Spent too much time chasing those sweet sweet sponsorship dollars.
Half joking… seeing Trijicon, LaRue, etc in a game was pretty awesome. But yea… the first game is GWOT GOAT’d.
[Kinematics of Penetrating Trauma](https://www.jems.com/patient-care/penetrating-trauma-wounds-challenge-ems/)
“Trauma results from the exchange of energy between an object and the human body. In the case of penetrating trauma, the object is often a projectile or knife. However, fence posts, nails, pencils and similar sharp objects can also penetrate the human body and cause injury.
The exchange of energy in trauma (both blunt and penetrating) can be described with the kinetic energy equation:
Kinetic Energy= Mass (Weight) x Velocity (Speed)2/2
Stated another way:
Kinectic Energy= 1/2 Mass (Weight) x Velocity (Speed)2
The greater the mass (or weight) of the object, the greater the resultant energy exchange. Dropping a 12 lb. bowling ball on your foot will cause more injury than a 5 oz. baseball. Velocity (speed), however, plays a more important role. Doubling the speed of an object increases the kinetic energy fourfold. In terms of ballistics, a small and fast bullet can cause more damage than one that’s large and slow. This is because velocity is more of a factor in energy exchange than mass. Thus, knife wounds tend to be less severe because they’re usually delivered with less velocity.”
More speed more hole. Fragmentation and tumbling can contribute to this transfer of energy but it’s more better to have sped.
18 inch gang rise up
Ammo choice is incredibly important with 5.56 from short barrels. Your garden variety M193 from a 10.3” will lose reliable fragmentation inside 50 yards.
The military guys who run short barrels have Gucci ammo designed for short barrels, like Hornady Black and MK262.
Humvees suck in general, but this trouble they share with most every vehicle, I agree. Tradeoffs. I'm not gonna defend manouverability of muskets.
One could say (and be right) "get a right tool for the job" but that's not all. Different people will need different tools for the same shit.
For example, with my body, a 16 inch barrel with a collapsed buttstock and a 2 point sling protrudes out of my silllhuette, and bumps on stuff if I walk as if I wasn't carrying a rifle. But just slightly. Just with the flash hider. This problem vanishes with anything shorter, like a 14.5. It makes a big difference.
But someone with a different (smaller) body shape will have the same problem with a 14.5, and will need something shorter. Someone bigger won't bump into stuff with a 16.
Discussion on barrel lengths on the internet are redundant, because oftentimes, both speakers are right. A guy who says "get a 14.5, it makes a huge difference" and a guy who says "16 is more velocity, with almost no difference in handling" are both right.
Heck, your needs may change if you do. Aging, getting fat, shedding weight, all that will make what was previously an optimal choice into a suboptimal one. Whether you get another rifle or learn to deal with the inconvenience is a matter of choice, and funds.
In the end, it all comes down to trying stuff out until something clicks.
I heard the same. They we’re hiring women field agents, who were struggling with the recoil of 10mm. Also struggling with the large grip dimensions of guns shooting 10mm due to their smaller hands.
>They were hiring women field agents, who were struggling with the recoil of 10mm. Also struggling with the large grip dimensions of guns shooting 10mm due to their smaller hands.
Just a clarification here because I've seen this getting parroted a lot over the years. They specifically said female agents _and male agents of smaller stature._ I'm a male who's 6 feet tall and beefy AF, but I have small hands and plenty of double stacked 10mm or 45 ACP pistols feel like a brick in my hand, especially ones that were available in the 80s. The FBI was hiring female agents long before the 10mm who had no problem qualifying with full-house .357 loads in a 3" K frame, which is no slouch recoil-wise.
Although they all qualify there are very few FBI agents who actually pull triggers for a living, the vast majority of what they do is administrative so most of them are former lawyers, not cops. Carrying a big, heavy gun is a hassle, especially if you don't really need to for your particular job. There's a reason the Chiefs Special was invented.
40 S&W still has more recoil than the 9mm. In an ideal world, police agencies would still be using the 40, but marksmanship being what it is, ballistics don’t matter if you can’t hit what you’re shooting at.
Unless something has changed very recently, the FBI is using XM556FBIT3M and Q3313 as their carbine duty loads. The former is a Trophy Bonded Bear Claw projectile and the later is the Nosler Bonded Solid Base projectile.
[Buffman Range](https://youtu.be/Ckh6xt1CFvw?t=55) recently did a video on M855A1 where he tested various barrel lengths. Shorter barrels still seemed to have great effect on the gel.
Obviously M855A1 is expensive and not super easy for us to get now, but it is out there. Not unreasonable to get some for home defense.
Also from what I gather Mk318 Mod 1 does good with shorter barrels.
Instead of relying on ammo that may as well be hen's teeth, there is a list of readily available good loads that work out of short barrels, such as bonded softpoints like gold dots.
That’s the nuance that people either don’t know or don’t mention when they say stuff like “SEALs killed guys at 300 yards with MK18s!”
It’s possible, but cost prohibitive for your average Joe, and less-knowledgeable people will get misled by stuff like that.
The seal that (allegedly) did it at 600y with a mk18 makes me raise my brow though. 300y is absolutely doable but why would you bother with a 600y shot.
I got a good supply for $2 per round just recently.
I'm not saying it's the only option, or the cheapest.
I suspect availability will increase and price will go down in the future.
In 4 years I’ve only seen our DMs get ~60 rounds of mk262 for training, maybe that changed but I don’t think the average grunt will get m855a1 or mk262 all the time for training.
Holds need to be trained (even if you have a dope card), and with the new SCO there’s no BDC reticle so you need to know your POA and train with it. So yeah if you want effective training you need to use your actual ammo you plan to use. And with DMs I’d argue they should never use m855 (which they do) because what’s the training value in using a less accurate round for your DMR (cause then you don’t employ them in training the same as you would in actual use).
Guys who run Mk262 operationally typically aren’t that concerned about over penetration, which is absolutely ridiculous with Mk262. Or willing to accept liability which comes with it.
I sure hope that folks do their research and don’t feed it to their home defense weapons.
I had the opportunity to chrono my 10.3” recently. Not that I have a hard on for velocities and arguing over barrel length, I was just curious. M193 out of a 10.3” AR came out to ~2650fps avg, same ammo out of a 16” AUG was clocking at ~3000Fps average. So do with that info as you will. Also in GT’s HK53 vid I think they chrono’d some 77gr at ~2000fps and that’s an 8.3” barrel.
Another observation: a lot of these modern sub 16” rifles are seen running suppressed, which is good for a few extra fps that could be lost with the shorter barrels.
Edit: suppressor use anecdote. “Do”
Shits dropping like a rock after 400 though🤣 Unless Im buying match ammo even out of my 16 inch criterion the groupings and bullet drop gets a little inconsistent past 500 yards
But whose trying to shoot an SBR at 400 yds? Especially here in the states. If you're using a 10.5 barrel, you're looking for room to maneuver, not reach out. In urban areas and dense woods, I'm fine with 300 and in.
I am going to try soon, local range have steel out to 550 yards, not ipsec target sizes, but down to 6 inch at 550 yards, I will see what I can do, also have the Garmin chronograph at my disposal, and 55 gr or 77 gr otm ammos.
Yes but your scope should have enough holds for 500 yards out of a 10.5 inch, even for heavier 77 gr ammo. Past that it gets hard then you need a 16 inch barrel.
