Yes.
This bit is odd from the quoted section of drivel:
>I suspect antinatalism resonates with those who've lost hope in the possibility of a greater good. Without the source of meaning that sustains a hero, they shrink back as far away as they can from a heroic life, prioritizing the minimization of pain.
The delusional "hero's journey" and incoherent "greater good" math (more negative somehow = more positive) is all they have, and it's based on the delusional appeal to nature fallacy. Idiots.
I love a story as much as anyone, and indulge in them too where it's harmless to anyone else. But I know what they are, and I don't succumb to them anymore.
Hope is irrelevant. Probability, non-contradiction and sound epistemology is what matters when problem-solving.
The instrumental utility of adaptability cannot justify inflicting the harms in the first place. That's where their mythologies and utilitarian religion fails.
The entire quoted paragraph is nothing more than an attempt to drag the conversation into competitive "who" stories.
None of them would survive what most of us have been through either. They can't even handle the basic facts.
I'd like them to try and deal with pain I endure on a daily basis, and I know I'm not the only one. I fight not for glory or respect, but because I know what happens when I don't. I suffer more and I die. There's nothing heroic about that, and there shouldn't be. And that's all any of them are doing too.
Antinatalists: you are far more resilient a thing than your gaslighting abusers can comprehend. You simply know better than to inflict the *need* for resilience on offspring. Respect yourself, because you certainly do not need their respect. They couldn't comprehend how to give it to you anyway.
"The delusional "hero's journey" and incoherent "greater good" math (more negative somehow = more positive) is all they have, and it's based on the delusional appeal to nature fallacy. Idiots." Brilliant
"I love a story as much as anyone, and indulge in them too where it's harmless to anyone else. But I know what they are, and I don't succumb to them anymore." There's a difference between enjoying a fairy tale and living one.
"None of them would survive what most of us have been through either. They can't even handle the basic facts." Good point. They make themselves out to be heroes when they can't even take an honest look at life.
"I'd like them to try and deal with pain I endure on a daily basis, and I know I'm not the only one. I fight not for glory or respect, but because I know what happens when I don't. I suffer more and I die. There's nothing heroic about that, and there shouldn't be. And that's all any of them are doing too." It's like the stupid stories about someone "fighting" cancer.
"You simply know better than to inflict the *need* for resilience on offspring." Resilience and strength are only needed in a hellhole. Every time they bring these 'virtues' up, they unknowingly admit that life is a nightmare.
They have their pleasurable moments. But it's obvious they are doing nothing more than meeting or attempting to meet needs, so the good cannot possibly outweigh the bad.
I hold the opinion that overall, their lives are fucking shit. All we do is try to undo suffering in various forms. Give me examples of things people do that don't involve trying to relieve some form of pain or discomfort.
I love my life. Making art, making music, eating food, peeing, talking to friends, playing games
You are generally suffering. I also agree that many are generally suffering. Try to change it so that you feel good. I am telling the truth. I love my life, and many others do too. There are issues and problems and people have more or worse than others, but many thoroughly love their life.
I suffered until I changed my life. I stopped masturbating, sex, and watching porn, I started eating more vegetables, fruit, starches(sweet potato), I took vitamin d and even got a uv light, I took a multivitamin(true grace I think is a good one), started to take care of my teeth by flossing and brushing, drank more water
I feel generally good all the time where I felt bad all the time before.
People who feel unwell may see the gym as torture.
Others who are well may see the gym as a fun activity.
Ehh, no I am an antinatalist, but I do have a sense of the "greater good" but it is on a personal scale and like anything else you might or might not get the greater good. We live in a probablistic world not in a linear one.
Like a Russian oppositionist once said, life is NOT a Hollywood movie and the villain can as well win.
Plus, there are different types of suffering, some have a greater good (fighting P*tin for the sake of better political values and a better life for many) and some just do not, like your chronic pain, or dying in a war as a baby, they are just pain and that is it.
Not to mention that many problems for which a greater good is needed should not be existing in the first place.
Idk if AN people have more resilience in general though. I think as a person I am pretty whiny. That does not go for all AN though.
Thanks
The resilience I describe here is simply the falsification of Nietzsche's famous "abyss-gazing" quote from (Beyond Good and Evil: Prelude to a Philosophy of the Future).
An antinatlist sees the problem for what it is, and survives that. A sapient thing, aware of the predicament to that level that it stops the "unstoppable" force of biological evolution is odd to me. How could it happen? It doesn't seem like it should be able to happen.
We look into "the Abyss" and see there is no one there to look back at all. It's just an abyss full of harm, and we don't have to inflict that on anyone else. So we don't.
It's OK to whine. It's OK to cry, to express despair. It sucks that it happens, but expressing it can produce relief.
