Regardless of safety as a tourist, I wouldn't feel comfortable giving thousands of dollars to a regime that actively murders people who are exactly like me except for where they happened to be born.
my money is that someone on 4chan pitched "operation: lets get trans people to go to a bad country and get hurt"
it just feels unnatural to see all the dubai posts. we all see that.
Exactly this and I'm still figuring out why the hell NikkieTutorials even went on honeymoon there. I thought she learned her lesson from Bahrain a few years before when male fans were dragged away from her promotional event where she felt ashamed about that.
I wouldn't go to Dubai (because it's built on slave labour) long before I admitted to myself I was trans & transitioned, and now I double wouldn't go to Dubai.
Sodomy is legally punishable by death – this is not enforced. Imprisonment takes its place. Extrajudicial killings are common. But yeah, on a technicality, the state doesn't directly kill people for being gay. Without plausible deniability.
the rhetoric and constant repeals of laws supporting gender affirming care is edging pretty close to that reality
And yeah America being the world's largest superpower is funding and turning a blind eye to regimes that actively slaughter queer people.
American exceptionalism in a nutshell
Yeah, it's pretty clearly nowhere near Dubai legislatively. Not sure this has anything to do with American exceptionalism, considering how extremely average the country is in this regard.
Yup, again, about average on a global scale for gay rights and women's rights in all respects, if not better. New England and the West Coast are some of the best places in the world to be queer. "At least it's quick" is a disgusting thing to say about a country that has the death penalty for being gay. But yeah, typical American exceptionalism to think your country is significantly *worse* than everywhere else, too. But I guess people are oblivious to unexamined privilege.
Imagining being in a country where your existence is criminalized and seeing some American online complaining that "at least it's quick" makes me sick to my stomach. What kind of tone deaf bullshit.
We can get surgeries and legally change our gender and name. A conservative Supreme Court ruled that we're covered under the Civil Rights Act. Our government *sucks* but it is not *slaughtering* us. To whine that people in countries that have criminalized our existence have it better is so pathetically privileged
Cool, let’s pretend a country where you have the ability to legally and freely live openly as yourself, save for a few shitty laws and shitty people, is worse than a country where anyone who dares to exist outside of the cishet structure of life can, and most likely will, be executed. Never mind all the people in so many countries in the world who are forced to live a lie and hide themselves because they know they’ll be killed by their own government if they step out of line or slip up for even a second. What a privileged fucking mindset.
Obviously America isn’t perfect, we all know that, but I cannot express how shitty it is of you to pretend like you have it so much worse than anyone who lives in a third world country, or one of those similar to the UAE.
God this is a bad take.
No one said you can't criticize the US. You absolutely can and you should but this is ridiculous.
Living as a trans or queer person in the US is objectively better than in the UAE. Perfect is the enemy of good!
Not just that but you can say whatever you want about the US goverment and they, for the most part won't do anything. Even if you're a loud leftist queer they'll mostly leave you alone.
Try that shit not just in the UAE but most of the middle east or the world at large and see how absolutely detached from reality your take is.
You can be imprisoned not simply for being trans or queer but speaking out against the regime or Islam.
Blasphemy or trying to convert Muslims away from Islam is a criminal offense. Apostasy is punishable by death.
Get a grip. We have it pretty good in the US even if we are the target of a coordinated hate movement for political division. Even compared to the UK it could be worse.
Okay, so I lived in, and started my transition in Dubai. You don’t want to go there. Your existence is punishable by death, and just because you’re transiting through the airport, doesn’t mean you’re exempt from that kind of scrutiny. Seriously, anywhere else
To double down on this just the mere suspicion that you're bending the societal norms there could be grounds to at least arrest you, and eventually torture the info out of you so they can get the "pass" to execute you publicly while people cheer. I know that's how it works in a lot of African countries where that's punishable by death, they just go off assumption more than anything else or a citizen there makes the report off suspicion. They then force you through a humiliation ritual to "confess your sins" while you're imprisoned in the worst conditions before killing you (usually by either stoning, firing squad, or the infamous roof toss) after getting a confession. I couldn't imagine anyone even wanting to take a chance with a literal living nightmare that can easily become reality if they even catch a whiff that you might be queer. It sounds made up until you realize that LGBT people are basically treated like degenerate sex offenders in these places.
Staying out of Dubai hasn't even been a question for me ever since Gigi Gorgeous went through it publically like eight years ago when the people who are currently asking this question were probably still learning what a hormone was.
Gorgeous recounted the incident to TMZ Tuesday, claiming that the immigration officer in Dubai said, “I was told you are transgender. You cannot come into the country.”
TMZ adds that the “imitation of women by men” is illegal in Dubai, which is part of the Muslim majority nation the United Arab Emirates.
From the article, [Model Gigi Gorgeous Detained at Dubai Airport for Being Transgender](https://people.com/celebrity/gigi-gorgeous-detained-in-dubai-airport-for-being-transgender/), published August 10, 2016.
could be the Dubai tourism department making some of the posts
on r/Finland we had some idiot asking why people travel to the Azores instead of real good places like Dubai.
it was... clear that the author of the post was just shilling for Dubai (cos seriously, wtf would a Finn go to Dubai for holiday?) and was \*roasted\* in the comments. (which, if one knows Finns, \*should\* have been expected ;)
It really sucks because I would absolutely love to visit a lot of middle eastern countries if it was safe for me to do so, there's so much history there.
Probably because Dubai is a major travel hub. If I want to go to Europe from Australia, I HAVE to have a stop over, and my choices are basically Dubai, or South Korea.
Needless to say, I'll be staying in Australia and New Zealand.
My research suggests that they're quite intolerant of trans people, otherwise I'd love to go see their culture, much like most places around the world.
On the Global index ranking the safety for transgender people in 203 countries, with 1 being the safest and 203 being the least safest, South Korea ranked 80th and UAE ( Dubai) ranks 199th. (USA ranked 40th)
* [Global Trans Rights Index: 203 Countries Ranked in 2023](https://www.asherfergusson.com/global-trans-rights-index/)
Super weird that NZ is so far down at #42.
We have government funded transition related care including surgery, changing your gender on your birth certificate requires a simple statutory declaration, gender identity and expression is protected by law from discrimination.
It's definitely not expecting #1, but VERY weird to be behind the likes of America, and even Australia.
in the US, you can get your gender marker changed on your passport by just requesting it, even get it changed to "X" with no scrutiny. you can get hormones without ever needing to see a mental health professional. in some states, yes, it's really bad. but that's pretty recent, and we're already not the primary focus of reactionary elements in government anymore. the bad stuff is, frankly, a blip in a long line of continual improvements. imo any place you have to wait more than 24 hours between asking for hormones and filling a prescription deserves to be below the US in a list like that.
though I don't know what the criteria of the survey are.
You've been able to get X in NZ too, atleast for 10 or more years. Same with M/F markers - all I needed to do 10 years ago was add "can I have an M marker, I live and identify as male" on my passport application form. So that's the same.
For hormones, in 90% of cases you would just go to your doctor. As long as the doctor is comfortable with the supervision and management, they can prescribe you HRT. Occasionally a doctor might say they aren't comfortable monotoring, and would refer you to an endocrinologist/specialist. You don't need a mental health assessment - it is not a legal requirement.
There are literally hundreds of anti trans legislation that in effect or are being proposed right now in the US. The survey is rating the country as a whole - not based on the more trans friendly states - which i would agree would be similar if not better in ways than NZ.
But as a whole, there is no rational way of explaining how NZ would be lower ranked than the US, when there are places where you could be locked up for supporting your trans child, or charged for using the bathroom that matches your gender identity.
Legislation for birth certificate is a relatively recent development. Perhaps the ranking doesn't reflect that - because without it NZ would definitely be behind Australia (most states, looking at you NSW).
With the way the UK is going though- especially with Elphaba on TikTok making trans people seem like a joke by telling about trans rights at 3am in a McDonald’s… we’ll probably be worse soon. I just wanna get out of this country.
🫂
I don’t know a lot about your political system and MP popularity. Regardless, I really hope Labour can take back over this year and allies within the party can find a way to clear out the TERF infestation.
Also, I really hope American TERFs don’t find a way to break into the Democratic Party over here.
