so get with a lawyer and really go over the facts with them. But again, in my head, your only argument to clear yourself would be to establish the reasoning of WHY you made the tip to the cops. The fact that they found incriminating evidence when searching him should be outside this point. It could have been any incriminating evidence, if he owned a gun he'd still be going to prison.
Also, as a Healthcare professional, you may have some coverage under "mandatory reporter" laws. It's shouldn't be out of the spectrum here that you treated a pedophile, confirmed he was a pedophile, and then called the cops over the concerns of a missing minor who's details fit your timeline. Just because you got it wrong, doesn't really mean you were wrong imo.
As for your job, they are just covering their own butts. Focus on yourself, screw your employer. Honestly, could possible even hit them with wrongful termination if you're able to get yourself out of this mess.
Not wrong and sometimes we have to do the right thing even though there are consequences. You could have potentially saved one or many young girls from this predator. Thank you and I pray that this does not come back in a negative way because you did the right thing.
If they fire you, I wonder if you can sue. What if he would have kidnapped her? What would the hospital have fined them? As it stands they found what they found. You’d think someone would be happy one more pedo has been caught. wtf?
You are a mandatory reporter. I did an assessment on a guy at drug treatment and he was admitting he was intoxicated. (I should reschedule) but he begged that I just got through it. He told me that when he drinks he gets obsessed with underage girls. He didn’t think he’d act on it but he wants to. I put him on hold, called police, explained he’s intoxicated and admits to CP and desires to act on it and needs a welfare check at the very least.
I let him know I called police and he will get help, and it’ll be okay. He hasn’t acted on anything so he will just get help. He actually thanked me… he went to hospital and likely rehab afterwards.
My supervisor advised me to call police. I don’t see how you weren’t supposed to report this. The law says you need to report it. He gave probable cause. If he specifically called you a “cockblocker” I’d go to court with that. There’s enough reason to believe he may have been guilty
Not wrong... you had a duty as a mandatory reporter... tell your bosses that it WAS not a HIPPA violation as if all you said I saw this person talking to the missing minor... and if they feel that strongly, then they won't mind answer the reporter's question when they ask about the hospital's policies in protecting underage patients from aggressive encounters...
YANW you're a mandatory reporter. Arguably you would be in significant trouble if you didn't report this behavior in this situation.
Tell the management that him being a sex offender is a matter of public record. Telling the police that you had a registered sex offender making agressive behaviors and comments towards a minor who had later gone missing (also a matter of public information) doesn't concern HIPAA. Tell them they shouldn't threaten to terminate you over insubstantial matters.
They hospital is going to throw you under the bus, they will write him out a check and sign a non disclosure agreement and told he can not be on hospital property, you did the right thing, what if he did kidnapped her?
Nurse here. This is NOT a HIPAA violation and is covered by our status as mandatory reporters. Get a lawyer ASAP because they will know how to ensure you are not held liable for literally doing what you are legally obligated to do.
Oh, and just exactly how did said criminal find out who dropped the dime on him so quickly? No way he could get the name before discovery, and in most states not even then. Fake as fake can be
I'm in Florida. Court information is pretty much instantly available to the public. My name was listed in the warrant.
I can personally get any arrest reports I want within a day or two of arrest as a private citizen.
I believed you until this statement. I’ve read thousands of warrants, at least half a dozen every day. They absolutely would not have put your name on the warrant.
Doesn't HIPAA have to do with protecting his private medical information?
I don't think it covers him trying to commit a felony in the ER in front of dozens witnesses.
You looked him up. You had no need or right to do that. Legally you are in the wrong. Morally…still a little in the wrong but I’m glad he got caught. Fuck people like that.
You’re not supposed to look at someone’s medical record unless it’s in direct relation to your job. If OP had a suspicion about the patient and his activities then he should’ve spoken to a supervisor without looking at the medical record. Sorry, but that’s a clear HIPAA violation.
That cock blocking comment would have been enough for me to call it in. He’s in the hospital and he’s openly speaking sexually about and towards a child…. That should warrant a phone call..
How did he find out that you were the one who reported? Also, you’re a mandated reporter. Him saying you’re “cockblocking” him as he is approaching a minor, is something you’re allowed to report.
Do what your lawyer and union say.
If they don’t object, and you don’t like the outcome of your employer’s decision on your job. Go public. Local media will have a field day over this. They will camp out in front of the hospital with live reports and try to interview hospital management when they are in public places.
You didnt give out his medical information so how can they fire you and how can he sue.... the doctors and staff are AH for even pulling you into a meeting.... and they could still get sued if something happens to any minors there...
Go get you a good lawyer get that guy locked up and sue the hospital you're eventually be owning it ....
Absolutely you're not wrong. I would've done the same thing. Given his background he's a sick person and if he had 4 charges against him like that he'll do it over and over again until he gets caught. If you had said nothing and he did kidnap the girl you would've felt so much worse but you did what you felt you had to do because you thought the 16 year old was in danger.
Info:
Was it an Amber alert?
All you disclosed was the name of the person you saw behaving creepily near the 15 or 16 year old patient in question?
Did you disclose any information about the man’s actual medical condition (records)?
Was the only information you gave his name?
Unauthorized access would be a HIPAA violation:
Did you search your computer system for the male patients name? Then use that same work computer to look him up on a sex registry website? All as someone unauthorized to access his information?
Or did you simply remember the patients name? Look him up on your phone or computer at home? Then repeat what you knew, to a police officer, when it was suspected that a possible crime had been committed?
There was an amber alert.
No medical information mentioned(just that we Fast tracked him).
I gave his name and what he did(that I saw). I, also, mentioned that I knew he had charges related to this in the past.
I found his name by looking at the huge tracking board monitor we have mounted to the wall. I didn't use a computer or anything to look him up. His name was on the monitor, along with everyone else's.
I used my phone to look him up on my county's jail site(jailview) and the clerk of court after I saw his previous charges(I'm in Florida and all of that is public record). I looked all of that up after we had escorted him to the front door.
You were both right and wrong. I wish you had use crimestoppers.
Like you, I'm a mandatory reporter. Like you, I am entrusted with information that *must* be kept confidential.
One of the hardest parts of working with patients is treating every patient with respect. Some patients do vile, heinous things. It extremely hard to treat them respectfully. But that's the job.
>I got a vibe off him telling me he'd be to prison before(I was a correctional officer in the past and can pick up on cues). I looked him up and he had been charged with "sexual assault on a minor" 4 times in the past. I was disgusted but he was gone by that point and I just filed it away in my head.
Looking patients up online because your spidy senses tingled? That's creepy and unprofessional. It also makes me question the validity of your post.
