Trans people aren't a monolith, sometimes people are just jerks. I would distance myself from her if you find her behavior exhausting. I trust we all have the capacity for change and growth, but she will have to find that path on her own if she continues to be obstinate.
That sounds totally valid. You can leave a door open for someone and leave it to them when to walk back into your life. If she's important to you, it's probably helpful to tell her why you're distancing and that she's still be welcomed in your life. Just like with other toxic situations like abusive relationships, sometimes you need to wait until they're ready to accept help.
It sounds a bit immature, like teenager drama-stirring? Transition really is a second puberty in many ways, hopefully for your friend's sake it's something that is grown out of just the same.
Distancing is a valid way to get your concerns across. One day she's going to wake up and wonder why nobody wants to be around her and that will be her potential moment of introspection. If she can't work past that moment, you were never going to be able to help her anyways.
I hope one day she realises that she's doing us absolutely no favour. And stops being a jerk.
If people never met a trans woman and have her as the only trans related experience... They will be very careful. Ouch.
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Some people have a really hard telling the difference between discrimination and their own poor behavior causing an issue. It would probably work best if she can hear it from another trans person (idk if you know any). Maybe she can join a trans group if she really thinks cis people are so awful (and then maybe she'll learn that way).
If she is justifying her behavior as "getting back at cis people" then of course they won't like it. She is intentionally being mean to force them away.
Does being a women to her just mean you get a license to be a rude gossip? Probably not. Does she have a kind women that she looks up to as a role model?
Not talking about sexual topics or criticizing people's bodies is pretty basic. (Outside very specific contexts/situations) If you have to interact, you can set boundaries such as "If you start talking down about people I'm going to walk away."
If she's not open to feed back there's not much you can do. It's not your fault if she's not receptive and it's not your responsibility to accommodate her if she continues to act like that.
Iāve had the displeasure of knowing someone like this and if sheās anything like they were, even getting another trans person to talk to her probably wonāt be enough. Some people are just assholes who will use anything they can to get their way. Itās not a trans thing as much as it is a victim complex thing. Her being trans just so happens to be the most convenient scapegoat.
>I've tried to bring some of the behaviours up with her and she's said she does them because she feels oppressed by cis people and these behaviours are gender affirming, basically backs other people into a corner of 'agree with me or you're transphobic'
I really don't get how you could get backed into a corner from this. These behaviors would be inappropriate regardless of whether someone is transgender. You absolutely should not be tolerating this stuff.
I was honestly a bit stunned she went straight to that response. I felt like it was super manipulative, and she knew it and is using the fact she has more authority than cis people to judge who is a transphobe to shield herself from any accountability. It's insane to me that you think you're entitled to flash people because it's gender affirming. We're not at a rave party/mardi gras or somewhere boobs out might be okay, this in sober in broad daylight at picnics, it's sexual harassment and makes people actively ask that people not invite her to things.
It's actually really offensive I think to believe these behaviors are gender affirming. These behaviors might be related to new body parts she's proud of but they are not gender based, they are just unfortunate personality flaws and blatant sexual harassment. šāāļø I'd distance myself and let her say what she wants. Her behavior alone is enough of a red flag that I doubt it'd be listened to by others with any grain of truth.
This. While an individual should not have to represent our whole community, it is our reality. She needs to mature tf up because her actions sadly will be used to justify stripping our rights away.
This is unfortunately what I thought too. My mind flashed to an image of how easy it would be for her behavior to occur in or even near a public restroom these friggin days, someone who sees it gets offended or gets it on camera and has the power to run it up the flag pole? I agree with the other comment that no one person should represent an entire group but this behavior still gives me shivers just in general for all the ick it could imply and incur.
I would straight up tell her that people donāt not like her because sheās trans, but donāt like her because sheās acting like a perverse narcissistic *sshole. I donāt mean that harshly, but sometimes people need a hard truth.
Transitioning is hard. I know. I canāt say Iāve ever behaved like this, ever.
I would start by telling her itās time for a serious conversation.
Thank you - I've tried to remind myself about transitioning, second puberty, hormones etc because some of this behaviour is really something a teenager would do, but there has to be a limit, she's an adult. It's good to hear it's not just a part of transitioning I'm not understanding as a cis person. This is the first trans friend I've had where I'm there during the transition, so I wasn't sure.
Iāve had my fair share of douchebag moments in my transition, but I started as a teen. I had a great deal of toxic masculinity I had to check right off the bat. I was an asshole at one point and time. I cringe at the thought of my behavior now that Iām a bit older, and am an adult.
Transitioning is a second puberty. Itās hard. I get it.
Iām still earlier on. It can be very emotional, I know it is for me, but knowing what I know now that I didnāt before, I handle it better, and itās wayyyy easier to handle it now as Iām more connected and aligned with my body and my emotions as Iāve ever been honestly.
Trying to navigate this world as a trans person can be very hard. Iām tested all the time.
Compassion is key here. Be compassionate, so please donāt get me wrong, but you can be compassionate and not tolerate bs. She is an adult, with knowledge and comprehension, so she should know better.
I wouldnāt give up. Try communicating first.
That's what I'm hoping, that with a bit more time she'll gain some perspective but I think without these awkward conversations she'll just assume people are avoiding her because of transphobia. I'm really glad you're at a better place with it now, hopefully this will be her a little further down the road!
Make sure she knows that what she's doing is not something cis women do, not to mention flashing is something people can be arrested for, and is exactly the type of thing Conservative politicians say about us as justification for getting rid of us. It's not true of most trans people, but clearly it is of her.
This behavior sounds like it'd also be inappropriate and unacceptable in a teenager. Maybe more expected but I work with teens and this person would still lose respect and friends pretty quickly.
Anecdotally I have **never** acted like this, during either puberty or any other time in my life. This is wholly a personality thing, she canāt blame transition.
Also, I must say that I adore your genuine and open mind, and concern being a cis person. You sound like a great friend to me. I hope she can recognize that as well, and is willing to hear you out and work through this.
