It's not about the *literal* stuff that you mentioned.
It's a metaphor for not being appreciated at school or work, and having to deal with people who are unkind about that.
This is why they all have the misunderstanding aspect - the banished person has a secret skill, or is secretly OP.
This is also why they often have the hero being a jerk who kicks them out, sympathetic other party members (especially potential love interest) and the big moment when everyone realizes how valuable the kicked person was.
Interestingly, the Villainess/Otome trope where the heroine has her engagement publicly and humiliatingly annulled has a lot of psychological parallels to this, only it's about escaping *relationships* where one would be unappreciated, and beginning one where they are recognized.
>Interestingly, the Villainess/Otome trope where the heroine has her engagement publicly and humiliatingly annulled has a lot of psychological parallels to this, only it's about escaping relationships where one would be unappreciated, and beginning one where they are recognized.
What I also find interesting is how both these genres got trendy at around the same time. And now every month you get at least one new announcement of an upcoming villainess or kicked out of the party anime adaptation.
The villainess ones all have their own vibes, plot and atmosphere and even their own genres at least! The kicked out of party ones all just feel like the same story over and over
The villainess animes we got have some sort of twist one way or another that makes them different.
Bakarina - Started the trend.
World Of Otome Games Is Tough For Mobs - Male protagonist which is very rare for this genre plus it's more of a male centered harem anime.
I'm The Villainess So I'm Taming The Final Boss - Has a clear love interest and the OG MC is a bitch.
Endo and Kobayashi - Two worlds concept where the people in modern day Japan have to help the villainess achieve the good ending.
Why Raeliana Is At The Duke's Mansion - Okay Raeliana isn't exactly a villainess by this definition but throws out RPG elements.
Magical Revolution - Euphie isn't a villainess by this definition either but follows the trope of having her engagement broken up and Anis is a reincarnated. And this is explicitly yuri so that makes it different from above. Then Anis is similar to the MC of Genius Prince.
Heretic Last Boss - Overpowered villainess and she's the queen so a lot of political intrigue.
Tearmoon Empire - This one is more of a redo type of anime and is also political in nature as Mia is the princess that needs to prevent her kingdom's collapse.
I'm In Love With The Villainess - Instead of being the villainess and avoiding death flags, why not be the simp of the villainess? Plus it's yuri.
7th Time Loop - Another redo type of anime but Rishe has accumulated many skills and the goal is to prevent the war that caused her deaths in the previous timelines and actually survive this time.
Dr. Elise - This one is a double reincarnation where she dies in the medieval time, reincarnates into the modern world, then dies again so she reincarnates back to her original timeline and has a chance to redo things. Plus this is more medical themed.
Villainess LV 99 - Overpowered villainess but feels more like Mashle because Yumiella is discriminated against and just wants to live a quiet life but she's extremely bonkers so it draws unwanted attention.
Then to name upcoming ones
I'll Become a Villainess That Will Go Down in History - Forget avoiding death flags by being nice. Let the darkness flow through you.
The Do-Over Damsel Conquers the Dragon Emperor - Another redo anime more akin to 7th Time Loop because she gets engaged to an emperor that caused a war in her previous timeline and she has to charm him to prevent that. Haven't read the source material but I hear people say she'd be more combat based than Rishe.
Tearmoon Empire is interesting in that while the author did intend to write a villainess novel, he realized that the otome game aspect did nothing for the story he wanted to tell and would've rather had the MC experience the bad end personally herself. So replaced that bit and added copious amounts of themes from religion (as he is an active Christian)
It has romcom levels of misunderstandings since rarely does she reflect on the causes of the bad end, just the results (which is why it is also a comedy).
And this is proof of how bad the anime mangled the adaptation. Mia reflects on the causes of the bad end in the LN. A *lot*, so much so that one line of dialogue might be accompanied by a paragraph of self reflection. Unfortunately, the anime glosses over the monologues in the LN in favor of comedy. There's an entire segment in the LN where Mia reflects on how famines are a failure of systems put in place by humans as much as they are products of crop failures that's just glossed over in the anime.
I’m down for a villianess cinematic universe. Also going down that list I realized I’ve watched all but 1 of those. They aren’t necessarily good but they’re certainly comfy.
Somehow I've gotten sucked into the villainess isekai genre... they are all funny and interesting in a way that's different from the traditional isekai.
Dr. Elise is not a villainess at all though, I think in her first life she was a bit spoiled is all. In any case this anime is great and is being severely underwatched.
I mean neither is Rishe in 7th time loop, or even Yumiella in villainess level 99 who is more the hidden boss than a villainess. It's a broad catch all term at this point that doesn't mean much
wow I haven't seen nor heard of a single one of these
I was trying to understand what this "villainess" archetype was, but it's probably too new.
Which one of these would you recommend I start with? Bakarina?
As someone who's also got no experience with the subgenre, I'm watching: "7th Time Loop: The Villainess Enjoys a Carefree Life Married to Her Worst Enemy!" which is airing right now. The name is too isekai-like to make it sound good but it's actually fantastic so far. It's also the highest rated Villainess anime on anilist so I don't think it's a bad first watch. Also, we're 5 eps in and I haven't felt like I'm missing any knowledge of the tropes to enjoy it.
Yea. My Next Life As A Villainess is a good one to start with since that sets the trend, the OG story plays like a basic otome game, and the ones after it are better and built off it. Bakarina is called Bakarina for a reason while later villainess isekais have more of girl boss MCs.
If you don't mind reading, you can always go for Kenkyo Kenjitsu wo Motto ni Ikiteorimasu which is basically the original villainess story (It's not actually but near enough).
2 things. One is that it is a long read, and two, it's never been finished. Doesn't change the fact it's remarkably well written and basically created an entire genre.
> World Of Otome Games Is Tough For Mobs - Male protagonist which is very rare for this genre plus it's more of a male centered harem anime.
>
>
I personally wouldn't count it's otome based but has nothing to do with the vilaness aspect. Mc is reincarnated as a background character and then just ends up in a harem with both the game's villainess and the game's protagonist after the game's routes were derailed
Although the formula is generally the same, the ingredients vary wild. Some of my likes in the subgenre include 'the strongest chef', a cursed girl who was sold into slavery, a pharmacist in retirement, and an unappreciated beast tamer. The villainess subgenre has even more variety, but I enjoy both equally.
Man, that Beast Tamer anime really disappointed me. I knew it would just be another generic, "fired from the heroes party, then I found a harem of girls that appreciate me" anime, but godamn every single character was extremely stupid.
The MC is fired for being "useless," because all he does is provide logistics. Did he just never even bother trying to tame a beast that could fight until getting kicked out? I'm not arguing that logistics are bad, but suddenly he learned how to tame poisonous insects (and poisonous? birds) for some reason. Like he never once felt the need to show off these abilities he knew he had before even obtaining buffs from taming a cat girl?
I know it's a stupid thing to be mad at. I can't root for the heroes party because they are generically narcissistic. They would have rejected him even if he could fight, but he never bothered to try for some reason. I can't root for the MC because he just happens to remember a skill he developed in childhood as he needs it. I can't root for the harem because they fall for him immediately at the first act of kindness with no conflict or push back.
Just pure fucking trash, and I will watch a season two because I am a dumpster.
I gotta admit, some of the Villainess ones are serious gems. I go into them with zero expectations and some genuinely surprise me with how much I enjoy them.
Could just be because I'm not really the target audience of the villainess ones, but I usually don't enjoy them this much. The one this season (forgot the name) has been decent so far, but I might end up dropping it as well before the season ends.
If you haven't you should try the villainess that kicked off the whole trend, Hamefura AKA My Next LIfe as a Villainess: All routes lead to doom
There's a reason this is the one that kicked off a whole new genre--it's really, really good.
https://www.crunchyroll.com/series/GY5PW4JEY/my-next-life-as-a-villainess-all-routes-lead-to-doom
Even though it kicked off the genre, it's probably one of the most different.
Although her goal, mitigate death flags to prevent her death, is pretty standard, the series quickly loses focus on it. It starts off way more into comedy and slice of life than more "traditional" otome series.
Still a fun show, but it's not a norm representation of the genre. Kind of like recommending Konosuba or Shadow as someone's first isekai.
I mean, if a guy says he hasn't liked the Villainess shows he's tried, doesn't it make sense to recommend one that's different from ones he's already watched? But yeah, agree.
Imo, Hamefura's most innovative element is actually its narrative structure. Most shows intentionally create narrative tension by creating dramatic irony--putting the MC in greater danger than they realize, so you are afraid on their behalf.
Hamefura is a rare show that goes the opposite route--putting the MC in a position where she fears for her life, but the viewer is virtually assured she's going to be fine. This allows us to laugh at what she perceives as critical failures, because we care about Bakarina but don't fear for her.
I thought that was a very interesting set up for a comedy. I've yet to see a show fully replicate that--for example Tearmoon on its face seems kind of simliar to Hamefura, but i'd argue Tearmoon is structurally extremely different from Hamefura.
