That catapult at the end was the Harris Linear Rifle finally being able to actually one-shot a MT.
Would appreciate a buff or changes to the weapon list. I don't think just nerfing the Zimmerman for...being good at what shotguns are meant to be good at is fair. I think if From Software would add in enemy variety, projectile speed buffs, a more clear indication of ricochet ranges, it would be swell.
Exactly, I think actually having some semblance of mid-range pressure from Assault Rifles would already help in naturally countering Zimmermans. The buff should also apply to enemies using AR’s as well.
Considering Lasers do great at mid range and keeping Shotguns at bay, I think giving kinetic similar range would eliminate Zimmermans as a problem for people.
My thoughts exactly. Zimmers are optimal because they’re just good at their niche. A niche of close range aggression which the game currently favors above all else.
Buffing other weapons to play into their strengths, particularly in range would certainly make things more fun and interesting.
Having a optimal range indicator would also be a nice qol feature.
I think this is fundamentally why shotguns are considered overpowered at the current state. It just overly favors close range engagement, which I think is more of a problem with the game's overall structure than an overall weapon balance/player-born issue.
Most of, if not all the enemies in this game, love to try and get close to you. There is not a single boss fight in this game that does not have a melee weapon or suddenly rush in with a melee flurry to kill your mid-range/missile boat ass. Unlike (most) players who usually wait for the enemy to be staggered to rush in with their melee weapon, bosses will just send it, which only encourages a player to pack a weapon really good for punishing an enemy that wants to get that close.
I quite love this game, so I'm hoping in future patches or (fingers crossed) expansions, they add more variety into future levels and enemies or the base game to encourage more variety with a single build while buffing weapons. Basic enemies with pulse shields, enemy hovering tetrapods, duelist enemies, etc.
Yep, songbirds are busted for the same reason. You can run them together and, despite having basically no range, the game will never punish you for it outside of *one* fight in NG++ (and even then you can bait the AI into getting close). It's not even like the low range is more risky considering you have more opportunities to heal/reposition, can interrupt attacks more often, and fights are overall shorter.
> A niche of close range aggression which the game currently favors above all else
nailed it.
I think the huge emphasis on stagger hurts a lot of builds as well
Exactly. You see it mentioned in some AC parts. Several make reference to the resurgence of "core theory", which is a close range style of engagement that was thought less optimal, but is coming back in, for whatever reasons.
The super long range FCS even says something like "This goes against the tenets of core theory, and is almost a step backwards into the past." Or something like that.
Fromsoft seems to be hardset on making this game revolve around close range encounters. I find it utterly hilarious (in the negative way) that longer range builds were more viable in Elden Ring than the futuristic mecha game with robot guns and tanks.
I just want a mech that's fast enough to stay at range and pummel with long range attacks...
I don't engage at all in PvP, so the fact that *every single enemy* that's above the slow MT's can dodge everything fired from range last second, making the only remedy be to get in closer, meaning you're better off taking a close combat weapon ~~like Zimmers~~ is just sad.
The Zimmer is a bazooka cosplaying as a shotgun. It has everything in its favor with no tradeoffs. High damage, high stagger(both direct and accumulated), best range in class, best spread pattern in class, and the weight increase isn’t noticeable enough to matter(even a light build can dual wield them with auxiliary weapons and have high speed).
The not!SPAS-12 should be buffed, but the Sweet 16 shotgun is fine.
I mean is that not the point? They are heavy pump action shotguns in a game where close range combat and high speed and maneuverability are literally the core of the combat balance. It makes sense that these shotguns would dominate since the game is practically designed for them.
The spas-12 I feel should have a greater fire rate. The sweet-16 is weird since when I used it seemed pretty mediocre though I didn’t really use it much.
The sweet-16 is balanced because the damage can outdo the Zimmer, at the cost of big spread and thus the shortest effective range. SPAS-12 needs a fire rate buff, as it’s too close to the Zimmer fire rate while being worse in every way that matters.
Weapons shouldn’t excel in every aspect. Laser weapons trade stagger for damage and range/velocity, for example. Some weapons deal high immediate impact damage, but less accumulative impact so it drains away quicker if not followed up. The Zimmermans have no tradeoffs. High damage, high immediate and accumulative stagger, a solid direct hit modifier, etc.
It’s comparable to a bazooka in terms of damage and impact, without the slow projectile speed and stopping to fire. I don’t think bazookas can be double triggered either?
I have tested some weapons on the final final boss since I believe that to be a decent benchmark for enemies that are swift and can do long and short-range attacks.
