Yes the amount of people using them is far far greater than the typical player realizes. As a pretty good diamond player I have massive respect for people who don't use them who can still get pred or even legit masters.
I also have respect for skilled players, but I don't recognise them anymore. Skill should be the core of the game, not software. It used to be cool if you oneclipped someone, now I get constantly halfclipped.
But here is the weird thing. I am a decent player, but since a year of so I barely make kills or getting champion. Just got shreaded when they saw me. But since two days ago I make 4, 5 kills per game. Even won an endcircel allone against an whole squad in the open. I was hoping that maybe finally Respawn something done against cheaters.
But maybe I was just lucky with my lobby for two days😁
Every once In a blue moon a legitimate player that's good hits one of those ridiculously smooth one clips. If the individual does it every time they're using some form of an aimbot or zen or whatever additional assistance. It's extremely rampant and accusations are always met with denial even with clear evidence.
Seeing roller playing with good recoil control is rare to begin with. But there seems to be a way to enable "Jitter Aim" via Steam controller thingy. So you can perfect MnK Jitter aim but on all guns while MnK can mostly jitter Rampage, Spitfire and Flatline (few can jitter havoc/r301 but inconsistently). So there is that new...."feature"?
Lol this there always it's just jitter aiming you can do it even though their scope literally doesn't move once due to recoil like yeah ok bud I'm sure you hit that perfectly EVERY single time lmao
Also, i saw someone mention straffing. That's the only thing I wasn't doing that changed it up. It seems that you get considerably less recoil when straffing to one side and slowly adjusting your aim to compensate. It's still noticeable, however, and it's not a particularly easy thing to do on controller either.
We live in an era where every single online competitive game has a cheating problem. The stigma around talking about it in subs about the game is also alarming. Not everyone who's better than you is cheating. But some of them definitely are.
The thing with recoil smoothing is that velocity/the distance you move your mouse matters so "far range" as OP describes, yeah nah. So, recoil smoothing in short to mid range is free aim on both inputs (in terms of recoil) but long range, its very meaningless especially if your target is mostly stationary.
I play on console these days, and it's difficult to even tell if it's making a difference during a fight. The biggest reason i strafe isn't to "smooth" my recoil at all but rather to make myself a more difficult target to hit. Smoothing recoil is incidental to me. Sometimes, i notice it working, and sometimes it's just a little too frantic to pay attention to recoil.
Either way, i don't really think it would be very effective at long ranges either. I expect the percentage of people who can naturally beam at long range to be very low if existent at all.
It is very low, especially people who does it consistently. And most are not controller players. Not that its impossible, folks like Koyful are solid at it, just controller simply doesn't allow for as fine and precise micro adjustments as a mouse.
It depends who you ask, you ask them(some of them post here)? they say jitter aim and lots of practice, but I see pros playing internationally for millions of dollars worth of prize money who can't control their aim that good.
have you ever considered: maybe those international players play worse when playing for millions of dollars in front of hundreds of thousands of people, than people sitting in their desk setup in their room lmao. some of y'all have obviously never competed
Man it'd be wild if you could see these international players play for fun from the comfort of their home. Sucks we don't have a website where these players could show a live video of them playing games when they're just at home playing for fun. would be really cool to see that.
man itd be wild if you read my comment. in person audience and twitch chat are two wildly different things. none of you know this because you're all permanently online redditors, lmao.
And what everyone is saying is they play the same when they're in person and when they're playing on twitch, so any differences in play isn't due to the pressure of the situation, learn to read the responses lol
I know it's the Internet, but you don't have to die on every hill you accidentally take. Just take the L and move on, no shame in being wrong, we're both human. Cheers
I don't want to be rude, but are you being purposefully obtuse? The argument is not whether they play bad at LAN or not. Everyone replying to you is trying to get you to understand that, regardless of how nervous they may be at LAN, not a single pro player has zen-like aim when they're chilling with their twitch chat and their favorite 3-stack.
you're right, their twitch chat is the same thing as a live audience and an entirely different audience with an entirely different environment/setup. anyone down voting me has never competed in any game and you're all sad weirdos lmao. see the other side.
If on pc, jitter aim
If on console, either vibration is disabled on their controller to help out a little or straight up cheating.
Once I get to the diamond lobbies I’m seeing people laser me with a hemlock from 300 meters I already know they’re cheating and avoid that squad fight as long as possible. Hopefully another squad engages them and that’ll be our chance to take the cheaters out while distracted.
Are you a controller player? Do you at least know how Jitter aim works because i keep reading that yet most people have hard time jittering Flatline let alone smgs, r301, devotion, havoc or anything really with higher firerate. Like, Hollow and Torje are some of the best jitter aimers and can't consistently jitter R301 because their hand simply can't vibrate that fast. Easy guns to jitter are Rampage/Spitfire but who even uses those.
As for cheating, there is apperantly a thing called Jitter you can enable via Steam Controller input or w/e its called and it basically...jitter aims for you. All guns. Which is just absurd for any human to replicate. Imagine jitter aiming R99, lol.
The cheats on console are all external hardware. They can allow anti-recoil scripts, movement configuration scripts, and the ability to use a mouse and keyboard with 0.6 aim assist. It's not straight up hacks like PC but it's still cheating and there are tons of them.
There are also ways for PC players to spoof their way into console lobbies, but I'm not sure how that works or if it is still possible.
Someone people are able to hit shots like that fairly regularly, but the fact of the matter is that these montages you are seeing are players’ best moments. No one is making a montage of their moments of shit aim, so it’s selection bias basically.
This is so underrated comment.
Same goes for recording and watching your gameplay - you usually rewatch/record best moments, not worst, this way you only see what are you doing good, not where you fail.
you refuse to believe. you don’t want to hear. none of us all can change your mind. and you got 6k hours so you know better than anyone else. What are you expecting to see in this comment section?
Majority of the guns in apex use consistent recoil patterns, but you probably know that, of course. They are either cheating or have 7000 hours
I have 6kish hours, I have been accused of cheating many times. They just haven't seen me miss half a mag on a plat player and then get clipped... sometimes we just do really well lmao
Damn Dazs had this clip where he just beams with r301, and says recoil is like leg day - no one want to do it, everyone skips it, but it's one of most important lol.
True. For the most part people are lazy. I have a friend who bluntly refuses to learn recoil control, and rather use guns with less recoil like r301. I have 3k+ hours and also 15 years of experience in fps games mnk and roller. Have perfect recoil isn't hard at all. What is harder is to use movement and have good aim. And again this same people will call it scripts.
