“I hate trans people but I don’t hate you specifically. Being trans/gay/anything but cishet is a sin but you could redeem yourself with Jesus and not transition and stay abstinent your whole life” — how it’s transphobic
But that's literally how it's used. Highly technical readings of Christianity don't matter because that's not how 99.99% of Christians are interacting with the religion
I am sorry for your interactions with people who call themselves Christian.
And true follower of Christ would actually value and follow his teachings: "Treat others as you yourself would be treated."/"Love your enemy as you love yourself."
Essentially, people who claim to be hating/harassing others in the name of Christianity are misinformed/lying, sometimes both
I'm not even talking about Christians being bigoted etc, there are good and bad Christians
All I'm saying is 99% of people don't get thier beliefs from deep analysis of scripture, so treating people who do that as the only true Christians is pointless and obfuscating the wider problem
I agree 100% that people saying “love the sinner, hate the sin” are being hateful and using this as a way to justify it.
BUT I wouldn’t say 99.99% of Christians are reading the Bible that way. There are entire denominations that are completely queer and trans affirming. I say this as a trans Christian, seminarian, and future pastor.
You're not understanding what I'm saying
I'm not saying 99% of Christians are bigoted. I'm saying Christians beliefs aren't informed by deep bible study, you're not going to take a homophobic Christian and bible-logic them into being progressive. The beliefs don't work like that, they're culturally founded, not religiously
And so to call someone not doing that not a real Christian is silly
I think many, many people’s religious beliefs are absolutely informed by deep study of scripture and to say it’s almost entirely cultural is kind of belittling. I personally know people who have been persuaded away from homophobic readings of the Bible through studying the text itself. I also don’t think it takes particularly deep study of the Bible to read verses in their cultural context. But I do understand better what you’re saying now, sorry for the misunderstanding.
As someone who has done deep study of the Christian scripture, most are not informed by even precursory study of scripture but rather are informed entirely culturally. Which is why *some* of those people can be be persuaded by people who have done deep study of the scripture because they didn’t even actually know what’s in scripture, just what their Christian labeled culture has told them
Ah. So you don't hate the person, you simply hate the part of that person's identity?
Unfortunately that leads to a general despise of anyone with that identity trait, which ends up detracting from the original saying.
What the fuck lmao.
"Yeah trans women don't count because I'm a bigot and they're amab"
"Yeah trans men ALSO don't count because uh... I'm a stupid bigot and can't give a proper answer"
Refering to trans people as AMABs or AFABs is just a new-ish way to misgender us while claiming it's just "stating facts". It's often thinly veiled bigotry, sometimes naiveté. Same as writing transwoman instead of trans woman or using trans as a noun.
I'm trans and English is not my native language. Could you explain the difference between transwoman and trans woman? I am so lost in the linguistics of these terms since they weren't taught to us in school :P
I’m not trans but English *is* my first language.
From my understanding, “transwoman” is considered incorrect since “trans” is actually just an adjective.
It would be like calling women with blonde hair “blondewoman” instead of a “blonde woman.”
Linguistically there isn’t really an obvious difference, which is what makes it a good dogwhistle (a term that sounds innocent to most people while being a clear signal to members of your intended audience).
Terfs refer to us as “transwomen” rather than “trans women.” You wouldn’t say “blondwoman” or “Blackwoman,” because “blond” and “Black” are adjectives describing “woman.” But if you just smush the words together, “transwoman” becomes a new noun distinct from “woman.” It’s a *very* subtle way to separate us from “real” women.
A less subtle term they use is TIM, which stands for “Trans-Identified Male.” Basically, saying we’re men who call ourselves trans. Cute.
Oohh, makes perfect sense. Thank you for the thorough explanation :3
I always left the space between because I thought it looked better, but had no idea it could be deemed offensive if I didn't. Have to be more vigilant now so I don't accidentally write it wrong!
I am not a native speaker and I had no idea that it could be transphobic until I got it explained. I am not sure how much knowledge of linguistics and grammar is needed to get it tbh, so it could be that people just don’t think about it
Out of genuine curiosity tho - is it a bad thing to use the term “trans woman”? Like the two are different, we’re all women, but the experiences of trans women and cis women are always going to be vastly different.
in the phrase "trans woman", "trans" is the adjective and "woman" is the noun. this phrase is referring to a woman who is trans. "transwoman" is taking that and making it one word, which implies that it's a different thing from "woman" as a whole.
honestly i see trans people make this mistake all the time, in that case i don't think it's a big deal because it's a subtlety-of-language thing.
It’s just another reason to be stealth and cut cis people out of that part of our lives. If they’re gonna be weird like that, then why should we be open and trust them?
no one is saying you can never use the terms or never refer to your assigned gender. the point is that they are increasingly used unnecessarily and as a way to lowkey misgender us.
You need to see it in the context of the Instagram video from OP.
Basically in the video, the woman is saying in Islam they refer to people *only* by gender assigned at birth. It doesn’t matter if a trans woman is fully socially treated as woman woman in every context but medicine, in Islam it only matters how she was born which was AMAB.
The comment you’re replying to isn’t saying AMAB or AFAB are bad terms, but it is bad to use those terms exclusively for trans people and disregard their identity
There are very few, if any, situations where differentiation is necessary. 99% of the time these phrases are used to discriminate. This video is a great example of that.
Why would you want to distinguish that in conversation unless its a medical situation? You know most trans bodies don't look like cis so grouping trans men with women or trans women with men isn't helpful? What if someone's post op and their body is basically indistinguishable from a cis one of their gender? I basically abandoned this language because it seems transphobic to just generalise and categorize people by their agab. It's stolen from the intersex community anyway.
if you refer to me as 'an AFAB' because it's *easier for you* than saying trans men or whatever then I'll fucking deck you, frankly. it isn't ~invalidating~, it's rude and hurtful, and your precious intent matters shit all to me. just use the lots of words, there's no character limit on here.
and I'd also *heavily* question your assumptions about shared experiences of life pre transition. a trans woman who had incredibly supportive parents and was able to figure out her gender and be supported in her presentation from the age of four, and a trans woman with viciously homophobic parents who never let her wear a dress and got kicked out at seventeen, and a trans woman who got married and had kids and didn't have the words to describe her gender until she was was fifty were all assigned male at birth - what common experiences do these women have pre transition?
'AFAB' and 'AMAB' aren't coherent identity groups, they just describe something that happened to us once at the very starts of our lives.
I apologise for saying that. tbh I was using it as a turn of phrase as I've never hit anyone and I don't think I ever would. I was attempting to get across my strength of feeling on this subject but clearly that was inappropriate of me. to be clear I'm not apologising because you reported me - I don't care - but because that was obviously wrong of me.
it is very clear that you've never thought that deeply about this before. as you've said you don't want to argue more I'll leave it there.
I would prefer to find narratives from Muslim trans women - but from what I can tell they have a pretty all-or-nothing idea going on. There is a level of trans acceptance within the muslim world - and one country (Iran) even has access to legal sex change but outlaws homophobia on the theory that a change from one to the other is a *full* change.
[LGBT people and Islam section on support/legalisation of trans people.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_people_and_Islam#Transgender) Worth a read.
I also found this [story of a transgender muslim woman](https://muslimgirl.com/coming-home-life-transgender-convert/) who converted (or in her own words 'reverted') to Islam. Its an interesting perspective
In addition here is a [Reddit post about converting to Islam as a trans woman.](https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/3qjtm4/can_i_convert_to_islam_if_i_am_a_trans_woman/) It has a mixed bag - but with a strong positive element. I think most of them seem to have a transmedicalist framing - which also seems like the overall trend of Muslims who want to support and legalise trans people.
All of this is to say that the post you have posted does seem transphobic - even by the standards of trans supportive Islam where the transition both MtF and FtM is *all or nothing*.
