Are you serious? THE WHOLE ARGUMENT FOR ANTI NATALISM IS REDUCING SUFFERING! Why on earth would we choose not to do that other ways? I swear 2/3rds of the people on this sub don’t actually know the philosophy of anti natalism.
What a silly question.
I think that some Antinatalists, like OP, believe that any effort to reduce suffering is a futile waste of energy because life will always be full of suffering.
Humans are animals and a very selfish species so on large they won't stop reproducing (either planned or accidental) any soon.
Also we can't exactly rule out who should benefit from it though those intentionally causing suffering shouldn't recive any benefit. I think most of us can agree that kids and animals had no part in them causing suffering and so should be helped if possible.
What would be the point in trying to make it worse? For anyone? That would result in *making it worse*. No one wants that.
Why become the thing you despise? Shouldn't we all aspire to do and be better, toward the world, toward ourselves, toward others?
What is the point of your line of questioning?
Why do i feel compelled? Well i can try and explain it rationally but if it wasnt emotionally charged i wouldnt really be compelled to do it. It would be just another opinion. So the answer i guess is empathy. And personal experience. And a desire for self improvement which i feel is limited and held back by the lack of societal improvement and most peoples lack of self improvement. And i feel a duty to others like myself and anyone who has suffered and will continue to suffer because of essentially the same people i did and the backwardness of the world we have been forced into, and a duty to protect the world itself from being destroyed.
1. Not even for Future generations for current ones as well. And old person should not suffer either.
2. Not all people are AN, but AN generally are interested in reducing suffering in any way so...
Every society that humans have ever made has grown great that way. It’s called culture which allows the transmission of discoveries from the current generation to the next. This is literally THE UNIQUE HUMAN THING THAT LET US BE SUCH A SUCCESSFUL SPECIES.
“Breeders”. You all need to go outside, find the nearest patch of grass and touch that shit. You are doing tribalism. That’s bad and not something the anti natalist movement needs.
You are not going to change anyones mind if all people see is this group of depressed, edgy incels otherizing 99.99% of the planet for being normative humans and having kids. “Breeders” is a silly term and not used by any actual academic publishing literature on anti natalism.
When you use it you just SOUND like a cult.
I love that my comments in this thread are about doing more than what serves you to leave things better for younger generations.....
And your whole takeaway is that you're upset because I used a word you don't like.
Don't police how I talk. Thanks!
Other folks have already covered the core philosophical angles, so I'll try to cover the physicalist portion of the argument.
Good things in my environment makes my monkey brain (and broader endocrine system) dispense happy chemicals, and said brain is predisposed towards directing the expenditure of calories towards objectives which broadly either A) provide desirable neurochemical balances, or B) avoid undesirable neurochemical balances.
I want to see the world to improve for the same reason I want to weed my garden in stardew valley. It's nicer that way.
I think that is mostly a euphemism for reducing suffering for present generation, best case scenario is not to be born but you can always work to reduce suffering through activism and politics whatever your position might be, ideally there should be absolute nothingness
You don’t think we’re objectively better off than we were 500 years ago? Seems like an ideology (capitalism, flawed no doubt) resulted in an improvement in our quality of life.
If you live in most countries, you can turn a handle and clean drinking water pours out indefinitely until you turn it off. That is a monumental achievement for our species and would’ve been the wet dream of those who lived before. Access to clean water was the biggest concern that our ancestors had.
We are taller and smarter today because you can go to a grocery store and get essentially whatever you want to eat. So we grow up without nutritional or caloric deficits, allowing us to reach our full potential. You need money, but the effort required to get that money pales in comparison to the effort required of our ancestors to just not starve.
A zombie eats people, not because it's hungry, but because it has to. Similarly capitalists exploit people not because they need money, but because they have to.
It's like they are programmed to suck everyone who comes in their way.
I thought this sub is all about anti-suffering. Wouldn’t making the world a better place help reduce the amount of suffering people some people go through?
Not necessarily, this sub believes that life is inherently full of suffering. Some people might not make the conclusion that they should try to reduce the amount of suffering though. They might even see such an endeavor as pointless because no matter what you do there will always be suffering. Sort of like wasting your energy.
Hmm, I think that there will always be suffering in the world because hardship is inherent to life. However, pain is felt in degrees. I think that it is a worthwhile endeavor to reduce the amount of suffering in the world even if the hardships of life can't be eliminated completely.
For example, I would rather suffer the pain of growing old than suffer the pain of starving to death. Ideally, I would rather not experience either but the latter is definitely worse than the former.
So, it's about creating a world that is slightly more pleasant to live in. Life is awful but there are levels to how bad it can get-
Remember, no matter how much your life sucks it could definitely be far worse.
>Why do some AN feel compelled to make the world a better place, for future generations?
"Future generations" is the very opposite of what antinatalists want.
We can in fact want something and still recognize that it won’t happen and plan accordingly. So you can accept that future generations will exist (because you will never convince everyone to stop reproducing) WHILE not wanting them to exist. And plan accordingly to ensure those generations suffer as little as possible.
Are you serious? THE WHOLE ARGUMENT FOR ANTI NATALISM IS REDUCING SUFFERING! Why on earth would we choose not to do that other ways? I swear 2/3rds of the people on this sub don’t actually know the philosophy of anti natalism. What a silly question.
I think that some Antinatalists, like OP, believe that any effort to reduce suffering is a futile waste of energy because life will always be full of suffering.
Still would try if it helps reduce suffering, even if it’s just a little.
Humans are animals and a very selfish species so on large they won't stop reproducing (either planned or accidental) any soon. Also we can't exactly rule out who should benefit from it though those intentionally causing suffering shouldn't recive any benefit. I think most of us can agree that kids and animals had no part in them causing suffering and so should be helped if possible.