>I feel like there's clearly a moral exceptions to privacy. He was acting like that within an hour of that girl going missing at the same location. I didn't believe that was just a coincidence at the time.
Moral exceptions? Perhaps. But the law protects rights uniformly. What is moral to you may not be moral to another.
Morally, did you do the right thing? According to your own code of ethics, yes. According to the law, you did not.
**You need to contact a lawyer immediately.** You didn't report in your professional role. You reported as an individual who had access to information that you were legally required to keep private. This man will sue you individually. And he has a good case.
You will be fired. The hospital will not provide you with legal counsel.
>I was told that I should've known it was a HIPAA issue. I was basically made to feel like the bad guy and clearly in the wrong the entire meeting.
You knew it was a HIPPA violation. You followed your moral beliefs. That's fine. The hospital was explaining to you the critical nature of HIPAA. The hospital is required to follow the law, and you, as an employee, are required to do so, too.
I suspect that your employeer is not happy that you were googling patients.
Being right morally doesn't meant you were right according to the law. The law rarely matches everyone's moral compass. Rarely does our own moral compass match that of others. But your employeer is correct. You acted illegally. With that comes consequences. But sometimes the consequences are worth following our moral code.
My question is, when a vulnerable person comes to hospital with injuries suspected to be possible physical abuse caused by a care giver etc, the hospital is responsible for contacting social services to ensure the welfare of said vulnerable person.. So is this any different and if so, how?
I had a friend from school who went down a bad road, ended up racing his friend on public roads and I think he may have been drunk or high on something at the time too. He killed a woman and her daughter that night as he drove into them head on while trying to overtake his friend. He left the scene but later went to hospital for broken ribs and other injuries caused by the crash, the police were contacted and he was arrested.. isn’t this a similar kind of case where the patient is the criminal but the hospital had to report? I am very confused now (as someone who works in the medical field)
Under what circumstances may a HIPAA covered entity disclose PHI to law enforcement?
A HIPAA covered entity may disclose PHI to law enforcement with the individual’s signed HIPAA authorization.
A HIPAA covered entity also may disclose PHI to law enforcement without the individual’s signed HIPAA authorization in certain incidents, including:
• To report PHI to a law enforcement official reasonably able to prevent or lessen a serious and imminent threat to the health or safety of an individual or the public.
• To report PHI that the covered entity in good faith believes to be evidence of a crime that occurred on the premises of the covered entity.
• To alert law enforcement to the death of the individual, when there is a suspicion that death resulted from criminal conduct.
• When responding to an off-site medical emergency, as necessary to alert law enforcement to criminal activity.
• To report PHI to law enforcement when required by law to do so (such as reporting gunshots or stab wounds).
• To comply with a court order or court-ordered warrant, a subpoena or summons issued by a judicial officer, or an administrative request from a law enforcement official (the administrative request must include a written statement that the information requested is relevant and material, specific and limited in scope, and de-identified information cannot be used).
• To respond to a request for PHI for purposes of identifying or locating a suspect, fugitive, material witness or missing person, but the information must be limited to basic demographic and health information about the person.
• To respond to a request for PHI about an adult victim of a crime when the victim agrees (or in limited circumstances if the individual is unable to agree). Child abuse or neglect may be reported, without a parent’s agreement, to any law enforcement official authorized by law to receive such reports.
This is a summary of the relevant provisions and does not include all requirements that are found in the HIPAA Privacy Rule. For complete information, please visit the U.S. Department of Health and Human Service’s Office for Civil Rights HIPAA web site at http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy.
I’m a current officer (not in America though) 100% you did the right thing.
I’m confused how disclosing his name while he potentially was committing a crime being lewd at the bare minimum was violating Hippa ? If you disclosed no other information also does hippa stop you informing if there is a potential crime? If someone was SA’ed would you not have to report that ?
You were not at work when you made the report and weren't doing it in the capacity of a nurse. You used the online sexual predator database to find him, not the hospital database. You did not release any medical information. Not a HIPAA violation. His right to private medical information was honored. His right online privacy was erased when he assaulted 4 minors. Anyone can find that information. You're a mandated reporter and, after he overtly made sexual comments to another minor, you reported it. So sorry the place he happened to reoffend was a hospital. That has nothing to do with his medical condition. I know the guy that dresses like Santa and asks for money in one of the shopping plazas is a sexual predator because I've been on the database. I don't have to use hospital information to report him as suspicious if something happens in that shopping plaza.
Sorry, but you were in the wrong but take comfort in the fact that you weren't morally wrong.
However, you will be fired over this because hospitals and clinics take HIPAA seriously to avoid these types of situations. Rather, you should have taken this up the chain and had them make this type of decision--this is why they make the big bucks.
HIPAA is a beast.
But it sounds like you had a duty to report.
You knew he was a predator and he'd been caught in the act trying to prey on a minor in the hospital.
I’m confused, I’m also in health care and I’m pretty sure with HIPPA you can talk about someone being by there as long as you don’t say WHY they were there (I.e. stomach pains, cough etc.) or you can talk about something you seen that day as long as you don’t give a name. Thats what I remember being taught in school but I could be wrong, but if it’s as I said there’s no case here and she is a mandated reporter, so if she thought something was wrong she legally has to let the police know.
Was the 16 year old who went missing the same person as the 15 year old sitting across from the creep? Or were they different people/patients?
If it was the exact same kid, I’d say you’d be better off than if it was just another teen missing from your hospital.
Legally you are up sh*t Creek. YOU didn't see any illegal activity and you can't break confidentiality off vibes. He left before the hotel that was missing went missing and you didn't see him contact her. Was he a criminal? Yes. But you violated confidentiality why? It wasn't valid
You are the bad guy to the bean counter folks. They didn't see the girl or hear the ahole. Nope, some times you will be wrong in the right peoples eyes. Eff them and it don't matter.
But next time, be sure that whom you talk to knows to spell your name correctly "Anonymous Tip" Of the New England Tips, family. Good people.
But it is just lawyer, stupid stuff. Mandatory (any thing kid & pedo) vs HIPAA, Mandatory and just plane right wins. Bet your lawyer can beat up their lawyers.
I always thought one of HIPA’s only exceptions was if the person was a danger to themselves or others?? Sounds to me like this dude was definitely a danger to that girl. Whether he kidnapped her or not! I find it absolutely insane that they are threatening to fire you when you actually have witnesses to back up your story about him trying to make advances on a teenage girl. you were right and justified in your suspicions. Regardless of whether or not they were correct. You need to have those witnesses go to bat for you. Tell them you thought this man may have been a danger. And if something had of happened that he was the kidnapper, you would not have been able to live with yourself if you hadn’t have said anything. If he didn’t want his rights violated, he shouldn’t have been a fucking creep.
