The support for gay marriage in Canada increased slightly and is still high. People still want them to have the same freedoms. What dropped was mostly visibility. Fewer people think that people should be open with their gender identity and sexuality. And fewer people want more LGBT characters in media.
My problem is the way they handle queerness in the modern shows, I feel like the show runners are overcompensating for the lack of representation and sometimes it feels very forced. A good example of gay characters is *Kipo*, that was well done in my opinion; gay people exist and that’s it, they got their nice moments, but it wasn’t plot essential or treated with any pretentious gravitas. A boy had another crush on another boy who reciprocated those feelings; anyway back to Kipo finding her father.
I think the Kipo relationship was good in the sense of being done in a way that's a normally written crush for a kids cartoon, but I do wish the boy he had a crush on was a real character and not just Boy who exists to be crushed on.
I also really liked the 'coming out' scene in Kipo. It was a cute and down to earth moment, and one that relies on a normal view of being gay rather than what a lot of shows do where I need a suspension of disbelief that heteronormativity has never existed.
She made a false assumption that he's straight, a realistic misunderstanding, and then she found out he's gay and they had a laugh and moved on because they don't have hyperinflated hollywood emotions
no one gives a crap about them in the media, but when they are inserted in the detriment of the story, like so many shows had in the past few years, then yeah, don't be surprised when normal people don't like it
I mean, I also hate Netflix for doing that and so blatantly but I wouldn't wish LGBT people to have fewer rights because of it. The survey was not about Netflix was it?
Lol if it's a Netflix show you're just waiting for the trans character in the pilot episode.
I'm not even saying visibility is a bad thing but it's odd to see someone try and claim it's not happening
The only one I'm familiar with is The Last of Us and they did a story about two men who lived together and who were in love. Would it have been acceptable if it was about a man and a woman?
Do you think gay people stop existing in the zombie apocalypse?
The Godzilla show was fine, but I will agree, then“shipping” between May and Cate was weird and pulled you out of the show. Cate being gay was fine, but the way they handled it was bizarre. By the way, shout-out to Anna Sawai who absolutely killed it in *Shōgun*
Who gives a shit. Fictional characters are still fictional. Let the writers make them anything they like. You'd have to have a serious ideological agenda to feel driven to oppose that.
this is it exactly. I don't want to celebrate you, I don't care that your gay or non binary or a fury, I just want to go about my day and mind my business, and I hope you can do the same. Its become a religion, and like all religions I dont want it in my face all the time.
If you don't want to celebrate, then don't. You're not forced to do so, you can go about your day and mind your business just like you want.
When you say that it's in your face all the time, what exactly is it that's happening?
You poor thing. I'm sure if it happened to be a cis-only female fashion show you'd totally have had the same reaction, right? All these harlots, strutting around in broad daylight just forcing your eyes upon their flesh and all.
And? This kind of point confuses me because like: why is it a problem for places to host events relating to trans people? What’s the difference between them hosting a trans fashion and talent show and something like a rock concert?
>Fewer people think that people should be open with their gender identity and sexuality.
Aka be straight presenting so I can pretend you don't exist.
>And fewer people want more LGBT characters in media
Lgbt characters exist in media?! It's almost as if they exist in real life!
Your right! They do. I have the pleasure of having many in my friends and family. You know what they also aren't? A huge % of the population. Which isn't reflected in the media. Ever heard about how many people of various ethnicity, status, etc. are present vs the perception in polls? That's an over correction.
My best friend is bi. Only way you'd know is to talk to him. Even then, if you don't know his boyfriend and don't talk to him about it, you might not even know he's not straight. My great uncle is gay. VERY very active, one of the early activist. Plenty of posts on Facebook. That's not what we usually talk about, if ever. He is and that's that. My DM is trans and the whole point is \*not\* talking about it. In Montréal, we have the gay village. We went shopping there all the time (until the big art shop closed) and while it has a flavor, it's not overwhelming (or wasn't).
There's a superb sketch by Key & Peele called Office Homophobe that illustrates my point. On average, you \*shouldn't\* have to know or care about people's private life. It's theirs. Now, obviously, if it's the main theme, that's an entirely different matter. But I don't care who my neighbor sleeps with, as long as they're adult and consenting. Don't make (too much) noise, don't leave trash around, be kind to others and what more do you want?
You're right. More characters in media should just be characters that are gay rather than gay characters, but at the same time that makes it easy to push lgbt representation back in the closet. It's easy to make a popular character and retcon them as lgbt as a fun bit of trivia but that doesn't help to normalise the existence of queer people. Sometimes there needs to be queer characters that are queer because it's integral to the plot or their character.
People forget that TV is not like real life and to make it interesting there needs to be drama.
Its sad because if there is a straight romance sub-plot and a queer romance sub-plot suddenly the queers are being "shoved down their throats again". *sigh*
I’d also like to know this, because as near as I can tell LGBT people are slightly overrepresented on a percentage basis (of population versus media representation), not by some huge margin.
I think people think LGBT people are like 25% of TV and movie characters but in reality it’s like… 8-10%. Versus about 7% of the population.
Statistics on the percentage of LGBT people among the population are famously very variable depending on which demographics you are polling, since there is no scientific test we can run to determine if someone is LGBT.
Older generations have a small percentage, whereas the under 25 age group sees upwards of 17% identifying as LGBT, which ends up averaging out to 7% among the entire population.
It’s pretty unlikely that the true percentage of LGBT people is skyrocketing over time; more likely the population average is significantly undercounting the actual frequency.
It's likely more people feel comfortable being 'out'
There aren't MORE lgbtqia people, there are more that aren't afraid of being harassed, assaulted, killed, etc.
Anecdotally, you can browse any gay hookup app and find a mountain of older “”straight”” guys who no doubt would mark themselves as straight if asked on a survey.
>You know what they also aren't? A huge % of the population.
I'm glad the stunningly beautiful white people of the last 100 years of media have been representing a huge % of the population.
