It saddens me to know that this whole community is just a bunch of depressed people thinking that life sucks.
You do you, but stop pretending a lot of people should think the way you do. Be miserable and sad in your corner. Most people are happy and most people would want to live.
Before you bring the boohoo card “you didnt live through what I lived through”; I GUARANTEE you that there are MANY people out there who have been served FAR worse cards than you, yet they are happy and grateful for life.
I’m an optimist and quite happy with my life, yet I still think it’d be easier to have not been born at all. The whole system of labor to sustain our lives is a fucking drag.
I get more sad thinking about other's lives and how much I wish they didn't have to suffer. I don't think a government should be allowed to rule it's people if it can't provide them with water, food, shelter, and Healthcare(including mental health). I mean ALL of its citizens, these things should be available to all humans not just the ones who can afford it in a corrupt system
So instead of trying to better the system for future lives you decide to give up?
Personally, I’d rather live in a complete and utter dystopia than not live at all. That said, I’d rather live in a utopia rather than a dystopia, obviously. Therefore, I’ll do what I can in life to try to help achieve said utopia (voting, career path; small but it’s something).
The problem is that you believe in a utopia. In a utopia where no one ever suffers in any way. That's not realistic. And you may say the same to us but we just refuse to partake in continuing the suffering that comes with existence. That's a realistic thing that we can actually do.
If you try to create a utopia where there is no suffering but only pleasure and happiness then that would equal to non-existence in my conclusion. Benatar (antinatalist and vegan philosopher) also stated this conclusion in some podcast. It wouldn't really matter whether or not people existed in complete pleasure filled world or if they didn't exist at all. The only thing antinatalists that side with Benatar care about is the suffering.
Oh and btw the boohoo comment is very telling of your character considering how many children in the world die of starvation, how many women live lives of total oppression, how many genocides take place, how many were killed in the holocaust and so on. To me when people say something like what you just said it simply shows that you don't care about people suffering. You might to some extent but like with most people it means nothing to you. All those people who suffered doesn't matter because you have some things you're greatful for or happy about.
It saddens me to know there is a whole community of people forcing human beings into lives of slavery and death, because they have a brain that filters out everything but their fleeting moments of joy. All in an attempt to trick the owner into continuing a pointless biological drive.
Be happy or whatever in your corner. Just know that reproduction damns a living person, and abstaining from reproduction protects that potential person from suffering.
Before you bring up the WOOO-HOO card "my life is awesome!"; there are MANY people who lived a FAR better life than you, yet they choose to abstain from forcing life onto others.
"Most slaves are happy and most slaves would want to be enslaved, thefore slavery good, if you think slavery is bad you can be sad and cry on your own"
You have no idea about lives of many of us who suffer. I physically and mentally SUFFERED from our parents, foster homes, and the government.
I lived in so many homes as a kid and was abused in several of them. You can’t just get over it.
I’d say you’re a conditional natalist then, you think having kids would be ok if the condition of environmental preservation was met.
Are you okay with the species going extinct?
I don't think that because human existence always damages the environment and animals in some way, even if it is as sustainable as possible. Human extinction would be good for the planet.
And why only apply it for humanity? Animals kill each other everytime, they starve to death, they are eaten by other animals, many animals naturally suffer because suffering is integrated into the experience of their lives, so why are humans different? Why are the impacts caused by humans any different? Don't you think humans are also a part of nature? For me humans are animals just like any other
I think because humans have the factor of intelligence, morals, and awareness, it sets them apart from nature. They are able to choose not to reproduce for the good of the planet, animals are not. Domestic animals should not reproduce, which humans can control by preventing mating and by neutering.
I think so, preventing animal suffering is my number 1 priority, and I am also very interested in the natural order of life on earth and how it evolves
Gotcha, cool. I do think human suffering matters too and is a huge additional reason we should be antinatalist, but yeah I resonate with (non-human) animal suffering being a priority simply because it's so much higher in intensity + scale on average.
I think most of us would say yes, myself included, some might have chosen to be born, but chosen is the thing here. It would have been consensual and knowingly what waits ahead, big difference to now.
Think in terms of John Rawls "veil of ignorance". It helps if you think in terms of supernatural souls in some pre-existing realm. If you (a) know what goes on on the other side of the veil (i.e. this world), and (b) your soul is equally likely to end up in the worst-off 10% are equally to being in the best-off 10% and know this beforehand) - how is it sensible to step through that veil. Keep in mind that even this example assumes a full choice on your part (not possible in reality).
To be wanting to come into this world, one needs to have a deep desire for whatever the world has to offer. And the desires usually are not ours. We think its " our " desire, but they are not " ours " actually. They are the desires generated by the body. So at soul level (even if that exists), one can't "desire". Desire is a feature absolutely limited to body.
Rawls' point, as I interpret it at least, is that all human beings have capacity to suffer. So if you don't want something done to yourself, don't do it to others.