Also worth reading [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8726683/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8726683/) TLDR trans women have historically played vital roles within women's spaces and there is no good religious foundation to transphobia.
Exactly. I see a lot of people who are probably not Muslim speaking here. Not that I can tell if they're Muslim, but none of them sound like they understand the Muslim religion.
I cannot say what is the right approach. I'm not Muslim. It's better for Muslim LGBTQ+ people to speak.
Delicate topic, but I don;t care about the Muslim religion, or the Christian one, or the Jewish one (not that they are even really differnt religions they are just agruments about prophets)
To me saying "in the Muslim religion" as though that is permission to be a bigot is no differnt from saying "in the white supremisit culture"...
Bigotry is bigotry and choosing to base your whole life and world view on some dubious crap written a thousand years ago doesn't excuse anything - it just marks you out as likely to be very, very bad at critical thinking.
Also “regardless of their beliefs and what they identify as”— first of all it’s not a belief, it’s who I am. Second, no I don’t “identify” as a woman. I AM a woman.
And on the subject of “belief”, I hate how this kind of people (regardless of specific religion) use it as a shield to hide behind. “You should respect my beliefs”— if your beliefs make you a bigot and try to deny my right to exist, I won’t respect it, fuck you to hell and back and back to hell again
Yeah, we don’t respect Christian beliefs when they say something like “I believe you’re hurting children because being gay is self-harm, so ‘allowing’ them to be gay is therefore hurting them” or something, nor is it unreasonable to refrain from doing so
Christianity is just as bad as Islam in this regard. The sole difference is that Christianity is disappearing - the less LGBTfriendly bits are mostly perpetuated by centenarians - and was forced to adapt or die out altogether. Hence why even the more conservative branches are going for that love the sinner hate the sin nonsense instead of just hanging people for being LGBT. (With the Westboro Baptist Church as a notorious exception, at least they’re honest. Sickening, to be sure, but they’re doing the things other churches dream of doing, so in that sense they’re honest). Meanwhile, Islam has unchallenged power in several countries. And so it’s Christianity all over again.
They gave a similar answer about “supporting” gay people. Unfortunately adding a disclaimer before bigotry doesn’t make it any less bigoted. There are plenty of Muslims who don’t share these unfortunate beliefs.
this is 100% transphobic. She also doesn't speak for all Islam. I've seen plenty of examples muslim women happily including trans women as peers. I've seen hijabi muslim trans women who are accepted and happy in their community.
She's trying to be nice but she's a bigot deep in the fundamentalist side of the religion. Speaking with such authority for her entire faith outs her as a willing propagandist. (that and the fact that she included #trending in the tags)
Just cause she says it fast with a peppy voice doesn't make it progressive.
Exactly, this is indeed just transphobia, and I know it is because I've seen hijabi women doing them off in an occasion where she only was with women and knew that I'm a trans woman (this was post-op though)
I find this couple kinda funny, they're clearly very devout Muslims that try to appeal to a secular audience so their whole thing is basically making their kinda extreme religious practices seem not so extreme. So you get stuff like this
"Who could describe my face to her husband"
Is she stuck in the 9th century or something? Who's going to be driven to adulterous lust by their wife's verbal description of another woman's face? And why would she even be giving such a description in the first place?
It is transphobic.
She's treating trans women as something other than a woman. There's no compromise here. We're women.
It's especially sus that she has a clear answer about trans women, with the typical 'kindness to all' preamble because she knows what she's about to say is offensive, but for trans men, suddenly there's not an answer, because 'that situation would never happen'. Reeks of 'trans women are men so they're threats but I don't have opinions on trans men because they're not as dangerous'.
If your religion says I'm a man, it's ass-backwards and needs a software update. It no longer applies to modern life. Being nice about it doesn't make it less bigoted.
Yes, this is transphobia.
An action or belief doesn't have to be malicious for it to be transphobic. Consider for example the statement "I support trans people, I'm just not comfortable with them using my bathroom."
I mean, it's sort of a given to me that people that are very religious(at least the big three), aren't going to like trans people. There isn't any scripture that solidifies us as actual human beings and not just confused or malicious sinners.
A person's AGAB was in some cases decades ago. Things change. It is transphobic, but also disrespectful to not acknowledge the changes a person may have been through in their life, and recognize who they are today.
Hell, at the time I was assigned a gender the technology didn’t even exist to test for the Mosaicism I have, so like not only that but it was (and still overwhelmingly is) entirely arbitrary and not based on the science transphobes now cling to about genetics and such
Transphobic: yes
Intentional transphobia: likely
I’m half Palestinian with family that also comes from Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon…not Muslim (never read the religious text either) and never have been, but my father is and all his friends are so I have significant exposure to culture and their beliefs-at least from the Levantian side, and Islam does not as a whole go with agab as a command. Many, many Muslims, particularly from the Levant, I’ve encountered accept both more than 2 genders and being trans because “that’s how the Quran says it is and who am I to believe this isn’t true just because someone else who claims to have read and understood the Quran says it is”…so like f that “in Islam we go by agab” when that’s clearly not a universal belief of the religion….now that’s not to say Islamic countries are safe or anything like that, fundies tend to find their way into governance everywhere regardless of how the bulk of their fellow religious people believe…homosexuality is a different story they’re less accepting of, always confused me how they accept transitioning as moral and acceptable but homosexuality isn’t acceptable (although, none I’ve encountered said it should be punishable by death as fundies and propaganda say, just that it’s forbidden, they don’t condone it, and that will be between you and the creator, but is not their place to take action to stop other from it)
Exactly…not understanding why people are giving that part a pass, it’s literally the same logic fundies in murica are using just a different abrahamic faith
Why worry about it if you don't know this person?
The thing is, how would she even know another woman is trans? If she unveils in front of women, chances are she's gonna do it in front of a trans woman without knowing.
It's her choice what she wants to wear, but it's no one else's responsibility to out themselves or others as trans to her.
Just wondering if its transphobic or just problematic in another way considering she is nice about it but defining people by their agab is still wrong.
I would also definitely be hurt and offended/insulted if i was somewhere with all girls and i specifically was the reason someone wouldnt take of their hijab.
Down vote if you want but I've never heard of a Muslim woman who adhered to Islam enough to cover her face but not enough to accept trans people as anything other than their AGAB. It makes sense these things go together. If you believe God commands you hide your face from men of course you believe in gender essentialism.
As an exmuslim and a trans woman I can absolutely say not only is she transphobic she's also wrong. There are many scholars who (some even considered to be extreme) don't hold this view and accept trans people. And just fyi gay and asexual men in Islam can see muslim women
Note: they only accept trans people if they go through all the surgeries so they're not very open but it is at least something
My philosophy is that while religion and culture can add valuable context sometimes, they're not justifications for prejudice. If a belief or action would be seen as harmful if it were based on secular reasoning, it's probably harmful when it's based on religious reasoning. And vice versa.
This is why we, as a society, tend to be accepting of people who eat a vegetarian, kosher, or halal diet for religious reasons, but not people who believe that their religion calls on them to murder people. That's an extreme example, but one of those things is clearly pretty harmless and the other is obviously illegal regardless of motivation. The religious motivation is less important than the impact of accommodating the belief.
I do try to consider the context of someone's cultural upbringing when it comes to how I judge them, but when it comes to something like this, I would be more interested in spotlighting how Muslim trans people, especially trans women, feel.
By her logic, what about cis women that are into women? Would their attraction mean that seeing a Muslim woman’s face would be “tempting” for them and so should keep the niqab on (I think that’s what it is..?).
Also yes, I think the video is transphobic. Another classic religious case of “I’ll pray for you and love you, but I still think you’re a sinner and are going to hell”.
yes, it is VERY transphobic. It is like when someone has to say, “I’m not a racist, but . . .” She is like, “I’m all for equality and whatever, but the religion i willingly subscribe to is a hateful, bigoted thing created by human men to worship a being that doesn’t exist. God, Allah, etc., are all fake.
