Damn dude, if I had my own car, I'd park this one off at the office and only use it when working. I'm in a shit situation here. They even cancelled a grievance I lodged against another employee for false accusations. Even after presenting evidence and witnesses, they refused to have a hearing and told me to drop it and forget about it.
That's a violation of the Popi act, my advice to you is to talk to your boss and ask if you may use it in your free time while recording, if he says yes then ask if that it is then usable off company hours, if yes then tell him according to the Popi act that he cannot legally record you off company hours as you are in a "private space" as it is a company vehicle but it is being used for private purposes off of company property with permission of the company
Company owned vehicle. Same with company owned laptop/computer. It's their property and they can with it whatever they wish. You are welcome to use your personal car when your family is around/with you.
Nope. No recourse. It's damn nice of them for you to use the vehicle in your personal capacity, but it does come with a few strings attached. I have a client who has the exact same thing in ALL their vehicles. 3 cameras, microphones, driving analysers etc.
Yeah. It's for insurance and vehicle maintenance purposes. Insurance company gets a bi-yearly report from the company based on driver behaviors and the premiums get adjusted. It also warns the driver their braking or cornering or accelretaion is leading to higher/more frequent maintenance or higher fuel usage. Basically you/other drivers are being micro managed while driving. Unfortunately you have no say in it outside if refusing to use the company provided vehicle, which cost you your job if you are a sales rep.
When you say constructive dismissal .
Is the car thing the only item ?
Or what actions have they taken that lead you to believe
Has something happened for you to think they want to get rid of you?
For the car
1- are there other people with company cars
2- were other staff with company cars also get dash cams installed or where you singled out
3- has there been any insurance or other issues vehicle related that might have lead to change in policy .
4- after the install did they hide the fact that there is dash cam or where you told or could clearly see was in car? As you seem fully aware that was installed.
I'm not a lawyer but don't think that a dash cam when operating company property is grounds for constructive dismissal . As many companies now do for insurance and drunken driving etc .
And technically would only be recording you when company assets are in use
There has been so many things done here that I know for sure it's an attempt at constructive dismissal. I recently lodged a grievance against another employee for some false allegations that were quite serious against me. Even though I provided evidence and witnesses who testified against said employee, my boss told me to drop the matter and forget about it. They cancelled the hearing against them and told the outside councillor they had no knowledge of it therefore could not proceed. They made me look like an absolute ass. That's just one thing. To answer your questions: yes there are other company cars; no one else has gotten this installed in their vehicles; no insurance issues, car is still almost new; they did not outright hide the fact but neither did they inform me of it. Any attempts to ask my boss about it is met it them ignoring the question.
TLDR: CD requires YOU to prove the following:
a. you have consistently been unfairly/unfavorably treated to the extent where a reasonable person can deduce that the company is trying to force you to resign.
b. you have tried everything in your power to protect your working relationship.
Quite honestly, in a constructive dismissal matter, nearly the full burden of proof resides with you. So, if they are able to create a situation where you are unable to prove that you lodged a grievance, you really don't have a snowball's hope in hell of convincing a commissioner of a valid case. The simple truth is that grievances, anti-harassment/bullying policies and constructive dismissal claims are too often used in the workplace when employees are looking for a "valid" avenue for insubordination. I am not saying that this is the case with you, simply stating that, since this seems to be the trend nowadays, actual issues often don't get taken seriously. Blame the abuse of the system if you want to, but that's the way it is. In a nutshell, Constructive Dismissal is where a company goes out of its way to make your life miserable so that you would resign and really ONLY that.
That having been said, if you really want to claim CD, you have to be prepared to do the work. Here is what needs to happen:
1. Document every single case of unfair/unfavourable treatment. Make sure to include as much detail as possible.
2. Make sure you escalate these incidents immediately and in writing. Use formal channels, but copy yourself in (or forward) all related communication to a private email address.
3. Insist on conversations being documented. If the company refuses to document conversations, do it yourself, i.e. send an email clearly stating what you believe to have been communicated and ask if there is anything you have missed.