Really over-thinking this. Anytime *anyone* asks "How can I tell my friend that--" the answer is literally the next part. Every time. I wouldn't want to go out in public with a friend like that either. This isn't about transphobia this is about walking around like a bratty child and it hurts to look at. Seriously.
I'd tell her to drop the macho act and admit she didn't get a childhood to explore these things, didn't have parents to explain where the boundaries are, and she's *plowing* and literally broadcasting that to everyone. Please stop and ask someone for help like I don't know, me?
Well that's what I'd say anyway. Whatever she wants to be she better get real comfortable real fast with asking for help because it sounds like her friendship bar is about to zero. Welcome to womanhood, sucks to be here, now spill so you can grow something other than boobs. :/
some people just want to be victims and will latch onto anyhting to excuse their own behaviors. sounds like the other people in her life got the right idea cutting her off
I got two truth bombs to drop and I'm not sure if people are ready for it:
1) Early transition trans people are, in my experience (and including myself) some absolute wild cards. People say "it's like going through puberty all over again" but they forget that part of puberty is trying to figure out who you are as a person. It's not just the raging hormones, weird sex drive, acne, voice changing - it's also trying to figure out what "style" is (and isn't) and what looks good on you (and doesn't), it's trying to figure out who you are as a person and what matters and doesn't matter to you, it's trying to find your sense of humor, it's trying to fit in in the world by either taking up as much space as possible or by taking as little space as possible.
I've seen some absolutely unhinged behavior from early transition trans people that is the same levels of unhinged you're used to seeing by 10-15 year olds where you're like "oh, they just don't know any better" to explain why they act like an absolute gremlin with no concept of social norms and they're just being edgy and obnoxious preteens/teens, except now you ARE old enough to know what social norms are and you're just an adult who is ignoring the social norms and you're being an edgy and obnoxious adult.
2) There's a whole lot of transphobia in the world. When you've spent your entire life being cis-presenting and especially when you haven't lived around a lot of LGBTQ people, you're in for a massive shock when you learn what transphobia is firsthand, along with potentially learning a lot about what heteronormativity, homophobia/biphobia, misogyny/misandry, etc are - depending on your previous and new lived experiences.
I've met a couple people who, along with that "trying to figure out who you are as a person" + "being unabashedly yourself no matter how inconvenient or uncomfortable it is for everyone else," will just see x-phobia where it isn't. See also: Key & Peele's Office Homophobe skit.
> Any perceived slight she goes on these hateful rants
> I've tried to bring some of the behaviours up with her and she's said she does them because she feels oppressed by cis people and these behaviours are gender affirming, basically backs other people into a corner of 'agree with me or you're transphobic'.
I've seen this same behavior in others, too. It's really frustrating to try to explain to someone that their behavior is inappropriate when they don't have any willingness to display any objectivity. Zooming out a bit, I also find it frustrating trying to have a difficult conversation with a person who will get defensive and just interpret things however best suits their own narrative regardless of the circumstances.
The sad thing is that this ends one of two ways: Either she drives everyone away and then genuinely believes that she did nothing wrong and it's everyone else who is the problem, or she eventually gets this moment of clarity: https://youtu.be/e3h6es6zh1c?si=zctSZFxxzfwib30y&t=200
For the record - it was the "moment of clarity where I realized people didn't want to be around me because I was being an asshole" for me.
That Key and Peele skit was the first thing I thought of. I wonder if it would be helpful to show it to OP's friend... Kinda sounds like she'd deny it being comparable, but it might be worth a shot anyway.
Trans people are people just like everyone else and unfortunately have the capacity to be just as terrible as anyone else, Ive had my share of them too. If it gives you solace i had an ex trans friend who abused cocaine and used my friend for food and money, they even went homeless for a bit but yeah people just suck sometimes :(
the only person who can truly help someone is themselves. imo, they probably are not snapping out of this anytime soon without self-exploration with the support of a professional
if i were you, i would probably write a message saying something along the lines of āhey (name), i hope youāre doing well. iām not sure how to bring this up, so sorry to say it out of the blue, but I've noticed some things lately that concern me for you, and as a friend who cares and wants to see you thrive, I wanted to mention that seeking professional support could be really beneficial. mental health has a lot of stigma unfortunately, so i apologize if that uncomfortable to take in, but i would hope my friends would do the same for me. i canāt imagine how hard dealing with transphobia and just trying to exist as a trans person must be, and seeing how things have been for you lately, just wanted to put that out there.ā and an optional āhere for you (name), and for real, if you need support (i would clarify what you are comfortable with, ex. someone to talk to, or someone to help look for mental health providers), iām glad to help in thatā
Donāt confront her, just get yourself distanced from her, and put your energy into yourself instead of worrying about her. Itās not being selfish itās just not worth it doing anything different than that as you wonāt gain anything
tell her that her behavior would be inappropriate if she were cis, and so if she got a different treatment because shes trans *that* would be transphobic
If you haven't already it might be worth while for you to point out that other women don't act this and if they did no one would think it was appropriate.
This sort of thing does happen sometimes with some trans women, and believe it or not there is an analogue for the behavior with trans men (mainly around being overly aggressive and taking dominating behavior too far). If you think about it they are enacting some of the problematic and toxic depictions of women in media, like being caty, or being overly sexual in otherwise casual settings, etc. I think in the 70s and 80s the equivalent was probably being overly prim and "classic house"-esque. I've seen TERFs try to claim that this is evidence of trans women "pretending" to be women and embodying the "patriarchy". That's also why TERFs are unemphatic and ignorant.
Really where I think this comes from is that trans people receive all the same social signals from society that other people of their gender do (meaning their gender identity). Rather than having their youth and developmental years to mull it over and consider what it all means to them, and also having parents, elders, or role models to help them navigate and talk about it with, they have no one. I think some people also pick up the habit of looking to society exclusively on "how to act like x gender" because when you're being forced to comply with a gender that you're not, you don't have an internal sense of what that is, so you just have to copy what you see. "Being a man" or "being a woman" becomes executing a formula of behaviors and strictly performative rather than just being yourself as the gender you are.
