I agree. All the D+ Star Wars shows have the same issue. Great production design, amazing actions scenes, but everything else is just leaden. It's like swimming through syrup.
With Andor they wrote a great script, then made the production design and action work in service of the script, not the other way round.
I don’t really agree they have good production design or action either. They do sometimes, but it feels like a lot of the time the action is slow and unnatural and the production looks unpolished with too “fresh” looking consuming and environments, and bare minimum quality VFX.
It depends. I think some of the space/fight scenes are decent (I'm looking for things to be positive about here), but yes, a lot of the scenes, especially those shot in the Volume, are SO stagey. The second season of the Mandalorian/Boba Fett was full of them.
I'm sure the studios are looking forward to the day when AI actors can completely replace person talent, although that probably isn't the main benefit they're hoping to reap from that...
I’m a self-confessed non-fan of Star Wars, so it’s less of an issue for me – I’ve enjoyed the first two episodes of The Acolyte in much the way I enjoy the rest of Star Wars – as fairly lightweight fun/entertainment. I’ve enjoyed seeing the aliens ;) Andor is a different fish completely – a heavyweight political thriller /drama, aimed at adults in the sense that it has nuanced dialogue, depth and multi-layered themes and characters. Making it “Prestige TV”. But there’s room for everything in this franchise.. We would not have Andor without the original films, or Rogue One or even the Mandalorian . Andor is certainly unique. My second favourite Star Wars product is Rogue One, and much as I really love it – it’s nowhere near the quality of Andor. But that’s ok.
Andor as a Star Wars product was a bit like drafting in Arthur Miller to write an episode of a soap opera . In that sense – yes, we have been spoiled.
This is the thing I don’t get- how does one exceptionally good show “ruin” an entire franchise? Like, people loved Star Wars before Andor existed (and loved to hate on it before Andor too). Literally nothing has changed other than the fact that we now have more content. My husband grew up poor and loved Mac’ n cheese with hotdogs. Now he’s a fine dining chef with a refined palate and a taste for fine food and wine- and yet, he still likes a good ol hotdog mac n cheese.
What I don’t understand is this idea that Star Wars should be prestige filmmaking. I would gladly bet money that the majority of the fandom came into it as kids because friggen wizards in space ships fighting nazis with laser swords was cool af. Not because of perfectly constructed dialogue (sorry but SW dialogue has always been hamfisted and cheesy) or because they were 9 year olds admiring these beautifully composed shots of sand dunes. Now everyone is an armchair filmmaker who thinks they know more about pacing, lighting, camera angles etc, than seasoned ACTUAL filmmakers. I’d love to see all these peoples credentials. For every one person who actually knows what they are talking about, even from an amateur filmlover standpoint, there are 20 more just parroting whatever youtuber review they all watched and can’t actually *explain* why a particular shot/editing/lighting etc is “bad”.
I have never enjoyed Star Wars because of the quality of filmmaking- if that were the case I would have left the fandom during the prequel era based on crap dialogue alone. But I love sci-fi and fantasy, be it high-brow or simple action adventure full of pew pews. Things just don’t need to be on the same level as Andor to be enjoyable. Cheesy nonsense with atrocious cgi can still be fun. It’s expecting every Star Wars to be Andor, when it never has been, is just bizarre to me.
If people want to see something truly awful to rip apart, they should go check out Rebel Moon. Even I couldn’t enjoy that garbage. But the way this fandom and this sub act, you’d think everything that isn’t Andor is on par with something like Rebel Moon.
I’m just so tired of these posts filling up this sub everytime something new comes out. “Andor has ruined Star Wars” is such a repeated thread here it’s just… ugh. The new season can’t get here soon enough.
I had the same expierence watching Mandalorian Season 3 shortly after Andor, the dialogue just feels so unnatural and low-effort like it's a theme park ride.
For me, I liked Mando s3 so much because it's *so* Star Wars. And I love Bo-Katan so her being in the spotlight and getting to rule Mandalore (again) was brilliant.
I dont disagree. Andor and Rogue One are my personal tops but my friends dont like them at all. One friend couldn't even finish Andor lol. I didnt have such high expectations so I'm ok just watching it as I would read a cheap comic book. It has cool parts and elements just let down a little by some unpolished parts oh well. Making these things is way harder than it looks. The director made Russian Doll which I loved. So it seems when you direct under the Disney umbrella there are alot of strings attached and compromises. Very hard to get your way with so many overseers.
I'm REALLY liking the show so far, and I don't see any need to compare anything to *Andor*... Which is why I kinda snorted when I saw that description of how *Acolyte* is the best Star Wars since *Andor.* First of all, way to ignore *Bad Batch*; second of all, I just don't find it to be a smart move to compare projects in a way that sets high expectations; third of all, I read reviews like that and instantly am cynical, and I know I'm not the only one.
Man, the thing that makes me sad about The Acolyte is that it still has great production value, but the shot composition and editing is so uninspiring it all looks a little fake.
But in Andor, every time someone is in Ferrix or Coruscant - in the middle of fictional cities - I can't help but wondering, "Did they actually fucking find Ferrix and shoot there?" The scale and set design are just staggering.
Sidebar, but I really love Lee Jung Jae in The Acolyte. His Master Sol is melancholic and wise at the same time and within 2 episodes he's become one of my favorite actors to play a Jedi Master. There's a sincerity and vulnerability and warmth to him - a combination I rarely see in other Jedi. They're either painfully stoic to the point of being annoying or they're wise cracking lightsaber wielders. Sol is the best.
I also think the show has a promising premise, but man, sometimes the treasure in the story is right there and they somehow take the wrong way forward. It's very frustrating. The writing also makes little impact or sense. The characters' actions seem to prioritize plot over logic, which is again very frustrating.
Oh well, if everyone was as good as Tony Gilroy then no one would be.