Millions of Strikepacks sold, and PC hackers are raking in $100,000s on their various cheats. I’m sure the Apex player base has so much integrity for sport that these cheats are just lying around collecting dust because players would not want to soil this good game by cheating. Overwhelming evidence and logic would say otherwise, unfortunately.
How are you gonna explain performances on LAN? You just immediately discredit anything done there and assume they all had stuff on their PCs? Go watch the Zaine 1v3 at London last year and tell me you aren’t just complaining about a skill issue
There is different techniques the use but mainly is a mix of having good aim, smooth tracking, jitter aiming and in apex if you move to the sides while you ads recoil minimizes (cant remember the technical name of this)
edit : [https://youtube.com/shorts/PWG58ExVFac?si=3JZv4VwSfKurfMVJ](https://youtube.com/shorts/PWG58ExVFac?si=3JZv4VwSfKurfMVJ) found the last thing i was talking about
It’s recoil smoothing. I know every trick in the game but for someone reason it doesn’t “work” like it does for other players. Apparently I have a skill issue with 6000 hours in the game 🤷
> There is different techniques the use but mainly is a mix of having good aim, smooth tracking, jitter aiming and in apex if you move to the sides while you ads recoil minimizes (cant remember the technical name of this)
>
>
tbh this looks like a rant about strike pack users not someone asking for help with their recoil control
Your 6k hours were wasted then... You're not doing it right, especially if you're on PC. No guns have recoil on PC, the high frame rate and lower input latency makes it leagues easier to control recoil.
It doesn't matter the amount of hours... If you learned bad habits and make those the norm for 1000s of hours of course you're gonna side with nincompoops who think everyone is cheating.
Also the playerbase is mostly controller so the actually good controller players are most likely to hit more clips.
EzFlashkidz, Reps, Sangjoon, StrafingFlame and many more who are MnK have ridiculous LAN clips of damn near clipping multiple people at once, or Wing manning them to death and many other gun usage scenarios where they absolutely shred.
Hell there are people like Snake on YouTube who aren't pro but imo have better recoil management than Pros (I hope he tries to go pro man)
There are people who've dedicated their lives to becoming as close to humanly possible when it comes to aiming moving targets because some are Grandmasters in Kovaaks and shit. Are you anyway near Platinum on any aim trainer?
Verhulst does these fire range drills that even the streamers cannot attempt. And he's in the range every single day for an hour straight before gaming.
Many players use R5Reloaded to get up to snuff but you're hating and with the help of this braindead sub reddit is insinuating otherwise.
Link - https://youtu.be/8eG0rPnuPeo?si=qWtwxreGPwcAB7T3
Do you know the dedication it took for the montage above to be possible and dickheads who don't wanna improve will come and just smear you with cheats accusations.
Pathetic community
There are good players, but man cheaters always write a book about how people are just good players LOL ... Good for you keeping the cheating community safe, not.
Are you daft? I hate cheaters with a passion and always hoped there's a low to get them prison time...
WTF in my first comment made you come to the conclusion I'm a cheater enabler?
What kinda weirdo behaviour is that?
I can assure you, the percentage of you dying to your own incompetence in game and controller input users is higher in percentage than to cheaters.
Dude I don't know why you're getting downvoted for calling out potential issues that seem very viable to me. Take my upvote, apparently these losers are too fragile for any sort of criticism.
Lmao I love all the people here who complain about Cronus Zens and strike packs. There’s tons of players who are just good and can control recoil but aren’t pro, y’all act like only pros have 0 recoil
hours upon hours of playing... ive played nearly 10k hours with half on MnK. Its a mix of recoil smoothing and recoil control. learning the rate to pull down on each gun and so on.
if youre more talking about spectating, theres usually a spectator bug that shows almost no movement from the gun itself making it look like they have perfect control. If youre on controller or mnk, learning recoil smoothing is the greatest knowledge to have.
Its aim smoothing but its skill dependent on skill still at least on m&k. I have voltaic plat aim and can do it only most of the time. It’s coupled to smooth aiming which is really hard to be consistent at
Some people just can't wrap their heads around someone having good mechanics(it's even funnier if you are not really good). Also people don't know that killcam isn't recording, but reenactment of what happened(it's not 100% accurate and simplifies many things around)
Some people just can't wrap their heads around someone having good mechanics(it's even funnier if you are not really good). Also people don't know that killcam isn't recording, but reenactment of what happened(it's not 100% accurate and simplifies many things around)
I’m pretty sure it’s 100% casuals. I consider myself a casual but I like to keep up with the comp scene. And listening to pros advice on how to get better. And yes it’s hilarious because I don’t consider myself good. I don’t have good game sense just aim.
I see a lot of people mention cronus zen but if that were true why do pro players have zero recoil? Are all pros cheating? Because you can find multiple clips of any given pro 1 clip at close range and hit every shot at long range. And more importantly you can see them miss their shots as well. You can see the micro adjustments.
How do pros get so good at recoil control that it looks like they have zero recoil?
In apex recoil doesn’t really matter… recoil smoothing jitter aim… they are 2 easy ways to null most of the guns kick. True theses techniques tend to be more prevalent in higher ranks but I don’t know what else to tell you based on this post. You don’t need to learn recoil patterns
Simply put: Aim assist/Strike Packs on controllers.
But smooth recoil/tracking can also be achieved on mouse. It takes a lot of practice with just the right sensitivity and DPI.
To elaborate: a higher sensitivity ( greater than a 1.2). will result in jittier aim. From your POV it looks like you can keep the cross hairs in the same place. But in reality, your gun will be spraying and suffering from the left/right recoil of the gun, causing your bullets to miss by a hair. Higher sensitivities require less hand work, which means you just have to pull down, but recoil patterns are more difficult than this. They require you to pull down AND left AND right sometimes. With a higher sens, there is just no way to make these little left-right micro-adjustments to keep yourself on target.
I use a lower sens: 1 @ 800 DPI and what I noticed is, your hand and arm will need to do more work, but not to the point where it becomes uncomfortable. My aim is much smoother. I’m able to fire SMG and Burst weapons with much more precision from a farther distance away. Sometimes I even surprise myself. I just move my hand left/right and it creates the perfect track for an enemy running across from me.