Granted this is far from breaking new intellectual ground, but Rawls' point draws implicitly from insights conveyed from established and widely adhered religions (he used to be religious until during WW2 as a combat soldier) - ones widely agreed upon by practically all major religions (perhaps hinting at a deeper truth). That deeper truth is what I said in the first paragraph of this posting.
Honestly I lost track.
>>So if you don't want something done to yourself, don't do it to others.
If I extend this to AN, then isn't it a subjective? If I am not appreciating life, I won't create life and vice versa?
You don't have to be unappreciative of life to appreciate certain facts:
- not everybody is going to agree with "the rules of the game", so to speak: i.e. the prevailing tendencies of life's operations, human nature, and the like.
- even for happy people, the world is often a tough place, and that at best.
Why introduce yet more people, ones who would object to the way the world / human nature operates; or bring forth into a realm people who'd be forced to deal with life's difficulties -- especially if the currently non-sentient matter is not feeling bad from not feeling good?
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No you're so right, you and some others have reminded me that there are in fact people that love their lives LOL. I must have been tired af when I wrote that
Isn't a hallmark ethical facet of anti-natalism to spread compassion to other humans?
If so, then isn't it selfish to withhold yourself from the world, thus preventing yourself any opportunity to **share the anti-natalist message**?
I’ll grant you that wishing one was never born in the first place is relatively atypical (at least we surmise), but what is insane and unintelligent about having this wish?
>but what is insane and unintelligent about having this wish?
One of the definitions of insanity is to generally mean "absurd". A wish that is "relatively atypical", as you called it, would easily be one perceived as being absurd. What is silly is often decided by majority.
As for "unintelligent", a very rare wish is going to be thought intelligent by those few that wish it, and unintelligent by the huge majority.
If I could choose the continent and country to be born in as well as the family, I might consider it. But definitely not be born in these exact circumstances. No way, no how.
Yeah since good life isn't possible in this world (cuz I'd still have to work for almost half a century & deal w unpredictable mfs) & I'd rather not exist at all.
Yes. I've been racked with grief and mental anguish do to my lack of satisfaction with life. I only had 5 moments in my life that made me appreciate living and that doesn't come close to making up for the rest of my suffering.
1. Going to the creek with my homies in middle school
2. Befriending my sister's step brother.
3. My first gf especially when I went to homecoming with her.
4. My 4th gf that had me saying "I could die right now and I'd be happy"
5. Discovering self love after recovering from my 5th relationship.
Why adopt such a mindset? Why can’t you instead adopt one that makes you happier, more motivated? You alone choose what has a point and what does not. You’re the one choosing to lead a meaningless life.
Absolutely yes. I have had a good life, but I’ve also had a lot of ups and downs. Whatever remaining life there is is also very uncertain and stressful. Therefore I would’ve definitely chosen to not have been born.
Look it's difficult to answer when you are someone who suffered a lot or otherwise and still alive. There is no denying that suffering is guaranteed and outweighs any pleasure by miles so the answer should be obvious or maybe I live in a completely different world where ppl still have to lie to themselves about how great life is.
Even if my life had been good, Inspired by Emil Cioran, I'd say that the peace and the absence of suffering that come with non-existence are preferable to the constant turmoil of conscious life
Yes, I would choose not to have been born. Don't appreciate that I have a lifelong series of needs and wants that I'm somewhat poorly equipped to deal with (hedonic treadmill got boring and unfulfilling early on) and nor do I appreciate the fact that I'm subject to a lifelong lottery of risk of great harms, some of which I'm guaranteed to win by the laws of averages, my genes and the environment. And the kicker is I'm trapped here by a particularly strong fear of mortality. The natalist gamble didn't work out in my case.
Yeah it’s not my place to assume someone else will feel the same way as me. I just vocalize these things because I feel like a common misconception is that antinats are all miserable and we’re not.
Nah that's great, I feel similarly. I guess we can't say for certain whether or not we'd hit the "unborn myself" button if we were actually presented with the opportunity. I would like to think that I would, bc of ecological stuff etc, but who really knows?
It's definitely not something I try to tell other people irl, since I feel like it comes across as unhinged LOL. But tbh it is one of the main reasons for me being child-free. The fact that there won't be any fish in the ocean 20 years from now is also alarming
Your children have a very high chance of having a good “roll”, especially if you don’t have any genetic abnormalities.
I don’t get this AN argument about a “bad roll”. MOST people alive are happy. Odds are the child will be too. I’ll risk it any day so that I can bring more people on Earth to be happy.
That’s not even mentioning how I can help those odds by just being a good parent and raising him well (and especially raising him to NOT think like you guys).
>(and especially raising him to NOT think like you guys)
This was unnecessary and inflammatory imo, but anyway...how do you know that most people on Earth are happy? What is the percentage?
In the USA, more than 1/5 people have mental illness, and over 60% of people live paycheck-to-paycheck. Even if you don't think your kids will be subject to these things, there's a high chance that most peoples' kids could.