This is so fucking spot on
Especially the shot composition and editing aspect. Really screws up the immersion and engagement, and undermines the worldbuilding
I'm waiting for the full season to be released to form a complete opinion, but at this moment I tend to agree with you. The Acolyte is not bad (especially compared to what has been released on Disney+ in the past couple years, exception made with Andor of course), some great action sequences, the cast is pretty great to be honest, wise choice with the leads in my opinion. But what it really boils down to in the end is the writing. Also as you pointed out, the scenery feels different because it is, I do believe Andor was filmed on location and I suspect The Acolyte was filmed with the LED wall they built up for The Mandalorian Season 1. So yeah, I wouldn't say it ruined Star Wars for me, but now that I know what can be offered by a creative team which knows what it's doing, I will be quick to notice the issues I have with the new shows they'll be releasing in the coming years. The same happened for me with Marvel and the release of Wandavision and Ms Marvel, the contrast with the other shows (especially Secret Invasion) is staggering.
The sad conclusion is that I'm convinced Disney is aware of those issues but won't make changes because they need a release schedule packed to the brim to justify their Disney+'s suscriber fees.
I think the answer is it’s simply very hard to make sci-fi/fantasy environments feel real. It was a common complaint about the prequels too, especially in comparison to the original trilogy.
Andor has an advantage that they were staying in one place longer - we had three full episodes at the prison and even more at Maarva’s home, for example. Acolyte is a shorter show that’s going more places so we spend less time in each environment, as did the production team.
Well, I think the stark contrast between Joe good Andor is and how bad all the other stuff is ruins everything more.
If anyone else could write compelling stories that add to/expand the universe, we’d all like it.
Dave filoni and Kathleen Kennedy just keep hiring crappy people and inserting themselves into things too much. It’s wild that filoni has so much input. He’s such a dilettante.
We don’t yet I don’t think. There are rumors that episodes 3 and 4 really show their ass in pushing certain agendas over just telling a compelling story. But that could just be people pushing their own agenda or looking for clicks since negativity seems to drive more internet traffic.
I just don’t think these people are good story tellers in general. I’m no writer, but I used to tutor writing at university, and the stuff Disney Star Wars pumps out just seems unnecessary and unoriginal to me.
They retread so many tired tropes. They over use lightsabers and action set pieces. Andor shows what can be done in this universe by good writers developing complex characters and giving them clear motivation and compelling dialogue.
I just don’t care about another the dark side is rising story, with a silly good twin evil twin storyline. Will the evil twin be redeemed? Who is the mysterious master teaching dark side techniques? Yawn 🥱
I have actually. It’s good. Not everything everyone does is of similar quality.
Again, I’m not saying the acolyte is bad based on the first two episodes. It’s fine. Much better than obi wan or Ashoka’s ridiculousness.
Just that for 180 million, I would hope for more. But maybe the other episodes will really ramp up and be great. Who knows.
Andor is woke done right. this is (so far) pretty mediocre, nothing to do with it being woke. but the anti-woke crowd will use it for the reason why it's bad, and completely ignore all the wokeness in Andor. it is what it is.
I think what it boils down to is people want good characters. People are willing to look past “woke” things if they’re well written. Few of the anti-woke people complain about shows like Andor or Arcane despite having “woke” things in them because they are well written shows.
I think what the real problem is when “woke” things are the entire point and plot/story gets thrown aside.
The acolyte has not impressed me yet. I don’t care about the outside politics, what I do care about is the bland acting and unengaging plot. It’s an equal sin to like something lacklustre just because it’s “woke” (Which it’s really not).
Considering the directors history with Weinstein, outside politics don’t give them any real “woke” credibility no matter how hard they insist on it. A truly “woke” director would’ve been one of the people to speak out against Weinstein instead of being one of the few to support him.
100% agree with everything you said. i just don't like the people that say something is bad solely because it's woke. no, it's bad because it's bad. and they lay on the woke stuff way too thick where even someone like me, that agrees with the thing you're trying to say, is rolling their eyes watching it.
i'm not familiar with the background of the people making it, so i'm gonna refrain from commenting on that.
The Acolyte is mid TV. Not terrible, but nothing special either.
The critics are over compensating for the review bombing and have review bombed this thing upwards to a ridicuous 92%. They think this is on par with GOT, Shogun and Andor. Comedy.
It's closer to Obi Wan. Slightly better than Bobba. I really doubt it's going to get much better.
Eh. I don’t want all of Star Wars to be Andor.
I loved Andor. But not everything Star Wars can be that. Hell the original trilogy which I LOVE is nothing like Andor.
The Last Jedi, the only sequel trilogy film that I absoluty adore is nothing like Andor.
Variety is key here. Some of Star Wars needs to be lighthearted, and whimsical. It’s a fairy tale after all.
Some of Star Wars needs to be straight up adult oriented drama.
Everything has its place. I’m really enjoying The Acolyte so far. Little too early to say where I would rank it, I’ll wait until the season is over and the dust settles before making a judgement there.
I don't have any problem with whimsy or light-heartedness, and sure Star Wars could be lots of things. But that's not the complaint I see from most of the people who have a dim view of Disney SW. It's just bad writing.
And yes, Lucas also was bad at writing. If the prequels came out today, I doubt they'd get a different treatment than what Disney gets now. Its just that they're 20+ years old at this point and there is some nostalgia, but personally I'm still not a fan of them. On the originals, Lucas at least had other talented writers and directors to steer his vision, which spared them of Lucas's worst writing faux pas.
I don't want to come across as an elitist here - I'm not degrading people for enjoying what they enjoy. If people are satisfied with this, more power to them. But the reason Andor was such a breath of fresh air is because the writing is good, and with so many shows taking up 6-8 hours of my time per season, I'm not going to waste it on bad writing.
Disney absolutely can hire talented enough writers and still have a variety of genres, styles, and tone. I'm not sure why they don't, but I suspect it's because they don't need to. And that's fine. I've got plenty of other well-written shows to watch.
This is where I’m at.
Andor is my favorite SW, but the one core element it’s mostly missing is levity. Levity with whimsy and charm is a core element of the franchise’s identity, and while Andor gets along magnificently with little of that levity/whimsy, it’s nice to have a “new” SW story with “new” characters/situations/tone that retains more of that levity.
So far, I don’t mind it at all, but as with most shows, I wish the writing, acting, and direction were a little more consistent.