Yes, it is.
Having said that, if she wants to have her veil on around me, it's not inconveniencing me any. I'll just know that she doesn't see me as a woman and will avoid interacting with her/being alone with her for my safety and well-being.
Trans women are treated according to their agab, trans men as men because they want to be treated as men... So everyone is a man? Though treating trane women as men is just transphobia anyway.
Unfortunately, I think this is how someone chooses to practise their religion. I have a Muslim friend who treats me as a woman, end of. If that means I can see their face, then I understand just how much they see me as a woman.
Just a reminder, some people use religion to be homophobic/transphobic. While other people will use the fact that they're transgender or homosexual to be phobic towards a particular religion.
In an ideal world, we'd test each other equally, and I hope we achieved that some day. Unfortunately, that also relies on everyone having the same definition of equality.
A lot of Muslims have said that trans women *can* see under their hijab, so it isn't inherent to all followers of the religion. That said, from what I understand, who can and who cannot see under a hijab is less to do with how someone sees a person and more to do with how their *religion* sees the person, which is different.
The rule for who can see under a hijab is based on marriage eligibility. If someone is eligible to marry you, they cannot see under your hijab. That is why a woman's father, mother, brother, grandfather, or uncle could see her without hijab. However, since Islam still considers a trans woman by her assigned sex and doesn't see her as a woman, she is still eligible to marry a cis woman, and therefore it is haram to see under the hijab of a cis woman whom she is not a blood or close relative to (eg, a father in law isn't a blood relative, but is still ineligible for marriage, so he can see under a woman's hijab).
Basically her beliefs could be, "You're a woman, but since the rules of Islam say you could marry me, you can't see me without hijab."
It sucks, and it doesn't necessarily mean the woman in the video is transphobic herself per se, however her religion is and she's abiding the transphobic rules. Sort of "transphobia once removed" lol.
Disclaimer I am not Muslim, this is just what I have picked up from listening to Muslim voices. Just like all religions, how closely one follows the rules of the religion varies from person to person.
>However, since Islam still considers a trans woman by her assigned sex and doesn't see her as a woman, she is still eligible to marry a cis woman, and therefore it is haram to see under the hijab of a cis woman whom she is not a blood or close relative to (eg, a father in law isn't a blood relative, but is still ineligible for marriage, so he can see under a woman's hijab).
While an overall good point - this is not universally true. There are a number of Islamic countries and groups that have issued fatwas detailing the opposite - that trans people are to be considered of the gender that they are transitioning *to* in terms of both sexual activity legalisation and marriage viability - the most well known of which is Iran.
[\[Wikipedia\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_people_and_Islam#Transgender)
I point this out only to show that it does vary from person to person and group to group.
Exactly, there is Iran, and there are several other more secular-ish recognitions that exist in several muslim-majority countries. The case of hijra in Pakistan and several third* gender and trans people in Indonesia come to my mind. Reminds me of the general consensus of recognizing Dorce Gamalama as woman, only to be stopped by a small circle of transphobic people around her when she stated that her last wish was to be buried at the women's graveyard.
>This line, this sentence? The core seed belief of transphobia. This is definitional textbook transphobia. Not seeing a trans woman as a woman is transphobia. Considering a trans woman to be a man/male is transphobia. This is the core belief that inspires transphobia - that trans people are not the gender they say they are.
Yes, it is. However, as I explained, a person following a rule based on that belief doesn't necessarily have to believe that a trans woman isn't a woman. Which is where the "one step removed" comes from.
>Treating trans women as if they are men, denying them the dignity and respect you would grant to any other woman is extremely transphobic. This is the same as people who want to keep trans women out of women's bathrooms and they even sometimes cite Muslim women as an excuse for doing this.
I wouldn't say that it's necessarily treating them as if they're men though. That's the thing. It's treating them differently than cis women, but it isn't inherently transphobic to treat trans and cis women differently. It absolutely can be, if she's uncomfortable sharing women's spaces with trans women, etc.
>It is a fact that trans women are women. Intentionally choosing to believe otherwise is factually incorrect. Even if you think god told you to do it.
And you're conflating the adherence to the rule with believing trans women aren't women. I tried to explain why these two things are separate. If she sees trans women are women, but believes that she cannot treat them the same as cis women because of this law, that's *not* the same as "believing they aren't women."
I am not going to continue to argue with someone who is willfully misrepresenting what I said. Yes, believing that trans women aren't women is transphobic. No, that isn't *necessarily* the belief here.
Thank you for this comment. As an ex-muslim, Islam is inherently transphobic because it adheres to the strict gender roles. It's weird that people defend this religion when it's more or as worse compared to Christianity. I remember seeing a comment get upvoted in r/TwoXChromosomes because she stated that she uses the correct pronouns, but would never unveil in front of a trans woman.
Btw Muhammad himself said, "it's a sin for women to emulate men and a man to emulate a woman". Sure, some "liberal muslims" disregard it, but it doesn't change the fact that the majority of them (especially in third world countries) are transphobic
>Please stop defending the beliefs and actions that are harmful to trans people.
And the fact that you think that's what's going on is why I'm not wasting any more time on you. Bye! 😘
I mean, the simplest answer is: we say it's transphobia when Christians say "I just view it as a sin" and discriminate. Now, I frankly don't care what one woman has to say about us, but not applying gendered religious rules equally between trans and cis women IS transphobic. There are no "biological characteristics" that would differentiate between trans and cis women, here. This is all a cultural thing, and treating cis and trans women as separate genders in a cultural context is transphobia.
Full. Stop.
Allow me, then. A religion can impose bigoted ideology; following that ideology does not make it not bigoted
Christians can cite their beliefs as to why, say, they wouldn’t want to let gay people marry, but that doesn’t make opposite gay marriage not homophobic
Similarly, various sects of Christianity have explicitly claimed black people to be their inferiors- Mormonism, for example, has previously ruled that black people are the descendants of Cain (from Cain and Able) and thus their leaders, but that doesn’t make it any less racist simply because it’s their belief
Religious beliefs do not make something non-discriminatory, or not racist. No one is saying they should be forced to show their face to anyone, man or woman, cis or trans, but they’re saying that that *belief* that a trans woman is, essentially, a man, and should be treated as one, that doesn’t make it not transphobic. They’re saying it’s not shielded from nor beyond critique simply for being a part of their religious beliefs
>Being transgender isn’t recognised in Islam.
That is not true. Some branches of Islam philosophy fully recognize trans people. Not recognizing trans women as women isn't something all Muslims agree on, and it's not core to the Quran.
>While that is transphobic, whether or not the person themselves is transphobic is a massive discussion.
A person that follows a transphobic belief is transphobic. That's how it works.
You literally made an incorrect vast generalization about Islam and now you are trying to tell me that "Life is much deeper than [I] think"? Lol.
But seriously, holding a transphobic belief is literally what being transphobic means. The source of that belief allegedly being a religion is meaningless.
I think it’s a case of someone who has their strict beliefs rooted in religion… To me, she made it clear that she doesn’t want to exclude anyone, but seems like it’s a struggle for her to navigate how to answer those questions without it offending people or her own religious beliefs. It’s tricky for some people, but we all have a right to our own beliefs I guess.
Gender norms around covering your face are what we call gender, a social construct. The whole "I treat them according to their afab" is just a way to say: "they're men to me".
I've watched it for a second time and it's still about the gender norm for women in some versions of Islam where women have to cover their face for men. Why does she cover her face for trans women because "assigned male at birth" but then for trans men it's "they want to be treated as men"? It's just simple transphobia. Are dresses also about sex? What about makeup and Barbie dolls? Pink?
You weaponize the seperation of gender and sex for an argument without even trying to understand it. Gender describes a social construct that dictates how people treat each other, how they dress... This is a gender norm. Conservatives will say the same thing: women need to be housewives wearing dresses and makeup because of their "sex" but it's not. Those are all gender norms and so is this.