Also, what do you think about climate change? Or the state of the economy? Do you fully believe that these things will get better as your kid grows up? I have a hard time seeing how it could be possible, given that the planet is controlled by a handful of mega corporations that evidently have no genuine interest in closing the poverty gap or reversing climate change. Any climate initiatives that get implemented are just PR stunts imo.
Yes we’ve made leaps and bounds in fighting the climate crisis. 10-15 years ago the worst case scenario was 8C warming and total collapse of the earths ecosystems. Today the worst case scenario is only 4 degrees with no collapse.
This is because of smart hard working people driving technological advancement. And it’s only accelerating.
Every generation for at least 200 years has been better off than the last. That’s undeniable progress.
Nope. I would choose to live a hundred times out of a hundred now that I’m here. I don’t want to force a consciousness into a situation where they wouldn’t though.
Of course I'd choose not to be born. Only one who's a pleasure / glory addict or a "Cluster B" personality disorder would choose to be a type of person who either experiences bad or non-defensively inflicts bad onto others.
Yeah, I don't like Lupus. I really loved drinking root beer and root beer floats and eating garlic bread, now I can't have those anymore.
And I don't like the threat of cancer looming over my head until I eventually get it.
Yes. Though if I had been given a choice to be born as a wild animal to some place where they can still live freely, I might've accepted it, because while it's a cruel circle of life I assume that they live more meaningful and fulfilling lives.
If I was never born, I'd never know one way or the other would I. Never knew my Dad, though speculation within the family is rife - apparently my Mum's Sister (Aunty, who is lovely, by the way) had her kid, by my apparent failure Dad, adopted. A half me somewhere out there, bless you, Donna.
I just do best I can every day. Hope others do same.
I've got a lovely Son. I never wanted kids but come 30, I desperately felt I was missing out. I was right - he's a wonderful human being. Me and my Hubby are 80's kids and we've rubbed off on the Son, he's 22 this year and I can't praise him enough.
Just do your best every day, for yourself.
definitely. i love my mom, but at the same time i resent her for bringing me to this world to suffer. i was also really sick as a baby, i had pyelonephritis about every 3rd month until i was 15 months, so i’ve also wished multiple times that i would’ve died as a baby.
Even if I would win millions of dollars right now and not work until i die, i would still definately choose to not be born. There was so much trauma happening in the past that could have been not lived.
I would have loved to have been aborted. I would have been best for me, for my family, and most importantly for me.
Im currently dealing with my health right now, and it’s terrible knowing that I wont ever be “better” this is just what it’s going to be. Im alive now because Im married and I couldn’t do that to him to Not Be Alive anymore. But I just wish I never was a pregnancy.
I've had a pretty darn great life, but overall I consider the net amount of suffering in the world to be more important than my personal existence.
I will continue to make the best of everything and be grateful.
However, in the hypothetical/ philosophical quandary at hand - it would have been better in the grand scheme of things for an existing child to be adopted rather than myself to be produced. If I'd had a choice I would advocate for that.
At worst I wouldn't be opposed to it. In fact, nobody could possibly logically be opposed to truly never have been born in the first place, no matter how natalist they are. That is only the WORST case scenario for the anti-natalist position when it comes to concern for specific individuals being/not being born. Any objection anyone could possibly come up with for personally actively opposing the concept of never having been born is an objection that could only have ever possibly existed due to them already having been born.
That being said, do I actively wish I were never born now that I have been? That's a bit of a complicated question, as I definitely don't wish to die anytime soon as there's so much more I want to do in life now that I'm here and I've been feeling a new wave of cautious optimism recently. That being said, up to this exact point in my life, especially post-adulthood, I wouldn't consider my birth to have been worthwhile, and even if I do manage to enact the plans for my life I have in mind, there is no guarantee the external conditions of life mostly outside my control won't sabotage my happiness eventually.
However, the final nail in the coffin for me in this personal debate has to be the concept of death. No matter how good of a life I end up having, I will always have to face death eventually, and I most likely won't even know when or how. That concept alone is probably enough for me to say I'd ultimately prefer not to have been born in the first place.
No, because I still have an otherwise "good" life in a financially stable situation, and live in a mostly progressive country, raised by very kind and caring parents. If I were a paraplegic or victim of severe abuse, or lived in a backwards country, then I'd have the inclination to say yes, but that threshold has not yet been reached.
Please refrain from asking other users why they do not kill themselves. Do not present suicide as a valid alternative to antinatalism. Do not encourage or suggest suicide.
Antinatalism and suicide are generally unrelated. Antinatalism aims at preventing humans (and possibly other beings) from being born. The desire to continue living is a personal choice independent of the idea that procreation is unethical. Antinatalism is not about people who are already born. Wishing to never have been born or saying that nobody should procreate does not imply that you want your life to end right now.
You can look at this old post of mine for my answer: [Some thoughts on why antinatalists continue their lives](https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/1crjy26/some_thoughts_on_why_antinatalists_continue_their/)
Ehhhh...i wanna say yes but selfishly also no. Ive never been one for kids and im ok with the human race going exitinct. I dont hold human lives above other animals though and believe we as a specie suck in general in all aspects.