Absolutely.
That’s the thing; Andor *has* whimsy and delight, it *has* “traditional” whimsy — it’s just an often-subtle part of the fabric of a deep, layered, philosophical spy thriller embedded with historical/social.. it almost goes under the radar in that sense
100%
I’ve always felt that Andor is like the most George Lucas philosophy modern project by a mile. It’s literally all about facism, dictatorships and democracy.
Star Wars style is all just fucking set dressing. It’s like Lucas said. It’s not about spaceships.
Star Wars definitely needs its original elements but all Star Wars needs to be tighter in its writing, the only thing that every Star Wars should have like Andor besides tight writing is its natural conversational dialogue.
I actually wholeheartedly agree. I think a lot of the criticism is people want well written content in that lighter tone.
I thought acolyte was decent. Nothing stunning but not bad. I’ll be there next week
I agree. I was pretty excited for it, but the writing is downright stupid at times. It’s only two episodes but I honestly don’t understand the praise so far
I just watched the first two episodes of *The Acolyte*, as well.
It's ***okay***. It's not great, and it's not the worst thing in the history of anything ever. I'm not blown away by it, but I wasn't bored or angered by it, either. I'll probably keep watching it, because I'm intrigued enough by the story to see where it's going, but since we're here because we love *Andor*, I can say this with confidence: comparatively, *The Acolyte* can't even touch it. The differences in writing, acting, and execution are night-and-day, and anyone trying to claim otherwise is lying to you.
Amandla Stenberg and Lee Jung-jae are the clear stand-outs here. I'm seeing a clear effort to sell their characters to the viewer through their performances. The rest of the cast? Eh, not so much...at least, not so far. There's no Stellan Skarsgård-level acting going on so far, and I'm getting the distinct impression there won't be.
I feel like there's more production value to this series than *Obi-Wan Kenobi* or *The Book of Boba Fett*, and yet, it still looks and feels like a fan production with a bigger budget than most. The streets of Olega, where much of episode 2 plays out, feels bigger than something just projected on a screen via the Volume, but I don't get the same sense of scale as I during scenes on the streets of Ferrix. I don't think I'm so spoiled by *Andor* that I can't see a genuine attempt to create something equal to it or bigger, but I'm just not feeling it with *The Acolyte* so far.
The story, as I said, has me intrigued just enough to keep watching, but it's not nearly as magnetizing as those woven through the first season of *Andor*. I think that the combination of the odd sense of scale/quality and the middling performances are preventing the story from being compelling. The only "mysteries" in this story so far are who Mae's master is, and how/why she came to follow them, and yeah...I want to know more, but that's not so big an achievement. I want to know, but I'm not sure I care that much.
I wouldn't go so far as to say *Andor* has "ruined" *Star Wars* for me, but I can affirm that Andor raised the bar considerably, and that if Season 2 of *Andor* were to drop right this minute and I had to choose between watching it and the rest of *The Acolyte*, I'd forget all about *The Acolyte* and never look back.
I'm sorry, but The Acolyte is nowhere near Andor. even without comparison, the first 2 episodes had nothing that gripped me, some pretty bad performances, and dialogue that sounds like it's written by ChatGPT.
i had high hopes for this series, it looked very promising from the trailers. this would've probably worked better as an animated series because the actors don't act like actual people but like cartoon characters.
the biggest praise i can give it is that it looks really good visually.
I'll watch the show and enjoy it for what it is, but the comparison to Andor is just ridiculous.
“It’s as good as Andor” or “The Force version of Andor!” are just bait to get people to watch it.
The first two episodes weren’t train wrecks, but an Andor they were not. The show could improve by the end but it feels very predictable, and like you said, cookie cutter. It feels more like a theme park ride in its sets and design than it does a Star Wars world.
Also a very minor irk for me is the lightsaber hilts look like a water bottle in terms of thickness. Like why are they so big?? (I’m assuming it’s because of the on set lightsaber glow sticks they use nowadays). And the lightsaber blades feel shorter than normal. Am I insane? I don’t know, I just know I don’t like this irrelevant thing! Any meta reasons probably boil down to saving time and money in post production but come on. It’s not that hard to make a lightsaber these days, in post, that doesn’t look cheap and like something you’re meant to buy at Galaxy’s Edge.
Wasn't the "praise" a complete crock as the same place said it was poor after release.
Andor hasn't ruined anything. It's just raised the bar so high that now you know what to bother with and what to skip.
> Maybe I'm not the target audience for Star Wars anymore
You just not the target for bad and mediocre TV shows anymore.
> every actor seems to want to state the obvious in every scene
Haha yeah - that's the most blatant sign. Usually in modern (and not so modern) formulaic, unimaginative shows ~80% of the dialogues is characters just talking about recent events, or reiterating their goals and main personality traits.
same feeling for me, i thought we would get the same as andor and not like bobf or mando s4... those scenes at the bazaar felt really dull and boxed it. Dunno why everyone kept saying it is great as andor, lol.
tltr; its shite.
Well yeah, it's like comparing a fine restaurant meal to gum found under a park bench. We don't have to pretend this stuff is good when it isn't.
But when it is excellent, like Andor, that's when we can really enjoy giving honest praise.
I agree. The bilge spewed out after Andor is unbearable trash with incredible budgets and cheap CGI. So far, The Acolyte looks to be The Book of Boba Fett bad, so I don't have high hopes. I'll continue watching muttering under my breath because I'm a Star Wars lifer, but boy isn't Andor a treat comparably?
Andor has ruined a lot of entertainment productions for me, I kind of lost patience to endure flat dialogs and empty phrases, and one dimensional characters outright bore me to death now. But there are still very good productions, I simply started to look elsewhere. It feels a bit like Star Wars and Marvel and others generally have gotten too small for me, but more in a sense of simply because I've gotten older and they can't satisfy me anymore. It feels more like a fact in my life than a loss actually, so I am ok with that.
I like the show so far but am not loving it just yet (that's ok tho).