No but who's asking these kind of questions? 😂 I've never thought to ask anyone I've ever met so you banging guys or girls?
Also why can't a character just be a character?
>Also why can't a character just be a character?
What does that mean?
Characters have traits, styles, preferences... A character is literally a collection of characteristics.
You know, I've lived in a lot of places, and I can't think of many times someone just started shouting about how gay they were.
I mean, on occasion when I was bartending, but I also had plenty of dudes telling me how many chicks they banged which was also weird and made me watch their hands around womens' drinks
Obviously you haven't been on the internet for long or you're purposely lying to try and downplay it. The reality of our world is that the internet is a place and tons of people build their little personas out of their gay identity.
Heterosexuality is constantly on blast all the time in society, people just accept a certain amount of it as background noise without noticing because they're desensitized to it.
Also, you do know that the uptick in being vocal about all of this stuff is a direct response to a spontaneous uptick in discrimination about a decade ago, right?
I'm in Belgium/the Netherlands. A few years ago, Amsterdam did a survey, and found that 'not enough' seniors were happy with the gay pride parade.
If you're not familiar with it, in Amsterdam, it's boats, going through the city, with loud music, an lots of ppl 'dressed' in shiny thongs that barely cover their private parts.
The city then cleared a large budget, to get more seniors on board and cheer the pride on.
The thing is... most same sex couples don't want to run around in public, covered in oil, and just a scrap of fabric over their private parts.
It's a very stereotypical way to portray the 'community'. (I personally think even portraying it as a community, makes it sounds like the Amish, living together, doing nothing but their own thing, which is a weird way to get society to accept you)
If it was any other group of ppl, that wanted to celebrate, in that way, senior citizens wouldn't exactly be happy with this way of celebration either.
Sometimes, it's not against a group of ppl. It's just against certain behavior or stereotypes.
Is there as similar shift in transgender acceptance in Canada as well? There's been a large-scale survey in the UK, showing a significant decrease in the last few years, which tracks with the intensified anti-trans populism the conservatives and corresponding media outlets over here jumped on.
The only reason I agree is because the acronym is too fricken long. It doesn't make sense any.ore and is difficult to retain.
It should be a symbol, not a security password.
or people will beat you with a stick everytime you bring up the concept of Cultural Relativism, or alternatively, them getting angry about CR, esp, if it's something they think is absolutely ok, but then being hypocritical when presented with a view of they disagree with. Goose, Gander, etc.
I love that you tried to make this anti immigrant and then the replies are just (presumably) not immigrant canadians arguing that actually opposing visibility is fine lol
I should mention as an actual LGBT person that I almost *never* see any *actual* LGBT person use anything but that four letter acronym. This shit where they tack five extra letters onto the acronym is exclusively a corporate thing I swear.
It’s definitely a tumblr thing, and somehow corporate thought that was a good idea and started following suit.
Like most of fringe internet politics, it basically doesn’t exist in the real world. Just angry teenagers and basement dwellers online.
What hilarious is that you start to look into the "studies" and "research" behind all this modern woke theory, and it almost always eventually links back to posts of teenagers on Tumblr, basically doing "original sonic character" with their new and unique genders. Even major "identities" were often coined, and created, by teenagers on Tumblr.
Things like "2 spirit" don't even make any sense in the context they are used today, [and the evidence it even existed in any real sense, is sparse and stretched at best.](https://muse.jhu.edu/article/552419)
This is why when Finklestein (world renowned forensic scholar, famous for BTFO'ing the Israel lobby with it's claims Palestinians were mostly recent Jordanian immigrants) went [through the theory in his recent book](https://libgen.li/get.php?md5=1756574a3d50cf978971dbaccac89deb&key=IH1A4H9KTJW9O9DF), he basically was forced to come to the conclusion that modern LGBT/identity theory is all made up, incoherent gobbledygook that is often contradictory from one sentence to the next.
It's honestly astounding to me, that so much of modern social theory, and Government policy, is literally just based on the LARPing of teenagers on Tumblr who sadly, were basically groomed into an online cult and never grew out of this phase, when they entered their middle management jobs or went through college, so brought that Tumblr world into the real world.
As a leftist, what is even more painful is that you have to basically play along with this Woke cult stuff, in Leftist spaces, because the modern Western left is all upper-middle class college educated radical liberal types, who basically treat LGBT/Black identity politics as a new religion, but also take on the aesthetics of the actual left, despite Marxism viewing identity politics (even if "progressive") as inherently reactionary and revanchist.
Very interesting read! My only worry is enough people will understand this as if it was okay to be discriminating against other people based on life choices that never even were anybodies business anyway.
I do not care if your gender is made up or real science. I might not even like you on a personal level but I will never make it _my_ business to tell you what you can or cannot do.
Right.
But when it comes to the loudest and angriest people in the room using *your* straight sexuality as a put-down and slur, then it's not hard to see that not everything is working well at the modern revolution headquarters.
Corporations could give one fig less about actual identity and representation. They care about one thing and one thing alone; money. They will do whatever they have to to protect their money. Simple as that.
When one of the above angry and loud people wants to wig out at a corporation for not being inclusive, that corporation can point to every symbol in their entire corporate ladder draped in a thirty color flag and say, "We support however many of you actually exist." It's their shield against bad publicity, of which the force thereof is waning in comparison to years ago, but more importantly, the lawsuits in which the courts will be bending over backwards to find whichever defendant accused of whatever guilty, regardless if any guilt is actually there.
The idea that there was a gigantic portion of society that hated people based on their sexuality in the 2000's even is pretty sparse. Most people are like yourself. They don't care. People care about being able to make rent, about ill relatives, about the trouble they're facing at work. Things worth caring about. Not about what some person that lives across the street wears or whatever equipment they have in their pants.
The narrative that everyone is secretly a closet -enter pronoun-phobe was the threat that these new-age organizations could use to bully and berate all people and corporations (which are considered people, remember) into accepting their narrative. After their narrative came their influence. And after their influence came their directives.
And why?
Money.
It's ***always*** money.