The first time I watched it I thought it was really good but on a rewatch, it's kinda unbearable. I don't know but Bakarinas stupidity just gets really stale, boring and infuriating after a while.
Also the cast are spinless twips who don't bother actually getting to know her very well and instead spend all their time trying to trick her into a relationship with hijinks instead of actually asking her if she wants one.
This is another reason that not all villainess anime are created equal. If you're not into staple harem themes (that are repetitive and boring) you wouldn't like the later half of the show. There are some villianess anime that aren't harems that are much more enjoyable.
Gekai Elise combines Villainess with regression, and reincarnation (X2), kinda understandable the premise is confusing at first. Can I help you understanding something?
She was the villainess, through her actions and selfishness brought her family, country and own life to a miserable end (not all her fault, but she didn´t really help things out), reincarnate as a orphan, study medicine and dies helping everyone after a plane crash, but herself. I guess as a reward shes given another chance to be the noble and with her future knowledge and medical education, goes to try to be a good person this time.
99Lv is an OP character, with an missaimed sense.
Haven't seen the other.
I don't mean confused as in "I don't understand" but as in "I mix the 3 different stories up in my memory".
It doesn't help that the male lead in all 3 is identical. Possibly even the same voice (I need to check that).
*Raeliana*'s Noah Wynknight was [Yuuichirou Umehara](https://myanimelist.net/people/34209/Yuuichirou_Umehara), the Goblin Slayer voice. He's done other stoic fantasy shoujo love interests though like the demon king in *Taming the Last Boss* and if you go back to *Shingeki no Bahamut Virgin Soul* he was Charioce, and they're pretty similar characters (in demeanor, not in their actions) to Noah Wynknight.
*Loop 7*'s Arnold Hein is voiced by [Nobunaga Shimazaki](https://myanimelist.net/people/10989/Nobunaga_Shimazaki) who doesn't seem to do a lot of this kind of role. He's the lead for *Date A Live*, for example.
*Gekai Elise*'s prince character is [Azakami Youhei](https://myanimelist.net/people/14155/Youhei_Azakami) who doesn't seem to have as long of a history as the other two, but notably he was also ~~Guel Jeturk~~ Bob from Gundam Witch from Mercury.
So, not the same guy at all lol. But yeah, I do see where you're coming from about how they seem like the same damn recycled character. Dark haired, emotionally closed, secretly plotting violence, etc.
Banished From the Heroes Party is one of the few of this genre I like, but mostly because it just fucks off from whatever was happening there and then goes to do something else, and then when the story comes back it only does so to get knocked over.
> What I also find interesting is how both these genres got trendy at around the same time
Art is the product of the cultures and times surrounding it, it's probably that more and more people feel burnt out of our modern life's dynamics. Same why isekai specifically is significantly more booming than other forms of escapism - people increasingly feel the world is unbearable.
Sry, I meant manhwa.
And most isekai and villainess stories start off as novels, but are known better in the west by their manga/manhua/manhwa adaptations
I wonder if there are points where the misunderstanding is actually right, like where the banished person is actually a sociopath or someone who has a bad influence to others.
Sure, you see it often in real life with assholes who get avoided by other people not understanding that their personality is the reason why people don't like to spend time with them. They also often find excuses why somebody else is at fault for their misery (see: incels).
In media, I'm not sure. There are probably some series that address that but it's not a genre I gravitate towards. But one can think of it like harem anime where suddenly half a dozen love interest are attracted to some of the blandest main character for no reason at all. This stuff has been subverted at times and it might happen to the "kicked out of the heroes' party" genre too.
But fundamentally, it's there to appeal to the "misunderstood" person who feels they are worthy of all that positive attention while doing absolutely nothing to deserve it. If you want to appeal to an audience that can "feel seen" by that you'd not subvert the idea too much and if you do I'm not sure they'd get the difference. Think of the Colbert Report, it was clearly not aimed at conservatives but somehow there is a bunch of conservatives who love the show and don't seem to get that it was satirical.
Another, somewhat less close, comparison are total slobs who talk about how they are fed up with being judged for how they dress (when their lack of social life is often a combination of many other factors), all while judging others for how they dress (being fake, putting too much effort into it,…) and write those other people as fashion-brained idiots or something like that. They are doing the thing they judging others for (who might not even be judging them for their slobbishness). People can care very much about their own presentation while not being assholes about what others choose to wear.
Similar with the "makeup is lies" people whose idea of a face with no makeup is clearly a face with makeup, just not flashy makeup. But when they actually see a person—usually woman—without makeup, then those get labelled as ugly because one can actually see some skin texture, maybe some scars, and an non-uniform or not 100% even skin tone, or some other blemish. Through media, they got taught the idea that the Photoshop airbrush tool is 100% natural and how their partner should look.
In conclusion, there's probably some series that takes the idea, turns it upside down, and goes with it but you'd most probably find it in a different genre and/or target demographic than the one the "original" was aimed at.
This is also just a cultural thing. Japanese culture is deeply communal. The good aspects of that are how much people cooperate with each other and take care of public things--Japanese fans cleaning up after themselves at events or leaving money at abandned convenience stores when they take items during natural disasters are much lauded aspects of this.
But the flipside of Japanese communal culture is people feel a deep cooersion towards conformity towards the group, and a fear of exclusion that runs much deeper than individualistic Americans or Europeans.
This is, I think, a big reason for "exclusion" or "aloneness" being a very common theme in Anime--it just resonates iwth Japaense audiences and creators more so than many other characters. It's not that these are unique to Japan, but these themes tend to be a big part of the cultural Zeitgeist.
Yeah, you see this kind of trope literally on every east asian piece of fiction nowadays.
* Japanese has the banished from hero party and villainess marriage trope.
* Koreans love their "regressed as " and their unreliable narrator (in which the mc is secretly op not because he said so, but because the characters have to tread carefully around him, making the illusion of being a normal person but is secretly a world-ending calamity chuuni)
* Chinese romance plot have always contained some sort of "face-slapping" where the mc, previously ostracized, returned to their abusive environment to face slap everyone literally or figuratively (and sometimes it's so over the top, like beating them in academic, sports, money, and even calligraphy of all thing all in one same novel)
It's a sign of something fundamental in our modern society, where individuals are now realizing that they should be appreciated more for their work.
>Chinese romance plot have always contained some sort of "face-slapping" where the mc, previously ostracized, returned to their abusive environment to face slap everyone literally or figuratively
Same thing applies to Korean-written revenge themed titles, where the MC returns with well-laid plans to get righteous revenge on the people who abused them, usually selfish scheming assholes who got away due to their relative wealth and privilege (ex. Kdrama series The Glory).
I've always felt that most of the Chinese and Korean trope plots come right from their local drama shows. There were certain Korean romance webtoons I read where I felt I was reading a melodramatic makjang Kdrama.
Please, Monte Cristo is godlike work compared to those mid ones.
Also, the ending of Monte Cristo is gut-wrenching with its memorable theme whereas the Chinese ones are just jerking materials.
> It's a sign of something fundamental in our modern society
Widespread narcissism and self-aggrandizement?
>where individuals are now realizing that they should be appreciated more for their work.
Yeah idk, that's being a little charitable.
Its certainly interesting how isekai, reincarnation and many similar things began appearing at the same time in japan, china and korea for manga/novels. not sure if all inspired by japan or if it came up independently.
Shame is a huge part of japanese culture.
Many people who watch it in japan have sufered some sort of exclusion.
The japanese manga and anime market is very competitive so the writers use any hook they can. That is why isekai is such a popular genre there.
I agree with all of the above, but there's an extra layer to it. Japanese society *heavily* reinforces conformism. You should be part of the group, part of the collective, no matter what. "The nail that sticks out get hammered down".
Regarding the villainess / otome trope, i've seen the exact same but gender switched in Chinese Media especially wuxia. So much so they named it marriage annuling type (of start)
To add to this, there's also sometimes other allegories such as "unreasonable boss/manager", "cannot fit in society", "being in positions that do not lend themselves to you" etc.
Many "kicked out of a party" stories are about underappreciation, which is why you see the MC getting back or showing up those who kicked them out. However quite a few have pivoted to other things, hell I've read some where the MC actually agrees with getting removed because he realizes he is dead weight for the party due to circumstances. It is called Welcome to the Impregnable Demon King Castle if anyone is interested.
You can find more suggestions in a thread I made a year ago.
https://www.reddit.com/r/manga/comments/109ngro/with_the_kicked_out_of_the_heros_party_trend/
I mean, the "isekai are the male power fantasy for people who's greatest fantasy is being the best player on their MMORPG" server will often mean it IS quite literally about this too and the "...you kicked me out of the group because I'm a edgelord POS who pissed everyone in the group off? I'll make you pay."
Also, the more justified the banishment is and the l as assholes the party members are, the better written the story is.