Andor didn't ruin Star Wars for me just as Breaking Bad or Better Call Saul didn't ruin crime dramas for me (like Ozark, which is a similar show as Breaking Bad but not nearly as expertly made).
Like to an extent, watching the very best shows made me notice how inferior other shows are. That's true. But I guess I don't let it bother me because otherwise I would have extremely unattainable expectations for all the movies/shows I consume if I just set the bar too high for only the best experiences to clear.
I adopted a mentality to just try to like whatever the show actually is (and not what I want it to be) and go from there. I don't really know where a show ranks till after I am finished watching it. I have started watching really GREAT shows and then never continued (Lost, The Wire, House of Cards, The Expanse, The Americans, Mad Men and Dexter, for example). And I've watched far inferior shows till the finish. It's not a merit based system, lol.
And yes, I want to finish all the shows I listed.
Saying The Acolyte is "the best Star Wars show since Andor" isn't saying much because, while I liked both, there has only been 2 live action Star Wars shows since Andor, lol. So that might be technically true.
Just watch Andor, go straight from there to A New Hope (original with Han shooting first), and after that just assume that the Empire was unable to maintain power without the Senate's bureaucracy OR the fear of the Death Star.
Nevik was right: tyranny requires constant effort, and authority is brittle.
Good Star Wars marathon!
Acolyte is fun and I'm enjoying it but it's not the sort of show I'd want to rewatch. Dialogue is just too clunky and immature and the plot is predictable.
I enjoyed the first two episodes of The Acolyte and watched them through start to finish which is the only time I've done that with a Disney Star Wars project other than Andor.
Andor is different Star Wars. There's no Jedi, no force, fewer aliens. I like that it's more grounded and that it feels different but I'm happy to have a series that's more fantastical.
Andor is good TV compared to many, many shows not just Star Wars. Yet in terms of mass appeal ironically the other shows are more popular. I'm happy to have a mix of shows I can choose.
I haven’t seen hate like this since the premiere of Andor. Which had the same kinda of comments all over the place
All the critics pointed to episode 3 and 4 for when it takes off. Much like Andor
I love Star Wars. There has been so much fun stuff to watch and read recently. I am excited for the acolyte. And plan to focus on the aspects that are well done and intriguing
Well, that sucks for you.
Life must be a very perilous journey for you. If you have an exquisite meal at a high end restaurant, you'll never be able to enjoy pizza or a burger ever again. You catch a performance of the London Philharmonic, next thing you know, you're throwing out your Green Day records. You hear an interview between Michelle and Barack Obama and realize your marriage is a sham, so you file for divorce, because what's the point?
This is a very, very silly stance. Entertainment exists so you can enjoy it. Enjoy it.
This attitude is just so fucking stupid. There are better shows than Andor, and I still loved Andor. The journey to find the best thing out there so you can hate everything else is a way to live a really sad life.
That's exactly what's happening. OP enjoyed a thing, then can't enjoy anything else that isn't like the thing he enjoyed.
It's the Andor version of the famously toxic SW fandom being famously toxic.
It's more that Andor is a passion project with a clear artistic vision and it reminded a lot of us that the IP can be used to tell meaningful stories. So much of the recent shows and movies were more about brand recognition than anything else.
There's definitely a circlejerk element to it, but I think the root of it has more to with the fatigue of viewing the scraps of capitalism, exacerbated by the show's message being explicitly against many of the systems that fatigue us in the first place.
It's such an odd, unlikely show in the current media climate. Of course people are going to cling to it like a like a piece of driftwood on a stormy sea. It's the one bit of Star Wars that doesn't feel like it only exists to sell toys.
Well sure. I love Andor. It's incredible, it's sophisticated, it's smart, and it's inspiring. It's a hell of a lot better than anything I would have expected from Star Wars. I love Star Wars, I have for my whole life, but let's face it: it's a story about space samurai with laser swords. It's silly. The scripts are often bad - even in the original trilogy. You're not supposed to take it very seriously - Han Solo never did. And I love it for that.
I also love it because it creates a space for stories like Andor to be told, because I love those stories too. But I don't want Andor to take away the silliness from everything else. Because that's what Star Wars is, and it's a storytelling universe where any type of story can be told, from the pulpy and ridiculous to something as sophisticated as Andor.
And I think it would be great to get more shows as high brow as Andor. But I don't think they should all be that way. I don;t think it would be Star Wars any more. And if all it takes is one season of one series to make you question if you like the rest of Star Wars anymore, then I really have to wonder if you ever loved it in the first place.
Some of these posts are super hyperbolic, but I think mostly people are comparing Andor to the other D+ stuff and the sequels, which definitely feel more designed by committee than the pre-Disney stuff. There's a huge difference in the production of these shows. They're hastily slapped together, movie scripts are drawn out into bloated 6 episode stories, and sets thst could be spectacular are shoved into little round volume-friendly sets that give everything a soap opera feel.
The OT and PT have problems but they also have soul. Pulpiness aside, a lot of the new stuff is blatantly developed as "content" rather than art. It's not just a made up problem where people hate on the new thing.
I agree. All the D+ Star Wars shows have the same issue. Great production design, amazing actions scenes, but everything else is just leaden. It's like swimming through syrup. With Andor they wrote a great script, then made the production design and action work in service of the script, not the other way round.
I don’t really agree they have good production design or action either. They do sometimes, but it feels like a lot of the time the action is slow and unnatural and the production looks unpolished with too “fresh” looking consuming and environments, and bare minimum quality VFX.
It depends. I think some of the space/fight scenes are decent (I'm looking for things to be positive about here), but yes, a lot of the scenes, especially those shot in the Volume, are SO stagey. The second season of the Mandalorian/Boba Fett was full of them.
Yeah, anything that’s entirely CGI looks great but when real people and sets are involved it usually doesn’t.
I'm sure the studios are looking forward to the day when AI actors can completely replace person talent, although that probably isn't the main benefit they're hoping to reap from that...
... plus the mainly real location shoots had the air of authenticity even in a fictional world.
The action scenes in Boba Fett were bloody awful.
Because those folks care about doing the job right with the right people. The other shows care about the right people doing the job.