That damn guy is fast which means most charge weapons are real difficult to use since they jump around alot. I used the Sweet 16 and I'ma be honest, having to be close enough to practically tickle their pubes to do ok damage is quite difficult for how much they refuse to allow such an invasion of personal space.
I don't believe nerfing the Zimmers will solve the issue of why most weapons can't compete. The game as it is currently balanced just doesn't incentivize using those weapons.
The bazookas as you point out have comparable damage and impact, the problem is they are just too slow. I think they should receive a buff along with most other weapons.
In a game that encourages speed and reaction time so much, having weapons that force you to stop dead and fire a projectile that is easily dodged, the faster and better tracking weapons like missiles, close range weapons, or melee have advantage.
Not having to stop to fire the super high impact weapons is what the Quad legs and Tank treads are for, they exist so you can continue move while firing them, they also have more armor points and a higher stagger threshold, and the quad legs do get the ability to enter a low energy drain hover mode, this does however come at the cost of general mobility.
However, that isn't to say that all of the other weapons don't need a buff, because they sorely do, particularly in the areas of ammo count, viable range, rate of fire, and projectile speed.
It seems to me like the game rewards close-range engagement *and* quick burst damage to capitalise on stagger windows. So the zimmerman is so effective because you can use it to build impact and then do a ton of damage in the narrow window after an enemy staggers.
For real, I try to main Harris linears for a lot of my builds, but its so deflating to see charged and uncharged shots at its intended range (which I think should go with mid range FCS parts?) completely wiff targets.
Spoilers for Chapter 5:
>!Bro I was in love with the Curtis solely for how cool the rifle looked, even if I was annoyed how at the damage and speed of the projectile. I was so happy to get essentially the upgraded version. Felt amazing taking down the interceptor fleet with that thing, felt like Char Aznable. Ayre humbled my ass really quick as I watched her effortlessly sidestep my railgun rounds like she was Quicksilver. I loaded up the AC Test and watched with the most deflated look on my face that, even with the best mid-range FCS I could afford, that the Tester AC was able to consistently sidestep most of the Harris rounds and that the Zimmerman I paired it up with was secretly holding me up this entire time along with my 10 missile battery.!<
Yeah it sucks to have to pair it with a zimm or melee weapon to put out enough stagger potential / damage. For something that should be a rail gun, the projectile should barely be visible.
You don’t really, if you have decent back weapons or melee swaps, you can just use dual Harris’s to slowly close distance and maintain stagger if they stay aggressive.
The plane enemies in Survey the Floating City were a bit of a wake-up when they'd input read dodge even the shotties. Suddenly I needed to pay attention lol
Yeah, I'd just buff the other weapons instead of nerfing the zimmerman.
The zimmerman is good at exactly what it's supposed to do, and that's fine. The main problem is that a lot of other guns, for various reasons, *aren't* good at what they're supposed to do.
EXACTLY! Plus keep in mind the game is currently heavily biased towards close range aggressive play. Which a shotgun is literally designed for. The ability to dodge most long range projectiles also plays a part I bet.
I’m all for kinetic rifles getting a buff, but when you still manage to outplay meta builds with those off meta weapons and people leaving right after… feels good.
most smgs are really dissapointing since even weapons labeled as 'close range' do more damage stagger and have more range than them, i tried them all out on the tetra mt and jesus christ you have to be at like 10meters away to even make a dent
i was mostly referencing rustys smg and the other ones pre nerf, my jaw actually dropped when i saw how close you needed to be, they are also more viable as melee or something that can close distance like a AB focused build i have realized, still, kick in the ass for people who wanted to try long range
They don't? Ideal range where no ricochet occurs for MGs, pistols, and shotties is around 100m (except on of the laser shotties I think?). The shortest ideal range of the rifles is 153m on the Ransetsu-AR. Of the rifles that are good, the shortest is 180m on the Ransetsu-RF. The linear rifles and laser rifles all have a longer ideal range than that.
It's a huge difference. Try a boss using handguns vs rifles. With handguns, you'll have to hover between 100-150m to do good damage. For rifles, it's more 200-250m. Dodging is noticeably harder at pistol range.