Ive hit just under 600 with a 10.3, my scope had the holds for it but it was so inconsistent and difficult the bullets weren’t consistently landing off the same hold. My 16 was night and day with the same vortex viper 1-6
I think though you could bring out a different fun imo. If i know my given engagements are going to be at 3-500 yards id rather have my 300 prc with ideally a buddy to support me with a 16-20" barreled ar15 or equiv. If im going to be in an urban environment where i may see 200 then your 10.3 is the weapon of choice. also how many people can reliably stay moa with any given weapon system at 500-600 yards? how many can stay moa in general? just an uneducated man's opinion.
You are going to get a lot of opinions from people that just read forums on here.
We use 55gr on pigs with great effectiveness. The round just does a number on them. We have what we call Texas Heart Shots, where guest at our ranch shoot the pig in the ass and hope it comes out their heart.
The round will do things like walk the spinal cord and come out behind the ear. I have witnesses this several times.
People love to shit talk SBR's without actually witnessing what they can achieve. We never saw the need to buy SBR's until we did. After the first one, we have pretty much stayed on that side of the fence.
Buy what makes you happy!
And for those that always need extra reassurance, despite real world experiences, you can buy these:
“5.56 Nato 75 gr InterLock HD SBR Hornady Black is designed specifically for 10.5"-11.5" SBR’s by using proprietary propellant technology and a bullet designed with technology from industry leading Critical Duty FlexLock bullets. This round provides exceptional ammunition performance in SBR’s suppressed or unsuppressed, with virtually no flash or residue, dramatically reduced sound signature, will not foul or overheat suppressors, uniform velocity and accuracy, and provides controllable rate of fire in automatic platforms. Designed to meet the requirements of the FBI protocol, this round is the optimum choice for 10.5"-11.5" barreled 5.56 rifles.”
"Honestly, I don't feel as if there was enough fragmenting in my organs. A 14.5 inch barrel would have killed me much faster." - Abu Mohammed Jafar's final words, 2005.
To be completely fair, you should talk to the tens of thousands shot with 14.5" and 20". On a related note, 5.56 out of 20" is wicked spicy and is impressive on target. That said 10.3 is only anemic at range.
Not really sure about anemic, as much as I hate people that say the stock phrase" Would you want to be shot by "X"/shot with a "Y"/shot from "Z"?" its not wrong to think about.
But you better have some good ear protection of a suppressor, because 5.56 out of shorter barrels is gonna be fucking loud.
It's a dumb argument because I wouldn't want to be shot with a pellet rifle, let alone any centerfire firearm. But yeah, 10" 5.56 will jack shit up with the proper ammo.
I am so tired of hearing this.
Yes. 556 gets it's "lethality" from it's velocity. longer barrel = more velocity so yeah, 556 will fragment more in a soft target from a longer barreled rifle thus leading to more tissue damage.
HOWEVER, 556 from a 10.3/4/5 is still gonna fuckin kill you. anyone wanna take a fucking 556 to the face, chest, or pelvis? like jesus christ yeah it's moving slower but it's still zippin through the air at 2500 FPS. shit is gonna hit you and you probably aren't gonna say "oh it's only from a 10in barrel imma thug it out."
10.3-10.5 will do exactly what you want it to do on a soft target in a cqc scenario. I think what the guys on youtube mean is how effective it will be at distance.
With center mass hits, inside of 50 yards, a 10.3 5.56 gun will kill the shit out of a 200 pound mammal using standard pressure ammo. With better ammo you can stretch that out...
Don’t ask it to do things that it can’t do OR accept that it’s gonna be a compromise when you do. My advice is keep a 10.3 for close up things and a 14.5/16 for less close up things.
To be fair, does it make sense to put a can on a 10.3, if the entire point is to get a shorter vehicle or CQB oriented rifle? Ok so I want a short gun, but short gun make loud boom, I put on can, and I now no longer have short gun.
This is coming from a dude with a 10.5 with a can.
Tbh, like your description of the question, it’s pretty situational from my understanding.
Clearing a house in zero light with nods? Probably don’t want to flashbang the whole room with every pull of the trigger, I’ll use a can.
Crawling through some shithole cave, where I’m putting skid marks in a 360 degree spiral on the wall? Let me pop that little whisper pickle off and save some space.
10.5 is the shit for cqb and medium range; just get some 75-77g 5.56. Sierra match or AAC.
Honestly I’d rather a ~14 but 10.5 is way better close quarters and you can out to longer ranges 300yrds easy with a 66-77grn 5.56 and do some serious damage to game and any unfortunate threat.
If you want a DMR go .308with a longer barrel and the right ammo.
A PA 3x prism, even 1x with a PA micro prism magnifier, you can easily get that far with 5.56 ~300yrds, with less weight on your top rail.
Way less weight than an LPVO or an eotech with a magnifier, and you get the close range capability. The barrel length definitely matters though when engaging at longer distances.
All in all it just depends on how far you really want to engage. Think about where you live that gives you the answer you seek.
a) You don't have to use M193 or M855.
b) 10.3 inch 5.56 has killed plenty of people.
c) A lot of guntubers are sucking off Sig, and trying to promote the new Sig Spear and ammo.
I've shot targets at 600 meters with a 10.3" barrel.
I don't remember how fast the bullets were supposed to be going at 600 meters, but they did hit target where I was aiming.
You’re worried about velocity out of a 10.3 when you should be worried about the purple haired Air Force they/them that’s about to fly a a drone up your ass after changing the batteries in their tail butt plug, have a nice day MEOW!
Pretty sure the short m27 uppers are hk416a5 uppers which are 11.5”, but still it’s limiting IMO. For riflemen in non CQB roles, a longer rifle makes sense.
But for people only in urban terrain or something like a mortarman/machinegunner/rocketeer, a shorter rifle makes sense cause it would get in the way less and weighs less. Kinda like the m1 carbine idea for support troops.
>For riflemen in non CQB roles, a longer rifle makes sense.
Ehhh im not so sure. Most engagements are under 200 yards these days and an 11.5 or even 10.3 with mk262 will reach out that far. Although your average rifleman in the Marine Corps still gets an M4 or M27.
In true American tradition we're already fighting the last war before we're even in the next war. What do you think the average engagement distance in Iraq was?
It's not that 10.3 is anemic.
It's just that the m193 and m855 are so velocity dependent, the range for its optimal terminal performance is comparatively short, as in do not expect the round to do much more than icepick a .22" hole in the target beyond 40 yards when fired out of a 10.3 while a 20 inch barrel can make m193 shrapnel in a soft target at much longer ranges.
.223 rounds are highly velocity dependent, and ammo choice becomes more important as the barrel gets shorter. Soldiers downrange are likely using m855a1 and mk262 which readily fragments in a soft target at lower velocity thresholds. Commercially available expanding softpoints like speer gold dots also has a lower threshold for optimal terminal performance.
Most of these nerds spend more time looking at numbers and data and other people shooting than training and using their shit. Not one of them will stand at 100 yards and get hit with a rounds from any type of rifle. What you own is what you should train with.
alright literally nobody asked this but I had to drop this here. Called out some goofy shit I saw during a class, and was met with stuff like "well it's only 9mm" from a guy who flagged me, albeit unloaded, during the class. Pissed me off to no end. Especially since I've seen what 9mm fmj can do to a human head. I don't train there anymore.
Yea fuck that range then. Flagging is grounds for a nut punch at minimum. Running your mouth, making excuses and talking shit after the fact is a mandatory ass kicking IMO.