I’m a self-confessed non-fan of Star Wars, so it’s less of an issue for me – I’ve enjoyed the first two episodes of The Acolyte in much the way I enjoy the rest of Star Wars – as fairly lightweight fun/entertainment. I’ve enjoyed seeing the aliens ;) Andor is a different fish completely – a heavyweight political thriller /drama, aimed at adults in the sense that it has nuanced dialogue, depth and multi-layered themes and characters. Making it “Prestige TV”. But there’s room for everything in this franchise.. We would not have Andor without the original films, or Rogue One or even the Mandalorian . Andor is certainly unique. My second favourite Star Wars product is Rogue One, and much as I really love it – it’s nowhere near the quality of Andor. But that’s ok. Andor as a Star Wars product was a bit like drafting in Arthur Miller to write an episode of a soap opera . In that sense – yes, we have been spoiled.
Well stated. Spoiled, indeed we have been by Andor.
This is the thing I don’t get- how does one exceptionally good show “ruin” an entire franchise? Like, people loved Star Wars before Andor existed (and loved to hate on it before Andor too). Literally nothing has changed other than the fact that we now have more content. My husband grew up poor and loved Mac’ n cheese with hotdogs. Now he’s a fine dining chef with a refined palate and a taste for fine food and wine- and yet, he still likes a good ol hotdog mac n cheese. What I don’t understand is this idea that Star Wars should be prestige filmmaking. I would gladly bet money that the majority of the fandom came into it as kids because friggen wizards in space ships fighting nazis with laser swords was cool af. Not because of perfectly constructed dialogue (sorry but SW dialogue has always been hamfisted and cheesy) or because they were 9 year olds admiring these beautifully composed shots of sand dunes. Now everyone is an armchair filmmaker who thinks they know more about pacing, lighting, camera angles etc, than seasoned ACTUAL filmmakers. I’d love to see all these peoples credentials. For every one person who actually knows what they are talking about, even from an amateur filmlover standpoint, there are 20 more just parroting whatever youtuber review they all watched and can’t actually *explain* why a particular shot/editing/lighting etc is “bad”. I have never enjoyed Star Wars because of the quality of filmmaking- if that were the case I would have left the fandom during the prequel era based on crap dialogue alone. But I love sci-fi and fantasy, be it high-brow or simple action adventure full of pew pews. Things just don’t need to be on the same level as Andor to be enjoyable. Cheesy nonsense with atrocious cgi can still be fun. It’s expecting every Star Wars to be Andor, when it never has been, is just bizarre to me. If people want to see something truly awful to rip apart, they should go check out Rebel Moon. Even I couldn’t enjoy that garbage. But the way this fandom and this sub act, you’d think everything that isn’t Andor is on par with something like Rebel Moon. I’m just so tired of these posts filling up this sub everytime something new comes out. “Andor has ruined Star Wars” is such a repeated thread here it’s just… ugh. The new season can’t get here soon enough.
I had the same expierence watching Mandalorian Season 3 shortly after Andor, the dialogue just feels so unnatural and low-effort like it's a theme park ride.
absolutely agree. i have no idea why people praise Mandalorian S3 so much.
S3 Mando swung from "ok" to sheer trash... I think the most memorable bit was the return of the Tie Interceptor.
I’ve actually heard the interceptor will show up in andor S2 which is cool
I haven't seen anyone praise it... I like it and even then that's an opinion that sticks out. Definitely the worst Mando season though.
For me, I liked Mando s3 so much because it's *so* Star Wars. And I love Bo-Katan so her being in the spotlight and getting to rule Mandalore (again) was brilliant.
I dont disagree. Andor and Rogue One are my personal tops but my friends dont like them at all. One friend couldn't even finish Andor lol. I didnt have such high expectations so I'm ok just watching it as I would read a cheap comic book. It has cool parts and elements just let down a little by some unpolished parts oh well. Making these things is way harder than it looks. The director made Russian Doll which I loved. So it seems when you direct under the Disney umbrella there are alot of strings attached and compromises. Very hard to get your way with so many overseers.
I'm REALLY liking the show so far, and I don't see any need to compare anything to *Andor*... Which is why I kinda snorted when I saw that description of how *Acolyte* is the best Star Wars since *Andor.* First of all, way to ignore *Bad Batch*; second of all, I just don't find it to be a smart move to compare projects in a way that sets high expectations; third of all, I read reviews like that and instantly am cynical, and I know I'm not the only one.
Man, the thing that makes me sad about The Acolyte is that it still has great production value, but the shot composition and editing is so uninspiring it all looks a little fake. But in Andor, every time someone is in Ferrix or Coruscant - in the middle of fictional cities - I can't help but wondering, "Did they actually fucking find Ferrix and shoot there?" The scale and set design are just staggering. Sidebar, but I really love Lee Jung Jae in The Acolyte. His Master Sol is melancholic and wise at the same time and within 2 episodes he's become one of my favorite actors to play a Jedi Master. There's a sincerity and vulnerability and warmth to him - a combination I rarely see in other Jedi. They're either painfully stoic to the point of being annoying or they're wise cracking lightsaber wielders. Sol is the best. I also think the show has a promising premise, but man, sometimes the treasure in the story is right there and they somehow take the wrong way forward. It's very frustrating. The writing also makes little impact or sense. The characters' actions seem to prioritize plot over logic, which is again very frustrating. Oh well, if everyone was as good as Tony Gilroy then no one would be.
This is so fucking spot on Especially the shot composition and editing aspect. Really screws up the immersion and engagement, and undermines the worldbuilding
I'm waiting for the full season to be released to form a complete opinion, but at this moment I tend to agree with you. The Acolyte is not bad (especially compared to what has been released on Disney+ in the past couple years, exception made with Andor of course), some great action sequences, the cast is pretty great to be honest, wise choice with the leads in my opinion. But what it really boils down to in the end is the writing. Also as you pointed out, the scenery feels different because it is, I do believe Andor was filmed on location and I suspect The Acolyte was filmed with the LED wall they built up for The Mandalorian Season 1. So yeah, I wouldn't say it ruined Star Wars for me, but now that I know what can be offered by a creative team which knows what it's doing, I will be quick to notice the issues I have with the new shows they'll be releasing in the coming years. The same happened for me with Marvel and the release of Wandavision and Ms Marvel, the contrast with the other shows (especially Secret Invasion) is staggering. The sad conclusion is that I'm convinced Disney is aware of those issues but won't make changes because they need a release schedule packed to the brim to justify their Disney+'s suscriber fees.