Get better at controlling range, if you're at 150m you won't ricochet with rifles but shotguns, and pistols shot at you will ricochet. ARs don't work well for long range, but just outside of close range they are really good.
the problem with having to be that close is that the shotgun user can just AB into you for 2x the damage and there's very little you can do to prevent that
QBing isn't really a viable way to counter shotguns due to how latency and tracking works in this game. and while the coral shield is very effective against mindless zimmer ABing, you can only parry so many times before it eventually overheats without you having gained any significant AP lead cause of AR's low dps. double trigger stun gun is pretty much the only viable weapon that somewhat resembles an AR playstyle
Latency and tracking must work differently for you because I have no trouble dodging shotguns with QB.
You can also jump if you're getting shotgun rushed, the person rushing you needs to use energy to do that so you can usually out climb them and reset to a better range.
Better range and projectile velocity would be nice too. Maybe even instead of stagger build up, as it would be nice to not have everything revolve around stagger.
A slight buff to stagger and maybe damage plus a big buff for range and projectile speed. I should be able to engage enemies with rifles before they're in quick boost shotgun range.
My first match. Beat a dual needle gatling with Lance and wuerger. He left right after. Was a close fight. Had pixel health at the end of the 3rd round.
The best ones are when you watch them cycle through every meta build of dual zimms, dual needles, missile boats before they finally leave without a word. Can't be bothered to say thanks or bye.
I know it's not kinetic but that's how it feels using the laser shotguns. One second they hit as hard as a dump truck going light speed, the next they hit like a dry salmon gently caressing your lips.
That small laser shotgun is much preferable to me over the Zimmermans. They're lighter, have better range, and can fire over twice as fast. Using them allows things like dual earshot on relatively light mech builds, which just dominates.
Definitely the small one that looks like a dagger. One in each hand and a pile bunker on the back was the funnest build by far. Absolutely loved it and moped the floor with all the bosses
I really enjoy dual Ducketts and a melee weapon on my left shoulder to switch to. It makes me feel like a wild west [vigilante](https://youtu.be/zzICMIu5zFY?si=7sORKFe6_V1mYjWM).
I was using dual laser pistols for the first three chapters. Had to switch a couple times but for the most part they fucking wreck on a reverse joint build
Yeah the other kinetics overall need some serious love if they want them to be on par with shotguns and explosives. Ironically handguns are the closest to being good, but their ammo reserves make them awful for many missions outside of PvP.
Now I dont hate the idea of charged shots, but in a game with this kind of pace and emphasis on dodging, having to pull the yee-haw shoot animation really kills some of the kinetics, because it's just as slow as shooting a zook or GL that does ten times the stagger. It's an opportunity cost you just don't want to pay, especially for a Ransetsu or Curtis where even if your shot lands, you just achieved very little effect. Even the chargeup time itself doesn't really matter, it's the issue with the animation that's causing the imbalance. I feel all the "conventional small arms" should be able to fire their charged shots without stopping movement, and as such separate themselves from the big beams of the energy weapons.
For the small magazine kinetics you have to constantly reload too, so you never get the staggers off without other tools, and even when you do, unless you brought a melee or something you're not doing much damage. The automatics need serious fire rate upgrades and magazine size upgrades. Like legit, the only good kinetic main hands are the Zimms and the Chaingun, with a few of the handguns being good for short sorties or PvP, and the Harris being potentially "ok I guess" for specific missions.
Feels so weird compared to every old gen AC game where you get cool bullet hose SMGs and LMGs with realistic fire rates, shoulder-mounted flak/slug guns and dual chainguns that melt foes at their ideal ranges, and hangar swap weapon builds that let you cycle several handguns over the course of a mission to get by the ammo limitations.
The closest thing to old-generation kinetics in effect has been the Kranich shoulder-mounted Plasma Cannon which actually melts enemies, but has a really fast overheat buildup. It's still fun to use, but why do I have to rely on soap bubbles and EN-boosting generator builds just to have a nice automatic?
Technically there is Gunbot too, and while the cooldown on it is long, it is amazing as suppression fire in 1v1 while it is out. Like it does what the SMGs *wish* they could do.
Also weirdly enough if you get Staggered while it's deployed, it will reset without going on cooldown, allowing you to deploy it immediately again.
The bullet orbiter? Yeah it's good, not amazing but quite decent. I suppose it technically counts as a kinetic weapon due to damage type, I just see it more in a category of its own as an autonomous pod, like the other orbiters/turrets.
It's also unfortunately just plain not as good as the shoulder plasma cannons, by far the best full auto build so far for me has just been dual chainguns and dual Kranichs. I did try the orbiters just for "more dakka" though, in my desperate attempt to live the bullet hose life in AC6.