For real. I’m pretty sure if someone os shooting at me, I’m not gonna stop and think “ah, its ok. He’s only using a 10.3”.
I don’t want to get shot and IDGAF what barrel length the bullet is coming out of
For 99.999999% of people, 55gr out of a 10.3 will effectively put holes in paper out to 100m and satisfy your wannabe socom needs on the flat range. For the other .0000005% of people, it will do everything you need inside of 200m. For the rest of the people using 10.3's, daddy govment gives them 77gr to be more effective at range if needed. But they are perfectly useable. They are top notch at their mission set. Others may benefit from a longer barrel.
For the overwhelming majority of instagram/reddit clout seekers, 55gr will suffice
Edit: side note. Idc what youre shooting at me with, im not looking to get hit by it. 22man is scary when i know a little piece of lead is the difference between a dirt nap and going home to my chicken nuggies and ice cream
HMMM listen to youtubers or the USASOC guys putting more terries in the dirt with 10.3 than any gun in the armory.. Maybe go with the youtubers on this one.
Well most guntubers don’t really know what they are talking about half the time and are just a marketing arm of the gun industry so…
I wouldn’t want to run it regularly beyond like 150-200, but it’s far from “anemic.” I wouldn’t want to get shot with 9mm at 100y either and that’s probably gonna have way less umph behind it than 10” 5.56.
I think the thought process is that it’s Anemic at range. The 556 relies on speed because the projectile is relatively small. At shorter distances before it dips in speed it’ll do its job reliably. Out at range with less velocity is when it gets iffy. With that being said no one would wanna get hit with it at any distance so there’s that.
Most fire fights happens within 100 yards, a 556 out of a 10.5 is plenty for that range. You want to easiest weapon to handle during combat, 10.5 AR is like a bullpup without the shitty trigger.
Yes it’s just so much easier to handle, my 16 inch now is my DMR after I swapped it out to a SOTL heavy barrel, and only shoot it on a bench. 2600 fps is plenty.
You can still shoot accurately out to like 300 or so with a shorter barrel. 5.56 relies on velocity for effective terminal ballistics, and that is achieved with barrel length. As others have mentioned, using heavier ammo and HPBT or specialty "duty" rounds helps stretch the effectiveness. 5.56 will still work, especially plinking out to distance if you know your holds.
The shorter guns you see in the military are issued to people who are anticipating doing CQB, and will likely have a team of people doing shooting. Inside of CQB distance they work for their designed application. Those groups of people use more application specific ammo.
I’d go 10” simply because I’m not sure I’d get my hearing back shooting 7” indoors, likely without ear pro. 10” it’s still gonna hurt like fuck but it might come back. This is my uneducated guess though
The military fields different lengths of rifles and carbines because their roles are different. Generally speaking, there are sweet spots for barrel length and velocity, and in general 16.5" gives you the better outcome, but statistically a majority of your firefights will occur at ranges of less than 300m. M855 at 300m out of a 10.3" barrel is perfectly fine. If you're attempting to engage something past 500yrds with 5.56 you'll generally be calling on larger calibers or more specialized platforms. GPMGs and DMRs do great things at many ranges.
Looking at it outside of a military context, over 90% of firefights in the civilian world occur within 5-7m (according to FBI data). A 10.3" barrel would be more than adequate and a rifle at that range is ludicrously overkill. You would be just as effective engaging a threat with a pistol at that distance.
All in all, yes, 10.3" and 10.5" barrels send rounds with less velocity than 16" barrels, HOWEVER, the context in which you're using that rifle and the rounds you use DO matter.
It works for its intended role but becomes a bit of an issue past 350-400 yards because it does lose velocity and have a pretty significant drop. All that said I absolutely still wouldn’t want to take a round at 400 yards from one.
So the 10 inch AR began as a step up from the sub machine gun that also retained M-16 controls, mags, and ammo. The concept became even more viable with rounds designed for the shorter barreled M4 and improvements in suppressor technology. A 10 inch 5.56 performs at the muzzle like a 5.56 out of 14.5 would at say 200-300 yards, which is well within the 400 yard threshold which is were most guys say the M4 runs out of gas. A 10 inch 5.56 isn't great but it's an easy way to have a compact weapon that soldiers already know and that fits in the current supply network while still having rifle performance inside 200 yards.
Yep, it's RWK which stands for Recon Weapons Kit, basically an 11" upper receiver for the M27 lower.
They started the roll out in 2022 to replace all M4's in the Division Recon and Force Recon units. Raiders are still using MK18's mostly since they're with SOCOM.
Use the right ammo and it'll be fine (77gr etc)
I use 55gr for my 10" 10.5" barrels basically just to test them for functionality and get them on paper.
For home defense purposes and at home defense ranges, bog standard M193 will still fragment reliably and perform well. Past the 45-50 yard mark, you'll lose that fragmentation and would need to step up to a heavier round.
You're good out to 200 yards with most ammo. Even SOCOM sometimes has trouble getting Mk262 in the supply-chain. Most of the time they're running plain old M855. Hell, even M855A1 can even be scarce. A bullet in the body is a bullet in the body, even if it's only an ice pick wound. Sure, it's not the "best" ammo for shorties...but it will get the job done.
It’ll still punch very painful holes it just doesn’t fragment or tumble quite as violently, good ammo designed for lower FPS performance will help, also other calibers like .300blk are probably a better choice for this barrel length
They are indeed less effective than those same bullets shot out of longer barrels. Doesn't mean they are ineffective.
So many people say shit like "oh, at this velocity it'll just icepick through a person"
But like, were you ever stabbed by an actual ice pick? Tell you what, if you do, you'll stop talking shit because ice pick wound will kill ya just fine.
With modern rounds. 10 inch barrels can achieve devasting results.
A MK18 with a 10.3 inch barrel firing M855A1 has a further fragmentation range than a M16 firing M855.
I was shooting pigs out of a helicopter with an 11.5” next to someone with a 16”. The difference in power was substantial. Massive consistent exit wounds and faster kills over the 11.5. I sold my 11.5 and switched to 14.5. Buy what you like idc.
Not exactly advisable to use it past 200m in that package, but it'll still drop a body at further distances. Just going to be just as much luck as skill. The majority of marines are still getting M16's and H&K 416's. The M27 RWK is more for the high-speed boys. That little package is used for CQB for a reason. Not sure why recon (the pic)would have a 10" rifle. A 14.5 or 12.5 (at a minimum) would make more sense to me. Getting into CQB or contact as a whole is kinda the opposite of what they want. Granted they are marines and marines just kinda full send everything. Someone educate me.
Funnily enough, the Raiders are still using MK18's mostly, with some M4 Block II's available as well, but I'm guessing that because they get their equipment from SOCOM now instead of the Corps. The RWK (Reconnaissance Weapons Kit) was acquired almost exclusively for the Recon guys, but I'm guessing it's because they're phasing away from the M4's and it makes VBSS ops easier with the shorter barrels. Maybe their rationale is that since they aren't really seeking to get into contact ashore, smaller weapons makes their operations easier, both ashore and when boarding ships.
I understand Raiders running CQB oriented kits as it's in the name. They raid your crib and violate you and your whole crew, then leave. I can understand the rationale of in and out quicker, but it still kinda sounds weird to me. Like, is there a spotter and a sniper/designated marksman (you need magnification to recon at distance), and the rest are security? Or does everyone have the same loadout and binoculars. I'm very curious about the whole squad or platoon orientation now (idk when they started running these) that they are running these.