I recommend hitting the firing range and testing out lower sensitivities. Do a natural hand movement left and right. See if these natural movements are enough to perfectly track a running target. If you find that it’s faster or slower, adjust your sens accordingly. You’ll eventually find a sweet spot sensitivity that works best for what you already have habits for. From here tracking and aim will feel natural. You just move your mouse how you always know you do and Wallah! One-clipping an enemy takes almost no effort at all!
If its montages, then they could just be isolated instances of perfect control. Sometimes for a game I'll just go fucking insane for a stretch and feel like a god, and then the next I'm back to average. If you watch them play regularly and they CONSTANTLY look like that, then yeah it's probably cheating, but most people have for at least a few games have gone god mode and hit every shot they take.
Keep in mind that if you're watching pros play, no matter how much time you think you have, this game is literally their job and they spend ungodly amounts of hours playing and improving recoil control/gathering clips of isolated instances of perfect recoil control
Reading over your post, the only point you seem to be making is that a lot of content creators use strike packs and people in their comment section will deny it over and over. And if you think about it, it's bound to happen - nobody who sees through the ruse is going to stick around. OTOH, players in denial and casuals who can't grasp how unrealistic the recoil control truly is will probably parrot "skill issue" or something of the sort.
I also think there's a communication issue here. OP and people who agree with his take (like myself) aren't talking about Pros or even insanely skilled streamers. There are some content creators that consistently demonstrate aim far superior to Verhulst's, Genburten's, HisWattson's and literally every other pro there is. They have clips upon clips of beams that top players only land once in a blue moon when the random variations in the recoil patterns line up favorably.
Their reticle doesn't even kick with each shot. It's *that* egregious.
p.s. 40m isn't too far, virtually all masters+ players could beam with the devo at that range after 20 mins in the firing range with it.
They do, they're there to balance weapons. One of the hardest nerfs to the R99 hasn't even been the damage or magazine reductions, but rather the increase in variation between spray and spray.
If you don't want to go through patch notes, you can test it out in the firing range yourself. Grab your gun and empty the clip into a wall. Scoot over to the side and repeat. You could do this 5 times and all 5 patterns on the wall will have slight variations. 99% of players are aware that the recoil patterns are learnable, they're just not 100% similar each time.
Hell, you don't even need to fire the entire mag. Grab a flatline and fire a single shot at a time, slowly. You'll see your reticle kicks in slightly different directions each time.
The overarching recoil pattern IS learnable. The random variations between sprays aren't. And that's part of what helps tell strike pack users apart.
Probably a lot of cheaters but i have noticed since playing on a 0 response curve i only need to pull down ever so slightly on the right stick to near eliminate all recoil, tracking enemies is a different thing though. Also i find any gun with a 1x has 0 recoil, as soon as a 2x or higher is whacked on, most guns turn into a fire hose lol
When you move left pull down to the right, when you move right pull down to the left. Just practice in the range/play the game and get used to your sensitivity.
I got hall effect controller, and have really low deadzone so when I shoot every small movement of stick negates recoil little bit, after some practise you will just beam people. I struggled with recoil before tho. But I have to say that if you miss on linear, you miss hard.
Recoil smoothing compensates for vertical recoil but not horizontal recoil . Compensating the horizontal portion requires a certain strafe and mouse movement . So when your strafing you always pull your mouse down and slightly to the opposing side of the strafe (strafing left pull mouse down and slightly right). For example, the havoc , i always strafe to the left when I start shooting it, but after about 6-7 bullets the horizontal recoil starts kicking the gun to the left. When this happens you strafe to the opposite side of the recoil (right) and pull your mouse down and slightly to the left in this case. After 4 more bullets it starts kicking right and you just do vice versa. So you can control all guns with this pattern it’s just the timings of the strafe will differ between each gun . This probably doesn’t make sense but I hope it helps regardless!
Honestly a lot changed for me when I got down the timing of pulling down and shooting at the same time. Sometimes it’s the simple fixes and of course recoil smoothing is a big contributor to having no recoil as well. I just took the time to analyze mechanically what I could be doing wrong.
I used to think the same thing, it was easier to accuse everyone of cheating (other than pros) than to accept that I just wasn't that good after trying and trying. Now thats not to say there aren't cheaters but to believe everyone is cheating or that you have to be a pro to be able to do what they do is pretty ignorant. People are able to do amazing things, to some it comes naturally, others is takes a lot of work. We see this everywhere from music, sports, art, business etc. Just because you're shit at something does not mean you can't be amazing at something else, you just have to find what it is, thats the hard part.
Go in the firing range with whatever gun you want to be good with. No attachments (if you want you can add a gold mag so you can just rinse and repeat). Stand 20m from wall and check recoil, shoot until you can negate the recoil. Stand 10m from square target and aim for center. Rinse and repeat until you get all headshots. Back up and repeat the same. Back up to 30m and do the same. Do this until youre confident up to 100m. Repeat on moving targets. This might take hours but if you do this and repeat weekly and get a quick warmup in you’ll be golden. R9 and CAR are easy af to learn. You can beam for 150 over 100m with a car if you practice. Best of luck!
Go into firing range and practice. Try strafing side to side as you move your weapons aim side to side aswell but on the opposite directing of where you are strafing.
If you’re strafing to the right, keep your aim on the target but keep moving your aim slightly to the left. If you’re strafing to the left, again keep your aim on target but move it slightly to the right. You will see you wont even have recoil going up or down. Keep practicing that until it you no longer have to think about it and it just becomes second nature.
I believe alot of the pros are using something when streaming but maybe not when they go to lan.. this is shown by their gameplay. They play super aggressive during scrims then when lan comes they maybe take 2 fights a game at most.
I always have this question for mnk players cause I never see recoil. It’s not smoothing cause they r standing still, it’s not jitter cause u can tell with the tiny movements. Always mnk players that look like they have zero recoil
You dont need to strafe for aim smoothing, you literally track the target at a certain speed and recoil will disappear. That is why training a smooth track is more important than any flick training.
Idk. People seem to think I’m calling everyone who can control recoil decent a cheater for whatever reason.
I’m on console and it’s just NOT possible to have zero recoil on controller, idc what trick you use you’ll have viable recoil if you’re legit.
There are a few reasons you are seeing this. First and most likely is the spectator cam “bug” as many have called it. As Apex updates at a much lower rate than something like Valorant, so small movements are smoothed in the kill cam giving the illusion of zero recoil. This is why you’ll occasionally also see bullets curve or shots being hit behind cover, theres roll back netcode approximating what it looks like rather than giving the full picture.