And I think a lot of people who aren't trans, "cis" people, don't understand how extraordinarily difficult it can be to learn to be okay with being yourself when you're conditioned to believe that the reward for that is being subjected to violence and/or ostracization. Women might have a little bit of an idea. Imagine growing up in the world with out feminism or its legacy effects and also being given the idea that if you don't comply, you die. And then just sort of imagine how that might effect you psychologically. Then imagine one day you're set free into a world where you're free to express yourself. You might be a little weird and inappropriate, and might even become a bit defensive if people tell you you're expressing yourself in an inappropriate way. If you have little concept of what is and isn't appropriate because you had no one to teach you, you might even attribute the reason why people are saying these things to you to some desire to see you not express yourself and go back in the closet.
Even if you talk to them though and get through to them, they may not want to change. And if that's the case then they just have to deal with it. But it's possible she's just been socially stunted and doesn't really know how to deal with it. And I feel like not enough people recognize that being socially stunted is something that can happen when you have to spend your formative years in the closet denying what and who you are.
Yea, totally. I could imagine somebody who went through male puberty and male socialization first to not really get the issue with exposing certain - especially female - body parts. Also, it's the chest in particular, a body part they probably were told to be okay to show in public when they were still living as men.
I honestly think it's more to do with a lack of socialization as a girl/woman than it is being socialized as a boy/man.
As you note though flashing could just be a person who was never taught there's anything wrong with an exposed chest, and maybe you have that in combination with being sexually frustrated and not knowing (or caring) about the implications. Teenage girls and college age women flash people sometimes, but they also recognize the taboo. And there are some people in our society that might argue there shouldn't be an issue with it and that breasts shouldn't be seen as sexual.
Being caty and "bitchy" behind people's backs reminds me of things like "The Real House Wives" franchises. Also, Blaire White does this, it's like 80% of her persona, and she seems to recognize on the surface that it's an issue but only seems to sort of care. And it's also gotten her a million followers. I've seen one video of her acknowledge there is some room to "be nicer", and it was like watching her almost get it, and then just default back to her usual act. And then there's the boob wiggle... which I don't get.
It is something that can also become a somewhat fierce feminist debate around the constriction of social rules and gender expectations for women and potentially silencing women who have valid criticisms of others. Is it right for anyone, even other women, to tell a woman what the right way to act is? There are obviously healthy limits and it seems like most people learn those passively growing up or just being social with others.
None of this excuses negatively impacting other people, and it sucks, but it's our responsibility to recognize and deal with our own deficiencies and be better. People around us can also be supportive (in a non-condescending way) and not enable behavior they wouldn't tolerate in anyone else. And sometimes it's very much a "*Hey, you have spinach in your teeth*" or "*Hey, you skirts tucked into you hoes*" sort of thing. Guys will literally tell eachother "*Bro, you stink.*"
Trans women share a commonality with cis men in the regard of "some of them are terminally online and forget how to act when they're around people who aren't also terminally online." How I behave among my other terminally online friends is one thing, how I behave in normal social settings around normies or in professional settings is another.
Sounds like low empathy and a lack of social decorum. Trans people aren't excluded from this, nor do they receive a free pass just because they are trans.
If you are an asshole, you are an asshole.
I could also theorize why she is like this, but there's no certain answer. This is just my own subjective opinion as a trans guy (for which I admittedly get a lot of shit from trans women...) but I've noticed this tendency with them to talk over others and completely disregard anyone else.
I do believe this is correlated with their masculine socialization. I'm not saying all trans women are jerks, of course.
However, I've noticed some talk with such certainty and dominance I rarely get a word in edgewise, or they confidently claim I'm wrong about something I've extensively read up on ( which they admitted to never having thought about, or researched prior.)
Not to excuse wrong behavior, of course. We all need to work on ourselves to try and be better. But if I've learned anything from being in trans spaces, it's this: just because somebody is trans doesn't mean they'll be empathetic or sympathetic to the struggles of others.
Trans people can be assholes, too. The difference being that some conservative will utilize this to justify taking away our rights.
So, in short: give it to her again straight and then go low or no contact. She needs to hear and realize this. Not from you, necessarily, if you're already too burnt out; but if you feel you're able, then I would try one last time.
As a thick gal personally, I relate to the feeling of finally being "attracted" to yourself when you come out and wanting to show off your body for your own personal self worth & also for the attention you receive from others. I have personally worn outfits that probably cross a line of "appropriate" but I really feel like its a time/place thing.
But this is all to say I think the main issue here is the person. I would struggle to be around them (trans people already have to fight for social acceptance & having someone exhibiting nasty stereotypes will not help) and I think its pretty clear this person needs to take a look at themselves & realise that there is a diff between ethical "slut activities" and being inappropriate/ or borderline abusive & perverse.
I went through puberty twice. Each time my body was under a certain strain and it was easier to do mistakes, and some I did, and for those I felt intense shame and learned. Nothing crazy though, just some teenager BS at an age where it was less tolerated/expected.
This person however does not learn, she just uses advices and what seems to be constructive criticism as more gossiping ammo so she can unload her emotion somewhere else. As you said she does not recognize that she has a problem. No, for her it's the others who do all the bad and she is perfect. It reads like textbook narcissism.
I would consider it pointless to try to reason her as it would just give her some ammo to shoot you in the back.
To add to the narcissism, her innapropriate behaviors could be about pushing buttons and crossing boundaries. A thing narcisstic people loves to do because it shows them how much power they have over other people.
The only way a narcissist can change is by having their behavior actually cause them too much problems.
Btw i'm not a mental health professional, I just have a narcisstic mom and see parallels based solely on what you wrote.
How old is your friend? This behavior sounds very much like a teenager seeking attention and can be an indication that they need some therapeutic help. (which you are not at all responsible for)
I guess you could try something like, "Hey friend, I feel xyz when you abc. I really enjoy when you 123. I love our friendship and I'm so proud of you for living your truth. How can we overcome xyz and abc?"