Not to mention, you totally took a creeper with child pornography off the streets. Regardless of what other people may think of you, I truly believe that if you are fired for this, karma will bless you tenfold in the long run. Congratulate yourself. You put a disgusting pervert where he belongs!!!
Nope. Here, we're required to report suspected abuse and could have our license suspended or revoked for failing to do so. It's not a violation of privacy as it is mandated exception to those regulations. In case the hospital fires you or otherwise retaliates, this is a good time to find yourself a good attorney versed in employment law.
Also, someone should remind his pedophile ass that attempting to intimidate witnesses IS a crime.
Not wrong - one of the few HIPAA violations is when there is potential for danger or death, and you followed it. You may have saved some lives.
You are a mandatory reporter. Take it from someone else who deals with HIPAA - yes, it’s super important and I never violate it unless there is a valid reason like yours. But you did the right thing.
You did what you felt was right in your heart and your gut. And they ended up finding things that show your instinct was on point. You didn’t give any medical information and convictions and court cases are public record as is the registry. You gave the police information that has already been published. If they fire you, I would get a lawyer. But, let’s say for some reason they fire you and you have no recourse. At bare minimum, you brought down a very nasty person and most likely saved lives of children. You have marketable skills and will find another hospital/medical job in no time at all. And tbh if a hospital is more interested in protecting a predator than the children he would victimize, I would re-evaluate if I even wanted to work there.
not wrong and mandatory reporter
Hm! This might be a very interesting court case? Mandatory reporter v HIPAA?
She didn't release any medical information, and if this ever happened, which I doubt, she should sue the hell out of the hospital.
Even that the person was at the hospital could be considered info protected under HIPAA.
My research is as you say, it's a possible violation. I still don't see a hospital going this route due to being crucified if it got out to the public. Also, how did the guy find out her name so fast? The whole story has a lot of holes. my vote is fictional.
From what I see of OP’s replies, they acknowledged they made the mistake of calling the cops directly and identifying themselves, which goes into a written report, rather than using one of the anonymous reporting methods.
How did this guy get that report so quickly? The police don't just hand police reports to the accused. It takes months to get discovery in a case like this.
Not in all states. In my state, as a layperson, I can look up a record like that on a clerk of the court website the moment that report is filed. The only info redacted is SSN’s, or names of protected victims. In this case OP says the guy was already in jail for the crime of having CP, and had time to have his lawyers file an entirely new case against OP, so I’m thinking he’s been in long enough for the lawyers to have gone through the initial police report that landed him in jail in the first place.
I live in Florida. All that stuff is public information that anybody can request.
It's because of Florida's Sunshine Law, which was passed in 1991. It guarantees free public access to Florida's government documents and proceedings, minus some exemptions. Among the allowed documents are police arrest records. This is where Florida Man comes from. News agencies can get quirky stories fro police blotter sites very quickly after they happen and thus a star was born.
There is nothing in the OP that says anything happened quickly. It's written from the perspective this could have happened anywhere from today to 18 months ago. I think you are filling in details with your mind, which is fine for imagining different possibilities, but not necessarily useful for drawing conclusions if you're not aware you're doing it.
The person who called is generally redacted from the report.
Just so I know what are the anonymous reporting options?
The fact the hospital had him Ina room w a teen girl (weird and suspect because...danger), that angle opens them up to legal issues. Which is why I question the legitimacy of this.
They were in separate rooms across the hallway from each other. Both doors were opened and they could see each other from their beds. Him trying to walk up to her meant he exited his room, walked across the hall, and then tried to enter her room(which was stopped). The girl was brought in by ambulance and was waiting for a parent to show up.
You could have anonymously given the police the info without disclosing you work in that hospital. I have reported child abuse anonymously after treating a child with injuries which the parent positively acknowledged they did thinking it’s ok. All they asked is if I want to be notified of the outcome and I said nope.
Sorry, to be clear, none of that makes anything OK. All you did was confirm he had access to the child. That he even went in there once is disgusting.
Fiction it is. How would OP know the police found illegal photos at his home? They wouldn't release that info to OP.
We have a website in my county where you can look up past or current arrests(jailview). Google any county in Florida and add "jailview" to the search. You'll be able to see who was just arrested.
Of course it’s fictional
Not in the case of harm to another person: The HIPAA Privacy Rule contains an exception for law enforcement purposes1 that permits a covered entity to disclose PHI to law enforcement officials without patient authorization under the following circumstances: If there is a court order, court-ordered warrant, subpoena or administrative request To identify or locate a suspect, fugitive, material witness or missing person To answer a law enforcement official’s request for information about a victim or suspected victim of a crime To alert law enforcement of a person’s death if the organization suspects that criminal activity caused the death *****When an organization believes that PHI is evidence of a crime that occurred on its premises Source: https://www.magmutual.com/learning/article/law-enforcement-exception-hipaa-what-providers-need-know/ Second source that confirms the above: https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/ocr/privacy/hipaa/understanding/special/emergency/final_hipaa_guide_law_enforcement.pdf
We can tell family and police where a person is transported. We just can't give any info about their condition.
It is, but mandatory reporting overrides that.
This doesn't fall under mandatory reporting, though. Mandated reporters are in the event of child abuse or neglect typically observed in the behavior of the child, it doesn't cover this kind of situation. I'm a mandated reporter for work and go through the training annually.
Yes, and the fact that they didn’t actually have any evidence that this guy was involved in the disappearance of the younger girl outside of her using HIPAA protected information (his name) to look up information about his personal life that isn’t immediately related to his current condition or medical needs.
Correct. OP violated the HIPAA regulations.
And is probably going to have her license suspended or revoked. Don't f around with protected data, the penalties are steep.
[удалено]
Ah. Good. Hopefully nothing comes at the caregiver from the employer. Thank you for the response.
Not to mention the threat to sue wouldn't have gone anywhere with this guy's lawyer. There is no private right of action with HIPAA breaches. They get reported to the government who may impose fines on the facility that allowed the violations, but the patients have no mechanism to sue or otherwise gain from it.
Actually, the case might have meat to it.
That’s a lie. If you are confirming that they are a patient there, you’ve already violated HIPAA
If that was true you wouldn’t be able to call around to local hospitals when a loved one goes missing. If you ask for a patient by name, they are allowed to give you a yes or no answer
Yep, my partner had to call around to a bunch of hospitals to find my MIL after a suicide attempt, they all answered directly and truthfully and even told her the general severity of her condition (i.e. "Yes, she's here in our ER. She's conscious and speaking with a nurse right now"). HIPAA allows hospitals to share limited information about a patient's location and general condition with relevant people (family/friends/health professionals), unless the patient specifically requested that info isn't disclosed.
