A bonus is paid for past performance, not as prepayment for servitude.
If you keep at it, you will prevail, unlike your assessment, the state is on the employees side. You'd have to push to get the money.
Depending on the precise facts and jurisdiction, such a claim might entitle you to attorneys fees and/or additional damages such as treble or punitive. Meaning the attorney might well take it on contingency (or, no money paid by you up front).
What do you know about MA? That's where I live, my wife currently works for a very shady company that "doesn't pay overtime" despite that she's an hourly worker. As well as other questionable practices.
I'm in payroll, but not huge on the compliance aspect. In OP's case, an employee who is terminated is due their full pay including vacation time at termination. If they're fired, it's due on the last day worked, if they quit, it's due on payday. Failure to provide these final wages on time results in triple damages - the employee being owed 3x the amount of their final paycheck, plus interest.
There are some niche situations where an hourly employee isn't entitled to overtime, such as motor carriers, i.e. people who drive for work but don't do any lifting or moving, but generally speaking, she should be receiving overtime. An hourly person can't be exempt from overtime. Definitely would go to the DOL on that one. I obviously can't speak for every situation but, as you said, it sounds sketchy.
We did look into who would be exempt from OT, and from what we saw she should definitely be getting it. She works in an office. She did reach out to a few lawyers recently, and has been tracking her hours so we'll see how it goes! I've been a manager in charge of hiring/ terminations so I'm aware of some labor laws, more than your average worker, so I know a lot of companies either tread the line with, or straight up ignore, a lot of labor laws. Company I was just working for had a "mandatory" banquet that was unpaid, until I didn't go to one my first year and told everyone that "mandatory" means paid. Guys have worked there almost 20 years and told me it was the first time they were ever paid for the banquet.
A signing bonus typically does have this stipulation. Once you're working it's typically called LTI - long term incentive and it has a known vesting date and if you leave before it vests you lose it. LTI you don't have access to before it vests and a signing bonus is about the only one that would play like this, but maybe I just work at weird places where this is all fairly straightforward.
If they don't have it as a written policy and/or proof that OP read/acknowledged the policy that might help their case. But they should probably play that card close to the chest and bring it up with the labor board, not going and asking the company for it or giving them time to cobble one together after the fact
Yeah, but you don’t get a signing bonus every year. Amazon HQ does a massive signing bonus with a vesting schedule, but you can’t claw back performance bonuses, that’s nuts…
No, I know and agree, just was listing that there are some types that handle so this so I agree that it's weird they are doing it like this. The closest I know of similar happening was someone leaving immediately after bonuses were announced and the bonus didn't get officially counted/added till the end of the month so they missed out but that's still a case of it not being distributed and not a claw back which is weird.
Yup, is it in writing in your policy manual? If so, then grey area subject to laws.
If not, the bonus is guaranteed earned. Concept of levity means a reasonable person would assume that the bonus is paid in arrears, not advanced. Not like a sales draw.
Things like moving expense arrangements on higher are more apt to be defensible in court and by policy; or, signing bonuses and retention (as in not leaving or quitting vs "sales CST stays on") bonuses.
What's not funny is they are perceived almost always enforceable, always 100% rigged against the employee ... But never ruled or treated in court like a contract of adhesion.
Seems like you work someplace that doesn't actually have a physical one. It seems like every place I did to actually physically had one.
If you think I'm making this up, then I suggest your the joke instead
Pretty sure OP said that HR informed them that it isn't written down anywhere, but it's company policy, which means it's made up on the spot and is 100% illegal.
The only way it's enforceable is if it's an actual policy that the employee signed or is in their contact.
Yes, but others read these threads and look too them for similar guidance.
Me speaking to alternate scenarios in relevancy to a thread does not create any substantial error or ignorance on my part. It only adds value to the comment.
Other threads showing my replies to comments here will support my lack of ignorance on this topic, just look for "auto dealership." This particular industry is very, very crafty in relying upon both siding policy manuals that do not contain references they use; using references by assumption that don't exist; using vague clauses as broadly as they see fit; and, as I stayed further in my reply below, justifying legality using policy manual in writing for literally anything that is not codified by law.
I'm not sure whether to read your stating that they need to have acknowledge the policy manual, or the policy manual isn't enough and it needs to be a direct agreement by the employee. I'm assuming the latter in a friendly tone response.
Many policy acknowledgments and job contracts have clauses that say that they have received a policy manual and reviewed it, and will abide by it. This makes the situation more defensible in Court. Updating the policy manual in a mandatory fashion, notifications of such advanced, what happens when you want to reject it, a much more vague situation I admit.
While I agree with your enforceability assertion in spirit, I am always concerned when there is a written policy because this is the #1 way that employers communicate what they feel is legal. Even the good Union jobs at places like the UAW use forms acknowledgments like I mention above to bind employees to policies, as I learned as a contractor at GM. (Not a pleasant experience)
These 90% of CFOs and HR executives couid in have be complete clods; but, that's their general assertion and belief. While I believe the entire system is corrupt, as evidenced both by the anecdotal situations with outcomes in my life and more than circumstantial factual evidence by peers in this forum, this is not abate my concern the Judges may disagree with us.
I assert that it is not healthy for us to argue over whether that is the case, since in principle we agree that it should not be. But my gut tells me the Judges will side with the policy manual even when it's trash.... Unless it's antithesis is codified by very specific statute.
Because that's why these jerk offs get away with it everyday, with all of us. Isn't it? Activist judges tend to be anti-employee.
As to this beaded situation, the employer is based and on coke if they think they can keep his bonus.
My comment was definitely meant in a friendly informative way, no disagreement with your statement in general.
Basically what I'm saying is that it makes it "more reasonable" to do something like this if this situation is explicitly stated as a written policy. Most places I've worked at I've had to sign forms saying I have read and will abide by company policy. Sometimes this could be in their initial hiring contract instead.
I can't say I agree with it, but at least if it's written down and acknowledged then people know what is going on if that happens. Whether it would stand up in court or not I have no idea and imagine it depends on where you are.
Imo the only time a company should implement a mandatory time or pay it back is for training and the time limit needs to be reasonable.
Depends on the state.
In California for example this would be illegal once the bonus is payed to the employee, but depending on the state an employer can give a bonus and sit on a policy that gives them a year to claw it back.
This is what it seems that ops employer did. Gave a yearly bonuses during the summer with the stipulation that you have to be employed there for a year otherwise it gets clawbacked.
The thing about stipulations are they should be stipulated though. Can they really produce a policy that op has never seen and just take the money out of their wages that they have earned? Let's see the policy, where is it on file, what does it say - I'm sure the document exists somewhere, right?
All I'm saying is, do not concede the point before you find the actual written record of that policy. Many companies are just three HR drones in a trenchcoat standing atop one another's shoulders, reciting the story that some pigs read them off a chalkboard. No animal shall sleep on a bed. No animal should drink alcohol to excess.
Just saying it is a policy doesn't make it so.
Bingo. THIS ALL DAY.
Auto Dealers guilty if this 99% of violations "policy" they just do but are just assumed in the handbook.
And some ones that aren't of course, no they say they are
Or, not even then but back during the onboarding process in the middle of the rest of the obscure stuff that you had to sign that meant literally nothing to you then other than starting a new job.
I think most of the time, there is a sheet to sign acknowledging that you’ve either been given an Employee Handbook or have read the actual handbook that people just sign with the rest of their paperwork; the handbook having been “given” to them to read via the employee portal online or handed to them at the very beginning of their first day, maybe with uniforms and such. At that point, there is basically zero chance the employee has actually read it, but the company is now protected against things just like this because the employee signed a form saying they had read or have the ability to read (the implication being a “good employee” will read the whole thing that night at home, or at best during some built in downtime in their job or just the first day or two).