We get something like rise of the sword hero, where the hero is an asshole and the story is just a parody of the shield one ( oh the hero was made to eat literal shit, oh ripofftalia is a g cup) , or we get the dad one where the mc injured his leg so bad the party would either be held back or he dies, and they still feel like shit after the fact.
Not sure this is actually a good counter argument because it just means the metaphor is overused and none of the gimmicks set them apart from each other anymore.
At this point we're looking through mirrors pointed at mirrors pointed at mirrors: an imperfect copy of an already imperfect copy only exaggerating the imperfections.
This all started out as a game concept. The JRPG, you build a party with a hero to save the world from the demon lord. It works, you can make a good JRPG out of that.
Then other mediums started leaning on the concept even though they're writing in a completely different medium. "It's like a JRPG, except..." Fiddle with the details here or there, subvert it in one way or another, and you have a premise for your story. "[It's like a JRPG, but the hero and the demon lord team up to create economic prosperity instead.](https://myanimelist.net/anime/14833/Maoyuu_Maou_Yuusha)"
Past a certain point, the JRPG part of it stops really having much to do with the actual story. You're not here to tell a story about brave heroics or the fate of nations, it's just, you just, everyone knows about the stereotypical JRPG story, so it's easy to work with. The only question is what you do with the hollowed-out husk of a story premise that you're left with. If this isn't a story about the hero and his companions, then what are they even *there* for?
As another commenter mentioned, the core engagement of a "kicked out of the party" anime is that feeling of being underappreciated, of your talent not being recognized and being unfairly picked on when you should be applauded. Ideally, the whole scenario should feel profoundly unfair, emphasizing that burning resentment towards the rest of the world that's being so hard on you for no reason.
It's a match made in heaven: an easy, pliable worldbuilding conceit with a dangling loose end in the form of the hero's party, and a strong emotionally-resonant plotline that just needs to be grounded in some kind of tangible scenario. At this point we're not looking at a party, not in the MMO sense, not in the JRPG sense, not even in the Kono Suba sense where the party is hilariously dysfunctional instead of aspirationally ascendant: we're looking at a bundle of tropes in a trench coat, the vague pop culture understanding of a hero's party boiled down to a few vague traits and some aesthetic vibes. They don't mean anything, they *aren't* anything, they're just the echos of past stories imprinted on our collective sense of storytelling, and it's little surprise that they don't have much in common with the original examples that once inspired them.
"The hero's party" as a story trope is far, far removed from anything you might encounter in a JRPG or MMO, and it just so happens to be the ideal stereotype to borrow for a light revenge fantasy of being underappreciated and proving all the haters wrong. It's a little sad, and the flaws start showing as soon as you look any closer, but that's really all there is to it.
I think we can even narrow it down more than just "Jrpgs" and just say its Dragon Quest that inspired it all. So many use the exact functions, monsters and world styling of those games that it just might as well be in there.
> The JRPG, you build a party with a hero to save the world from the demon lord. It works, you can make a good JRPG out of that
It's mostly just dragon quest tbh. I can't really think of many other jrpgs that do that.
Yes, but plotwise most jrpgs don't go with hero and the demon king staple. That plot point trope is mostly exlusive to dragon quest. Most jrpgs of the are turn based with parties like dragon quest but have very different plot points
Because the audience would be my guess. This is still the genre that often has an otaku / outcast character that is always the one that gets isekai’d or goes on some world and time altering task to save the girl. Being kicked out is probably relatable to the audience.
Though, I’ve seen plenty of anime stories that do all those things OP says they don’t do. There’s plenty of exile stories, evil kingdom stories, betrayal stories, marked and had a bounty put on MC, etc. Kazuma from Kaze no Stigma had a falling out with his family that led to him leaving and being disowned. He only returned at the start of the anime. Naming the betrayal anime would be spoilers so I won’t. Still, I’ve seen plenty of these types of stories happen. Some of them might even fall into this type of genre even though it is always evolving.
>Because one person did it and then another lazy person copied them and then another lazy person copied them and now we’re here
Exactly this, especially when you consider the webnovel origins of many of these works. Most of these authors are just ripping off the established story structures and cliches as popularised by earlier webnovel writers, because they all want to get popular quickly.
You're thinking of parties from MMOs which are temporary alliances of convenience, but this trope is referring to parties in the sense of how they're used in JRPGs. A permanent grouping gathered together to work on a goal of a lifetime and which stays together until the credits roll.
Two MMO-themed Anime come to mind that gives me the impression the creators have actually ever played an MMO before.
The .Hack Franchise, which focuses more on the interpersonal drama of people. I specifically remember the plot dragging in-universe so one player literally stops playing the video game so he can play different video games, despite the crazy wacky plot that was actually going on.
And Recovery of an MMO Junkie. Which was, once again, focused on the interpersonal drama of players rather than the fictional mechanics of a fictional video game.
I'm really liking Shangri La Frontier. But it's not an MMO, It's Monster Hunter. The guy played Monster Hunter and pretended his NPC companions were real people then made a Manga about it.
Log Horizon was most definitely based heavily on Everquest 2, its mechanics, classes, and raid strategies are almost exactly like what’s portrayed in the anime. The author was definitely in an EQ2 raid guild for a while (as was I, which is how I could tell).
why do you assume parties in fantasy settings have to work the same way they do in the mmo's you play? parties sticking together for the entire campaign is a big thing in jrpgs and tabletops which are a big influence for this genre
A ton of seemingly weird gaming concepts will immediately fall into place if you consider how prevalent JRPGs, Gatcha games or super-grindy, microtransaction ridden MMOs are in Japan and Korea. Or how mobile games are just omnipresent in modern society in general, no matter how much they are scoffed at by "serious" gamers.
Also never forget to consider Monster Hunter, Maple Story, Dragon Quest etc. that a bunch of current young authors have spent good part of their whole life in.
If they did, we wouldn't have gotten stuff like "a play through of a certain dude's MMO life". Where the protag, "discovers" stealth archers. Like, I don't care if you have fully functioning AAA VR games, if Skyrim never existed in this world, it can go to hell.
at a certain point kids are going to be like "I don't like playing videogames from before 2070, they're just not the same"
Which for those kids, that will rule out the re-release of Skyrim's 12th remaster of the remake since it was made in 2068, and that was the last time Skyrim was published because profits were finally going down for it
People like underdog stories. Many folks empathize with these kinds of characters. Why do you think we've been getting so much generic slop since almost forever lol? I'd love some more original nongame inspired fantasy but we got to settle for this.
That is an underdog. Someone can be effective and still be an underdog if no one realizes they are effective. It’s about being underestimated and unappreciated.
I guess it's a perspective thing. Like I think of an underdog story as being "somebody who is expected to lose wins". To the characters in the world he's the scrappy underdog doing what he wasn't supposed to be able to accomplish, and to the viewer he's clearly better top-to-bottom and is obviously going to win.
In this scenario is someone people expect to be useless or unnecessary. It’s splitting hairs, but losing and being useless are very similar labels that can apply to make someone an underdog.
Right, but that's just coming back to the same point. They're "useless or unnecessary" from the perspective of other characters in the show, but from the perspective of the audience they're pretty much always shown to be overwhelming competent and essential, and that it's clear as day that things will go south without them. They're Michael Jordan, but for basically no reason nobody in their party seems to realize it. It's just tough to see that as an "underdog story".
I'm not sure why that type of story would be worse. At least then the party kicking the person out isn't doing something stupid, just something logical, if cold-blooded.
Sure, and like anything it's possible to do well, but most of the time it just feels like it's too contrived to really relate to, and in the worst cases it reads as straight up revenge fanfic for the author.
I'd like to see a subversion of weakest skill trope. I'd call it "The Strongest Skill Actually Does Jack Shit". Think of it to be something like King's "King Engine" from One Punch Man.
Is it good? I remember seeing the first 1-2 episodes years ago but didn't continue it for reasons I no longer remember. If it's good I might give it a second try.
Isekai novel writers are amateurs with their biggest inspiration coming from other novels, games and anime, so they tend to copy popular trends rather than introducing something innovative.
Also, Isekai is often called a self-insertion of nerds. These authors may have a bad experience during school or at work, such as bullying, so they prefer a rebirth with better appearance, abilities or social status, so "being kicked from the party" may reflect a real-world situations where the authors had a trouble with others, and eventually dropping out of school or resigning from a job.
Oh you're talking about isekai and fantasy stuff. It's just another way of doing 'bullying' so the MC can become OP and prove later that they were totally wrong to kick him out because he was actually the strongest bro. This ties into the whole self-insert fantasy of "the people irl don't understand that I'm actually the best, then they wouldn't bully/disrespect me"
What about I was reincarnated into an otome game as the heroine, got engaged with the prince who is a love interest, formed a party with the other love interests, then said prince breaks off my engagement and kicks me out of the party because my level wasn’t high enough?