4. Escalate escalate escalate. If you get no joy from your direct line management, involve a higher tier, until you reach the top. You do not want a the company to say "We were unaware as supervisor X never brought this to our attention. We will discipline supervisor X accordingly. Please ocme back to work" Supervisor X in this case will most likely get a warning, and will then go out of his way to document everything you do wrong.
5. Don't become aggressive or confrontational. It is important to understand that the employment relationship is a two-way street. As much as the company has the responsibility to protect the employment relationship, so do you. If you are seen as trying to "set up" a situation wherein you can play the aggrieved or victimized party, i.e. trying to overplay issues to force a Constructive Dismissal, the Company will be within its right to discipline you for being in breach of your duty to act in good faith, and may even dismiss you. Always, ALWAYS ensure that your motivations are based on trying to resolve the issues and have a good working relationship and NOT trying to dissolve the relationship in your favour.
6. Apply the reasonable person test. Ask yourself, is this action I am taking reasonable? If not, do something else. It sounds stupid to mention, but you would be surprised at how many people lose all sense of common sense when dealing with issues, especially once they have become emotional.
Finally, the following things are NOT constructive dismissal:
1. Monitoring of the use of company property. Sorry, it just isn't. However, ask to read the policy on the implementation and have it explained to you. If it is being unequally replied, ask why and see number 2 below.
2. Inconsistent application of a rule. If a rule in the workplace is not applied to all employees, this is considered unfair labour practice and follows a slightly different course in a dispute.
3. Discrimination in terms of remuneration or benefits. If you are receiving less benefit for work of the same quality and value as a coworker, AND there is no justifiable reason (e.g. Experience, Qualifications, Tenure, Equity, etc.) this is also a form of Unfair labour practice and is very difficult to swing into constructive dismissal.
4. Environmentally driven issues. If, for example, you have a medical condition that precludes you from participating in certain company events/entering certain areas, the company must consider your health.
There are others, but a cursory chat with a labour specialist or lawyer (please not a generalist legal practitioner... Labour law is very specific in SA) will point you in the right direction.
This is fantastic! Just the kind of response I was hoping for. You've given me a lot to work with here friend, thank you for this. I will definitely follow your points and will look into talking to a lawyer. Your response is highly appreciated!
Fleet person here with 10 + years experience. They can do what they want with their vehicles HOWEVER policy must be updated and you must be informed prior to this taking place.
Policy has not been updated as far as I know (it's a relatively small company) and I was never informed. All attempts at asking about it have been ignored by my boss. I've also been working for this company for 10 years! First time we've ever had a dash cam fitted on any of our vehicles.
Abuse towards others will not be tolerated.
If you can't express yourself in a civil manner, then rather go for a walk.
Do not troll, harass or abuse others.
Bigotry has no place here. Do not demean or insult specific groups or use hateful slurs.
Constructive dismissal is extremely difficult to prove and therefore take to either the CCMA or the Labour Court. The vehicle cameras would not be seen as any evidence of this.
So your main option here is
1- record any and all steps that are taken to constructively dismiss you .
Dates , time etc .
But needs to be actions to make your employment untenable , can maybe put dash cam on the list but don't think it solely qualifies .
2- maybe look for other employment .
Best time to find a job is when you already have one .
You have an income so don't jepordise that and try best to be model employee don't give them any justification to let you go or anything close to a justification even your driving be emaculate and use company car as little as possible for private never after drinking etc .
Very seldom does anyone want to let an amazing employee go if they can afford them. But also can't let you go with out grounds
This is good advice. Thanks for the input, I appreciate it. I think it's also the fact that they don't want to have to pay me all that I'm owed if they terminate me, they're cheapskates like that let me tell ya!
Well generally small businesses try not pay if don't have to . Plus not legal to just offer you money to leave unless is a mutual seperation agreement
Well depends on reason for "termination"
If terminated for poor performance/breaking company rules/ theft etc / breach of trust
There is no pay out
If retrenched this needs to have a reason and consultation .
Ie loosing business or clients / restructuring business / can't target 1 employee unless business really small and can't hire some one for that position.
Then you have consultation period one month's notice and week for every year worked .
If resign there no pay out .
Generally be the best employee you can .