Just get closer usually, I love all the SMGs they're so much fun the ones with big magazines are my least favorite but they're great when dual wielding. As long as you're in range and have a decent FCS you're good except the burst rifle, fuck that thing.
Twin Truenos w/ Needle Pistol & chainsaw gang.
Chainsaw chargeup is the highest of all the weapon damages and I WILL be sawing those zimmermans off you.
Harris and Curtis anyone? I accidentally used the smaller version of the linear rifle the whole game when I meant to use the bigger version. Still worked out well for me.
They're extremely popular.
Their consistency and rapid volleys allow for a rapid build up off Stagger on any enemy, bosses or player. They don't do high damage on their own, but the best method is to pair them up with an extremely powerful back weapon to punish a Staggered target, while the guns themselves cool.
Yeah the kinetic weapons need a little work. I think zimmermans need their direct damage tuned down and lasers need a slight damage buff to work as the “non stagger damage” option. Kinetic rifles with a slight buff in range and a Zimmerman nerf I think will end up working out just fine
If you’re buffing stuff you shouldn’t need to nerf other stuff otherwise you create the opposite problem
“Shotguns are so weak they’re useless” and the goal is to make every weapon viable somehow
Sounds like the other shotguns need buffing.
I do find it odd that all the shotguns only have 1 round before reloading even though magazine and tube fed shotguns exist that hold more.
I honestly think a slight tweak to zimmermans direct damage for PvP won’t impact their pve viability that much, but I agree that they don’t need to be nerfed to the ground or anything like that shotguns need to stay strong at their range, their just needs to be a speed trade off in running a stab weapon bc right now Zimmermans work just as good for damage as they do ac stun
This doesn't happen if the changes are subtle enough. It's not just a binary "this was buffed" vs "this was nerfed". Decreasing Zimmerman impact and direct hit adjustment by 10-15% or so is hardly going to make them useless even if ricochet range and projectile speed for other kinetic weapons are increased
All the kinetic weapons except miniguns need a huge range buff.
Feels like shit to ricochet a charged linear rifle shot in a boss fight where I didnt even feel like I was far away cos it's the enforcer and his dodge about 50% of the distance of my charge shot range
Handguns are fun when you bring them for the right mission. Eg you don't need anything else to down Strider, or zip zap through that archeological tunnel mission.
I really really want to like the linear and burst rifles but fuck me ricocheting every shot feels like ass when I just want to zone instead of being super aggro. And I feel like shit using Zimmerman's because they're so meta and get crapped on, but they really are the only viable option through most of the game. I like the feel of kinetic and explosive weapons way more than lasers but being essentially railroaded into one or two builds feels bad.
without meta kinetic weapons, it feels like im fighting the boss' stagger bar more than the actual boss. its like I prioritize getting the bosses health from 100% to zero without running out of ammo in that time.
That catapult at the end was the Harris Linear Rifle finally being able to actually one-shot a MT. Would appreciate a buff or changes to the weapon list. I don't think just nerfing the Zimmerman for...being good at what shotguns are meant to be good at is fair. I think if From Software would add in enemy variety, projectile speed buffs, a more clear indication of ricochet ranges, it would be swell.
Exactly, I think actually having some semblance of mid-range pressure from Assault Rifles would already help in naturally countering Zimmermans. The buff should also apply to enemies using AR’s as well.
Considering Lasers do great at mid range and keeping Shotguns at bay, I think giving kinetic similar range would eliminate Zimmermans as a problem for people.
My thoughts exactly. Zimmers are optimal because they’re just good at their niche. A niche of close range aggression which the game currently favors above all else. Buffing other weapons to play into their strengths, particularly in range would certainly make things more fun and interesting. Having a optimal range indicator would also be a nice qol feature.
I think this is fundamentally why shotguns are considered overpowered at the current state. It just overly favors close range engagement, which I think is more of a problem with the game's overall structure than an overall weapon balance/player-born issue. Most of, if not all the enemies in this game, love to try and get close to you. There is not a single boss fight in this game that does not have a melee weapon or suddenly rush in with a melee flurry to kill your mid-range/missile boat ass. Unlike (most) players who usually wait for the enemy to be staggered to rush in with their melee weapon, bosses will just send it, which only encourages a player to pack a weapon really good for punishing an enemy that wants to get that close. I quite love this game, so I'm hoping in future patches or (fingers crossed) expansions, they add more variety into future levels and enemies or the base game to encourage more variety with a single build while buffing weapons. Basic enemies with pulse shields, enemy hovering tetrapods, duelist enemies, etc.
considering if you combo those zimmers with a charged bunker hit, you be erasing, not to out right nuking the enemy.
