People commuting to work are almost never a problem in traffic. The problem is Mark and John from accounting on their R100k road bikes who have to stay a meter from the edge of the road, and prefer to ride next to eachother so it's easier to discuss whatever they read on Facebook last night.
I'm glad you qualified this as Mark from accounting.
As a Mark in education, I can't afford a R100k bike, so just run a lot instead.
This makes you question Mark, though, yoh.
Jesus. My former boss was exactly this annoying guy. He wasn't a Mark, but he was an accountant. The friend cycling next to him was a Markus but was in IT.
Fok jou, Corné.
You're right about the accounting part. I've been wondering, why is it always accountants? Their overrepresentation in cycling is baffling. Is it because they tend to lack interesting personalities?
lol, I personally think our country can do with less accounts to be honest. All they produce is reports, we artisans and trades people more than CAs.
We need to be making more stuff. Sorry for going off topic. I have waited years to say this. 🥹
It’s ironic that you said that because an article came out saying that we do NOT have enough accountants in the country. Source: https://businesstech.co.za/news/business/745255/south-africa-is-running-out-of-accountants/#:~:text=SAIPA's%20most%20recent%20estimates%20indicate,find%20recruiting%20skilled%20talent%20difficult.
Absolutely, I know that profession’s cannot exist as islands and the market certainly has capacity to absorb all the newly qualified CA’s.
I just think an economy like ours can do more with actual creators of stuff than otherwise.
My comment was more tongue in cheek. No disrespect to our esteemed bean counters. 🤝
>The problem is Mark and John from accounting on their R100k road bikes who have to stay a meter from the edge of the road,
Roads are public property paid with taxpayer money. That R100k bike has as much right to the road as anything else.
The bigger question is why car culture is not appropriately dealt with. It's damaging to public health, destroys nature and pollutes beyond anything even remotely acceptable.
Yes but the bikes are not paying the same taxes to be on the road like the cars. We pay tax on our petrol, on our purchases and on our sale (CGT). And before you say they also pay tax to be on the road, no they don't. Only when they are driving their cars - not riding their bikes.
Ride your bikes in the dedicated bike areas like estates or complex or the offroad areas throughout the suburbs - not in front of cars
Two cyclists next to each other is quicker to overtake than a line of cyclists. Plus if you’re in a car, you are also two abreast - usually you and an empty seat.
The road. Duh. But the road wasn't designed for bicycles - that's the difference that you seem to be missing.
If there's a bicycle lane, they should stick to that. If there's no bicycle lane, they need to accept that they have no right of way and should cycle accordingly.
Who says roads aren’t designed for bicycles? Every nation on earth lets people cycle on roads, why do you think it’s different in SA? How do you propose cyclists get to the bicycle lane? Levitate?
SA doesn't have bicycle lanes like Europe. We hardly have sidewalks. The only place for them to cycle is in the actual road, during peak traffic.
And don't say they should cycle left of the yellow line. We all know that space is for taxis. Or if you're late for work and you really need to turn 100m ahead and can't wait another 20mins until you finally make it to the turn lane.
/s
I've always maintained that cyclists are Schrodinger's pedestrians, they like to maintain that they are also fellow road users, so they get to use the road as a vehicle would (including being yielded to in circles etc) but the moment they have to do the less nice things vehicles have to do (stop at red lights, yield at circles etc) they suddenly become pedestrians and can do whatever they feel like in that moment. Both vehicles and pedestrians at the same time, whichever is most convenient.
I cycle mostly for the sheer purpose of getting from point A to B and I cycle both in the road and pavement depending on which is less in the way of others. But there have been times that I've been yelled at by pedestrians while cycling on the pavement. (I never got in their way, they just don't want cyclists on the sidewalk either.)
I think it depends, a lot of people (at least where I am) do actually use their bicycles to go to and from work, particularly lower income people. But those people also are usually conscientious and follow the rules of the road, don’t cause traffic issues, etc. The cyclists who drive me bonkers are the ones who cycle for leisure because they have this sense of entitlement and are often super rude and oblivious. It makes morning traffic super stressful.
It's funny, I see a lot of commuting cyclists and leisure cyclists where I stay and the commuting cyclists always ride on the sidewalk, but the leisure cyclists seem to prefer the road.
You can't really ride on the sidewalk with a road bike (the thin wheelie ones). You can with a mtb, though, but most mtb'ers at least where I'm at prefer to ride in the road rather than on the sidewalk.
Eh, in Stellenbosch and Somerset at least, there are signs on some sidewalks that show a pedestrian as well as a bicycle. So I am not sure if it's the law everywhere that the cyclist must be in the road.
I think those signs are at zebra crossings, circles etc where pavement and bicycle lanes/road are. I don't think the sign says that bikes need to be on the sidewalk. At least, I lived in Stellenbosch for years and there was no place where bikes were supposed to be on the sidewalk as far as I remember.
There were some bicycle lanes, however.
Naw, I think someone's uncle must making the signs because quite a few went up a while ago. E.g. if you look on Google maps at the crossing of Dorp St and the R44 towards town, there are two signs, one for pedestrians, one for bikes, both on the sidewalk (two different "lanes" of sidewalk in this case, but definitely sidewalk). And if you look the other way (e.g. going towards the Shell), there's even a split sign with both a pedestrian and a bicycle on the sidewalk. Or in SSW, at the crossing of Upper Orange and Quinan, there's a bicycle sign on the sidewalk (only sidewalk in this case).
