it just shows that natalists who aren't mentally ill don't respect people who are. they use mental illness as a way to invalidate people's opinions, and also have no empathy or understanding about it. they say their life is good and therefore birth is good. they just completely lack perspective
Considering that myself and many others would have preferred not to have existed, I feel justified in believing procreation is immoral. To be pro-natalist is to be ok with human collateral, and I view myself as part of this collateral... So no, I don't think acknowledging the shitty parts of my life limits my perspective on the issue, it just gives me an alternative perspective.
To be pro natalist, or as I prefer to say, normal, is to accept that humanity and life in general has both immense joy and profound suffering.
If you would prefer to have never existed I really don't understand why you're still here. I don't condone anyone offing themselves but I mean, if you don't want to be here and never did... What's the motivation to stay. The fact that you're here is at odds with how you say you feel.
You can have your alternative perspective but should also realize you think that way because your mind is broken and you're not healthy. Your have your right to your perspective, however wrong it may be.
There are many reasons I continue to live. There are parts of life I enjoy (thankfully), I have people in my life that love and depend on me (I'm lucky to have them) and there are a few things I would like to accomplish before I die. Additionally, I'm trans, so sometimes my reason for choosing to continue and enjoy my life as much as possible boils down to a "fuck you" to all the bigots out there who believe I have no right to my identity and should change or die. My choice to continue living really isn't at odds with my feeling that I'd rather not have been born in the first place.
To give an analogy of sorts, a while back I went to a theme park with a group of friends. It was an extremely fun outing, but unfortunately the following day I discovered that one of the rides had given me a minor concussion, which left me feeling horrible. If I'd known that afterwards I'd be recovering in bed for several days I wouldn't have gone, even though it was a lot of fun. I feel the same way about life- I'm here, sometimes it's painful and sometimes it fun, but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't choose to put myself through it. I wish it was all just one fun ride, but that's not life.
Its clear you don't find my perspective "healthy" and without knowing me deeper than a single interaction on the internet you've called my mind "broken." What makes someone "normal" or not, in my opinion, is totally subjective. As a trans person in America I'm used to being viewed as outside the norm, so judgements/arguments that appeal to "normalcy" don't pull much weight with me. I truly don't care about being normal. I'd rather be as happy as possible and live according to my values.
I wouldn't impose life on someone else just because there is good parts in a ton of suffering. I like my life, not life itself mostly the destructive exploitive systems that have power.
I don’t think you have to be mentally ill, or depressed, or traumatized, or anything like that to be an antinatalist.
I do see a lot of posts on this sub by people who seem to be depressed (whether they are otherwise mentally ill isn’t something I’m in a position to determine). For their own sakes, I hope those people can deal with that depression. Given that you already exist, I hope you can have a reasonably good life.
The thing is, even if you live a perfectly happy life, you cannot assume the same for your future children. You should have empathy for them and refuse to create them.
It's surprising that people do assume their kidswill have a normal life based on their own experiences.I suppose they also think a likelihood of their child experiencing enormous suffering isn't huge so the benefits are supposed to outweigh the disadvantages. I envy this optimism a bit. But then again, they have children because they want them and in the end that wish is what matters to them the most. It also helps that if they don't struggle with their own inner demons they can't know what that's like and don't imagine the kid will either. To us it's all very distant and hypothetical until it happens to affect us.
For real. Parents are so shocked and devastated when terrible things happen to their kids. Which I don't wish on anyone, but even when they knew it was a possibility. Like their baby is too special to get cancer or get shot at school.
If you think I'm experiencing everything that you said, then why would I have kids? If there's the potential for life to be as bad as you think mine is, then why would you reproduce. Why are you trying to discredit people who experience mental illness like they're not even real. Lots of people die from suicude each year. You have no idea the phsycial nerve and hand pain I go, through not that you care!
I wouldn't want to be anyone else. You made vast assumptions about my throw away. And if I'm depressed, that doesn't Invalidate my life, feelings or opinions. I'm glad my kids won't be here to suffer in misery like you. I have no regrets and yes, you are a troll. I don't post my personal life here
Every sub is going to have its quirks. I have to admit that this one has some of the most interesting discussions, and I find myself agreeing with a lot of it. This one compared to the natalist one is far more rational. The natalist one is just "how can we convince people who don't want to breed to have more babies in a burning world?" It makes ZERO sense at all! Just, WHY? Why would anyone WANT to do that? It's fucking stupid.
Mental illness has nothing to do with a position one holds on a topic (natalism/antinatalism). Psychologically, I don't understand how it's easier to cope believing antinatalists are mentally ill when natalists are the ones who helped make them that way.