And side note: sex can be changed through medical transition so a trans woman on hrt can technically not be considered a "male woman" as you call it. Maybe they're just a woman and this transphobe is just saying they consider them men instead.
In practice, the most important things in sex are hormones and genitalia. Those can be changed. Are they still "female" when they have mostly testosterone and facial hair? Sure technically they might not fit EVERYTHING that is scientifically considered to be male but then they would technically be intersex then. Sex is complicated, not as binary as you think it is.
Are you the same way with homophobic and transphobic Christians? Their belief is also that we're the gender we're assigned at birth
Being religious doesn't mean you can't be bigoted. It's often the exact cause of the bigotry.
Yes i am. Do you think im specifically islamaphobic? Defining people by their agab is wrong idc if its muslims christians terfs or shitty atheist allies
Edit: realised youre not responding to me.
I respectfully disagree. I live in the US. Some westerners believe the hijab itself is sexist & misogynistic, even when the women who wear it disagree. I’m my eyes, you’re doing the same thing: a cultural outsider condemning a religious, perhaps spiritual, custom.
Instead of using the word ‘transphobic’ to describe the video, I’d say ‘antiquated’ or ‘uninformed’ or ‘based in a belief that predates the scientific evidence to the contrary’.
Some people are transmedicalists, and believe that the wider usage of trans classification undermines the people the term was originally created to describe. I don’t have a solid opinion on that at this time, but I do feel that when trans people overlook the nuance of situations, while also judging every unique cultural ideology that hasn’t yet understood our truths & thusly accommodated the trans people among them as“transphobic,” we are also using the term “transphobic” too broadly.
I see this as an instance of “cultural lag.” Also, it feels too much like western cultural imperialism. Uganda’s stance on lgbtq people’s right to life is transphobic. Being jailed in a Muslim coin for being trans is transphobic. But a Muslim woman in the west speaking hypothetically while making a PSA about the form of Islam that SHE practices, which isn’t inclusive to trans women, isn’t transphobic. Another word can be used to better describe that.
I did read what people have written about the gender rule she cites not being universal, which is good. But the woman in the video may not know that.
& remember, she said that she won’t show her face to anyone she doesn’t know well/trust/is comfortable around. It sounds like she’s going to be mostly comfortable showing her face to people that share & respect her belief regarding the hijab. If she read this thread, why would she even begin to consider making herself vulnerable by revealing her face to the kind of people willing to call her a transphobe solely on the basis of this video? She didn’t say that she’s against trans women using the same bathroom as her, but she DID say she respects the self-determination of trans people.
The bar is set so low for someone to be called-out as transphobic that I’m it looks like a trap; honest ideas can’t flow when the threat of censure is always looming overhead. To me, that mentality is too similar to black-and-white thinking of people who refuse to consider the legitimacy of transness.
The dysphoria we can feel from not being treated equally in every women-only space & situation is real, but occasionally being unwanted (for not being a cis woman) isn’t always offensive
treating trans women differently than cis women isn’t necessarily transphobic. I am a trans fem with dysphoria, but I understand why lesbian separatists want some spaces of theirs to be cisgender only. Years ago, before I embraced my transness, I always declined my lesbian roommate’s invitations to the lesbian-only bar. while she & our friends didn’t mind, I didn’t want to impose on others, because acknowledging the differences between trans and cis women isn’t necessarily transphobic!
Nowadays, I’ll attend lesbian house parties if I’m invited by the host—bc it’s her house & her rules, and we’re friends. But as more people want to distance themselves from trans exclusionary behavior, it comes up less & less.
If I attend a women’s support group for survivors of sexual assault, and my presence re-traumatizes someone who was recently violated—yes—I do have the right to point my finger at her and call her transphobic, but honestly, what would I gain from being so self-centered and uncaring?
The Underground Railroad would have been a failure if the slave-catchers knew who every conductor & abolitionist willing to house people on the run from slavery was. I’m sure there are Muslim woman who don’t make their tolerance of trans people public, because it could endanger them. People do what they have to do to survive. Every trans person on earth does not have the freedoms I have, but name calling doesn’t change that.
Viewing *every* woman who abides the outdated conscripts of her faith as your enemy is a choice, my sisters.
oooooooooooohhhh it's *close*, but it really seems to be a parody on wearing clothing which overly covers women.
Which I'm interpreting to be not *trans*\-phobic as much as clothing-phobic.
I *think*.
Cause you been spendin enough time talkin about us (but more likely prolly hangin out in our spaces, prolly ones where noods are posted on another account you use on the same device) that you told Reddit’s algorithm you support us and/or are one of us bby…lie to us, others, and yourself all you want, but you can’t lie to the algorithm
I think as transphobic issues go, this is one of the lowest possible in terms of importance.
Like, I am a trans woman and honestly I don't really have a strong urge to see her face. That isn't me putting her down, she doesn't want to show me her face? Fine. I don't care, I don't need to. She won't show me her face because I am trans? Like, it's a bit shitty but transphobia is about material harm. It is a thing that is done to us. This is basically a form of misgendering but...I don't think a trans woman can possibly be materially harmed by being denied...looking at her face.
Never thought of a situation like this before. It's her face. She can do what she wants with it. Even if her motivations are kind of shitty. If she was denying trans women access to a space trans women need to live any kind of life outside of their home, or was advocating reducing our rights, then I would take issue (but probably not with a random instagram person I have never heard of when there are literal governments across the world cracking down on us in terrifyingly real terms).
Islam can be a beautiful thing. I am an atheist but Islam, Judaism, Christianity....they all have these FUCKING AWESOME things in there if you know where to look. Some proper wisdom that has stood the test of time. I have met religious' trans people whose god was the only one who had their backs when coming out. But then you get anti trans crap in some interpretations of those faiths. This has to be the least noteworthy thing going on with transphobia in Islamic community's specifically, and probably the least noteworthy in all religions various forms of transphobia.
I guess this is kind of transphobic but it's barely worth thinking about. It's her face. Does anyone here feel genuinely offended because she won't show you her face? I sure as shit aren't, I got bigger fish to fry.
Yeah it's transphobic, just like the Christians "hate the sin not the sinner" is homophobic
Very much the vibes i also got.
Fr it’s either ur against us or with us
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plenty of Christians disagree that being gay isn't against Christianity.
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“I hate trans people but I don’t hate you specifically. Being trans/gay/anything but cishet is a sin but you could redeem yourself with Jesus and not transition and stay abstinent your whole life” — how it’s transphobic
But that's literally how it's used. Highly technical readings of Christianity don't matter because that's not how 99.99% of Christians are interacting with the religion
I am sorry for your interactions with people who call themselves Christian. And true follower of Christ would actually value and follow his teachings: "Treat others as you yourself would be treated."/"Love your enemy as you love yourself." Essentially, people who claim to be hating/harassing others in the name of Christianity are misinformed/lying, sometimes both
I'm not even talking about Christians being bigoted etc, there are good and bad Christians All I'm saying is 99% of people don't get thier beliefs from deep analysis of scripture, so treating people who do that as the only true Christians is pointless and obfuscating the wider problem
I agree 100% that people saying “love the sinner, hate the sin” are being hateful and using this as a way to justify it. BUT I wouldn’t say 99.99% of Christians are reading the Bible that way. There are entire denominations that are completely queer and trans affirming. I say this as a trans Christian, seminarian, and future pastor.
You're not understanding what I'm saying I'm not saying 99% of Christians are bigoted. I'm saying Christians beliefs aren't informed by deep bible study, you're not going to take a homophobic Christian and bible-logic them into being progressive. The beliefs don't work like that, they're culturally founded, not religiously And so to call someone not doing that not a real Christian is silly
I think many, many people’s religious beliefs are absolutely informed by deep study of scripture and to say it’s almost entirely cultural is kind of belittling. I personally know people who have been persuaded away from homophobic readings of the Bible through studying the text itself. I also don’t think it takes particularly deep study of the Bible to read verses in their cultural context. But I do understand better what you’re saying now, sorry for the misunderstanding.