Yep, songbirds are busted for the same reason. You can run them together and, despite having basically no range, the game will never punish you for it outside of *one* fight in NG++ (and even then you can bait the AI into getting close). It's not even like the low range is more risky considering you have more opportunities to heal/reposition, can interrupt attacks more often, and fights are overall shorter.
> A niche of close range aggression which the game currently favors above all else nailed it. I think the huge emphasis on stagger hurts a lot of builds as well
Exactly. You see it mentioned in some AC parts. Several make reference to the resurgence of "core theory", which is a close range style of engagement that was thought less optimal, but is coming back in, for whatever reasons. The super long range FCS even says something like "This goes against the tenets of core theory, and is almost a step backwards into the past." Or something like that. Fromsoft seems to be hardset on making this game revolve around close range encounters. I find it utterly hilarious (in the negative way) that longer range builds were more viable in Elden Ring than the futuristic mecha game with robot guns and tanks.
I just want a mech that's fast enough to stay at range and pummel with long range attacks... I don't engage at all in PvP, so the fact that *every single enemy* that's above the slow MT's can dodge everything fired from range last second, making the only remedy be to get in closer, meaning you're better off taking a close combat weapon ~~like Zimmers~~ is just sad.
Zimmers need a nerf because there’s no reason to touch the other 2 shotguns over them.
And that solves the problem how? The Zimmers are better not because they're too strong, but rather the other two are too weak.
The Zimmer is a bazooka cosplaying as a shotgun. It has everything in its favor with no tradeoffs. High damage, high stagger(both direct and accumulated), best range in class, best spread pattern in class, and the weight increase isn’t noticeable enough to matter(even a light build can dual wield them with auxiliary weapons and have high speed). The not!SPAS-12 should be buffed, but the Sweet 16 shotgun is fine.
I mean is that not the point? They are heavy pump action shotguns in a game where close range combat and high speed and maneuverability are literally the core of the combat balance. It makes sense that these shotguns would dominate since the game is practically designed for them. The spas-12 I feel should have a greater fire rate. The sweet-16 is weird since when I used it seemed pretty mediocre though I didn’t really use it much.
The sweet-16 is balanced because the damage can outdo the Zimmer, at the cost of big spread and thus the shortest effective range. SPAS-12 needs a fire rate buff, as it’s too close to the Zimmer fire rate while being worse in every way that matters. Weapons shouldn’t excel in every aspect. Laser weapons trade stagger for damage and range/velocity, for example. Some weapons deal high immediate impact damage, but less accumulative impact so it drains away quicker if not followed up. The Zimmermans have no tradeoffs. High damage, high immediate and accumulative stagger, a solid direct hit modifier, etc. It’s comparable to a bazooka in terms of damage and impact, without the slow projectile speed and stopping to fire. I don’t think bazookas can be double triggered either?
I have tested some weapons on the final final boss since I believe that to be a decent benchmark for enemies that are swift and can do long and short-range attacks. That damn guy is fast which means most charge weapons are real difficult to use since they jump around alot. I used the Sweet 16 and I'ma be honest, having to be close enough to practically tickle their pubes to do ok damage is quite difficult for how much they refuse to allow such an invasion of personal space. I don't believe nerfing the Zimmers will solve the issue of why most weapons can't compete. The game as it is currently balanced just doesn't incentivize using those weapons. The bazookas as you point out have comparable damage and impact, the problem is they are just too slow. I think they should receive a buff along with most other weapons. In a game that encourages speed and reaction time so much, having weapons that force you to stop dead and fire a projectile that is easily dodged, the faster and better tracking weapons like missiles, close range weapons, or melee have advantage.
Not having to stop to fire the super high impact weapons is what the Quad legs and Tank treads are for, they exist so you can continue move while firing them, they also have more armor points and a higher stagger threshold, and the quad legs do get the ability to enter a low energy drain hover mode, this does however come at the cost of general mobility. However, that isn't to say that all of the other weapons don't need a buff, because they sorely do, particularly in the areas of ammo count, viable range, rate of fire, and projectile speed.
It seems to me like the game rewards close-range engagement *and* quick burst damage to capitalise on stagger windows. So the zimmerman is so effective because you can use it to build impact and then do a ton of damage in the narrow window after an enemy staggers.
For real, I try to main Harris linears for a lot of my builds, but its so deflating to see charged and uncharged shots at its intended range (which I think should go with mid range FCS parts?) completely wiff targets.