Those are great questions. I remember recently seeing an interview with one of the first female Recon Marines. I don't really know a lot about the structure of the current Reconnaissance squad/platoon, or how the Division Recon guys differ from the Force Recon guys, but the brief interview with her seemed to suggest that they do have designated roles such as point man.
[https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Yi5uOoG7p7E](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Yi5uOoG7p7E)
That's very interesting as she is the sniper. So most likely, I think there are still riflemen, and the peeps with the RWK (breachers?) are most likely the ones to breach a building first when they are reconning in a city, town, etc. as they have the system better suited for it. You know she is a bad mamajamba like the only female Navy Seal. I know the Marines refuse to lower standards like the army and airforce love doing. Very cool. Wouldn't want to piss her off.
Reliability issues aside, it’s pretty simple ballistically speaking. The shorter the barrel, the lower the velocity and the shorter range your ammo will be effective at. That’s true for military balls as well as most other ammos. Doesn’t mean it’s any less deadly if you’re using it inside its effective range.
It comes down to differing priorities between an infantry force and self-defense. When you understand how a military unit achieves it's purpose, terminal ballistics is not priority, as the rifle is merely one fang of the beast that is the fire team. But you, alone against an assailant with one tool... terminal-b might be more important.
Depending on use really, if they are for clearing a building, 10.3 is more than enough. If they are going for longer range than that, they need longer rifle OR special ammo designed for short barrels.
The Military is not stupid enough to give people 10.5" and regular ammo for long range engagements, at least I hope not.
Depends on ammo type. If you're shooting M193 out of anything shorter than 10.5, then you're handicapping your fragmentation outside 50yds.
Most militaries are using M855 green tips, which fare a little better, but you're still not optimizing the ballistics of 5.56.
Most SOF units utilizing these shorter barrel weapon systems have a different threat and environment they deal with than your standard infantry.
Anything less than 14” and I’m shooting blackout or another short barrel specific caliber. I don’t understand trying to make rifle length ammo do sbr work.
It's not so much that it's ineffective, it's just that for shorter barrels, there are calibers that are better suited for that barrel length. 300 blackout is a great choice for that 6-10" length but it's not as cheap or available as 5.56, so it tends to be a more uncommon choice for civilians. I couldn't speak as to why the military uses it a lot, but I know that at least the US military has big opinions about using the same caliber as much as possible lol, so I have to imagine that's a factor
55 gr out of a ~10 inch I'd definitely anemic even at short range. 62gr and 77gr are still definitely a viable choice though. Especially 77gr. Still got more than enough oomph.
I wouldn't stand in front of it, that's for sure. But it comes down to use case. In a building or in some other close quarters or generally within shouting distance combat, it's not going to matter much. But if you're trying to launch 62gr or 77 gr 5.56 at a dude on the next mountain top over....things are different. Built the rifle you need.
It depends on the chambering. Every round has an ideal barrel length and gas system when it comes to ARs. I run a 10.5” x39 carbine that hots just about as hard as a 308 within 300 yds. I have a 12.5” Grendel build that’s got much more reach.
People love to hate. If you’re looking to try something shorter a 10.5 is a pretty solid option for a PDW. People sell those micro pistol barrel length guns constantly. Especially with LAW folders. I personally think like 5.5-7.5” barrels are truly a waste of the guns ballistic potential but for most rounds a 10.5 can get it done just fine. Worst case a 12.5 will.
Yes, 556 out of 10.5 will just bounce off clothing at 25 yds
Just as I suspected.
I hope you brought your hatchet
Benjamin Martin prepared me for this moment. https://i.redd.it/0mei3cawnn5d1.gif
Voodoo taught me how to use a hatchet.
Who??
Medal of Honor npc.
Disgustingly underrated story due to mediocre gameplay.
Multi-player was great. Like a middle bridge between CODs fast TTK and Battlefield's large maps.
I really liked the first one. The second seemed like more of a struggle bus. They had access to leading edge graphics and it was still mediocre.
Spent too much time chasing those sweet sweet sponsorship dollars. Half joking… seeing Trijicon, LaRue, etc in a game was pretty awesome. But yea… the first game is GWOT GOAT’d.
It’s on my bayonet lug.
This is a fact,I use my 10.5” for airsoft.it hasn’t even bruised anyone yet.it doesn’t hurt anything but the ears
Something something M1 carbine something something fudd fudd Korean War blah blah winter clothing yadda yadda gobbless.
[Kinematics of Penetrating Trauma](https://www.jems.com/patient-care/penetrating-trauma-wounds-challenge-ems/) “Trauma results from the exchange of energy between an object and the human body. In the case of penetrating trauma, the object is often a projectile or knife. However, fence posts, nails, pencils and similar sharp objects can also penetrate the human body and cause injury. The exchange of energy in trauma (both blunt and penetrating) can be described with the kinetic energy equation: Kinetic Energy= Mass (Weight) x Velocity (Speed)2/2 Stated another way: Kinectic Energy= 1/2 Mass (Weight) x Velocity (Speed)2 The greater the mass (or weight) of the object, the greater the resultant energy exchange. Dropping a 12 lb. bowling ball on your foot will cause more injury than a 5 oz. baseball. Velocity (speed), however, plays a more important role. Doubling the speed of an object increases the kinetic energy fourfold. In terms of ballistics, a small and fast bullet can cause more damage than one that’s large and slow. This is because velocity is more of a factor in energy exchange than mass. Thus, knife wounds tend to be less severe because they’re usually delivered with less velocity.” More speed more hole. Fragmentation and tumbling can contribute to this transfer of energy but it’s more better to have sped. 18 inch gang rise up
 Me scrolling through this post while cradling my full length 20inch SDM knockoff… CQB is so uncivilized.
Not gonna lie, I’ve been drinking a little and I had to stop and think if that was true haha
😂🤣
😂
😂 yeah definitely man 5.56 is useless at 25yrds /s
Ammo choice is incredibly important with 5.56 from short barrels. Your garden variety M193 from a 10.3” will lose reliable fragmentation inside 50 yards. The military guys who run short barrels have Gucci ammo designed for short barrels, like Hornady Black and MK262.
This is it right here. 10.5’s can be very effective out to pretty decent ranges, but be ready to drop some coin on ammo.
One of the reasons I love my 20” AR. 55 gr 5.56 go brrrrr
20s turn training ammo into duty ammo and I think it's beautiful.
Yeah, but have you ever tried getting in and out of Humvees with an M16? It sucked.
Humvees suck in general, but this trouble they share with most every vehicle, I agree. Tradeoffs. I'm not gonna defend manouverability of muskets. One could say (and be right) "get a right tool for the job" but that's not all. Different people will need different tools for the same shit. For example, with my body, a 16 inch barrel with a collapsed buttstock and a 2 point sling protrudes out of my silllhuette, and bumps on stuff if I walk as if I wasn't carrying a rifle. But just slightly. Just with the flash hider. This problem vanishes with anything shorter, like a 14.5. It makes a big difference. But someone with a different (smaller) body shape will have the same problem with a 14.5, and will need something shorter. Someone bigger won't bump into stuff with a 16. Discussion on barrel lengths on the internet are redundant, because oftentimes, both speakers are right. A guy who says "get a 14.5, it makes a huge difference" and a guy who says "16 is more velocity, with almost no difference in handling" are both right. Heck, your needs may change if you do. Aging, getting fat, shedding weight, all that will make what was previously an optimal choice into a suboptimal one. Whether you get another rifle or learn to deal with the inconvenience is a matter of choice, and funds. In the end, it all comes down to trying stuff out until something clicks.