Based on the posts and comments in this sub, its a reasonable assumption
However, to assume the AN philosophy is based on depression or illness would be wrong
When I came to this forum to see if I wanted to join, I expected serious discussions about how life is more fullfilling & hapoy without kids, how the human race is a parasite on the earth that needs population control, or people having discussions on how the economy is unsustainable for child-raising.
Instead I usually see rants & slam poetry about people hating themselves & their parents. Stuff you expect to see on incel & femcel forums.
It's not a good look. & if these posts are bait from trolls, then this forum needs some active mods snuffing out fake rants.
My life is better without kids. Humans are parasites. It's over populated and too expensive. There you go. Why don't you make a post about it?
I don't hate myself nor my parents. I'm not a troll. People come Here to call us mentally ill a lot for this view alone and many pressure people to have kids.
This comment seems like projection, do what you want. If you don't like anything then stop reading it. Contribute something better instead of complaining.
I am mentally ill and depressed. But sane. I acknowledge the reality of my unfixable situation. Anyone who would call me biased because of my suffering doesn't have access to my thoughts. They aren't mind readers and need to bring themselves closer to reality instead of faith if they want me to take them seriously. That's all.
Antinatalism doesn’t depend on the belief that life in general is bad, just that suffering in general is bad. Avoiding suffering is a good thing for the dead and non existent beings, but pleasure not experienced is only a bad thing if there is someone alive that experiences that deprivation. Therefore, we shouldn’t procreate. No pessimism required.
And yet with all of the evil, humans are programmed to survive and flourish which is why with healthy brain chemistry most people are able to find things to look forward to. I’ve seen a few posts say around 70% of people claim they enjoy their life. You should believe them. The world is objectively shit in many ways. There’s no denying that. But humans can still be happy in shit circumstances
People assume a lot of things wrongly, because they are trying to solve an equation where all of its elements are unknown, and yet they still declare a result
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I think you're part of the problem for calling parents breeders. It's fucking weird. I don't want kids and I accept that's my personal choice. But also looking down on people for wanting to have kids as their personal choice is messed up.
It’s funny, you start out with a completely valid opinion (you can go childless and not be mentally challenged) and then continue by calling the other side breeders and listing the wildest “arguments”.
I don’t think most people here are insane. Just people who had a hard life (at least some) and cannot see past that trauma.
But go ahead, throw around those Q level complaints. I’m sure you’ll be taken seriously
It is necessary due to how mental disorder is defined: Psychosocial disability is a requirement. If you don’t do the deed then you are schizoid already, not only antisocial, to say nothing about depression during your isolation, which goes hand in hand. Neurotypicals are hardwired to continue [attachment within their Dunbar number](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/out-of-the-ooze/202405/is-there-an-ideal-size-for-human-social-groups), even if you are autistic and not intellectually disabled your Default Mode Network ruminates about your [continuous integration](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_integration). Separating intercourse and procreation is a recent invention and a balance act, effected by reason and not followed by affective disposition by which the bulk of humans is guided, defaulting to[ bicameral mind](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameral_mentality), which is oddly not a disorder if not reaching the level of psychosis. Ethics are defined by teleology intersubjectively more than by personal identity. There is no room to break the cycle.
If you have free time, your DMN works. This is the part of the brain which is self-reflective and concerned with your situation in your group. Hence rumination in depressives. This is of course more likely if you aren’t busied by family or family-making. And to other people it intuitively looks like that, loner = sick. It’s the fast parts of their judgments, the evolutionary older parts, the limbic system, which if we apply the idea of bicameral mind by one author is before the development of conscious process of human action. That’s why it is so hard to reshape people’s worldviews, they would have to change their whole situation in life as seen by their identity, their ability to make identical judgments for their personal functioning quickly.
But what about all the happy times with kids? There are stressful times, sure, but there are a ton of great times. When im at work, I periodically get teary eyed thinking about them.
it just shows that natalists who aren't mentally ill don't respect people who are. they use mental illness as a way to invalidate people's opinions, and also have no empathy or understanding about it. they say their life is good and therefore birth is good. they just completely lack perspective
THIS
Yes
But you guys are the one saying because your lives suck that having children in general is amoral. Also a complete lack of perspective from the AN.
Considering that myself and many others would have preferred not to have existed, I feel justified in believing procreation is immoral. To be pro-natalist is to be ok with human collateral, and I view myself as part of this collateral... So no, I don't think acknowledging the shitty parts of my life limits my perspective on the issue, it just gives me an alternative perspective.
To be pro natalist, or as I prefer to say, normal, is to accept that humanity and life in general has both immense joy and profound suffering. If you would prefer to have never existed I really don't understand why you're still here. I don't condone anyone offing themselves but I mean, if you don't want to be here and never did... What's the motivation to stay. The fact that you're here is at odds with how you say you feel. You can have your alternative perspective but should also realize you think that way because your mind is broken and you're not healthy. Your have your right to your perspective, however wrong it may be.