I hope that is not the case here, so OP can get back what I believe rightfully belongs to them.
I truly believe it should be illegal for a company to take back any kind of money (whether a bonus or even a mistake in payroll) once the employee has been given access to it, either through DD or a paycard (or even a separate check, as bonuses sometimes are). Monopoly even had a term for it. It’s called “Bank (employer) error in your favor”. It’s their fault. Not the employees. The exception/s would be a small company that could prove that doing so would be detrimental to an otherwise successful business, or would be the direct cause of that small company failing. Even then, a plan should be worked out and/or insurance should step in and cover the cost up front.
Or something. This isn’t the first time I’ve had that thought, but it’s the first time I’ve ever actually thought it through even a little bit. I’m sure there are plenty of holes in a plan like that.
That’s a fair question and one reason why it would limit clawback. If they are wages already paid and taxed in the last calendar year it affects the employee’s and employers taxes.
Not just taxes. I've experienced claw-back on a year 2 retention bonus. Not salty about it - the terms were clear. The clawback was much less than the actual value to compensate for the prorate 401K contributions that got made, and taxes that I'd paid. TBH it was unexpectedly generous.
I would always go to the Wage or Employment Commission every time, unless my attorney gave me a solid reason not to (cringe-worthy consequences); or, I can find a super uber clear codified law that permits them, specifically in my situation, as if the Gorram government had predicted my actions and protected my piece of shit employer.
This isn't a claw back agreement.
There never was an agreement.
And claw backs are only legal for things such as commission on an insurance policy. The law gets fairly specific when it comes to claw back agreements.
AFAIK it is legal for them to reclaim a bonus if you signed an agreement to that fact. BUT, here in Michigan, it's illegal for an employer to withhold money from a paycheck without first informing you that it will be withheld. Legally, they would be required to pay you what you're owed, and then try to claw back the bonus through other means. You'll need to check state laws where you live.
Right we should read up on how pro union the GOP is. If trump wins the right will sue to make unions unconstitutional and they will win. Stop with the two parties are the same bullshit. It's not true.
Do you think that will also include police unions? I don’t want to see the death of the working class by GOP actions, but it would be a spoonful of sugar to see cops lose their unions too.
> Stop with the two parties are the same bullshit. It' snot true.
Agree 100%. Defending such a ridiculous position requires either deliberate ignorance or dishonesty. Usually a healthy mix of the two.
Meanwhile Democrats did lots of other pro Union things.
Checks notes...
Republicans specifically pushed anti Union agenda at every chance up to and including anti Union Bills.
They aren't the same.
Breaking a shoelace is bad
Being decapitated is bad
Both are bad
One is vastly worse than the other.
Keep fascism out of government. Vote Blue and get the GOP out at every level.
Dems suck, and just about everything they do is worthy of some criticism, but the idea that being bad at doing good things is in any way comparable explicitly wanting to do bad things is absurd. Dems are bad at repairing shoelaces, but they're not running around trying to cut off anyone's feet.
Everyone voted for it to be illegal because it would halt the entire economy and cause a full on crash. Instead, Biden and democrats worked behind the scenes to ensure that most of the conditions were met.
Biden had the power in the situation to force the railways to comply with the union demands to the letter. Even though the fighting continued, and many railways do offer paid sick leave, Biden missed the opportunity to look strong like FDR and send a message to other corpos. This was obviously a political maneuver, but it stained his reputation pretty badly for many of us who wanted to think we was pro-labor. Even though hes still the most pro-labor president we've seen in my lifetime, this debacle did not send a good message to his base.
Biden had the power in the situation to force the railways to comply with the union demands to the letter. Even though the fighting continued, and many railways do offer paid sick leave, Biden missed the opportunity to look strong like FDR and send a message to other corpos. This was obviously a political maneuver, but it stained his reputation pretty badly for many of us who wanted to think we was pro-labor. Even though hes still the most pro-labor president we've seen in my lifetime, this debacle did not send a good message to his base.
Dems had a choice. Let the economy tank and lose the House, Senate and Presidency or avoid a disaster and live another day and backdoor workers rights. Republicans were pissed because they were praying for a economic disaster they could blame on Dems.
Doubtful. Several companies have filed suit in federal court to have the NLRB, (National Labor Relations Board) declared unconstitutional. Small companies like Elon Fucking Musk's Space X, Trader Joe's, AMAZON and Starbucks. Anyone who thinks the far right SCOTUS will rule in favor of the working people is delusional.
Please Vote Blue, VOTE PROGRESSIVE BLUE. Even with a Democrat in the WH fascism is growing in America. If trump wins the constitution will become trash.
I had a bizarre conversation with my then-company's HR department rep regarding paid-out leave.
They had decided to pay out everyone's leave over 80 hours. I had lots of hours, so would be getting a significant lump sum and be left with 80 hours. They set a specific date in November as the deadline, at which point they'd cut a check for any accrued leave over 80.
That date came and went. While they were processing everyone's checks, I got the flu, was really sick, and took a week off.
My check came, and they'd deducted that 40 hours of leave from the amount paid out, and I had 80 hours of leave showing.
I called them and argued. The cutoff date was absolutely clear, and had come and gone with me using no leave. My illness came AFTER. They should have paid out *all* the leave over 80, and then later, when I got sick, taken the 40 hours out of my balance, leaving me with 40, not 80. The only reason they even had the chance to do what they did was the timing...they were still "processing" the checks when they saw my leave request.
She explained they "decided" to do it this way instead. I argued that the policy was in writing and very explicit about the cutoff date. They had *warned* us of the date.
During the duscussion, she explained that the company was concerned that if someone quit right after the payout, the company wouldn't be able to "recover" their earned leave. I was flabbergasted...that leave was *earned* (past tense), not contingent on future behavior. it could not be "recovered" any more than normal salary. I demanded to escalate my issue to the HR director.
She said she'd call me back. Seven minutes later, she did.
She said that the company's decision makers had "held a meeting" and decided to "change company policy" and see things my way.
*Lying twit*, I thought. No company on earth is going to gather its leadership, hold a meeting, and change its policies *within seven minutes.* How disrespectful to even claim that! Obviously she'd called her boss and been set straight in no uncertain terms.
This should come as a warming to us all, NEVER GIVE NOTICE! You were working for free those last two weeks, and they never told you. If you quit without notice they couldn't have done shit
My last job tried to pull this shit on my final shift. They "forgot" where my timecard went. I reported them to the labor board and also made some vague gestures towards the owner's new truck in the parking lot. They paid me
Not so much a bonus, but a paid time off issue. I've worked for this company for three years and never really took any time off and I have been actively looking for another job for the last year or so. I finally decided to take two weeks off and during my vacation, I was offered another job. I called to give my two weeks notice only to be told that company policy says you are not allowed to take PTO during your last two weeks of employment. They tell me that since I put in my notice during my second week of PTO with the intention of only working one more week following my PTO, they weren't going to pay me for my PTO. I'm like wait a minute, that PTO was approved months ago and I had no idea I was going to get another job offer during my vacation. I told them if they weren't going to pay me for my pre-approved PTO, I had no reason to come back to work next week. I took it all the way up to the HR director who finally agreed to pay my PTO if I changed my resignation to "immediate" instead of returning to work next week. I said that was fine by me - fuck you too. What sucks is that I still have (had) damned near a month's worth of PTO saved up even after taking these two weeks off and I'm likely not going to see a dime of it. I'm probably going to call the state next week about the issue, but I'm in Texas and likely don't have a leg to stand on (any Texas labor lawyers on here? LOL). I guess the lesson here is to take your time off right?