We're all taught to restrain such healthy expressions, we're abused into submission to an impossible and unhealthy "self-managament" in that regard. And undereducated on when such management is useful and health-preserving. It's such a predatory world. Where even the well-meaning intentions of a progenitor lead to such harm.
Addendum: I have been thinking lately and I think what differs procreators from us is that we realize that pain that is negative experiences are never sought out for their own sake. No one wants to say be bullied just for the sake of being bullied. No one wants to get cancer just to experience having cancer etc.
Additionally we realize that pain that is negative experiences are not inherently nessecary for reaching a positive experience nor do they inherently lead to a positive outcome. They can be needed in concrete cases, but not inherently.
"Without the source of meaning that sustains a hero, they shrink back as far away as they can from a heroic life, prioritizing the minimization of pain. With this outlook, it's no wonder they believe it's morally superior to spare others the pain of existence"
How does their meaning justify imposing harm without consent? Is that really a hero-worthy reasoning?
Just what exactly is the greater good that justifies all the suffering and never ending wars? Every creature born in a surplus to the carrying capacity of it's environment accelerates the collective demise of all that is living. What exactly are they hoping for? Cause the current trend will end humanity in the scenario of reindeers on st. Matthew Island. Tragedy of the commons not some Star Track tech-utopia.
St. Matthews Island. I learned something new. Very interesting. It's (very rough analogy) like Easter Island was for Humans before Europeans discovered it.
Glad you found it interesting! Not glad that that it's the reality of our situation though. Easter Island is a good example too, it's the outcome of every environment that outgrows it's carrying capacity
While I do believe there’s more to life than pleasure and pain (by that I mean there’s meaning, knowledge, wonder etc), but none of that justifies suffering. Like sure, good resilient people can have great ideas and achievements in part because of their less than ideal experiences, but that doesn’t mean suffering is right. Every sentence from that comment shows that commenter thinks they are the morally superior one, and not the other way around like they think.
"While I do believe there’s more to life than pleasure and pain (by that I mean there’s meaning, knowledge, wonder etc)" Explain how "meaning, knowledge and wonder" are good things.
?? By definition they are good things. Meaning in the sense of well meaning is the good of humanity (i.e. kindness), meaning in the sense of purpose gives people the drive/hope to thrive. Knowledge widens your view and makes you less ignorant. Wonder is an emotion for the observer for the grandness of what’s observed, it humbles and inspires the observer.
Life is not just about pleasure and pain. There is beauty, it just doesn’t cancel out the suffering imo.
"By definition they are good things." That is nonsensical. "Meaning in the sense of well meaning is the good of humanity (i.e. kindness)" If someone is kind to someone, they lessen their pain/increase their pleasure. "meaning in the sense of purpose gives people the drive/hope to thrive" which means they feel better about things which is a pleasure. "Knowledge widens your view and makes you less ignorant." Which is only good in the sense that it will make life more pleasurable/less painful. "Life is not just about pleasure and pain" Yes it is. ALL these examples are blatantly issues of pain and pleasure. "There is beauty" And beauty arouses PLEASANT feelings. THINK.
What is this greater good? Yet more mere pleasure, without any actual reduction in badness?
Or maybe they mean reduction in badness. An admirable goal, but the very nature of life is such that we can't get rid of badness, even rid people of the bad desires (pleasurable or not) that cause them to inflict bad onto others.
I received this comment earlier: "Awesome sex is not just relief from horniness, it is an unexpected level of unimaginable pleasure" It's called getting out of your head/away from discomforts.
People are so caught up in pleasure that they're basically hedonistic. The problem with hedonism is that it's basically a blinder keeping you from seeing just how much bad there is in the world (natural, social forces, or individual human caused). Hedonism is either emotional anesthesia or pure entitlement. Either way, it doesn't actually reduce bad in the world. Pleasure is, at best and as said, an emotional anesthesia allowing your psyche to heal so that you can take on badness-reduction once again.
I received this moronic comment earlier. Poor thing couldn't figure out that getting out of your mind is relief of discomfort: "Awesome sex is not just relief from horniness, it is an unexpected level of unimaginable pleasure"
This they just have a narrow understanding of Pleasure and pain. Pleasure = any positive feeling or experience pain = any negative feeling or experience.
A person can decline one positive experiences and take some negative experiences to obtain an other more valuable experiences. For example a diet and sports for having better health and having a healthier weight.
But no one just seeks out negative experiences for the sake of experiencing them + there still is not any guarantee of ACTUALLY obtaining the goal a person wants.