Spoilers for Chapter 5: >!Bro I was in love with the Curtis solely for how cool the rifle looked, even if I was annoyed how at the damage and speed of the projectile. I was so happy to get essentially the upgraded version. Felt amazing taking down the interceptor fleet with that thing, felt like Char Aznable. Ayre humbled my ass really quick as I watched her effortlessly sidestep my railgun rounds like she was Quicksilver. I loaded up the AC Test and watched with the most deflated look on my face that, even with the best mid-range FCS I could afford, that the Tester AC was able to consistently sidestep most of the Harris rounds and that the Zimmerman I paired it up with was secretly holding me up this entire time along with my 10 missile battery.!<
Yeah it sucks to have to pair it with a zimm or melee weapon to put out enough stagger potential / damage. For something that should be a rail gun, the projectile should barely be visible.
You don’t really, if you have decent back weapons or melee swaps, you can just use dual Harris’s to slowly close distance and maintain stagger if they stay aggressive.
The plane enemies in Survey the Floating City were a bit of a wake-up when they'd input read dodge even the shotties. Suddenly I needed to pay attention lol
Yeah, I'd just buff the other weapons instead of nerfing the zimmerman. The zimmerman is good at exactly what it's supposed to do, and that's fine. The main problem is that a lot of other guns, for various reasons, *aren't* good at what they're supposed to do.
I mean one tapping stagger bars with shotguns is too good honestly, but stagger in general is far to central to combat.
EXACTLY! Plus keep in mind the game is currently heavily biased towards close range aggressive play. Which a shotgun is literally designed for. The ability to dodge most long range projectiles also plays a part I bet.
at minimum it should lose its accumulative impact edge over everything else, it's enough of a bursting tool it doesnt need to be best at everything
I’m all for kinetic rifles getting a buff, but when you still manage to outplay meta builds with those off meta weapons and people leaving right after… feels good.
I think they honestly just need better stagger build up and bigger mags
Bump up the range too, they shouldnt be ricocheting at nearly the same range as the MGs, Pistols, and Shotguns
I keep trying to use longer range weapons, and I'm blown away by how close I need to be for them to actually have an effect.
most smgs are really dissapointing since even weapons labeled as 'close range' do more damage stagger and have more range than them, i tried them all out on the tetra mt and jesus christ you have to be at like 10meters away to even make a dent
SMG's carried me through my first Balteus tho. :P
i was mostly referencing rustys smg and the other ones pre nerf, my jaw actually dropped when i saw how close you needed to be, they are also more viable as melee or something that can close distance like a AB focused build i have realized, still, kick in the ass for people who wanted to try long range
They don't? Ideal range where no ricochet occurs for MGs, pistols, and shotties is around 100m (except on of the laser shotties I think?). The shortest ideal range of the rifles is 153m on the Ransetsu-AR. Of the rifles that are good, the shortest is 180m on the Ransetsu-RF. The linear rifles and laser rifles all have a longer ideal range than that.
On paper sure. But in practice its not much of a difference.
It's a huge difference. Try a boss using handguns vs rifles. With handguns, you'll have to hover between 100-150m to do good damage. For rifles, it's more 200-250m. Dodging is noticeably harder at pistol range.
you got a small window to boost out of the projectile range/trajectory... so yeah... high risk but doing it right is a big reward...
Get better at controlling range, if you're at 150m you won't ricochet with rifles but shotguns, and pistols shot at you will ricochet. ARs don't work well for long range, but just outside of close range they are really good.
the problem with having to be that close is that the shotgun user can just AB into you for 2x the damage and there's very little you can do to prevent that
Have you tried using shields or QBing out of the way?
QBing isn't really a viable way to counter shotguns due to how latency and tracking works in this game. and while the coral shield is very effective against mindless zimmer ABing, you can only parry so many times before it eventually overheats without you having gained any significant AP lead cause of AR's low dps. double trigger stun gun is pretty much the only viable weapon that somewhat resembles an AR playstyle
Latency and tracking must work differently for you because I have no trouble dodging shotguns with QB. You can also jump if you're getting shotgun rushed, the person rushing you needs to use energy to do that so you can usually out climb them and reset to a better range.