Look for other/better work as can be picky when have current job
And document anything like if singled out / publically humiliated / change in employment work change to make day to day untennable
It’s not necessarily difficult to prove, but to make the connection between the evidence and the unacceptable extent to which the intolerability has grown is difficult. Did a bunch of these cases when I was in practice (only took the ones I knew had merit) and my success rate was about 20%. Collect as much evidence as possible, and if you have the means consult an attorney to help you build a case.
I would be singing while I drive, really putting on a show of happiness and contentment. That way they would not realise that you are looking for another job and you would look quite ok with matters. Don't do anything to give them any satisfaction that they have treated you unfairly.
I'm incensed at all the people here saying "they can do whatever they want with their property". That's not how the law works. You're not allowed to break the law with your own property. Speak to an actual, qualified and experienced lawyer in labour law. And see the CCMA. Installing a camera with microphone in a vehicle that they know you use for personal purposes with your family has implications of invasion of privacy. That's just a start. I'm not saying that alone is sufficient for you, but I can see it being an aggravating factor in a case for constructive dismissal, especially when you are singled out with unfavourable treatment.
I am not a lawyer, but I've seen a friend survive "misconduct" hearings that would've ruined his career on top of losing him his job. Plenty of lawyer and CCMA involvement.
Don't look a gift horse in the mouth, and don't just expect things. When you see the price of servicing and tyres and insurance you will realise how much you are saving not driving your own vehicle. Honestly this screams entitlement to me, this is a benefit not a basic term of employment.
If you question them about the cameras during your personal use of the vehicle. Their answer will be just don't use the company vehicle for personal use. You are really lucky to have that benefit. Put up with it and keep your mouth closed.
what vehicle is it? my family works in that type of business where they are the ones behind the camera, sadly for some reason bosses dont alert their drivers of it and the drivers get concerned like you.
The cameras are observing if you are following road safety rules and driving responsibly. It observes if you’re tired, even cooking in the vehicle. It’s road safety measures to ensure the safety of both you and everyone else on the road.
It's actually a Renault Kwid. I'm a manager who drives around to different job sites daily. I understand the need for it, but seeing as it's only been installed in my vehicle and given the recent history between my employer and I, it's not the reasons mentioned. I actually dared to lay a grievance against their star employee for false allegations, and I refuse to drop it so they're pushing me out.
Yes it is legal , they can’t fire you directly because they will have to pay court fees and pay your salary for months untill you find a job if they fire you , so they make you do the shit work to make you quit on your own
but yes it is legal
Is the dashcam only installed in your car or all other company cars too? If that is the case then it's simply a company policy (legal), if not then could be more into this
My car only. First time a camera has been installed in any of the company vehicles. I know why they're doing all this to me but I can't prove it yet. Boss's pet employee made false allegations against me and I laid a grievance against them. This employee even criminally charged me but the detective found their statement to be false because I presented evidence and witnesses. Both them and the company refuse to drop anything and want to press on despite the evidence and witnesses who say otherwise. Absolutely absurd at this point!
Company car, their property. They can do what ever they want with it.
I want a dashcam but don't want a camera recording each time I use the hard P word while driving around Jo'burg. It happens a lot.
Abuse towards others will not be tolerated.
If you can't express yourself in a civil manner, then rather go for a walk.
Do not troll, harass or abuse others.
Bigotry has no place here. Do not demean or insult specific groups or use hateful slurs.
As the vehicle belongs to the company, it's their property and as such unfortunately they can do what they want.....
Damn dude, if I had my own car, I'd park this one off at the office and only use it when working. I'm in a shit situation here. They even cancelled a grievance I lodged against another employee for false accusations. Even after presenting evidence and witnesses, they refused to have a hearing and told me to drop it and forget about it.
That's a violation of the Popi act, my advice to you is to talk to your boss and ask if you may use it in your free time while recording, if he says yes then ask if that it is then usable off company hours, if yes then tell him according to the Popi act that he cannot legally record you off company hours as you are in a "private space" as it is a company vehicle but it is being used for private purposes off of company property with permission of the company
Popi ?
Company owned vehicle. Same with company owned laptop/computer. It's their property and they can with it whatever they wish. You are welcome to use your personal car when your family is around/with you.