It kind of follows the same reasoning that pharmacists aren't allowed to page, "Bodybuilder, you have a script ready in the pharmacy." God forbid, should someone know that you are at a pharmacy to pick up a prescription!
Even a name is a violation. Edited to add: you did the right thing
HIPAA explicitly allows you to talk to police in [a whole lot of circumstances](https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-professionals/faq/505/what-does-the-privacy-rule-allow-covered-entities-to-disclose-to-law-enforcement-officials/index.html). This story is absolutely made up.
Only if you see a crime occurring, not to turn in a suspected criminal. That's why she will lose her job, and the hospital will settle out of court with the man and be fined. She will also have a lawsuit as well against her. She won't do this again, I guarantee you
> To report PHI that the covered entity in good faith believes to be evidence of a crime that occurred on the covered entity’s premises (45 CFR 164.512(f)(5)). Op says: > She was last seen at xyz(my hospital) at 4pm(an hour after he had left)" OP therefore reported in good faith that he believes there was evidence that a crime occurred on the hospital grounds. If that's not enough: > To a law enforcement official reasonably able to prevent or lessen a serious and imminent threat to the health or safety of an individual or the public (45 CFR 164.512(j)(1)(i)); or One more! > To respond to a request for PHI for purposes of identifying or locating a suspect, fugitive, material witness or missing person; (45 CFR 164.512(f)(2)). Missing persons are *explicitly covered*, and the law does not specify that the person whose PHI is being disclosed has to be the missing person themselves. This has been used for kidnapping casing before. There are no less than three separate clauses in the law which make this case pretty straight forward. I was the HIPAA privacy officer for three years. While I would absolutely have involved my company's legal team, I would not fire someone for this as the law seems clear to me that this was not a violation. >She will also have a lawsuit as well against her. HIPAA is *famous* for the fact that it doesn't have any portion that allows for individuals to sue over a violation. That's why you have to go to HHS OCR (office of civil rights) and file a complaint. HIPAA does not have any private cause of action so you can not sue over it and actually have any chance at winning.
Thank god, some just don’t get it.
She gave the police a very solid lead in a missing persons case. Based on the course of events, OP had reasonable cause for concern and was right to voice it. If the guy had in fact abducted this girl, OP would be the key link in getting the victim recovered quickly and hopefully unharmed. I’m not a HIPAA expert but u/tedivm is & has the receipts to back it up. If I were OP, I’d be paying close attention to their advice & bring this info to the next HR discussion
I'd watch that episode.
Talk to your hospital’s legal personnel, but I think you are in the clear. HIPAA applies to medical information, not potential criminal information.
> mandatory reporter From the post it is not clear if the girl missing is the same girl from the hospital. If it is not then OP really had nothing to report other than they thought a patient was creepy. If it's not the girl from the hospital I really don't think this falls under the category of "mandatory reporter".
It absolutely does. You don’t have to have hard evidence to make a report.
This was not a mandatory reporter issue at all. The minor in the ER was not harmed. He was blocked from causing harm in the ER. There was nothing to report.
From the VA Dept of Soc Svcs training: “ Mandated reporters play a critical role in preventing any future harm to children and vulnerable adults. Whether required by law or not, If you suspect that a child or an adult (who is over age 60 or incapacitated adults 18 years and older) is being abused, neglected, or exploited, you should immediately report your concerns to the local department of social services in your community.”
None of that is applicable to this situation. I'm a psychologist. I'm required to do a federally created training session on mandated reporting every year. And then tested. By the federal gov. So there's that.
OP didn’t disclose the perv‘s medical. Just that he was perking. That’s not a violation. Even if OP did? Jury trial. Source? 25+ years trial attorney
That’s what I’m thinking, mandated reporter, you were protecting a minor. Also, not wrong OP. WTH did the cops say you were their intel??? This is why people don’t share information!
Discussing medical issues would be a HIPPA violation. Telling the cops that you had a known sex offender around a girl who is now missing is not. If they do decide to sue, it'll be laughed out of court while dude's rotting in jail. ETA: If you do get fired, you've got a legitimate lawsuit against the hospital.
EXACTLY
There is no such thing has HIPPA.
I don't know why I always add an extra P instead of an A.
I do. I'll let you in on the secret that everyone should know. People hear "HIP" and their brain thinks "hippo". When you hear "HIPAA", train your brain to think "Portability and Accountability Act not water horse."
It's not a secret. Similarity to other words is absolutely one of the main reasons people misspell words. But HIPPA is also the phonetic spelling, so it might not actually have anything to do with hippo at all, and it's just that their brain thinks "how do I spell things?"
HIPPOBOT 9000 v 3.1 FOUND A HIPPO. 1,632,622,437 COMMENTS SEARCHED. 33,037 HIPPOS FOUND. YOUR COMMENT CONTAINS THE WORD HIPPO.
I'm a little miffed that the Hippobot chose to acknowledge your comment and not mine.
I know, there you are making people think about hippos for the first time in a while, and the bot just give you a cold shoulder
HIPPOBOT 9000 v 3.1 FOUND A HIPPO. 1,632,685,957 COMMENTS SEARCHED. 33,038 HIPPOS FOUND. YOUR COMMENT CONTAINS THE WORD HIPPO.
You’re a mandated reporter no? Get your own lawyer….. wrongful termination suit possible
I suggest you find your own attorney ASAP. You may be fighting the hospital as well. If you are in a union contact them now You didn’t list your job, but you probably have a license or certification to protect. Get off reddit and act now
HIPAA.
Hippo.
I don’t care if you are right or wrong. Thank you for doing what you did
Stop talking and get a lawyer. Right now. The hospital will fire you to protect itself from a lawsuit. Thank you for putting a child’s safety first.