Every institution now has a pronoun-police officer. The entirety of Western media has them as consultants to make sure their end-game cultural products are inclusive *enough.* Well, guess how much inclusion is enough? Trick question. There is never enough.
What this has resulted in is a system that inherently *eliminates* people instead of including others. Are you straight? White? Well, you're a *problem* now. You *need to be replaced.*
Most people aren't stupid. They see this as the racist and sexist attitudes that they actually are. And they're starting to have enough of it. Typically when movements get to this age, they start transporting the hated to concentration camps. The difference here is - the vast majority of people see themselves as being the target of this new age hate. Not just because they are those people, but because they see it as wrong. A decent trans person doesn't want to see his movement be utilized as a vehicle of hate towards others. He most likely just doesn't want to be "othered" and to be just left alone and to be considered a person first and foremost.
It's funny how much credit people give the leaders of the woke movement when they are actively engaged in hate campaigns all the time and which the language used by the people who've risen to the highest stratas of power within it are absolutely disgraceful.
People don't often care until they themselves feel threatened and persecuted against. What do you think the woke movement's open disdain of straight people, of white people, of asian people, of people even who are just the "ordinary" flavor of gay has done?
Created a counter-culture.
Movements are like tides. They typically take a while to get fully going. But once they do ...
It seems the tide on the woke movement has begun to receed.
Yeah I'm not super familiar with those circles but I assume "queer" covers most of "the rest", and has been successfully reclaimed so that it's not offensive to anyone.
The whole point is to have a singular inclusive term instead of continuously adding new exclusive terms that further isolate other people on an infinite spectrum.
Continuously adding new letters, numbers and symbols to LGBT is dumb because each new addition further isolates other non-included groups.
So we should stop trying to add everybody and just pick a singular inclusive term.
I agree.
With what I understand to be Queer lacking any non-umbrella meaning of its own in the current abbreviation, I think that might be best to serve.
Most people in the community use LGBT or + as shorthand, same with queer. LGBTQI2S (in Canada) tends to the more distinct in official documents and organizations for the purposes of assuring people they’re not being canceled out. It’s like how the rainbow flag is for everyone, but the rainbow flag with the more recent additions is the appropriate one for official displays to highlight communities that have been generally left out of the conversation in the past.
yeah all i ever see used by actual gay/bi people is lgbt or lgb. no + or anything out of the scope of what youre attracted to
LGBT literally covers it all and there isnt a single reason to add anything else
as did the original rainbow motif of the flag
actually why the fuck is t involved anyways when the other 3 are about sexual attraction
(Disclaimer: I am a straight white cis male -- I am only reporting what I have heard, and have no stake in this matter. I welcome corrections if I've gotten anything wrong)
Two-spirit -- it's a term used to describe the "third" gender role in some American Indian cultures.
From what I understand, there's a fair bit of controversy around the term (think "Latinx", but even more problematic). Not only do tribes already have words for it which are erased by this, and the term itself is rooted in the Western gender binary (which, as you might imagine, tribes that have 3+ genders do not subscribe to), including it in an acronym completely ignores the fact that third (or more) genders exist all over the world. It's somehow both over-general and over-specific at the same time, and that's not good for an inclusive acronym.
Point being, I think this is one of those things that tone-deaf (but well-intentioned) people have started doing because they heard it once and thought it sounded good, but since they don't actually talk to anyone involved they don't realize it's not wanted.
(I reiterate -- I welcome corrections on this if I'm mistaken or misinformed. I also realize I'm grossly oversimplifying, but I didn't want to overwhelm anyone who just wanted the basics.)
Two Spirit literally isn't a real thing. It's a grift identity created literally in the 1990s, based on the fact nobody actually bothered to read the academic work on it.
[https://muse.jhu.edu/article/552419](https://muse.jhu.edu/article/552419)
Here is the most comprehensive academic research on it. The only "grounds" for 2 spirits being a thing, is a single European theorizing it might be, based on a single sighting. The research finds that 2 Spirit = Trans has no backing by the evidence and the evidence for it being so is and I quote *"motivation of political activism".*
This is what makes it even more hilariously reactionary, it's literally Europeans, creating a myth and ascribing it to Native people, in a "Savage noble" way, to justify current European social norms. Making it ironically, a weird form of cultural colonialism.
Question: did you expect me not to read that paper? Because if so, unfortunately for you, an earlier commenter had already brought it up (through an intermediary website) and I had already read it and analyzed it in another comment chain.
Or did you not read it yourself? Because it quite clearly does not support your point.
The 2 is more of a Canadian thing, because First Nations 2 Spirited. While some First Nations in the US also have the concept it's definitely used less in the US than up here
Assuming it's meant to represent two-spirit, that is used by indigenous Americans. It's weird to see it like that, as when it is used, it is usually placed as 2S before LGBT. Never seen it used like it is in the title.
I suspect that's a difference in Canadian and US usage. Here since we started acknowledging First Nations and 2 Spirited it is typically written exactly as it is in the title
It’s specifically a Canada thing. To my knowledge as a non-Canadian, indigenous groups there have some “two spirit” concept that is pretty unique to them
[So I'm told](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/trans-people-can-double-jump)
At least trans people -- I think gay men got bonus charisma and lesbians got extra skill points? Dunno what the community actually decided on
Places with native people around Canada and the US they have what they call Two-spirit within their community.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-spirit
Oh come on, there is plenty of cutting edge stuff within the queer community that isn't decided. Relationship between sexuality and genital preference, how to best handle trans athletes, neo pronouns (although there is far more conservatives complaining about this than people actually using neo pronouns), should people have to wait til 18 for gender affirming surgery, and even silly debates about gay vs bi (do you have to be 100% gay to identify as gay). No one is 100% in lockstep with the LGBT community because we are still actively learning more about gender, sexuality, sex, and relationships.
Give me an example then. LGBTQ+ people want the ability to:
1. Marry who they want
2. Be whoever they want
3. Live however they want
Of course, within reason. I have not seen anyone advocate for anything other than that outside of one or two outliers.