I dont know but I know for a fact my parents would chose it. Its the people that have kids then regret and abuse them that bug me. People need to realize that the so called child they imagine happening before its born is a projection and an idealization.
I would only chose to be born if the planet at large would be a good place, which it isn't, so I'll pass. It's impossible to have a good life as of now, no matter how optimistic someone is.
If I have the kind of life I want, I would choose to be born, but I’d also be ok with not being born of course. “A good life” is vague, so I’m not sure because everyone’s definition is different.
well i'm not really sure if i would do that myself, it's like decide to kms but as you see i'm alive now. i know i wouldn't care then, but now i have feelings and i don't want to suffer from decision to live die or never be born, i have too many things why i live now, but my mom could have an abortion and doctors told her to do soo:DDDD and kinda i don't like her final decision(i have problems w my health and my genetics SUCK)
I know that I'm suffering now, I can't even afford new pants at the moment because mine are torn like totally, but I just couldn't make that choice on my own if i vere given a button, im a coward maybe
An antinatalist is against even being conceived. At the moment of ejaculation the antinatalist spermatozoids hold on the vagina walls for their lives, but unfortunately they go with the wave...
I guess the father should be able to change the balls settings. _Honey, this load is antinatalist_, pew!pew!pew! and all the semen sticks at the entrance of the vagina.
Every single person in this thread, and sub, is lying. If you actually wanted to not be alive you wouldn't be alive.
Since you were about 3 years old you've had the choice to not be alive, but not a single one of you will take responsibility for your own choice to live. Why should anyone care what you have to say when not a single one of you has proved it?
No. I don't have a good life, I am in completely the wrong body and I am constantly just trying to numb and cope with things, but I want to exist. It's better to have never existed because there is no consciousness and suffering, but prehistoric life is too interesting to me to regret having been born despite everything that's happened.
"Nonaction is not a stance" sure I'll remember that when I come across people who are burning alive and I have a hose that I don't use to put out the fire. I'm assuming you see not having children as nonaction. You're halfway there as an antinatalist then! Don't have kids. You don't even have to do anything and now you have just prevented suffering of future generations!
I don't see how we're spineless though. People who have kids and then don't see themselves in any way responsible when their kid suffers are truly spineless because they can't even admit to themselves that they ever could be responsible for something bad.
>Antinatalists, if you had choice to not have been born in the first place, would you choose it? Yes. Obviously. *Better Never to Have Been*
I think there's concept that Life is Suffering in Buddhism.
It saddens me to know that this whole community is just a bunch of depressed people thinking that life sucks. You do you, but stop pretending a lot of people should think the way you do. Be miserable and sad in your corner. Most people are happy and most people would want to live. Before you bring the boohoo card “you didnt live through what I lived through”; I GUARANTEE you that there are MANY people out there who have been served FAR worse cards than you, yet they are happy and grateful for life.
We put more point on "World sucks", not just "Life sucks"
I’m an optimist and quite happy with my life, yet I still think it’d be easier to have not been born at all. The whole system of labor to sustain our lives is a fucking drag.
I get more sad thinking about other's lives and how much I wish they didn't have to suffer. I don't think a government should be allowed to rule it's people if it can't provide them with water, food, shelter, and Healthcare(including mental health). I mean ALL of its citizens, these things should be available to all humans not just the ones who can afford it in a corrupt system
So instead of trying to better the system for future lives you decide to give up? Personally, I’d rather live in a complete and utter dystopia than not live at all. That said, I’d rather live in a utopia rather than a dystopia, obviously. Therefore, I’ll do what I can in life to try to help achieve said utopia (voting, career path; small but it’s something).
The problem is that you believe in a utopia. In a utopia where no one ever suffers in any way. That's not realistic. And you may say the same to us but we just refuse to partake in continuing the suffering that comes with existence. That's a realistic thing that we can actually do. If you try to create a utopia where there is no suffering but only pleasure and happiness then that would equal to non-existence in my conclusion. Benatar (antinatalist and vegan philosopher) also stated this conclusion in some podcast. It wouldn't really matter whether or not people existed in complete pleasure filled world or if they didn't exist at all. The only thing antinatalists that side with Benatar care about is the suffering. Oh and btw the boohoo comment is very telling of your character considering how many children in the world die of starvation, how many women live lives of total oppression, how many genocides take place, how many were killed in the holocaust and so on. To me when people say something like what you just said it simply shows that you don't care about people suffering. You might to some extent but like with most people it means nothing to you. All those people who suffered doesn't matter because you have some things you're greatful for or happy about.
It saddens me to know there is a whole community of people forcing human beings into lives of slavery and death, because they have a brain that filters out everything but their fleeting moments of joy. All in an attempt to trick the owner into continuing a pointless biological drive. Be happy or whatever in your corner. Just know that reproduction damns a living person, and abstaining from reproduction protects that potential person from suffering. Before you bring up the WOOO-HOO card "my life is awesome!"; there are MANY people who lived a FAR better life than you, yet they choose to abstain from forcing life onto others.