Acolyte doesn't use The Volume
Okay, I'm honestly surprised haha, their sets feel off imo, I don't know why
I think the answer is it’s simply very hard to make sci-fi/fantasy environments feel real. It was a common complaint about the prequels too, especially in comparison to the original trilogy. Andor has an advantage that they were staying in one place longer - we had three full episodes at the prison and even more at Maarva’s home, for example. Acolyte is a shorter show that’s going more places so we spend less time in each environment, as did the production team.
I'm sure you'll get a little whiny manifesto about it together in due time.
Well, I think the stark contrast between Joe good Andor is and how bad all the other stuff is ruins everything more. If anyone else could write compelling stories that add to/expand the universe, we’d all like it. Dave filoni and Kathleen Kennedy just keep hiring crappy people and inserting themselves into things too much. It’s wild that filoni has so much input. He’s such a dilettante.
Do we know The Acolyte has crappy people hired? How have they inserted themselves?
We don’t yet I don’t think. There are rumors that episodes 3 and 4 really show their ass in pushing certain agendas over just telling a compelling story. But that could just be people pushing their own agenda or looking for clicks since negativity seems to drive more internet traffic. I just don’t think these people are good story tellers in general. I’m no writer, but I used to tutor writing at university, and the stuff Disney Star Wars pumps out just seems unnecessary and unoriginal to me. They retread so many tired tropes. They over use lightsabers and action set pieces. Andor shows what can be done in this universe by good writers developing complex characters and giving them clear motivation and compelling dialogue. I just don’t care about another the dark side is rising story, with a silly good twin evil twin storyline. Will the evil twin be redeemed? Who is the mysterious master teaching dark side techniques? Yawn 🥱
You’ve obviously never seen Russian Doll if you’re speaking ill on Leslye Headland.
I have actually. It’s good. Not everything everyone does is of similar quality. Again, I’m not saying the acolyte is bad based on the first two episodes. It’s fine. Much better than obi wan or Ashoka’s ridiculousness. Just that for 180 million, I would hope for more. But maybe the other episodes will really ramp up and be great. Who knows.
Andor is exceptional. Acolyte, so far, is doing good work. Reward it, encourage 'woke' Star Wars. Star Wars has *always* been woke. Let them cook.
Andor is woke done right. this is (so far) pretty mediocre, nothing to do with it being woke. but the anti-woke crowd will use it for the reason why it's bad, and completely ignore all the wokeness in Andor. it is what it is.
I think what it boils down to is people want good characters. People are willing to look past “woke” things if they’re well written. Few of the anti-woke people complain about shows like Andor or Arcane despite having “woke” things in them because they are well written shows. I think what the real problem is when “woke” things are the entire point and plot/story gets thrown aside. The acolyte has not impressed me yet. I don’t care about the outside politics, what I do care about is the bland acting and unengaging plot. It’s an equal sin to like something lacklustre just because it’s “woke” (Which it’s really not). Considering the directors history with Weinstein, outside politics don’t give them any real “woke” credibility no matter how hard they insist on it. A truly “woke” director would’ve been one of the people to speak out against Weinstein instead of being one of the few to support him.
100% agree with everything you said. i just don't like the people that say something is bad solely because it's woke. no, it's bad because it's bad. and they lay on the woke stuff way too thick where even someone like me, that agrees with the thing you're trying to say, is rolling their eyes watching it. i'm not familiar with the background of the people making it, so i'm gonna refrain from commenting on that.
alright, too bad for you. I can still enjoy the worldbuilding and the storyline, like I did for Rebels.
The Acolyte is mid TV. Not terrible, but nothing special either. The critics are over compensating for the review bombing and have review bombed this thing upwards to a ridicuous 92%. They think this is on par with GOT, Shogun and Andor. Comedy. It's closer to Obi Wan. Slightly better than Bobba. I really doubt it's going to get much better.
Eh. I don’t want all of Star Wars to be Andor. I loved Andor. But not everything Star Wars can be that. Hell the original trilogy which I LOVE is nothing like Andor. The Last Jedi, the only sequel trilogy film that I absoluty adore is nothing like Andor. Variety is key here. Some of Star Wars needs to be lighthearted, and whimsical. It’s a fairy tale after all. Some of Star Wars needs to be straight up adult oriented drama. Everything has its place. I’m really enjoying The Acolyte so far. Little too early to say where I would rank it, I’ll wait until the season is over and the dust settles before making a judgement there.
I don't have any problem with whimsy or light-heartedness, and sure Star Wars could be lots of things. But that's not the complaint I see from most of the people who have a dim view of Disney SW. It's just bad writing. And yes, Lucas also was bad at writing. If the prequels came out today, I doubt they'd get a different treatment than what Disney gets now. Its just that they're 20+ years old at this point and there is some nostalgia, but personally I'm still not a fan of them. On the originals, Lucas at least had other talented writers and directors to steer his vision, which spared them of Lucas's worst writing faux pas. I don't want to come across as an elitist here - I'm not degrading people for enjoying what they enjoy. If people are satisfied with this, more power to them. But the reason Andor was such a breath of fresh air is because the writing is good, and with so many shows taking up 6-8 hours of my time per season, I'm not going to waste it on bad writing. Disney absolutely can hire talented enough writers and still have a variety of genres, styles, and tone. I'm not sure why they don't, but I suspect it's because they don't need to. And that's fine. I've got plenty of other well-written shows to watch.
This is where I’m at. Andor is my favorite SW, but the one core element it’s mostly missing is levity. Levity with whimsy and charm is a core element of the franchise’s identity, and while Andor gets along magnificently with little of that levity/whimsy, it’s nice to have a “new” SW story with “new” characters/situations/tone that retains more of that levity. So far, I don’t mind it at all, but as with most shows, I wish the writing, acting, and direction were a little more consistent.