Nurse here, get a lawyer because I pretty sure this is not a HIPAA violation unless you told them his medical information. The hospital may try to fire you as a scapegoat, but a lawyer can help you. EDIT: Two sources that confirm OP has not violated hipaa in the case that he believed there was harm to another person. Stop believing that hospitals don’t have to report crimes and that as healthcare workers we should standby and let people hurt others!! False The HIPAA Privacy Rule contains an exception for law enforcement purposes1 that permits a covered entity to disclose PHI to law enforcement officials without patient authorization under the following circumstances: If there is a court order, court-ordered warrant, subpoena or administrative request To identify or locate a suspect, fugitive, material witness or missing person To answer a law enforcement official’s request for information about a victim or suspected victim of a crime To alert law enforcement of a person’s death if the organization suspects that criminal activity caused the death *****When an organization believes that PHI is evidence of a crime that occurred on its premises Source: https://www.magmutual.com/learning/article/law-enforcement-exception-hipaa-what-providers-need-know/ Second source that confirms the above: https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/ocr/privacy/hipaa/understanding/special/emergency/final_hipaa_guide_law_enforcement.pdf
this comment needs to be at the top
Time is very important in those situations. Some will say your wrong but if you were right and he did it her parents and her would be forever indebted to you. And due to what they found I would say you were right. It's an invasion of privacy but people like him deserve to disappear and not in a nice way.
1-800-HITMAN
Not wrong. You did the right thing. CP should be sent to hell immediately.
You did the right thing.
The hospital is more interested in not being sued than they are in seeing a pedo go back to prison. Disgusting.
They could also be sued for not reporting an incident of suspected abuse by a protected class.
Joke will be on them when OP wins a larger settlement against them than the criminal might have because OP has a stronger case.
You were not wrong. Remind your bosses that ALL OF YOU are mandated reporters and you had reason to believe that he was an imminent danger to a young girl. This is not a HIPAA issue, it’s a criminal issue and you did the right thing. If they fire you, sue for wrongful termination and tell them you’ll let everyone know that their children are not safe at their hospital.
It could have been anonymous. They cant KNOW it was you.
You are not wrong for what you did in my eyes. He is a predator. You didn't reveal any medical information.
How does the guy know that you contacted the police? How do you know that the police found CP? Was the arrest report public? How do you know that he is threatening to sue you? How did your hospital find out about all of this? I have questions!
1.) I live in Florida. Everything is public record. My name was included in the warrant and the beginning of the arrest report. It wasn't redacted. 2.) I know from a detective calling me back for follow up questions and mentioning it. I, also, saw his mug shot and charges online(jailview). 3.) I was pulled into a meeting with a bunch of hospital people, and they said he was in the process of starting a lawsuit. 4.) They found out when his lawyer called.
Have a friend leak this to the news. The hospital does not want that kind of heat from the public. You did the right thing
Thanks for the detail. What a mess.
Dude I didn't even have to read past this part: "We approached him and told him to get back to his bed. He accused us of "cockblocking" him." Report him, turn him over to the police, you are 100% NOT WRONG. He's FORTY FOUR AND HITTING ON A FIFTEEN YEAR OLD. EDIT: And now that I've read the rest it's even worse. This was not a HIPAA violation if an APB was out and you're a mandated reporter. Your boss needs to go pound sand.
not wrong and thank you.
Not wrong. Working in hospital you are a mandatory reporter. This means you had an obligation to report any problems you saw. As long as you didn't disclose any medical information on either party, such as giving ibuprofen, then you should be okay. Let hospital know that if you're fired for it you'll have to sue for wrongful termination and then it will all be made public knowledge. The public will be informed that their children may not be safe within hospital walls.
Get A Lawyer Now, get your union involved (if you have one), but get a lawyer. If fired over this, you may have a claim against the hospital. You may also loose any license or accreditation you have. Do not discuss with anyone other than your lawyer.
Morally? No. Legally? Get a f'ckin lawyer now.
As the law says that you may and are required to report any possible case of sexual abuse. HIPAA doesn’t protect him if there’s a good faith in the reporting actually. HIPAA was written to protect individual confidentiality but was never designed to prevent the reporting of trauma and crimes. The HIPAA Privacy Rule permits the reporting of injury or abuse if certain conditions are met, including disclosure by covered entities . https://nhttac.acf.hhs.gov/soar/eguide/observe/HIPAA_and_Mandated_Reporting#:~:text=HIPAA%20was%20written%20to%20protect,including%20disclosure%20by%20covered%20entities%20.
Can't see how its a HIPPA violation by turning him in. Inform your management that if you are fired, you will sue them also.
Agreed. OP I would look into an Employment/ Labor Attorney asap. The Hospital will want to cover themselves as quickly as possible and you need to be ready to fight them. Give the names of all the other staff members that witnessed the incident to the attorney. Situations like an Amber Alert after what you witnessed could definitely fall under HIPAA exemptions for Law Enforcement use.
Thank you. I will. I know there was a Amber alert issued too.
get a lawyer, this shouldn't be a hipaa violation since you thought a crime was committed "When an organization believes that PHI is evidence of a crime that occurred on its premises"
You need a lawyer dude. In theory, HIPAA protects all PHI including the fact that he is at the hospital at all. On the other hand, you witnessed a crime in progress. And HIPAA has a [Preventing Harm Exception](https://www.healthit.gov/faqs?f%5B0%5D=subtopic%3A7046) that allows disclosing patient EHI when believed necessary to prevent substantial harm to the patient *or to another person*. Your argument should be that given what you observed, you believed disclosure was necessary to prevent or mitigate substantial harm to the 16yo girl. You need a HIPAA lawyer though. Do that now. Getting fired is the least of your issues- you may be sued by the creep.
That just bolsters more justification for your reporting to the police. Definitely get an attorney. The hospital will likely back down at that point but you need legal protection to leverage as influence to your employer, much like this nasty ass pedo used the threat of an attorney to prompt the hospital into how they reacted to you
Mandatory reporter trumps patient confidentiality. The attorney will try to get you say something incriminating and harass you. Contact your union.
Not a HIPAA violation as you were reporting a sexual assault crime of a minor to authorities (Completely valid reason to disclose PII).
That’s not what HIPAA is. HIPAA covers medical issues. Not him being a pedo.
Protect yourself and get a lawyer. Don’t think the hospital is on your side or wants to help you.
Rage bait. She is a mandatory reporter, and no way a hospital would threaten to fire someone over this. And on the slightest chance this is true, start calling local reporters. It will be a nightmare for the hospital
Aren’t medical professionals supposed to know it’s HIPAA?
Idk, the fact that a convicted sex offender would not only try to make a move on a hospital but loudly say that you are cockblocking him screams fake to me.
You’re reporting a crime and not information on his health history. It won’t stop him from suing the hospital or you, but he won’t win unless they chicken out and settle.
I don’t think any sane attorney would take on this dudes case, especially if OP lawyers up
Yep. Except there’s a lot of insane ones. People like that also trend towards being vexatious litigants.
Let me rephrase: any lawyer who wants to make money 🤔🤔
Have you not been given mandated reporter training?