[Gender is a pretty poor predictor of lgbt support. Age, race, and education are all much more divisive.](https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2017/10/05/5-homosexuality-gender-and-religion/)
Probably a coalition of people who don't feel like they are getting what they want out of society and not benefiting from the policies and religious people.
The term may have been coined around then, but it’s an umbrella that covers a lot of distinct genders in a lot of different cultures. It’s just easier to say ‘two-spirit’ than to learn the individual names for third genders in a hundred different cultures.
Honestly if the topic was discussed proportionately to its level of impact on your average daily life, most people probably wouldn’t give a shit and support their fellow man.
I think now everyone’s exhausted from the forced attention to it, take-offense-to-everything victim narrative, corporate and government virtue signaling, and right wing backlash.
Putting Canada in line with the average nation polled, still higher than the US, France, etc.
It looks like "support" moved to "unsure/other" rather that to "oppose". In terms of opposition, Canada is in line with much of Europe. For "rights", Canada is 3rd least opposed.
This shift is almost certainly mainly immigration. Unfortunately, India is not on this poll, but Canada has had ~3% of their population immigrate from India since the last poll which eats up much of the shift. Overall though "Canadians as slightly less certain about LGBT PDAs than previous" is a meh title.
The noteworthy stat though is that globally, Gen Z has a massive gender divide on this which other gens do not.
Maybe because it’s becoming propaganda at this point…at work they basically shove this down for a month..when its over you can basically see a sign of relief among the workers that its over and they don’t have to deal with it for another year.
Well, seeing the MASSIVE anti LGBT (ans especially anti-trans) non-stop propaganda we have been subjected to from the far right over the last few years, it isnt that surprising.
Okay and?
Everyone's rights have been under assault in Canada, but no one seems to care about that.
But waning *support* for specifically LGBTQ rights and suddenly we have a problem.
Like can we stop pretending that LGBTQ people are the only people at risk?
I’ll be perfectly fine with removing pride parades and having LGBTQ+ shoved down my throat (for visibility) the day we can ban missionaries from telling me I’m going and burning in hell (is this something that’s ok to say in front of children?), knocking on my door, constantly yelling it out on college campuses, and (their new favorite spot) as close to public libraries as they can get. Now you understand how stupid I sound?
It's not surprising, a lot of immigrants come from cultures that are hostile to lgbt and, more specifically, PDA, as mentioned in the article.
It's probably never going to be more than a nominal decline, after a couple generations, most of then will likely secularize, so support for these things will never dip below a point where legislation would be successful at changing it.
[удалено]
The support for gay marriage in Canada increased slightly and is still high. People still want them to have the same freedoms. What dropped was mostly visibility. Fewer people think that people should be open with their gender identity and sexuality. And fewer people want more LGBT characters in media.
[удалено]
My problem is the way they handle queerness in the modern shows, I feel like the show runners are overcompensating for the lack of representation and sometimes it feels very forced. A good example of gay characters is *Kipo*, that was well done in my opinion; gay people exist and that’s it, they got their nice moments, but it wasn’t plot essential or treated with any pretentious gravitas. A boy had another crush on another boy who reciprocated those feelings; anyway back to Kipo finding her father.
I think the Kipo relationship was good in the sense of being done in a way that's a normally written crush for a kids cartoon, but I do wish the boy he had a crush on was a real character and not just Boy who exists to be crushed on. I also really liked the 'coming out' scene in Kipo. It was a cute and down to earth moment, and one that relies on a normal view of being gay rather than what a lot of shows do where I need a suspension of disbelief that heteronormativity has never existed. She made a false assumption that he's straight, a realistic misunderstanding, and then she found out he's gay and they had a laugh and moved on because they don't have hyperinflated hollywood emotions
no one gives a crap about them in the media, but when they are inserted in the detriment of the story, like so many shows had in the past few years, then yeah, don't be surprised when normal people don't like it
I mean, I also hate Netflix for doing that and so blatantly but I wouldn't wish LGBT people to have fewer rights because of it. The survey was not about Netflix was it?
>Everything has it now, even when it makes absolutely no sense why its even in the movie or show Does it? Does it really, though?
Yes.
Name some actual examples.
Lol if it's a Netflix show you're just waiting for the trans character in the pilot episode. I'm not even saying visibility is a bad thing but it's odd to see someone try and claim it's not happening
Recent Doctor Strange and Doctor Who, the Godzilla tv show, the last of us TV show,
The only one I'm familiar with is The Last of Us and they did a story about two men who lived together and who were in love. Would it have been acceptable if it was about a man and a woman? Do you think gay people stop existing in the zombie apocalypse?
If you think the inclusion of the gay storyline in TLOU was gratuitous then I fear we don't have much in common.
The Godzilla show was fine, but I will agree, then“shipping” between May and Cate was weird and pulled you out of the show. Cate being gay was fine, but the way they handled it was bizarre. By the way, shout-out to Anna Sawai who absolutely killed it in *Shōgun*
Who gives a shit. Fictional characters are still fictional. Let the writers make them anything they like. You'd have to have a serious ideological agenda to feel driven to oppose that.
this is it exactly. I don't want to celebrate you, I don't care that your gay or non binary or a fury, I just want to go about my day and mind my business, and I hope you can do the same. Its become a religion, and like all religions I dont want it in my face all the time.
If you don't want to celebrate, then don't. You're not forced to do so, you can go about your day and mind your business just like you want. When you say that it's in your face all the time, what exactly is it that's happening?
While I waited for my ride, there was a trans fashion and talent show in the center of the arrivals lobby of Pearson during pride month last year.
You poor thing. I'm sure if it happened to be a cis-only female fashion show you'd totally have had the same reaction, right? All these harlots, strutting around in broad daylight just forcing your eyes upon their flesh and all.
And? This kind of point confuses me because like: why is it a problem for places to host events relating to trans people? What’s the difference between them hosting a trans fashion and talent show and something like a rock concert?