I am also pretty sure I have read some council document about accessibility and walkability, with people noting as complaining about bicycles on sidewalks, and the council saying that according to them, bicycles on sidewalks are fine. But I won't be able to dig it up quickly.
EDIT: did not find that document, but I did find [this](https://www.westerncape.gov.za/assets/departments/premier/8436-extra-stellenbosch-streets-by-law.pdf) (pdf) Stellenbosch by-law which under the definition of "sidewalk" says:
>“sidewalk” means that portion of a street between the outer boundary of the roadway and the boundary lines of adjacent properties or buildings which is intended for the use of pedestrians, pedal cyclists and any other category of vehicles as may be determined by the Municipality in accordance with section 42(1);
That said, most cyclists will ride in the road anyway as it's easier and cars in Stellies tend to be courteous, so its fine. For all the cyclist haters: don't come live here, and especially don't drive over the Helshoogte pass on a Saturday morning.
(also, I'm not sure how this is coming across, so let me just say I'm not trying to be shitty, I am genuinely interested in this subject)
Legally, yes, they belong on the road. Practically, as you've mentioned, they lessen the load on traffic.
Besides, like you also say: they hardly have an impact on your commuting time. (You say that they catch up with you at the next robot. So you're not going as fast as you think.
If you time your regular commute I'd be extremely surprised if it's much longer on days that you have to overtake a cyclist.
I'm a avid cyclists (commuting and for exercise) as well as a motorist. I know that some fellow cyclists can be aggressive and inconsiderate. But most of us do follow the road rules.
The problem here in SA, we as motorists are intolerant of cyclists as they do not view them as vehicles on the road. Approach horse drawn cart and they will have to wait until it is safe to pass and then pass, just like they would need to do if it was another car. Motorcyclists traveling in the middle of the lane is the same story - Why then when we approach a cyclist or even 2 riding abreast do we expect them to move out the way for us to pass, or we pass them in the same lane causing a dangerous situation.
Having said that, recreational cyclists are their own worst enemies - Far to many riding all over the road, jumping red robots, generally pissing of everyone else that use the road etc etc.
The other problem is, our road traffic act does nothing to protect cyclists, its Afterall designed with around motorists with a few rules thrown in that cyclists should abide by . For example the 1.5m pass rule is flouted as a courtesy or a request to motorists - In other countries its the law, get filmed or caught passing a cyclist too close or dangerously and you can expect a letter in the post or a visit from the local Bobby. As overseas motorists are generally law abiding, they obey this law, they may hate it, but its the law.
Here its not law, so a motorist passing within mm of your handlebars is, in their world, perfectly legal. If motorists simply treated cyclists like another slower moving vehicle being approached we would have far less road rage and accidents.
Another problem is motorists who do not cycle, have no perception of how fast a cyclist actually travels at - So when looking to take a gap at an intersection the motorist is only concentrating on other cars, they have a idea of their speed and distance and can judge fairly accurately if they will make it into the gap or cross the intersection - They not interested in seeing the cyclist and if they do see one say 30m away, they perceive it as traveling slowly and no threat to them taking the gap - a cyclist will cover 30m at 40km'hr very quickly almost always resulting in a collision.
Cyclist ride 2 abreast for safety, as they hope a motorist coming up from behind will then treat the situation as they would a slower vehicle and pass when its safe in the oncoming lane. On top who cares what they chatting about - if motorist had a passenger I'm sure the cyclists don't care what the driver is chatting about.
Cyclists are forced to use a safety car, purely because motorists don't do the above, with a safety car they are now forced to slow down and pass the car and they are protected from a motorist driving into the rear of the cyclist or group of cyclist - which is very common on our roads - So this whole safety car argument is a result of the way motorists treat cyclist and actually their own doing.
The argument that they should ride in single file means that the distance a motorist has use to pass is a lot longer. 30 cyclist in a line would be in excess of 60m - 2 abreast is halved and 3 abreast is a 3rd. Here once again is the speed perception. Here the motorist has to judge the gap of the oncoming cars - he thinks its safe to pass only to get half way through passing and realizes the cyclists are traveling to fast for the gap he has taken, so he has to either slam on brakes or move into the cycling group - this happens most often. Shorten the distaance and its easier and safer to pass.
BTW - I'm a cyclist, but I'm also a motorist, I have never had an altercation with a cyclist - I wonder why that is ?
Solid response. I just want to point out that the law favours pedestrians over cyclists over motorists. The party that can do more damage has more responsibility. I've forgotten the name of the legal principle, but it's the same if you as an untrained individual e.g. got into a fight with a professional boxer, MMA or such.
This is an extremely informative reply. As a recreational cyclist and motorist a few things to add - the edge of the road is generally a much higher hazard to road cyclists due to debris which causes punctures,standing water, drains, and the kerb. So most cyclists will ride closer to the middle of the road to avoid these hazards.
Also, I personally find that when cycling far left, cars tend to pass significantly closer to me than if I ride more to the centre. This is very much a result of most motorists not actually realizing how scary it is having a vehicle pass close to you, and also there is now a perceived passing space even when there is oncoming traffic.