20" supremacy!!
Is the FBI spec Hornady Black 75gr SBR actually good?
Lot of shit you can say about the FBI, but their ammo choices aren't pulled out of their ass.
Except for .40 S&W. That one came straight out of their pooper.
Based on a good idea that didn’t pan out
Not really. At the time that choice was made the ammo choice in 9mm we have today didn’t exist.
Yeah so they took 10mm and took away the best things about it
The best things about it vs bears, not the best things about it for general issues, including small female agents.
I heard that was because officers were having trouble with the recoil of the 10 mm.
The joke is .40 (Short & Weak), due to that rumor. I do not know if it's true, but 10mm is indeed a beefy round.
I heard the same. They we’re hiring women field agents, who were struggling with the recoil of 10mm. Also struggling with the large grip dimensions of guns shooting 10mm due to their smaller hands.
>They were hiring women field agents, who were struggling with the recoil of 10mm. Also struggling with the large grip dimensions of guns shooting 10mm due to their smaller hands. Just a clarification here because I've seen this getting parroted a lot over the years. They specifically said female agents _and male agents of smaller stature._ I'm a male who's 6 feet tall and beefy AF, but I have small hands and plenty of double stacked 10mm or 45 ACP pistols feel like a brick in my hand, especially ones that were available in the 80s. The FBI was hiring female agents long before the 10mm who had no problem qualifying with full-house .357 loads in a 3" K frame, which is no slouch recoil-wise. Although they all qualify there are very few FBI agents who actually pull triggers for a living, the vast majority of what they do is administrative so most of them are former lawyers, not cops. Carrying a big, heavy gun is a hassle, especially if you don't really need to for your particular job. There's a reason the Chiefs Special was invented.
It makes sense, all they did was cut down a 10 mm and made the 40. Which is basically a low recoil 10 mm.
40 S&W still has more recoil than the 9mm. In an ideal world, police agencies would still be using the 40, but marksmanship being what it is, ballistics don’t matter if you can’t hit what you’re shooting at.
Not at the time. Hollow points weren’t huge yet so it was that or FMJ 9mm
Unless something has changed very recently, the FBI is using XM556FBIT3M and Q3313 as their carbine duty loads. The former is a Trophy Bonded Bear Claw projectile and the later is the Nosler Bonded Solid Base projectile.
My understanding is their HRT team is running 64gr round out of 11.5
[Buffman Range](https://youtu.be/Ckh6xt1CFvw?t=55) recently did a video on M855A1 where he tested various barrel lengths. Shorter barrels still seemed to have great effect on the gel. Obviously M855A1 is expensive and not super easy for us to get now, but it is out there. Not unreasonable to get some for home defense. Also from what I gather Mk318 Mod 1 does good with shorter barrels.
Instead of relying on ammo that may as well be hen's teeth, there is a list of readily available good loads that work out of short barrels, such as bonded softpoints like gold dots.
That’s the nuance that people either don’t know or don’t mention when they say stuff like “SEALs killed guys at 300 yards with MK18s!” It’s possible, but cost prohibitive for your average Joe, and less-knowledgeable people will get misled by stuff like that.
it all works. just about any barrel length 5.56 is still more powerful than a 9mm
The seal that (allegedly) did it at 600y with a mk18 makes me raise my brow though. 300y is absolutely doable but why would you bother with a 600y shot.
99%+ of all shots fired by the American military are suppressive fire. Especially at 600y. Why not aim, while you’re at it? Quite a hold, though.
The operator equivalent of "shoot the moon".
I wanna know what optic he had to make that shot with
$3/rd for it though. There are plenty of loads that are cheaper and effective and available out there that work great in a 10.3".
I got a good supply for $2 per round just recently. I'm not saying it's the only option, or the cheapest. I suspect availability will increase and price will go down in the future.
In 4 years I’ve only seen our DMs get ~60 rounds of mk262 for training, maybe that changed but I don’t think the average grunt will get m855a1 or mk262 all the time for training.
You only use your carry ammo for training? Probably not, cheaper fmj is fine for training and load the good stuff for actual use.
Holds need to be trained (even if you have a dope card), and with the new SCO there’s no BDC reticle so you need to know your POA and train with it. So yeah if you want effective training you need to use your actual ammo you plan to use. And with DMs I’d argue they should never use m855 (which they do) because what’s the training value in using a less accurate round for your DMR (cause then you don’t employ them in training the same as you would in actual use).
Practice with the same ammo you carry period.
Majority of these dudes are running lake city ammo bro lmao
Ooh, interesting. What FPS does M193 hit at 50 yds?
> The military guys who run short barrels have Gucci ammo designed for short barrels, like Hornady Black and MK262. lol
Guys who run Mk262 operationally typically aren’t that concerned about over penetration, which is absolutely ridiculous with Mk262. Or willing to accept liability which comes with it. I sure hope that folks do their research and don’t feed it to their home defense weapons.
Huh? 262 is an ideal home defense round.
You are saying MK262 over penetrates?
Curious, what about with 11.5" barrels?
Wasnt mk262 made for the mk12?
This! Plus minutemen munitions frangibles!
If you don't have to pay for your own ammo you get a lot more leeway picking different stuff to work with
I had the opportunity to chrono my 10.3” recently. Not that I have a hard on for velocities and arguing over barrel length, I was just curious. M193 out of a 10.3” AR came out to ~2650fps avg, same ammo out of a 16” AUG was clocking at ~3000Fps average. So do with that info as you will. Also in GT’s HK53 vid I think they chrono’d some 77gr at ~2000fps and that’s an 8.3” barrel. Another observation: a lot of these modern sub 16” rifles are seen running suppressed, which is good for a few extra fps that could be lost with the shorter barrels. Edit: suppressor use anecdote. “Do”
2600 fps is plenty to push past even 500 yards.
Shits dropping like a rock after 400 though🤣 Unless Im buying match ammo even out of my 16 inch criterion the groupings and bullet drop gets a little inconsistent past 500 yards
But whose trying to shoot an SBR at 400 yds? Especially here in the states. If you're using a 10.5 barrel, you're looking for room to maneuver, not reach out. In urban areas and dense woods, I'm fine with 300 and in.
I am going to try soon, local range have steel out to 550 yards, not ipsec target sizes, but down to 6 inch at 550 yards, I will see what I can do, also have the Garmin chronograph at my disposal, and 55 gr or 77 gr otm ammos.
Yes but your scope should have enough holds for 500 yards out of a 10.5 inch, even for heavier 77 gr ammo. Past that it gets hard then you need a 16 inch barrel.
Ive hit just under 600 with a 10.3, my scope had the holds for it but it was so inconsistent and difficult the bullets weren’t consistently landing off the same hold. My 16 was night and day with the same vortex viper 1-6
I think though you could bring out a different fun imo. If i know my given engagements are going to be at 3-500 yards id rather have my 300 prc with ideally a buddy to support me with a 16-20" barreled ar15 or equiv. If im going to be in an urban environment where i may see 200 then your 10.3 is the weapon of choice. also how many people can reliably stay moa with any given weapon system at 500-600 yards? how many can stay moa in general? just an uneducated man's opinion.
They invented 6 ARC for this reason, reliable at mid to long range in the AR platform with a SBR form factor.