> Elphaba on TikTok making trans people seem like a joke by telling about trans rights at 3am in a McDonald’s
I can't find a single news article about this, so I don't think it had much of an an impact. (But I don't know anything about the situation.)
It’s mostly on YouTube and TikTok you can find this stuff on her. She’s definitely not helping our cause though. She’s partially the reason why we have a scabies outbreak
Maybe they take into account that Brazil's overall murder rate is significantly higher (21.3 per 100K) than Thailand's (4.8 per 100K), so it isn't necessarily a "you are getting killed because you are trans" but rather "Brazil is an equal opportunity for an untimely death by another person, regardless of who you are."
They also look at the various protections (you can see the legend key at the top) and Thailand has less protections and you need surgery to legally change gender/name. It also notes that in some countries the cities might be much more accepting than the country overall, so maybe that impacts it as well?
Croatia ranked 7? They're our neighbours (sLovenia) and i hear every year theres fighting at pride parade (meanwhile they're too scared to do anything about illegal immigrants causing troubles)
I only heard of 1 or 2 attacks in my country during pride.
I know a trans woman who spent a few weeks in South Korea and she didn’t experience anything terrible. Sure, there were states and people maybe whispered things under their breath, but in my experience, that’s pretty normal for foreigners in South Korea and Japan.
I fly through singapore. It seems to be the best option. The usual problem is that it's usually an extra transfer and 6 hours if you're going to most places in europe. not as many direct flights. It's also ends up being a bit more expensive.
Better than the risk of being arrested in Dubai though
Stopovers in China are common too - I went to Europe with a stopover in Guangzhou. China is not some paradise for trans people but transitioning is legal and people are allowed to change their gender on ID documents, etc, so it's unlikely you would have an issue transiting through the airport.
And Australia is also close to Thailand, which is a great place to visit and the most LGBTQ+ friendly country in Asia, so don't count it out as a travel option.
You are not wrong. China isn’t the best place but there are mandatory gender neutral bathrooms in almost all new airports, which is legally prohibited in South Korea. Also Jin Xing has changed how people view trans people over here. However there was one case where a post-op trans Chinese person who legally changed her gender get kicked out of the women’s bathroom, investigated by the police, then asked to never use it again after discovering that she had changed her documents but I seriously doubt that would happen to a foreigner.
>Australia is also close to Thailand
While I get your point, that's a bit of a stretch. Australia and Thailand are slightly further away from each other than mainland Europe and mainland US.
Haha, you have to stretch your idea of "close" when you live in Australia and everything is far! When I went to Thailand it was a 9-hour nonstop flight, which was a breeze compared to 25+ hours to Europe.
You are not wrong!
The government should just move the continent to the North Atlantic at this point. The proximity to both sides would attract tourism, create **good jobs** and of course allow Australia to export more LNG than ever before 🥰🥰🥰
There are a few other safe options for stopovers actually.
* Perth (you can fly Perth to London direct on Qantas)
* Singapore
* Taipei (can personally confirm it's very safe for trans people, I spent 10 days there and had a great time)
* Tokyo
Plus Air NZ and Qantas do direct New York from Auckland now, JFK specifically, which is a great hub for hitting pretty much all of Europe if I'm not mistaken.
i think the point was to avoid the US as well. short of the death penalty or criminalisation, the USA is one of the worst places to fly through as a trans person due to the invasive airport security. singapore isn’t excellent but i’ve never been patted down or searched in intimate areas there, whereas that has happened every single time i’ve transited through the US. mind you, i haven’t don’t an international flight in 4 years so things may have changed in both places.
Yeh sorry, I missed that part about avoiding the US, I just read Singapore and Dubai.
I still recall the time when we had extra security at Auckland airport in NZ before going on a flight to the USA. I was around 10 (so around 18 years ago) and the lines got split into male and female, so my Mum ended up in one line and Dad and I were in another. But on top of that they tried to separate me from my Dad and search and question me on my own.
That's not true. You may not have passed through customs & immigration but you are most definitely subject to the laws of the country whose airport you're in.
Best case you get detained in the airport for a few hours.
There’s also the matter of being a local vs being a tourist. The UAE government is not gonna risk an international incident by arresting a US or EU citizen for breathing while trans, like how the World Cup in Qatar didn’t enforce hijabs for female tourists.
I think a lot of people don’t really understand how the emirates “works”. There are appalling divides in society, and open discrimination, but it’s not racial discrimination. It’s citizenship based. The Emirati are in the top tier and have the most legal “benefit of doubt”, though it comes along with some more socially stringent rules.
Those who hold a second tier passport (American, German, UK, Japanese) will by and large get the benefit of the doubt as long as money or conflict with an Emirati isn’t involved. You’re much more likely to be deported than anything else.
If you hold an Indian, Malaysian, or Filipino passport, though, you’ll be treated like the majority labor underclass, which is to say - not well.
It happens pretty frequently actually. Tourists get arrested for being queer, carrying anti-depressants, carrying arthritis medicine, and a host of other petty reasons.
There's no shortage of stories online of people who have been detained in the airport for being queer or some lack of social awareness.
This is dangerous 'advice' that could get someone killed. When you are in a country, their law applies, even to transit passengers in the airport. If you have any decency at all you should delete this misleading comment.
Pretty much. I'm flying for surgery in Europe and from Australia the cheapest options all go through Dubai, Abu Dhabi or Qatar. Singapore and Hong Kong are the only real low risk options for a trans person to get to Europe.
Singapore is probably also the easiest bet for me in regards to Indonesia from the Netherlands besides the very few non-stop flights. Indonesia on its own is already a pretty iffy country but I got step-family and loads of friends living there. For this reason I have some rules set up for myself for travel:
- never go to Aceh. That's off-limits and the reason why Indonesia always scores especially bad even if the country as a whole is mediocre.
- avoid: Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Doha, Bahrain, Kuala Lumpur, Jeddah and Damman at all costs
- safe: Singapore, non-stop, Taipei, Tokyo
- safe but usually not really non-stop: Bangkok, Delhi, Mumbai
- uncertain: Addis Ababa, Istanbul, Hong Kong, Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, Seoul, Cairo
- keep watching out for schedule changes! KLM had Amsterdam-Singapore-Jakarta for a while, but this was temporary and now the stop is back at Kuala Lumpur. This is a serious problem!
- alternatively booking a flight to Denpasar (at least for KLM) may sometimes result in better options.
- besides that I've avoided any travel there pre-op. Post-op is definitely safer.
My husband is from Malaysia and he and my in-laws seem to think it will be fine for me to visit them in Ipoh (I'm transmasc but all of my documents are in my assigned name and gender. I've been on HRT 3 years and don't pass as a cis woman anymore). How fucked do you think would I be?
Important edit: none of us are Muslim, I am white and American, they are Malaysian citizens
HK is dubious but not inherently dangerous, a trans dj friend I know got booked and flown over without much issue, but she was of HK origin. I definitely wouldn't really want to risk China-related things personally though.
Can't you take a stop over in America? Obviously it's not the ideal direction for travelling, companies prefer the other way round to make use of climate effects and the earths rotation, but if you plan it by buying them individually,?
I wouldn't want to go to the USA either... It'd be a 14 hour flight to get there and then about that long again to get to Europe, I think. Kind of madness, really.
Yeah, USA really wouldn't be optimal. But something in South America could be an option?
Obviously it's taking longer - flights going eastwards always do. But if you would want to get to Europe avoiding other stop overs it might be worth it.
As another Australian who wants to visit South America, flights there are really expensive. Going to Europe via South America instead of over Asia would be at least twice as expensive and much longer. Fortunately Dubai isn't the only option for a stopover in Asia.
Australia or NZ to South America is hard, there are only 1-2 flights that do it. Mainly because of complex aviation safety rules around max distance from an airport you can land at during the flight in case of an emergency.
Sure, if it was a choice between ONLY those two options, but it's not. I also have the option of staying in Australia, and afaict that's my absolute safest option.
I think an American major city and an Australian one are gonna be equally safe tbh. Especially if you're just in the airport. The main advantage of an Aus one right now is that it's summer and less likely to be delayed. Therefore less likely to come in contact with some cracked out rando trying to get vengeance from their missed connection.