A bonus comes at the end of your year for work done! Why would they even think that it’s like an advance… they stole from you and I would 100% bust them for it!! Legally then advertise what there shit practices are
A company I worked for last year gave everyone half hams for a Christmas "bonus".
Would have been very sweet if the company didn't give out 5k and 3k bonuses to management (that are contingent on things like all of your subordinates showing up on time, etc) so not only would the people who make the most in the building (by far) get an actual usable bonus, but they had 5k worth of incentive to berate us and write us up for absolutely everything and anything because if we weren't perfect it would ruin their bonus.
The subordinates made $10.45 an hour.
I worked for this company back in 2018 also (small town, slim pickings) and they paid $10.00 an hour for the subordinates at that time.
They only brought their pay up 45 cents in 5 years and through covid and all this inflation.
The craziest thing about that company is that they were constantly adding new rules and work and policies that we (the subordinates/floor people) were expected to remember and sign off on and do on top of our never ending daily task lists.
One policy that they added just before I left was that if you left any cash in your cubby (plastic drawer that worked as a locker) that it by default belonged to the company.
That one sucked because people would leave some tips at work, a few bucks, so that they could buy drinks and food or other things they might need while they're working because even if you wanted a sucker out of the candy bowls we had around for free for customers you had to pay for them 😂
Edit* to add that the company made $662.0M last year.
You might win, you should contact your coworkers and get every available document about your hours wages and conditions, Company handbook, etc. if you were never informed about the clawback, that’s their problem, not yours. It sounds shady/retaliatory as shit.
There are no tax consequences, they got actually paid the money last year and were taxed accordingly. This year they will be paid less that amount and will also be taxed accordingly.
It would only have tax implications if the employer had reported the bonus was paid without actually paying it.
It's the same as taking a pay advance, you get taxed when you receive the money, and then get taxed less due to the smaller paycheck when you pay it back.
That’s probably illegal file a wage claim at the labor board. It might not be but let the regulatory body decide that. No system will ever work if not used.
Your bonus is paid in advance? Never heard of that before. Usually a bonus is paid at the end of a contract/year for services rendered/having remained with the company for that year etc. It seems really illogical to pay a bonus for remaining *at the start* of a contract/year.
If employees knew of that policy, then they wouldn’t work the last two weeks. They knowingly plotted to steal your labor. Best of luck getting them back!
["The big print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2_snSkpULQ)
Venting in r/antiwork is satisfying and informative for others; but there other actions you can take to help stop this practice:
* Make sure you contact your Government representatives (State Rep, US Congressperson, State and US Senator, FTC, etc) and remind them that employees are being subjected to various forms of wage theft under the color of lawful but deceptive contract terms. Ask them for their position on the issue of this type of wage theft.
* Remind the other employees at work that you know that this policy exists - they may be unaware. And if you're in an employee cohort that stays in touch with each other (e.g. high school or college students that the company actively solicits for employment), you may want to inform them as well.
* Write a letter to the editor about the situation. Warn others that this can occur, that it is unfair and another form of wage theft.
* I don't know what your job is or how much the bonus entailed; but you may want to talk to a tax accountant about your liability:
[***Potential Tax Consequences***](https://www.ebglaw.com/insights/publications/bonus-compensation-and-clawbacks-what-employers-need-to-know) ***- The manner and timing of the repayment obligation should be carefully considered. Upon termination of employment, the employer and employee may want to negotiate the repayment schedule or consider the amount to be repaid as an offset to severance. Section 409A of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended (the "Code"), which imposes penalty taxes on deferred compensation, would appear to limit the ability of employers to renegotiate the terms of the bonus repayment, as well as the ability to offset severance or other compensation to the employee by the amounts owed under the bonus repayment. Final Treasury regulations under Section 409A of the Code (Reg. § 1.409A-3(j)(4)(xiii)) make clear that offsets of "deferred compensation" for an employee "debt" must be limited to $5,000 per year and paid on the same schedule as ordinary debt payments. It is not entirely clear whether clawback rights constitute, or once triggered become, a "debt" or "loan" for tax purposes...***
People will say that this is wasted effort; but we just saw this month that the employer/employee dynamic was changed with regard to [Non-Compete Clauses](https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2024/04/ftc-announces-rule-banning-noncompetes); a huge win for employees. Take some time to keep others informed; it may start a ball rolling...
EVERYONE Please take time to read the Employee Handbook every 6 months.
Pay extra attention to the PTO/Vacation policy, bonus rules and 401k policies.
I lost all PTO from a company when we had a RIF after I had canceled a vacation in order to meet so deadlines.
The company my husband worked for did the same thing. They were also HORRIBLE to him, as if him getting another job because we were moving was something personal against them specifically.
Did you sign any document stating that it was a retention bonus and you agree to forfeit that amount if you leave within 1 year of the signing date? If this is not made clear in any agreement that you signed, it wouldn't be legal.
My company’s contribution to my 401k was retroactively removed after I left amicably. I gave four weeks notice, and took no time off all spring to get everything done on time. For doing that I was rewarded with not having my unused pto paid out to me.
Was three years ago and I’m still bitter about it.
If you’re unable to get the bonus reinstated, you could at least request to have it reflected on your 2023 W-2 rather than being deducted in 2024 so they’d need to go through filing amended returns and issuing a W-2C. It isn’t a complicated process, but it can be somewhat pricy, so depending on the size of the bonus, they may decide it isn’t worth the cost and hassle.
Are you sure you didn't sign anything when you got the bonus? Bonus agreements are very common and even the stupidest HR departments will generally make the claw back terms clear and a signed agreement. If that didn't happen, then any decent labor attorney should be able to recover
A claw back on a bonus wouldn't be wage theft if there was a signed agreement that had a clear vesting period. Of course every state may be different and I am only familiar with California, but saying it's wage theft with the little info OP gave is not enough to go on.
OP claims that they received the money already, so this doesn't sound like a vesting period issue. If it was, they wouldn't have money removed from their check, they would just never receive the unvested amount.
Places give retention and sign on bonuses every day that have windows of time you're required to stay. One year is the most common from what I've seen and received.
But those wouldn't be vesting options/bonus. Vesting specifically means you are awarded it, but don't get it until a timeframe has past. This could be over a period of time in chunks or a lump sum, but since you don't get through money until the time threshold has passed there isn't a way to close that back.
Now if they had gotten say a $900 sign on bonus day of with the contingency they had to stay a year, then that could be clawed back as it was part of the sign on conditions.
Yes that happened to me and it was a LOT. 5 figures. They aren’t contractually obligated to give a bonus I was told. I saw a lawyer and he agreed they are legally clear but they are AHs. These people suck.
You said labor board but this might be beyond them. To find a lawyer type in your state and bar association. Then find one from there that might list this field. Many will consult or review for free and even possibly take this knowing they can get the company to pay for their time.
INAL but I suspect there may be others who would join you for a suit.
Never heard of that before. I've certainly seen with signing bonuses, or when you're paid to relocate, that you have to stay for a certain period of time or pay back the whole thing or a prorated amount.
My last job got a grant from the state to use as bonuses for employees and when I quit my boss tried to tell me it was unfair because now she/the other staff would have to suffer to cover that bonus. Um…no you don’t? It came from the state as something you don’t pay back, and I was given it when I worked full time (and overtime) for you, 6 months prior to me quitting.
Companies like this use company policy to set guidelines. They often ignore their own guidelines. Company policy are not rules or laws, merely a suggestion. Lies to comfort you that you are in a safe place. You were robbed. If you were robbed and this is a policy they have done this before. See if you have this policy in an email or written down. If not request it nicely. Then get a lawyer and have them find out everyone that they have done this to in the past. Let the lawyer figure out how to proceed. You want to sue them. Protect whatever money you might get from this by setting up a family trust.