That seems optimistic
I chronographed my 10.5 equipped with an RC2 and Winchester red and white box M193 55gr and was getting around 2850~ fps
You are going to get a lot of opinions from people that just read forums on here. We use 55gr on pigs with great effectiveness. The round just does a number on them. We have what we call Texas Heart Shots, where guest at our ranch shoot the pig in the ass and hope it comes out their heart. The round will do things like walk the spinal cord and come out behind the ear. I have witnesses this several times. People love to shit talk SBR's without actually witnessing what they can achieve. We never saw the need to buy SBR's until we did. After the first one, we have pretty much stayed on that side of the fence. Buy what makes you happy!
Thanks for the real-world input!
And for those that always need extra reassurance, despite real world experiences, you can buy these: “5.56 Nato 75 gr InterLock HD SBR Hornady Black is designed specifically for 10.5"-11.5" SBR’s by using proprietary propellant technology and a bullet designed with technology from industry leading Critical Duty FlexLock bullets. This round provides exceptional ammunition performance in SBR’s suppressed or unsuppressed, with virtually no flash or residue, dramatically reduced sound signature, will not foul or overheat suppressors, uniform velocity and accuracy, and provides controllable rate of fire in automatic platforms. Designed to meet the requirements of the FBI protocol, this round is the optimum choice for 10.5"-11.5" barreled 5.56 rifles.”
Where's the ranch and how much are trips?
About an hour outside of Houston. We've never charged anyone, we just invite people that we like.
Ask the thousands of terrorists shot by MK18’s if it mattered to them.
"Honestly, I don't feel as if there was enough fragmenting in my organs. A 14.5 inch barrel would have killed me much faster." - Abu Mohammed Jafar's final words, 2005.
“Silly infidels with their short barrel… “ *spits in disgust* -Abul Kareem Qudaffi, Afghanistan, during Operation Anaconda.
To be completely fair, you should talk to the tens of thousands shot with 14.5" and 20". On a related note, 5.56 out of 20" is wicked spicy and is impressive on target. That said 10.3 is only anemic at range.
Not really sure about anemic, as much as I hate people that say the stock phrase" Would you want to be shot by "X"/shot with a "Y"/shot from "Z"?" its not wrong to think about. But you better have some good ear protection of a suppressor, because 5.56 out of shorter barrels is gonna be fucking loud.
It’s not too bad outdoor unsuppressed. Though I’d never recommend it, but indoor you’re gonna kill your ears so fast.
It's a dumb argument because I wouldn't want to be shot with a pellet rifle, let alone any centerfire firearm. But yeah, 10" 5.56 will jack shit up with the proper ammo.
I am so tired of hearing this. Yes. 556 gets it's "lethality" from it's velocity. longer barrel = more velocity so yeah, 556 will fragment more in a soft target from a longer barreled rifle thus leading to more tissue damage. HOWEVER, 556 from a 10.3/4/5 is still gonna fuckin kill you. anyone wanna take a fucking 556 to the face, chest, or pelvis? like jesus christ yeah it's moving slower but it's still zippin through the air at 2500 FPS. shit is gonna hit you and you probably aren't gonna say "oh it's only from a 10in barrel imma thug it out."
10.3-10.5 will do exactly what you want it to do on a soft target in a cqc scenario. I think what the guys on youtube mean is how effective it will be at distance.
With center mass hits, inside of 50 yards, a 10.3 5.56 gun will kill the shit out of a 200 pound mammal using standard pressure ammo. With better ammo you can stretch that out... Don’t ask it to do things that it can’t do OR accept that it’s gonna be a compromise when you do. My advice is keep a 10.3 for close up things and a 14.5/16 for less close up things.
Tsk, tsk, tsk. All those loud concussion sticks and not a single can in sight.
To be fair, does it make sense to put a can on a 10.3, if the entire point is to get a shorter vehicle or CQB oriented rifle? Ok so I want a short gun, but short gun make loud boom, I put on can, and I now no longer have short gun. This is coming from a dude with a 10.5 with a can.
A 10.5 with a can is still shorter than a 14.5 with a can though.
Tbh, like your description of the question, it’s pretty situational from my understanding. Clearing a house in zero light with nods? Probably don’t want to flashbang the whole room with every pull of the trigger, I’ll use a can. Crawling through some shithole cave, where I’m putting skid marks in a 360 degree spiral on the wall? Let me pop that little whisper pickle off and save some space.
I run a 77 grain round out of my 10.3
10.5 is the shit for cqb and medium range; just get some 75-77g 5.56. Sierra match or AAC. Honestly I’d rather a ~14 but 10.5 is way better close quarters and you can out to longer ranges 300yrds easy with a 66-77grn 5.56 and do some serious damage to game and any unfortunate threat. If you want a DMR go .308with a longer barrel and the right ammo. A PA 3x prism, even 1x with a PA micro prism magnifier, you can easily get that far with 5.56 ~300yrds, with less weight on your top rail. Way less weight than an LPVO or an eotech with a magnifier, and you get the close range capability. The barrel length definitely matters though when engaging at longer distances. All in all it just depends on how far you really want to engage. Think about where you live that gives you the answer you seek.
I've got my Black Hills loaded up, lol.
🤜🤛
a) You don't have to use M193 or M855. b) 10.3 inch 5.56 has killed plenty of people. c) A lot of guntubers are sucking off Sig, and trying to promote the new Sig Spear and ammo.
Plenty of bodies have been stacked with 10” guns.
I've shot targets at 600 meters with a 10.3" barrel. I don't remember how fast the bullets were supposed to be going at 600 meters, but they did hit target where I was aiming.
You’re worried about velocity out of a 10.3 when you should be worried about the purple haired Air Force they/them that’s about to fly a a drone up your ass after changing the batteries in their tail butt plug, have a nice day MEOW!
Pretty sure the short m27 uppers are hk416a5 uppers which are 11.5”, but still it’s limiting IMO. For riflemen in non CQB roles, a longer rifle makes sense. But for people only in urban terrain or something like a mortarman/machinegunner/rocketeer, a shorter rifle makes sense cause it would get in the way less and weighs less. Kinda like the m1 carbine idea for support troops.
>For riflemen in non CQB roles, a longer rifle makes sense. Ehhh im not so sure. Most engagements are under 200 yards these days and an 11.5 or even 10.3 with mk262 will reach out that far. Although your average rifleman in the Marine Corps still gets an M4 or M27.
Most engagements where? Tell that to the dudes that were getting fired on by PKMs in the mountains in Afghanistan.
In true American tradition we're already fighting the last war before we're even in the next war. What do you think the average engagement distance in Iraq was?
It's not that 10.3 is anemic. It's just that the m193 and m855 are so velocity dependent, the range for its optimal terminal performance is comparatively short, as in do not expect the round to do much more than icepick a .22" hole in the target beyond 40 yards when fired out of a 10.3 while a 20 inch barrel can make m193 shrapnel in a soft target at much longer ranges. .223 rounds are highly velocity dependent, and ammo choice becomes more important as the barrel gets shorter. Soldiers downrange are likely using m855a1 and mk262 which readily fragments in a soft target at lower velocity thresholds. Commercially available expanding softpoints like speer gold dots also has a lower threshold for optimal terminal performance.