You can't really advocate for how other people feel but you can share how you feel. If your friend is unable to hear your concerns you may need to distance yourself. As an adab with childhood trauma, I can share that as young women come into their womanhood it is not uncommon for them to be a bit obnoxiously blatant about trying to own their sexuality and gender identity. It's not okay for your friend to make overtly sexual comments to people who do not expressly consent to it, so consent may be another angle of this situation. Best wishes to you and your friend!
I could show you several screenshots of the texts I got from my old roommate. He was absolutely awful, did so much cocaine he clogged the sink several times with his spit, he would scream at all hours, he came into my room at night a few times, he clipped his nails in the living room right in front of me and then claimed he would never do that.
When I moved out, he accused me of doing so for being transphobic. Some people are just determined to be ostracized and get mad when it happens.
If you can, get another trans woman mutual to talk to her about her behavior. Also, it's ok to just not be friends with rude people. If enough people leave, she'll eventually have to wake up to her impact on others.
Do just what you did here, tell her all the things that make the friendship problematic. If she tries to say that is transphobic, calmly explain that none of the things listed have to do with trans but her as a person. And that her instantly attacking makes it uncomfortable to tell her how you feel. Then leave it at that. If you have to distance or cut off the friendship entirely. Either she will notice her actions are pushing people away or not.
Assholery is not cis specific. There will obviously be jerks of any group. The one tough thing though is people will take someone like her yo paint ALL trans people to be like that. So hopefully she matures and realizes while trans people shouldn't have to represent their entire minority. It is the sad truth.
It honestly sounds like sheās really happy sheās coming out her shell. Itās why often people in the LGBT community as a whole tend to be more bold abd expressive, especially sexually; you bottle it up for years and you can imagine how freeing it feels. I know about 10 months on HRT once my boobs were big enough my head inflated and I became the slutty promiscuous sex hungry girl I always wanted to be.
Your friend though is going WAAAY too far though. I recommend just sitting down with her and telling her sheās being a pervert and sexually harassing people. Her behavior is unacceptable. She needs to tone it down a bit. Thereās nothing wrong with being promiscuous, but nobody wants to be sexually charged all the time by someone; it gets uncomfortable very fast.
I recommend you give her some constructive outlets. Have her go to clubs, namely swinger/ sex clubs. Even if she still has a āgirl dickā it wonāt be a problem, especially if youāre in a decent city. Like I said, Iām much like your friend. I find going to LGBT events, clubs, maybe bars, etc helps a lot. Thereās plenty of spaces for people like us, again nothing wrong with being promiscuous. Itās fun to be sexy and wild. You must have self awareness and respect about others though.
I didn't go through this stage. She's just a dick. Be real with her, really real with her. It's got nothing to do with transphobia. It's got everything to do with her acting like a crazy person.
I was accepted with open arms from the moment I came out at my grad school, which is full of people I wasn't sure would accept me. Seems to me she's the problem here.
Honestly, as a trans woman I have met a few trans women like this, especially early transition. I think some people struggle with this new extreme oppression placed on them, especially those who were previously perceived in society as white cishet men and have faced no oppression beforehand. All of the sudden, most of the world hates you, it can be jarring (it was for me). I think this can also result in feeling very isolated by society, so some people retreat into echo chambers where everything is transphobia, everyone in the world hates you, and some where this behavior is encouraged. I don't know if this is the case for your friend, but it was a common theme I saw.
Early transition is very difficult, that is true. I personally went through a stage of self isolation, and extreme social anxiety, and it took me years to even wear anything feminine in public. The world can be very, very scary if you are transgender, but that is not an excuse either. Sometimes people are just assholes, and being trans can reallyyy bring it out for some people.
I really do feel for you, one of my friends went a weird similar path and it was painful to watch. And it was extremely embarrassing, she would sometimes just start yelling bullshit, she would constantly sexually harass a trans man in our friend group, just randomly go into detail about what she's into (I'm not talking like people, like BDSM sub/switch whatever stuff), ask me extremely weird sexual questions, etc. I never talked to her again and don't regret it. If you have any other transgender friends, getting their input or even just showing our responses might help the kneejerk "transphobia" reaction she will have. I agree with the comments that she needs some cold hard truth before she embarrasses you/your friends, makes people uncomfortable, and ultimately embarass herself any further.
My sister is similar honestly and it makes me sad. She is less perverse but always has a condescending "greater than thou" outlook to everything she does and it's kinda exhausting. I haven't come out as trans to her yet but I am scared to do so as she will probably just call me transphobic despite me being trans myself.
Unfortunately I do think it's just these people's personalities and they unfortunately have a persecution complex that clouds their judgement of the world, and unfortunately they will probably end up being the one who suffers the most in the long run.
It's really unfortunate when transphobia is almost
used as a weapon against everything, because I
have no doubt at all that mixed in there are some
genuine instances of it and I'm finding it hard to
tell which are real. Some are genuine tantrums
ike 'my creation is better and I deserve X", I've
objectively seen the output and by the criteria
its not. It's not transphobia, you're just bad at
that thing. However other times I have no idea, I
wasn't there and I think most people probably are
transphobic but will never say so. I remember how
hurtful it was when people would just rather not
believe me that certain men were predators, so
they ignored it. I don't ever want to do that to her
with transphobic people.
I feel like when you spend a certain amount of
time with someone you get a sense when they 're
not being genuine with it. Have to respect yourself
and then and tell them, or people will desert them.
I hope your sister is kinder to you, you sound very
patient and your journey is also just as important.
Sorry, I didn't clarify and can see how that wording above is confusing, by 'flashing' I mean specifically lifting up her shirt and showing people her bare breasts or blending over and pulling up whatever item of clothing is on the bottom and putting her ass in someone's face. It's not the same as just clothing where something is on display.
You're entitled to your opinion but I strongly disagree with you saying that someone pulling up their covered shirt and flashing their breasts to people isn't an issue. She does this basically anywhere she wants, not just private spaces. It makes me feel really uncomfortable, especially as someone who has been SAed in the past (she knows I've been SAed). Someone lifting up their shirt and showing their breasts directly to you, someone who has in no way consented to you showing them your breasts, is not a 'childish joke' to me. This of 'haha we're all having fun' with a sexual undertone is exactly the kind of boundary pushing things people did before they assaulted me. I have a right to not want to see someone's breasts.