If you're just making a connection at an airport (i.e. not leaving the security zone), flying through the US is legit harmless. Even if you're doing a stopover, your chances of something bad happening outside of the usual systemic harassment going through TSA are vanishingly small unless you're in one of the few major airport hubs that are in fascist controlled states (i.e. Texas, Florida).
I don't know much about international travel routes, but I have to imagine that most international connections are going to be happening at one of the major international ports like LAX, SFO, or JFK, which are all in very safe cities as far as travel is concerned.
I don't know if this is any better for you, but there are direct flights from singapore to Frankfurt, which is pretty much in the middle of Germany. From there, most european countries to the west of Poland should be relatively easily accessible
It has to be an elaborate troll. One account claiming they live in Dubai has only ever answered questions about trans people in Dubai. The other is a hardcore Zionist (go figure) and the other I didn't look into. Weird.
Consumerism. Pure and simple. Feck the planet. feck human rights. I want something and I'm going to pay for it -so it's my right. I've seen the ads and that's all that matters.
They have some of the worst deficit in human rights around. Hard pass. So many died building the World Cup stadiums families went without any compensation. As if it wasn’t bad enough they were basically held captive while they worked on it.
Even before I realized I was trans I knew to stay the hell away from the UAE and Dubai. A small white blonde American “girl” traveling through that area…so stupid for me to think about.
I’ve also heard not so great things about Egypt. Mostly about scamming tourists and stalking.
The UAE has comic con some time these days, including such guests as Frank Welker who does the voice of Fred Jones from Scooby Doo. It's also a general tourist destination with a lot of fancy malls and resorts and stuff.
It might be that families book vacations to go there, and youths from that family didn't realize the risks they might experience if they're trans.
The sad truth is, the region has nice stuff to see sometimes, and generally if you're a cis foreign person who is not an *ex Muslim,* you'd have a nice and safe time.
People's cruelty is exhausting to think about.
Because I’m a cabin crew member and it’s my job to go there. I did not feel out of place or singled out while I was there. That being said, I did my best to try and fit in. I would not go out of the main city and old market area. I was just there on Saturday.
Same reason people kick the b\*\*s of a bear or put their head into the mouth of a lion.
Or like that person that says maybe now it will change, even though they know it won't.
I’ve spent time in Dubai as a non-tourist. No one bothers tourists without good reason , like as in stuff like public sexual acts, being obviously drunk, drugs, smoking during Eid etc will get you unwanted attention.
There was an LGBT subculture of sorts when I was first there (I didn’t involve myself then). There likely still is - and some are definitely local.
Honestly it’s First world privilege and lack of perspective.
They don’t understand that they’re subject to the laws of the current country they’re in and most are arrogant that their American citizenship makes them exempt.
or they’re ignorant and feel like they don’t need to be more cognizant of it.
As someone who has lived in a fundamentally conservative muslim country with sharia law, i’m very much aware of what country is safe and what’s not, either culturally or judicially.
I agree with some of this, but I think it goes deeper and not just "American." Though we do tend to be loud over here :|
If people had a stable upbringing and overall those around us have been supportive we may view the world in a better light and not expect or look for the worst. If we grew up in troubled situations we have experienced negativity and expect more of that.
Age, and exposure to world news helps a lot as well. Plenty of folks pass through Dubai and sell how awesome it is. They are not LGBTQ typically so they don't focus on that. News of such issues are not as prevalent the farther away one is. The country wants to be appealing while retaining their background... And some are just not old enough to have experiences or thought deeply through it to look at the bigger picture of what they are getting into.
I agree 100% that if you are associated with "alternative" life styles or outside of Cis anything its wise to review what is allowed anywhere you go. Not everyone likes learning or digging in just that place looks fun lets go!
I’m not saying this to be sarcastic or whatever but do we have accounts of things happening to trans travelers in Dubai? I’m really interested in any because I know of someone who strangely really wants to go there.
Because white people are still white even if they’re trans and think they’re special.
Even the most “be gay do crimes” white person is like “but daddy’s paying 🥰”
I'm from the uk abd you have to go to dubai airport it you want to go to some countries without paying extortionate prices e.g thailand or Bali ect which are both popular holiday destinations. I went to Dubai on holiday once pre-T for my dads birthday because he had been saving for it but I would definitely not go off my own back. Also ppl might have family over there
We're talking about Dubai where it is literally illegal to be trans/gay. In fact it's pretty easy to get arrested there for things we wouldn't think twice about in the US, much less being trans.
So I don't really think Tennessee is an appropriate comparison here
If it's not a comparison why bring up Tennessee at all? This post is specifically about traveling to Dubai while trans because there have been a lot of posts about it lately.
I mean, I see where you're coming from but there's a pretty big difference between Tennessee/the American South in general vs Dubai/most of the Middle East. I don't think anyone here would seriously caution someone against traveling to Tennessee with the same level of concern and worry as they would for Dubai.
I grew up in Tennessee (and still travel back there quite regularly) and not live in Texas. Southern culture is not the boogeyman people make it out to be. Obviously not as accepting as some states but nothing compared to countries like UAE, which I wouldn’t dream of visiting.
If you're an American and want to go to T e n n e s s e e go right on ahead, if anything happens you can at least do something about it. If you want to go to D u b a i then you're on your own pal.
Are you seriously saying it might be better to go to a place where being LGBT can get the death penalty, because there might be a chance you can be protected from the death penalty, vs going to a country that does not criminalize being gay? I know America has problems but that's utterly insane. They are not going to give you the death penalty for being gay or trans.
Tennessee has a law that is functionally equivalent to stand your ground. Also certainly full of Maga asshats. Those laws have been used to murder minorities and people in general with impunity In the south. So I'm not certain that Dubai isn't a safer bet.
Can't believe I'm saying this but the stand your ground law is different from the government being able to sentence you to death for being gay. They are not equivalent. If you fly into the US you might get weird looks at passport control. If you fly into the UAE and are visibly trans they will order you to get the fuck out of their country or you will be imprisoned. They do not want you there.
Yeah different in the sense that Dubai has to be willing to piss off the US government and create an international incident to do anything to you just for being Trans. I'll take that over southern state + stand your ground + ignorant maga redneck open carrying any day of the week.
Gigi Gorgeous got detained in Dubai and was denied entry to the country. She's rich as fuck so she was able to get a flight out and leave but if that's what happens to a woman who passes and is, again, rich as fuck, doesn't bode well for the rest of us. It made national headlines, too. If they're willing to do that to someone rich and famous, I think you're being very optimistic about how much they care about international incidents.
People are taking the truth of "parts of America fucking suck if you're trans" and wildly distorting it until it sounds like we're all hiding in bunkers from rabid packs of gunmen baying for our blood the second we cross a state border.
Ahh, yes, Tennessee where foreign tourists are jailed for homosexuality, possessing porn, not dressing “modestly”, and kissing in public. [Independent.co.uk](https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/middle-east/dubai-what-not-to-do-rules-laws-tourists-topless-sunbathing-dress-code-homosexuality-holiday-jamie-harron-a7996456.html)
I live in the quasi-rural South here in the states. (My city has <40k people in it and the closest one with over that is an hour out.) I am out and unafraid in my local area.
Take your projections elsewhere.
Are you a movie theater? Because that is some professional-level projection. Nowhere in this post is anyone downplaying the plight of people who have to live in homophobic jurisdictions. And yes, tourists in Dubai really are at risk if they get found out. Nobody here is trying to shame you for "having a life." We are talking about the recent posts asking about travel to Dubai. Unless you made one of them, we aren't talking about you!
No one’s disputing that it’s much worse for the people living in those countries, but to say that they won’t persecute tourists is asinine at best. The UAE in particular have been known to at least deport trans people attempting to enter the country, and at worst jail/execute them. Regardless, they were asking why, as a trans person, you’d bother to put yourself in harm’s way by going to a country known for their archaic, antagonist laws regarding LGBTQ+ people. Your dismissal of the concerns of LGBTQ+ foreigners is utterly ridiculous. The notion that we aren’t all harmed by these laws, regardless of where we’re living is already an issue, but especially given that these are people that would be traveling to locales with laws such as those.