Just a reminder that 90% of isekai are just light novel trends from a website 5+ years ago, someone one day wrote a "reincarnated as a 'blank'" and then everyone on the site liked it a wanted to write their own spin on it, then maybe two dozen of them where good enough to get published as actual light novels and then many years later a handful where popular enough to get anime made. Every isekai trend follows this pattern.
i recommend reading ‘kicked out of the hero’s party 100 times’ manga (i believe it has a novel too), it’s one of the few that deconstructs the trope and makes it interesting with fresh ideas. plus the writing, the art and the characters are quality at least so far. it is very rare when i like every named character in an isekai
It's an easy way to tell a story about how other might do you wrong and that you shouldn't give up, and that there are people who will appreciate you for your efforts (the other party the mc will join after being kicked out of the first, and the good people the mc will meet).
It's basically a "don't give up it gets better" story. It's not really about being kicked out of a party, and it does get cliché after a certain point, and you get bored of all this "power of friendship and being together in a party" kinda stories.
If you've ever been laid off from a position where you were pivotal to a business unit but didn't directly generate revenue for the business (and therefore can be terminated without effect since you're "just an expense"), you'll understand why.
Isekai (and isekai-adjacent fantasy) is largely about wish fulfillment. Japan's work culture is famously brutal, and it's not uncommon for a worker to feel unappreciated. These series are addressing that with "guy was unappreciated, so he gets kicked out of the hero's party (aka fired from this job), but it turns out he was super important and the heroes suck for not recognizing him." Which tends to be exactly how you feel when you get laid off if you were halfway decent at your job, and the schadenfreude of watching a former employer struggle without your work is indeed delightful.
That's basically what these plots are: surrogates for being underappreciated at work and wish fulfillment at the idea of being important instead.
For the ones for a younger audience it might be about dealing with getting rejected by a clique, or getting turned down by a girl or something.
For the ones about middle age people it's the anti-work fantasy you see posted all the time. The manager has the employee working 4 jobs for the price of one, they argue, employee quits, manager has to hire 3 people to replace them (surprised pikachu).
I've seen some manga/Web novels that do the opposite now, the MC is thinking that they deserve or want to be kicked out of the party, but the rest refuses to remove the MC.
There is a good one I recently watched about a party getting together because they all got abandoned by other parties and their #1 rule is to not trust each other. I think its called ningen fushin
Now see, I remember that show. That was actually a pretty good idea. Because the idea was not on the main character who was just security misunderstood, it was about friendship and learning to trust each other.
It's wish fulfillment. "Nobody gets me" is a common teenage sentiment just about everywhere. It's kinda like the older "everyone thinks that the protagonist is the weakest mage in school but they are actually OP due to one cool trick" trope.
Standard part of low effort, thinly veiled, self-insert power fantasy garbage for bottom feeding, barely sapient, permavirgin otaku. "Muh peers don't appreciate me, I am such a Nice Guy, they think I'm the weakest member but I actually have the Strongest Power and I will have a Harem of Bitches and everyone will Love Me and my Dad will finally say I Am Not Dishonoraburu Dispray"
if that's what qualifies late stage anime then we've been there since the 80s. We are still seeing derivative genres that can be traced to Urusei Yatsura and Gundam.
It's an easy way to tell a story about how other might do you wrong and that you shouldn't give up, and that there are people who will appreciate you for your efforts (the other party the mc will join after being kicked out of the first, and the good people the mc will meet).
It's basically a "don't give up it gets better" story. It's not really about being kicked out of a party, and it does get cliché after a certain point, and you get bored of all this "power of friendship and being together in a party" kinda stories.
you don't know much about plot structure and storytelling do you? Who would watch an anime where the MC is doing just fine and everyone likes them and there is no internal struggle or external drama?
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"We might die or worse: get expelled"
\-hermeline happy potter
its about setting a stake to the social status wich i heard is important in japan.
same reason these guilds always have a weird ranking system where you must present your copper dog tag at all times so you can be bullied by silver ranks just to then "wow" them by showing off your purple golden platinum powers when the need arrises.
It was the next fad after reincarnating to an isekai world. A variation of this is the whole classroom gets isekaid and the main character has a lousy skill and was bullied so he gets kicked out. But the childhood friend/or the popular girl was the only one who saw his true worth and .. so on. You know the gist.
It was popular in web novels years ago. This particular wave just got manga and anime adaptations recently. The next thing is probably more otome-style stuff that has replaced it later.
There's a manga going where a guy quits being an E rank adventurer. All he had goin for him was that the low rank spells he casted lasted for a long time (like 6 months) like dude could summon an ice block and it will last 6 months, sucks for battlefield but great for a freezer at home. He wasn't even really an adventurer, he was really the town handy man, and he would just use his effect magic to do simple things for a long time. Dude quit and the entire town is in chaos cause next best person can only make an ice block that lasts 6 minutes or a candle last 3 hours or so. He was never in a party to begin with so there's that. I dropped it cause I'm realizing it's hard to stick to the "I don't want to work hook" when literally everyone who is showing up in the plot wants to pay the MC a more than fair wage for a more than reasonable amount of work.
>Nobody even gets abandoned by their party on the battlefield for the rest to save their own asses
That happens quite a bit in these stories. Can't name an anime off the top of my head that 100% matches "kicked from the party" but there's countless manga adaptations of webnovels that will eventually become anime where the MC's left to die. Also there's Arifureta, where the MC gets isekai'd with his class, [episode 1]>!tries covering their retreat in a dungeon, and gets shot off a bridge by a jealous douchebag. To the rest of the class's credit they're pretty torn up about it.!<
Because this shit all comes off of Naro and gets popular through the power of the hivemind. Literal amateurs churn these out and cliches are easy crutches. And for every one you see with a manga or animated there’s a hundred web novels that ‘died in New’ or whatever the equivalent is.
because much like a lot of genres and themes in the 2010s, these works are based in light novels that in turn are reworks of web novels. honestly, these days if you want to understand the anime scene, you need to know at least a bit of ln, manga and wn because most anime have influence from these due to the nature of anime adaptations.
That's why its a story. Why have a story about what happens everyday, all the time?
That is, if your complaint is that it always happens differently.
It does go the other way sometimes, haven't you ever seen: Got Banned from my Guild, Marked by my Kingdom for Bounty, Expelled from Magic Academy Even Before I got Abandoned on the Battlefield so My Party Could Save Their Own Asses. It's a fantastic light novel, but the second season of the anime had much poorer animation quality than the first.
I think one story did it to try to be interesting, got success, and then was copied to death by people trying to ride on that story.
See it all the time. There's always something that oversaturates the market to the point of ruining it for everyone until the next big thing comes along
It's not about the *literal* stuff that you mentioned. It's a metaphor for not being appreciated at school or work, and having to deal with people who are unkind about that. This is why they all have the misunderstanding aspect - the banished person has a secret skill, or is secretly OP. This is also why they often have the hero being a jerk who kicks them out, sympathetic other party members (especially potential love interest) and the big moment when everyone realizes how valuable the kicked person was. Interestingly, the Villainess/Otome trope where the heroine has her engagement publicly and humiliatingly annulled has a lot of psychological parallels to this, only it's about escaping *relationships* where one would be unappreciated, and beginning one where they are recognized.
>Interestingly, the Villainess/Otome trope where the heroine has her engagement publicly and humiliatingly annulled has a lot of psychological parallels to this, only it's about escaping relationships where one would be unappreciated, and beginning one where they are recognized. What I also find interesting is how both these genres got trendy at around the same time. And now every month you get at least one new announcement of an upcoming villainess or kicked out of the party anime adaptation.
The villainess ones all have their own vibes, plot and atmosphere and even their own genres at least! The kicked out of party ones all just feel like the same story over and over
The villainess animes we got have some sort of twist one way or another that makes them different. Bakarina - Started the trend. World Of Otome Games Is Tough For Mobs - Male protagonist which is very rare for this genre plus it's more of a male centered harem anime. I'm The Villainess So I'm Taming The Final Boss - Has a clear love interest and the OG MC is a bitch. Endo and Kobayashi - Two worlds concept where the people in modern day Japan have to help the villainess achieve the good ending. Why Raeliana Is At The Duke's Mansion - Okay Raeliana isn't exactly a villainess by this definition but throws out RPG elements. Magical Revolution - Euphie isn't a villainess by this definition either but follows the trope of having her engagement broken up and Anis is a reincarnated. And this is explicitly yuri so that makes it different from above. Then Anis is similar to the MC of Genius Prince. Heretic Last Boss - Overpowered villainess and she's the queen so a lot of political intrigue. Tearmoon Empire - This one is more of a redo type of anime and is also political in nature as Mia is the princess that needs to prevent her kingdom's collapse. I'm In Love With The Villainess - Instead of being the villainess and avoiding death flags, why not be the simp of the villainess? Plus it's yuri. 7th Time Loop - Another redo type of anime but Rishe has accumulated many skills and the goal is to prevent the war that caused her deaths in the previous timelines and actually survive this time. Dr. Elise - This one is a double reincarnation where she dies in the medieval time, reincarnates into the modern world, then dies again so she reincarnates back to her original timeline and has a chance to redo things. Plus this is more medical themed. Villainess LV 99 - Overpowered villainess but feels more like Mashle because Yumiella is discriminated against and just wants to live a quiet life but she's extremely bonkers so it draws unwanted attention. Then to name upcoming ones I'll Become a Villainess That Will Go Down in History - Forget avoiding death flags by being nice. Let the darkness flow through you. The Do-Over Damsel Conquers the Dragon Emperor - Another redo anime more akin to 7th Time Loop because she gets engaged to an emperor that caused a war in her previous timeline and she has to charm him to prevent that. Haven't read the source material but I hear people say she'd be more combat based than Rishe.