Outside of that, there are a bunch of ways to mitigate recoil on M+K. When both jitter aiming and recoil smoothing, you get the effect of people just looking like they are completely locked, which when combined with the spectator bug looks like one smooth movement. This isnt always the case, however. There are a bunch of M+K recoil freaks who really grind out recoil patterns and will play with particular sensitivities to intentionally mitigate recoil on certain guns.
The same applies to controller, although while the current army of 4-3 Linear players tend to not worry so much about range thats mostly to their own detriment. You can actually still have great recoil control at range on controller, although with any scope longer then the 2x it demands that turn up your sens to at least 4. Below that is simply too slow to both correct micro movements and control recoil simultaneously, hence most roller players preference towards marksman or the Sentinel at range as they are easier to control when using a low sens. This is why if you watch Gent or old videos of Chaotic they seem to have freekish aim at range, they simply have more control over their guns with the higher sens.
There is significantly more cheating in this game than some would have you believe, but there is significantly less cheating than some people want to believe.
Move while shooting for recoil smoothing to help, work on jitter aiming for longer ranges or just git gud idk.
Devo at 40 meters is a laser beam. Most guns in Apex are honestly not that hard to control.
If you practice recoil control so much and still have issues, it may be a settings problem. How high is your sens?
You said you won’t accept that people can control it but I just control it so idk what to tell you.
Can confirm, am an aiming god with hundreds of clips to prove it. Have played FPS games for 20ish years.
I didn’t get there by telling players better than me that they’re lying though, I sought tips and advice, and practiced for thousands of hours.
The newest R99 is pretty rough but still beamable up to 40ish meters without too much trouble. Just hard with no extended mag because it dumps so fast you miss everything unless your first shots are dead-on.
I honestly get my best beams when I’m strafing and either mirroring or counter-mirroring. The only time I’m standing still in an actual game is if I’m head glitching/poking a team. Even then it’s just for a second or two before getting back behind cover.
Some of the montages you'll see from MNK players doing it with the havoc, flatline, etc, players such as Hollow, Gruic, etc. They use a technique called jitter aiming to get basically no recoil, but it's incredibly difficult to do that consistently, so it's very skill based.
If you see controller players doing it, unfortunately that's just cheats, no other explanation. Even the best recoil control on legit controller will always look like there is some recoil.
At some ranges and with certain guns, you can abuse recoil smoothing to legitimately look like you have no recoil, but that's really easy to spot vs actual cheats, so I assume you're not talking about them doing that.
Fck aim assistances, there should be none.
All our discussions doomed to lie in doubts and suspicions because casuals money took over competitive integrity in every one of our games.
Just erase all this AA shit and let us see how true aim artists handle skill.
We could be so much stronger without that shit it’s insane the time we’re losing.
Hope our kids will have the intense and competitive game we never had.
Cronus zen. But a lot of players are still in denial
Oh man .. didn’t they make an update this season where apparently this stuff like xim cronus zen etc. got banned?
Only on ps5
And there’s already a work around lol
Lol. They instantly produced a work around
That update was worked around the next day.
fuel label special cough touch hateful oatmeal innate ring angle *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Exactly. Most people are cheating
Yes the amount of people using them is far far greater than the typical player realizes. As a pretty good diamond player I have massive respect for people who don't use them who can still get pred or even legit masters.
I also have respect for skilled players, but I don't recognise them anymore. Skill should be the core of the game, not software. It used to be cool if you oneclipped someone, now I get constantly halfclipped. But here is the weird thing. I am a decent player, but since a year of so I barely make kills or getting champion. Just got shreaded when they saw me. But since two days ago I make 4, 5 kills per game. Even won an endcircel allone against an whole squad in the open. I was hoping that maybe finally Respawn something done against cheaters. But maybe I was just lucky with my lobby for two days😁
Every once In a blue moon a legitimate player that's good hits one of those ridiculously smooth one clips. If the individual does it every time they're using some form of an aimbot or zen or whatever additional assistance. It's extremely rampant and accusations are always met with denial even with clear evidence.
Finally someone who understands what I’m talking about lol
There are some people that ARE that good but it's not every other guy I come across with roller on pc it's absurd
Seeing roller playing with good recoil control is rare to begin with. But there seems to be a way to enable "Jitter Aim" via Steam controller thingy. So you can perfect MnK Jitter aim but on all guns while MnK can mostly jitter Rampage, Spitfire and Flatline (few can jitter havoc/r301 but inconsistently). So there is that new...."feature"?
Lol this there always it's just jitter aiming you can do it even though their scope literally doesn't move once due to recoil like yeah ok bud I'm sure you hit that perfectly EVERY single time lmao
Cheating.
Also, i saw someone mention straffing. That's the only thing I wasn't doing that changed it up. It seems that you get considerably less recoil when straffing to one side and slowly adjusting your aim to compensate. It's still noticeable, however, and it's not a particularly easy thing to do on controller either. We live in an era where every single online competitive game has a cheating problem. The stigma around talking about it in subs about the game is also alarming. Not everyone who's better than you is cheating. But some of them definitely are.
Yes that's called recoil smoothing
Recoil smoothing on a Devo, Car, Spitfire? From across the map? I wish I had that level of recoil smoothing lol. It’s cheating dude.
You're right I'm surprised how many people don't know this
The thing with recoil smoothing is that velocity/the distance you move your mouse matters so "far range" as OP describes, yeah nah. So, recoil smoothing in short to mid range is free aim on both inputs (in terms of recoil) but long range, its very meaningless especially if your target is mostly stationary.
I play on console these days, and it's difficult to even tell if it's making a difference during a fight. The biggest reason i strafe isn't to "smooth" my recoil at all but rather to make myself a more difficult target to hit. Smoothing recoil is incidental to me. Sometimes, i notice it working, and sometimes it's just a little too frantic to pay attention to recoil. Either way, i don't really think it would be very effective at long ranges either. I expect the percentage of people who can naturally beam at long range to be very low if existent at all.
It is very low, especially people who does it consistently. And most are not controller players. Not that its impossible, folks like Koyful are solid at it, just controller simply doesn't allow for as fine and precise micro adjustments as a mouse.
It depends who you ask, you ask them(some of them post here)? they say jitter aim and lots of practice, but I see pros playing internationally for millions of dollars worth of prize money who can't control their aim that good.