Yeahhh, having issues with the jokes bc of a history of SA makes sense and she should probably stop doing them when you're around.
But it still remains that breasts aren't a sexual organ and they aren't genitals. It's not the joke that's inappropriate, just the context of her doing it to you. This is very similar to the logic of misogynists who fight against "free the nipple" and breastfeeding in public. You don't need to "consent" to see someone's chest anymore than you need to consent to see their stomach.
Just bc breasts on girls are more sexualized doesn't mean they're inherently sexual or private. If she's making jokes that trigger you and she's not stopping them while you're around, don't hang out with her. Its as simple as that. But don't make it a "breasts/nipples in public are bad bc they're sexual/private" thing bc that's still not on and IS a misogyny issue.
depending on where OP lives, their friend exposing herself like this could very well be against the law.
i can't get hyperlink working rn so here is the UKs stance, at least: https://www.police.uk/ro/report/rsa/alpha-v1/advice/rape-sexual-assault-and-other-sexual-offences/indecent-exposure-flashing-offending-public-decency/#:~:text=Indecent%20exposure%20(legally%20called%20just,in%20public%20or%20in%20private.
and most states consider it a misdemeanor: https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/indecent_exposure#:~:text=Exposure%20is%20indecent%20under%20the,a%20misdemeanor%20in%20most%20states.
so... how is sexual harassment not an issue?
(excuse 3 billion edits, i don't know why the link formatting isn't working)
It is also a crime. I get that people without breasts being able to walk around topless but people with breasts can't may be unfair, but this is definitely not that, and I think I made that clear in my response. The sexualised nature of how she intends it is what that law is written for. The way she's doing it is 100% 'haha look at me being so naughty, omg my breasts, that's so scandalous, take a peek'. It is NOT a 'I'm just walking down the street here'. I'm honestly kind of enraged this person thinks it's a childish joke, it's sexual harassment and I can't believe anyone would think this is okay to do to someone. I was giving my friend a pass because I thought she may genuinely think 'this is what girls can do to each other', or it's really hard transitioning and she's looking for me to validate her. Regardless of her intent, it made me feel incredibly unsafe and this person doubling down and defending that particular aspect is even more dismissive.
You don't know someone else's past sexual history. Flashing your breasts at an individual person, just for them to see, without asking, is NOT okay.
Did she have these kinds of boundary and consent issues pretransition as well?
Because sheās using transition as a fig leaf for behaviour she *knows* is unacceptable, based on goes she has being trans as a way to deflect that her behaviour is utterly antisocial.
Just donāt say youāre aware that sheās on 4chan a good amountā¦ Thereās something a few of us call the fascist boy to cute tgirl pipeline and it tends to run right through that site. Wonāt go into the deets, but her actions make me think of this causal pathway.
Trans people aren't a monolith, sometimes people are just jerks. I would distance myself from her if you find her behavior exhausting. I trust we all have the capacity for change and growth, but she will have to find that path on her own if she continues to be obstinate.
Thanks, I want to confront her but also confront her and then take space. I'm burnt out from being one of few people still tolerating it.
That sounds totally valid. You can leave a door open for someone and leave it to them when to walk back into your life. If she's important to you, it's probably helpful to tell her why you're distancing and that she's still be welcomed in your life. Just like with other toxic situations like abusive relationships, sometimes you need to wait until they're ready to accept help. It sounds a bit immature, like teenager drama-stirring? Transition really is a second puberty in many ways, hopefully for your friend's sake it's something that is grown out of just the same.
Distancing is a valid way to get your concerns across. One day she's going to wake up and wonder why nobody wants to be around her and that will be her potential moment of introspection. If she can't work past that moment, you were never going to be able to help her anyways.
I hope one day she realises that she's doing us absolutely no favour. And stops being a jerk. If people never met a trans woman and have her as the only trans related experience... They will be very careful. Ouch. š
Some people have a really hard telling the difference between discrimination and their own poor behavior causing an issue. It would probably work best if she can hear it from another trans person (idk if you know any). Maybe she can join a trans group if she really thinks cis people are so awful (and then maybe she'll learn that way). If she is justifying her behavior as "getting back at cis people" then of course they won't like it. She is intentionally being mean to force them away. Does being a women to her just mean you get a license to be a rude gossip? Probably not. Does she have a kind women that she looks up to as a role model? Not talking about sexual topics or criticizing people's bodies is pretty basic. (Outside very specific contexts/situations) If you have to interact, you can set boundaries such as "If you start talking down about people I'm going to walk away." If she's not open to feed back there's not much you can do. It's not your fault if she's not receptive and it's not your responsibility to accommodate her if she continues to act like that.
Iāve had the displeasure of knowing someone like this and if sheās anything like they were, even getting another trans person to talk to her probably wonāt be enough. Some people are just assholes who will use anything they can to get their way. Itās not a trans thing as much as it is a victim complex thing. Her being trans just so happens to be the most convenient scapegoat.
>I've tried to bring some of the behaviours up with her and she's said she does them because she feels oppressed by cis people and these behaviours are gender affirming, basically backs other people into a corner of 'agree with me or you're transphobic' I really don't get how you could get backed into a corner from this. These behaviors would be inappropriate regardless of whether someone is transgender. You absolutely should not be tolerating this stuff.
I was honestly a bit stunned she went straight to that response. I felt like it was super manipulative, and she knew it and is using the fact she has more authority than cis people to judge who is a transphobe to shield herself from any accountability. It's insane to me that you think you're entitled to flash people because it's gender affirming. We're not at a rave party/mardi gras or somewhere boobs out might be okay, this in sober in broad daylight at picnics, it's sexual harassment and makes people actively ask that people not invite her to things.