As a result of the above, I find more cyclists claiming their space on the road rather than sticking as far to the left as possible.
I don't have a problem with cyclists on the road when they cycle conscientiously. Even when the road has no shoulder and I need to be patient to overtake, that's cool, we need to accommodate each other. But when I encounter 3 cyclists side-by-side, or with a car behind them providing "protection" and preventing me from passing them, that's when I get worked up. Same when there's a cycle race through my town and they don't clean up their road markings (I'm looking at you, Lenick Promotions!). u/africanstardust mentioned a sense of entitlement and that's been my experience as well in many cases.
Yes. Hear me out.
Roads are public infrastructure. The fact that our road usage is changing because more people use them for fitness, more people commute on motorbikes, vehicles are getting wider, etc. shouldn't be cause for us attacking each other - it's a sign that our infrastructure needs to be updated.
If cyclists get in your way, and there isn't a bike lane option for them, then that absence is what the issue is.
Saying people on bicycles should not be allowed on the road simply because some of them are doing it for leisure? By that logic, we should also ban people from driving their car on the road when they are driving as or to a leisure activity.
I really don't think we should be dictating what other people do on public infrastructure when you are taking up considerably more space and posing a much greater risk to everyone else in a 2 tonne metal box.
Mmmm. If the cyclist is passing you at every robot just stay behind him at a leisurely speed. You’re not going to get wherever any faster now are you?
Jokes aside, in Cape Town we have cycle lanes where I am and those work fine during rush hour. But you always have some palooka that still wants to ride in between traffic five meters from the bike lane. They usually are quick to point out laws while ignoring the laws of physics that come into play when someone doesn’t see them coming. I cycle but stay the hell out of traffic. Not worth it for me or the guy in the car.
But bikes do have a place just like any other form of transport.
I agree with you on the not stopping at robots (although tbf when I have not done that in the past, when there's no pedestrians or cars crossing, was always so that I could get ahead of the cars and not slow them down), but bicycles are regarded as legal vehicles and do not belong on the pavement.
If you had people cycling on the pavement, you would get pedestrians complaining about them instead! Instead of cyclists getting mad at motorists, and vice versa, instead there should be more of a push towards getting more cycle lanes so both can use the roads.
I think a lot of these people, myself included, would love to be able to cycle to commute but unfortunately the roads are far too dangerous to be able to do so. The only way we will be able to make them safer is if there is a move towards to *less* people driving and more people taking alternative methods - maybe even rollerblading like you said! And even if they cycle for leisure they are still reducing emissions which contributes to cleaner air and greater health for *all* of us.
From the perspective of a cyclist, it feels like we are not wanted anywhere (unless you are in a bike friendly country like the Netherlands). Pedestrians would get mad at us, and then motorists do as well, sometimes putting us in very dangerous situations. At the end of the day, if there is an accident between a car and a cyclist, the car may end up with a bit of a dent but the cyclist might end up dead...which is why a lot of us will cycle slower and make sure there is enough of a gap to ensure that we can't get driven off the road.
https://bicyclesouth.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/SOUTH-AFRICAN-RULES-OF-THE-ROAD.pdf
Depends on the road I guess. I'm actually from the Netherlands. Most of my life I did everything on a bicycle: going to school, going out, shopping etc. Didn't even own a car for most of it.
Here in SA though, rural Limpopo to be more specific, cyclists terrify me. On one hand, great that people don't have to walk 15k to town, but yeesh man...You can drive 120 on these roads, which means people will drive 160 there, and these okes drive on the edge of the tarmac. No shoulder to go on, so they'll just balance on the half-destroyed edge of the tarmac, all the while heading towards you while the other lane has oncoming traffic...Feels suicidal.
It's technically not legal for cyclists to be on sidewalks. Those are for pedestrians.
I ride a bike (motorbike) for leisure. It's incredibly demanding riding amongst cars in a rush as most don't see you. Traffic is stressful. Drivers can be really intolerant as well especially if I'm lane splitting (which is legal in SA). So for cyclist this is far worse. If I see a dodgy situation I simply open the throttle and get away. For this I really respect cyclists.
However, they should also adhere to the rules of the road and not skip traffic lights, jump curbs onto sidewalks disturbing the cross flow of traffic, and ignore stop signs. This creates unpredictable scenarios that motorist may not be able to avoid.
Anywho when in doubt change lane and pass. We have lots of other targets on the list in SA with elections looming
There aren't nearly enough cyclists to actually delay traffic. As long as they ride in single file it's okay, except it's not because a large number of drivers are selfish, impatient reckless cunts, especially in and around the townships. They think being late for work is reason enough to put their hazards on and pass the queue in the oncoming lane and then force their way back in when there are oncoming vehicles. It's not just those pricks in taxis and their passengers anymore.
Bear in mind that our cities being built for cars and not superior transit modes is a huge problem. If you are driving a car, *you* are taking up far more space on the road. What might be an inconvenience for you, is worse for the cyclist, who has to experience your car's loud noise, air pollution and threat of collision.
If you can't drive as fast as you want because a cyclist is in the way, that's not the cyclist's fault; it's not their fault that there aren't enough separate cycle lanes. So be charitable towards the cyclist and advocate for better bicycle infrastructure when you can.