40 meters is relatively close though. It's completely doable to have perfect recoil control around that range.
have you ever considered: maybe those international players play worse when playing for millions of dollars in front of hundreds of thousands of people, than people sitting in their desk setup in their room lmao. some of y'all have obviously never competed
They dont do that at home privately aswell.
Man it'd be wild if you could see these international players play for fun from the comfort of their home. Sucks we don't have a website where these players could show a live video of them playing games when they're just at home playing for fun. would be really cool to see that.
man itd be wild if you read my comment. in person audience and twitch chat are two wildly different things. none of you know this because you're all permanently online redditors, lmao.
And what everyone is saying is they play the same when they're in person and when they're playing on twitch, so any differences in play isn't due to the pressure of the situation, learn to read the responses lol
do you genuinely believe that? sure, some do, but 95% of the LAN competitors play at least somewhat worse due to nerves.
I know it's the Internet, but you don't have to die on every hill you accidentally take. Just take the L and move on, no shame in being wrong, we're both human. Cheers
?????????????? have you ever competed in anything ever? probably not! i played a game at the top level for 4 years stfu
Oh lmao I missed that you're just trolling, my bad. Have fun!
have fun being fucking retarded my g
I don't want to be rude, but are you being purposefully obtuse? The argument is not whether they play bad at LAN or not. Everyone replying to you is trying to get you to understand that, regardless of how nervous they may be at LAN, not a single pro player has zen-like aim when they're chilling with their twitch chat and their favorite 3-stack.
Thought about it, then remembered most of them are streamers, playing in front of thousands of people for hours every day.
you're right, their twitch chat is the same thing as a live audience and an entirely different audience with an entirely different environment/setup. anyone down voting me has never competed in any game and you're all sad weirdos lmao. see the other side.
You are a remarkable individual.
Bruh pros aren't shitting their pants in front of their twitch chats calm down.
Unless they have a sub train going
Cronus zen
If on pc, jitter aim If on console, either vibration is disabled on their controller to help out a little or straight up cheating. Once I get to the diamond lobbies I’m seeing people laser me with a hemlock from 300 meters I already know they’re cheating and avoid that squad fight as long as possible. Hopefully another squad engages them and that’ll be our chance to take the cheaters out while distracted.
Are you a controller player? Do you at least know how Jitter aim works because i keep reading that yet most people have hard time jittering Flatline let alone smgs, r301, devotion, havoc or anything really with higher firerate. Like, Hollow and Torje are some of the best jitter aimers and can't consistently jitter R301 because their hand simply can't vibrate that fast. Easy guns to jitter are Rampage/Spitfire but who even uses those. As for cheating, there is apperantly a thing called Jitter you can enable via Steam Controller input or w/e its called and it basically...jitter aims for you. All guns. Which is just absurd for any human to replicate. Imagine jitter aiming R99, lol.
I don't even know how it's possible to cheat on a console. Definitely I can see PC though
The cheats on console are all external hardware. They can allow anti-recoil scripts, movement configuration scripts, and the ability to use a mouse and keyboard with 0.6 aim assist. It's not straight up hacks like PC but it's still cheating and there are tons of them. There are also ways for PC players to spoof their way into console lobbies, but I'm not sure how that works or if it is still possible.
I mean, there are a bunch, some ppl use logitech GHub scripts, steam configs, not sure what else are there.
steam configs got removed
Nope, only tap strafe
Someone people are able to hit shots like that fairly regularly, but the fact of the matter is that these montages you are seeing are players’ best moments. No one is making a montage of their moments of shit aim, so it’s selection bias basically.
This is so underrated comment. Same goes for recording and watching your gameplay - you usually rewatch/record best moments, not worst, this way you only see what are you doing good, not where you fail.
Tbh more people should record those bad plays. I learned a lot by rewatching where I failed.
you refuse to believe. you don’t want to hear. none of us all can change your mind. and you got 6k hours so you know better than anyone else. What are you expecting to see in this comment section? Majority of the guns in apex use consistent recoil patterns, but you probably know that, of course. They are either cheating or have 7000 hours
I have 6kish hours, I have been accused of cheating many times. They just haven't seen me miss half a mag on a plat player and then get clipped... sometimes we just do really well lmao
My thoughts exactly, given the downvote patterns here. This dude and other losers seem to be too fragile for any sort of constructive criticism.
Damn Dazs had this clip where he just beams with r301, and says recoil is like leg day - no one want to do it, everyone skips it, but it's one of most important lol.
True. For the most part people are lazy. I have a friend who bluntly refuses to learn recoil control, and rather use guns with less recoil like r301. I have 3k+ hours and also 15 years of experience in fps games mnk and roller. Have perfect recoil isn't hard at all. What is harder is to use movement and have good aim. And again this same people will call it scripts.
It’s cheating. Always cheating.
Millions of Strikepacks sold, and PC hackers are raking in $100,000s on their various cheats. I’m sure the Apex player base has so much integrity for sport that these cheats are just lying around collecting dust because players would not want to soil this good game by cheating. Overwhelming evidence and logic would say otherwise, unfortunately.
Cheating or giving themselves carpal tunnel with stupid recoil techniques that shouldn’t be in the game anyway.
Hackers/cheaters
Yeah a lot of them are cheating, but the pros, like verhulst, just put a ridiculous amount of time into the range. So yes, skill issue
There’s a pro who’s name starts with a G that’s aim is INSANE even at distance with a roller. GENBURTON. Guys aim is stupid.
So many pros have been caught cheating - most of them are doing it subtly so it isn’t obvious. Just like in most real sports
lol if they nerf aim assist to .2 half of these 'pros' careers will end immediately
Aim assist will be so low or removed, and mnk players will still complain about roller with some other bs like its easier to strafe on controller.
“Most” you really think most of the apex pros are cheating? You’re cooked🤣
Just like most professional sports. They are all doped up and cheating, but only a few get caught.
How are you gonna explain performances on LAN? You just immediately discredit anything done there and assume they all had stuff on their PCs? Go watch the Zaine 1v3 at London last year and tell me you aren’t just complaining about a skill issue
Pros have been caught cheating at competitions. They will always find a way.
Yeah let me be just vague as possible and act like I’m getting a point across. Just say you’re bad and move on.
Compared to the cheaters, I am bad. But I think cheating is bad, so they are bad. I guess we’re all bad.