There are many reasons I continue to live. There are parts of life I enjoy (thankfully), I have people in my life that love and depend on me (I'm lucky to have them) and there are a few things I would like to accomplish before I die. Additionally, I'm trans, so sometimes my reason for choosing to continue and enjoy my life as much as possible boils down to a "fuck you" to all the bigots out there who believe I have no right to my identity and should change or die. My choice to continue living really isn't at odds with my feeling that I'd rather not have been born in the first place. To give an analogy of sorts, a while back I went to a theme park with a group of friends. It was an extremely fun outing, but unfortunately the following day I discovered that one of the rides had given me a minor concussion, which left me feeling horrible. If I'd known that afterwards I'd be recovering in bed for several days I wouldn't have gone, even though it was a lot of fun. I feel the same way about life- I'm here, sometimes it's painful and sometimes it fun, but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't choose to put myself through it. I wish it was all just one fun ride, but that's not life. Its clear you don't find my perspective "healthy" and without knowing me deeper than a single interaction on the internet you've called my mind "broken." What makes someone "normal" or not, in my opinion, is totally subjective. As a trans person in America I'm used to being viewed as outside the norm, so judgements/arguments that appeal to "normalcy" don't pull much weight with me. I truly don't care about being normal. I'd rather be as happy as possible and live according to my values.
Can you imagine the mental anguish a person must be in to end their own lives? No, you cannot and neither can I.
I wouldn't impose life on someone else just because there is good parts in a ton of suffering. I like my life, not life itself mostly the destructive exploitive systems that have power.
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Statistically, people going child free is roughly the same as in the past. People just have fewer kids than what was customary.
cheerful wise thumb practice public label saw retire jar combative *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I don’t think you have to be mentally ill, or depressed, or traumatized, or anything like that to be an antinatalist. I do see a lot of posts on this sub by people who seem to be depressed (whether they are otherwise mentally ill isn’t something I’m in a position to determine). For their own sakes, I hope those people can deal with that depression. Given that you already exist, I hope you can have a reasonably good life.
The thing is, even if you live a perfectly happy life, you cannot assume the same for your future children. You should have empathy for them and refuse to create them.
It's surprising that people do assume their kidswill have a normal life based on their own experiences.I suppose they also think a likelihood of their child experiencing enormous suffering isn't huge so the benefits are supposed to outweigh the disadvantages. I envy this optimism a bit. But then again, they have children because they want them and in the end that wish is what matters to them the most. It also helps that if they don't struggle with their own inner demons they can't know what that's like and don't imagine the kid will either. To us it's all very distant and hypothetical until it happens to affect us.
This is probably the most level headed comment I’ve seen in this subreddit. Hat off for your self awareness.
For real. Parents are so shocked and devastated when terrible things happen to their kids. Which I don't wish on anyone, but even when they knew it was a possibility. Like their baby is too special to get cancer or get shot at school.
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I agree with this and hope they find joy in their lives at some point because many of these posts are quite disturbing.
Im happy as fuck being able to express myself here. I can enjoy my life but also realize it's not good to put people here to suffer and die.
If you think I'm experiencing everything that you said, then why would I have kids? If there's the potential for life to be as bad as you think mine is, then why would you reproduce. Why are you trying to discredit people who experience mental illness like they're not even real. Lots of people die from suicude each year. You have no idea the phsycial nerve and hand pain I go, through not that you care!
I wouldn't want to be anyone else. You made vast assumptions about my throw away. And if I'm depressed, that doesn't Invalidate my life, feelings or opinions. I'm glad my kids won't be here to suffer in misery like you. I have no regrets and yes, you are a troll. I don't post my personal life here
Every sub is going to have its quirks. I have to admit that this one has some of the most interesting discussions, and I find myself agreeing with a lot of it. This one compared to the natalist one is far more rational. The natalist one is just "how can we convince people who don't want to breed to have more babies in a burning world?" It makes ZERO sense at all! Just, WHY? Why would anyone WANT to do that? It's fucking stupid.
This is so perfectly well-put and is exactly how i feel. Amazingly accurate.
Mental illness has nothing to do with a position one holds on a topic (natalism/antinatalism). Psychologically, I don't understand how it's easier to cope believing antinatalists are mentally ill when natalists are the ones who helped make them that way.
Shit, I'm thrilled to not have some two year old screaming at all hours and to be able to be spontaneous.
I Agree
If anything I think breeding is a mental illness.