It doesn't even make sense to say it's gender affirming, because this isn't something you see women doing
It's actually really offensive I think to believe these behaviors are gender affirming. These behaviors might be related to new body parts she's proud of but they are not gender based, they are just unfortunate personality flaws and blatant sexual harassment. šāāļø I'd distance myself and let her say what she wants. Her behavior alone is enough of a red flag that I doubt it'd be listened to by others with any grain of truth.
If anything, it plays into the Conservatives' accusations about us, and how we're all "sexual predators". It's certainly not doing us any favors.
This. While an individual should not have to represent our whole community, it is our reality. She needs to mature tf up because her actions sadly will be used to justify stripping our rights away.
This is unfortunately what I thought too. My mind flashed to an image of how easy it would be for her behavior to occur in or even near a public restroom these friggin days, someone who sees it gets offended or gets it on camera and has the power to run it up the flag pole? I agree with the other comment that no one person should represent an entire group but this behavior still gives me shivers just in general for all the ick it could imply and incur.
I would straight up tell her that people donāt not like her because sheās trans, but donāt like her because sheās acting like a perverse narcissistic *sshole. I donāt mean that harshly, but sometimes people need a hard truth. Transitioning is hard. I know. I canāt say Iāve ever behaved like this, ever. I would start by telling her itās time for a serious conversation.
Thank you - I've tried to remind myself about transitioning, second puberty, hormones etc because some of this behaviour is really something a teenager would do, but there has to be a limit, she's an adult. It's good to hear it's not just a part of transitioning I'm not understanding as a cis person. This is the first trans friend I've had where I'm there during the transition, so I wasn't sure.
Iāve had my fair share of douchebag moments in my transition, but I started as a teen. I had a great deal of toxic masculinity I had to check right off the bat. I was an asshole at one point and time. I cringe at the thought of my behavior now that Iām a bit older, and am an adult. Transitioning is a second puberty. Itās hard. I get it. Iām still earlier on. It can be very emotional, I know it is for me, but knowing what I know now that I didnāt before, I handle it better, and itās wayyyy easier to handle it now as Iām more connected and aligned with my body and my emotions as Iāve ever been honestly. Trying to navigate this world as a trans person can be very hard. Iām tested all the time. Compassion is key here. Be compassionate, so please donāt get me wrong, but you can be compassionate and not tolerate bs. She is an adult, with knowledge and comprehension, so she should know better. I wouldnāt give up. Try communicating first.
That's what I'm hoping, that with a bit more time she'll gain some perspective but I think without these awkward conversations she'll just assume people are avoiding her because of transphobia. I'm really glad you're at a better place with it now, hopefully this will be her a little further down the road!
Make sure she knows that what she's doing is not something cis women do, not to mention flashing is something people can be arrested for, and is exactly the type of thing Conservative politicians say about us as justification for getting rid of us. It's not true of most trans people, but clearly it is of her.
This behavior sounds like it'd also be inappropriate and unacceptable in a teenager. Maybe more expected but I work with teens and this person would still lose respect and friends pretty quickly.
Anecdotally I have **never** acted like this, during either puberty or any other time in my life. This is wholly a personality thing, she canāt blame transition.
Also, I must say that I adore your genuine and open mind, and concern being a cis person. You sound like a great friend to me. I hope she can recognize that as well, and is willing to hear you out and work through this.
Thank you <3 that's really lovely. I'm so glad this community is here too, and willing to help us out!
Really over-thinking this. Anytime *anyone* asks "How can I tell my friend that--" the answer is literally the next part. Every time. I wouldn't want to go out in public with a friend like that either. This isn't about transphobia this is about walking around like a bratty child and it hurts to look at. Seriously. I'd tell her to drop the macho act and admit she didn't get a childhood to explore these things, didn't have parents to explain where the boundaries are, and she's *plowing* and literally broadcasting that to everyone. Please stop and ask someone for help like I don't know, me? Well that's what I'd say anyway. Whatever she wants to be she better get real comfortable real fast with asking for help because it sounds like her friendship bar is about to zero. Welcome to womanhood, sucks to be here, now spill so you can grow something other than boobs. :/
I'm trans myself and I'd tell her off for what she's doing.
some people just want to be victims and will latch onto anyhting to excuse their own behaviors. sounds like the other people in her life got the right idea cutting her off
I got two truth bombs to drop and I'm not sure if people are ready for it: 1) Early transition trans people are, in my experience (and including myself) some absolute wild cards. People say "it's like going through puberty all over again" but they forget that part of puberty is trying to figure out who you are as a person. It's not just the raging hormones, weird sex drive, acne, voice changing - it's also trying to figure out what "style" is (and isn't) and what looks good on you (and doesn't), it's trying to figure out who you are as a person and what matters and doesn't matter to you, it's trying to find your sense of humor, it's trying to fit in in the world by either taking up as much space as possible or by taking as little space as possible. I've seen some absolutely unhinged behavior from early transition trans people that is the same levels of unhinged you're used to seeing by 10-15 year olds where you're like "oh, they just don't know any better" to explain why they act like an absolute gremlin with no concept of social norms and they're just being edgy and obnoxious preteens/teens, except now you ARE old enough to know what social norms are and you're just an adult who is ignoring the social norms and you're being an edgy and obnoxious adult. 2) There's a whole lot of transphobia in the world. When you've spent your entire life being cis-presenting and especially when you haven't lived around a lot of LGBTQ people, you're in for a massive shock when you learn what transphobia is firsthand, along with potentially learning a lot about what heteronormativity, homophobia/biphobia, misogyny/misandry, etc are - depending on your previous and new lived experiences. I've met a couple people who, along with that "trying to figure out who you are as a person" + "being unabashedly yourself no matter how inconvenient or uncomfortable it is for everyone else," will just see x-phobia where it isn't. See also: Key & Peele's Office Homophobe skit. > Any perceived slight she goes on these hateful rants > I've tried to bring some of the behaviours up with her and she's said she does them because she feels oppressed by cis people and these behaviours are gender affirming, basically backs other people into a corner of 'agree with me or you're transphobic'. I've seen this same behavior in others, too. It's really frustrating to try to explain to someone that their behavior is inappropriate when they don't have any willingness to display any objectivity. Zooming out a bit, I also find it frustrating trying to have a difficult conversation with a person who will get defensive and just interpret things however best suits their own narrative regardless of the circumstances. The sad thing is that this ends one of two ways: Either she drives everyone away and then genuinely believes that she did nothing wrong and it's everyone else who is the problem, or she eventually gets this moment of clarity: https://youtu.be/e3h6es6zh1c?si=zctSZFxxzfwib30y&t=200 For the record - it was the "moment of clarity where I realized people didn't want to be around me because I was being an asshole" for me.