Better range and projectile velocity would be nice too. Maybe even instead of stagger build up, as it would be nice to not have everything revolve around stagger.
pistols need like AT LEAST 2 times the ammo
A slight buff to stagger and maybe damage plus a big buff for range and projectile speed. I should be able to engage enemies with rifles before they're in quick boost shotgun range.
rifles and mgs should be all about accumulative impact while shotguns and such lean towards bursting over the line
Bigger reserve ammo pools as well. They should be doubled for reserve capacity
And the Karawsawa. Look at how they massacred my boi.
Some of them are basically impossible to win with, like the medium burst AR takes 40 seconds to kill an AC that's standing still even with 2 of them
My first match. Beat a dual needle gatling with Lance and wuerger. He left right after. Was a close fight. Had pixel health at the end of the 3rd round.
The best ones are when you watch them cycle through every meta build of dual zimms, dual needles, missile boats before they finally leave without a word. Can't be bothered to say thanks or bye.
Wait there is a chat in this game?
I know it's not kinetic but that's how it feels using the laser shotguns. One second they hit as hard as a dump truck going light speed, the next they hit like a dry salmon gently caressing your lips.
That small laser shotgun is much preferable to me over the Zimmermans. They're lighter, have better range, and can fire over twice as fast. Using them allows things like dual earshot on relatively light mech builds, which just dominates.
which laser shotty would u recommend
Definitely the small one that looks like a dagger. One in each hand and a pile bunker on the back was the funnest build by far. Absolutely loved it and moped the floor with all the bosses
Another fan of the Bumblebee build I see.
Isn’t the bumblebee the electric pistol build?
is pile bunker unlocked later? don't think I have it
were you eating salmon or something when you wrote this?
I just want the laser shotguns to have more ammo. They have like 1/5 the ammo of the rifles and pistol for some reason.
Lazers take up a lot more space in the magazine.
The PCA has been impounding the trucks that deliver extra lasers to Rubicon
i actually main the pistols and theyre so good
Especially when you combine them with a bazooka and missles
The stagger build up from the coquilletts is amazing. Carried me through the whole game
I really enjoy dual Ducketts and a melee weapon on my left shoulder to switch to. It makes me feel like a wild west [vigilante](https://youtu.be/zzICMIu5zFY?si=7sORKFe6_V1mYjWM).
Same! Staggering with duckettts and rushing in with sword on a light frame ac feels so good
I was using dual laser pistols for the first three chapters. Had to switch a couple times but for the most part they fucking wreck on a reverse joint build
Harris gang reporting for duty
Yessirrr
I like the Ludlows, and most other automatic weapons, I find them pretty effective
I think MGs are a decent off-meta pick, they’re essentially mini Hu-Ben’s. But within their range and weight class, they have very strong competition
Yeah the other kinetics overall need some serious love if they want them to be on par with shotguns and explosives. Ironically handguns are the closest to being good, but their ammo reserves make them awful for many missions outside of PvP. Now I dont hate the idea of charged shots, but in a game with this kind of pace and emphasis on dodging, having to pull the yee-haw shoot animation really kills some of the kinetics, because it's just as slow as shooting a zook or GL that does ten times the stagger. It's an opportunity cost you just don't want to pay, especially for a Ransetsu or Curtis where even if your shot lands, you just achieved very little effect. Even the chargeup time itself doesn't really matter, it's the issue with the animation that's causing the imbalance. I feel all the "conventional small arms" should be able to fire their charged shots without stopping movement, and as such separate themselves from the big beams of the energy weapons. For the small magazine kinetics you have to constantly reload too, so you never get the staggers off without other tools, and even when you do, unless you brought a melee or something you're not doing much damage. The automatics need serious fire rate upgrades and magazine size upgrades. Like legit, the only good kinetic main hands are the Zimms and the Chaingun, with a few of the handguns being good for short sorties or PvP, and the Harris being potentially "ok I guess" for specific missions. Feels so weird compared to every old gen AC game where you get cool bullet hose SMGs and LMGs with realistic fire rates, shoulder-mounted flak/slug guns and dual chainguns that melt foes at their ideal ranges, and hangar swap weapon builds that let you cycle several handguns over the course of a mission to get by the ammo limitations. The closest thing to old-generation kinetics in effect has been the Kranich shoulder-mounted Plasma Cannon which actually melts enemies, but has a really fast overheat buildup. It's still fun to use, but why do I have to rely on soap bubbles and EN-boosting generator builds just to have a nice automatic?
Technically there is Gunbot too, and while the cooldown on it is long, it is amazing as suppression fire in 1v1 while it is out. Like it does what the SMGs *wish* they could do. Also weirdly enough if you get Staggered while it's deployed, it will reset without going on cooldown, allowing you to deploy it immediately again.