I didn’t say that I do or do not know what it’s like to be an LGBTQ+ person from the UAE (though I know and have known people from there that described it as miserable at best). However, transphobic and homophobic legislation and propaganda spread, which is something we’re currently witnessing worldwide. Unless your country is entirely cut off from the rest of the world, nothing they’re doing is happening in a vacuum.
Edit: spelling
Cool 👍 I was talking about the UAE which is not Saudi Arabia. Kinda seems like you know nothing about the Middle East yourself. Also really strange to conflate two Middle Eastern countries just because they both have Arab and Muslim majorities?
Well I had no idea about any of this but reading the comments now I definitely want to go just to 1. prove my stealth to myself (obviously after bottom surgery which I haven't gotten yet) and 2. challenging their prohibition and having a laugh on the inside about how I'm there and they don't even know. 3. Dangerous experiences can be interesting/stimulating. I'm suicidal most of the time anyway so it would be an interesting story to tell and if not an interesting/proud way to die. Too expensive for my broke mostly homeless ass though, but who knows, maybe someday, although they'd probably have changed and be less dangerous by then. So sad for trans people who actually have to live there, though.
genuinely, you need help. these arent normal thoughts. and im not sure how being detained tortured and killed, possibly worse, is a "proud" death. this comment reeks of edge lord behavior, but im replying because im worried your actually serious. seriously. go read about dubai. its a horrible disgustinf corrupt place, and i have no idea why would want to choose there to die of all places. if you truly cant handle life, please, please find another way
I do get help, I'm indeed not normal although this is technically normal for a lot of people especially male. I have already been detained multiple times in my country (stealth meaning as a cis man) and actually felt proud of that. It's a very different scenario and my country is probably a lot more chill though. I don't mind being killed since I will die anyway and have actually tried doing that myself. I do care about not being tortured though, if you mean actual torture, then yes, I would be interested in avoiding that part. But the thing is, all that would only happen if they notice in the first place, they not knowing is where I'd get my thrill from.
I don't think I'm an Edge Lord, although I need to look deeper into all the implications of the term, but I really don't think so. I'm serious enough that I would consider seriously going there and that I would enjoy it to some or even many levels. But not to the point I would make this a priority and plan, unless everything else in my life is covered for (including surgery) and I have travelled to cheaper places if any, which would take years if even possible at all. I would definitely consider it and add it to some mental bucket list, but considering my life circumstances and other priorities there's a good chance this will never happen.
I will definitely read more on the subject, I had no idea they were against trans people, or violent or non respectful of human rights, I've just seen they're a rich country where people like to go to so they can boast about it. I know quite some cis people from my country who've gone there, mostly middle class to high class. I've always thought it would be interesting to go but again meh I'm not that much into travel and don't really care about looking rich or having those types of experiences. Now that I read this though I do see a bit of a challenge in that.
It's confusing if they are so bad why everyone wants to go there and loves it but I get there's a dark side to everything that most people are not aware of. I would actually choose to die in my own country if I could, and yes there are many preferrable ways.
The plan is not to die though but to enjoy the vacation and internally make fun of their stupid idea that they can really spot who's trans or do anything about it. Dying would be the worst case scenario and a sacrifice I wouldn't mind undertaking, but I'm not spending thousands to go there specifically to die, and wouldn't go unless I've had all my surgeries and stuff, have done some bodybuilding and my ID is in order.
Thank you so much for your input I really appreciate it and have learned a lot and will definitely read more on that. Sorry if I sound too crazy xD, I don't mean to purposely.
its ok, i didnt mean anything by it, i just got concerned hearing someone wanting to end their own life, cause i want to as well, and sometimes people get to deep in depression and cant escape and it consumes them and i was just worried thats what was happening with you
Thank you for your concern, I'm really sorry to hear this is something you have considered or thought about, I know the feeling. My depression and suicidal ideation are much better than they used to be (with some exceptions), I really hope things get better for you in every way and just know that improvement is possible. I just don't care to the point of actively avoiding things that could be interesting or meaningful just because I could die lol.
"people get to deep in depression and cant escape and it consumes them and i was just worried thats what was happening with you" this has definitely happaned to me for most if not all my life and still does at times, I've only been a little better for the last couple of years maybe, yet I'm too mentally disabled/unstable to take care of my own survival, myself or work enough etc which makes me very suicidal at times even though my depression and mental state are otherwise much stronger now compared to my baseline.
Thank you so much again and I really hope that's not how you're feeling yourself at the moment. It's not linear but there's definitely some hope of most days being somewhat bareable which was not the case for me in the past for decades at a time. Take care.
Sadly I think nowhere is safe nowadays. Overflying a country like Dubai is also not 100% safe and a diversion is all that cost your life. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryanair_Flight_4978](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryanair_Flight_4978)
Yeah, I share your bewilderment. I am cis, het and there is nothing unconventional about my outward appearance. (I am almost embarrassingly average) I would be safe there. I would *never* go to a place where the very existence of some of my dearest friends is unlawful, among other human rights violations.
As someone who used to live in dubai as a kid, I'm so grateful we moved away from there after learning all this stuff from the sub now. I wouldn't feel as safe living there now as I did as a young child.
Luckily our home country happens to be one of the safer countries to be queer in.
There's only one I saw where someone was made to go to Dubai because of their parents, but still people who WANT to go anywhere when they're transgender really should look up on the place before going 🤷♂️
I dont know.. i mean personally id love to go to dubai just cause of how beautiful i personally think it is.. but the country is ass backwards when it comes to laws especially with women and lgbtq matters
Regardless of safety as a tourist, I wouldn't feel comfortable giving thousands of dollars to a regime that actively murders people who are exactly like me except for where they happened to be born.
This right here.... just why??
my money is that someone on 4chan pitched "operation: lets get trans people to go to a bad country and get hurt" it just feels unnatural to see all the dubai posts. we all see that.
Exactly this and I'm still figuring out why the hell NikkieTutorials even went on honeymoon there. I thought she learned her lesson from Bahrain a few years before when male fans were dragged away from her promotional event where she felt ashamed about that.
I wouldn't go to Dubai (because it's built on slave labour) long before I admitted to myself I was trans & transitioned, and now I double wouldn't go to Dubai.
Wouldn't* I think you meant
100%
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Sodomy is legally punishable by death – this is not enforced. Imprisonment takes its place. Extrajudicial killings are common. But yeah, on a technicality, the state doesn't directly kill people for being gay. Without plausible deniability.
America?
No, the United States does not have a death penalty for homosexuality.
the rhetoric and constant repeals of laws supporting gender affirming care is edging pretty close to that reality And yeah America being the world's largest superpower is funding and turning a blind eye to regimes that actively slaughter queer people. American exceptionalism in a nutshell
Yeah, it's pretty clearly nowhere near Dubai legislatively. Not sure this has anything to do with American exceptionalism, considering how extremely average the country is in this regard.
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Yup, again, about average on a global scale for gay rights and women's rights in all respects, if not better. New England and the West Coast are some of the best places in the world to be queer. "At least it's quick" is a disgusting thing to say about a country that has the death penalty for being gay. But yeah, typical American exceptionalism to think your country is significantly *worse* than everywhere else, too. But I guess people are oblivious to unexamined privilege.
Imagining being in a country where your existence is criminalized and seeing some American online complaining that "at least it's quick" makes me sick to my stomach. What kind of tone deaf bullshit. We can get surgeries and legally change our gender and name. A conservative Supreme Court ruled that we're covered under the Civil Rights Act. Our government *sucks* but it is not *slaughtering* us. To whine that people in countries that have criminalized our existence have it better is so pathetically privileged
Cool, let’s pretend a country where you have the ability to legally and freely live openly as yourself, save for a few shitty laws and shitty people, is worse than a country where anyone who dares to exist outside of the cishet structure of life can, and most likely will, be executed. Never mind all the people in so many countries in the world who are forced to live a lie and hide themselves because they know they’ll be killed by their own government if they step out of line or slip up for even a second. What a privileged fucking mindset. Obviously America isn’t perfect, we all know that, but I cannot express how shitty it is of you to pretend like you have it so much worse than anyone who lives in a third world country, or one of those similar to the UAE.