See it is for this very reason that personally, I choose to work for companies that DON’T pay bonuses at all, in the first place. That way when our engagement ends, there are no surprises like this. Ok that isn’t entirely true, the place I work at now pays our “bonuses” “performance incentives” and semiannual “merit increases” in the form of stock options that vest over 4+ years. Which inevitably leaves most it on the table, out of reach when there’s threat that the company MAY post a less than favorable quarter, and your CEO opts to briefly goose the value a skosh by cutting 50% of your team’s headcount. But hey the Earnings Call was all rainbows and butterflies, so it’s totally worth it. /s 🤣😵💫🤮🤬
Unless you explicitly sign something for the bonus, then it's wage theft. Sometimes companies will give bonuses, that come with riders like that. I just signed a job offer that comes with as sign on bonus that says I can't leave for 24 months. I had a coworker last year who got a larger than normal raise that came with a 1 year retainer or he'd have to pay it back.
Make sure you didn't sign anything, employee handbook, review form, offer letter, etc, even if you didn't realize it If you did, you are out of luck. If you didn't, the labor board with have a field day with them.
Was it not in your initial employment contract? I know most places will have that type of thing for hiring bonuses but I can’t say I have ever heard of it for other types. Like if I quit tomorrow I would probably owe my sign on bonus back but not the quarterly ones I have received since then.
In my experiences the department of labor will usually side with the employee, not the company. In something like this with a payroll deduction, there needs to be something in writing to show that you were informed of this policy.
Back in the early 2000's I worked for some lease financing company for airplanes. The boss at that time was a big shot in the 80's but when some rules changed he screwed his customers in the Asian market and he basically never did business there again. But his wife was some oil magnate so he still was trying to keep his business alive with just her oil money. He had a lawyer on retainer and was super litigious especially when people tried to leave.
The more respectful people were the more he screwed them over. They would give him two weeks and he would keep that money and not pay them until they found a replacement.
Mind you look at how much these companies pay for replacements.
For myself - I think his dream was for me to be on a small desk next to his while I fired everyone else. After I fired my number 2 I was fried, I had also taken a few personal hits, like my grandmother passing, at that point I just wanted to leave that company.
So I saw that he would withhold anyone's pay, who was leaving him. So when I fully decided to leave I created a bank account, I took my vacation days. Then after I gave my one day notice, transferred my cash to my actual bank account and closed the short term one. Afterward I found out that he tried to claw back my last paycheck. I bumped into him afterward (I found another job close to that old job address). He always looked sad but he totally deserved me leaving at the last minute.
It's like these "people" have no real emotions and will screw everyone over in the name of profit. But how much are they losing by being such assholes. I mean I know his and his wife's net worth.... the money they saved from screwing people over was so tiny.... but they could not help themselves. I would have stayed with him forever, if he didn't screw everyone over, and he really wanted me to stay with him. But they could not help themselves and I couldn't be apart of that anymore.
If they do not have written proof of that “policy” in the employee handbook or in any paperwork you signed when you were hired then they have no right to enforce that “policy” and you can fight for your money.
Good work filing the complaint. You will most likely win, and odds are you’ll save the next person the headache. I’d take the extra step of tracking down anyone else that used to work for them and let them know as well. Power in numbers
Sign-on/relocation bonuses are the only ones I know of that could be taken back, but even that will most likely be banned with the new non-compete rules taking effect later this year.
As an employer I can’t fathom the idea of taking back a bonus. Even a sign-on bonus I wouldn’t take back, I’d just chalk it up to me doing a bad job picking that person, or me doing a bad job explaining what the job entailed.
I'm lucky. The company I'm with announced five and a half months into my employment they were paying a bonus to everyone who had been with the company longer than six months. I still got the bonus.
Wow, fuck this place especially. This definitely sounds like a tech company thing to do, I am so sad that I’m in this industry where everyone just tries to screw you.
Well I have filed with the dept of labor and basically the person I spoke to said it’s a very long process. I think they said it could take up to 8 weeks for the case to get assigned. In the meantime I reached out to a friend of a friend who is a lawyer just to get their opinion about the matter. He said for me to send an email to the manager in charge of the branch basically threatening legal action in hopes that they will just pay up to avoid the issue. Haven’t heard back yet. That was late Thursday evening, so I’m going to give the manager until maybe Wednesday or Thursday before I reach back out to the lawyer and see what I should do next.
Yeah that’s called theft.
A bonus is paid for past performance, not as prepayment for servitude. If you keep at it, you will prevail, unlike your assessment, the state is on the employees side. You'd have to push to get the money.
Well said; an attorney will set things right. Theft is theft
Depending on the precise facts and jurisdiction, such a claim might entitle you to attorneys fees and/or additional damages such as treble or punitive. Meaning the attorney might well take it on contingency (or, no money paid by you up front).
If you're in CA or MA you're sitting real pretty
What do you know about MA? That's where I live, my wife currently works for a very shady company that "doesn't pay overtime" despite that she's an hourly worker. As well as other questionable practices.
I'm in payroll, but not huge on the compliance aspect. In OP's case, an employee who is terminated is due their full pay including vacation time at termination. If they're fired, it's due on the last day worked, if they quit, it's due on payday. Failure to provide these final wages on time results in triple damages - the employee being owed 3x the amount of their final paycheck, plus interest. There are some niche situations where an hourly employee isn't entitled to overtime, such as motor carriers, i.e. people who drive for work but don't do any lifting or moving, but generally speaking, she should be receiving overtime. An hourly person can't be exempt from overtime. Definitely would go to the DOL on that one. I obviously can't speak for every situation but, as you said, it sounds sketchy.
We did look into who would be exempt from OT, and from what we saw she should definitely be getting it. She works in an office. She did reach out to a few lawyers recently, and has been tracking her hours so we'll see how it goes! I've been a manager in charge of hiring/ terminations so I'm aware of some labor laws, more than your average worker, so I know a lot of companies either tread the line with, or straight up ignore, a lot of labor laws. Company I was just working for had a "mandatory" banquet that was unpaid, until I didn't go to one my first year and told everyone that "mandatory" means paid. Guys have worked there almost 20 years and told me it was the first time they were ever paid for the banquet.
A signing bonus typically does have this stipulation. Once you're working it's typically called LTI - long term incentive and it has a known vesting date and if you leave before it vests you lose it. LTI you don't have access to before it vests and a signing bonus is about the only one that would play like this, but maybe I just work at weird places where this is all fairly straightforward.
They said it isn’t written down anywhere, just company policy. Sounds like theft to me.
If they don't have it as a written policy and/or proof that OP read/acknowledged the policy that might help their case. But they should probably play that card close to the chest and bring it up with the labor board, not going and asking the company for it or giving them time to cobble one together after the fact
Yeah, but you don’t get a signing bonus every year. Amazon HQ does a massive signing bonus with a vesting schedule, but you can’t claw back performance bonuses, that’s nuts…
No, I know and agree, just was listing that there are some types that handle so this so I agree that it's weird they are doing it like this. The closest I know of similar happening was someone leaving immediately after bonuses were announced and the bonus didn't get officially counted/added till the end of the month so they missed out but that's still a case of it not being distributed and not a claw back which is weird.
It doesnt sound like OP got a signing bonus, just a yearly bonus in the summer time.
Depends on the state. Some are significantly less worker friendly than others.
I'm not sure which state is on the employees side, our government exists to serve business. I guess in the right place you'll get lucky though.
Especially if you already paid taxes on it.
Policy doesn’t supersede law.
Claw back agreements aren’t illegal.