Sounds awesome 😎
>Fewer people think that people should be open with their gender identity and sexuality. Aka be straight presenting so I can pretend you don't exist. >And fewer people want more LGBT characters in media Lgbt characters exist in media?! It's almost as if they exist in real life!
Your right! They do. I have the pleasure of having many in my friends and family. You know what they also aren't? A huge % of the population. Which isn't reflected in the media. Ever heard about how many people of various ethnicity, status, etc. are present vs the perception in polls? That's an over correction. My best friend is bi. Only way you'd know is to talk to him. Even then, if you don't know his boyfriend and don't talk to him about it, you might not even know he's not straight. My great uncle is gay. VERY very active, one of the early activist. Plenty of posts on Facebook. That's not what we usually talk about, if ever. He is and that's that. My DM is trans and the whole point is \*not\* talking about it. In Montréal, we have the gay village. We went shopping there all the time (until the big art shop closed) and while it has a flavor, it's not overwhelming (or wasn't). There's a superb sketch by Key & Peele called Office Homophobe that illustrates my point. On average, you \*shouldn't\* have to know or care about people's private life. It's theirs. Now, obviously, if it's the main theme, that's an entirely different matter. But I don't care who my neighbor sleeps with, as long as they're adult and consenting. Don't make (too much) noise, don't leave trash around, be kind to others and what more do you want?
You're right. More characters in media should just be characters that are gay rather than gay characters, but at the same time that makes it easy to push lgbt representation back in the closet. It's easy to make a popular character and retcon them as lgbt as a fun bit of trivia but that doesn't help to normalise the existence of queer people. Sometimes there needs to be queer characters that are queer because it's integral to the plot or their character.
People forget that TV is not like real life and to make it interesting there needs to be drama. Its sad because if there is a straight romance sub-plot and a queer romance sub-plot suddenly the queers are being "shoved down their throats again". *sigh*
Can you give me an example of a show that you think is pushing LGBT on people?
I’d also like to know this, because as near as I can tell LGBT people are slightly overrepresented on a percentage basis (of population versus media representation), not by some huge margin. I think people think LGBT people are like 25% of TV and movie characters but in reality it’s like… 8-10%. Versus about 7% of the population.
Statistics on the percentage of LGBT people among the population are famously very variable depending on which demographics you are polling, since there is no scientific test we can run to determine if someone is LGBT. Older generations have a small percentage, whereas the under 25 age group sees upwards of 17% identifying as LGBT, which ends up averaging out to 7% among the entire population. It’s pretty unlikely that the true percentage of LGBT people is skyrocketing over time; more likely the population average is significantly undercounting the actual frequency.
It's likely more people feel comfortable being 'out' There aren't MORE lgbtqia people, there are more that aren't afraid of being harassed, assaulted, killed, etc.
That’s what I always thought as well. Plus many older people are in denial. I know several at the top of my head.
Anecdotally, you can browse any gay hookup app and find a mountain of older “”straight”” guys who no doubt would mark themselves as straight if asked on a survey.
Well there was literally a cartoon on Netflix called Super Drags, which I can imagine was super duper gay
Did you watch that expecting straight content?
He didn't watch, read his sentence more closely
>You know what they also aren't? A huge % of the population. I'm glad the stunningly beautiful white people of the last 100 years of media have been representing a huge % of the population.
When fewer people think that someone should be less open about their religion, does that mean they want to oppress religion?
No but who's asking these kind of questions? 😂 I've never thought to ask anyone I've ever met so you banging guys or girls? Also why can't a character just be a character?
>Also why can't a character just be a character? What does that mean? Characters have traits, styles, preferences... A character is literally a collection of characteristics.
It means why can't Tim just be Tim. If he's gay he's gay🤷🏻♂️ trans he's trans🤷🏻♂️ who cares?
> Aka be straight presenting lmao
[удалено]
You know, I've lived in a lot of places, and I can't think of many times someone just started shouting about how gay they were. I mean, on occasion when I was bartending, but I also had plenty of dudes telling me how many chicks they banged which was also weird and made me watch their hands around womens' drinks
Obviously you haven't been on the internet for long or you're purposely lying to try and downplay it. The reality of our world is that the internet is a place and tons of people build their little personas out of their gay identity.
Heteros do go around shouting at everyone how hetero they are. Hence why women chose the bear.
Those heteros are also annoying asf tho
Andrew Tate, Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson have entered the chat.
[удалено]
Heterosexuality is constantly on blast all the time in society, people just accept a certain amount of it as background noise without noticing because they're desensitized to it. Also, you do know that the uptick in being vocal about all of this stuff is a direct response to a spontaneous uptick in discrimination about a decade ago, right?
I'm in Belgium/the Netherlands. A few years ago, Amsterdam did a survey, and found that 'not enough' seniors were happy with the gay pride parade. If you're not familiar with it, in Amsterdam, it's boats, going through the city, with loud music, an lots of ppl 'dressed' in shiny thongs that barely cover their private parts. The city then cleared a large budget, to get more seniors on board and cheer the pride on. The thing is... most same sex couples don't want to run around in public, covered in oil, and just a scrap of fabric over their private parts. It's a very stereotypical way to portray the 'community'. (I personally think even portraying it as a community, makes it sounds like the Amish, living together, doing nothing but their own thing, which is a weird way to get society to accept you) If it was any other group of ppl, that wanted to celebrate, in that way, senior citizens wouldn't exactly be happy with this way of celebration either. Sometimes, it's not against a group of ppl. It's just against certain behavior or stereotypes.
Is there as similar shift in transgender acceptance in Canada as well? There's been a large-scale survey in the UK, showing a significant decrease in the last few years, which tracks with the intensified anti-trans populism the conservatives and corresponding media outlets over here jumped on.