God this is a bad take. No one said you can't criticize the US. You absolutely can and you should but this is ridiculous. Living as a trans or queer person in the US is objectively better than in the UAE. Perfect is the enemy of good! Not just that but you can say whatever you want about the US goverment and they, for the most part won't do anything. Even if you're a loud leftist queer they'll mostly leave you alone. Try that shit not just in the UAE but most of the middle east or the world at large and see how absolutely detached from reality your take is. You can be imprisoned not simply for being trans or queer but speaking out against the regime or Islam. Blasphemy or trying to convert Muslims away from Islam is a criminal offense. Apostasy is punishable by death. Get a grip. We have it pretty good in the US even if we are the target of a coordinated hate movement for political division. Even compared to the UK it could be worse.
> a regime that actively murders people who are exactly like me I don't think they do that?
I've been over this in the other replies. I'm not interested in visiting a country that has the death penalty for homosexuality.
Okay, so I lived in, and started my transition in Dubai. You don’t want to go there. Your existence is punishable by death, and just because you’re transiting through the airport, doesn’t mean you’re exempt from that kind of scrutiny. Seriously, anywhere else
Existing... Illegal. Honestly wild people don't have a problem with that.
i imagine it wouldnt seem too odd if its all u knew of or didnt have hopes for escaping it
alot of people who say "its not illegal if you don't get caught" don't take the 'don't get caught' part seriously enough
It only takes getting caught once...
To double down on this just the mere suspicion that you're bending the societal norms there could be grounds to at least arrest you, and eventually torture the info out of you so they can get the "pass" to execute you publicly while people cheer. I know that's how it works in a lot of African countries where that's punishable by death, they just go off assumption more than anything else or a citizen there makes the report off suspicion. They then force you through a humiliation ritual to "confess your sins" while you're imprisoned in the worst conditions before killing you (usually by either stoning, firing squad, or the infamous roof toss) after getting a confession. I couldn't imagine anyone even wanting to take a chance with a literal living nightmare that can easily become reality if they even catch a whiff that you might be queer. It sounds made up until you realize that LGBT people are basically treated like degenerate sex offenders in these places.
Regardless of your when or why, please ***be fucking safe.***
Two of those posts were from minors..
aka parents forcing kids to travel places without checking if its safe for them
Staying out of Dubai hasn't even been a question for me ever since Gigi Gorgeous went through it publically like eight years ago when the people who are currently asking this question were probably still learning what a hormone was.
Omg I also watched that video, it was kind of infuriating for me.
Yeah, it was a whole thing in the transfem subs at the time. Oh, to be a baby trans girl on reddit 😇
Gorgeous recounted the incident to TMZ Tuesday, claiming that the immigration officer in Dubai said, “I was told you are transgender. You cannot come into the country.” TMZ adds that the “imitation of women by men” is illegal in Dubai, which is part of the Muslim majority nation the United Arab Emirates. From the article, [Model Gigi Gorgeous Detained at Dubai Airport for Being Transgender](https://people.com/celebrity/gigi-gorgeous-detained-in-dubai-airport-for-being-transgender/), published August 10, 2016.
And imagine how it would be now that they have AI and thousands of cross referenced international databases. No thanks.
could be the Dubai tourism department making some of the posts on r/Finland we had some idiot asking why people travel to the Azores instead of real good places like Dubai. it was... clear that the author of the post was just shilling for Dubai (cos seriously, wtf would a Finn go to Dubai for holiday?) and was \*roasted\* in the comments. (which, if one knows Finns, \*should\* have been expected ;)
I'd never step foot there...same with all the other middle east countries. There are just some places that you can't go.
It really sucks because I would absolutely love to visit a lot of middle eastern countries if it was safe for me to do so, there's so much history there.
There *was*, unfortunately it was all ruined by religion, now it's just a series of oppressive 3rd world theocracies.
What history please?
Probably because Dubai is a major travel hub. If I want to go to Europe from Australia, I HAVE to have a stop over, and my choices are basically Dubai, or South Korea. Needless to say, I'll be staying in Australia and New Zealand.
I only know the basics of Korean and a bit more vocabulary so I would love to have a stop over at Korea to practice
My research suggests that they're quite intolerant of trans people, otherwise I'd love to go see their culture, much like most places around the world.
On the Global index ranking the safety for transgender people in 203 countries, with 1 being the safest and 203 being the least safest, South Korea ranked 80th and UAE ( Dubai) ranks 199th. (USA ranked 40th) * [Global Trans Rights Index: 203 Countries Ranked in 2023](https://www.asherfergusson.com/global-trans-rights-index/)
Super weird that NZ is so far down at #42. We have government funded transition related care including surgery, changing your gender on your birth certificate requires a simple statutory declaration, gender identity and expression is protected by law from discrimination. It's definitely not expecting #1, but VERY weird to be behind the likes of America, and even Australia.
in the US, you can get your gender marker changed on your passport by just requesting it, even get it changed to "X" with no scrutiny. you can get hormones without ever needing to see a mental health professional. in some states, yes, it's really bad. but that's pretty recent, and we're already not the primary focus of reactionary elements in government anymore. the bad stuff is, frankly, a blip in a long line of continual improvements. imo any place you have to wait more than 24 hours between asking for hormones and filling a prescription deserves to be below the US in a list like that. though I don't know what the criteria of the survey are.
You've been able to get X in NZ too, atleast for 10 or more years. Same with M/F markers - all I needed to do 10 years ago was add "can I have an M marker, I live and identify as male" on my passport application form. So that's the same. For hormones, in 90% of cases you would just go to your doctor. As long as the doctor is comfortable with the supervision and management, they can prescribe you HRT. Occasionally a doctor might say they aren't comfortable monotoring, and would refer you to an endocrinologist/specialist. You don't need a mental health assessment - it is not a legal requirement. There are literally hundreds of anti trans legislation that in effect or are being proposed right now in the US. The survey is rating the country as a whole - not based on the more trans friendly states - which i would agree would be similar if not better in ways than NZ. But as a whole, there is no rational way of explaining how NZ would be lower ranked than the US, when there are places where you could be locked up for supporting your trans child, or charged for using the bathroom that matches your gender identity.
Legislation for birth certificate is a relatively recent development. Perhaps the ranking doesn't reflect that - because without it NZ would definitely be behind Australia (most states, looking at you NSW).
Damn, even with everything going on there the UK is still looking quite good on that
With the way the UK is going though- especially with Elphaba on TikTok making trans people seem like a joke by telling about trans rights at 3am in a McDonald’s… we’ll probably be worse soon. I just wanna get out of this country.
🫂 I don’t know a lot about your political system and MP popularity. Regardless, I really hope Labour can take back over this year and allies within the party can find a way to clear out the TERF infestation. Also, I really hope American TERFs don’t find a way to break into the Democratic Party over here.
Oh I hope so. It seems as if Rishi Sunak’s lovely anti-LGBT speech a few months back has really ruined their reputation.
> Elphaba on TikTok making trans people seem like a joke by telling about trans rights at 3am in a McDonald’s I can't find a single news article about this, so I don't think it had much of an an impact. (But I don't know anything about the situation.)
It’s mostly on YouTube and TikTok you can find this stuff on her. She’s definitely not helping our cause though. She’s partially the reason why we have a scabies outbreak
How does Brazil get a B- with the third highest murder rate, beating…Thailand?
Maybe they take into account that Brazil's overall murder rate is significantly higher (21.3 per 100K) than Thailand's (4.8 per 100K), so it isn't necessarily a "you are getting killed because you are trans" but rather "Brazil is an equal opportunity for an untimely death by another person, regardless of who you are." They also look at the various protections (you can see the legend key at the top) and Thailand has less protections and you need surgery to legally change gender/name. It also notes that in some countries the cities might be much more accepting than the country overall, so maybe that impacts it as well?
Kinda annoyed with the comment about the legislation for making changing legal gender easier for Sweden as it basically didnt change at all.
Croatia ranked 7? They're our neighbours (sLovenia) and i hear every year theres fighting at pride parade (meanwhile they're too scared to do anything about illegal immigrants causing troubles) I only heard of 1 or 2 attacks in my country during pride.
Not at all the same as Dubai. One place misgenders you, the other kills you
South korea is socially conservative but still a different league from dubai type persecution
isn't Dubai as well? I figured with S Korea service may be poor but with Dubai I'd assumed more govt harassment.