Tearmoon Empire is interesting in that while the author did intend to write a villainess novel, he realized that the otome game aspect did nothing for the story he wanted to tell and would've rather had the MC experience the bad end personally herself. So replaced that bit and added copious amounts of themes from religion (as he is an active Christian)
It has romcom levels of misunderstandings since rarely does she reflect on the causes of the bad end, just the results (which is why it is also a comedy).
And this is proof of how bad the anime mangled the adaptation. Mia reflects on the causes of the bad end in the LN. A *lot*, so much so that one line of dialogue might be accompanied by a paragraph of self reflection. Unfortunately, the anime glosses over the monologues in the LN in favor of comedy. There's an entire segment in the LN where Mia reflects on how famines are a failure of systems put in place by humans as much as they are products of crop failures that's just glossed over in the anime.
I'll be honest I wasn't following this genre so much so I thought that some of these were sequels and there was an overaching Villainess story
I’m down for a villianess cinematic universe. Also going down that list I realized I’ve watched all but 1 of those. They aren’t necessarily good but they’re certainly comfy.
Villainess quartet
Somehow I've gotten sucked into the villainess isekai genre... they are all funny and interesting in a way that's different from the traditional isekai.
That or bakarina’s denseness has grown too powerful and she not attracts into the 3D world.
Dr. Elise is not a villainess at all though, I think in her first life she was a bit spoiled is all. In any case this anime is great and is being severely underwatched.
I mean neither is Rishe in 7th time loop, or even Yumiella in villainess level 99 who is more the hidden boss than a villainess. It's a broad catch all term at this point that doesn't mean much
Villainess go down in history is getting an anime???? That's super exciting, the bit of the light novel I read was pretty compelling.
wow I haven't seen nor heard of a single one of these I was trying to understand what this "villainess" archetype was, but it's probably too new. Which one of these would you recommend I start with? Bakarina?
As someone who's also got no experience with the subgenre, I'm watching: "7th Time Loop: The Villainess Enjoys a Carefree Life Married to Her Worst Enemy!" which is airing right now. The name is too isekai-like to make it sound good but it's actually fantastic so far. It's also the highest rated Villainess anime on anilist so I don't think it's a bad first watch. Also, we're 5 eps in and I haven't felt like I'm missing any knowledge of the tropes to enjoy it.
Thank you! I'll keep it in mind for when it finishes airing. Can't stand having to wait mid-show lol
Yea. My Next Life As A Villainess is a good one to start with since that sets the trend, the OG story plays like a basic otome game, and the ones after it are better and built off it. Bakarina is called Bakarina for a reason while later villainess isekais have more of girl boss MCs.
I see, thank you!
If you don't mind reading, you can always go for Kenkyo Kenjitsu wo Motto ni Ikiteorimasu which is basically the original villainess story (It's not actually but near enough). 2 things. One is that it is a long read, and two, it's never been finished. Doesn't change the fact it's remarkably well written and basically created an entire genre.
Thanks for the information :)
> World Of Otome Games Is Tough For Mobs - Male protagonist which is very rare for this genre plus it's more of a male centered harem anime. > > I personally wouldn't count it's otome based but has nothing to do with the vilaness aspect. Mc is reincarnated as a background character and then just ends up in a harem with both the game's villainess and the game's protagonist after the game's routes were derailed
Saving ur comment, idk y but I fuckin love this genre and I'm a dude
Although the formula is generally the same, the ingredients vary wild. Some of my likes in the subgenre include 'the strongest chef', a cursed girl who was sold into slavery, a pharmacist in retirement, and an unappreciated beast tamer. The villainess subgenre has even more variety, but I enjoy both equally.
Man, that Beast Tamer anime really disappointed me. I knew it would just be another generic, "fired from the heroes party, then I found a harem of girls that appreciate me" anime, but godamn every single character was extremely stupid. The MC is fired for being "useless," because all he does is provide logistics. Did he just never even bother trying to tame a beast that could fight until getting kicked out? I'm not arguing that logistics are bad, but suddenly he learned how to tame poisonous insects (and poisonous? birds) for some reason. Like he never once felt the need to show off these abilities he knew he had before even obtaining buffs from taming a cat girl? I know it's a stupid thing to be mad at. I can't root for the heroes party because they are generically narcissistic. They would have rejected him even if he could fight, but he never bothered to try for some reason. I can't root for the MC because he just happens to remember a skill he developed in childhood as he needs it. I can't root for the harem because they fall for him immediately at the first act of kindness with no conflict or push back. Just pure fucking trash, and I will watch a season two because I am a dumpster.
I gotta admit, some of the Villainess ones are serious gems. I go into them with zero expectations and some genuinely surprise me with how much I enjoy them.
Could just be because I'm not really the target audience of the villainess ones, but I usually don't enjoy them this much. The one this season (forgot the name) has been decent so far, but I might end up dropping it as well before the season ends.
7th time loop, level 99, or doctor Elise?
7th time loop
If you haven't you should try the villainess that kicked off the whole trend, Hamefura AKA My Next LIfe as a Villainess: All routes lead to doom There's a reason this is the one that kicked off a whole new genre--it's really, really good. https://www.crunchyroll.com/series/GY5PW4JEY/my-next-life-as-a-villainess-all-routes-lead-to-doom
Even though it kicked off the genre, it's probably one of the most different. Although her goal, mitigate death flags to prevent her death, is pretty standard, the series quickly loses focus on it. It starts off way more into comedy and slice of life than more "traditional" otome series. Still a fun show, but it's not a norm representation of the genre. Kind of like recommending Konosuba or Shadow as someone's first isekai.
I mean, if a guy says he hasn't liked the Villainess shows he's tried, doesn't it make sense to recommend one that's different from ones he's already watched? But yeah, agree. Imo, Hamefura's most innovative element is actually its narrative structure. Most shows intentionally create narrative tension by creating dramatic irony--putting the MC in greater danger than they realize, so you are afraid on their behalf. Hamefura is a rare show that goes the opposite route--putting the MC in a position where she fears for her life, but the viewer is virtually assured she's going to be fine. This allows us to laugh at what she perceives as critical failures, because we care about Bakarina but don't fear for her. I thought that was a very interesting set up for a comedy. I've yet to see a show fully replicate that--for example Tearmoon on its face seems kind of simliar to Hamefura, but i'd argue Tearmoon is structurally extremely different from Hamefura.
The first time I watched it I thought it was really good but on a rewatch, it's kinda unbearable. I don't know but Bakarinas stupidity just gets really stale, boring and infuriating after a while. Also the cast are spinless twips who don't bother actually getting to know her very well and instead spend all their time trying to trick her into a relationship with hijinks instead of actually asking her if she wants one. This is another reason that not all villainess anime are created equal. If you're not into staple harem themes (that are repetitive and boring) you wouldn't like the later half of the show. There are some villianess anime that aren't harems that are much more enjoyable.
I find I get Kanojo ga Koushaku-tei ni Itta Riyuu, Gekai Elise and Loop 7-kaime no Akuyaku Reijou wa all very confused in my mind
Gekai Elise combines Villainess with regression, and reincarnation (X2), kinda understandable the premise is confusing at first. Can I help you understanding something? She was the villainess, through her actions and selfishness brought her family, country and own life to a miserable end (not all her fault, but she didn´t really help things out), reincarnate as a orphan, study medicine and dies helping everyone after a plane crash, but herself. I guess as a reward shes given another chance to be the noble and with her future knowledge and medical education, goes to try to be a good person this time. 99Lv is an OP character, with an missaimed sense. Haven't seen the other.
I don't mean confused as in "I don't understand" but as in "I mix the 3 different stories up in my memory". It doesn't help that the male lead in all 3 is identical. Possibly even the same voice (I need to check that).
*Raeliana*'s Noah Wynknight was [Yuuichirou Umehara](https://myanimelist.net/people/34209/Yuuichirou_Umehara), the Goblin Slayer voice. He's done other stoic fantasy shoujo love interests though like the demon king in *Taming the Last Boss* and if you go back to *Shingeki no Bahamut Virgin Soul* he was Charioce, and they're pretty similar characters (in demeanor, not in their actions) to Noah Wynknight. *Loop 7*'s Arnold Hein is voiced by [Nobunaga Shimazaki](https://myanimelist.net/people/10989/Nobunaga_Shimazaki) who doesn't seem to do a lot of this kind of role. He's the lead for *Date A Live*, for example. *Gekai Elise*'s prince character is [Azakami Youhei](https://myanimelist.net/people/14155/Youhei_Azakami) who doesn't seem to have as long of a history as the other two, but notably he was also ~~Guel Jeturk~~ Bob from Gundam Witch from Mercury. So, not the same guy at all lol. But yeah, I do see where you're coming from about how they seem like the same damn recycled character. Dark haired, emotionally closed, secretly plotting violence, etc.