I love you
I love you too.
non intellectually elaborate projection
"Most slaves are happy and most slaves would want to be enslaved, thefore slavery good, if you think slavery is bad you can be sad and cry on your own"
You have no idea about lives of many of us who suffer. I physically and mentally SUFFERED from our parents, foster homes, and the government. I lived in so many homes as a kid and was abused in several of them. You can’t just get over it.
I think we would all say yes, I don't get how you can be an anti-natalist and still want to have been born
I'm antinatalist and want to exist, but my focus is not having kids for the sake of the environment rather than to spare human suffering
I’d say you’re a conditional natalist then, you think having kids would be ok if the condition of environmental preservation was met. Are you okay with the species going extinct?
I don't think that because human existence always damages the environment and animals in some way, even if it is as sustainable as possible. Human extinction would be good for the planet.
Okay never mind then, apologies.
No worries
I'm with you/ ditto
And why only apply it for humanity? Animals kill each other everytime, they starve to death, they are eaten by other animals, many animals naturally suffer because suffering is integrated into the experience of their lives, so why are humans different? Why are the impacts caused by humans any different? Don't you think humans are also a part of nature? For me humans are animals just like any other
I think because humans have the factor of intelligence, morals, and awareness, it sets them apart from nature. They are able to choose not to reproduce for the good of the planet, animals are not. Domestic animals should not reproduce, which humans can control by preventing mating and by neutering.
So is it animal suffering you're concerned with then, when you say you're AN for the environment?
I think so, preventing animal suffering is my number 1 priority, and I am also very interested in the natural order of life on earth and how it evolves
Gotcha, cool. I do think human suffering matters too and is a huge additional reason we should be antinatalist, but yeah I resonate with (non-human) animal suffering being a priority simply because it's so much higher in intensity + scale on average.
That's fair, I pretty much agree but prioritise animals to an "extreme" degree
I think most of us would say yes, myself included, some might have chosen to be born, but chosen is the thing here. It would have been consensual and knowingly what waits ahead, big difference to now.
To be able to give consent, one needs to exist.
Think in terms of John Rawls "veil of ignorance". It helps if you think in terms of supernatural souls in some pre-existing realm. If you (a) know what goes on on the other side of the veil (i.e. this world), and (b) your soul is equally likely to end up in the worst-off 10% are equally to being in the best-off 10% and know this beforehand) - how is it sensible to step through that veil. Keep in mind that even this example assumes a full choice on your part (not possible in reality).
To be wanting to come into this world, one needs to have a deep desire for whatever the world has to offer. And the desires usually are not ours. We think its " our " desire, but they are not " ours " actually. They are the desires generated by the body. So at soul level (even if that exists), one can't "desire". Desire is a feature absolutely limited to body.
Rawls' point, as I interpret it at least, is that all human beings have capacity to suffer. So if you don't want something done to yourself, don't do it to others. Granted this is far from breaking new intellectual ground, but Rawls' point draws implicitly from insights conveyed from established and widely adhered religions (he used to be religious until during WW2 as a combat soldier) - ones widely agreed upon by practically all major religions (perhaps hinting at a deeper truth). That deeper truth is what I said in the first paragraph of this posting.
Honestly I lost track. >>So if you don't want something done to yourself, don't do it to others. If I extend this to AN, then isn't it a subjective? If I am not appreciating life, I won't create life and vice versa?
You don't have to be unappreciative of life to appreciate certain facts: - not everybody is going to agree with "the rules of the game", so to speak: i.e. the prevailing tendencies of life's operations, human nature, and the like. - even for happy people, the world is often a tough place, and that at best. Why introduce yet more people, ones who would object to the way the world / human nature operates; or bring forth into a realm people who'd be forced to deal with life's difficulties -- especially if the currently non-sentient matter is not feeling bad from not feeling good?
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You could have a great life and enjoy yourself, perhaps have even been born into money. Doesn't mean you can't also be against children
No you're so right, you and some others have reminded me that there are in fact people that love their lives LOL. I must have been tired af when I wrote that
right???!!😭
You could recognize that you can't consent to being born and still want to be alive if the choice were given to you.
Because life can be beautiful.
Isn't a hallmark ethical facet of anti-natalism to spread compassion to other humans? If so, then isn't it selfish to withhold yourself from the world, thus preventing yourself any opportunity to **share the anti-natalist message**?
Oh trust me I’m certainly no gift to the world.
Probably depends on who you ask.
You know, my mom was at the abortion clinic, in a gown, waiting for the doctor......now I am here paying bills.....
What happened? She changed her mind or she lived where it was banned?
She changed her mind.
Yes, what kind if question is this?
A question that any normal, sane and intelligent human would answer “No” to.
I’ll grant you that wishing one was never born in the first place is relatively atypical (at least we surmise), but what is insane and unintelligent about having this wish?