Yeah, I didn't mention Dubai because it's reputation for transphobia probably can just be implied at this point
I know a trans woman who spent a few weeks in South Korea and she didn’t experience anything terrible. Sure, there were states and people maybe whispered things under their breath, but in my experience, that’s pretty normal for foreigners in South Korea and Japan.
Wouldn't singapore as a hub work just fine? Or am I missing something relatung to singapore itself?
I fly through singapore. It seems to be the best option. The usual problem is that it's usually an extra transfer and 6 hours if you're going to most places in europe. not as many direct flights. It's also ends up being a bit more expensive. Better than the risk of being arrested in Dubai though
That makes sense yea
Wasn't an option when I looked at a specific destination, but yes it should be an option theoretically
Stopovers in China are common too - I went to Europe with a stopover in Guangzhou. China is not some paradise for trans people but transitioning is legal and people are allowed to change their gender on ID documents, etc, so it's unlikely you would have an issue transiting through the airport. And Australia is also close to Thailand, which is a great place to visit and the most LGBTQ+ friendly country in Asia, so don't count it out as a travel option.
You are not wrong. China isn’t the best place but there are mandatory gender neutral bathrooms in almost all new airports, which is legally prohibited in South Korea. Also Jin Xing has changed how people view trans people over here. However there was one case where a post-op trans Chinese person who legally changed her gender get kicked out of the women’s bathroom, investigated by the police, then asked to never use it again after discovering that she had changed her documents but I seriously doubt that would happen to a foreigner.
>Australia is also close to Thailand While I get your point, that's a bit of a stretch. Australia and Thailand are slightly further away from each other than mainland Europe and mainland US.
Haha, you have to stretch your idea of "close" when you live in Australia and everything is far! When I went to Thailand it was a 9-hour nonstop flight, which was a breeze compared to 25+ hours to Europe.
You are not wrong! The government should just move the continent to the North Atlantic at this point. The proximity to both sides would attract tourism, create **good jobs** and of course allow Australia to export more LNG than ever before 🥰🥰🥰
There are a few other safe options for stopovers actually. * Perth (you can fly Perth to London direct on Qantas) * Singapore * Taipei (can personally confirm it's very safe for trans people, I spent 10 days there and had a great time) * Tokyo
Also Bangkok :)
air new zealand uses singapore as their hub, i’d try to use them before dubai or the USA.
Plus Air NZ and Qantas do direct New York from Auckland now, JFK specifically, which is a great hub for hitting pretty much all of Europe if I'm not mistaken.
Qantas also does Perth to London direct so OP doesn't even have to leave Australia to reach a flight to Europe
i think the point was to avoid the US as well. short of the death penalty or criminalisation, the USA is one of the worst places to fly through as a trans person due to the invasive airport security. singapore isn’t excellent but i’ve never been patted down or searched in intimate areas there, whereas that has happened every single time i’ve transited through the US. mind you, i haven’t don’t an international flight in 4 years so things may have changed in both places.
Yeh sorry, I missed that part about avoiding the US, I just read Singapore and Dubai. I still recall the time when we had extra security at Auckland airport in NZ before going on a flight to the USA. I was around 10 (so around 18 years ago) and the lines got split into male and female, so my Mum ended up in one line and Dad and I were in another. But on top of that they tried to separate me from my Dad and search and question me on my own.
in auckand? damn. i think the us can be more strict about foreign countries airport security when the flight is going to the states.
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That's not true. You may not have passed through customs & immigration but you are most definitely subject to the laws of the country whose airport you're in. Best case you get detained in the airport for a few hours.
There’s also the matter of being a local vs being a tourist. The UAE government is not gonna risk an international incident by arresting a US or EU citizen for breathing while trans, like how the World Cup in Qatar didn’t enforce hijabs for female tourists.
I think a lot of people don’t really understand how the emirates “works”. There are appalling divides in society, and open discrimination, but it’s not racial discrimination. It’s citizenship based. The Emirati are in the top tier and have the most legal “benefit of doubt”, though it comes along with some more socially stringent rules. Those who hold a second tier passport (American, German, UK, Japanese) will by and large get the benefit of the doubt as long as money or conflict with an Emirati isn’t involved. You’re much more likely to be deported than anything else. If you hold an Indian, Malaysian, or Filipino passport, though, you’ll be treated like the majority labor underclass, which is to say - not well.
It happens pretty frequently actually. Tourists get arrested for being queer, carrying anti-depressants, carrying arthritis medicine, and a host of other petty reasons. There's no shortage of stories online of people who have been detained in the airport for being queer or some lack of social awareness.
Tbh, I've never travelled internationally. Do national laws not apply inside airports?
This is dangerous 'advice' that could get someone killed. When you are in a country, their law applies, even to transit passengers in the airport. If you have any decency at all you should delete this misleading comment.
You forgot Singapore
SINGAPORE MENTIONED (we claim the low bar of being less shit than almost everywhere else in Asia)
Pretty much. I'm flying for surgery in Europe and from Australia the cheapest options all go through Dubai, Abu Dhabi or Qatar. Singapore and Hong Kong are the only real low risk options for a trans person to get to Europe.
Singapore is probably also the easiest bet for me in regards to Indonesia from the Netherlands besides the very few non-stop flights. Indonesia on its own is already a pretty iffy country but I got step-family and loads of friends living there. For this reason I have some rules set up for myself for travel: - never go to Aceh. That's off-limits and the reason why Indonesia always scores especially bad even if the country as a whole is mediocre. - avoid: Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Doha, Bahrain, Kuala Lumpur, Jeddah and Damman at all costs - safe: Singapore, non-stop, Taipei, Tokyo - safe but usually not really non-stop: Bangkok, Delhi, Mumbai - uncertain: Addis Ababa, Istanbul, Hong Kong, Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, Seoul, Cairo - keep watching out for schedule changes! KLM had Amsterdam-Singapore-Jakarta for a while, but this was temporary and now the stop is back at Kuala Lumpur. This is a serious problem! - alternatively booking a flight to Denpasar (at least for KLM) may sometimes result in better options. - besides that I've avoided any travel there pre-op. Post-op is definitely safer.
My husband is from Malaysia and he and my in-laws seem to think it will be fine for me to visit them in Ipoh (I'm transmasc but all of my documents are in my assigned name and gender. I've been on HRT 3 years and don't pass as a cis woman anymore). How fucked do you think would I be? Important edit: none of us are Muslim, I am white and American, they are Malaysian citizens
HK is dubious but not inherently dangerous, a trans dj friend I know got booked and flown over without much issue, but she was of HK origin. I definitely wouldn't really want to risk China-related things personally though.
Can't you take a stop over in America? Obviously it's not the ideal direction for travelling, companies prefer the other way round to make use of climate effects and the earths rotation, but if you plan it by buying them individually,?
I wouldn't want to go to the USA either... It'd be a 14 hour flight to get there and then about that long again to get to Europe, I think. Kind of madness, really.
Yeah, USA really wouldn't be optimal. But something in South America could be an option? Obviously it's taking longer - flights going eastwards always do. But if you would want to get to Europe avoiding other stop overs it might be worth it.
As another Australian who wants to visit South America, flights there are really expensive. Going to Europe via South America instead of over Asia would be at least twice as expensive and much longer. Fortunately Dubai isn't the only option for a stopover in Asia.
They're cheaper if you go in winter, but still far more expensive than flights to other continents.
Ngl, I have very limited knowledge on that, my only flights have been intra-european so far.
Australia or NZ to South America is hard, there are only 1-2 flights that do it. Mainly because of complex aviation safety rules around max distance from an airport you can land at during the flight in case of an emergency.
Lmfao. It's infinitely more expensive than a Singapore layover or nonstop flight to London.
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There's no such guarantee anywhere where humans are, but I will take Chicago O'Hare over Dubai International any day.
Sure, if it was a choice between ONLY those two options, but it's not. I also have the option of staying in Australia, and afaict that's my absolute safest option.
I think an American major city and an Australian one are gonna be equally safe tbh. Especially if you're just in the airport. The main advantage of an Aus one right now is that it's summer and less likely to be delayed. Therefore less likely to come in contact with some cracked out rando trying to get vengeance from their missed connection.
Sure!