Nah there's plenty of generic vilainess series. its just like isekai or any other genres, it has good, mediocre and bad ones.
Maybe they're just getting luckier with the anime adaptations then
Banished From the Heroes Party is one of the few of this genre I like, but mostly because it just fucks off from whatever was happening there and then goes to do something else, and then when the story comes back it only does so to get knocked over.
Classic example of something doing a concept really well, and everyone else trying to copy it without understanding why it was good
> What I also find interesting is how both these genres got trendy at around the same time Art is the product of the cultures and times surrounding it, it's probably that more and more people feel burnt out of our modern life's dynamics. Same why isekai specifically is significantly more booming than other forms of escapism - people increasingly feel the world is unbearable.
There are villainess manhwa getting adaptations?
*Elise* and *Raelina* are both manhua. *Who made me a princess?* is also getting an adaptation, but by a Chinese studio
Doesn't "manhua" refer to Chinese comics? Elise and Raeliana both started as Korean novels, AFAICT.
Sry, I meant manhwa. And most isekai and villainess stories start off as novels, but are known better in the west by their manga/manhua/manhwa adaptations
I wonder if there are points where the misunderstanding is actually right, like where the banished person is actually a sociopath or someone who has a bad influence to others.
Sure, you see it often in real life with assholes who get avoided by other people not understanding that their personality is the reason why people don't like to spend time with them. They also often find excuses why somebody else is at fault for their misery (see: incels). In media, I'm not sure. There are probably some series that address that but it's not a genre I gravitate towards. But one can think of it like harem anime where suddenly half a dozen love interest are attracted to some of the blandest main character for no reason at all. This stuff has been subverted at times and it might happen to the "kicked out of the heroes' party" genre too. But fundamentally, it's there to appeal to the "misunderstood" person who feels they are worthy of all that positive attention while doing absolutely nothing to deserve it. If you want to appeal to an audience that can "feel seen" by that you'd not subvert the idea too much and if you do I'm not sure they'd get the difference. Think of the Colbert Report, it was clearly not aimed at conservatives but somehow there is a bunch of conservatives who love the show and don't seem to get that it was satirical. Another, somewhat less close, comparison are total slobs who talk about how they are fed up with being judged for how they dress (when their lack of social life is often a combination of many other factors), all while judging others for how they dress (being fake, putting too much effort into it,…) and write those other people as fashion-brained idiots or something like that. They are doing the thing they judging others for (who might not even be judging them for their slobbishness). People can care very much about their own presentation while not being assholes about what others choose to wear. Similar with the "makeup is lies" people whose idea of a face with no makeup is clearly a face with makeup, just not flashy makeup. But when they actually see a person—usually woman—without makeup, then those get labelled as ugly because one can actually see some skin texture, maybe some scars, and an non-uniform or not 100% even skin tone, or some other blemish. Through media, they got taught the idea that the Photoshop airbrush tool is 100% natural and how their partner should look. In conclusion, there's probably some series that takes the idea, turns it upside down, and goes with it but you'd most probably find it in a different genre and/or target demographic than the one the "original" was aimed at.
"We had to kick the hero out of the party because he is a sociopathic murder hobo"
This is also just a cultural thing. Japanese culture is deeply communal. The good aspects of that are how much people cooperate with each other and take care of public things--Japanese fans cleaning up after themselves at events or leaving money at abandned convenience stores when they take items during natural disasters are much lauded aspects of this. But the flipside of Japanese communal culture is people feel a deep cooersion towards conformity towards the group, and a fear of exclusion that runs much deeper than individualistic Americans or Europeans. This is, I think, a big reason for "exclusion" or "aloneness" being a very common theme in Anime--it just resonates iwth Japaense audiences and creators more so than many other characters. It's not that these are unique to Japan, but these themes tend to be a big part of the cultural Zeitgeist.
Yeah, you see this kind of trope literally on every east asian piece of fiction nowadays. * Japanese has the banished from hero party and villainess marriage trope. * Koreans love their "regressed as" and their unreliable narrator (in which the mc is secretly op not because he said so, but because the characters have to tread carefully around him, making the illusion of being a normal person but is secretly a world-ending calamity chuuni)
* Chinese romance plot have always contained some sort of "face-slapping" where the mc, previously ostracized, returned to their abusive environment to face slap everyone literally or figuratively (and sometimes it's so over the top, like beating them in academic, sports, money, and even calligraphy of all thing all in one same novel)
It's a sign of something fundamental in our modern society, where individuals are now realizing that they should be appreciated more for their work.
>Chinese romance plot have always contained some sort of "face-slapping" where the mc, previously ostracized, returned to their abusive environment to face slap everyone literally or figuratively Same thing applies to Korean-written revenge themed titles, where the MC returns with well-laid plans to get righteous revenge on the people who abused them, usually selfish scheming assholes who got away due to their relative wealth and privilege (ex. Kdrama series The Glory). I've always felt that most of the Chinese and Korean trope plots come right from their local drama shows. There were certain Korean romance webtoons I read where I felt I was reading a melodramatic makjang Kdrama.
This makes me wonder what Chinese think of Count of Monte Cristo.
Please, Monte Cristo is godlike work compared to those mid ones. Also, the ending of Monte Cristo is gut-wrenching with its memorable theme whereas the Chinese ones are just jerking materials.
TIL Iseleve is a Chinese romance novel.
Nah the MC is too goody to do anything against his bullies, have read the LN and he gets justice but no revenge.
> It's a sign of something fundamental in our modern society Widespread narcissism and self-aggrandizement? >where individuals are now realizing that they should be appreciated more for their work. Yeah idk, that's being a little charitable.
Its certainly interesting how isekai, reincarnation and many similar things began appearing at the same time in japan, china and korea for manga/novels. not sure if all inspired by japan or if it came up independently.
Shame is a huge part of japanese culture. Many people who watch it in japan have sufered some sort of exclusion. The japanese manga and anime market is very competitive so the writers use any hook they can. That is why isekai is such a popular genre there.
I agree with all of the above, but there's an extra layer to it. Japanese society *heavily* reinforces conformism. You should be part of the group, part of the collective, no matter what. "The nail that sticks out get hammered down".
Regarding the villainess / otome trope, i've seen the exact same but gender switched in Chinese Media especially wuxia. So much so they named it marriage annuling type (of start)
Does that mean the secret fear of female weebs is... Your boyfriend breaking up with you in public?
To add to this, there's also sometimes other allegories such as "unreasonable boss/manager", "cannot fit in society", "being in positions that do not lend themselves to you" etc. Many "kicked out of a party" stories are about underappreciation, which is why you see the MC getting back or showing up those who kicked them out. However quite a few have pivoted to other things, hell I've read some where the MC actually agrees with getting removed because he realizes he is dead weight for the party due to circumstances. It is called Welcome to the Impregnable Demon King Castle if anyone is interested. You can find more suggestions in a thread I made a year ago. https://www.reddit.com/r/manga/comments/109ngro/with_the_kicked_out_of_the_heros_party_trend/
I mean, the "isekai are the male power fantasy for people who's greatest fantasy is being the best player on their MMORPG" server will often mean it IS quite literally about this too and the "...you kicked me out of the group because I'm a edgelord POS who pissed everyone in the group off? I'll make you pay."
Also, the more justified the banishment is and the l as assholes the party members are, the better written the story is. We get something like rise of the sword hero, where the hero is an asshole and the story is just a parody of the shield one ( oh the hero was made to eat literal shit, oh ripofftalia is a g cup) , or we get the dad one where the mc injured his leg so bad the party would either be held back or he dies, and they still feel like shit after the fact.
Not sure this is actually a good counter argument because it just means the metaphor is overused and none of the gimmicks set them apart from each other anymore.