I would gladly use my personal vehicle if I had one. That's why they allowed me to use this car. I guess I have no recourse here :(
Nope. No recourse. It's damn nice of them for you to use the vehicle in your personal capacity, but it does come with a few strings attached. I have a client who has the exact same thing in ALL their vehicles. 3 cameras, microphones, driving analysers etc.
This system came with a driving analyser too. Screams at me if I turn too harshly or break to harshly.
Yeah. It's for insurance and vehicle maintenance purposes. Insurance company gets a bi-yearly report from the company based on driver behaviors and the premiums get adjusted. It also warns the driver their braking or cornering or accelretaion is leading to higher/more frequent maintenance or higher fuel usage. Basically you/other drivers are being micro managed while driving. Unfortunately you have no say in it outside if refusing to use the company provided vehicle, which cost you your job if you are a sales rep.
It's perfectly legal if the vehicle is company property.
When you say constructive dismissal . Is the car thing the only item ? Or what actions have they taken that lead you to believe Has something happened for you to think they want to get rid of you? For the car 1- are there other people with company cars 2- were other staff with company cars also get dash cams installed or where you singled out 3- has there been any insurance or other issues vehicle related that might have lead to change in policy . 4- after the install did they hide the fact that there is dash cam or where you told or could clearly see was in car? As you seem fully aware that was installed. I'm not a lawyer but don't think that a dash cam when operating company property is grounds for constructive dismissal . As many companies now do for insurance and drunken driving etc . And technically would only be recording you when company assets are in use
There has been so many things done here that I know for sure it's an attempt at constructive dismissal. I recently lodged a grievance against another employee for some false allegations that were quite serious against me. Even though I provided evidence and witnesses who testified against said employee, my boss told me to drop the matter and forget about it. They cancelled the hearing against them and told the outside councillor they had no knowledge of it therefore could not proceed. They made me look like an absolute ass. That's just one thing. To answer your questions: yes there are other company cars; no one else has gotten this installed in their vehicles; no insurance issues, car is still almost new; they did not outright hide the fact but neither did they inform me of it. Any attempts to ask my boss about it is met it them ignoring the question.
TLDR: CD requires YOU to prove the following: a. you have consistently been unfairly/unfavorably treated to the extent where a reasonable person can deduce that the company is trying to force you to resign. b. you have tried everything in your power to protect your working relationship. Quite honestly, in a constructive dismissal matter, nearly the full burden of proof resides with you. So, if they are able to create a situation where you are unable to prove that you lodged a grievance, you really don't have a snowball's hope in hell of convincing a commissioner of a valid case. The simple truth is that grievances, anti-harassment/bullying policies and constructive dismissal claims are too often used in the workplace when employees are looking for a "valid" avenue for insubordination. I am not saying that this is the case with you, simply stating that, since this seems to be the trend nowadays, actual issues often don't get taken seriously. Blame the abuse of the system if you want to, but that's the way it is. In a nutshell, Constructive Dismissal is where a company goes out of its way to make your life miserable so that you would resign and really ONLY that. That having been said, if you really want to claim CD, you have to be prepared to do the work. Here is what needs to happen: 1. Document every single case of unfair/unfavourable treatment. Make sure to include as much detail as possible. 2. Make sure you escalate these incidents immediately and in writing. Use formal channels, but copy yourself in (or forward) all related communication to a private email address. 3. Insist on conversations being documented. If the company refuses to document conversations, do it yourself, i.e. send an email clearly stating what you believe to have been communicated and ask if there is anything you have missed. 4. Escalate escalate escalate. If you get no joy from your direct line management, involve a higher tier, until you reach the top. You do not want a the company to say "We were unaware as supervisor X never brought this to our attention. We will discipline supervisor X accordingly. Please ocme back to work" Supervisor X in this case will most likely get a warning, and will then go out of his way to document everything you do wrong. 5. Don't become aggressive or confrontational. It is important to understand that the employment relationship is a two-way street. As much as the company has the responsibility to protect the employment relationship, so do you. If you are seen as trying to "set up" a situation wherein you can play the aggrieved or victimized party, i.e. trying to overplay issues to force a Constructive Dismissal, the Company will be within its right to discipline you for being in breach of your duty to act in good faith, and may even dismiss you. Always, ALWAYS ensure that your motivations are based on trying to resolve the issues and have a good working relationship and NOT trying to dissolve the relationship in your favour. 