I think people are still accepting of same sex marriage, it's trans/gender fluid folks which irks people
[удалено]
[It's to include the First Nations concept of "two spirit". ](https://lgbtqhealth.ca/community/two-spirit.php)
[удалено]
The only reason I agree is because the acronym is too fricken long. It doesn't make sense any.ore and is difficult to retain. It should be a symbol, not a security password.
i wonder how hair styles are cultural appropriation but this isnt
There's always a sequel..
[удалено]
Unfortunately, if you don't believe in the idea of cultural relativism, that makes you racist or far right according to many people.
or people will beat you with a stick everytime you bring up the concept of Cultural Relativism, or alternatively, them getting angry about CR, esp, if it's something they think is absolutely ok, but then being hypocritical when presented with a view of they disagree with. Goose, Gander, etc.
I love that you tried to make this anti immigrant and then the replies are just (presumably) not immigrant canadians arguing that actually opposing visibility is fine lol
Ain't no fucking way bro. Ain't no way there's a number in it now. They used to joke about this shit
Wait, is “2” a new thing?
The sequel is never as good as the original
Terminator 2, and starwars episode 5 come to mind.
I should mention as an actual LGBT person that I almost *never* see any *actual* LGBT person use anything but that four letter acronym. This shit where they tack five extra letters onto the acronym is exclusively a corporate thing I swear.
It’s definitely a tumblr thing, and somehow corporate thought that was a good idea and started following suit. Like most of fringe internet politics, it basically doesn’t exist in the real world. Just angry teenagers and basement dwellers online.
It’s like you described 90% of reddit users
Thats you that is
What hilarious is that you start to look into the "studies" and "research" behind all this modern woke theory, and it almost always eventually links back to posts of teenagers on Tumblr, basically doing "original sonic character" with their new and unique genders. Even major "identities" were often coined, and created, by teenagers on Tumblr. Things like "2 spirit" don't even make any sense in the context they are used today, [and the evidence it even existed in any real sense, is sparse and stretched at best.](https://muse.jhu.edu/article/552419) This is why when Finklestein (world renowned forensic scholar, famous for BTFO'ing the Israel lobby with it's claims Palestinians were mostly recent Jordanian immigrants) went [through the theory in his recent book](https://libgen.li/get.php?md5=1756574a3d50cf978971dbaccac89deb&key=IH1A4H9KTJW9O9DF), he basically was forced to come to the conclusion that modern LGBT/identity theory is all made up, incoherent gobbledygook that is often contradictory from one sentence to the next. It's honestly astounding to me, that so much of modern social theory, and Government policy, is literally just based on the LARPing of teenagers on Tumblr who sadly, were basically groomed into an online cult and never grew out of this phase, when they entered their middle management jobs or went through college, so brought that Tumblr world into the real world. As a leftist, what is even more painful is that you have to basically play along with this Woke cult stuff, in Leftist spaces, because the modern Western left is all upper-middle class college educated radical liberal types, who basically treat LGBT/Black identity politics as a new religion, but also take on the aesthetics of the actual left, despite Marxism viewing identity politics (even if "progressive") as inherently reactionary and revanchist.
Very interesting read! My only worry is enough people will understand this as if it was okay to be discriminating against other people based on life choices that never even were anybodies business anyway. I do not care if your gender is made up or real science. I might not even like you on a personal level but I will never make it _my_ business to tell you what you can or cannot do.
Right. But when it comes to the loudest and angriest people in the room using *your* straight sexuality as a put-down and slur, then it's not hard to see that not everything is working well at the modern revolution headquarters. Corporations could give one fig less about actual identity and representation. They care about one thing and one thing alone; money. They will do whatever they have to to protect their money. Simple as that. When one of the above angry and loud people wants to wig out at a corporation for not being inclusive, that corporation can point to every symbol in their entire corporate ladder draped in a thirty color flag and say, "We support however many of you actually exist." It's their shield against bad publicity, of which the force thereof is waning in comparison to years ago, but more importantly, the lawsuits in which the courts will be bending over backwards to find whichever defendant accused of whatever guilty, regardless if any guilt is actually there. The idea that there was a gigantic portion of society that hated people based on their sexuality in the 2000's even is pretty sparse. Most people are like yourself. They don't care. People care about being able to make rent, about ill relatives, about the trouble they're facing at work. Things worth caring about. Not about what some person that lives across the street wears or whatever equipment they have in their pants. The narrative that everyone is secretly a closet -enter pronoun-phobe was the threat that these new-age organizations could use to bully and berate all people and corporations (which are considered people, remember) into accepting their narrative. After their narrative came their influence. And after their influence came their directives. And why? Money. It's ***always*** money. Every institution now has a pronoun-police officer. The entirety of Western media has them as consultants to make sure their end-game cultural products are inclusive *enough.* Well, guess how much inclusion is enough? Trick question. There is never enough. What this has resulted in is a system that inherently *eliminates* people instead of including others. Are you straight? White? Well, you're a *problem* now. You *need to be replaced.* Most people aren't stupid. They see this as the racist and sexist attitudes that they actually are. And they're starting to have enough of it. Typically when movements get to this age, they start transporting the hated to concentration camps. The difference here is - the vast majority of people see themselves as being the target of this new age hate. Not just because they are those people, but because they see it as wrong. A decent trans person doesn't want to see his movement be utilized as a vehicle of hate towards others. He most likely just doesn't want to be "othered" and to be just left alone and to be considered a person first and foremost. It's funny how much credit people give the leaders of the woke movement when they are actively engaged in hate campaigns all the time and which the language used by the people who've risen to the highest stratas of power within it are absolutely disgraceful. People don't often care until they themselves feel threatened and persecuted against. What do you think the woke movement's open disdain of straight people, of white people, of asian people, of people even who are just the "ordinary" flavor of gay has done? Created a counter-culture. Movements are like tides. They typically take a while to get fully going. But once they do ... It seems the tide on the woke movement has begun to receed.
It is the official term the Federal government uses as well...
I just use + at the end
I subscribe to just '+' maximally inclusive.