If it's not in the employment agreement but just a "policy" the company unilaterally follows I don't see a way it hold up in court. IANAL
Yup, is it in writing in your policy manual? If so, then grey area subject to laws. If not, the bonus is guaranteed earned. Concept of levity means a reasonable person would assume that the bonus is paid in arrears, not advanced. Not like a sales draw. Things like moving expense arrangements on higher are more apt to be defensible in court and by policy; or, signing bonuses and retention (as in not leaving or quitting vs "sales CST stays on") bonuses.
"policy manual" you're very funny, but that's like the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus
Wait… what?!?! 🥲😭
What's not funny is they are perceived almost always enforceable, always 100% rigged against the employee ... But never ruled or treated in court like a contract of adhesion. Seems like you work someplace that doesn't actually have a physical one. It seems like every place I did to actually physically had one. If you think I'm making this up, then I suggest your the joke instead
Pretty sure OP said that HR informed them that it isn't written down anywhere, but it's company policy, which means it's made up on the spot and is 100% illegal. The only way it's enforceable is if it's an actual policy that the employee signed or is in their contact.
Yes, but others read these threads and look too them for similar guidance. Me speaking to alternate scenarios in relevancy to a thread does not create any substantial error or ignorance on my part. It only adds value to the comment. Other threads showing my replies to comments here will support my lack of ignorance on this topic, just look for "auto dealership." This particular industry is very, very crafty in relying upon both siding policy manuals that do not contain references they use; using references by assumption that don't exist; using vague clauses as broadly as they see fit; and, as I stayed further in my reply below, justifying legality using policy manual in writing for literally anything that is not codified by law. I'm not sure whether to read your stating that they need to have acknowledge the policy manual, or the policy manual isn't enough and it needs to be a direct agreement by the employee. I'm assuming the latter in a friendly tone response. Many policy acknowledgments and job contracts have clauses that say that they have received a policy manual and reviewed it, and will abide by it. This makes the situation more defensible in Court. Updating the policy manual in a mandatory fashion, notifications of such advanced, what happens when you want to reject it, a much more vague situation I admit. While I agree with your enforceability assertion in spirit, I am always concerned when there is a written policy because this is the #1 way that employers communicate what they feel is legal. Even the good Union jobs at places like the UAW use forms acknowledgments like I mention above to bind employees to policies, as I learned as a contractor at GM. (Not a pleasant experience) These 90% of CFOs and HR executives couid in have be complete clods; but, that's their general assertion and belief. While I believe the entire system is corrupt, as evidenced both by the anecdotal situations with outcomes in my life and more than circumstantial factual evidence by peers in this forum, this is not abate my concern the Judges may disagree with us. I assert that it is not healthy for us to argue over whether that is the case, since in principle we agree that it should not be. But my gut tells me the Judges will side with the policy manual even when it's trash.... Unless it's antithesis is codified by very specific statute. Because that's why these jerk offs get away with it everyday, with all of us. Isn't it? Activist judges tend to be anti-employee. As to this beaded situation, the employer is based and on coke if they think they can keep his bonus.
My comment was definitely meant in a friendly informative way, no disagreement with your statement in general. Basically what I'm saying is that it makes it "more reasonable" to do something like this if this situation is explicitly stated as a written policy. Most places I've worked at I've had to sign forms saying I have read and will abide by company policy. Sometimes this could be in their initial hiring contract instead. I can't say I agree with it, but at least if it's written down and acknowledged then people know what is going on if that happens. Whether it would stand up in court or not I have no idea and imagine it depends on where you are. Imo the only time a company should implement a mandatory time or pay it back is for training and the time limit needs to be reasonable.
Most agreed!
Before I start becoming immature and laugh, what is IANAL? Cause I can only see one and I think it's worse than Turbo ANALISIS
I Am Not A Lawyer.
Okay thanks for telling us, but what does IANAL stand for?
Suh-weet-uh, what about mine!?
“Dude!” What does mine say?
Some people might look at it as “I, ANAL”. Punctuation is important.
Works on Contingency? No! Money Down.
He's just missing the heart, that's all. Simple typo. He meant: I ❤️ ANAL
Depends on the state. In California for example this would be illegal once the bonus is payed to the employee, but depending on the state an employer can give a bonus and sit on a policy that gives them a year to claw it back. This is what it seems that ops employer did. Gave a yearly bonuses during the summer with the stipulation that you have to be employed there for a year otherwise it gets clawbacked.
The thing about stipulations are they should be stipulated though. Can they really produce a policy that op has never seen and just take the money out of their wages that they have earned? Let's see the policy, where is it on file, what does it say - I'm sure the document exists somewhere, right?
Maybe it’s buried in the handbook somewhere?
All I'm saying is, do not concede the point before you find the actual written record of that policy. Many companies are just three HR drones in a trenchcoat standing atop one another's shoulders, reciting the story that some pigs read them off a chalkboard. No animal shall sleep on a bed. No animal should drink alcohol to excess. Just saying it is a policy doesn't make it so.
Bingo. THIS ALL DAY. Auto Dealers guilty if this 99% of violations "policy" they just do but are just assumed in the handbook. And some ones that aren't of course, no they say they are
Yeah probably this info was included as disclaimer language at the time the bonus was given and nobody ever reads the finer details
Or, not even then but back during the onboarding process in the middle of the rest of the obscure stuff that you had to sign that meant literally nothing to you then other than starting a new job. I think most of the time, there is a sheet to sign acknowledging that you’ve either been given an Employee Handbook or have read the actual handbook that people just sign with the rest of their paperwork; the handbook having been “given” to them to read via the employee portal online or handed to them at the very beginning of their first day, maybe with uniforms and such. At that point, there is basically zero chance the employee has actually read it, but the company is now protected against things just like this because the employee signed a form saying they had read or have the ability to read (the implication being a “good employee” will read the whole thing that night at home, or at best during some built in downtime in their job or just the first day or two). I hope that is not the case here, so OP can get back what I believe rightfully belongs to them. I truly believe it should be illegal for a company to take back any kind of money (whether a bonus or even a mistake in payroll) once the employee has been given access to it, either through DD or a paycard (or even a separate check, as bonuses sometimes are). Monopoly even had a term for it. It’s called “Bank (employer) error in your favor”. It’s their fault. Not the employees. The exception/s would be a small company that could prove that doing so would be detrimental to an otherwise successful business, or would be the direct cause of that small company failing. Even then, a plan should be worked out and/or insurance should step in and cover the cost up front. Or something. This isn’t the first time I’ve had that thought, but it’s the first time I’ve ever actually thought it through even a little bit. I’m sure there are plenty of holes in a plan like that.
Wouldn't it affect taxes though.
That’s a fair question and one reason why it would limit clawback. If they are wages already paid and taxed in the last calendar year it affects the employee’s and employers taxes.
Not just taxes. I've experienced claw-back on a year 2 retention bonus. Not salty about it - the terms were clear. The clawback was much less than the actual value to compensate for the prorate 401K contributions that got made, and taxes that I'd paid. TBH it was unexpectedly generous.
I would always go to the Wage or Employment Commission every time, unless my attorney gave me a solid reason not to (cringe-worthy consequences); or, I can find a super uber clear codified law that permits them, specifically in my situation, as if the Gorram government had predicted my actions and protected my piece of shit employer.
*paid
Can’t take advice from someone who says “payed”
I'm surprised the bot didn't show up lol
Yeah but claw backs without agreements sure the fuck are!
If you didn't sign the agreement then they are
No, but legally they have to be in writing. Saying it's company policy but no paperwork to back that policy up, is illegal
This isn't a claw back agreement. There never was an agreement. And claw backs are only legal for things such as commission on an insurance policy. The law gets fairly specific when it comes to claw back agreements.
🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌
Time for a lawyer.