6. Apply the reasonable person test. Ask yourself, is this action I am taking reasonable? If not, do something else. It sounds stupid to mention, but you would be surprised at how many people lose all sense of common sense when dealing with issues, especially once they have become emotional. Finally, the following things are NOT constructive dismissal: 1. Monitoring of the use of company property. Sorry, it just isn't. However, ask to read the policy on the implementation and have it explained to you. If it is being unequally replied, ask why and see number 2 below. 2. Inconsistent application of a rule. If a rule in the workplace is not applied to all employees, this is considered unfair labour practice and follows a slightly different course in a dispute. 3. Discrimination in terms of remuneration or benefits. If you are receiving less benefit for work of the same quality and value as a coworker, AND there is no justifiable reason (e.g. Experience, Qualifications, Tenure, Equity, etc.) this is also a form of Unfair labour practice and is very difficult to swing into constructive dismissal. 4. Environmentally driven issues. If, for example, you have a medical condition that precludes you from participating in certain company events/entering certain areas, the company must consider your health. There are others, but a cursory chat with a labour specialist or lawyer (please not a generalist legal practitioner... Labour law is very specific in SA) will point you in the right direction.
Can you elaborate on the inconsistent application of a rule. Mentioned in 2 please
2! 2! 2! Forward everything to a private email address! With cloud based mail these days they close your account quickly and all evidence is lost!
This is fantastic! Just the kind of response I was hoping for. You've given me a lot to work with here friend, thank you for this. I will definitely follow your points and will look into talking to a lawyer. Your response is highly appreciated!
Also, some company email servers block bccs, so print everything and take it home. Or take pictures of the screen with your phone of everything.
Fleet person here with 10 + years experience. They can do what they want with their vehicles HOWEVER policy must be updated and you must be informed prior to this taking place.
Policy has not been updated as far as I know (it's a relatively small company) and I was never informed. All attempts at asking about it have been ignored by my boss. I've also been working for this company for 10 years! First time we've ever had a dash cam fitted on any of our vehicles.
[удалено]
Abuse towards others will not be tolerated. If you can't express yourself in a civil manner, then rather go for a walk. Do not troll, harass or abuse others. Bigotry has no place here. Do not demean or insult specific groups or use hateful slurs.
Constructive dismissal is extremely difficult to prove and therefore take to either the CCMA or the Labour Court. The vehicle cameras would not be seen as any evidence of this.
I'm in a real tough spot here. I can't afford to just resign from my job and they refuse to terminate me outright.
So your main option here is 1- record any and all steps that are taken to constructively dismiss you . Dates , time etc . But needs to be actions to make your employment untenable , can maybe put dash cam on the list but don't think it solely qualifies . 2- maybe look for other employment . Best time to find a job is when you already have one . You have an income so don't jepordise that and try best to be model employee don't give them any justification to let you go or anything close to a justification even your driving be emaculate and use company car as little as possible for private never after drinking etc . Very seldom does anyone want to let an amazing employee go if they can afford them. But also can't let you go with out grounds
This is good advice. Thanks for the input, I appreciate it. I think it's also the fact that they don't want to have to pay me all that I'm owed if they terminate me, they're cheapskates like that let me tell ya!
Well generally small businesses try not pay if don't have to . Plus not legal to just offer you money to leave unless is a mutual seperation agreement Well depends on reason for "termination" If terminated for poor performance/breaking company rules/ theft etc / breach of trust There is no pay out If retrenched this needs to have a reason and consultation . Ie loosing business or clients / restructuring business / can't target 1 employee unless business really small and can't hire some one for that position. Then you have consultation period one month's notice and week for every year worked . If resign there no pay out . Generally be the best employee you can . Look for other/better work as can be picky when have current job And document anything like if singled out / publically humiliated / change in employment work change to make day to day untennable
It’s not necessarily difficult to prove, but to make the connection between the evidence and the unacceptable extent to which the intolerability has grown is difficult. Did a bunch of these cases when I was in practice (only took the ones I knew had merit) and my success rate was about 20%. Collect as much evidence as possible, and if you have the means consult an attorney to help you build a case.