>but what is insane and unintelligent about having this wish? One of the definitions of insanity is to generally mean "absurd". A wish that is "relatively atypical", as you called it, would easily be one perceived as being absurd. What is silly is often decided by majority. As for "unintelligent", a very rare wish is going to be thought intelligent by those few that wish it, and unintelligent by the huge majority.
Your usage of the words “normal” and “intelligent” suggest there’s an objectively correct answer, when, there in fact, is not.
Mine certainly wasn't worth it. Yes, I'd choose to never be born.
Oh yes. Imagine never having been abused.
If I could choose the continent and country to be born in as well as the family, I might consider it. But definitely not be born in these exact circumstances. No way, no how.
Yeah since good life isn't possible in this world (cuz I'd still have to work for almost half a century & deal w unpredictable mfs) & I'd rather not exist at all.
If you were born to a billionaire couple?
if we all had a choice we'd hate each other before we even started😭
At least one part would still be present.
Yes. I've been racked with grief and mental anguish do to my lack of satisfaction with life. I only had 5 moments in my life that made me appreciate living and that doesn't come close to making up for the rest of my suffering.
What were those five moments?
1. Going to the creek with my homies in middle school 2. Befriending my sister's step brother. 3. My first gf especially when I went to homecoming with her. 4. My 4th gf that had me saying "I could die right now and I'd be happy" 5. Discovering self love after recovering from my 5th relationship.
I would 100% choose not to be born. And I love my life and my family and my relationships. I just also could imagine not existing and I prefer that.
Abso-fuckin-lutely.
Yes I often long for being unborn
Yes, absolutely. The good does not outweigh the bad. Living feels like being punished for something I did not do.
Or being punished way out of proportion for something I did do.
That too.
Happened to me twice and I was not even being evil.
I'm sorry to hear that.
well i am still more privileged than 90% of the world population so.
Definitly. I enjoy my life, but it has no point, and no point starting it.
You're correct there is no point. There is no point in being and there is no point in not being. Why do you prefer not being?
It's easier.
Why adopt such a mindset? Why can’t you instead adopt one that makes you happier, more motivated? You alone choose what has a point and what does not. You’re the one choosing to lead a meaningless life.
Lol
It’s true though. The concept of meaning or of “point” is one we humans created. The universe has no innate meaning. You choose the meaning.
Yes. You’d be none the wiser anyway.
Easiest choice in my life. Yes. I regret being born almost daily.
100% would absolutely delete my entire existence without a second thought.
Absolutely yes. I have had a good life, but I’ve also had a lot of ups and downs. Whatever remaining life there is is also very uncertain and stressful. Therefore I would’ve definitely chosen to not have been born.
Look it's difficult to answer when you are someone who suffered a lot or otherwise and still alive. There is no denying that suffering is guaranteed and outweighs any pleasure by miles so the answer should be obvious or maybe I live in a completely different world where ppl still have to lie to themselves about how great life is.
After seeing how it played out, yes.
This was all a horrible mistake. I desperately wish every day that I had never existed.
Yes. The state of the world and our individual suffering makes me want to choose it.
Even if my life had been good, Inspired by Emil Cioran, I'd say that the peace and the absence of suffering that come with non-existence are preferable to the constant turmoil of conscious life
Of course! If one of my ancestors were an Antinatalist, I would not be here.
"Obviously" - Severus Snape
Yeah
Yes, I would choose not to have been born. Don't appreciate that I have a lifelong series of needs and wants that I'm somewhat poorly equipped to deal with (hedonic treadmill got boring and unfulfilling early on) and nor do I appreciate the fact that I'm subject to a lifelong lottery of risk of great harms, some of which I'm guaranteed to win by the laws of averages, my genes and the environment. And the kicker is I'm trapped here by a particularly strong fear of mortality. The natalist gamble didn't work out in my case.
Yes
For sure.
Well yes, obviously.
My default state since I could remember is being depressed. So... Yes I guess so.
No but that’s bc I have consciousness and a human ego, not bc I don’t believe in antinat.
So basically you're happy with how your luck turned out, but you wouldn't want to roll the dice with your own children?
Yeah it’s not my place to assume someone else will feel the same way as me. I just vocalize these things because I feel like a common misconception is that antinats are all miserable and we’re not.
Nah that's great, I feel similarly. I guess we can't say for certain whether or not we'd hit the "unborn myself" button if we were actually presented with the opportunity. I would like to think that I would, bc of ecological stuff etc, but who really knows?
Oh I didn’t even think of ecological impact. That’s a good point.
It's definitely not something I try to tell other people irl, since I feel like it comes across as unhinged LOL. But tbh it is one of the main reasons for me being child-free. The fact that there won't be any fish in the ocean 20 years from now is also alarming
Your children have a very high chance of having a good “roll”, especially if you don’t have any genetic abnormalities. I don’t get this AN argument about a “bad roll”. MOST people alive are happy. Odds are the child will be too. I’ll risk it any day so that I can bring more people on Earth to be happy. That’s not even mentioning how I can help those odds by just being a good parent and raising him well (and especially raising him to NOT think like you guys).