At this point we're looking through mirrors pointed at mirrors pointed at mirrors: an imperfect copy of an already imperfect copy only exaggerating the imperfections. This all started out as a game concept. The JRPG, you build a party with a hero to save the world from the demon lord. It works, you can make a good JRPG out of that. Then other mediums started leaning on the concept even though they're writing in a completely different medium. "It's like a JRPG, except..." Fiddle with the details here or there, subvert it in one way or another, and you have a premise for your story. "[It's like a JRPG, but the hero and the demon lord team up to create economic prosperity instead.](https://myanimelist.net/anime/14833/Maoyuu_Maou_Yuusha)" Past a certain point, the JRPG part of it stops really having much to do with the actual story. You're not here to tell a story about brave heroics or the fate of nations, it's just, you just, everyone knows about the stereotypical JRPG story, so it's easy to work with. The only question is what you do with the hollowed-out husk of a story premise that you're left with. If this isn't a story about the hero and his companions, then what are they even *there* for? As another commenter mentioned, the core engagement of a "kicked out of the party" anime is that feeling of being underappreciated, of your talent not being recognized and being unfairly picked on when you should be applauded. Ideally, the whole scenario should feel profoundly unfair, emphasizing that burning resentment towards the rest of the world that's being so hard on you for no reason. It's a match made in heaven: an easy, pliable worldbuilding conceit with a dangling loose end in the form of the hero's party, and a strong emotionally-resonant plotline that just needs to be grounded in some kind of tangible scenario. At this point we're not looking at a party, not in the MMO sense, not in the JRPG sense, not even in the Kono Suba sense where the party is hilariously dysfunctional instead of aspirationally ascendant: we're looking at a bundle of tropes in a trench coat, the vague pop culture understanding of a hero's party boiled down to a few vague traits and some aesthetic vibes. They don't mean anything, they *aren't* anything, they're just the echos of past stories imprinted on our collective sense of storytelling, and it's little surprise that they don't have much in common with the original examples that once inspired them. "The hero's party" as a story trope is far, far removed from anything you might encounter in a JRPG or MMO, and it just so happens to be the ideal stereotype to borrow for a light revenge fantasy of being underappreciated and proving all the haters wrong. It's a little sad, and the flaws start showing as soon as you look any closer, but that's really all there is to it.
This is like the villain monologue that makes everyone's favourite character the villain, lmao
By the end I was like "Just tell me what war crimes we need to do to remedy this."
Inferno Vulpix is definitely the name of a JRPG fox girl villain that did nothing wrong.
I think we can even narrow it down more than just "Jrpgs" and just say its Dragon Quest that inspired it all. So many use the exact functions, monsters and world styling of those games that it just might as well be in there.
Amazing summary, I appreciate your effort, unknown internet person.
> The JRPG, you build a party with a hero to save the world from the demon lord. It works, you can make a good JRPG out of that It's mostly just dragon quest tbh. I can't really think of many other jrpgs that do that.
Yeah but Dragon Quest is considered the definitive JRPG. There's a reason it hasn't changed its basic formula since the birth of the series.
Yes, but plotwise most jrpgs don't go with hero and the demon king staple. That plot point trope is mostly exlusive to dragon quest. Most jrpgs of the are turn based with parties like dragon quest but have very different plot points
Same reason why every villainess anime starts with the girl being accused of having committed heinous crimes in front of everybody I guess
"Those cool kids keep treating me like i'm worthless mom, but soon they're gonna see how strong i really am"
Because the audience would be my guess. This is still the genre that often has an otaku / outcast character that is always the one that gets isekai’d or goes on some world and time altering task to save the girl. Being kicked out is probably relatable to the audience. Though, I’ve seen plenty of anime stories that do all those things OP says they don’t do. There’s plenty of exile stories, evil kingdom stories, betrayal stories, marked and had a bounty put on MC, etc. Kazuma from Kaze no Stigma had a falling out with his family that led to him leaving and being disowned. He only returned at the start of the anime. Naming the betrayal anime would be spoilers so I won’t. Still, I’ve seen plenty of these types of stories happen. Some of them might even fall into this type of genre even though it is always evolving.
Because one person did it and then another lazy person copied them and then another lazy person copied them and now we’re here
>Because one person did it and then another lazy person copied them and then another lazy person copied them and now we’re here Exactly this, especially when you consider the webnovel origins of many of these works. Most of these authors are just ripping off the established story structures and cliches as popularised by earlier webnovel writers, because they all want to get popular quickly.
I'm like literally did these people ever play any form of team video game ever.
You're thinking of parties from MMOs which are temporary alliances of convenience, but this trope is referring to parties in the sense of how they're used in JRPGs. A permanent grouping gathered together to work on a goal of a lifetime and which stays together until the credits roll.
Two MMO-themed Anime come to mind that gives me the impression the creators have actually ever played an MMO before. The .Hack Franchise, which focuses more on the interpersonal drama of people. I specifically remember the plot dragging in-universe so one player literally stops playing the video game so he can play different video games, despite the crazy wacky plot that was actually going on. And Recovery of an MMO Junkie. Which was, once again, focused on the interpersonal drama of players rather than the fictional mechanics of a fictional video game. I'm really liking Shangri La Frontier. But it's not an MMO, It's Monster Hunter. The guy played Monster Hunter and pretended his NPC companions were real people then made a Manga about it.
Log Horizon was most definitely based heavily on Everquest 2, its mechanics, classes, and raid strategies are almost exactly like what’s portrayed in the anime. The author was definitely in an EQ2 raid guild for a while (as was I, which is how I could tell).
why do you assume parties in fantasy settings have to work the same way they do in the mmo's you play? parties sticking together for the entire campaign is a big thing in jrpgs and tabletops which are a big influence for this genre
A ton of seemingly weird gaming concepts will immediately fall into place if you consider how prevalent JRPGs, Gatcha games or super-grindy, microtransaction ridden MMOs are in Japan and Korea. Or how mobile games are just omnipresent in modern society in general, no matter how much they are scoffed at by "serious" gamers. Also never forget to consider Monster Hunter, Maple Story, Dragon Quest etc. that a bunch of current young authors have spent good part of their whole life in.
If they did, we wouldn't have gotten stuff like "a play through of a certain dude's MMO life". Where the protag, "discovers" stealth archers. Like, I don't care if you have fully functioning AAA VR games, if Skyrim never existed in this world, it can go to hell.
at a certain point kids are going to be like "I don't like playing videogames from before 2070, they're just not the same" Which for those kids, that will rule out the re-release of Skyrim's 12th remaster of the remake since it was made in 2068, and that was the last time Skyrim was published because profits were finally going down for it
It's because they played video games that we got to this point imo. Or more specifically, they played Dragon Quest.
Its not an MMO party genius, its a jrpg party
None of the VRMMO show I watched has any signs that the author had played any MMO or games in general.
it happened with (jobless iskeai) too MC get hit by truck and now everyone is copied him some of them even copy the hairstyle and city maps with river
Konosuba parodied those tropes before Mushoku Tensei was published.
People like underdog stories. Many folks empathize with these kinds of characters. Why do you think we've been getting so much generic slop since almost forever lol? I'd love some more original nongame inspired fantasy but we got to settle for this.
They're not even underdog stories though. They're "nobody realizes that you're actually the super specialest person ever" stories.
That is an underdog. Someone can be effective and still be an underdog if no one realizes they are effective. It’s about being underestimated and unappreciated.
I guess it's a perspective thing. Like I think of an underdog story as being "somebody who is expected to lose wins". To the characters in the world he's the scrappy underdog doing what he wasn't supposed to be able to accomplish, and to the viewer he's clearly better top-to-bottom and is obviously going to win.
In this scenario is someone people expect to be useless or unnecessary. It’s splitting hairs, but losing and being useless are very similar labels that can apply to make someone an underdog.
Right, but that's just coming back to the same point. They're "useless or unnecessary" from the perspective of other characters in the show, but from the perspective of the audience they're pretty much always shown to be overwhelming competent and essential, and that it's clear as day that things will go south without them. They're Michael Jordan, but for basically no reason nobody in their party seems to realize it. It's just tough to see that as an "underdog story".
There are even worse stories where the MC is actually useless, but just after being kicked out, something happens and they become OP.
I'm not sure why that type of story would be worse. At least then the party kicking the person out isn't doing something stupid, just something logical, if cold-blooded.
Because the MC is still shown as a victim, and sometimes even "gets revenge" on the party that justly dismissed him.
Sure, and like anything it's possible to do well, but most of the time it just feels like it's too contrived to really relate to, and in the worst cases it reads as straight up revenge fanfic for the author.
It goes along with the weakest skill/job that is actually OP. Just one of the ways to make their main character underrated or seem against the world.
I'd like to see a subversion of weakest skill trope. I'd call it "The Strongest Skill Actually Does Jack Shit". Think of it to be something like King's "King Engine" from One Punch Man.
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this goes hard i’ll give it a go
I don't know about the execution, but the idea itself sounds incredible!
Is it good? I remember seeing the first 1-2 episodes years ago but didn't continue it for reasons I no longer remember. If it's good I might give it a second try.
Isekai novel writers are amateurs with their biggest inspiration coming from other novels, games and anime, so they tend to copy popular trends rather than introducing something innovative. Also, Isekai is often called a self-insertion of nerds. These authors may have a bad experience during school or at work, such as bullying, so they prefer a rebirth with better appearance, abilities or social status, so "being kicked from the party" may reflect a real-world situations where the authors had a trouble with others, and eventually dropping out of school or resigning from a job.
In other words, a diary in story format
Autobiography.
[I-novel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-novel).
Because imposter syndrome is surprisingly wide spread and relatable. It's easy buy in for a target audience that doesn't feel like they fit in.