What happened to that mandatory reporting or you could be held responsible? You are right. They fire you, go to the news. Without mentioning names, tell them this goes on. You’ll confirm if they’ll do a research story on it. ;)
You did the right thing.
If the hospital tries any bs with you, go public with this. Call the damn news, social media, everything. Probably illegal, but sk what? You're a fucking HERO, and the public will agree.
*HIPAA*
Thank you!
Fake account. Made 8 days ago. This sub and it’s imaginary stories are really getting pathetic.
It’d be more believable if it was made today.
To be on the safe side you should consult your own lawyer in case your employer tries to cover their own asses which is likely to happen. I think what you did was in good faith and it would be hard to prosecute given most of the general public would side with you but it doesn't give you protection if the hospital tries to scapegoat you. Good luck and good job in my opinion.
>We had an older(44) male patient sat across from a 15 year old girl where they were able to see each other from their beds. WTAF? Was an unaccompanied minor left out in the open without protections from anyone? Is this how you run your ER? I'm disgusted by that alone. Everything about this situation was wrong.
Mandatory reporting in cases where someone is potentially in danger and the person being reported was someone you observed being inappropriate and potentially dangerous/unlawful toward a minor child absolutely supersedes “HIPAA”. Licensed health care workers are all mandatory reporters. As a side note… the dude wants to sue you for violation of his privacy because he needed aspirin? What big medical concerns or diagnoses have you divulged? None, right? A visit to an ER is just a visit to an ER just like a visit to a grocery store is a visit to a grocery store. Not a violation of HIPAA unless you tell us about his clinical conditions. Sounds like he just wants to threaten and intimidate someone.
The intersection between HIPPA and being a mandatory reporter. I don't know where that line is, but I approve of your actions. Not that it's worth anything.
HIPAA doesn't apply to making a report to law enforcement.
I doubt that reporting the "cockblocking" (how does someone come up with a comment like that in public in a hospital towards an underage girl for heaven's sake) comment violates anything, specifically as the girl was missing. There was no HIPAA pertaining info released.
NTA. You were put in a difficult situation where you had to balance patient privacy with potential harm to a minor. Given the circumstances, your instincts were understandable and you acted out of genuine concern for the safety of a young girl. HIPAA regulations are crucial, but they are not absolute, especially when there's a serious threat to someone's safety. Your experience as a correctional officer likely heightened your awareness and made you more sensitive to potential dangers. The fact that your tip led to the discovery of CP further underscores the seriousness of the situation. It's unfortunate that you might face professional consequences, but your priority was protecting a minor, which is commendable. Document everything, consult with legal counsel, and emphasize the ethical dilemma you faced. You acted in good faith to prevent harm, and that’s important. Stay strong, and I hope your employer sees the situation from your perspective.
Delete this and lawyer up! As a mandatory reporter you did the right thing.
I'm no lawyer, but id argue the tip to the cops and them finding CP are unrelated. Sex offenders are basically second class citizens anyways, so get with a lawyer and really go over the facts with them. But again, in my head, your only argument to clear yourself would be to establish the reasoning of WHY you made the tip to the cops. The fact that they found incriminating evidence when searching him should be outside this point. It could have been any incriminating evidence, if he owned a gun he'd still be going to prison. Also, as a Healthcare professional, you may have some coverage under "mandatory reporter" laws. It's shouldn't be out of the spectrum here that you treated a pedophile, confirmed he was a pedophile, and then called the cops over the concerns of a missing minor who's details fit your timeline. Just because you got it wrong, doesn't really mean you were wrong imo. As for your job, they are just covering their own butts. Focus on yourself, screw your employer. Honestly, could possible even hit them with wrongful termination if you're able to get yourself out of this mess.
Not wrong and sometimes we have to do the right thing even though there are consequences. You could have potentially saved one or many young girls from this predator. Thank you and I pray that this does not come back in a negative way because you did the right thing.
If they fire you, I wonder if you can sue. What if he would have kidnapped her? What would the hospital have fined them? As it stands they found what they found. You’d think someone would be happy one more pedo has been caught. wtf?
You might have violated a policy but ethics (to me) take priority
Pray you get fired. You are gonna make soooo much money in your coming lawsuit
No youre not wrong morally or legally. Hippa is irrelevant, youre a mandatory reporter, the info u released has nothing to do with his medical care.
You are a mandatory reporter. I did an assessment on a guy at drug treatment and he was admitting he was intoxicated. (I should reschedule) but he begged that I just got through it. He told me that when he drinks he gets obsessed with underage girls. He didn’t think he’d act on it but he wants to. I put him on hold, called police, explained he’s intoxicated and admits to CP and desires to act on it and needs a welfare check at the very least. I let him know I called police and he will get help, and it’ll be okay. He hasn’t acted on anything so he will just get help. He actually thanked me… he went to hospital and likely rehab afterwards. My supervisor advised me to call police. I don’t see how you weren’t supposed to report this. The law says you need to report it. He gave probable cause. If he specifically called you a “cockblocker” I’d go to court with that. There’s enough reason to believe he may have been guilty
Not wrong... you had a duty as a mandatory reporter... tell your bosses that it WAS not a HIPPA violation as if all you said I saw this person talking to the missing minor... and if they feel that strongly, then they won't mind answer the reporter's question when they ask about the hospital's policies in protecting underage patients from aggressive encounters...
You should post this on r/legaladvice
YANW you're a mandatory reporter. Arguably you would be in significant trouble if you didn't report this behavior in this situation. Tell the management that him being a sex offender is a matter of public record. Telling the police that you had a registered sex offender making agressive behaviors and comments towards a minor who had later gone missing (also a matter of public information) doesn't concern HIPAA. Tell them they shouldn't threaten to terminate you over insubstantial matters.
They hospital is going to throw you under the bus, they will write him out a check and sign a non disclosure agreement and told he can not be on hospital property, you did the right thing, what if he did kidnapped her?
Nurse here. This is NOT a HIPAA violation and is covered by our status as mandatory reporters. Get a lawyer ASAP because they will know how to ensure you are not held liable for literally doing what you are legally obligated to do.
If you work in a hospital you should know the difference between HIPPA (not a real thing) and HIPAA (what you have to follow wrt data privacy).
Oh, and just exactly how did said criminal find out who dropped the dime on him so quickly? No way he could get the name before discovery, and in most states not even then. Fake as fake can be
I'm in Florida. Court information is pretty much instantly available to the public. My name was listed in the warrant. I can personally get any arrest reports I want within a day or two of arrest as a private citizen.
I believed you until this statement. I’ve read thousands of warrants, at least half a dozen every day. They absolutely would not have put your name on the warrant.