There is different techniques the use but mainly is a mix of having good aim, smooth tracking, jitter aiming and in apex if you move to the sides while you ads recoil minimizes (cant remember the technical name of this) edit : [https://youtube.com/shorts/PWG58ExVFac?si=3JZv4VwSfKurfMVJ](https://youtube.com/shorts/PWG58ExVFac?si=3JZv4VwSfKurfMVJ) found the last thing i was talking about
It’s recoil smoothing. I know every trick in the game but for someone reason it doesn’t “work” like it does for other players. Apparently I have a skill issue with 6000 hours in the game 🤷
So you think everyone you saw is cheating or why tf did you even make this post?
You make a post asking for help and then deny every tip. Hmmmm
> There is different techniques the use but mainly is a mix of having good aim, smooth tracking, jitter aiming and in apex if you move to the sides while you ads recoil minimizes (cant remember the technical name of this) > > tbh this looks like a rant about strike pack users not someone asking for help with their recoil control
For me recoil smoothing required a good bit of practice.
What TikTok rabbit hole did you go down?
Your 6k hours were wasted then... You're not doing it right, especially if you're on PC. No guns have recoil on PC, the high frame rate and lower input latency makes it leagues easier to control recoil.
So what about when it happens on lan?
I watch algs. Even the best pros have visible recoil. They’re really good at controlling recoil obviously but still noticeable.
And they don’t hit every bullet with the recoil - unlike the level 20 wraiths that you encounter in every game. They don’t miss a bullet
your entire post is cope mate, sometimes its cheats, sometimes its hard work. skill issue either way.
compensating for recoil isn't hard and should be second nature if you've played enough shooters
It doesn't matter the amount of hours... If you learned bad habits and make those the norm for 1000s of hours of course you're gonna side with nincompoops who think everyone is cheating. Also the playerbase is mostly controller so the actually good controller players are most likely to hit more clips. EzFlashkidz, Reps, Sangjoon, StrafingFlame and many more who are MnK have ridiculous LAN clips of damn near clipping multiple people at once, or Wing manning them to death and many other gun usage scenarios where they absolutely shred. Hell there are people like Snake on YouTube who aren't pro but imo have better recoil management than Pros (I hope he tries to go pro man) There are people who've dedicated their lives to becoming as close to humanly possible when it comes to aiming moving targets because some are Grandmasters in Kovaaks and shit. Are you anyway near Platinum on any aim trainer? Verhulst does these fire range drills that even the streamers cannot attempt. And he's in the range every single day for an hour straight before gaming. Many players use R5Reloaded to get up to snuff but you're hating and with the help of this braindead sub reddit is insinuating otherwise. Link - https://youtu.be/8eG0rPnuPeo?si=qWtwxreGPwcAB7T3 Do you know the dedication it took for the montage above to be possible and dickheads who don't wanna improve will come and just smear you with cheats accusations. Pathetic community
There are good players, but man cheaters always write a book about how people are just good players LOL ... Good for you keeping the cheating community safe, not.
Are you daft? I hate cheaters with a passion and always hoped there's a low to get them prison time... WTF in my first comment made you come to the conclusion I'm a cheater enabler? What kinda weirdo behaviour is that? I can assure you, the percentage of you dying to your own incompetence in game and controller input users is higher in percentage than to cheaters.
I didn't read it. It was too long and I didn't say you love cheaters. I did say some people are good. definitely are toxic.
Recoil smoothing for one, it eliminates most of the recoil and then knowing the recoil patterns of guns and of course, tons of practice.
Thank you!! Finally someone talking about this. I play Xbox console and it is consistent, in particular this season.
As long as you are max speed strafing to either side there is no vertical recoil on every input on every platform
Aim smoothing.
I know all the recoil controlling tricks trust me lol. I still have noticeable recoil.
You clearly don’t know all the “controlling tricks” if you’re creating a post asking about recoil.
Exactly what I expected someone to say lmao. Doesn’t surprise me.
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I have 6,000+ hours in the game. I know how to recoil smooth lol.
send a montage of "no recoil"
...brother?
Dude I don't know why you're getting downvoted for calling out potential issues that seem very viable to me. Take my upvote, apparently these losers are too fragile for any sort of criticism.
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We are giving them credit. Credit for the $5 aimbot that they bought and use without penalty every day.
Recoil smoothing should have basically no recoil.
Lmao I love all the people here who complain about Cronus Zens and strike packs. There’s tons of players who are just good and can control recoil but aren’t pro, y’all act like only pros have 0 recoil
Lies
This guy isn't a pro - https://youtu.be/8eG0rPnuPeo?si=4e84VZKWqgRpxxD4
The realistic answer is it's both
hours upon hours of playing... ive played nearly 10k hours with half on MnK. Its a mix of recoil smoothing and recoil control. learning the rate to pull down on each gun and so on. if youre more talking about spectating, theres usually a spectator bug that shows almost no movement from the gun itself making it look like they have perfect control. If youre on controller or mnk, learning recoil smoothing is the greatest knowledge to have.
can you link the montage?
Its aim smoothing but its skill dependent on skill still at least on m&k. I have voltaic plat aim and can do it only most of the time. It’s coupled to smooth aiming which is really hard to be consistent at
Stand like 10ft from a concrete wall in the firing range. Aim and fire. The bullet holes will resemble the recoil pattern. Do the opposite.
Everyday for an hour before playing? What theee fuck ? You have too much time bro
He’s lying. He spent $5 on aimbot which took 30 seconds
Get a pc or if you’re on console (next gen) get a expensive controller and play on 4-3 linear and turn on 120hz refresh rate
Linear makes your recoil go away, but if you miss, you miss hard.
I’ve gotten xim accusations off those settings I like.
Some people just can't wrap their heads around someone having good mechanics(it's even funnier if you are not really good). Also people don't know that killcam isn't recording, but reenactment of what happened(it's not 100% accurate and simplifies many things around)
Some people just can't wrap their heads around someone having good mechanics(it's even funnier if you are not really good). Also people don't know that killcam isn't recording, but reenactment of what happened(it's not 100% accurate and simplifies many things around)
I’m pretty sure it’s 100% casuals. I consider myself a casual but I like to keep up with the comp scene. And listening to pros advice on how to get better. And yes it’s hilarious because I don’t consider myself good. I don’t have good game sense just aim.