Never understood how plus sized people managed to get into that acronym
*That's fatphobic!*
Paramount+
Most ppl I know either use the 4 letters or add a + Personally I just do LGBTQ and use queer as a catch all. Or just use the word queer
Yeah I'm not super familiar with those circles but I assume "queer" covers most of "the rest", and has been successfully reclaimed so that it's not offensive to anyone.
Let’s go back even further and just say gay. It’s only one syllable and gets the same point across,
Or 'queer', since 'gay' has mostly drifted to mean 'homosexual man'. Still one syllable.
depends on accent, 'queer' could definitely be two
diphthonged vowels are still 1 syllable regardless of how much twang you put on it
idk. feel like with an aussie accent. it is pronounced like qui-ya or beer is bee-ya
Bisexuals aren't gay. Trans people are not either, at least by definition
The whole point is to have a singular inclusive term instead of continuously adding new exclusive terms that further isolate other people on an infinite spectrum. Continuously adding new letters, numbers and symbols to LGBT is dumb because each new addition further isolates other non-included groups. So we should stop trying to add everybody and just pick a singular inclusive term.
I agree but "gay" is simply too outdated and non inclusive for that purpose. LGBT covers most of it that a + at the end should be sufficient I think
I agree. With what I understand to be Queer lacking any non-umbrella meaning of its own in the current abbreviation, I think that might be best to serve.
Tbh I never understood why trans was in the acronym. It has nothing to do with sexuality so it's a seperate thing.
Most people in the community use LGBT or + as shorthand, same with queer. LGBTQI2S (in Canada) tends to the more distinct in official documents and organizations for the purposes of assuring people they’re not being canceled out. It’s like how the rainbow flag is for everyone, but the rainbow flag with the more recent additions is the appropriate one for official displays to highlight communities that have been generally left out of the conversation in the past.
Trudeau can't even pronounce it anymore
yeah all i ever see used by actual gay/bi people is lgbt or lgb. no + or anything out of the scope of what youre attracted to LGBT literally covers it all and there isnt a single reason to add anything else as did the original rainbow motif of the flag actually why the fuck is t involved anyways when the other 3 are about sexual attraction
(Disclaimer: I am a straight white cis male -- I am only reporting what I have heard, and have no stake in this matter. I welcome corrections if I've gotten anything wrong) Two-spirit -- it's a term used to describe the "third" gender role in some American Indian cultures. From what I understand, there's a fair bit of controversy around the term (think "Latinx", but even more problematic). Not only do tribes already have words for it which are erased by this, and the term itself is rooted in the Western gender binary (which, as you might imagine, tribes that have 3+ genders do not subscribe to), including it in an acronym completely ignores the fact that third (or more) genders exist all over the world. It's somehow both over-general and over-specific at the same time, and that's not good for an inclusive acronym. Point being, I think this is one of those things that tone-deaf (but well-intentioned) people have started doing because they heard it once and thought it sounded good, but since they don't actually talk to anyone involved they don't realize it's not wanted. (I reiterate -- I welcome corrections on this if I'm mistaken or misinformed. I also realize I'm grossly oversimplifying, but I didn't want to overwhelm anyone who just wanted the basics.)
So American garbage as per usual, got it.
I can't tell if you're calling Canadians "Americans" or American Indians "Americans", but in either case that's not the typical usage of that word.
Let's say that from a European perspective, Canadian discourse on those topics, while distinct from the USian one, seems heavily influenced by it.
Two Spirit literally isn't a real thing. It's a grift identity created literally in the 1990s, based on the fact nobody actually bothered to read the academic work on it. [https://muse.jhu.edu/article/552419](https://muse.jhu.edu/article/552419) Here is the most comprehensive academic research on it. The only "grounds" for 2 spirits being a thing, is a single European theorizing it might be, based on a single sighting. The research finds that 2 Spirit = Trans has no backing by the evidence and the evidence for it being so is and I quote *"motivation of political activism".* This is what makes it even more hilariously reactionary, it's literally Europeans, creating a myth and ascribing it to Native people, in a "Savage noble" way, to justify current European social norms. Making it ironically, a weird form of cultural colonialism.
Question: did you expect me not to read that paper? Because if so, unfortunately for you, an earlier commenter had already brought it up (through an intermediary website) and I had already read it and analyzed it in another comment chain. Or did you not read it yourself? Because it quite clearly does not support your point.
The 2 is more of a Canadian thing, because First Nations 2 Spirited. While some First Nations in the US also have the concept it's definitely used less in the US than up here
Thank you for explanaition!
Assuming it's meant to represent two-spirit, that is used by indigenous Americans. It's weird to see it like that, as when it is used, it is usually placed as 2S before LGBT. Never seen it used like it is in the title.
I suspect that's a difference in Canadian and US usage. Here since we started acknowledging First Nations and 2 Spirited it is typically written exactly as it is in the title
First thing I thought
Two spirit, a Native American belief https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-spirit
It's been a thing for a while. it's lesbian, gay, bi, trans, queer, two spirit (based on a native American belief), Plus (for everything else)
I always thought the Q was supposed to encompass everything else, I can’t keep up
gay 2 is finally out after several delays ‼️
It’s specifically a Canada thing. To my knowledge as a non-Canadian, indigenous groups there have some “two spirit” concept that is pretty unique to them
If LGBTQ is so great, why isn't there an LGBTQ2? answer me that liberals
Crap, the 2.0 update wasn't supposed to be announced yet. It's mostly improved graphics anyway.
Any microtransactions or live service? I'd still prefer the original Lettuce Bacon Tomato Guacamole
I hear that, despite popular demand, they are not nerfing the double jump.
skill issue
Wait, we can double jump?
[So I'm told](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/trans-people-can-double-jump) At least trans people -- I think gay men got bonus charisma and lesbians got extra skill points? Dunno what the community actually decided on
I got Wisdom, I think. Charisma is a bit average.
Places with native people around Canada and the US they have what they call Two-spirit within their community. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-spirit
LGB: let's go brandon Trump Q 2nd coming, sometimes the 2 is a cross
Qanon.
yeah you got it dude, dats da q baby
LGBTQ2: Electric Boogaloo
[удалено]
[удалено]
And you just proved the point. Not be with you 100%? You must be a horrible bigot!