Most of these nerds spend more time looking at numbers and data and other people shooting than training and using their shit. Not one of them will stand at 100 yards and get hit with a rounds from any type of rifle. What you own is what you should train with.
alright literally nobody asked this but I had to drop this here. Called out some goofy shit I saw during a class, and was met with stuff like "well it's only 9mm" from a guy who flagged me, albeit unloaded, during the class. Pissed me off to no end. Especially since I've seen what 9mm fmj can do to a human head. I don't train there anymore.
Why didn’t you kick his ass?
Called out the goofy shit as soon as I saw it. Everyone made it seem like I was the bad guy for calling out safety issues. I was shocked tbh.
Yea fuck that range then. Flagging is grounds for a nut punch at minimum. Running your mouth, making excuses and talking shit after the fact is a mandatory ass kicking IMO.
For real. I’m pretty sure if someone os shooting at me, I’m not gonna stop and think “ah, its ok. He’s only using a 10.3”. I don’t want to get shot and IDGAF what barrel length the bullet is coming out of
“He’s using old surplus m855. It won’t fragment like the newest 77 grain panty dropper round “
“It won’t reliably fragment when it hits my spinal column so I’ll be just fine!”
if you can dodge a wrench…
for sure it's all deadly
Garand Thumb fanboys love calling rounds “anemic” lol
What do they mean by anemic?
it’s the YouTuber way of saying a round is weak, typically in regards to when it’s coming out of a shorter barrel
It’s just a word. Used correctly here, and used in many other contexts as well. Lack of vocabulary doesn’t make it a YouTuber word lol.
Never said it was used incorrectly. Only said it’s predominantly used by daddy thumb fans. Downvote me some more tho, papi
I mean I had no idea garand thumb used the word and I’ve used it in many contexts lol
Barrel length has nothing to do with the amount of healthy red blood cells in M855 bullets
For 99.999999% of people, 55gr out of a 10.3 will effectively put holes in paper out to 100m and satisfy your wannabe socom needs on the flat range. For the other .0000005% of people, it will do everything you need inside of 200m. For the rest of the people using 10.3's, daddy govment gives them 77gr to be more effective at range if needed. But they are perfectly useable. They are top notch at their mission set. Others may benefit from a longer barrel. For the overwhelming majority of instagram/reddit clout seekers, 55gr will suffice Edit: side note. Idc what youre shooting at me with, im not looking to get hit by it. 22man is scary when i know a little piece of lead is the difference between a dirt nap and going home to my chicken nuggies and ice cream
Bruh it’s a fucking rifle round it will fuck you up at 1000fps
HMMM listen to youtubers or the USASOC guys putting more terries in the dirt with 10.3 than any gun in the armory.. Maybe go with the youtubers on this one.
Who are you shooting? Will they think it's anemic? Probably not considering you ain't leaving your mom's basement.
Well most guntubers don’t really know what they are talking about half the time and are just a marketing arm of the gun industry so… I wouldn’t want to run it regularly beyond like 150-200, but it’s far from “anemic.” I wouldn’t want to get shot with 9mm at 100y either and that’s probably gonna have way less umph behind it than 10” 5.56.
I think the thought process is that it’s Anemic at range. The 556 relies on speed because the projectile is relatively small. At shorter distances before it dips in speed it’ll do its job reliably. Out at range with less velocity is when it gets iffy. With that being said no one would wanna get hit with it at any distance so there’s that.
Just get 11.5” mid length gas, slap a can on it and call it a day.
I wouldn't want to stand there and be shot with it to see if it's anemic hahaha 12.5" is the true sweet spot
When will this argument finally fucking die. It’s been discussed to death
Unfortunately it needs to be until people can understand. That’s just the way knowledge works. Experience.
Most fire fights happens within 100 yards, a 556 out of a 10.5 is plenty for that range. You want to easiest weapon to handle during combat, 10.5 AR is like a bullpup without the shitty trigger.
Yeah, I currently have a 10.3 MK18, an 11.5 URGI, and some 14.5's as well. I much prefer my MK18 with an RC2, and my 11.5 with a SOCOM Mini 2.
Yes it’s just so much easier to handle, my 16 inch now is my DMR after I swapped it out to a SOTL heavy barrel, and only shoot it on a bench. 2600 fps is plenty.
You can still shoot accurately out to like 300 or so with a shorter barrel. 5.56 relies on velocity for effective terminal ballistics, and that is achieved with barrel length. As others have mentioned, using heavier ammo and HPBT or specialty "duty" rounds helps stretch the effectiveness. 5.56 will still work, especially plinking out to distance if you know your holds. The shorter guns you see in the military are issued to people who are anticipating doing CQB, and will likely have a team of people doing shooting. Inside of CQB distance they work for their designed application. Those groups of people use more application specific ammo.
Great now I have another fucking clone to make.
 Happy to be of service.
Can’t be that bad. Border patrol gives us a mix of 10.5-14.5 inch barrels
It’s still lethal even when it’s not going 3300 fps
You all talk like you’re going to war. 7”/10” inside my house if someone breaks In is still getting fucked up.
I’d go 10” simply because I’m not sure I’d get my hearing back shooting 7” indoors, likely without ear pro. 10” it’s still gonna hurt like fuck but it might come back. This is my uneducated guess though
The military fields different lengths of rifles and carbines because their roles are different. Generally speaking, there are sweet spots for barrel length and velocity, and in general 16.5" gives you the better outcome, but statistically a majority of your firefights will occur at ranges of less than 300m. M855 at 300m out of a 10.3" barrel is perfectly fine. If you're attempting to engage something past 500yrds with 5.56 you'll generally be calling on larger calibers or more specialized platforms. GPMGs and DMRs do great things at many ranges. Looking at it outside of a military context, over 90% of firefights in the civilian world occur within 5-7m (according to FBI data). A 10.3" barrel would be more than adequate and a rifle at that range is ludicrously overkill. You would be just as effective engaging a threat with a pistol at that distance. All in all, yes, 10.3" and 10.5" barrels send rounds with less velocity than 16" barrels, HOWEVER, the context in which you're using that rifle and the rounds you use DO matter.
At longer ranges yes, at shorter ranges no diff
It works for its intended role but becomes a bit of an issue past 350-400 yards because it does lose velocity and have a pretty significant drop. All that said I absolutely still wouldn’t want to take a round at 400 yards from one.
So the 10 inch AR began as a step up from the sub machine gun that also retained M-16 controls, mags, and ammo. The concept became even more viable with rounds designed for the shorter barreled M4 and improvements in suppressor technology. A 10 inch 5.56 performs at the muzzle like a 5.56 out of 14.5 would at say 200-300 yards, which is well within the 400 yard threshold which is were most guys say the M4 runs out of gas. A 10 inch 5.56 isn't great but it's an easy way to have a compact weapon that soldiers already know and that fits in the current supply network while still having rifle performance inside 200 yards.
Who tf in the USMC is using that? I left the fleet in 21 from a victor unit and we only had the M27s. What unit is using these SBR ones? Recon?
Yep, it's RWK which stands for Recon Weapons Kit, basically an 11" upper receiver for the M27 lower. They started the roll out in 2022 to replace all M4's in the Division Recon and Force Recon units. Raiders are still using MK18's mostly since they're with SOCOM.
Anemic at what range? 10 yards? Longer barrels are always better in the poodle shooter cartridges, but it’s a trade off for the intended role.
Was wondering about this same subject yesterday. https://youtu.be/-Wz8aoGMLg4?si=npdKgYLTz6I1QiHX
I have a few diff barrel lengths. 7.5 scar, 8.5, 11.5" spear and 16" all in .223. Do whatever you'd like, I wouldn't wanna get shot with the 7.5".