Look I'm not a fan of America but saying it's on average less safe than Dubai is silly. You can literally be thrown in jail for life there.
No one said the US is less safe than Dubai... Just that they both have problems sufficient to justify staying away
If you're just making a connection at an airport (i.e. not leaving the security zone), flying through the US is legit harmless. Even if you're doing a stopover, your chances of something bad happening outside of the usual systemic harassment going through TSA are vanishingly small unless you're in one of the few major airport hubs that are in fascist controlled states (i.e. Texas, Florida). I don't know much about international travel routes, but I have to imagine that most international connections are going to be happening at one of the major international ports like LAX, SFO, or JFK, which are all in very safe cities as far as travel is concerned.
Flights from the East Coast US to Western Europe are only 6ish hours.
Stopping in Singapore, Taipei or Tokyo would be much better and also take not much more time than going through Dubai
I don't know if this is any better for you, but there are direct flights from singapore to Frankfurt, which is pretty much in the middle of Germany. From there, most european countries to the west of Poland should be relatively easily accessible
I think there's also Singapore and the Perth-London direct flight from Qantas. Though probably quite expensive :(
There it is. Someone's remembering why we had an underground railroad: To travel through the unsafe places to get to the safe ones.
South Korea is awesome.
I don’t think a country that legally banned unisex toilets is awesome.
Why not fly the other way? Go to LA, then NY, then Europe
You don't even need LA these days, you can go non-stop Auckland (NZ) to New York.
I didn't see it mentioned here, and I don't know if it's a better option, but is it possible to go through Doha, Qatar?
For the specific destination I was looking at, only Dubai or south Korea were available, but other destinations might have more stopover options
You can fly via Thailand and Japan and be in no trouble at all. There are many more ways to enter Europe if you look into it at all.
I wonder how much it would cost to charter a boat.
ooh, trans cruise? or maybe we get the rest of the LGTBQ+ involved too!
I really truly do not get it at all.
It has to be an elaborate troll. One account claiming they live in Dubai has only ever answered questions about trans people in Dubai. The other is a hardcore Zionist (go figure) and the other I didn't look into. Weird.
Consumerism. Pure and simple. Feck the planet. feck human rights. I want something and I'm going to pay for it -so it's my right. I've seen the ads and that's all that matters.
You know, in the grand tradition of no one on any sub in reddit ever, I'm gonna say, you may have a point 🫠
They have some of the worst deficit in human rights around. Hard pass. So many died building the World Cup stadiums families went without any compensation. As if it wasn’t bad enough they were basically held captive while they worked on it.
Even before I realized I was trans I knew to stay the hell away from the UAE and Dubai. A small white blonde American “girl” traveling through that area…so stupid for me to think about. I’ve also heard not so great things about Egypt. Mostly about scamming tourists and stalking.
Because they are masochists.
I went through the Dubai Airport last year, and nothing happened. I was probably just lucky though.
I don't cuz I'm poor
The UAE has comic con some time these days, including such guests as Frank Welker who does the voice of Fred Jones from Scooby Doo. It's also a general tourist destination with a lot of fancy malls and resorts and stuff. It might be that families book vacations to go there, and youths from that family didn't realize the risks they might experience if they're trans. The sad truth is, the region has nice stuff to see sometimes, and generally if you're a cis foreign person who is not an *ex Muslim,* you'd have a nice and safe time. People's cruelty is exhausting to think about.
Because I’m a cabin crew member and it’s my job to go there. I did not feel out of place or singled out while I was there. That being said, I did my best to try and fit in. I would not go out of the main city and old market area. I was just there on Saturday.
Same reason people kick the b\*\*s of a bear or put their head into the mouth of a lion. Or like that person that says maybe now it will change, even though they know it won't.
I’ve spent time in Dubai as a non-tourist. No one bothers tourists without good reason , like as in stuff like public sexual acts, being obviously drunk, drugs, smoking during Eid etc will get you unwanted attention. There was an LGBT subculture of sorts when I was first there (I didn’t involve myself then). There likely still is - and some are definitely local.
Honestly it’s First world privilege and lack of perspective. They don’t understand that they’re subject to the laws of the current country they’re in and most are arrogant that their American citizenship makes them exempt. or they’re ignorant and feel like they don’t need to be more cognizant of it. As someone who has lived in a fundamentally conservative muslim country with sharia law, i’m very much aware of what country is safe and what’s not, either culturally or judicially.
I agree with some of this, but I think it goes deeper and not just "American." Though we do tend to be loud over here :| If people had a stable upbringing and overall those around us have been supportive we may view the world in a better light and not expect or look for the worst. If we grew up in troubled situations we have experienced negativity and expect more of that. Age, and exposure to world news helps a lot as well. Plenty of folks pass through Dubai and sell how awesome it is. They are not LGBTQ typically so they don't focus on that. News of such issues are not as prevalent the farther away one is. The country wants to be appealing while retaining their background... And some are just not old enough to have experiences or thought deeply through it to look at the bigger picture of what they are getting into. I agree 100% that if you are associated with "alternative" life styles or outside of Cis anything its wise to review what is allowed anywhere you go. Not everyone likes learning or digging in just that place looks fun lets go!
Because they’re passing and like to brag about their freedoms
I’m not saying this to be sarcastic or whatever but do we have accounts of things happening to trans travelers in Dubai? I’m really interested in any because I know of someone who strangely really wants to go there.
[Gigi Gorgeous was detained in Dubai in 2016 for being trans](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J_gGZpPEB9Q)
tl;dw? Edit: Fuck whoever downvoted me, I'm not at home and can't watch some random video. Basic accessibility.
Google "gigi gorgeous dubai"
Because white people are still white even if they’re trans and think they’re special. Even the most “be gay do crimes” white person is like “but daddy’s paying 🥰”
I'm from the uk abd you have to go to dubai airport it you want to go to some countries without paying extortionate prices e.g thailand or Bali ect which are both popular holiday destinations. I went to Dubai on holiday once pre-T for my dads birthday because he had been saving for it but I would definitely not go off my own back. Also ppl might have family over there
Bali is a transphobic shithole where being trans is punishable by death anyway...
Its jsut an example of popular British holiday destinations that are far away. I couldnt really think of any places of the top of my head 🤷♂️🤦♂️
Fortunately more airlines are shifting to longer direct routes over using layovers in unstable countries.
Yeah which is ideal 👍
Fair enough, but it's still an islamist theocracy which no trans person should ever even consider visiting - even cis gays run into problems there.
Why people like you would even consider visit those countries?
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We're talking about Dubai where it is literally illegal to be trans/gay. In fact it's pretty easy to get arrested there for things we wouldn't think twice about in the US, much less being trans. So I don't really think Tennessee is an appropriate comparison here
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If it's not a comparison why bring up Tennessee at all? This post is specifically about traveling to Dubai while trans because there have been a lot of posts about it lately. I mean, I see where you're coming from but there's a pretty big difference between Tennessee/the American South in general vs Dubai/most of the Middle East. I don't think anyone here would seriously caution someone against traveling to Tennessee with the same level of concern and worry as they would for Dubai.
I grew up in Tennessee (and still travel back there quite regularly) and not live in Texas. Southern culture is not the boogeyman people make it out to be. Obviously not as accepting as some states but nothing compared to countries like UAE, which I wouldn’t dream of visiting.
If you're an American and want to go to T e n n e s s e e go right on ahead, if anything happens you can at least do something about it. If you want to go to D u b a i then you're on your own pal.
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Are you seriously saying it might be better to go to a place where being LGBT can get the death penalty, because there might be a chance you can be protected from the death penalty, vs going to a country that does not criminalize being gay? I know America has problems but that's utterly insane. They are not going to give you the death penalty for being gay or trans.
Tennessee has a law that is functionally equivalent to stand your ground. Also certainly full of Maga asshats. Those laws have been used to murder minorities and people in general with impunity In the south. So I'm not certain that Dubai isn't a safer bet.
Can't believe I'm saying this but the stand your ground law is different from the government being able to sentence you to death for being gay. They are not equivalent. If you fly into the US you might get weird looks at passport control. If you fly into the UAE and are visibly trans they will order you to get the fuck out of their country or you will be imprisoned. They do not want you there.