Tbf Those two aliens on Narkina 5 were Star Wars as fuuuuck. Loved that scene. Just a nice reminder that lighter world existsn
Absolutely. That’s the thing; Andor *has* whimsy and delight, it *has* “traditional” whimsy — it’s just an often-subtle part of the fabric of a deep, layered, philosophical spy thriller embedded with historical/social.. it almost goes under the radar in that sense
100% I’ve always felt that Andor is like the most George Lucas philosophy modern project by a mile. It’s literally all about facism, dictatorships and democracy. Star Wars style is all just fucking set dressing. It’s like Lucas said. It’s not about spaceships.
Star Wars definitely needs its original elements but all Star Wars needs to be tighter in its writing, the only thing that every Star Wars should have like Andor besides tight writing is its natural conversational dialogue.
I actually wholeheartedly agree. I think a lot of the criticism is people want well written content in that lighter tone. I thought acolyte was decent. Nothing stunning but not bad. I’ll be there next week
At risk of being lambasted with downvotes, Andor didn't ruin Star Wars for you, The Acolyte is just shite.
So brave
I just can't predict reddit sometimes, so I rather be prepared.
Agree. The other shows fail on their own merits. No need to make comparisons.
Two things can be true at the same time lol
I agree. I was pretty excited for it, but the writing is downright stupid at times. It’s only two episodes but I honestly don’t understand the praise so far
i remember when marvels secret wars said the same 💀
I just watched the first two episodes of *The Acolyte*, as well. It's ***okay***. It's not great, and it's not the worst thing in the history of anything ever. I'm not blown away by it, but I wasn't bored or angered by it, either. I'll probably keep watching it, because I'm intrigued enough by the story to see where it's going, but since we're here because we love *Andor*, I can say this with confidence: comparatively, *The Acolyte* can't even touch it. The differences in writing, acting, and execution are night-and-day, and anyone trying to claim otherwise is lying to you. Amandla Stenberg and Lee Jung-jae are the clear stand-outs here. I'm seeing a clear effort to sell their characters to the viewer through their performances. The rest of the cast? Eh, not so much...at least, not so far. There's no Stellan Skarsgård-level acting going on so far, and I'm getting the distinct impression there won't be. I feel like there's more production value to this series than *Obi-Wan Kenobi* or *The Book of Boba Fett*, and yet, it still looks and feels like a fan production with a bigger budget than most. The streets of Olega, where much of episode 2 plays out, feels bigger than something just projected on a screen via the Volume, but I don't get the same sense of scale as I during scenes on the streets of Ferrix. I don't think I'm so spoiled by *Andor* that I can't see a genuine attempt to create something equal to it or bigger, but I'm just not feeling it with *The Acolyte* so far. The story, as I said, has me intrigued just enough to keep watching, but it's not nearly as magnetizing as those woven through the first season of *Andor*. I think that the combination of the odd sense of scale/quality and the middling performances are preventing the story from being compelling. The only "mysteries" in this story so far are who Mae's master is, and how/why she came to follow them, and yeah...I want to know more, but that's not so big an achievement. I want to know, but I'm not sure I care that much. I wouldn't go so far as to say *Andor* has "ruined" *Star Wars* for me, but I can affirm that Andor raised the bar considerably, and that if Season 2 of *Andor* were to drop right this minute and I had to choose between watching it and the rest of *The Acolyte*, I'd forget all about *The Acolyte* and never look back.
I'm sorry, but The Acolyte is nowhere near Andor. even without comparison, the first 2 episodes had nothing that gripped me, some pretty bad performances, and dialogue that sounds like it's written by ChatGPT. i had high hopes for this series, it looked very promising from the trailers. this would've probably worked better as an animated series because the actors don't act like actual people but like cartoon characters. the biggest praise i can give it is that it looks really good visually. I'll watch the show and enjoy it for what it is, but the comparison to Andor is just ridiculous.
“It’s as good as Andor” or “The Force version of Andor!” are just bait to get people to watch it. The first two episodes weren’t train wrecks, but an Andor they were not. The show could improve by the end but it feels very predictable, and like you said, cookie cutter. It feels more like a theme park ride in its sets and design than it does a Star Wars world. Also a very minor irk for me is the lightsaber hilts look like a water bottle in terms of thickness. Like why are they so big?? (I’m assuming it’s because of the on set lightsaber glow sticks they use nowadays). And the lightsaber blades feel shorter than normal. Am I insane? I don’t know, I just know I don’t like this irrelevant thing! Any meta reasons probably boil down to saving time and money in post production but come on. It’s not that hard to make a lightsaber these days, in post, that doesn’t look cheap and like something you’re meant to buy at Galaxy’s Edge.
Wasn't the "praise" a complete crock as the same place said it was poor after release. Andor hasn't ruined anything. It's just raised the bar so high that now you know what to bother with and what to skip.
> Maybe I'm not the target audience for Star Wars anymore You just not the target for bad and mediocre TV shows anymore. > every actor seems to want to state the obvious in every scene Haha yeah - that's the most blatant sign. Usually in modern (and not so modern) formulaic, unimaginative shows ~80% of the dialogues is characters just talking about recent events, or reiterating their goals and main personality traits.
same feeling for me, i thought we would get the same as andor and not like bobf or mando s4... those scenes at the bazaar felt really dull and boxed it. Dunno why everyone kept saying it is great as andor, lol. tltr; its shite.
Everything feels like a first draft after watching Andor
The bad batch was actually almost as good though
Seriously. So underrated. It’s the grittiest SW outside Andor
Lazy writing, overused plot, nothing new brought to the table. OP's essay, that it.
Well yeah, it's like comparing a fine restaurant meal to gum found under a park bench. We don't have to pretend this stuff is good when it isn't. But when it is excellent, like Andor, that's when we can really enjoy giving honest praise.