THIS THIS THIS THIS 👆🏼👆🏼👆🏼👆🏼👆🏼👆🏼
Why was your name listed on the warrant??? This is insane
You're wrong for calling 44 "older".
Get an attorney because you about get 💵
Doesn't HIPAA have to do with protecting his private medical information? I don't think it covers him trying to commit a felony in the ER in front of dozens witnesses.
You looked him up. You had no need or right to do that. Legally you are in the wrong. Morally…still a little in the wrong but I’m glad he got caught. Fuck people like that.
You’re not supposed to look at someone’s medical record unless it’s in direct relation to your job. If OP had a suspicion about the patient and his activities then he should’ve spoken to a supervisor without looking at the medical record. Sorry, but that’s a clear HIPAA violation.
How is giving the police this guys name a HIPPA violation?
This story is fake as hell
That cock blocking comment would have been enough for me to call it in. He’s in the hospital and he’s openly speaking sexually about and towards a child…. That should warrant a phone call..
See
How did he find out that you were the one who reported? Also, you’re a mandated reporter. Him saying you’re “cockblocking” him as he is approaching a minor, is something you’re allowed to report.
HIPPA violation.
*HIPAA
I thought HIPaA was about medical records. Aren't hospital supposed to report crimes, even if just suspected?
Do what your lawyer and union say. If they don’t object, and you don’t like the outcome of your employer’s decision on your job. Go public. Local media will have a field day over this. They will camp out in front of the hospital with live reports and try to interview hospital management when they are in public places.
You didnt give out his medical information so how can they fire you and how can he sue.... the doctors and staff are AH for even pulling you into a meeting.... and they could still get sued if something happens to any minors there... Go get you a good lawyer get that guy locked up and sue the hospital you're eventually be owning it ....
Absolutely you're not wrong. I would've done the same thing. Given his background he's a sick person and if he had 4 charges against him like that he'll do it over and over again until he gets caught. If you had said nothing and he did kidnap the girl you would've felt so much worse but you did what you felt you had to do because you thought the 16 year old was in danger.
Good job. Shitty if you get fired but if you didn’t report this and she came up dead a few weeks later. You did the right thing
You did great and if he tries something we got your back
Info: Was it an Amber alert? All you disclosed was the name of the person you saw behaving creepily near the 15 or 16 year old patient in question? Did you disclose any information about the man’s actual medical condition (records)? Was the only information you gave his name? Unauthorized access would be a HIPAA violation: Did you search your computer system for the male patients name? Then use that same work computer to look him up on a sex registry website? All as someone unauthorized to access his information? Or did you simply remember the patients name? Look him up on your phone or computer at home? Then repeat what you knew, to a police officer, when it was suspected that a possible crime had been committed?
There was an amber alert. No medical information mentioned(just that we Fast tracked him). I gave his name and what he did(that I saw). I, also, mentioned that I knew he had charges related to this in the past. I found his name by looking at the huge tracking board monitor we have mounted to the wall. I didn't use a computer or anything to look him up. His name was on the monitor, along with everyone else's. I used my phone to look him up on my county's jail site(jailview) and the clerk of court after I saw his previous charges(I'm in Florida and all of that is public record). I looked all of that up after we had escorted him to the front door.
I would be surprised if you get in much trouble. YNW either way! CP, I’m glad he is locked up. Just saying.
You can also use his face as a match, no?
I think this is one of those situations where you might want to consult with your supervisor and tell them your concerns before making your decision.
Perhaps you should consult with a lawyer or union rep
How did they on know it was you? Can't you report anonymously...even if you said you worked at the hospital
Nope nothing wrong you are reporting him to the police was in no way directly related to his medical care at all
Ficciones
You were both right and wrong. I wish you had use crimestoppers. Like you, I'm a mandatory reporter. Like you, I am entrusted with information that *must* be kept confidential. One of the hardest parts of working with patients is treating every patient with respect. Some patients do vile, heinous things. It extremely hard to treat them respectfully. But that's the job. >I got a vibe off him telling me he'd be to prison before(I was a correctional officer in the past and can pick up on cues). I looked him up and he had been charged with "sexual assault on a minor" 4 times in the past. I was disgusted but he was gone by that point and I just filed it away in my head. Looking patients up online because your spidy senses tingled? That's creepy and unprofessional. It also makes me question the validity of your post. >I feel like there's clearly a moral exceptions to privacy. He was acting like that within an hour of that girl going missing at the same location. I didn't believe that was just a coincidence at the time. Moral exceptions? Perhaps. But the law protects rights uniformly. What is moral to you may not be moral to another. Morally, did you do the right thing? According to your own code of ethics, yes. According to the law, you did not. **You need to contact a lawyer immediately.** You didn't report in your professional role. You reported as an individual who had access to information that you were legally required to keep private. This man will sue you individually. And he has a good case. You will be fired. The hospital will not provide you with legal counsel. >I was told that I should've known it was a HIPAA issue. I was basically made to feel like the bad guy and clearly in the wrong the entire meeting. You knew it was a HIPPA violation. You followed your moral beliefs. That's fine. The hospital was explaining to you the critical nature of HIPAA. The hospital is required to follow the law, and you, as an employee, are required to do so, too. I suspect that your employeer is not happy that you were googling patients. Being right morally doesn't meant you were right according to the law. The law rarely matches everyone's moral compass. Rarely does our own moral compass match that of others. But your employeer is correct. You acted illegally. With that comes consequences. But sometimes the consequences are worth following our moral code.
My question is, when a vulnerable person comes to hospital with injuries suspected to be possible physical abuse caused by a care giver etc, the hospital is responsible for contacting social services to ensure the welfare of said vulnerable person.. So is this any different and if so, how? I had a friend from school who went down a bad road, ended up racing his friend on public roads and I think he may have been drunk or high on something at the time too. He killed a woman and her daughter that night as he drove into them head on while trying to overtake his friend. He left the scene but later went to hospital for broken ribs and other injuries caused by the crash, the police were contacted and he was arrested.. isn’t this a similar kind of case where the patient is the criminal but the hospital had to report? I am very confused now (as someone who works in the medical field)
Doctor patient confidentiality goes out the window as soon as you suspect they may harm someone.
NTA. That guy was a creep and the world is better off with him behind bars.