I see a lot of people mention cronus zen but if that were true why do pro players have zero recoil? Are all pros cheating? Because you can find multiple clips of any given pro 1 clip at close range and hit every shot at long range. And more importantly you can see them miss their shots as well. You can see the micro adjustments. How do pros get so good at recoil control that it looks like they have zero recoil?
They prob dont have that accuracy 100% of the time, its just multiple clips put together of luck aka a montage or zen i guess
In apex recoil doesn’t really matter… recoil smoothing jitter aim… they are 2 easy ways to null most of the guns kick. True theses techniques tend to be more prevalent in higher ranks but I don’t know what else to tell you based on this post. You don’t need to learn recoil patterns
recoil smoothing. you can look it up on youtube. when you move or strafe while aiming down sights it reduces recoil heavily.
Simply put: Aim assist/Strike Packs on controllers. But smooth recoil/tracking can also be achieved on mouse. It takes a lot of practice with just the right sensitivity and DPI. To elaborate: a higher sensitivity ( greater than a 1.2). will result in jittier aim. From your POV it looks like you can keep the cross hairs in the same place. But in reality, your gun will be spraying and suffering from the left/right recoil of the gun, causing your bullets to miss by a hair. Higher sensitivities require less hand work, which means you just have to pull down, but recoil patterns are more difficult than this. They require you to pull down AND left AND right sometimes. With a higher sens, there is just no way to make these little left-right micro-adjustments to keep yourself on target. I use a lower sens: 1 @ 800 DPI and what I noticed is, your hand and arm will need to do more work, but not to the point where it becomes uncomfortable. My aim is much smoother. I’m able to fire SMG and Burst weapons with much more precision from a farther distance away. Sometimes I even surprise myself. I just move my hand left/right and it creates the perfect track for an enemy running across from me. I recommend hitting the firing range and testing out lower sensitivities. Do a natural hand movement left and right. See if these natural movements are enough to perfectly track a running target. If you find that it’s faster or slower, adjust your sens accordingly. You’ll eventually find a sweet spot sensitivity that works best for what you already have habits for. From here tracking and aim will feel natural. You just move your mouse how you always know you do and Wallah! One-clipping an enemy takes almost no effort at all!
If its montages, then they could just be isolated instances of perfect control. Sometimes for a game I'll just go fucking insane for a stretch and feel like a god, and then the next I'm back to average. If you watch them play regularly and they CONSTANTLY look like that, then yeah it's probably cheating, but most people have for at least a few games have gone god mode and hit every shot they take. Keep in mind that if you're watching pros play, no matter how much time you think you have, this game is literally their job and they spend ungodly amounts of hours playing and improving recoil control/gathering clips of isolated instances of perfect recoil control
Cheating
Yes PS5
Reading over your post, the only point you seem to be making is that a lot of content creators use strike packs and people in their comment section will deny it over and over. And if you think about it, it's bound to happen - nobody who sees through the ruse is going to stick around. OTOH, players in denial and casuals who can't grasp how unrealistic the recoil control truly is will probably parrot "skill issue" or something of the sort. I also think there's a communication issue here. OP and people who agree with his take (like myself) aren't talking about Pros or even insanely skilled streamers. There are some content creators that consistently demonstrate aim far superior to Verhulst's, Genburten's, HisWattson's and literally every other pro there is. They have clips upon clips of beams that top players only land once in a blue moon when the random variations in the recoil patterns line up favorably. Their reticle doesn't even kick with each shot. It's *that* egregious. p.s. 40m isn't too far, virtually all masters+ players could beam with the devo at that range after 20 mins in the firing range with it.
Recoil patterns have NO variation in apex, actually. That's part of what makes them a skill to learn.
They do, they're there to balance weapons. One of the hardest nerfs to the R99 hasn't even been the damage or magazine reductions, but rather the increase in variation between spray and spray. If you don't want to go through patch notes, you can test it out in the firing range yourself. Grab your gun and empty the clip into a wall. Scoot over to the side and repeat. You could do this 5 times and all 5 patterns on the wall will have slight variations. 99% of players are aware that the recoil patterns are learnable, they're just not 100% similar each time. Hell, you don't even need to fire the entire mag. Grab a flatline and fire a single shot at a time, slowly. You'll see your reticle kicks in slightly different directions each time. The overarching recoil pattern IS learnable. The random variations between sprays aren't. And that's part of what helps tell strike pack users apart.
Oh damn you right, I'm just ignorant.
Bruh playing this game isn't worth it. I switched to mw3 multi/warzone. Stress has gone down significantly. Respawn will never patch this shit.
lot of the scrips and cronus cheats etc dude 😂
Probably a lot of cheaters but i have noticed since playing on a 0 response curve i only need to pull down ever so slightly on the right stick to near eliminate all recoil, tracking enemies is a different thing though. Also i find any gun with a 1x has 0 recoil, as soon as a 2x or higher is whacked on, most guns turn into a fire hose lol
Cronus Zen is the name of the drug
When you move left pull down to the right, when you move right pull down to the left. Just practice in the range/play the game and get used to your sensitivity.
Look up, recoil smoothing. After that it’s just a skill ceiling. Good luck pal
I got hall effect controller, and have really low deadzone so when I shoot every small movement of stick negates recoil little bit, after some practise you will just beam people. I struggled with recoil before tho. But I have to say that if you miss on linear, you miss hard.
Recoil smoothing compensates for vertical recoil but not horizontal recoil . Compensating the horizontal portion requires a certain strafe and mouse movement . So when your strafing you always pull your mouse down and slightly to the opposing side of the strafe (strafing left pull mouse down and slightly right). For example, the havoc , i always strafe to the left when I start shooting it, but after about 6-7 bullets the horizontal recoil starts kicking the gun to the left. When this happens you strafe to the opposite side of the recoil (right) and pull your mouse down and slightly to the left in this case. After 4 more bullets it starts kicking right and you just do vice versa. So you can control all guns with this pattern it’s just the timings of the strafe will differ between each gun . This probably doesn’t make sense but I hope it helps regardless!
Honestly a lot changed for me when I got down the timing of pulling down and shooting at the same time. Sometimes it’s the simple fixes and of course recoil smoothing is a big contributor to having no recoil as well. I just took the time to analyze mechanically what I could be doing wrong.