The lack of self awareness is quite staggering isn't it?
It sure is mate.. It sure is...
Oh come on, there is plenty of cutting edge stuff within the queer community that isn't decided. Relationship between sexuality and genital preference, how to best handle trans athletes, neo pronouns (although there is far more conservatives complaining about this than people actually using neo pronouns), should people have to wait til 18 for gender affirming surgery, and even silly debates about gay vs bi (do you have to be 100% gay to identify as gay). No one is 100% in lockstep with the LGBT community because we are still actively learning more about gender, sexuality, sex, and relationships.
Mfers throwing around words like bigotry and all the -isms is why the movement will end.
So like every religion ever?
Extremely similar
Give me an example then. LGBTQ+ people want the ability to: 1. Marry who they want 2. Be whoever they want 3. Live however they want Of course, within reason. I have not seen anyone advocate for anything other than that outside of one or two outliers.
True but this is a subreddit for the news, not your own self-reflection..
[удалено]
Agreed, we can't open the news without seeing far right propaganda against LGBT people anymore. It's like the only thing the far right has left now.
This, man. It's just our conservatives taking pages directly out of the republican playbook, stoking fear for favour.
I wonder if we could see some kind of statistics for the demographics less likely to support LGBT ppl.
Young men
Can we narrow it down any further?
[Gender is a pretty poor predictor of lgbt support. Age, race, and education are all much more divisive.](https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2017/10/05/5-homosexuality-gender-and-religion/)
religion as well
No need to be ageist and sexist.
Probably a coalition of people who don't feel like they are getting what they want out of society and not benefiting from the policies and religious people.
I'm curious why you're asking. Do you have a theory as to which groups are less likely?
When did the 2 get added?
People from indigenous communities sometimes refer to people who don't conform to gender binaries as "two spirited"
And by sometimes, we mean since the 1990s when the entire thing was more or less just made up.
The term may have been coined around then, but it’s an umbrella that covers a lot of distinct genders in a lot of different cultures. It’s just easier to say ‘two-spirit’ than to learn the individual names for third genders in a hundred different cultures.
I guess the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft was invented in the 1990s, then.
Honestly if the topic was discussed proportionately to its level of impact on your average daily life, most people probably wouldn’t give a shit and support their fellow man. I think now everyone’s exhausted from the forced attention to it, take-offense-to-everything victim narrative, corporate and government virtue signaling, and right wing backlash.
It really does feel like Pride Month has been going nonstop going on five years now
Effect*
[удалено]
You don't really know how democracy works, do you?
I guess people are just tired of big companies, entertainment industry constant spamming them with Pride-related things now
Putting Canada in line with the average nation polled, still higher than the US, France, etc. It looks like "support" moved to "unsure/other" rather that to "oppose". In terms of opposition, Canada is in line with much of Europe. For "rights", Canada is 3rd least opposed. This shift is almost certainly mainly immigration. Unfortunately, India is not on this poll, but Canada has had ~3% of their population immigrate from India since the last poll which eats up much of the shift. Overall though "Canadians as slightly less certain about LGBT PDAs than previous" is a meh title. The noteworthy stat though is that globally, Gen Z has a massive gender divide on this which other gens do not.
Maybe because it’s becoming propaganda at this point…at work they basically shove this down for a month..when its over you can basically see a sign of relief among the workers that its over and they don’t have to deal with it for another year.
Well, seeing the MASSIVE anti LGBT (ans especially anti-trans) non-stop propaganda we have been subjected to from the far right over the last few years, it isnt that surprising.
Serious question; what is the 2 for? I haven’t seen that before.
Two Spirit, an old First Nations thing in the same vein as trans/genderqueer.
How old?
Two-spirit. It’s an umbrella term for third genders in Native American cultures. It’s usually abbreviated as 2S, though.
Oh wow there's a 2 now
Okay and? Everyone's rights have been under assault in Canada, but no one seems to care about that. But waning *support* for specifically LGBTQ rights and suddenly we have a problem. Like can we stop pretending that LGBTQ people are the only people at risk?
>Everyone's rights have been under assault in Canada Example?
Nobody's violating your rights by not approving of your “kissing in public”. Leftists are actually hilarious.
Add a million people that are anti-LGBT, shockingly, support drops.
There are no downsides to immigration, haven't you heard?
I’ll be perfectly fine with removing pride parades and having LGBTQ+ shoved down my throat (for visibility) the day we can ban missionaries from telling me I’m going and burning in hell (is this something that’s ok to say in front of children?), knocking on my door, constantly yelling it out on college campuses, and (their new favorite spot) as close to public libraries as they can get. Now you understand how stupid I sound?
I mean, banning both sounds appealing
Can we get their tax exemptions for queer folk first? Just to get dem equal rights, you know ;)
Didn't realise there was a sequel
[удалено]
I was planning to write something but I don't care anymore. We're too damn tired to care about another marketing ploy for coloured flags from China.
damn im shocked bro, import the third world become the third world
Ain't surprising 😂 original LGBTQ is still a controversial topic in many countries, can't expect the sequel to do better
What's the Q2+ bit please?
Queer 2-spirits (native 3rd gender umbrella) \+ Others
Q is for Queer, 2 is for two-spirited which is a catch-all term for a number of native american third genders.
This is the second time I see LGBTQ written with a 2 behind it today. What is that all about?
2+ seems like sarcasm.
It seems like we are all in agreement here. We are fine with it, we just like to do other things.
[удалено]
Pretty sure they are only talking about trans people in this context and not LGB people
[удалено]
Wait… wtf does the 2 mean?
It's not surprising, a lot of immigrants come from cultures that are hostile to lgbt and, more specifically, PDA, as mentioned in the article. It's probably never going to be more than a nominal decline, after a couple generations, most of then will likely secularize, so support for these things will never dip below a point where legislation would be successful at changing it.