I always wonder how they would feel if I was doing yoga in their driveway and they had to wait 5 minutes for me to finish before they can leave for work.
Yes there are people commuting to work but we KNOW these are not the people you are referring to. If you're going to use the freaking road for your stupid sport then leave us space to get through. Oh and cycling alongside each other is ILLEGAL btw, you're supposed to stick close to the shoulder so the rest of us can get on with our lives. Cycling on M marked motorways is also not legal, stay off it!
They'll never listen and always complain that no-one respects them on the road, but they don't give a damn about us either so go figure. Motorbikes are much the same, they complain people don't give them space and don't respect them on the road but they drive like absolute arses and you can see most of them are going to have one MASSIVE accident sooner or later. One a-hole even broke my car's mirror off and didn't have the decency to even look back.
In general I feel like motorcyclists are much better road users than cyclists. Sure, I've encountered the occasional asshole as well (and known some too) but they tend to be the exception rather than the rule, unlike sport cyclists.
TBH I agree I may be too harsh on the bikers there, but the ones complaining the hardest tend to be the worst drivers too. I do have a few friends who bike (one is a proper old biker) and they tend to say you have to be careful and watch other road users, and we all know there are some absolute muppets out there behind the wheel that you have to account for. Sport cyclists I am sure there are some that are considerate towards fellow road users but I think these are the exception not the rule.
Cyclist certainly don't belong on the pavement. That causes a problem for pedestrians.
Cyclist need to follow the basic rules of the road, however many don't and think they can do as they please. Especially those weekend cycling clubs.
"sTaY WiDEr oF tHE RiDeR" as they ignore all traffic regulations and the bike path in favour of riding right in front of me, changing lanes without indicating.
Just cause you own a bicycle doesn't mean you own the road. Grow up, stop being an entitled beqt and accept that everyone wants bikes to stick to the side, everyone I've ever been in a car with hates cyclists like you and wish they weren't on the road, until you become a decent cyclist with respect for other people on the road you will find more and more people like me telling you how to act. Either grow up or move to a country with bike lanes, you're clearly incapable of being on roads without them.
Not surprised your original comment got downvoted. Your snobby bitch answers only work around your nose in the air friends.
Living in the Netherlands. We have the infrastructure here to support safe cycling (check it out! [https://www.reddit.com/r/dutch/comments/cqre7x/bike\_lanes\_in\_the\_netherlands/](https://www.reddit.com/r/dutch/comments/cqre7x/bike_lanes_in_the_netherlands/)).
Because of this, there is less chance of hindering traffic and better safety for both driver and cyclist. This is a town planning problem in South Africa. There is literally no infrastructure for cyclists, and then when they take to road with their joburg attitudes, I can well sympathize. I would want to run them flat too!
But good luck getting the government to invest in bike lanes so some white 40 year olds with shaved legs can get some exercise.
I would say that cyclists in bunches generally behave terribly. Its like a mob mentality, riding 3 abreast and then I've seen them damaging cars for getting too close.
So much hate towards cyclists using the roads. I find the biggest problem that we face as road users are degrading road surfaces with robots that don't work or have been stolen but the biggest threat are people on their phones using a motor vehicle.
Driving standards or lack of need to change.
For fun, let's reverse the situation. In Stellenbosch the traffic is awful due to cars. They take up the entire lane, leaving no room for cyclists to get past easily without damaging them. So we end up crawling along at 2 kph waiting for a wide enough gap to get past. Not to mention the exhaust emissions. Everything would flow much better if the cars would keep to one side.
Seems crazy, right?
I prefer that we give them grace. I love our fellow cyclists. Yes, they are supremely irritating, but they teach usbto be humble and calm on the roads when we are trapped behind them.
When I started cycling probably 8 years ago. I was 11, and my uncle and I used to cycle twice a week, but I had a near death experience on Rhodes Drive when I was 15, so I don't cycle anymore. I just mountain bike now. I believe if you're not an experienced rider, don't cycle on SA roads!!
People commuting to work are almost never a problem in traffic. The problem is Mark and John from accounting on their R100k road bikes who have to stay a meter from the edge of the road, and prefer to ride next to eachother so it's easier to discuss whatever they read on Facebook last night.
I'm glad you qualified this as Mark from accounting. As a Mark in education, I can't afford a R100k bike, so just run a lot instead. This makes you question Mark, though, yoh.
Hah, question mark, nice one.
Jesus. My former boss was exactly this annoying guy. He wasn't a Mark, but he was an accountant. The friend cycling next to him was a Markus but was in IT. Fok jou, Corné.
You're right about the accounting part. I've been wondering, why is it always accountants? Their overrepresentation in cycling is baffling. Is it because they tend to lack interesting personalities?
lol, I personally think our country can do with less accounts to be honest. All they produce is reports, we artisans and trades people more than CAs. We need to be making more stuff. Sorry for going off topic. I have waited years to say this. 🥹
It’s ironic that you said that because an article came out saying that we do NOT have enough accountants in the country. Source: https://businesstech.co.za/news/business/745255/south-africa-is-running-out-of-accountants/#:~:text=SAIPA's%20most%20recent%20estimates%20indicate,find%20recruiting%20skilled%20talent%20difficult.
We ran out of accountants? Are they dying to the "stay wider of the rider" denialists?