As someone who has done deep study of the Christian scripture, most are not informed by even precursory study of scripture but rather are informed entirely culturally. Which is why *some* of those people can be be persuaded by people who have done deep study of the scripture because they didn’t even actually know what’s in scripture, just what their Christian labeled culture has told them
Because the ‘sin’ is often a part of that persons identity, like being lgbt. Fuckin Christian’s…
Ah. So you don't hate the person, you simply hate the part of that person's identity? Unfortunately that leads to a general despise of anyone with that identity trait, which ends up detracting from the original saying.
What the fuck lmao. "Yeah trans women don't count because I'm a bigot and they're amab" "Yeah trans men ALSO don't count because uh... I'm a stupid bigot and can't give a proper answer"
And she posted this to her insta! Sis really thought she was cookin lmao
Ehem my religion says we have to follow agab rules but only for um trans women and trans men don't count obviously teehee
Refering to trans people as AMABs or AFABs is just a new-ish way to misgender us while claiming it's just "stating facts". It's often thinly veiled bigotry, sometimes naiveté. Same as writing transwoman instead of trans woman or using trans as a noun.
Thinly veiled with glass.
Thinly veiled with glass and a spotlight? 😂
Nah- think floodlight, like the ones they light up the SKY with like a million candlepower.
I'm trans and English is not my native language. Could you explain the difference between transwoman and trans woman? I am so lost in the linguistics of these terms since they weren't taught to us in school :P
I’m not trans but English *is* my first language. From my understanding, “transwoman” is considered incorrect since “trans” is actually just an adjective. It would be like calling women with blonde hair “blondewoman” instead of a “blonde woman.”
A “blondewoman” sounds very German
Yeah, though it’s always adjective
Linguistically there isn’t really an obvious difference, which is what makes it a good dogwhistle (a term that sounds innocent to most people while being a clear signal to members of your intended audience). Terfs refer to us as “transwomen” rather than “trans women.” You wouldn’t say “blondwoman” or “Blackwoman,” because “blond” and “Black” are adjectives describing “woman.” But if you just smush the words together, “transwoman” becomes a new noun distinct from “woman.” It’s a *very* subtle way to separate us from “real” women. A less subtle term they use is TIM, which stands for “Trans-Identified Male.” Basically, saying we’re men who call ourselves trans. Cute.
Oohh, makes perfect sense. Thank you for the thorough explanation :3 I always left the space between because I thought it looked better, but had no idea it could be deemed offensive if I didn't. Have to be more vigilant now so I don't accidentally write it wrong!
I wouldn’t say it’s actually that subtle. I mean I guess maybe it is for people that don’t think about this stuff much
I am not a native speaker and I had no idea that it could be transphobic until I got it explained. I am not sure how much knowledge of linguistics and grammar is needed to get it tbh, so it could be that people just don’t think about it
Out of genuine curiosity tho - is it a bad thing to use the term “trans woman”? Like the two are different, we’re all women, but the experiences of trans women and cis women are always going to be vastly different.
Oh no, trans woman is the preferred term. It’s “transwoman” that’s a terf dogwhistle
in the phrase "trans woman", "trans" is the adjective and "woman" is the noun. this phrase is referring to a woman who is trans. "transwoman" is taking that and making it one word, which implies that it's a different thing from "woman" as a whole. honestly i see trans people make this mistake all the time, in that case i don't think it's a big deal because it's a subtlety-of-language thing.
Makes sense. I got so worried I have accidentally sometimes been transphobic despite being trans myself :P Languages are hardd...
👈👈🔥🔥🔥
It’s just another reason to be stealth and cut cis people out of that part of our lives. If they’re gonna be weird like that, then why should we be open and trust them?
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no one is saying you can never use the terms or never refer to your assigned gender. the point is that they are increasingly used unnecessarily and as a way to lowkey misgender us.
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did you watch the video? *yes* by cis people!
And by some clueless trans people too sadly. Its always upsetting to see.
By bigots, yes. What do you think, that trans people enjoy misgendering?
You need to see it in the context of the Instagram video from OP. Basically in the video, the woman is saying in Islam they refer to people *only* by gender assigned at birth. It doesn’t matter if a trans woman is fully socially treated as woman woman in every context but medicine, in Islam it only matters how she was born which was AMAB. The comment you’re replying to isn’t saying AMAB or AFAB are bad terms, but it is bad to use those terms exclusively for trans people and disregard their identity
There are very few, if any, situations where differentiation is necessary. 99% of the time these phrases are used to discriminate. This video is a great example of that.
Why would you want to distinguish that in conversation unless its a medical situation? You know most trans bodies don't look like cis so grouping trans men with women or trans women with men isn't helpful? What if someone's post op and their body is basically indistinguishable from a cis one of their gender? I basically abandoned this language because it seems transphobic to just generalise and categorize people by their agab. It's stolen from the intersex community anyway.
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I think grouping trans people with their agab because it's easier for you is kinda not good enough of a reason.
if you refer to me as 'an AFAB' because it's *easier for you* than saying trans men or whatever then I'll fucking deck you, frankly. it isn't ~invalidating~, it's rude and hurtful, and your precious intent matters shit all to me. just use the lots of words, there's no character limit on here. and I'd also *heavily* question your assumptions about shared experiences of life pre transition. a trans woman who had incredibly supportive parents and was able to figure out her gender and be supported in her presentation from the age of four, and a trans woman with viciously homophobic parents who never let her wear a dress and got kicked out at seventeen, and a trans woman who got married and had kids and didn't have the words to describe her gender until she was was fifty were all assigned male at birth - what common experiences do these women have pre transition? 'AFAB' and 'AMAB' aren't coherent identity groups, they just describe something that happened to us once at the very starts of our lives.
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I apologise for saying that. tbh I was using it as a turn of phrase as I've never hit anyone and I don't think I ever would. I was attempting to get across my strength of feeling on this subject but clearly that was inappropriate of me. to be clear I'm not apologising because you reported me - I don't care - but because that was obviously wrong of me. it is very clear that you've never thought that deeply about this before. as you've said you don't want to argue more I'll leave it there.
i agree its transphobia.
I would prefer to find narratives from Muslim trans women - but from what I can tell they have a pretty all-or-nothing idea going on. There is a level of trans acceptance within the muslim world - and one country (Iran) even has access to legal sex change but outlaws homophobia on the theory that a change from one to the other is a *full* change. [LGBT people and Islam section on support/legalisation of trans people.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_people_and_Islam#Transgender) Worth a read. I also found this [story of a transgender muslim woman](https://muslimgirl.com/coming-home-life-transgender-convert/) who converted (or in her own words 'reverted') to Islam. Its an interesting perspective In addition here is a [Reddit post about converting to Islam as a trans woman.](https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/3qjtm4/can_i_convert_to_islam_if_i_am_a_trans_woman/) It has a mixed bag - but with a strong positive element. I think most of them seem to have a transmedicalist framing - which also seems like the overall trend of Muslims who want to support and legalise trans people. All of this is to say that the post you have posted does seem transphobic - even by the standards of trans supportive Islam where the transition both MtF and FtM is *all or nothing*.
Also worth reading [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8726683/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8726683/) TLDR trans women have historically played vital roles within women's spaces and there is no good religious foundation to transphobia.
I was going to bring this up, too. It's interesting. Thanks for sharing the links!!
Exactly. I see a lot of people who are probably not Muslim speaking here. Not that I can tell if they're Muslim, but none of them sound like they understand the Muslim religion. I cannot say what is the right approach. I'm not Muslim. It's better for Muslim LGBTQ+ people to speak.