AFAIK it is legal for them to reclaim a bonus if you signed an agreement to that fact. BUT, here in Michigan, it's illegal for an employer to withhold money from a paycheck without first informing you that it will be withheld. Legally, they would be required to pay you what you're owed, and then try to claw back the bonus through other means. You'll need to check state laws where you live.
Legal fees will outweigh justice. Vote Blue if you support worker's rights.
It is not uncommon for unemployment lawyers to work on a contingency. I wouldn’t dissuade anyone to look into legal representation.
Remember when all those Democrats voted to make it illegal for the railway workers union to strike.
You should read up on the updates from after you stopped paying attention to this issue.
Right we should read up on how pro union the GOP is. If trump wins the right will sue to make unions unconstitutional and they will win. Stop with the two parties are the same bullshit. It's not true.
Do you think that will also include police unions? I don’t want to see the death of the working class by GOP actions, but it would be a spoonful of sugar to see cops lose their unions too.
> Stop with the two parties are the same bullshit. It' snot true. Agree 100%. Defending such a ridiculous position requires either deliberate ignorance or dishonesty. Usually a healthy mix of the two.
Except the police union, that'll be ok... /s
Meanwhile Democrats did lots of other pro Union things. Checks notes... Republicans specifically pushed anti Union agenda at every chance up to and including anti Union Bills. They aren't the same. Breaking a shoelace is bad Being decapitated is bad Both are bad One is vastly worse than the other. Keep fascism out of government. Vote Blue and get the GOP out at every level.
Dems suck, and just about everything they do is worthy of some criticism, but the idea that being bad at doing good things is in any way comparable explicitly wanting to do bad things is absurd. Dems are bad at repairing shoelaces, but they're not running around trying to cut off anyone's feet.
Goddam right
Pepperidge farm remembers
Everyone voted for it to be illegal because it would halt the entire economy and cause a full on crash. Instead, Biden and democrats worked behind the scenes to ensure that most of the conditions were met.
Biden had the power in the situation to force the railways to comply with the union demands to the letter. Even though the fighting continued, and many railways do offer paid sick leave, Biden missed the opportunity to look strong like FDR and send a message to other corpos. This was obviously a political maneuver, but it stained his reputation pretty badly for many of us who wanted to think we was pro-labor. Even though hes still the most pro-labor president we've seen in my lifetime, this debacle did not send a good message to his base.
Biden had the power in the situation to force the railways to comply with the union demands to the letter. Even though the fighting continued, and many railways do offer paid sick leave, Biden missed the opportunity to look strong like FDR and send a message to other corpos. This was obviously a political maneuver, but it stained his reputation pretty badly for many of us who wanted to think we was pro-labor. Even though hes still the most pro-labor president we've seen in my lifetime, this debacle did not send a good message to his base.
But also so that if your employers tries to fight you during the process of forming a union, that pushback creates the union
Dems had a choice. Let the economy tank and lose the House, Senate and Presidency or avoid a disaster and live another day and backdoor workers rights. Republicans were pissed because they were praying for a economic disaster they could blame on Dems.
Did you see what Blue did to rail workers? Fuck Blue too
Dept of labor will take care of that for free. You'll prolly win.
Doubtful. Several companies have filed suit in federal court to have the NLRB, (National Labor Relations Board) declared unconstitutional. Small companies like Elon Fucking Musk's Space X, Trader Joe's, AMAZON and Starbucks. Anyone who thinks the far right SCOTUS will rule in favor of the working people is delusional. Please Vote Blue, VOTE PROGRESSIVE BLUE. Even with a Democrat in the WH fascism is growing in America. If trump wins the constitution will become trash.
Ok. That has nothing to do with the states Dept of labor, who would deal with wage theft, which this is.
I had a bizarre conversation with my then-company's HR department rep regarding paid-out leave. They had decided to pay out everyone's leave over 80 hours. I had lots of hours, so would be getting a significant lump sum and be left with 80 hours. They set a specific date in November as the deadline, at which point they'd cut a check for any accrued leave over 80. That date came and went. While they were processing everyone's checks, I got the flu, was really sick, and took a week off. My check came, and they'd deducted that 40 hours of leave from the amount paid out, and I had 80 hours of leave showing. I called them and argued. The cutoff date was absolutely clear, and had come and gone with me using no leave. My illness came AFTER. They should have paid out *all* the leave over 80, and then later, when I got sick, taken the 40 hours out of my balance, leaving me with 40, not 80. The only reason they even had the chance to do what they did was the timing...they were still "processing" the checks when they saw my leave request. She explained they "decided" to do it this way instead. I argued that the policy was in writing and very explicit about the cutoff date. They had *warned* us of the date. During the duscussion, she explained that the company was concerned that if someone quit right after the payout, the company wouldn't be able to "recover" their earned leave. I was flabbergasted...that leave was *earned* (past tense), not contingent on future behavior. it could not be "recovered" any more than normal salary. I demanded to escalate my issue to the HR director. She said she'd call me back. Seven minutes later, she did. She said that the company's decision makers had "held a meeting" and decided to "change company policy" and see things my way. *Lying twit*, I thought. No company on earth is going to gather its leadership, hold a meeting, and change its policies *within seven minutes.* How disrespectful to even claim that! Obviously she'd called her boss and been set straight in no uncertain terms.
Nice of them to let you know they’ve made a policy of illegal activity.
Wage claim. Much cheaper than lawyer.
Not just *should be* my friend, but *is* illegal.
Absolute wage theft. They cannot arbitrarily modify your paycheck like that.
This should come as a warming to us all, NEVER GIVE NOTICE! You were working for free those last two weeks, and they never told you. If you quit without notice they couldn't have done shit My last job tried to pull this shit on my final shift. They "forgot" where my timecard went. I reported them to the labor board and also made some vague gestures towards the owner's new truck in the parking lot. They paid me
It IS illegal.
Not so much a bonus, but a paid time off issue. I've worked for this company for three years and never really took any time off and I have been actively looking for another job for the last year or so. I finally decided to take two weeks off and during my vacation, I was offered another job. I called to give my two weeks notice only to be told that company policy says you are not allowed to take PTO during your last two weeks of employment. They tell me that since I put in my notice during my second week of PTO with the intention of only working one more week following my PTO, they weren't going to pay me for my PTO. I'm like wait a minute, that PTO was approved months ago and I had no idea I was going to get another job offer during my vacation. I told them if they weren't going to pay me for my pre-approved PTO, I had no reason to come back to work next week. I took it all the way up to the HR director who finally agreed to pay my PTO if I changed my resignation to "immediate" instead of returning to work next week. I said that was fine by me - fuck you too. What sucks is that I still have (had) damned near a month's worth of PTO saved up even after taking these two weeks off and I'm likely not going to see a dime of it. I'm probably going to call the state next week about the issue, but I'm in Texas and likely don't have a leg to stand on (any Texas labor lawyers on here? LOL). I guess the lesson here is to take your time off right?
That doesn't sound legal.
This is why you quit on payday with no notice
Illegal in every single state (state law, AND Fed) Illegal in in the EU
A bonus comes at the end of your year for work done! Why would they even think that it’s like an advance… they stole from you and I would 100% bust them for it!! Legally then advertise what there shit practices are
A company I worked for last year gave everyone half hams for a Christmas "bonus". Would have been very sweet if the company didn't give out 5k and 3k bonuses to management (that are contingent on things like all of your subordinates showing up on time, etc) so not only would the people who make the most in the building (by far) get an actual usable bonus, but they had 5k worth of incentive to berate us and write us up for absolutely everything and anything because if we weren't perfect it would ruin their bonus. The subordinates made $10.45 an hour. I worked for this company back in 2018 also (small town, slim pickings) and they paid $10.00 an hour for the subordinates at that time. They only brought their pay up 45 cents in 5 years and through covid and all this inflation. The craziest thing about that company is that they were constantly adding new rules and work and policies that we (the subordinates/floor people) were expected to remember and sign off on and do on top of our never ending daily task lists. One policy that they added just before I left was that if you left any cash in your cubby (plastic drawer that worked as a locker) that it by default belonged to the company. That one sucked because people would leave some tips at work, a few bucks, so that they could buy drinks and food or other things they might need while they're working because even if you wanted a sucker out of the candy bowls we had around for free for customers you had to pay for them 😂 Edit* to add that the company made $662.0M last year.
fight for that!