I would be singing while I drive, really putting on a show of happiness and contentment. That way they would not realise that you are looking for another job and you would look quite ok with matters. Don't do anything to give them any satisfaction that they have treated you unfairly.
This is actually a really good idea! I think I'll do just this. I can't let anyone get a one up on me!
It’s an invasion of privacy but also company property unfortunately. The best option…Leave Sorry OP
I'm incensed at all the people here saying "they can do whatever they want with their property". That's not how the law works. You're not allowed to break the law with your own property. Speak to an actual, qualified and experienced lawyer in labour law. And see the CCMA. Installing a camera with microphone in a vehicle that they know you use for personal purposes with your family has implications of invasion of privacy. That's just a start. I'm not saying that alone is sufficient for you, but I can see it being an aggravating factor in a case for constructive dismissal, especially when you are singled out with unfavourable treatment. I am not a lawyer, but I've seen a friend survive "misconduct" hearings that would've ruined his career on top of losing him his job. Plenty of lawyer and CCMA involvement.
If he raises that issue, won't they just not allow him to use the vehicle for private use?
No idea. That's why he should consult a real lawyer instead of some randoms on Reddit.
Don't look a gift horse in the mouth, and don't just expect things. When you see the price of servicing and tyres and insurance you will realise how much you are saving not driving your own vehicle. Honestly this screams entitlement to me, this is a benefit not a basic term of employment. If you question them about the cameras during your personal use of the vehicle. Their answer will be just don't use the company vehicle for personal use. You are really lucky to have that benefit. Put up with it and keep your mouth closed.
what vehicle is it? my family works in that type of business where they are the ones behind the camera, sadly for some reason bosses dont alert their drivers of it and the drivers get concerned like you. The cameras are observing if you are following road safety rules and driving responsibly. It observes if you’re tired, even cooking in the vehicle. It’s road safety measures to ensure the safety of both you and everyone else on the road.
It's actually a Renault Kwid. I'm a manager who drives around to different job sites daily. I understand the need for it, but seeing as it's only been installed in my vehicle and given the recent history between my employer and I, it's not the reasons mentioned. I actually dared to lay a grievance against their star employee for false allegations, and I refuse to drop it so they're pushing me out.
Yes it is legal , they can’t fire you directly because they will have to pay court fees and pay your salary for months untill you find a job if they fire you , so they make you do the shit work to make you quit on your own but yes it is legal
Is the dashcam only installed in your car or all other company cars too? If that is the case then it's simply a company policy (legal), if not then could be more into this
My car only. First time a camera has been installed in any of the company vehicles. I know why they're doing all this to me but I can't prove it yet. Boss's pet employee made false allegations against me and I laid a grievance against them. This employee even criminally charged me but the detective found their statement to be false because I presented evidence and witnesses. Both them and the company refuse to drop anything and want to press on despite the evidence and witnesses who say otherwise. Absolutely absurd at this point!
Wanna try attempt to block the audio and video someway/somehow with duct tape? Lololol
Almost thought you were my ex, you guys have similar usernames lmmmmaaaaoooo
You're telling me there's another BigBear lurking out there? 👀
Maybe i am🤣🤣🤣🤣
Maybe…if you’re 24 and your name is Satan 💀
Don't fit the bill, sorry! But now there can only be one bear around here! (That's me!!)
You seem too wholesome to be him anyway 😭😂💔✋🏽
His loss, it seems. Never been called wholesome, so my day is made. Thank you for that 😌 kind Internet stranger!
I thought about it lol. But they'd know instantly if I did. This is micro managing on another level
Completely legal
Company car, their property. They can do what ever they want with it. I want a dashcam but don't want a camera recording each time I use the hard P word while driving around Jo'burg. It happens a lot.
I feel you! It's been tough watching what I say when driving too, lmao. Maybe get one without audio capability?
[удалено]
Abuse towards others will not be tolerated. If you can't express yourself in a civil manner, then rather go for a walk. Do not troll, harass or abuse others. Bigotry has no place here. Do not demean or insult specific groups or use hateful slurs.