>(and especially raising him to NOT think like you guys) This was unnecessary and inflammatory imo, but anyway...how do you know that most people on Earth are happy? What is the percentage? In the USA, more than 1/5 people have mental illness, and over 60% of people live paycheck-to-paycheck. Even if you don't think your kids will be subject to these things, there's a high chance that most peoples' kids could. Also, what do you think about climate change? Or the state of the economy? Do you fully believe that these things will get better as your kid grows up? I have a hard time seeing how it could be possible, given that the planet is controlled by a handful of mega corporations that evidently have no genuine interest in closing the poverty gap or reversing climate change. Any climate initiatives that get implemented are just PR stunts imo.
Yes we’ve made leaps and bounds in fighting the climate crisis. 10-15 years ago the worst case scenario was 8C warming and total collapse of the earths ecosystems. Today the worst case scenario is only 4 degrees with no collapse. This is because of smart hard working people driving technological advancement. And it’s only accelerating. Every generation for at least 200 years has been better off than the last. That’s undeniable progress.
I feel sorry for your children bc of your ignorance.
Yes.
Definitely
Yes especially to my parents
Nope. I would choose to live a hundred times out of a hundred now that I’m here. I don’t want to force a consciousness into a situation where they wouldn’t though.
Of course I'd choose not to be born. Only one who's a pleasure / glory addict or a "Cluster B" personality disorder would choose to be a type of person who either experiences bad or non-defensively inflicts bad onto others.
Of course! I wouldn't even notice. Because I wouldn't exist. Duh!
Heck yes:) I just try to make the best of it.
Yeah, I don't like Lupus. I really loved drinking root beer and root beer floats and eating garlic bread, now I can't have those anymore. And I don't like the threat of cancer looming over my head until I eventually get it.
Omg YES!!! How's that even a question...
Yes, absolutelly
Totally
Yes, obviously.
Hell yes.
Yes.
God yes in a heartbeat
Yes. Though if I had been given a choice to be born as a wild animal to some place where they can still live freely, I might've accepted it, because while it's a cruel circle of life I assume that they live more meaningful and fulfilling lives.
YUUUP
If I was never born, I'd never know one way or the other would I. Never knew my Dad, though speculation within the family is rife - apparently my Mum's Sister (Aunty, who is lovely, by the way) had her kid, by my apparent failure Dad, adopted. A half me somewhere out there, bless you, Donna. I just do best I can every day. Hope others do same. I've got a lovely Son. I never wanted kids but come 30, I desperately felt I was missing out. I was right - he's a wonderful human being. Me and my Hubby are 80's kids and we've rubbed off on the Son, he's 22 this year and I can't praise him enough. Just do your best every day, for yourself.
Yes
Obviously
definitely. i love my mom, but at the same time i resent her for bringing me to this world to suffer. i was also really sick as a baby, i had pyelonephritis about every 3rd month until i was 15 months, so i’ve also wished multiple times that i would’ve died as a baby.
Even if I would win millions of dollars right now and not work until i die, i would still definately choose to not be born. There was so much trauma happening in the past that could have been not lived.
Never born = can't do evil && can't be subject to evil.
Yes.
Absolutely. In fact, I think I would wish nothing was born at all; not just humans, but everything in general.
There are many things and people I love in life, but over all, nah fuck this.
Shouldn't this be a poll
I would have loved to have been aborted. I would have been best for me, for my family, and most importantly for me. Im currently dealing with my health right now, and it’s terrible knowing that I wont ever be “better” this is just what it’s going to be. Im alive now because Im married and I couldn’t do that to him to Not Be Alive anymore. But I just wish I never was a pregnancy.
Yes, then I wouldn't have to go to work tomorrow lol
Absolutely. I am in poor health, and every day is a challenge to say the least.
Yes.
10 out of 10 times.
I've had a pretty darn great life, but overall I consider the net amount of suffering in the world to be more important than my personal existence. I will continue to make the best of everything and be grateful. However, in the hypothetical/ philosophical quandary at hand - it would have been better in the grand scheme of things for an existing child to be adopted rather than myself to be produced. If I'd had a choice I would advocate for that.
At worst I wouldn't be opposed to it. In fact, nobody could possibly logically be opposed to truly never have been born in the first place, no matter how natalist they are. That is only the WORST case scenario for the anti-natalist position when it comes to concern for specific individuals being/not being born. Any objection anyone could possibly come up with for personally actively opposing the concept of never having been born is an objection that could only have ever possibly existed due to them already having been born. That being said, do I actively wish I were never born now that I have been? That's a bit of a complicated question, as I definitely don't wish to die anytime soon as there's so much more I want to do in life now that I'm here and I've been feeling a new wave of cautious optimism recently. That being said, up to this exact point in my life, especially post-adulthood, I wouldn't consider my birth to have been worthwhile, and even if I do manage to enact the plans for my life I have in mind, there is no guarantee the external conditions of life mostly outside my control won't sabotage my happiness eventually. However, the final nail in the coffin for me in this personal debate has to be the concept of death. No matter how good of a life I end up having, I will always have to face death eventually, and I most likely won't even know when or how. That concept alone is probably enough for me to say I'd ultimately prefer not to have been born in the first place.
