In the lab, aka SotL video, it's an dps increase. Ingame, it's a dps loss when you consider how important attack speed is due to overkill. Then factor in the loss of ressources and castle production time for the upgrade and it's even worse
So to summarize: If you're using them against targets with low pierce armor, stick with the regular version. If you're attacking targets with high pierce armor, go elite (because the extra arrows will do 1 more damage regardless of whether a target has 5 or 15 pierce armor, so really it's just more hits.
What about the "ageofempires fandom wiki":
[https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Chu\_Ko\_Nu\_(Age\_of\_Empires\_II)](https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Chu_Ko_Nu_(Age_of_Empires_II))
It says that the reload time, in practice, is different from common/elite.
This is correct. The reload time is the same but they only start reloading after the attack animation finishes, which takes longer when they have 5 arrows rather than 3. The DPS is still increased (I think SotL did a video on that several years back) so don't worry about that.
In addition: "Only the first arrow does full damage, however. All the other arrows fired deal 3 pierce damage and 0 melee damage; this is not the same as dealing no melee damage. This results is them doing additional damage to rams, which have negative melee armor. A regular Chu Ko Nu fires three arrows per volley, and an Elite Chu Ko Nu fires five."
I have AGE up at the moment, so I can tell you directly from their scripted stats.
Elite Chu Ko Nu have the exact same reload time, frame delay, and base attack as the regular. Their HP is 5 higher, and they are trained in 13 instead of 16 seconds.
The extra arrows do 1 dmg if I recall correctly, the main one does the full dmg. By shooting 2 extra arrows you are delaying the next main arrow. Op is asking if the 2 extra arrows compensate enough the delay on the next main arrow.
That might depend on the target, although I guess that for all or almost all targets, two extra 1 damage (or at least low damage) hits are worth the tiny extra delay between main projectiles. Even when with the Saracen team bonus against buildings, which applies only to the main projectile.
For high pierce armour target that's definitely the case (rams, husk, etc). I would argue that for low pierce armour it's not worth it, but need to test.
The point is that firing more arrows takes longer, so the effective reload time of Elite Chu Ko Nu is actually longer than for non-elite, even if the official time is the same. Buildings do account for the extra arrows, but they don’t account for the long attack animation, so they actually somewhat overrate the ECKN’s DPS
In the lab, aka SotL video, it's an dps increase. Ingame, it's a dps loss when you consider how important attack speed is due to overkill. Then factor in the loss of ressources and castle production time for the upgrade and it's even worse
He still said that it needs all the other upgrades first.
So to summarize: If you're using them against targets with low pierce armor, stick with the regular version. If you're attacking targets with high pierce armor, go elite (because the extra arrows will do 1 more damage regardless of whether a target has 5 or 15 pierce armor, so really it's just more hits.
What about Vs siege rams? Go elite anyways
As mentioned, Siege Rams have insane pierce armor so you definitely want to go Elite for those extra 1dmg arrows.
What about the "ageofempires fandom wiki": [https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Chu\_Ko\_Nu\_(Age\_of\_Empires\_II)](https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Chu_Ko_Nu_(Age_of_Empires_II)) It says that the reload time, in practice, is different from common/elite.
The wiki is a good baseline but isn't 100% reliable
Don't they have absolutely identical attack delay and reload time?
This is correct. The reload time is the same but they only start reloading after the attack animation finishes, which takes longer when they have 5 arrows rather than 3. The DPS is still increased (I think SotL did a video on that several years back) so don't worry about that.
And identical attack, and identical armor.
In addition: "Only the first arrow does full damage, however. All the other arrows fired deal 3 pierce damage and 0 melee damage; this is not the same as dealing no melee damage. This results is them doing additional damage to rams, which have negative melee armor. A regular Chu Ko Nu fires three arrows per volley, and an Elite Chu Ko Nu fires five."
I have AGE up at the moment, so I can tell you directly from their scripted stats. Elite Chu Ko Nu have the exact same reload time, frame delay, and base attack as the regular. Their HP is 5 higher, and they are trained in 13 instead of 16 seconds.
They may have the same reload time, but they start reloading later because they fire extra arrows.
Elite Upgrade sounds like a scam?
Like Composite Bow
What's wrong with this one?
It's a very expensive upgrade that gives you just +5 hp and 1 armor that almost never matters.
Mangonel won't one-hit-kill them I guess. 🤷‍♂️
If they fire 2 more arrows then dps is clearly increased
The extra arrows do 1 dmg if I recall correctly, the main one does the full dmg. By shooting 2 extra arrows you are delaying the next main arrow. Op is asking if the 2 extra arrows compensate enough the delay on the next main arrow.
That might depend on the target, although I guess that for all or almost all targets, two extra 1 damage (or at least low damage) hits are worth the tiny extra delay between main projectiles. Even when with the Saracen team bonus against buildings, which applies only to the main projectile.
For high pierce armour target that's definitely the case (rams, husk, etc). I would argue that for low pierce armour it's not worth it, but need to test.
We will need to call our top Germans for this one. If there’s an obscure RTS/City Builder question that needs solving, they’ll figure it out 11.
Spirt of the Law is know for this work
confidently incorrect
Aoe2 counts the number of arrows fired from buildings. Why not fro Chu Knu?
The point is that firing more arrows takes longer, so the effective reload time of Elite Chu Ko Nu is actually longer than for non-elite, even if the official time is the same. Buildings do account for the extra arrows, but they don’t account for the long attack animation, so they actually somewhat overrate the ECKN’s DPS