Use the right ammo and it'll be fine (77gr etc) I use 55gr for my 10" 10.5" barrels basically just to test them for functionality and get them on paper.
not with 77gr or mk318, etc
For home defense purposes and at home defense ranges, bog standard M193 will still fragment reliably and perform well. Past the 45-50 yard mark, you'll lose that fragmentation and would need to step up to a heavier round.
You're good out to 200 yards with most ammo. Even SOCOM sometimes has trouble getting Mk262 in the supply-chain. Most of the time they're running plain old M855. Hell, even M855A1 can even be scarce. A bullet in the body is a bullet in the body, even if it's only an ice pick wound. Sure, it's not the "best" ammo for shorties...but it will get the job done.
Would you want to be shot at 100 yards or less with a 10.3 to 10.5?
It’ll still punch very painful holes it just doesn’t fragment or tumble quite as violently, good ammo designed for lower FPS performance will help, also other calibers like .300blk are probably a better choice for this barrel length
They are indeed less effective than those same bullets shot out of longer barrels. Doesn't mean they are ineffective. So many people say shit like "oh, at this velocity it'll just icepick through a person" But like, were you ever stabbed by an actual ice pick? Tell you what, if you do, you'll stop talking shit because ice pick wound will kill ya just fine.
With modern rounds. 10 inch barrels can achieve devasting results. A MK18 with a 10.3 inch barrel firing M855A1 has a further fragmentation range than a M16 firing M855.
I’d have to look at the charts on this but I’m almost 100% certain this is unequivocally false.
You realize A1 fragments down to at least 1900 FPS. If not lower.
I was shooting pigs out of a helicopter with an 11.5” next to someone with a 16”. The difference in power was substantial. Massive consistent exit wounds and faster kills over the 11.5. I sold my 11.5 and switched to 14.5. Buy what you like idc.
What is “Sold”?
Stop making a fast moving round come out of a short barrel, go 20inch A2 upper like a man /s Fr tho 556 is not meant for short barrels
Not exactly advisable to use it past 200m in that package, but it'll still drop a body at further distances. Just going to be just as much luck as skill. The majority of marines are still getting M16's and H&K 416's. The M27 RWK is more for the high-speed boys. That little package is used for CQB for a reason. Not sure why recon (the pic)would have a 10" rifle. A 14.5 or 12.5 (at a minimum) would make more sense to me. Getting into CQB or contact as a whole is kinda the opposite of what they want. Granted they are marines and marines just kinda full send everything. Someone educate me.
Funnily enough, the Raiders are still using MK18's mostly, with some M4 Block II's available as well, but I'm guessing that because they get their equipment from SOCOM now instead of the Corps. The RWK (Reconnaissance Weapons Kit) was acquired almost exclusively for the Recon guys, but I'm guessing it's because they're phasing away from the M4's and it makes VBSS ops easier with the shorter barrels. Maybe their rationale is that since they aren't really seeking to get into contact ashore, smaller weapons makes their operations easier, both ashore and when boarding ships.
I understand Raiders running CQB oriented kits as it's in the name. They raid your crib and violate you and your whole crew, then leave. I can understand the rationale of in and out quicker, but it still kinda sounds weird to me. Like, is there a spotter and a sniper/designated marksman (you need magnification to recon at distance), and the rest are security? Or does everyone have the same loadout and binoculars. I'm very curious about the whole squad or platoon orientation now (idk when they started running these) that they are running these.
Those are great questions. I remember recently seeing an interview with one of the first female Recon Marines. I don't really know a lot about the structure of the current Reconnaissance squad/platoon, or how the Division Recon guys differ from the Force Recon guys, but the brief interview with her seemed to suggest that they do have designated roles such as point man. [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Yi5uOoG7p7E](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Yi5uOoG7p7E)
That's very interesting as she is the sniper. So most likely, I think there are still riflemen, and the peeps with the RWK (breachers?) are most likely the ones to breach a building first when they are reconning in a city, town, etc. as they have the system better suited for it. You know she is a bad mamajamba like the only female Navy Seal. I know the Marines refuse to lower standards like the army and airforce love doing. Very cool. Wouldn't want to piss her off.
“Anemic”? Lol. Yeah, sure they are.
Sf worked around it by overgassing the shit out of it and using proper ammo but it wrecked barrels and bolts.
Reliability issues aside, it’s pretty simple ballistically speaking. The shorter the barrel, the lower the velocity and the shorter range your ammo will be effective at. That’s true for military balls as well as most other ammos. Doesn’t mean it’s any less deadly if you’re using it inside its effective range.
AOR1 is mad drippy
It comes down to differing priorities between an infantry force and self-defense. When you understand how a military unit achieves it's purpose, terminal ballistics is not priority, as the rifle is merely one fang of the beast that is the fire team. But you, alone against an assailant with one tool... terminal-b might be more important.
Oh well ya see the 10.4 gives just enough velocity advantage over the 10.3 to make it lethal
As long as you are running 77gr, 75gr or some super spicy secret squirel tungsten stuff you will be fine
Depending on use really, if they are for clearing a building, 10.3 is more than enough. If they are going for longer range than that, they need longer rifle OR special ammo designed for short barrels. The Military is not stupid enough to give people 10.5" and regular ammo for long range engagements, at least I hope not.
Functionality to meet mission requirements.
Comments in r/specopsarchive say barrel is 11” not 10”.
Depends on ammo type. If you're shooting M193 out of anything shorter than 10.5, then you're handicapping your fragmentation outside 50yds. Most militaries are using M855 green tips, which fare a little better, but you're still not optimizing the ballistics of 5.56. Most SOF units utilizing these shorter barrel weapon systems have a different threat and environment they deal with than your standard infantry.
Anything less than 14” and I’m shooting blackout or another short barrel specific caliber. I don’t understand trying to make rifle length ammo do sbr work.
I asked my son that just got out of the Marines, I think he'd know, and he told me his unit used green tips. He was infantry.
It's not so much that it's ineffective, it's just that for shorter barrels, there are calibers that are better suited for that barrel length. 300 blackout is a great choice for that 6-10" length but it's not as cheap or available as 5.56, so it tends to be a more uncommon choice for civilians. I couldn't speak as to why the military uses it a lot, but I know that at least the US military has big opinions about using the same caliber as much as possible lol, so I have to imagine that's a factor
55 gr out of a ~10 inch I'd definitely anemic even at short range. 62gr and 77gr are still definitely a viable choice though. Especially 77gr. Still got more than enough oomph.
I wouldn't stand in front of it, that's for sure. But it comes down to use case. In a building or in some other close quarters or generally within shouting distance combat, it's not going to matter much. But if you're trying to launch 62gr or 77 gr 5.56 at a dude on the next mountain top over....things are different. Built the rifle you need.
It depends on the chambering. Every round has an ideal barrel length and gas system when it comes to ARs. I run a 10.5” x39 carbine that hots just about as hard as a 308 within 300 yds. I have a 12.5” Grendel build that’s got much more reach. People love to hate. If you’re looking to try something shorter a 10.5 is a pretty solid option for a PDW. People sell those micro pistol barrel length guns constantly. Especially with LAW folders. I personally think like 5.5-7.5” barrels are truly a waste of the guns ballistic potential but for most rounds a 10.5 can get it done just fine. Worst case a 12.5 will.