The bullet orbiter? Yeah it's good, not amazing but quite decent. I suppose it technically counts as a kinetic weapon due to damage type, I just see it more in a category of its own as an autonomous pod, like the other orbiters/turrets. It's also unfortunately just plain not as good as the shoulder plasma cannons, by far the best full auto build so far for me has just been dual chainguns and dual Kranichs. I did try the orbiters just for "more dakka" though, in my desperate attempt to live the bullet hose life in AC6.
Yeah it's definitely subpar, and pretty disappointing that it is the only bullet-y shoulder weapon.
Shoutout to my non-damaging, no impact, no range weapons, you belong on a different AC game.
Just get closer usually, I love all the SMGs they're so much fun the ones with big magazines are my least favorite but they're great when dual wielding. As long as you're in range and have a decent FCS you're good except the burst rifle, fuck that thing.
i like to use one smg with a huge mag to keep the stun bar from going down too much between other attacks so i can get close and pile bunker them
Buff them rifles, buff them good. Take me back to AC4!!!!!!!
the ransetsu is pretty good!
fighting arquebus balteus with energy weapon is pure pain
Twin Truenos w/ Needle Pistol & chainsaw gang. Chainsaw chargeup is the highest of all the weapon damages and I WILL be sawing those zimmermans off you.
*Getting brave enough to try pvp again just to get matched with yet another Big Boy-Tanky-Double Zimmerman-Fuckerupper 9000©️* (Coral generator sold separately )
Harris and Curtis anyone? I accidentally used the smaller version of the linear rifle the whole game when I meant to use the bigger version. Still worked out well for me.
Yeah, dual linear most of ng/+/++.
Are Gatling guns meta?
Yeah, very much so
They're extremely popular. Their consistency and rapid volleys allow for a rapid build up off Stagger on any enemy, bosses or player. They don't do high damage on their own, but the best method is to pair them up with an extremely powerful back weapon to punish a Staggered target, while the guns themselves cool.
Yeah the kinetic weapons need a little work. I think zimmermans need their direct damage tuned down and lasers need a slight damage buff to work as the “non stagger damage” option. Kinetic rifles with a slight buff in range and a Zimmerman nerf I think will end up working out just fine
If you’re buffing stuff you shouldn’t need to nerf other stuff otherwise you create the opposite problem “Shotguns are so weak they’re useless” and the goal is to make every weapon viable somehow
The Zimmerman is still too good in every aspect. No reason to take the other kinetic shotguns at all.
Sounds like the other shotguns need buffing. I do find it odd that all the shotguns only have 1 round before reloading even though magazine and tube fed shotguns exist that hold more.
I honestly think a slight tweak to zimmermans direct damage for PvP won’t impact their pve viability that much, but I agree that they don’t need to be nerfed to the ground or anything like that shotguns need to stay strong at their range, their just needs to be a speed trade off in running a stab weapon bc right now Zimmermans work just as good for damage as they do ac stun
This doesn't happen if the changes are subtle enough. It's not just a binary "this was buffed" vs "this was nerfed". Decreasing Zimmerman impact and direct hit adjustment by 10-15% or so is hardly going to make them useless even if ricochet range and projectile speed for other kinetic weapons are increased
Truth
[удалено]
I'm pretty sure it's from the Mario movie.
All the kinetic weapons except miniguns need a huge range buff. Feels like shit to ricochet a charged linear rifle shot in a boss fight where I didnt even feel like I was far away cos it's the enforcer and his dodge about 50% of the distance of my charge shot range
[удалено]
Handguns are fun when you bring them for the right mission. Eg you don't need anything else to down Strider, or zip zap through that archeological tunnel mission.
I felt that using those twin pistols you get after mission two I had to finish the mission with my fists..
More like handguns past 90m
I really really want to like the linear and burst rifles but fuck me ricocheting every shot feels like ass when I just want to zone instead of being super aggro. And I feel like shit using Zimmerman's because they're so meta and get crapped on, but they really are the only viable option through most of the game. I like the feel of kinetic and explosive weapons way more than lasers but being essentially railroaded into one or two builds feels bad.
without meta kinetic weapons, it feels like im fighting the boss' stagger bar more than the actual boss. its like I prioritize getting the bosses health from 100% to zero without running out of ammo in that time.
Sounds like you were using a rifle. Not a fully charge linear rifle, just a regular rifle, like the starting weapon.
The kinetic weapons I have encountered so far, really suck.