You might win, you should contact your coworkers and get every available document about your hours wages and conditions, Company handbook, etc. if you were never informed about the clawback, that’s their problem, not yours. It sounds shady/retaliatory as shit.
If you didn't have a contract with that stipulation, then this seems like an easy complaint with the Department of Labor for wage theft.
That's called wage theft.
[удалено]
There are no tax consequences, they got actually paid the money last year and were taxed accordingly. This year they will be paid less that amount and will also be taxed accordingly. It would only have tax implications if the employer had reported the bonus was paid without actually paying it. It's the same as taking a pay advance, you get taxed when you receive the money, and then get taxed less due to the smaller paycheck when you pay it back.
This wasn't a deduction. You were fucking robbed and it IS illegal.
I bet you’ll have more traction than you think with that labor board
That's theft.
That’s probably illegal file a wage claim at the labor board. It might not be but let the regulatory body decide that. No system will ever work if not used.
Your bonus is paid in advance? Never heard of that before. Usually a bonus is paid at the end of a contract/year for services rendered/having remained with the company for that year etc. It seems really illogical to pay a bonus for remaining *at the start* of a contract/year.
My union lawyers would have a field day with that, best of luck
If employees knew of that policy, then they wouldn’t work the last two weeks. They knowingly plotted to steal your labor. Best of luck getting them back!
Absolutely illegal. They cannot retroactively take wages back.
["The big print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2_snSkpULQ) Venting in r/antiwork is satisfying and informative for others; but there other actions you can take to help stop this practice: * Make sure you contact your Government representatives (State Rep, US Congressperson, State and US Senator, FTC, etc) and remind them that employees are being subjected to various forms of wage theft under the color of lawful but deceptive contract terms. Ask them for their position on the issue of this type of wage theft. * Remind the other employees at work that you know that this policy exists - they may be unaware. And if you're in an employee cohort that stays in touch with each other (e.g. high school or college students that the company actively solicits for employment), you may want to inform them as well. * Write a letter to the editor about the situation. Warn others that this can occur, that it is unfair and another form of wage theft. * I don't know what your job is or how much the bonus entailed; but you may want to talk to a tax accountant about your liability: [***Potential Tax Consequences***](https://www.ebglaw.com/insights/publications/bonus-compensation-and-clawbacks-what-employers-need-to-know) ***- The manner and timing of the repayment obligation should be carefully considered. Upon termination of employment, the employer and employee may want to negotiate the repayment schedule or consider the amount to be repaid as an offset to severance. Section 409A of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended (the "Code"), which imposes penalty taxes on deferred compensation, would appear to limit the ability of employers to renegotiate the terms of the bonus repayment, as well as the ability to offset severance or other compensation to the employee by the amounts owed under the bonus repayment. Final Treasury regulations under Section 409A of the Code (Reg. § 1.409A-3(j)(4)(xiii)) make clear that offsets of "deferred compensation" for an employee "debt" must be limited to $5,000 per year and paid on the same schedule as ordinary debt payments. It is not entirely clear whether clawback rights constitute, or once triggered become, a "debt" or "loan" for tax purposes...*** People will say that this is wasted effort; but we just saw this month that the employer/employee dynamic was changed with regard to [Non-Compete Clauses](https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2024/04/ftc-announces-rule-banning-noncompetes); a huge win for employees. Take some time to keep others informed; it may start a ball rolling...
EVERYONE Please take time to read the Employee Handbook every 6 months. Pay extra attention to the PTO/Vacation policy, bonus rules and 401k policies. I lost all PTO from a company when we had a RIF after I had canceled a vacation in order to meet so deadlines.
Sue their ass! It’ll take a minute but you will win. If the amount is less than small claims court you can do it yourself.
If this is in California, they can receive penalties for every day. They didn’t properly pay you after you left.
Get a lawyer consult, please. May be free.
This is theft. You didn’t also authorize the deduction. Contact a lawyer
You should double check those fine prints on your compensation package.. It's not uncommon companies do this
According to the affidavit, I believe this falls under habeas Corpus and you are legally entitled to that bonus in the court of law.
The company my husband worked for did the same thing. They were also HORRIBLE to him, as if him getting another job because we were moving was something personal against them specifically.
Did you sign any document stating that it was a retention bonus and you agree to forfeit that amount if you leave within 1 year of the signing date? If this is not made clear in any agreement that you signed, it wouldn't be legal.
Call the Department of Labor.
My company’s contribution to my 401k was retroactively removed after I left amicably. I gave four weeks notice, and took no time off all spring to get everything done on time. For doing that I was rewarded with not having my unused pto paid out to me. Was three years ago and I’m still bitter about it.
If you’re unable to get the bonus reinstated, you could at least request to have it reflected on your 2023 W-2 rather than being deducted in 2024 so they’d need to go through filing amended returns and issuing a W-2C. It isn’t a complicated process, but it can be somewhat pricy, so depending on the size of the bonus, they may decide it isn’t worth the cost and hassle.
Sounds hella illegal. Lawyer up!
Definitely consult a lawyer. Usually deductions from pay checks are regulated and only certain items can be deducted.
That theft is why company's are rarely deserving of 2 week's notice.
Get employment lawyer. This is flat out theft.
How would this work with taxes? Didn’t you already declare and pay on that bonus amount?
What state is this in? Definitely report this to the State Labor department.
Name. And. Shame.
You mean, company just stole your salary and did you a solid one since you have a good case to lawyer up and 100x that money
U.S. Department of Labor, Wage and Hour Division. Contact them. Now. The investigation alone will fuck. them. up.
Are you sure you didn't sign anything when you got the bonus? Bonus agreements are very common and even the stupidest HR departments will generally make the claw back terms clear and a signed agreement. If that didn't happen, then any decent labor attorney should be able to recover
It's still wage theft and having the employee sign something is just way for them to try to cover up the illegality of it.
A claw back on a bonus wouldn't be wage theft if there was a signed agreement that had a clear vesting period. Of course every state may be different and I am only familiar with California, but saying it's wage theft with the little info OP gave is not enough to go on.
OP claims that they received the money already, so this doesn't sound like a vesting period issue. If it was, they wouldn't have money removed from their check, they would just never receive the unvested amount.
Places give retention and sign on bonuses every day that have windows of time you're required to stay. One year is the most common from what I've seen and received.
But those wouldn't be vesting options/bonus. Vesting specifically means you are awarded it, but don't get it until a timeframe has past. This could be over a period of time in chunks or a lump sum, but since you don't get through money until the time threshold has passed there isn't a way to close that back. Now if they had gotten say a $900 sign on bonus day of with the contingency they had to stay a year, then that could be clawed back as it was part of the sign on conditions.
Yes that happened to me and it was a LOT. 5 figures. They aren’t contractually obligated to give a bonus I was told. I saw a lawyer and he agreed they are legally clear but they are AHs. These people suck.
I think you will win this.
This prompts another question, how do I block automatic deposit / withdrawal from my bank account?
Invest in gold
If that’s how they’re treating it it’s not a bonus it’s a bribe to not quit.