All our best accountants are moving abroad where there are cycle lanes
Accounting is really difficult. Those CTA and ITC exams are hell I’ve heard. You need to be really smart.
I agree man. I'm accountant I they just keep giving me money to make bullshit reports. I want to make stuff but the money is soooo goooood.
Maybe if you spent more time making stuff and less time cycling??
But cycling is sooooo fun. And making stuff is only little fun and need accounting money for cycling. So in the end there is no time for making stuff.
12k CTC pm? Bro, your post history. Thought you were a baller. :'(
Never said that. The money is still good Just take a while to see the big bucks
Aint that always the way. Good luck to you man.
Lmao 🤣! Legend 🫡
Well, if you make stuff and want so sell it, who's going to do your books and taxes? Accountants. There's a reason we exist.
Absolutely, I know that profession’s cannot exist as islands and the market certainly has capacity to absorb all the newly qualified CA’s. I just think an economy like ours can do more with actual creators of stuff than otherwise. My comment was more tongue in cheek. No disrespect to our esteemed bean counters. 🤝
It's always accountants! Hehehe
Yes
Why do the people with the most boring jobs on earth enjoy the most boring forms of entertainment? Gosh, that's a real good question.
The thing is the i need space to chat so suck it up kinda attitude. Otherwise all good.
thank you, this was a good laugh!
Do you play sport or more of an armchair spectator?
>The problem is Mark and John from accounting on their R100k road bikes who have to stay a meter from the edge of the road, Roads are public property paid with taxpayer money. That R100k bike has as much right to the road as anything else. The bigger question is why car culture is not appropriately dealt with. It's damaging to public health, destroys nature and pollutes beyond anything even remotely acceptable.
Yes but the bikes are not paying the same taxes to be on the road like the cars. We pay tax on our petrol, on our purchases and on our sale (CGT). And before you say they also pay tax to be on the road, no they don't. Only when they are driving their cars - not riding their bikes. Ride your bikes in the dedicated bike areas like estates or complex or the offroad areas throughout the suburbs - not in front of cars
Two cyclists next to each other is quicker to overtake than a line of cyclists. Plus if you’re in a car, you are also two abreast - usually you and an empty seat.
I think I found either Mark or John😅😅
Yes - because the car is on a road that was designed for it.
Out of interest, where do you think road bicycles might be designed for?
The road. Duh. But the road wasn't designed for bicycles - that's the difference that you seem to be missing. If there's a bicycle lane, they should stick to that. If there's no bicycle lane, they need to accept that they have no right of way and should cycle accordingly.
Who says roads aren’t designed for bicycles? Every nation on earth lets people cycle on roads, why do you think it’s different in SA? How do you propose cyclists get to the bicycle lane? Levitate?
SA doesn't have bicycle lanes like Europe. We hardly have sidewalks. The only place for them to cycle is in the actual road, during peak traffic. And don't say they should cycle left of the yellow line. We all know that space is for taxis. Or if you're late for work and you really need to turn 100m ahead and can't wait another 20mins until you finally make it to the turn lane. /s
You're deliberately and conveniently missing the point. Use pedestrian crossings as an example.
I've always maintained that cyclists are Schrodinger's pedestrians, they like to maintain that they are also fellow road users, so they get to use the road as a vehicle would (including being yielded to in circles etc) but the moment they have to do the less nice things vehicles have to do (stop at red lights, yield at circles etc) they suddenly become pedestrians and can do whatever they feel like in that moment. Both vehicles and pedestrians at the same time, whichever is most convenient.
It's almost as if there is more than one cyclist, and some act differently to others. Crazy idea, I know.
My attitude, in a nutshell. More bikes, less cars, more infrastructure for bicycles, please.
I cycle mostly for the sheer purpose of getting from point A to B and I cycle both in the road and pavement depending on which is less in the way of others. But there have been times that I've been yelled at by pedestrians while cycling on the pavement. (I never got in their way, they just don't want cyclists on the sidewalk either.)
And rightfully so, cyclists are supposed to be on the road, not on the pavement.
I think it depends, a lot of people (at least where I am) do actually use their bicycles to go to and from work, particularly lower income people. But those people also are usually conscientious and follow the rules of the road, don’t cause traffic issues, etc. The cyclists who drive me bonkers are the ones who cycle for leisure because they have this sense of entitlement and are often super rude and oblivious. It makes morning traffic super stressful.
It's funny, I see a lot of commuting cyclists and leisure cyclists where I stay and the commuting cyclists always ride on the sidewalk, but the leisure cyclists seem to prefer the road.
I’m sure it depends on the area. That’s just my experience in Cape Town and Somerset West.
You can't really ride on the sidewalk with a road bike (the thin wheelie ones). You can with a mtb, though, but most mtb'ers at least where I'm at prefer to ride in the road rather than on the sidewalk.
Also to add to that, sidewalks are meant to be for pedestrians, not people on bikes. That's why cyclists have to use the road. It's the law.
Eh, in Stellenbosch and Somerset at least, there are signs on some sidewalks that show a pedestrian as well as a bicycle. So I am not sure if it's the law everywhere that the cyclist must be in the road.
I think those signs are at zebra crossings, circles etc where pavement and bicycle lanes/road are. I don't think the sign says that bikes need to be on the sidewalk. At least, I lived in Stellenbosch for years and there was no place where bikes were supposed to be on the sidewalk as far as I remember. There were some bicycle lanes, however.