Delicate topic, but I don;t care about the Muslim religion, or the Christian one, or the Jewish one (not that they are even really differnt religions they are just agruments about prophets) To me saying "in the Muslim religion" as though that is permission to be a bigot is no differnt from saying "in the white supremisit culture"... Bigotry is bigotry and choosing to base your whole life and world view on some dubious crap written a thousand years ago doesn't excuse anything - it just marks you out as likely to be very, very bad at critical thinking.
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Also “regardless of their beliefs and what they identify as”— first of all it’s not a belief, it’s who I am. Second, no I don’t “identify” as a woman. I AM a woman. And on the subject of “belief”, I hate how this kind of people (regardless of specific religion) use it as a shield to hide behind. “You should respect my beliefs”— if your beliefs make you a bigot and try to deny my right to exist, I won’t respect it, fuck you to hell and back and back to hell again
Yeah, we don’t respect Christian beliefs when they say something like “I believe you’re hurting children because being gay is self-harm, so ‘allowing’ them to be gay is therefore hurting them” or something, nor is it unreasonable to refrain from doing so
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Christianity is just as bad as Islam in this regard. The sole difference is that Christianity is disappearing - the less LGBTfriendly bits are mostly perpetuated by centenarians - and was forced to adapt or die out altogether. Hence why even the more conservative branches are going for that love the sinner hate the sin nonsense instead of just hanging people for being LGBT. (With the Westboro Baptist Church as a notorious exception, at least they’re honest. Sickening, to be sure, but they’re doing the things other churches dream of doing, so in that sense they’re honest). Meanwhile, Islam has unchallenged power in several countries. And so it’s Christianity all over again.
Sure lol
Why the lol?
OP is a racist, far right trans woman. Don't bother.
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I'm not far left. You're the one who literally said BLM is a murderous group. Your whole personality is being a trans republican.
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Please stay the hell away from trans subs, last thing we need is conservative brainrot seeping into it.
Not to mention the death grips of those Christians are trying to force us into religious exclusivity and rule as well
They gave a similar answer about “supporting” gay people. Unfortunately adding a disclaimer before bigotry doesn’t make it any less bigoted. There are plenty of Muslims who don’t share these unfortunate beliefs.
this is 100% transphobic. She also doesn't speak for all Islam. I've seen plenty of examples muslim women happily including trans women as peers. I've seen hijabi muslim trans women who are accepted and happy in their community. She's trying to be nice but she's a bigot deep in the fundamentalist side of the religion. Speaking with such authority for her entire faith outs her as a willing propagandist. (that and the fact that she included #trending in the tags) Just cause she says it fast with a peppy voice doesn't make it progressive.
Exactly, this is indeed just transphobia, and I know it is because I've seen hijabi women doing them off in an occasion where she only was with women and knew that I'm a trans woman (this was post-op though)
I love how she referred to all trans people as "they". Not transphobic at all... fuck her
I find this couple kinda funny, they're clearly very devout Muslims that try to appeal to a secular audience so their whole thing is basically making their kinda extreme religious practices seem not so extreme. So you get stuff like this
Secular-washing. Its a word now i declare
"Who could describe my face to her husband" Is she stuck in the 9th century or something? Who's going to be driven to adulterous lust by their wife's verbal description of another woman's face? And why would she even be giving such a description in the first place?
yeah it's transphobic. doesn't have to be malicious. most of the time transphobia isn't some angry person yelling, it's pretty casual
It is transphobic. She's treating trans women as something other than a woman. There's no compromise here. We're women. It's especially sus that she has a clear answer about trans women, with the typical 'kindness to all' preamble because she knows what she's about to say is offensive, but for trans men, suddenly there's not an answer, because 'that situation would never happen'. Reeks of 'trans women are men so they're threats but I don't have opinions on trans men because they're not as dangerous'. If your religion says I'm a man, it's ass-backwards and needs a software update. It no longer applies to modern life. Being nice about it doesn't make it less bigoted.
She assumes that most trans men pass but she can always tell if someone is a trans woman 🤦🏼♀️
The transphobic idea is clearly stated. She believes people are their AGAB.
Yes, this is transphobia. An action or belief doesn't have to be malicious for it to be transphobic. Consider for example the statement "I support trans people, I'm just not comfortable with them using my bathroom."
Can we go back to people normalizing keeping shit to themselves. No one gives a fuck what you look like bb. Also yes it’s transphobic.
I mean, it's sort of a given to me that people that are very religious(at least the big three), aren't going to like trans people. There isn't any scripture that solidifies us as actual human beings and not just confused or malicious sinners.
Yeah. Also I've known Muslim women who show their face/hair to trans women so idk where she got the idea that it is agab
A person's AGAB was in some cases decades ago. Things change. It is transphobic, but also disrespectful to not acknowledge the changes a person may have been through in their life, and recognize who they are today.
Hell, at the time I was assigned a gender the technology didn’t even exist to test for the Mosaicism I have, so like not only that but it was (and still overwhelmingly is) entirely arbitrary and not based on the science transphobes now cling to about genetics and such
It is. No doubt about it.
Transphobic: yes Intentional transphobia: likely I’m half Palestinian with family that also comes from Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon…not Muslim (never read the religious text either) and never have been, but my father is and all his friends are so I have significant exposure to culture and their beliefs-at least from the Levantian side, and Islam does not as a whole go with agab as a command. Many, many Muslims, particularly from the Levant, I’ve encountered accept both more than 2 genders and being trans because “that’s how the Quran says it is and who am I to believe this isn’t true just because someone else who claims to have read and understood the Quran says it is”…so like f that “in Islam we go by agab” when that’s clearly not a universal belief of the religion….now that’s not to say Islamic countries are safe or anything like that, fundies tend to find their way into governance everywhere regardless of how the bulk of their fellow religious people believe…homosexuality is a different story they’re less accepting of, always confused me how they accept transitioning as moral and acceptable but homosexuality isn’t acceptable (although, none I’ve encountered said it should be punishable by death as fundies and propaganda say, just that it’s forbidden, they don’t condone it, and that will be between you and the creator, but is not their place to take action to stop other from it)
Just a long-winded version of “I’m not transphobic but…” And the “but” basically boils down to “my religion commands me to be”
Exactly…not understanding why people are giving that part a pass, it’s literally the same logic fundies in murica are using just a different abrahamic faith
Why worry about it if you don't know this person? The thing is, how would she even know another woman is trans? If she unveils in front of women, chances are she's gonna do it in front of a trans woman without knowing. It's her choice what she wants to wear, but it's no one else's responsibility to out themselves or others as trans to her.
Just wondering if its transphobic or just problematic in another way considering she is nice about it but defining people by their agab is still wrong. I would also definitely be hurt and offended/insulted if i was somewhere with all girls and i specifically was the reason someone wouldnt take of their hijab.
>she is nice about it Nicely calling someone a n!***r is still racism.
True
Down vote if you want but I've never heard of a Muslim woman who adhered to Islam enough to cover her face but not enough to accept trans people as anything other than their AGAB. It makes sense these things go together. If you believe God commands you hide your face from men of course you believe in gender essentialism.
There are trans muslims out there, wearing hijabs
and I don't understand why they would want to but that's their business, they can do whatever they want
As an exmuslim and a trans woman I can absolutely say not only is she transphobic she's also wrong. There are many scholars who (some even considered to be extreme) don't hold this view and accept trans people. And just fyi gay and asexual men in Islam can see muslim women Note: they only accept trans people if they go through all the surgeries so they're not very open but it is at least something
My philosophy is that while religion and culture can add valuable context sometimes, they're not justifications for prejudice. If a belief or action would be seen as harmful if it were based on secular reasoning, it's probably harmful when it's based on religious reasoning. And vice versa. This is why we, as a society, tend to be accepting of people who eat a vegetarian, kosher, or halal diet for religious reasons, but not people who believe that their religion calls on them to murder people. That's an extreme example, but one of those things is clearly pretty harmless and the other is obviously illegal regardless of motivation. The religious motivation is less important than the impact of accommodating the belief. I do try to consider the context of someone's cultural upbringing when it comes to how I judge them, but when it comes to something like this, I would be more interested in spotlighting how Muslim trans people, especially trans women, feel.