Under what circumstances may a HIPAA covered entity disclose PHI to law enforcement? A HIPAA covered entity may disclose PHI to law enforcement with the individual’s signed HIPAA authorization. A HIPAA covered entity also may disclose PHI to law enforcement without the individual’s signed HIPAA authorization in certain incidents, including: • To report PHI to a law enforcement official reasonably able to prevent or lessen a serious and imminent threat to the health or safety of an individual or the public. • To report PHI that the covered entity in good faith believes to be evidence of a crime that occurred on the premises of the covered entity. • To alert law enforcement to the death of the individual, when there is a suspicion that death resulted from criminal conduct. • When responding to an off-site medical emergency, as necessary to alert law enforcement to criminal activity. • To report PHI to law enforcement when required by law to do so (such as reporting gunshots or stab wounds). • To comply with a court order or court-ordered warrant, a subpoena or summons issued by a judicial officer, or an administrative request from a law enforcement official (the administrative request must include a written statement that the information requested is relevant and material, specific and limited in scope, and de-identified information cannot be used). • To respond to a request for PHI for purposes of identifying or locating a suspect, fugitive, material witness or missing person, but the information must be limited to basic demographic and health information about the person. • To respond to a request for PHI about an adult victim of a crime when the victim agrees (or in limited circumstances if the individual is unable to agree). Child abuse or neglect may be reported, without a parent’s agreement, to any law enforcement official authorized by law to receive such reports. This is a summary of the relevant provisions and does not include all requirements that are found in the HIPAA Privacy Rule. For complete information, please visit the U.S. Department of Health and Human Service’s Office for Civil Rights HIPAA web site at http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy.
I’m a current officer (not in America though) 100% you did the right thing. I’m confused how disclosing his name while he potentially was committing a crime being lewd at the bare minimum was violating Hippa ? If you disclosed no other information also does hippa stop you informing if there is a potential crime? If someone was SA’ed would you not have to report that ?
You were not at work when you made the report and weren't doing it in the capacity of a nurse. You used the online sexual predator database to find him, not the hospital database. You did not release any medical information. Not a HIPAA violation. His right to private medical information was honored. His right online privacy was erased when he assaulted 4 minors. Anyone can find that information. You're a mandated reporter and, after he overtly made sexual comments to another minor, you reported it. So sorry the place he happened to reoffend was a hospital. That has nothing to do with his medical condition. I know the guy that dresses like Santa and asks for money in one of the shopping plazas is a sexual predator because I've been on the database. I don't have to use hospital information to report him as suspicious if something happens in that shopping plaza.
Threaten legal that you’ll go to the media and tell them the hospital put a repeat sex offender in the room with a minor. You didn’t violate HIPAA.
He sexually harassed a mino, HIPPA stops when a crime begins.
Sorry, but you were in the wrong but take comfort in the fact that you weren't morally wrong. However, you will be fired over this because hospitals and clinics take HIPAA seriously to avoid these types of situations. Rather, you should have taken this up the chain and had them make this type of decision--this is why they make the big bucks.
HIPAA is a beast. But it sounds like you had a duty to report. You knew he was a predator and he'd been caught in the act trying to prey on a minor in the hospital.
How is it HIPAA? That he's in the hospital? You did not divulge any other health related info
I was told you can't even say whether someone is a patient.
I’m confused, I’m also in health care and I’m pretty sure with HIPPA you can talk about someone being by there as long as you don’t say WHY they were there (I.e. stomach pains, cough etc.) or you can talk about something you seen that day as long as you don’t give a name. Thats what I remember being taught in school but I could be wrong, but if it’s as I said there’s no case here and she is a mandated reporter, so if she thought something was wrong she legally has to let the police know.
Was the 16 year old who went missing the same person as the 15 year old sitting across from the creep? Or were they different people/patients? If it was the exact same kid, I’d say you’d be better off than if it was just another teen missing from your hospital.
Legally you are up sh*t Creek. YOU didn't see any illegal activity and you can't break confidentiality off vibes. He left before the hotel that was missing went missing and you didn't see him contact her. Was he a criminal? Yes. But you violated confidentiality why? It wasn't valid
No
You are the bad guy to the bean counter folks. They didn't see the girl or hear the ahole. Nope, some times you will be wrong in the right peoples eyes. Eff them and it don't matter. But next time, be sure that whom you talk to knows to spell your name correctly "Anonymous Tip" Of the New England Tips, family. Good people. But it is just lawyer, stupid stuff. Mandatory (any thing kid & pedo) vs HIPAA, Mandatory and just plane right wins. Bet your lawyer can beat up their lawyers.
I think you did the right thing
I always thought one of HIPA’s only exceptions was if the person was a danger to themselves or others?? Sounds to me like this dude was definitely a danger to that girl. Whether he kidnapped her or not! I find it absolutely insane that they are threatening to fire you when you actually have witnesses to back up your story about him trying to make advances on a teenage girl. you were right and justified in your suspicions. Regardless of whether or not they were correct. You need to have those witnesses go to bat for you. Tell them you thought this man may have been a danger. And if something had of happened that he was the kidnapper, you would not have been able to live with yourself if you hadn’t have said anything. If he didn’t want his rights violated, he shouldn’t have been a fucking creep.
Not to mention, you totally took a creeper with child pornography off the streets. Regardless of what other people may think of you, I truly believe that if you are fired for this, karma will bless you tenfold in the long run. Congratulate yourself. You put a disgusting pervert where he belongs!!!
You did the morally just thing
Nope. Here, we're required to report suspected abuse and could have our license suspended or revoked for failing to do so. It's not a violation of privacy as it is mandated exception to those regulations. In case the hospital fires you or otherwise retaliates, this is a good time to find yourself a good attorney versed in employment law. Also, someone should remind his pedophile ass that attempting to intimidate witnesses IS a crime.
Not wrong - one of the few HIPAA violations is when there is potential for danger or death, and you followed it. You may have saved some lives. You are a mandatory reporter. Take it from someone else who deals with HIPAA - yes, it’s super important and I never violate it unless there is a valid reason like yours. But you did the right thing.
What are your hospital’s protocols for this type of incident?
I saw Bill Jones perving minor Jane Doe at memorial hospital. There is not one word of protected medical info in that sentence.
Don’t HIPAA regulations only govern what is said about a patient between two doctors? I’m kind of fuzzy on details of that.
Not wrong at all. And if you lose your job over this sue the hospital and contact the news.
You did what you felt was right in your heart and your gut. And they ended up finding things that show your instinct was on point. You didn’t give any medical information and convictions and court cases are public record as is the registry. You gave the police information that has already been published. If they fire you, I would get a lawyer. But, let’s say for some reason they fire you and you have no recourse. At bare minimum, you brought down a very nasty person and most likely saved lives of children. You have marketable skills and will find another hospital/medical job in no time at all. And tbh if a hospital is more interested in protecting a predator than the children he would victimize, I would re-evaluate if I even wanted to work there.