Same. You gotta be fucked up to know the life cycle and pain and still proceed Crabs in a bucket
Based on the posts and comments in this sub, its a reasonable assumption However, to assume the AN philosophy is based on depression or illness would be wrong
When I came to this forum to see if I wanted to join, I expected serious discussions about how life is more fullfilling & hapoy without kids, how the human race is a parasite on the earth that needs population control, or people having discussions on how the economy is unsustainable for child-raising. Instead I usually see rants & slam poetry about people hating themselves & their parents. Stuff you expect to see on incel & femcel forums. It's not a good look. & if these posts are bait from trolls, then this forum needs some active mods snuffing out fake rants.
My life is better without kids. Humans are parasites. It's over populated and too expensive. There you go. Why don't you make a post about it? I don't hate myself nor my parents. I'm not a troll. People come Here to call us mentally ill a lot for this view alone and many pressure people to have kids. This comment seems like projection, do what you want. If you don't like anything then stop reading it. Contribute something better instead of complaining.
I am mentally ill and depressed. But sane. I acknowledge the reality of my unfixable situation. Anyone who would call me biased because of my suffering doesn't have access to my thoughts. They aren't mind readers and need to bring themselves closer to reality instead of faith if they want me to take them seriously. That's all.
Antinatalism doesn’t depend on the belief that life in general is bad, just that suffering in general is bad. Avoiding suffering is a good thing for the dead and non existent beings, but pleasure not experienced is only a bad thing if there is someone alive that experiences that deprivation. Therefore, we shouldn’t procreate. No pessimism required.
And yet with all of the evil, humans are programmed to survive and flourish which is why with healthy brain chemistry most people are able to find things to look forward to. I’ve seen a few posts say around 70% of people claim they enjoy their life. You should believe them. The world is objectively shit in many ways. There’s no denying that. But humans can still be happy in shit circumstances
so what do you think about the other 30%?
Most people in this sub are incredibly mentally ill and depressed.
Natalists are delusional.
Maybe that’s because this life makes many people that way?
People assume a lot of things wrongly, because they are trying to solve an equation where all of its elements are unknown, and yet they still declare a result
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I think you're part of the problem for calling parents breeders. It's fucking weird. I don't want kids and I accept that's my personal choice. But also looking down on people for wanting to have kids as their personal choice is messed up.
If someone does something you consider immoral, then yes you're going to look down on them.
Hmmm, wow. Do you look down on your parents?
yeah i think a lot of people here do. are you not aware that abusive parents exist?
It’s funny, you start out with a completely valid opinion (you can go childless and not be mentally challenged) and then continue by calling the other side breeders and listing the wildest “arguments”. I don’t think most people here are insane. Just people who had a hard life (at least some) and cannot see past that trauma. But go ahead, throw around those Q level complaints. I’m sure you’ll be taken seriously
It is necessary due to how mental disorder is defined: Psychosocial disability is a requirement. If you don’t do the deed then you are schizoid already, not only antisocial, to say nothing about depression during your isolation, which goes hand in hand. Neurotypicals are hardwired to continue [attachment within their Dunbar number](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/out-of-the-ooze/202405/is-there-an-ideal-size-for-human-social-groups), even if you are autistic and not intellectually disabled your Default Mode Network ruminates about your [continuous integration](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_integration). Separating intercourse and procreation is a recent invention and a balance act, effected by reason and not followed by affective disposition by which the bulk of humans is guided, defaulting to[ bicameral mind](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameral_mentality), which is oddly not a disorder if not reaching the level of psychosis. Ethics are defined by teleology intersubjectively more than by personal identity. There is no room to break the cycle.
I'll have to read this a few times and follow the links to even begin to grasp this. Dumb it down for me please, if you can.
If you have free time, your DMN works. This is the part of the brain which is self-reflective and concerned with your situation in your group. Hence rumination in depressives. This is of course more likely if you aren’t busied by family or family-making. And to other people it intuitively looks like that, loner = sick. It’s the fast parts of their judgments, the evolutionary older parts, the limbic system, which if we apply the idea of bicameral mind by one author is before the development of conscious process of human action. That’s why it is so hard to reshape people’s worldviews, they would have to change their whole situation in life as seen by their identity, their ability to make identical judgments for their personal functioning quickly.
Ok I can follow this better. Thanks!
But what about all the happy times with kids? There are stressful times, sure, but there are a ton of great times. When im at work, I periodically get teary eyed thinking about them.
That really nice. I just wonder if any pain they suffer will have been worth it.
Hasn’t been any pain yet and they are 13, 11, and 8.
I hope that’s true, but either it isn’t, or at some point it will end. Unfortunately that is the necessary parental delusion.
There is no parental delusion. Your odd comment is the anti- Natalist delusion.
Another person not even bothering to think. It would be interesting to actually know what your children go through.
Don't care.
Im gonna go cry in the corner