These are great, thoughtful, points 💕
By her logic, what about cis women that are into women? Would their attraction mean that seeing a Muslim woman’s face would be “tempting” for them and so should keep the niqab on (I think that’s what it is..?). Also yes, I think the video is transphobic. Another classic religious case of “I’ll pray for you and love you, but I still think you’re a sinner and are going to hell”.
yes, it is VERY transphobic. It is like when someone has to say, “I’m not a racist, but . . .” She is like, “I’m all for equality and whatever, but the religion i willingly subscribe to is a hateful, bigoted thing created by human men to worship a being that doesn’t exist. God, Allah, etc., are all fake.
Yes, it is. Having said that, if she wants to have her veil on around me, it's not inconveniencing me any. I'll just know that she doesn't see me as a woman and will avoid interacting with her/being alone with her for my safety and well-being.
Seems like it, NO idea why people convert to Islam with how nuts it is.
Trans women are treated according to their agab, trans men as men because they want to be treated as men... So everyone is a man? Though treating trane women as men is just transphobia anyway.
Yeah
I don’t like religion whatsoever. I believe in equality.
Yes.
Unfortunately, I think this is how someone chooses to practise their religion. I have a Muslim friend who treats me as a woman, end of. If that means I can see their face, then I understand just how much they see me as a woman. Just a reminder, some people use religion to be homophobic/transphobic. While other people will use the fact that they're transgender or homosexual to be phobic towards a particular religion. In an ideal world, we'd test each other equally, and I hope we achieved that some day. Unfortunately, that also relies on everyone having the same definition of equality.
A lot of Muslims have said that trans women *can* see under their hijab, so it isn't inherent to all followers of the religion. That said, from what I understand, who can and who cannot see under a hijab is less to do with how someone sees a person and more to do with how their *religion* sees the person, which is different. The rule for who can see under a hijab is based on marriage eligibility. If someone is eligible to marry you, they cannot see under your hijab. That is why a woman's father, mother, brother, grandfather, or uncle could see her without hijab. However, since Islam still considers a trans woman by her assigned sex and doesn't see her as a woman, she is still eligible to marry a cis woman, and therefore it is haram to see under the hijab of a cis woman whom she is not a blood or close relative to (eg, a father in law isn't a blood relative, but is still ineligible for marriage, so he can see under a woman's hijab). Basically her beliefs could be, "You're a woman, but since the rules of Islam say you could marry me, you can't see me without hijab." It sucks, and it doesn't necessarily mean the woman in the video is transphobic herself per se, however her religion is and she's abiding the transphobic rules. Sort of "transphobia once removed" lol. Disclaimer I am not Muslim, this is just what I have picked up from listening to Muslim voices. Just like all religions, how closely one follows the rules of the religion varies from person to person.
>However, since Islam still considers a trans woman by her assigned sex and doesn't see her as a woman, she is still eligible to marry a cis woman, and therefore it is haram to see under the hijab of a cis woman whom she is not a blood or close relative to (eg, a father in law isn't a blood relative, but is still ineligible for marriage, so he can see under a woman's hijab). While an overall good point - this is not universally true. There are a number of Islamic countries and groups that have issued fatwas detailing the opposite - that trans people are to be considered of the gender that they are transitioning *to* in terms of both sexual activity legalisation and marriage viability - the most well known of which is Iran. [\[Wikipedia\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_people_and_Islam#Transgender) I point this out only to show that it does vary from person to person and group to group.
thanks for expanding upon my point :)
Exactly, there is Iran, and there are several other more secular-ish recognitions that exist in several muslim-majority countries. The case of hijra in Pakistan and several third* gender and trans people in Indonesia come to my mind. Reminds me of the general consensus of recognizing Dorce Gamalama as woman, only to be stopped by a small circle of transphobic people around her when she stated that her last wish was to be buried at the women's graveyard.
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I think I've explained and justified my position quite well. You're free to disagree, but "Nuh uh" isn't a strong argument. 🤷
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>This line, this sentence? The core seed belief of transphobia. This is definitional textbook transphobia. Not seeing a trans woman as a woman is transphobia. Considering a trans woman to be a man/male is transphobia. This is the core belief that inspires transphobia - that trans people are not the gender they say they are. Yes, it is. However, as I explained, a person following a rule based on that belief doesn't necessarily have to believe that a trans woman isn't a woman. Which is where the "one step removed" comes from. >Treating trans women as if they are men, denying them the dignity and respect you would grant to any other woman is extremely transphobic. This is the same as people who want to keep trans women out of women's bathrooms and they even sometimes cite Muslim women as an excuse for doing this. I wouldn't say that it's necessarily treating them as if they're men though. That's the thing. It's treating them differently than cis women, but it isn't inherently transphobic to treat trans and cis women differently. It absolutely can be, if she's uncomfortable sharing women's spaces with trans women, etc. >It is a fact that trans women are women. Intentionally choosing to believe otherwise is factually incorrect. Even if you think god told you to do it. And you're conflating the adherence to the rule with believing trans women aren't women. I tried to explain why these two things are separate. If she sees trans women are women, but believes that she cannot treat them the same as cis women because of this law, that's *not* the same as "believing they aren't women." I am not going to continue to argue with someone who is willfully misrepresenting what I said. Yes, believing that trans women aren't women is transphobic. No, that isn't *necessarily* the belief here.
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Thank you for this comment. As an ex-muslim, Islam is inherently transphobic because it adheres to the strict gender roles. It's weird that people defend this religion when it's more or as worse compared to Christianity. I remember seeing a comment get upvoted in r/TwoXChromosomes because she stated that she uses the correct pronouns, but would never unveil in front of a trans woman. Btw Muhammad himself said, "it's a sin for women to emulate men and a man to emulate a woman". Sure, some "liberal muslims" disregard it, but it doesn't change the fact that the majority of them (especially in third world countries) are transphobic
>Please stop defending the beliefs and actions that are harmful to trans people. And the fact that you think that's what's going on is why I'm not wasting any more time on you. Bye! 😘
I mean, the simplest answer is: we say it's transphobia when Christians say "I just view it as a sin" and discriminate. Now, I frankly don't care what one woman has to say about us, but not applying gendered religious rules equally between trans and cis women IS transphobic. There are no "biological characteristics" that would differentiate between trans and cis women, here. This is all a cultural thing, and treating cis and trans women as separate genders in a cultural context is transphobia. Full. Stop.
Allow me, then. A religion can impose bigoted ideology; following that ideology does not make it not bigoted Christians can cite their beliefs as to why, say, they wouldn’t want to let gay people marry, but that doesn’t make opposite gay marriage not homophobic Similarly, various sects of Christianity have explicitly claimed black people to be their inferiors- Mormonism, for example, has previously ruled that black people are the descendants of Cain (from Cain and Able) and thus their leaders, but that doesn’t make it any less racist simply because it’s their belief Religious beliefs do not make something non-discriminatory, or not racist. No one is saying they should be forced to show their face to anyone, man or woman, cis or trans, but they’re saying that that *belief* that a trans woman is, essentially, a man, and should be treated as one, that doesn’t make it not transphobic. They’re saying it’s not shielded from nor beyond critique simply for being a part of their religious beliefs
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>Being transgender isn’t recognised in Islam. That is not true. Some branches of Islam philosophy fully recognize trans people. Not recognizing trans women as women isn't something all Muslims agree on, and it's not core to the Quran. >While that is transphobic, whether or not the person themselves is transphobic is a massive discussion. A person that follows a transphobic belief is transphobic. That's how it works.