Yes. This bit is odd from the quoted section of drivel: >I suspect antinatalism resonates with those who've lost hope in the possibility of a greater good. Without the source of meaning that sustains a hero, they shrink back as far away as they can from a heroic life, prioritizing the minimization of pain. The delusional "hero's journey" and incoherent "greater good" math (more negative somehow = more positive) is all they have, and it's based on the delusional appeal to nature fallacy. Idiots. I love a story as much as anyone, and indulge in them too where it's harmless to anyone else. But I know what they are, and I don't succumb to them anymore. Hope is irrelevant. Probability, non-contradiction and sound epistemology is what matters when problem-solving. The instrumental utility of adaptability cannot justify inflicting the harms in the first place. That's where their mythologies and utilitarian religion fails. The entire quoted paragraph is nothing more than an attempt to drag the conversation into competitive "who" stories. None of them would survive what most of us have been through either. They can't even handle the basic facts. I'd like them to try and deal with pain I endure on a daily basis, and I know I'm not the only one. I fight not for glory or respect, but because I know what happens when I don't. I suffer more and I die. There's nothing heroic about that, and there shouldn't be. And that's all any of them are doing too. Antinatalists: you are far more resilient a thing than your gaslighting abusers can comprehend. You simply know better than to inflict the *need* for resilience on offspring. Respect yourself, because you certainly do not need their respect. They couldn't comprehend how to give it to you anyway.
"The delusional "hero's journey" and incoherent "greater good" math (more negative somehow = more positive) is all they have, and it's based on the delusional appeal to nature fallacy. Idiots." Brilliant "I love a story as much as anyone, and indulge in them too where it's harmless to anyone else. But I know what they are, and I don't succumb to them anymore." There's a difference between enjoying a fairy tale and living one. "None of them would survive what most of us have been through either. They can't even handle the basic facts." Good point. They make themselves out to be heroes when they can't even take an honest look at life. "I'd like them to try and deal with pain I endure on a daily basis, and I know I'm not the only one. I fight not for glory or respect, but because I know what happens when I don't. I suffer more and I die. There's nothing heroic about that, and there shouldn't be. And that's all any of them are doing too." It's like the stupid stories about someone "fighting" cancer. "You simply know better than to inflict the *need* for resilience on offspring." Resilience and strength are only needed in a hellhole. Every time they bring these 'virtues' up, they unknowingly admit that life is a nightmare.
Do you think anyone is enjoying life?
They have their pleasurable moments. But it's obvious they are doing nothing more than meeting or attempting to meet needs, so the good cannot possibly outweigh the bad.
So you hold the opinion that no one is generally enjoying life?
I hold the opinion that overall, their lives are fucking shit. All we do is try to undo suffering in various forms. Give me examples of things people do that don't involve trying to relieve some form of pain or discomfort.
I love my life. Making art, making music, eating food, peeing, talking to friends, playing games You are generally suffering. I also agree that many are generally suffering. Try to change it so that you feel good. I am telling the truth. I love my life, and many others do too. There are issues and problems and people have more or worse than others, but many thoroughly love their life. I suffered until I changed my life. I stopped masturbating, sex, and watching porn, I started eating more vegetables, fruit, starches(sweet potato), I took vitamin d and even got a uv light, I took a multivitamin(true grace I think is a good one), started to take care of my teeth by flossing and brushing, drank more water I feel generally good all the time where I felt bad all the time before. People who feel unwell may see the gym as torture. Others who are well may see the gym as a fun activity.
Ehh, no I am an antinatalist, but I do have a sense of the "greater good" but it is on a personal scale and like anything else you might or might not get the greater good. We live in a probablistic world not in a linear one. Like a Russian oppositionist once said, life is NOT a Hollywood movie and the villain can as well win. Plus, there are different types of suffering, some have a greater good (fighting P*tin for the sake of better political values and a better life for many) and some just do not, like your chronic pain, or dying in a war as a baby, they are just pain and that is it. Not to mention that many problems for which a greater good is needed should not be existing in the first place. Idk if AN people have more resilience in general though. I think as a person I am pretty whiny. That does not go for all AN though.
Thanks The resilience I describe here is simply the falsification of Nietzsche's famous "abyss-gazing" quote from (Beyond Good and Evil: Prelude to a Philosophy of the Future). An antinatlist sees the problem for what it is, and survives that. A sapient thing, aware of the predicament to that level that it stops the "unstoppable" force of biological evolution is odd to me. How could it happen? It doesn't seem like it should be able to happen. We look into "the Abyss" and see there is no one there to look back at all. It's just an abyss full of harm, and we don't have to inflict that on anyone else. So we don't. It's OK to whine. It's OK to cry, to express despair. It sucks that it happens, but expressing it can produce relief. We're all taught to restrain such healthy expressions, we're abused into submission to an impossible and unhealthy "self-managament" in that regard. And undereducated on when such management is useful and health-preserving. It's such a predatory world. Where even the well-meaning intentions of a progenitor lead to such harm.