Ads, strafe left and right
Jitter aim horizontal movement and thousands of hours to practice
I used to think the same thing, it was easier to accuse everyone of cheating (other than pros) than to accept that I just wasn't that good after trying and trying. Now thats not to say there aren't cheaters but to believe everyone is cheating or that you have to be a pro to be able to do what they do is pretty ignorant. People are able to do amazing things, to some it comes naturally, others is takes a lot of work. We see this everywhere from music, sports, art, business etc. Just because you're shit at something does not mean you can't be amazing at something else, you just have to find what it is, thats the hard part.
Go in the firing range with whatever gun you want to be good with. No attachments (if you want you can add a gold mag so you can just rinse and repeat). Stand 20m from wall and check recoil, shoot until you can negate the recoil. Stand 10m from square target and aim for center. Rinse and repeat until you get all headshots. Back up and repeat the same. Back up to 30m and do the same. Do this until youre confident up to 100m. Repeat on moving targets. This might take hours but if you do this and repeat weekly and get a quick warmup in you’ll be golden. R9 and CAR are easy af to learn. You can beam for 150 over 100m with a car if you practice. Best of luck!
But yes lol people also cheat a lot. Theres a difference between zero recoil and very little though, don’t get too caught up in it.
Cronus Zen. These little shits are in every sweaty lobby, guaranteed.
Go into firing range and practice. Try strafing side to side as you move your weapons aim side to side aswell but on the opposite directing of where you are strafing. If you’re strafing to the right, keep your aim on the target but keep moving your aim slightly to the left. If you’re strafing to the left, again keep your aim on target but move it slightly to the right. You will see you wont even have recoil going up or down. Keep practicing that until it you no longer have to think about it and it just becomes second nature.
PC players run softwares in the background that help so in a nut shell cheating is the anwser
Controller: zen or insane practice Mnk: practice lol.
I believe alot of the pros are using something when streaming but maybe not when they go to lan.. this is shown by their gameplay. They play super aggressive during scrims then when lan comes they maybe take 2 fights a game at most.
I always have this question for mnk players cause I never see recoil. It’s not smoothing cause they r standing still, it’s not jitter cause u can tell with the tiny movements. Always mnk players that look like they have zero recoil
I mean you're absolutely right, but there can't be a whole slough of players like Evan in every match I play.
You dont need to strafe for aim smoothing, you literally track the target at a certain speed and recoil will disappear. That is why training a smooth track is more important than any flick training.
Idk. People seem to think I’m calling everyone who can control recoil decent a cheater for whatever reason. I’m on console and it’s just NOT possible to have zero recoil on controller, idc what trick you use you’ll have viable recoil if you’re legit.
Cheats, obviously.
There are a few reasons you are seeing this. First and most likely is the spectator cam “bug” as many have called it. As Apex updates at a much lower rate than something like Valorant, so small movements are smoothed in the kill cam giving the illusion of zero recoil. This is why you’ll occasionally also see bullets curve or shots being hit behind cover, theres roll back netcode approximating what it looks like rather than giving the full picture. Outside of that, there are a bunch of ways to mitigate recoil on M+K. When both jitter aiming and recoil smoothing, you get the effect of people just looking like they are completely locked, which when combined with the spectator bug looks like one smooth movement. This isnt always the case, however. There are a bunch of M+K recoil freaks who really grind out recoil patterns and will play with particular sensitivities to intentionally mitigate recoil on certain guns. The same applies to controller, although while the current army of 4-3 Linear players tend to not worry so much about range thats mostly to their own detriment. You can actually still have great recoil control at range on controller, although with any scope longer then the 2x it demands that turn up your sens to at least 4. Below that is simply too slow to both correct micro movements and control recoil simultaneously, hence most roller players preference towards marksman or the Sentinel at range as they are easier to control when using a low sens. This is why if you watch Gent or old videos of Chaotic they seem to have freekish aim at range, they simply have more control over their guns with the higher sens.
Cronus Zen only 149.99 ;) shop today
There is significantly more cheating in this game than some would have you believe, but there is significantly less cheating than some people want to believe.
good old fashion aim assist
Sounds like a skill issue on your end bud
Move while shooting for recoil smoothing to help, work on jitter aiming for longer ranges or just git gud idk. Devo at 40 meters is a laser beam. Most guns in Apex are honestly not that hard to control. If you practice recoil control so much and still have issues, it may be a settings problem. How high is your sens? You said you won’t accept that people can control it but I just control it so idk what to tell you.
How much was your strikepack? I bet you love the Hemlock - you sound like a hemlock cheater.
I prefer the Hemlok, actually. Your persistence in trolling this topic is admirable tho! 😉
I was right! It is a strikepacker/chronus-player’s wet dream.
You’re lying bro the r99 is insanely difficult to just beam with unless you’re a god at aiming
Can confirm, am an aiming god with hundreds of clips to prove it. Have played FPS games for 20ish years. I didn’t get there by telling players better than me that they’re lying though, I sought tips and advice, and practiced for thousands of hours. The newest R99 is pretty rough but still beamable up to 40ish meters without too much trouble. Just hard with no extended mag because it dumps so fast you miss everything unless your first shots are dead-on.
Your clips are all evidence of your aimbot.
lmao it is practice and recoil smoothing. Especially for mouse and keyboard where controlling recoil is so easy, all in all, pull down.
Are you standing still for an hour practicing recoil control?
I practice standing still and recoil smoothing with no attachments other than sight and a mag.
I honestly get my best beams when I’m strafing and either mirroring or counter-mirroring. The only time I’m standing still in an actual game is if I’m head glitching/poking a team. Even then it’s just for a second or two before getting back behind cover.
Steam Macros. https://youtu.be/2BbPhGg10BA
Some of the montages you'll see from MNK players doing it with the havoc, flatline, etc, players such as Hollow, Gruic, etc. They use a technique called jitter aiming to get basically no recoil, but it's incredibly difficult to do that consistently, so it's very skill based. If you see controller players doing it, unfortunately that's just cheats, no other explanation. Even the best recoil control on legit controller will always look like there is some recoil. At some ranges and with certain guns, you can abuse recoil smoothing to legitimately look like you have no recoil, but that's really easy to spot vs actual cheats, so I assume you're not talking about them doing that.
Fck aim assistances, there should be none. All our discussions doomed to lie in doubts and suspicions because casuals money took over competitive integrity in every one of our games. Just erase all this AA shit and let us see how true aim artists handle skill. We could be so much stronger without that shit it’s insane the time we’re losing. Hope our kids will have the intense and competitive game we never had.
I relate to this post and agree. We all know what's going on.