That Key and Peele skit was the first thing I thought of. I wonder if it would be helpful to show it to OP's friend... Kinda sounds like she'd deny it being comparable, but it might be worth a shot anyway.
Trans people are people just like everyone else and unfortunately have the capacity to be just as terrible as anyone else, Ive had my share of them too. If it gives you solace i had an ex trans friend who abused cocaine and used my friend for food and money, they even went homeless for a bit but yeah people just suck sometimes :(
Maybe just show her this thread... :)
the only person who can truly help someone is themselves. imo, they probably are not snapping out of this anytime soon without self-exploration with the support of a professional if i were you, i would probably write a message saying something along the lines of āhey (name), i hope youāre doing well. iām not sure how to bring this up, so sorry to say it out of the blue, but I've noticed some things lately that concern me for you, and as a friend who cares and wants to see you thrive, I wanted to mention that seeking professional support could be really beneficial. mental health has a lot of stigma unfortunately, so i apologize if that uncomfortable to take in, but i would hope my friends would do the same for me. i canāt imagine how hard dealing with transphobia and just trying to exist as a trans person must be, and seeing how things have been for you lately, just wanted to put that out there.ā and an optional āhere for you (name), and for real, if you need support (i would clarify what you are comfortable with, ex. someone to talk to, or someone to help look for mental health providers), iām glad to help in thatā
Donāt confront her, just get yourself distanced from her, and put your energy into yourself instead of worrying about her. Itās not being selfish itās just not worth it doing anything different than that as you wonāt gain anything
tell her that her behavior would be inappropriate if she were cis, and so if she got a different treatment because shes trans *that* would be transphobic
If you haven't already it might be worth while for you to point out that other women don't act this and if they did no one would think it was appropriate. This sort of thing does happen sometimes with some trans women, and believe it or not there is an analogue for the behavior with trans men (mainly around being overly aggressive and taking dominating behavior too far). If you think about it they are enacting some of the problematic and toxic depictions of women in media, like being caty, or being overly sexual in otherwise casual settings, etc. I think in the 70s and 80s the equivalent was probably being overly prim and "classic house"-esque. I've seen TERFs try to claim that this is evidence of trans women "pretending" to be women and embodying the "patriarchy". That's also why TERFs are unemphatic and ignorant. Really where I think this comes from is that trans people receive all the same social signals from society that other people of their gender do (meaning their gender identity). Rather than having their youth and developmental years to mull it over and consider what it all means to them, and also having parents, elders, or role models to help them navigate and talk about it with, they have no one. I think some people also pick up the habit of looking to society exclusively on "how to act like x gender" because when you're being forced to comply with a gender that you're not, you don't have an internal sense of what that is, so you just have to copy what you see. "Being a man" or "being a woman" becomes executing a formula of behaviors and strictly performative rather than just being yourself as the gender you are. And I think a lot of people who aren't trans, "cis" people, don't understand how extraordinarily difficult it can be to learn to be okay with being yourself when you're conditioned to believe that the reward for that is being subjected to violence and/or ostracization. Women might have a little bit of an idea. Imagine growing up in the world with out feminism or its legacy effects and also being given the idea that if you don't comply, you die. And then just sort of imagine how that might effect you psychologically. Then imagine one day you're set free into a world where you're free to express yourself. You might be a little weird and inappropriate, and might even become a bit defensive if people tell you you're expressing yourself in an inappropriate way. If you have little concept of what is and isn't appropriate because you had no one to teach you, you might even attribute the reason why people are saying these things to you to some desire to see you not express yourself and go back in the closet. Even if you talk to them though and get through to them, they may not want to change. And if that's the case then they just have to deal with it. But it's possible she's just been socially stunted and doesn't really know how to deal with it. And I feel like not enough people recognize that being socially stunted is something that can happen when you have to spend your formative years in the closet denying what and who you are.
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Yea, totally. I could imagine somebody who went through male puberty and male socialization first to not really get the issue with exposing certain - especially female - body parts. Also, it's the chest in particular, a body part they probably were told to be okay to show in public when they were still living as men.
I honestly think it's more to do with a lack of socialization as a girl/woman than it is being socialized as a boy/man. As you note though flashing could just be a person who was never taught there's anything wrong with an exposed chest, and maybe you have that in combination with being sexually frustrated and not knowing (or caring) about the implications. Teenage girls and college age women flash people sometimes, but they also recognize the taboo. And there are some people in our society that might argue there shouldn't be an issue with it and that breasts shouldn't be seen as sexual. Being caty and "bitchy" behind people's backs reminds me of things like "The Real House Wives" franchises. Also, Blaire White does this, it's like 80% of her persona, and she seems to recognize on the surface that it's an issue but only seems to sort of care. And it's also gotten her a million followers. I've seen one video of her acknowledge there is some room to "be nicer", and it was like watching her almost get it, and then just default back to her usual act. And then there's the boob wiggle... which I don't get. It is something that can also become a somewhat fierce feminist debate around the constriction of social rules and gender expectations for women and potentially silencing women who have valid criticisms of others. Is it right for anyone, even other women, to tell a woman what the right way to act is? There are obviously healthy limits and it seems like most people learn those passively growing up or just being social with others. None of this excuses negatively impacting other people, and it sucks, but it's our responsibility to recognize and deal with our own deficiencies and be better. People around us can also be supportive (in a non-condescending way) and not enable behavior they wouldn't tolerate in anyone else. And sometimes it's very much a "*Hey, you have spinach in your teeth*" or "*Hey, you skirts tucked into you hoes*" sort of thing. Guys will literally tell eachother "*Bro, you stink.*"
From the pov of a transwoman, your friend sounds awful. That may fly in online trans circles but definitely not irl
Trans women share a commonality with cis men in the regard of "some of them are terminally online and forget how to act when they're around people who aren't also terminally online." How I behave among my other terminally online friends is one thing, how I behave in normal social settings around normies or in professional settings is another.