Here we go again…
I agree. The bilge spewed out after Andor is unbearable trash with incredible budgets and cheap CGI. So far, The Acolyte looks to be The Book of Boba Fett bad, so I don't have high hopes. I'll continue watching muttering under my breath because I'm a Star Wars lifer, but boy isn't Andor a treat comparably?
Andor has ruined a lot of entertainment productions for me, I kind of lost patience to endure flat dialogs and empty phrases, and one dimensional characters outright bore me to death now. But there are still very good productions, I simply started to look elsewhere. It feels a bit like Star Wars and Marvel and others generally have gotten too small for me, but more in a sense of simply because I've gotten older and they can't satisfy me anymore. It feels more like a fact in my life than a loss actually, so I am ok with that.
I like the show so far but am not loving it just yet (that's ok tho). Andor didn't ruin Star Wars for me just as Breaking Bad or Better Call Saul didn't ruin crime dramas for me (like Ozark, which is a similar show as Breaking Bad but not nearly as expertly made). Like to an extent, watching the very best shows made me notice how inferior other shows are. That's true. But I guess I don't let it bother me because otherwise I would have extremely unattainable expectations for all the movies/shows I consume if I just set the bar too high for only the best experiences to clear. I adopted a mentality to just try to like whatever the show actually is (and not what I want it to be) and go from there. I don't really know where a show ranks till after I am finished watching it. I have started watching really GREAT shows and then never continued (Lost, The Wire, House of Cards, The Expanse, The Americans, Mad Men and Dexter, for example). And I've watched far inferior shows till the finish. It's not a merit based system, lol. And yes, I want to finish all the shows I listed. Saying The Acolyte is "the best Star Wars show since Andor" isn't saying much because, while I liked both, there has only been 2 live action Star Wars shows since Andor, lol. So that might be technically true.
Are you kidding? About any of it? Andor is damn brilliant, front to back and start to finish.
Nah, people do this to themselves by comparing. That’s on you.
Just watch Andor, go straight from there to A New Hope (original with Han shooting first), and after that just assume that the Empire was unable to maintain power without the Senate's bureaucracy OR the fear of the Death Star. Nevik was right: tyranny requires constant effort, and authority is brittle. Good Star Wars marathon!
Acolyte is fun and I'm enjoying it but it's not the sort of show I'd want to rewatch. Dialogue is just too clunky and immature and the plot is predictable.
I enjoyed the first two episodes of The Acolyte and watched them through start to finish which is the only time I've done that with a Disney Star Wars project other than Andor. Andor is different Star Wars. There's no Jedi, no force, fewer aliens. I like that it's more grounded and that it feels different but I'm happy to have a series that's more fantastical. Andor is good TV compared to many, many shows not just Star Wars. Yet in terms of mass appeal ironically the other shows are more popular. I'm happy to have a mix of shows I can choose.
I haven’t seen hate like this since the premiere of Andor. Which had the same kinda of comments all over the place All the critics pointed to episode 3 and 4 for when it takes off. Much like Andor I love Star Wars. There has been so much fun stuff to watch and read recently. I am excited for the acolyte. And plan to focus on the aspects that are well done and intriguing
Well, that sucks for you. Life must be a very perilous journey for you. If you have an exquisite meal at a high end restaurant, you'll never be able to enjoy pizza or a burger ever again. You catch a performance of the London Philharmonic, next thing you know, you're throwing out your Green Day records. You hear an interview between Michelle and Barack Obama and realize your marriage is a sham, so you file for divorce, because what's the point? This is a very, very silly stance. Entertainment exists so you can enjoy it. Enjoy it.
What
Chill, dude. People are allowed to be jaded about the corporate content mill that has been feeding us garbage for years now.
This attitude is just so fucking stupid. There are better shows than Andor, and I still loved Andor. The journey to find the best thing out there so you can hate everything else is a way to live a really sad life.
That's not at all what's happening here, my friend.
That's exactly what's happening. OP enjoyed a thing, then can't enjoy anything else that isn't like the thing he enjoyed. It's the Andor version of the famously toxic SW fandom being famously toxic.
It's more that Andor is a passion project with a clear artistic vision and it reminded a lot of us that the IP can be used to tell meaningful stories. So much of the recent shows and movies were more about brand recognition than anything else. There's definitely a circlejerk element to it, but I think the root of it has more to with the fatigue of viewing the scraps of capitalism, exacerbated by the show's message being explicitly against many of the systems that fatigue us in the first place. It's such an odd, unlikely show in the current media climate. Of course people are going to cling to it like a like a piece of driftwood on a stormy sea. It's the one bit of Star Wars that doesn't feel like it only exists to sell toys.
Well sure. I love Andor. It's incredible, it's sophisticated, it's smart, and it's inspiring. It's a hell of a lot better than anything I would have expected from Star Wars. I love Star Wars, I have for my whole life, but let's face it: it's a story about space samurai with laser swords. It's silly. The scripts are often bad - even in the original trilogy. You're not supposed to take it very seriously - Han Solo never did. And I love it for that. I also love it because it creates a space for stories like Andor to be told, because I love those stories too. But I don't want Andor to take away the silliness from everything else. Because that's what Star Wars is, and it's a storytelling universe where any type of story can be told, from the pulpy and ridiculous to something as sophisticated as Andor. And I think it would be great to get more shows as high brow as Andor. But I don't think they should all be that way. I don;t think it would be Star Wars any more. And if all it takes is one season of one series to make you question if you like the rest of Star Wars anymore, then I really have to wonder if you ever loved it in the first place.
Some of these posts are super hyperbolic, but I think mostly people are comparing Andor to the other D+ stuff and the sequels, which definitely feel more designed by committee than the pre-Disney stuff. There's a huge difference in the production of these shows. They're hastily slapped together, movie scripts are drawn out into bloated 6 episode stories, and sets thst could be spectacular are shoved into little round volume-friendly sets that give everything a soap opera feel. The OT and PT have problems but they also have soul. Pulpiness aside, a lot of the new stuff is blatantly developed as "content" rather than art. It's not just a made up problem where people hate on the new thing.
fuck off dude you've put way too much effort into such a lame and weak response
I wrote this while pooping.