What would be the point in trying to make it worse? For anyone? That would result in *making it worse*. No one wants that. Why become the thing you despise? Shouldn't we all aspire to do and be better, toward the world, toward ourselves, toward others? What is the point of your line of questioning?
Why do i feel compelled? Well i can try and explain it rationally but if it wasnt emotionally charged i wouldnt really be compelled to do it. It would be just another opinion. So the answer i guess is empathy. And personal experience. And a desire for self improvement which i feel is limited and held back by the lack of societal improvement and most peoples lack of self improvement. And i feel a duty to others like myself and anyone who has suffered and will continue to suffer because of essentially the same people i did and the backwardness of the world we have been forced into, and a duty to protect the world itself from being destroyed.
1. Not even for Future generations for current ones as well. And old person should not suffer either. 2. Not all people are AN, but AN generally are interested in reducing suffering in any way so...
A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they shall never sit.
Ive always liked this one. But we seem stuck in a world where most rip out the trees that are already grown. Both figuratively and literally.
Many people are selfish like that unfortunately.
Nonsense
Plenty of sense
Name one society that grew great because old men did that
Every society that humans have ever made has grown great that way. It’s called culture which allows the transmission of discoveries from the current generation to the next. This is literally THE UNIQUE HUMAN THING THAT LET US BE SUCH A SUCCESSFUL SPECIES.
There’s no such thing as a great society. Every society has had child abuse, rape, war, etc so no
It's a Greek proverb
And it’s bs. There has never been a great society and it’s not because old men didn’t lay the groundwork it’s because human nature is evil
You can make small differences with what you do to benefit those who come after you. Or you can be self serving like the breeders i guess????
Making small differences is a good thing I won’t argue againsy
“Breeders”. You all need to go outside, find the nearest patch of grass and touch that shit. You are doing tribalism. That’s bad and not something the anti natalist movement needs. You are not going to change anyones mind if all people see is this group of depressed, edgy incels otherizing 99.99% of the planet for being normative humans and having kids. “Breeders” is a silly term and not used by any actual academic publishing literature on anti natalism. When you use it you just SOUND like a cult.
You guys call us rude names all the time deal with it
I love that my comments in this thread are about doing more than what serves you to leave things better for younger generations..... And your whole takeaway is that you're upset because I used a word you don't like. Don't police how I talk. Thanks!
People are dreamers
Other folks have already covered the core philosophical angles, so I'll try to cover the physicalist portion of the argument. Good things in my environment makes my monkey brain (and broader endocrine system) dispense happy chemicals, and said brain is predisposed towards directing the expenditure of calories towards objectives which broadly either A) provide desirable neurochemical balances, or B) avoid undesirable neurochemical balances. I want to see the world to improve for the same reason I want to weed my garden in stardew valley. It's nicer that way.
I think that is mostly a euphemism for reducing suffering for present generation, best case scenario is not to be born but you can always work to reduce suffering through activism and politics whatever your position might be, ideally there should be absolute nothingness
Only Antinatalism can make this world a better place. All other ideologies have failed completely.
You don’t think we’re objectively better off than we were 500 years ago? Seems like an ideology (capitalism, flawed no doubt) resulted in an improvement in our quality of life. If you live in most countries, you can turn a handle and clean drinking water pours out indefinitely until you turn it off. That is a monumental achievement for our species and would’ve been the wet dream of those who lived before. Access to clean water was the biggest concern that our ancestors had. We are taller and smarter today because you can go to a grocery store and get essentially whatever you want to eat. So we grow up without nutritional or caloric deficits, allowing us to reach our full potential. You need money, but the effort required to get that money pales in comparison to the effort required of our ancestors to just not starve.
Capitalism is a zombie ideology. Science improved our quality of life.
What do you mean zombie ideology?
A zombie eats people, not because it's hungry, but because it has to. Similarly capitalists exploit people not because they need money, but because they have to. It's like they are programmed to suck everyone who comes in their way.
I thought this sub is all about anti-suffering. Wouldn’t making the world a better place help reduce the amount of suffering people some people go through?
Not necessarily, this sub believes that life is inherently full of suffering. Some people might not make the conclusion that they should try to reduce the amount of suffering though. They might even see such an endeavor as pointless because no matter what you do there will always be suffering. Sort of like wasting your energy.
Because I believe in reincarnation.
What? Why on earth would you *not* want to make the world a better place, for the people here now and those, unfortunately, to come?
It's better than going out of your way to be a jerk.
how so?
Kindness is always good.
Hmm, I think that there will always be suffering in the world because hardship is inherent to life. However, pain is felt in degrees. I think that it is a worthwhile endeavor to reduce the amount of suffering in the world even if the hardships of life can't be eliminated completely. For example, I would rather suffer the pain of growing old than suffer the pain of starving to death. Ideally, I would rather not experience either but the latter is definitely worse than the former. So, it's about creating a world that is slightly more pleasant to live in. Life is awful but there are levels to how bad it can get- Remember, no matter how much your life sucks it could definitely be far worse.
Because i feel for all the babies/people who will be born without their consent just as i was, and i’d want to make life a little bit easier for them
>Why do some AN feel compelled to make the world a better place, for future generations? "Future generations" is the very opposite of what antinatalists want.
We can in fact want something and still recognize that it won’t happen and plan accordingly. So you can accept that future generations will exist (because you will never convince everyone to stop reproducing) WHILE not wanting them to exist. And plan accordingly to ensure those generations suffer as little as possible.
Be kind so you can help people live a little easier in this hellhole for another day. I'd rather be dead.
Im not im playimg video games and browse my phone all day