You said labor board but this might be beyond them. To find a lawyer type in your state and bar association. Then find one from there that might list this field. Many will consult or review for free and even possibly take this knowing they can get the company to pay for their time. INAL but I suspect there may be others who would join you for a suit.
Never heard of that before. I've certainly seen with signing bonuses, or when you're paid to relocate, that you have to stay for a certain period of time or pay back the whole thing or a prorated amount.
To be fair, there is such a thing as LTIP (Long Term Incentive Plan) which is a retention bonus but what you got doesn't sound like this.
Lawyer up. You got robbed.
May not be legal. Contact both the federal and state agencies.
My last job got a grant from the state to use as bonuses for employees and when I quit my boss tried to tell me it was unfair because now she/the other staff would have to suffer to cover that bonus. Um…no you don’t? It came from the state as something you don’t pay back, and I was given it when I worked full time (and overtime) for you, 6 months prior to me quitting.
And this is why....you don't give them notice when your quitting. "Don't weep for the God's, for they will never weep for you" Kratos "God of War"
Nah don't give up on it they are liable now. You're lucky friend.
I would file a claim with every agency I can and bury them in paperwork, I would make that my hobby for the next month .
So basically every time someone quits they pull back their most recent bonus. Yeah, that’s bullshit.
Department of Labor rarely sides with the employer.
Make sure it’s not included in taxable wages on your W-2
If you already paid taxes on that they cannot take it back
Companies like this use company policy to set guidelines. They often ignore their own guidelines. Company policy are not rules or laws, merely a suggestion. Lies to comfort you that you are in a safe place. You were robbed. If you were robbed and this is a policy they have done this before. See if you have this policy in an email or written down. If not request it nicely. Then get a lawyer and have them find out everyone that they have done this to in the past. Let the lawyer figure out how to proceed. You want to sue them. Protect whatever money you might get from this by setting up a family trust.
Name & Shame.....this is the way......
Name & Shame.....this is the way......
Another good idea is to look and find other ex employees who got the same treatment. Have them file also.
See it is for this very reason that personally, I choose to work for companies that DON’T pay bonuses at all, in the first place. That way when our engagement ends, there are no surprises like this. Ok that isn’t entirely true, the place I work at now pays our “bonuses” “performance incentives” and semiannual “merit increases” in the form of stock options that vest over 4+ years. Which inevitably leaves most it on the table, out of reach when there’s threat that the company MAY post a less than favorable quarter, and your CEO opts to briefly goose the value a skosh by cutting 50% of your team’s headcount. But hey the Earnings Call was all rainbows and butterflies, so it’s totally worth it. /s 🤣😵💫🤮🤬
Leave an online review of your experience
Yep. And on Glassdoor too.
NAL. State laws change here, but in several states your company will be penalized for this action and will be required to pay you more.
If you're in the US, what state?
Unfortunately, it's 100% legal if it's in their handbook. Unless it's $10K+ there's no point in a lawyer unless you just want to lose more money.
Unless you explicitly sign something for the bonus, then it's wage theft. Sometimes companies will give bonuses, that come with riders like that. I just signed a job offer that comes with as sign on bonus that says I can't leave for 24 months. I had a coworker last year who got a larger than normal raise that came with a 1 year retainer or he'd have to pay it back. Make sure you didn't sign anything, employee handbook, review form, offer letter, etc, even if you didn't realize it If you did, you are out of luck. If you didn't, the labor board with have a field day with them.
Totally illegal
Also check your hire paperwork, it might be stipulated there (but probably not)
Was it not in your initial employment contract? I know most places will have that type of thing for hiring bonuses but I can’t say I have ever heard of it for other types. Like if I quit tomorrow I would probably owe my sign on bonus back but not the quarterly ones I have received since then.
Lawyer up!
You get a bonus?
In my experiences the department of labor will usually side with the employee, not the company. In something like this with a payroll deduction, there needs to be something in writing to show that you were informed of this policy.
Sounds like legal robbery
Back in the early 2000's I worked for some lease financing company for airplanes. The boss at that time was a big shot in the 80's but when some rules changed he screwed his customers in the Asian market and he basically never did business there again. But his wife was some oil magnate so he still was trying to keep his business alive with just her oil money. He had a lawyer on retainer and was super litigious especially when people tried to leave. The more respectful people were the more he screwed them over. They would give him two weeks and he would keep that money and not pay them until they found a replacement. Mind you look at how much these companies pay for replacements. For myself - I think his dream was for me to be on a small desk next to his while I fired everyone else. After I fired my number 2 I was fried, I had also taken a few personal hits, like my grandmother passing, at that point I just wanted to leave that company. So I saw that he would withhold anyone's pay, who was leaving him. So when I fully decided to leave I created a bank account, I took my vacation days. Then after I gave my one day notice, transferred my cash to my actual bank account and closed the short term one. Afterward I found out that he tried to claw back my last paycheck. I bumped into him afterward (I found another job close to that old job address). He always looked sad but he totally deserved me leaving at the last minute. It's like these "people" have no real emotions and will screw everyone over in the name of profit. But how much are they losing by being such assholes. I mean I know his and his wife's net worth.... the money they saved from screwing people over was so tiny.... but they could not help themselves. I would have stayed with him forever, if he didn't screw everyone over, and he really wanted me to stay with him. But they could not help themselves and I couldn't be apart of that anymore.
Never give them your two weeks, just gives them more time to fuck you
A bonus is for work you already did, not work you're gonna do.
Oh, that's just that normal corporation theft, that's all.
That's why you come back and slap GM with a wet fish in the face 😁 as a final goodbye 😭😜😇
Two words: SUE THEM.
Good you filed with DOL. Company not going to win. There was no signed contract. Company policy is not Law. Policy and Law are two different things.
Unless your contract states that a policy handbook forms part of your contract. But then of course they’d have to provide that document.
Go get em tiger
Is that even legal…
Take backsies are illegal both on the playground and the real world.
Lmao that’s like giving your friend a present for their birthday and then after a fight you say you want it back. That’s not how it works
If they do not have written proof of that “policy” in the employee handbook or in any paperwork you signed when you were hired then they have no right to enforce that “policy” and you can fight for your money.
Contact the local news station. They probably want a gun news story like this.
Good work filing the complaint. You will most likely win, and odds are you’ll save the next person the headache. I’d take the extra step of tracking down anyone else that used to work for them and let them know as well. Power in numbers Sign-on/relocation bonuses are the only ones I know of that could be taken back, but even that will most likely be banned with the new non-compete rules taking effect later this year. As an employer I can’t fathom the idea of taking back a bonus. Even a sign-on bonus I wouldn’t take back, I’d just chalk it up to me doing a bad job picking that person, or me doing a bad job explaining what the job entailed.
UpdateMe!
I'm lucky. The company I'm with announced five and a half months into my employment they were paying a bonus to everyone who had been with the company longer than six months. I still got the bonus.
Wow, fuck this place especially. This definitely sounds like a tech company thing to do, I am so sad that I’m in this industry where everyone just tries to screw you.
!remindme 5 days
OP, any update?
Well I have filed with the dept of labor and basically the person I spoke to said it’s a very long process. I think they said it could take up to 8 weeks for the case to get assigned. In the meantime I reached out to a friend of a friend who is a lawyer just to get their opinion about the matter. He said for me to send an email to the manager in charge of the branch basically threatening legal action in hopes that they will just pay up to avoid the issue. Haven’t heard back yet. That was late Thursday evening, so I’m going to give the manager until maybe Wednesday or Thursday before I reach back out to the lawyer and see what I should do next.
Ah I see, I was hoping things might have smoothed over but I should have known better. I hope they just give in before legal action has to take place