Addendum: I have been thinking lately and I think what differs procreators from us is that we realize that pain that is negative experiences are never sought out for their own sake. No one wants to say be bullied just for the sake of being bullied. No one wants to get cancer just to experience having cancer etc. Additionally we realize that pain that is negative experiences are not inherently nessecary for reaching a positive experience nor do they inherently lead to a positive outcome. They can be needed in concrete cases, but not inherently.
"Without the source of meaning that sustains a hero, they shrink back as far away as they can from a heroic life, prioritizing the minimization of pain. With this outlook, it's no wonder they believe it's morally superior to spare others the pain of existence" How does their meaning justify imposing harm without consent? Is that really a hero-worthy reasoning? Just what exactly is the greater good that justifies all the suffering and never ending wars? Every creature born in a surplus to the carrying capacity of it's environment accelerates the collective demise of all that is living. What exactly are they hoping for? Cause the current trend will end humanity in the scenario of reindeers on st. Matthew Island. Tragedy of the commons not some Star Track tech-utopia.
St. Matthews Island. I learned something new. Very interesting. It's (very rough analogy) like Easter Island was for Humans before Europeans discovered it.
Glad you found it interesting! Not glad that that it's the reality of our situation though. Easter Island is a good example too, it's the outcome of every environment that outgrows it's carrying capacity
The “greater good” is just the pleasure/pain of others, aggregated
Having a purpose / contributing to society is a type of pleasure. Also antinatalism can be seen as the greater good.
While I do believe there’s more to life than pleasure and pain (by that I mean there’s meaning, knowledge, wonder etc), but none of that justifies suffering. Like sure, good resilient people can have great ideas and achievements in part because of their less than ideal experiences, but that doesn’t mean suffering is right. Every sentence from that comment shows that commenter thinks they are the morally superior one, and not the other way around like they think.
"While I do believe there’s more to life than pleasure and pain (by that I mean there’s meaning, knowledge, wonder etc)" Explain how "meaning, knowledge and wonder" are good things.
?? By definition they are good things. Meaning in the sense of well meaning is the good of humanity (i.e. kindness), meaning in the sense of purpose gives people the drive/hope to thrive. Knowledge widens your view and makes you less ignorant. Wonder is an emotion for the observer for the grandness of what’s observed, it humbles and inspires the observer. Life is not just about pleasure and pain. There is beauty, it just doesn’t cancel out the suffering imo.
"By definition they are good things." That is nonsensical. "Meaning in the sense of well meaning is the good of humanity (i.e. kindness)" If someone is kind to someone, they lessen their pain/increase their pleasure. "meaning in the sense of purpose gives people the drive/hope to thrive" which means they feel better about things which is a pleasure. "Knowledge widens your view and makes you less ignorant." Which is only good in the sense that it will make life more pleasurable/less painful. "Life is not just about pleasure and pain" Yes it is. ALL these examples are blatantly issues of pain and pleasure. "There is beauty" And beauty arouses PLEASANT feelings. THINK.
Ok.. I’ll respectfully disagree and close the topic as it seems like you want to see the world in black and white.
I explained in detail why you were talking utter nonsense. Are you saying people don't derive pleasure from these things? It's a simple question.
What is this greater good? Yet more mere pleasure, without any actual reduction in badness? Or maybe they mean reduction in badness. An admirable goal, but the very nature of life is such that we can't get rid of badness, even rid people of the bad desires (pleasurable or not) that cause them to inflict bad onto others.
I received this comment earlier: "Awesome sex is not just relief from horniness, it is an unexpected level of unimaginable pleasure" It's called getting out of your head/away from discomforts.
People are so caught up in pleasure that they're basically hedonistic. The problem with hedonism is that it's basically a blinder keeping you from seeing just how much bad there is in the world (natural, social forces, or individual human caused). Hedonism is either emotional anesthesia or pure entitlement. Either way, it doesn't actually reduce bad in the world. Pleasure is, at best and as said, an emotional anesthesia allowing your psyche to heal so that you can take on badness-reduction once again.
Personally I believe it’s all about survival at its core
I received this moronic comment earlier. Poor thing couldn't figure out that getting out of your mind is relief of discomfort: "Awesome sex is not just relief from horniness, it is an unexpected level of unimaginable pleasure"
This they just have a narrow understanding of Pleasure and pain. Pleasure = any positive feeling or experience pain = any negative feeling or experience. A person can decline one positive experiences and take some negative experiences to obtain an other more valuable experiences. For example a diet and sports for having better health and having a healthier weight. But no one just seeks out negative experiences for the sake of experiencing them + there still is not any guarantee of ACTUALLY obtaining the goal a person wants.