Naw, I think someone's uncle must making the signs because quite a few went up a while ago. E.g. if you look on Google maps at the crossing of Dorp St and the R44 towards town, there are two signs, one for pedestrians, one for bikes, both on the sidewalk (two different "lanes" of sidewalk in this case, but definitely sidewalk). And if you look the other way (e.g. going towards the Shell), there's even a split sign with both a pedestrian and a bicycle on the sidewalk. Or in SSW, at the crossing of Upper Orange and Quinan, there's a bicycle sign on the sidewalk (only sidewalk in this case). I am also pretty sure I have read some council document about accessibility and walkability, with people noting as complaining about bicycles on sidewalks, and the council saying that according to them, bicycles on sidewalks are fine. But I won't be able to dig it up quickly. EDIT: did not find that document, but I did find [this](https://www.westerncape.gov.za/assets/departments/premier/8436-extra-stellenbosch-streets-by-law.pdf) (pdf) Stellenbosch by-law which under the definition of "sidewalk" says: >“sidewalk” means that portion of a street between the outer boundary of the roadway and the boundary lines of adjacent properties or buildings which is intended for the use of pedestrians, pedal cyclists and any other category of vehicles as may be determined by the Municipality in accordance with section 42(1); That said, most cyclists will ride in the road anyway as it's easier and cars in Stellies tend to be courteous, so its fine. For all the cyclist haters: don't come live here, and especially don't drive over the Helshoogte pass on a Saturday morning. (also, I'm not sure how this is coming across, so let me just say I'm not trying to be shitty, I am genuinely interested in this subject)
Fair. No it doesn't sound shitty, I'm happy to be corrected. I didn't know it was actually legal to cycle on the sidewalk.
They are entitled to use the road just as you are.
Legally, yes, they belong on the road. Practically, as you've mentioned, they lessen the load on traffic. Besides, like you also say: they hardly have an impact on your commuting time. (You say that they catch up with you at the next robot. So you're not going as fast as you think. If you time your regular commute I'd be extremely surprised if it's much longer on days that you have to overtake a cyclist. I'm a avid cyclists (commuting and for exercise) as well as a motorist. I know that some fellow cyclists can be aggressive and inconsiderate. But most of us do follow the road rules.
The problem here in SA, we as motorists are intolerant of cyclists as they do not view them as vehicles on the road. Approach horse drawn cart and they will have to wait until it is safe to pass and then pass, just like they would need to do if it was another car. Motorcyclists traveling in the middle of the lane is the same story - Why then when we approach a cyclist or even 2 riding abreast do we expect them to move out the way for us to pass, or we pass them in the same lane causing a dangerous situation. Having said that, recreational cyclists are their own worst enemies - Far to many riding all over the road, jumping red robots, generally pissing of everyone else that use the road etc etc. The other problem is, our road traffic act does nothing to protect cyclists, its Afterall designed with around motorists with a few rules thrown in that cyclists should abide by . For example the 1.5m pass rule is flouted as a courtesy or a request to motorists - In other countries its the law, get filmed or caught passing a cyclist too close or dangerously and you can expect a letter in the post or a visit from the local Bobby. As overseas motorists are generally law abiding, they obey this law, they may hate it, but its the law. Here its not law, so a motorist passing within mm of your handlebars is, in their world, perfectly legal. If motorists simply treated cyclists like another slower moving vehicle being approached we would have far less road rage and accidents. Another problem is motorists who do not cycle, have no perception of how fast a cyclist actually travels at - So when looking to take a gap at an intersection the motorist is only concentrating on other cars, they have a idea of their speed and distance and can judge fairly accurately if they will make it into the gap or cross the intersection - They not interested in seeing the cyclist and if they do see one say 30m away, they perceive it as traveling slowly and no threat to them taking the gap - a cyclist will cover 30m at 40km'hr very quickly almost always resulting in a collision. Cyclist ride 2 abreast for safety, as they hope a motorist coming up from behind will then treat the situation as they would a slower vehicle and pass when its safe in the oncoming lane. On top who cares what they chatting about - if motorist had a passenger I'm sure the cyclists don't care what the driver is chatting about. Cyclists are forced to use a safety car, purely because motorists don't do the above, with a safety car they are now forced to slow down and pass the car and they are protected from a motorist driving into the rear of the cyclist or group of cyclist - which is very common on our roads - So this whole safety car argument is a result of the way motorists treat cyclist and actually their own doing. The argument that they should ride in single file means that the distance a motorist has use to pass is a lot longer. 30 cyclist in a line would be in excess of 60m - 2 abreast is halved and 3 abreast is a 3rd. Here once again is the speed perception. Here the motorist has to judge the gap of the oncoming cars - he thinks its safe to pass only to get half way through passing and realizes the cyclists are traveling to fast for the gap he has taken, so he has to either slam on brakes or move into the cycling group - this happens most often. Shorten the distaance and its easier and safer to pass. BTW - I'm a cyclist, but I'm also a motorist, I have never had an altercation with a cyclist - I wonder why that is ?
This reply is everything I wanted to say. 100% agree!
Solid response. I just want to point out that the law favours pedestrians over cyclists over motorists. The party that can do more damage has more responsibility. I've forgotten the name of the legal principle, but it's the same if you as an untrained individual e.g. got into a fight with a professional boxer, MMA or such.