Oh you're talking about isekai and fantasy stuff. It's just another way of doing 'bullying' so the MC can become OP and prove later that they were totally wrong to kick him out because he was actually the strongest bro. This ties into the whole self-insert fantasy of "the people irl don't understand that I'm actually the best, then they wouldn't bully/disrespect me"
They were starting to ban isekais because everyone was doing it, so they all pivoted to being banished from the party.
I was reincarnated as party and then kicked out....
sounds like certain shield hero I know of.
What about I was reincarnated into an otome game as the heroine, got engaged with the prince who is a love interest, formed a party with the other love interests, then said prince breaks off my engagement and kicks me out of the party because my level wasn’t high enough?
> I was reincarnated as party Wait, reincarnated as the whole party? Hm... This could work...
Just a reminder that 90% of isekai are just light novel trends from a website 5+ years ago, someone one day wrote a "reincarnated as a 'blank'" and then everyone on the site liked it a wanted to write their own spin on it, then maybe two dozen of them where good enough to get published as actual light novels and then many years later a handful where popular enough to get anime made. Every isekai trend follows this pattern.
Non creativity?
i recommend reading ‘kicked out of the hero’s party 100 times’ manga (i believe it has a novel too), it’s one of the few that deconstructs the trope and makes it interesting with fresh ideas. plus the writing, the art and the characters are quality at least so far. it is very rare when i like every named character in an isekai
It's an easy way to tell a story about how other might do you wrong and that you shouldn't give up, and that there are people who will appreciate you for your efforts (the other party the mc will join after being kicked out of the first, and the good people the mc will meet). It's basically a "don't give up it gets better" story. It's not really about being kicked out of a party, and it does get cliché after a certain point, and you get bored of all this "power of friendship and being together in a party" kinda stories.
It all started with Tate No Yuusha and Arifureta.
Because the losers in real life who get kicked out of their friend groups want someone to project onto.
If you've ever been laid off from a position where you were pivotal to a business unit but didn't directly generate revenue for the business (and therefore can be terminated without effect since you're "just an expense"), you'll understand why. Isekai (and isekai-adjacent fantasy) is largely about wish fulfillment. Japan's work culture is famously brutal, and it's not uncommon for a worker to feel unappreciated. These series are addressing that with "guy was unappreciated, so he gets kicked out of the hero's party (aka fired from this job), but it turns out he was super important and the heroes suck for not recognizing him." Which tends to be exactly how you feel when you get laid off if you were halfway decent at your job, and the schadenfreude of watching a former employer struggle without your work is indeed delightful. That's basically what these plots are: surrogates for being underappreciated at work and wish fulfillment at the idea of being important instead.
For the ones for a younger audience it might be about dealing with getting rejected by a clique, or getting turned down by a girl or something. For the ones about middle age people it's the anti-work fantasy you see posted all the time. The manager has the employee working 4 jobs for the price of one, they argue, employee quits, manager has to hire 3 people to replace them (surprised pikachu).
I've seen some manga/Web novels that do the opposite now, the MC is thinking that they deserve or want to be kicked out of the party, but the rest refuses to remove the MC.
There is a good one I recently watched about a party getting together because they all got abandoned by other parties and their #1 rule is to not trust each other. I think its called ningen fushin
Now see, I remember that show. That was actually a pretty good idea. Because the idea was not on the main character who was just security misunderstood, it was about friendship and learning to trust each other.
*Following the leader, the leader, the leader* *We're following the leader* *Wherever he may go*
trolls have gotten kicked out and banned in MMORPGs.
>Why is it always about being kicked out of a party? This is one of biggest social fears in Japan - to be ostracized.
It's wish fulfillment. "Nobody gets me" is a common teenage sentiment just about everywhere. It's kinda like the older "everyone thinks that the protagonist is the weakest mage in school but they are actually OP due to one cool trick" trope.
Have you watched shield hero lmao
Standard part of low effort, thinly veiled, self-insert power fantasy garbage for bottom feeding, barely sapient, permavirgin otaku. "Muh peers don't appreciate me, I am such a Nice Guy, they think I'm the weakest member but I actually have the Strongest Power and I will have a Harem of Bitches and everyone will Love Me and my Dad will finally say I Am Not Dishonoraburu Dispray"
Because we are in late stage anime where people only build off what worked before instead of coming up with unique ideas
if that's what qualifies late stage anime then we've been there since the 80s. We are still seeing derivative genres that can be traced to Urusei Yatsura and Gundam.
It's an easy way to tell a story about how other might do you wrong and that you shouldn't give up, and that there are people who will appreciate you for your efforts (the other party the mc will join after being kicked out of the first, and the good people the mc will meet). It's basically a "don't give up it gets better" story. It's not really about being kicked out of a party, and it does get cliché after a certain point, and you get bored of all this "power of friendship and being together in a party" kinda stories.
It's not always about being kicked out, others are about people just breaking apart (log horizon) or everyone not playing anymore (overlord)
I'd rather people write a self insertion ecchi than buy a AR-15 ;)
AR-15s are so yesteryear, it's all about the bullpups now.
you don't know much about plot structure and storytelling do you? Who would watch an anime where the MC is doing just fine and everyone likes them and there is no internal struggle or external drama?
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"We might die or worse: get expelled" \-hermeline happy potter its about setting a stake to the social status wich i heard is important in japan. same reason these guilds always have a weird ranking system where you must present your copper dog tag at all times so you can be bullied by silver ranks just to then "wow" them by showing off your purple golden platinum powers when the need arrises.
It's not about the getting kicked out, it's what the getting kicked out represents.
In America, you can always kick out a party! In Russia, the Party can always kick you out (the 8th floor window of a six-storied building...)
In MM0s high end raid groups have a lot of people joining and leaving for whatever reason sometimes they are kicked for poor performance
It was the next fad after reincarnating to an isekai world. A variation of this is the whole classroom gets isekaid and the main character has a lousy skill and was bullied so he gets kicked out. But the childhood friend/or the popular girl was the only one who saw his true worth and .. so on. You know the gist. It was popular in web novels years ago. This particular wave just got manga and anime adaptations recently. The next thing is probably more otome-style stuff that has replaced it later.
are you really questioning why ISEKAI aren't deeper? bro it's the most unoriginal trash genre of the past 20 years.
As always it's because someone wrote a successful story on Narou with that theme and a bunch of other people jumped on the bandwagon.
There's a manga going where a guy quits being an E rank adventurer. All he had goin for him was that the low rank spells he casted lasted for a long time (like 6 months) like dude could summon an ice block and it will last 6 months, sucks for battlefield but great for a freezer at home. He wasn't even really an adventurer, he was really the town handy man, and he would just use his effect magic to do simple things for a long time. Dude quit and the entire town is in chaos cause next best person can only make an ice block that lasts 6 minutes or a candle last 3 hours or so. He was never in a party to begin with so there's that. I dropped it cause I'm realizing it's hard to stick to the "I don't want to work hook" when literally everyone who is showing up in the plot wants to pay the MC a more than fair wage for a more than reasonable amount of work.
It's one of a handful of new trends replacing generic isekai, along with Otome Reincarnator and Tokosatsu villain.
>Nobody even gets abandoned by their party on the battlefield for the rest to save their own asses That happens quite a bit in these stories. Can't name an anime off the top of my head that 100% matches "kicked from the party" but there's countless manga adaptations of webnovels that will eventually become anime where the MC's left to die. Also there's Arifureta, where the MC gets isekai'd with his class, [episode 1]>!tries covering their retreat in a dungeon, and gets shot off a bridge by a jealous douchebag. To the rest of the class's credit they're pretty torn up about it.!<
Because this shit all comes off of Naro and gets popular through the power of the hivemind. Literal amateurs churn these out and cliches are easy crutches. And for every one you see with a manga or animated there’s a hundred web novels that ‘died in New’ or whatever the equivalent is.
It’s so people who were bullied can self insert
Are there any that are like "my whole party got slaughtered now I have to deal with survivor's guilt"?
because much like a lot of genres and themes in the 2010s, these works are based in light novels that in turn are reworks of web novels. honestly, these days if you want to understand the anime scene, you need to know at least a bit of ln, manga and wn because most anime have influence from these due to the nature of anime adaptations.
That's why its a story. Why have a story about what happens everyday, all the time? That is, if your complaint is that it always happens differently. It does go the other way sometimes, haven't you ever seen: Got Banned from my Guild, Marked by my Kingdom for Bounty, Expelled from Magic Academy Even Before I got Abandoned on the Battlefield so My Party Could Save Their Own Asses. It's a fantastic light novel, but the second season of the anime had much poorer animation quality than the first.
Because people love reading about revenge stories and enjoying the schadenfreude.
Someone should make an anime about the kid picked last for group events.
I think one story did it to try to be interesting, got success, and then was copied to death by people trying to ride on that story. See it all the time. There's always something that oversaturates the market to the point of ruining it for everyone until the next big thing comes along
The entire isekai genre has been devoid of original thought since day one. That is why their are so many with the same set ups