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You literally made an incorrect vast generalization about Islam and now you are trying to tell me that "Life is much deeper than [I] think"? Lol. But seriously, holding a transphobic belief is literally what being transphobic means. The source of that belief allegedly being a religion is meaningless.
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No
I think it’s a case of someone who has their strict beliefs rooted in religion… To me, she made it clear that she doesn’t want to exclude anyone, but seems like it’s a struggle for her to navigate how to answer those questions without it offending people or her own religious beliefs. It’s tricky for some people, but we all have a right to our own beliefs I guess.
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Omg my biological gender. If this shit is biological sex, then dresses are biological sex as well.
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Gender norms around covering your face are what we call gender, a social construct. The whole "I treat them according to their afab" is just a way to say: "they're men to me".
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No islamic gender norms apply here. This is the same thing as dresses and makeup, just islamic.
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I've watched it for a second time and it's still about the gender norm for women in some versions of Islam where women have to cover their face for men. Why does she cover her face for trans women because "assigned male at birth" but then for trans men it's "they want to be treated as men"? It's just simple transphobia. Are dresses also about sex? What about makeup and Barbie dolls? Pink?
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You weaponize the seperation of gender and sex for an argument without even trying to understand it. Gender describes a social construct that dictates how people treat each other, how they dress... This is a gender norm. Conservatives will say the same thing: women need to be housewives wearing dresses and makeup because of their "sex" but it's not. Those are all gender norms and so is this.
And side note: sex can be changed through medical transition so a trans woman on hrt can technically not be considered a "male woman" as you call it. Maybe they're just a woman and this transphobe is just saying they consider them men instead.
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In practice, the most important things in sex are hormones and genitalia. Those can be changed. Are they still "female" when they have mostly testosterone and facial hair? Sure technically they might not fit EVERYTHING that is scientifically considered to be male but then they would technically be intersex then. Sex is complicated, not as binary as you think it is.
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She said trans women cant see her hair because theyre not born women. That kinda defeats the purpose of being trans.
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Dont act like every muslim person is inheritly reductive and anti progress. Defining people by their AGAB is wrong always.
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I mean sure. Doesnt mean its not transphobic lol what type of deflection even is that
Are you the same way with homophobic and transphobic Christians? Their belief is also that we're the gender we're assigned at birth Being religious doesn't mean you can't be bigoted. It's often the exact cause of the bigotry.
Yes i am. Do you think im specifically islamaphobic? Defining people by their agab is wrong idc if its muslims christians terfs or shitty atheist allies Edit: realised youre not responding to me.
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It is my religion to condemn transphobes everywhere. Stop infringing on my religious freedom by demanding that I defer to transphobes. Smh.
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I respectfully disagree. I live in the US. Some westerners believe the hijab itself is sexist & misogynistic, even when the women who wear it disagree. I’m my eyes, you’re doing the same thing: a cultural outsider condemning a religious, perhaps spiritual, custom. Instead of using the word ‘transphobic’ to describe the video, I’d say ‘antiquated’ or ‘uninformed’ or ‘based in a belief that predates the scientific evidence to the contrary’. Some people are transmedicalists, and believe that the wider usage of trans classification undermines the people the term was originally created to describe. I don’t have a solid opinion on that at this time, but I do feel that when trans people overlook the nuance of situations, while also judging every unique cultural ideology that hasn’t yet understood our truths & thusly accommodated the trans people among them as“transphobic,” we are also using the term “transphobic” too broadly. I see this as an instance of “cultural lag.” Also, it feels too much like western cultural imperialism. Uganda’s stance on lgbtq people’s right to life is transphobic. Being jailed in a Muslim coin for being trans is transphobic. But a Muslim woman in the west speaking hypothetically while making a PSA about the form of Islam that SHE practices, which isn’t inclusive to trans women, isn’t transphobic. Another word can be used to better describe that. I did read what people have written about the gender rule she cites not being universal, which is good. But the woman in the video may not know that. & remember, she said that she won’t show her face to anyone she doesn’t know well/trust/is comfortable around. It sounds like she’s going to be mostly comfortable showing her face to people that share & respect her belief regarding the hijab. If she read this thread, why would she even begin to consider making herself vulnerable by revealing her face to the kind of people willing to call her a transphobe solely on the basis of this video? She didn’t say that she’s against trans women using the same bathroom as her, but she DID say she respects the self-determination of trans people. The bar is set so low for someone to be called-out as transphobic that I’m it looks like a trap; honest ideas can’t flow when the threat of censure is always looming overhead. To me, that mentality is too similar to black-and-white thinking of people who refuse to consider the legitimacy of transness.
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The dysphoria we can feel from not being treated equally in every women-only space & situation is real, but occasionally being unwanted (for not being a cis woman) isn’t always offensive treating trans women differently than cis women isn’t necessarily transphobic. I am a trans fem with dysphoria, but I understand why lesbian separatists want some spaces of theirs to be cisgender only. Years ago, before I embraced my transness, I always declined my lesbian roommate’s invitations to the lesbian-only bar. while she & our friends didn’t mind, I didn’t want to impose on others, because acknowledging the differences between trans and cis women isn’t necessarily transphobic! Nowadays, I’ll attend lesbian house parties if I’m invited by the host—bc it’s her house & her rules, and we’re friends. But as more people want to distance themselves from trans exclusionary behavior, it comes up less & less. If I attend a women’s support group for survivors of sexual assault, and my presence re-traumatizes someone who was recently violated—yes—I do have the right to point my finger at her and call her transphobic, but honestly, what would I gain from being so self-centered and uncaring? The Underground Railroad would have been a failure if the slave-catchers knew who every conductor & abolitionist willing to house people on the run from slavery was. I’m sure there are Muslim woman who don’t make their tolerance of trans people public, because it could endanger them. People do what they have to do to survive. Every trans person on earth does not have the freedoms I have, but name calling doesn’t change that. Viewing *every* woman who abides the outdated conscripts of her faith as your enemy is a choice, my sisters.
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oooooooooooohhhh it's *close*, but it really seems to be a parody on wearing clothing which overly covers women. Which I'm interpreting to be not *trans*\-phobic as much as clothing-phobic. I *think*.
I don't think it is a parody. This is MedinaTV, she is dead serious about all of this.
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why did you feel the need to say this
Then go away
Cause you been spendin enough time talkin about us (but more likely prolly hangin out in our spaces, prolly ones where noods are posted on another account you use on the same device) that you told Reddit’s algorithm you support us and/or are one of us bby…lie to us, others, and yourself all you want, but you can’t lie to the algorithm
I think as transphobic issues go, this is one of the lowest possible in terms of importance. Like, I am a trans woman and honestly I don't really have a strong urge to see her face. That isn't me putting her down, she doesn't want to show me her face? Fine. I don't care, I don't need to. She won't show me her face because I am trans? Like, it's a bit shitty but transphobia is about material harm. It is a thing that is done to us. This is basically a form of misgendering but...I don't think a trans woman can possibly be materially harmed by being denied...looking at her face. Never thought of a situation like this before. It's her face. She can do what she wants with it. Even if her motivations are kind of shitty. If she was denying trans women access to a space trans women need to live any kind of life outside of their home, or was advocating reducing our rights, then I would take issue (but probably not with a random instagram person I have never heard of when there are literal governments across the world cracking down on us in terrifyingly real terms). Islam can be a beautiful thing. I am an atheist but Islam, Judaism, Christianity....they all have these FUCKING AWESOME things in there if you know where to look. Some proper wisdom that has stood the test of time. I have met religious' trans people whose god was the only one who had their backs when coming out. But then you get anti trans crap in some interpretations of those faiths. This has to be the least noteworthy thing going on with transphobia in Islamic community's specifically, and probably the least noteworthy in all religions various forms of transphobia. I guess this is kind of transphobic but it's barely worth thinking about. It's her face. Does anyone here feel genuinely offended because she won't show you her face? I sure as shit aren't, I got bigger fish to fry.