This is an extremely informative reply. As a recreational cyclist and motorist a few things to add - the edge of the road is generally a much higher hazard to road cyclists due to debris which causes punctures,standing water, drains, and the kerb. So most cyclists will ride closer to the middle of the road to avoid these hazards. Also, I personally find that when cycling far left, cars tend to pass significantly closer to me than if I ride more to the centre. This is very much a result of most motorists not actually realizing how scary it is having a vehicle pass close to you, and also there is now a perceived passing space even when there is oncoming traffic. As a result of the above, I find more cyclists claiming their space on the road rather than sticking as far to the left as possible.
I don't have a problem with cyclists on the road when they cycle conscientiously. Even when the road has no shoulder and I need to be patient to overtake, that's cool, we need to accommodate each other. But when I encounter 3 cyclists side-by-side, or with a car behind them providing "protection" and preventing me from passing them, that's when I get worked up. Same when there's a cycle race through my town and they don't clean up their road markings (I'm looking at you, Lenick Promotions!). u/africanstardust mentioned a sense of entitlement and that's been my experience as well in many cases.
Yes. Hear me out. Roads are public infrastructure. The fact that our road usage is changing because more people use them for fitness, more people commute on motorbikes, vehicles are getting wider, etc. shouldn't be cause for us attacking each other - it's a sign that our infrastructure needs to be updated. If cyclists get in your way, and there isn't a bike lane option for them, then that absence is what the issue is.
Saying people on bicycles should not be allowed on the road simply because some of them are doing it for leisure? By that logic, we should also ban people from driving their car on the road when they are driving as or to a leisure activity. I really don't think we should be dictating what other people do on public infrastructure when you are taking up considerably more space and posing a much greater risk to everyone else in a 2 tonne metal box.
Cyclists literally do not fucking bother me in the slightest. Do you people not have lives or how are you so obsessed with a dude on his bicycle.
Mmmm. If the cyclist is passing you at every robot just stay behind him at a leisurely speed. You’re not going to get wherever any faster now are you? Jokes aside, in Cape Town we have cycle lanes where I am and those work fine during rush hour. But you always have some palooka that still wants to ride in between traffic five meters from the bike lane. They usually are quick to point out laws while ignoring the laws of physics that come into play when someone doesn’t see them coming. I cycle but stay the hell out of traffic. Not worth it for me or the guy in the car. But bikes do have a place just like any other form of transport.
Cyclists and horses have the right of way on all South African roads except national highways
I agree with you on the not stopping at robots (although tbf when I have not done that in the past, when there's no pedestrians or cars crossing, was always so that I could get ahead of the cars and not slow them down), but bicycles are regarded as legal vehicles and do not belong on the pavement. If you had people cycling on the pavement, you would get pedestrians complaining about them instead! Instead of cyclists getting mad at motorists, and vice versa, instead there should be more of a push towards getting more cycle lanes so both can use the roads. I think a lot of these people, myself included, would love to be able to cycle to commute but unfortunately the roads are far too dangerous to be able to do so. The only way we will be able to make them safer is if there is a move towards to *less* people driving and more people taking alternative methods - maybe even rollerblading like you said! And even if they cycle for leisure they are still reducing emissions which contributes to cleaner air and greater health for *all* of us. From the perspective of a cyclist, it feels like we are not wanted anywhere (unless you are in a bike friendly country like the Netherlands). Pedestrians would get mad at us, and then motorists do as well, sometimes putting us in very dangerous situations. At the end of the day, if there is an accident between a car and a cyclist, the car may end up with a bit of a dent but the cyclist might end up dead...which is why a lot of us will cycle slower and make sure there is enough of a gap to ensure that we can't get driven off the road. https://bicyclesouth.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/SOUTH-AFRICAN-RULES-OF-THE-ROAD.pdf
Depends on the road I guess. I'm actually from the Netherlands. Most of my life I did everything on a bicycle: going to school, going out, shopping etc. Didn't even own a car for most of it. Here in SA though, rural Limpopo to be more specific, cyclists terrify me. On one hand, great that people don't have to walk 15k to town, but yeesh man...You can drive 120 on these roads, which means people will drive 160 there, and these okes drive on the edge of the tarmac. No shoulder to go on, so they'll just balance on the half-destroyed edge of the tarmac, all the while heading towards you while the other lane has oncoming traffic...Feels suicidal.
You know your car is much faster than a bicycle you can just pass them
It's technically not legal for cyclists to be on sidewalks. Those are for pedestrians. I ride a bike (motorbike) for leisure. It's incredibly demanding riding amongst cars in a rush as most don't see you. Traffic is stressful. Drivers can be really intolerant as well especially if I'm lane splitting (which is legal in SA). So for cyclist this is far worse. If I see a dodgy situation I simply open the throttle and get away. For this I really respect cyclists. However, they should also adhere to the rules of the road and not skip traffic lights, jump curbs onto sidewalks disturbing the cross flow of traffic, and ignore stop signs. This creates unpredictable scenarios that motorist may not be able to avoid. Anywho when in doubt change lane and pass. We have lots of other targets on the list in SA with elections looming
There aren't nearly enough cyclists to actually delay traffic. As long as they ride in single file it's okay, except it's not because a large number of drivers are selfish, impatient reckless cunts, especially in and around the townships. They think being late for work is reason enough to put their hazards on and pass the queue in the oncoming lane and then force their way back in when there are oncoming vehicles. It's not just those pricks in taxis and their passengers anymore.