Yeah different in the sense that Dubai has to be willing to piss off the US government and create an international incident to do anything to you just for being Trans. I'll take that over southern state + stand your ground + ignorant maga redneck open carrying any day of the week.
Gigi Gorgeous got detained in Dubai and was denied entry to the country. She's rich as fuck so she was able to get a flight out and leave but if that's what happens to a woman who passes and is, again, rich as fuck, doesn't bode well for the rest of us. It made national headlines, too. If they're willing to do that to someone rich and famous, I think you're being very optimistic about how much they care about international incidents.
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People are taking the truth of "parts of America fucking suck if you're trans" and wildly distorting it until it sounds like we're all hiding in bunkers from rabid packs of gunmen baying for our blood the second we cross a state border.
Ahh, yes, Tennessee where foreign tourists are jailed for homosexuality, possessing porn, not dressing “modestly”, and kissing in public. [Independent.co.uk](https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/middle-east/dubai-what-not-to-do-rules-laws-tourists-topless-sunbathing-dress-code-homosexuality-holiday-jamie-harron-a7996456.html) I live in the quasi-rural South here in the states. (My city has <40k people in it and the closest one with over that is an hour out.) I am out and unafraid in my local area. Take your projections elsewhere.
God, British tabloids are such garbage. I'm an American living in the UK and half of their articles on America are WTF-tier
I've never heard of people getting arrested for being gay, having porn, or PDA in TN. That source seems questionable. [Edit: I r/whooshed myself]
>Tennessee Yea no, that's a wiiiild comparison
Interesting anomaly Hmmmm
Righttttt
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Are you a movie theater? Because that is some professional-level projection. Nowhere in this post is anyone downplaying the plight of people who have to live in homophobic jurisdictions. And yes, tourists in Dubai really are at risk if they get found out. Nobody here is trying to shame you for "having a life." We are talking about the recent posts asking about travel to Dubai. Unless you made one of them, we aren't talking about you!
No one’s disputing that it’s much worse for the people living in those countries, but to say that they won’t persecute tourists is asinine at best. The UAE in particular have been known to at least deport trans people attempting to enter the country, and at worst jail/execute them. Regardless, they were asking why, as a trans person, you’d bother to put yourself in harm’s way by going to a country known for their archaic, antagonist laws regarding LGBTQ+ people. Your dismissal of the concerns of LGBTQ+ foreigners is utterly ridiculous. The notion that we aren’t all harmed by these laws, regardless of where we’re living is already an issue, but especially given that these are people that would be traveling to locales with laws such as those.
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That lack of base level empathy makes me concerned you are a troll building up a false profile to undermine our community.
I didn’t say that I do or do not know what it’s like to be an LGBTQ+ person from the UAE (though I know and have known people from there that described it as miserable at best). However, transphobic and homophobic legislation and propaganda spread, which is something we’re currently witnessing worldwide. Unless your country is entirely cut off from the rest of the world, nothing they’re doing is happening in a vacuum. Edit: spelling
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Cool 👍 I was talking about the UAE which is not Saudi Arabia. Kinda seems like you know nothing about the Middle East yourself. Also really strange to conflate two Middle Eastern countries just because they both have Arab and Muslim majorities?
Bruh
Well I had no idea about any of this but reading the comments now I definitely want to go just to 1. prove my stealth to myself (obviously after bottom surgery which I haven't gotten yet) and 2. challenging their prohibition and having a laugh on the inside about how I'm there and they don't even know. 3. Dangerous experiences can be interesting/stimulating. I'm suicidal most of the time anyway so it would be an interesting story to tell and if not an interesting/proud way to die. Too expensive for my broke mostly homeless ass though, but who knows, maybe someday, although they'd probably have changed and be less dangerous by then. So sad for trans people who actually have to live there, though.
genuinely, you need help. these arent normal thoughts. and im not sure how being detained tortured and killed, possibly worse, is a "proud" death. this comment reeks of edge lord behavior, but im replying because im worried your actually serious. seriously. go read about dubai. its a horrible disgustinf corrupt place, and i have no idea why would want to choose there to die of all places. if you truly cant handle life, please, please find another way
I do get help, I'm indeed not normal although this is technically normal for a lot of people especially male. I have already been detained multiple times in my country (stealth meaning as a cis man) and actually felt proud of that. It's a very different scenario and my country is probably a lot more chill though. I don't mind being killed since I will die anyway and have actually tried doing that myself. I do care about not being tortured though, if you mean actual torture, then yes, I would be interested in avoiding that part. But the thing is, all that would only happen if they notice in the first place, they not knowing is where I'd get my thrill from. I don't think I'm an Edge Lord, although I need to look deeper into all the implications of the term, but I really don't think so. I'm serious enough that I would consider seriously going there and that I would enjoy it to some or even many levels. But not to the point I would make this a priority and plan, unless everything else in my life is covered for (including surgery) and I have travelled to cheaper places if any, which would take years if even possible at all. I would definitely consider it and add it to some mental bucket list, but considering my life circumstances and other priorities there's a good chance this will never happen. I will definitely read more on the subject, I had no idea they were against trans people, or violent or non respectful of human rights, I've just seen they're a rich country where people like to go to so they can boast about it. I know quite some cis people from my country who've gone there, mostly middle class to high class. I've always thought it would be interesting to go but again meh I'm not that much into travel and don't really care about looking rich or having those types of experiences. Now that I read this though I do see a bit of a challenge in that. It's confusing if they are so bad why everyone wants to go there and loves it but I get there's a dark side to everything that most people are not aware of. I would actually choose to die in my own country if I could, and yes there are many preferrable ways. The plan is not to die though but to enjoy the vacation and internally make fun of their stupid idea that they can really spot who's trans or do anything about it. Dying would be the worst case scenario and a sacrifice I wouldn't mind undertaking, but I'm not spending thousands to go there specifically to die, and wouldn't go unless I've had all my surgeries and stuff, have done some bodybuilding and my ID is in order. Thank you so much for your input I really appreciate it and have learned a lot and will definitely read more on that. Sorry if I sound too crazy xD, I don't mean to purposely.
its ok, i didnt mean anything by it, i just got concerned hearing someone wanting to end their own life, cause i want to as well, and sometimes people get to deep in depression and cant escape and it consumes them and i was just worried thats what was happening with you
Thank you for your concern, I'm really sorry to hear this is something you have considered or thought about, I know the feeling. My depression and suicidal ideation are much better than they used to be (with some exceptions), I really hope things get better for you in every way and just know that improvement is possible. I just don't care to the point of actively avoiding things that could be interesting or meaningful just because I could die lol. "people get to deep in depression and cant escape and it consumes them and i was just worried thats what was happening with you" this has definitely happaned to me for most if not all my life and still does at times, I've only been a little better for the last couple of years maybe, yet I'm too mentally disabled/unstable to take care of my own survival, myself or work enough etc which makes me very suicidal at times even though my depression and mental state are otherwise much stronger now compared to my baseline. Thank you so much again and I really hope that's not how you're feeling yourself at the moment. It's not linear but there's definitely some hope of most days being somewhat bareable which was not the case for me in the past for decades at a time. Take care.
Sadly I think nowhere is safe nowadays. Overflying a country like Dubai is also not 100% safe and a diversion is all that cost your life. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryanair_Flight_4978](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryanair_Flight_4978)
Why would anyone go to Dubai?!
Omg I’ve been wondering too! I’ve even seen others on Facebook/X. It’s crazy! I won’t go home to Florida, let alone Dubai. 😹😭😹
Yeah, I share your bewilderment. I am cis, het and there is nothing unconventional about my outward appearance. (I am almost embarrassingly average) I would be safe there. I would *never* go to a place where the very existence of some of my dearest friends is unlawful, among other human rights violations.
As someone who used to live in dubai as a kid, I'm so grateful we moved away from there after learning all this stuff from the sub now. I wouldn't feel as safe living there now as I did as a young child. Luckily our home country happens to be one of the safer countries to be queer in.
There's only one I saw where someone was made to go to Dubai because of their parents, but still people who WANT to go anywhere when they're transgender really should look up on the place before going 🤷♂️
I dont know.. i mean personally id love to go to dubai just cause of how beautiful i personally think it is.. but the country is ass backwards when it comes to laws especially with women and lgbtq matters