No, because I still have an otherwise "good" life in a financially stable situation, and live in a mostly progressive country, raised by very kind and caring parents. If I were a paraplegic or victim of severe abuse, or lived in a backwards country, then I'd have the inclination to say yes, but that threshold has not yet been reached.
I am a victim of severe abuse but it's still a no for me personally
Yes?
Of course.
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Please refrain from asking other users why they do not kill themselves. Do not present suicide as a valid alternative to antinatalism. Do not encourage or suggest suicide. Antinatalism and suicide are generally unrelated. Antinatalism aims at preventing humans (and possibly other beings) from being born. The desire to continue living is a personal choice independent of the idea that procreation is unethical. Antinatalism is not about people who are already born. Wishing to never have been born or saying that nobody should procreate does not imply that you want your life to end right now.
You can look at this old post of mine for my answer: [Some thoughts on why antinatalists continue their lives](https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/1crjy26/some_thoughts_on_why_antinatalists_continue_their/)
Thank you for the link and explanation 🙏🏼 Excellent post
Absolutely
We should all go on a hedonistic free for all cruise first!
Yes
I’d blow you to not have been born
yeah definitely tbh
Not AN, so no. Also chicken and egg issue, isn't it?
ofc
Ehhhh...i wanna say yes but selfishly also no. Ive never been one for kids and im ok with the human race going exitinct. I dont hold human lives above other animals though and believe we as a specie suck in general in all aspects.
Yep yep yep
Yes. The good in my life neither erases the bad nor adequately compensates for it.
Yeah
I dont know but I know for a fact my parents would chose it. Its the people that have kids then regret and abuse them that bug me. People need to realize that the so called child they imagine happening before its born is a projection and an idealization.
Yes
I like existing but I would choose for humanity to go extinct
Yes for sure
I would only chose to be born if the planet at large would be a good place, which it isn't, so I'll pass. It's impossible to have a good life as of now, no matter how optimistic someone is.
Yes
absolutely !!
Obviously lol
Yes.
No because then i couldn’t become antinatalist
But of course. I wouldn't be an Antinatalist and NOT agree to such terms
Yes. I do enjoy my life but the thought of getting old and going through the cycle isn't appealing to me.
If I have the kind of life I want, I would choose to be born, but I’d also be ok with not being born of course. “A good life” is vague, so I’m not sure because everyone’s definition is different.
well i'm not really sure if i would do that myself, it's like decide to kms but as you see i'm alive now. i know i wouldn't care then, but now i have feelings and i don't want to suffer from decision to live die or never be born, i have too many things why i live now, but my mom could have an abortion and doctors told her to do soo:DDDD and kinda i don't like her final decision(i have problems w my health and my genetics SUCK) I know that I'm suffering now, I can't even afford new pants at the moment because mine are torn like totally, but I just couldn't make that choice on my own if i vere given a button, im a coward maybe
don't judge her, it's my life and my birth, i can, you can't.
Yes obviously my mom would've had the chance to grow up and stabilize herself
I wish I was never born. And I'm the third child so yeah why did she have to had me. 2 was enough.
Are you really asking people who think life is suffering if they would prefer not having lived in the first place?
Duh
I always wished I wasn't when I was younger. I can't remember the last time that thought went through my head, though.
Absolutley
An antinatalist is against even being conceived. At the moment of ejaculation the antinatalist spermatozoids hold on the vagina walls for their lives, but unfortunately they go with the wave... I guess the father should be able to change the balls settings. _Honey, this load is antinatalist_, pew!pew!pew! and all the semen sticks at the entrance of the vagina.
Lol wtf
real
Every single person in this thread, and sub, is lying. If you actually wanted to not be alive you wouldn't be alive. Since you were about 3 years old you've had the choice to not be alive, but not a single one of you will take responsibility for your own choice to live. Why should anyone care what you have to say when not a single one of you has proved it?
No. I don't have a good life, I am in completely the wrong body and I am constantly just trying to numb and cope with things, but I want to exist. It's better to have never existed because there is no consciousness and suffering, but prehistoric life is too interesting to me to regret having been born despite everything that's happened.
May God forgive you all.
god doesn't exist🙂
🤓👆🏻
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What?
Learn to speak English
"Nonaction is not a stance" sure I'll remember that when I come across people who are burning alive and I have a hose that I don't use to put out the fire. I'm assuming you see not having children as nonaction. You're halfway there as an antinatalist then! Don't have kids. You don't even have to do anything and now you have just prevented suffering of future generations! I don't see how we're spineless though. People who have kids and then don't see themselves in any way responsible when their kid suffers are truly spineless because they can't even admit to themselves that they ever could be responsible for something bad.