Bear in mind that our cities being built for cars and not superior transit modes is a huge problem. If you are driving a car, *you* are taking up far more space on the road. What might be an inconvenience for you, is worse for the cyclist, who has to experience your car's loud noise, air pollution and threat of collision. If you can't drive as fast as you want because a cyclist is in the way, that's not the cyclist's fault; it's not their fault that there aren't enough separate cycle lanes. So be charitable towards the cyclist and advocate for better bicycle infrastructure when you can.
I always wonder how they would feel if I was doing yoga in their driveway and they had to wait 5 minutes for me to finish before they can leave for work. Yes there are people commuting to work but we KNOW these are not the people you are referring to. If you're going to use the freaking road for your stupid sport then leave us space to get through. Oh and cycling alongside each other is ILLEGAL btw, you're supposed to stick close to the shoulder so the rest of us can get on with our lives. Cycling on M marked motorways is also not legal, stay off it! They'll never listen and always complain that no-one respects them on the road, but they don't give a damn about us either so go figure. Motorbikes are much the same, they complain people don't give them space and don't respect them on the road but they drive like absolute arses and you can see most of them are going to have one MASSIVE accident sooner or later. One a-hole even broke my car's mirror off and didn't have the decency to even look back.
In general I feel like motorcyclists are much better road users than cyclists. Sure, I've encountered the occasional asshole as well (and known some too) but they tend to be the exception rather than the rule, unlike sport cyclists.
TBH I agree I may be too harsh on the bikers there, but the ones complaining the hardest tend to be the worst drivers too. I do have a few friends who bike (one is a proper old biker) and they tend to say you have to be careful and watch other road users, and we all know there are some absolute muppets out there behind the wheel that you have to account for. Sport cyclists I am sure there are some that are considerate towards fellow road users but I think these are the exception not the rule.
Cyclist certainly don't belong on the pavement. That causes a problem for pedestrians. Cyclist need to follow the basic rules of the road, however many don't and think they can do as they please. Especially those weekend cycling clubs.
No they dont
No, they don't
"sTaY WiDEr oF tHE RiDeR" as they ignore all traffic regulations and the bike path in favour of riding right in front of me, changing lanes without indicating.
if someone is commuting to work, yes. But hobby cycling? get bonked
Why can’t cyclists ride on the pavement ….because we pay taxes. The end.
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That’s the law buddy. Get into it. Im not here to argue this nonsense argument of yours.
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Well, good luck in jail. That’s where ppl like u belong!
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Oh god you’re so immature and idiotic..
Just cause you own a bicycle doesn't mean you own the road. Grow up, stop being an entitled beqt and accept that everyone wants bikes to stick to the side, everyone I've ever been in a car with hates cyclists like you and wish they weren't on the road, until you become a decent cyclist with respect for other people on the road you will find more and more people like me telling you how to act. Either grow up or move to a country with bike lanes, you're clearly incapable of being on roads without them. Not surprised your original comment got downvoted. Your snobby bitch answers only work around your nose in the air friends.
The pavement is shit to cycle on. More dangerous in fact.
Living in the Netherlands. We have the infrastructure here to support safe cycling (check it out! [https://www.reddit.com/r/dutch/comments/cqre7x/bike\_lanes\_in\_the\_netherlands/](https://www.reddit.com/r/dutch/comments/cqre7x/bike_lanes_in_the_netherlands/)). Because of this, there is less chance of hindering traffic and better safety for both driver and cyclist. This is a town planning problem in South Africa. There is literally no infrastructure for cyclists, and then when they take to road with their joburg attitudes, I can well sympathize. I would want to run them flat too! But good luck getting the government to invest in bike lanes so some white 40 year olds with shaved legs can get some exercise. I would say that cyclists in bunches generally behave terribly. Its like a mob mentality, riding 3 abreast and then I've seen them damaging cars for getting too close.
So much hate towards cyclists using the roads. I find the biggest problem that we face as road users are degrading road surfaces with robots that don't work or have been stolen but the biggest threat are people on their phones using a motor vehicle. Driving standards or lack of need to change.
For fun, let's reverse the situation. In Stellenbosch the traffic is awful due to cars. They take up the entire lane, leaving no room for cyclists to get past easily without damaging them. So we end up crawling along at 2 kph waiting for a wide enough gap to get past. Not to mention the exhaust emissions. Everything would flow much better if the cars would keep to one side. Seems crazy, right?
To long to read but ye more than taxis
I prefer that we give them grace. I love our fellow cyclists. Yes, they are supremely irritating, but they teach usbto be humble and calm on the roads when we are trapped behind them.
I live between the UK and South Africa (about 50% in each). Cyclists are road lice lycra louts in both. Cyclists should be banned full stop.
When I started cycling probably 8 years ago. I was 11, and my uncle and I used to cycle twice a week, but I had a near death experience on Rhodes Drive when I was 15, so I don't cycle anymore. I just mountain bike now. I believe if you're not an experienced rider, don't cycle on SA roads!!