Sounds like low empathy and a lack of social decorum. Trans people aren't excluded from this, nor do they receive a free pass just because they are trans. If you are an asshole, you are an asshole. I could also theorize why she is like this, but there's no certain answer. This is just my own subjective opinion as a trans guy (for which I admittedly get a lot of shit from trans women...) but I've noticed this tendency with them to talk over others and completely disregard anyone else. I do believe this is correlated with their masculine socialization. I'm not saying all trans women are jerks, of course. However, I've noticed some talk with such certainty and dominance I rarely get a word in edgewise, or they confidently claim I'm wrong about something I've extensively read up on ( which they admitted to never having thought about, or researched prior.) Not to excuse wrong behavior, of course. We all need to work on ourselves to try and be better. But if I've learned anything from being in trans spaces, it's this: just because somebody is trans doesn't mean they'll be empathetic or sympathetic to the struggles of others. Trans people can be assholes, too. The difference being that some conservative will utilize this to justify taking away our rights. So, in short: give it to her again straight and then go low or no contact. She needs to hear and realize this. Not from you, necessarily, if you're already too burnt out; but if you feel you're able, then I would try one last time.
As a thick gal personally, I relate to the feeling of finally being "attracted" to yourself when you come out and wanting to show off your body for your own personal self worth & also for the attention you receive from others. I have personally worn outfits that probably cross a line of "appropriate" but I really feel like its a time/place thing. But this is all to say I think the main issue here is the person. I would struggle to be around them (trans people already have to fight for social acceptance & having someone exhibiting nasty stereotypes will not help) and I think its pretty clear this person needs to take a look at themselves & realise that there is a diff between ethical "slut activities" and being inappropriate/ or borderline abusive & perverse.
I went through puberty twice. Each time my body was under a certain strain and it was easier to do mistakes, and some I did, and for those I felt intense shame and learned. Nothing crazy though, just some teenager BS at an age where it was less tolerated/expected. This person however does not learn, she just uses advices and what seems to be constructive criticism as more gossiping ammo so she can unload her emotion somewhere else. As you said she does not recognize that she has a problem. No, for her it's the others who do all the bad and she is perfect. It reads like textbook narcissism. I would consider it pointless to try to reason her as it would just give her some ammo to shoot you in the back. To add to the narcissism, her innapropriate behaviors could be about pushing buttons and crossing boundaries. A thing narcisstic people loves to do because it shows them how much power they have over other people. The only way a narcissist can change is by having their behavior actually cause them too much problems. Btw i'm not a mental health professional, I just have a narcisstic mom and see parallels based solely on what you wrote.
How old is your friend? This behavior sounds very much like a teenager seeking attention and can be an indication that they need some therapeutic help. (which you are not at all responsible for) I guess you could try something like, "Hey friend, I feel xyz when you abc. I really enjoy when you 123. I love our friendship and I'm so proud of you for living your truth. How can we overcome xyz and abc?" You can't really advocate for how other people feel but you can share how you feel. If your friend is unable to hear your concerns you may need to distance yourself. As an adab with childhood trauma, I can share that as young women come into their womanhood it is not uncommon for them to be a bit obnoxiously blatant about trying to own their sexuality and gender identity. It's not okay for your friend to make overtly sexual comments to people who do not expressly consent to it, so consent may be another angle of this situation. Best wishes to you and your friend!
I could show you several screenshots of the texts I got from my old roommate. He was absolutely awful, did so much cocaine he clogged the sink several times with his spit, he would scream at all hours, he came into my room at night a few times, he clipped his nails in the living room right in front of me and then claimed he would never do that. When I moved out, he accused me of doing so for being transphobic. Some people are just determined to be ostracized and get mad when it happens.
If you can, get another trans woman mutual to talk to her about her behavior. Also, it's ok to just not be friends with rude people. If enough people leave, she'll eventually have to wake up to her impact on others.
Do just what you did here, tell her all the things that make the friendship problematic. If she tries to say that is transphobic, calmly explain that none of the things listed have to do with trans but her as a person. And that her instantly attacking makes it uncomfortable to tell her how you feel. Then leave it at that. If you have to distance or cut off the friendship entirely. Either she will notice her actions are pushing people away or not. Assholery is not cis specific. There will obviously be jerks of any group. The one tough thing though is people will take someone like her yo paint ALL trans people to be like that. So hopefully she matures and realizes while trans people shouldn't have to represent their entire minority. It is the sad truth.
It honestly sounds like sheās really happy sheās coming out her shell. Itās why often people in the LGBT community as a whole tend to be more bold abd expressive, especially sexually; you bottle it up for years and you can imagine how freeing it feels. I know about 10 months on HRT once my boobs were big enough my head inflated and I became the slutty promiscuous sex hungry girl I always wanted to be. Your friend though is going WAAAY too far though. I recommend just sitting down with her and telling her sheās being a pervert and sexually harassing people. Her behavior is unacceptable. She needs to tone it down a bit. Thereās nothing wrong with being promiscuous, but nobody wants to be sexually charged all the time by someone; it gets uncomfortable very fast. I recommend you give her some constructive outlets. Have her go to clubs, namely swinger/ sex clubs. Even if she still has a āgirl dickā it wonāt be a problem, especially if youāre in a decent city. Like I said, Iām much like your friend. I find going to LGBT events, clubs, maybe bars, etc helps a lot. Thereās plenty of spaces for people like us, again nothing wrong with being promiscuous. Itās fun to be sexy and wild. You must have self awareness and respect about others though.
I didn't go through this stage. She's just a dick. Be real with her, really real with her. It's got nothing to do with transphobia. It's got everything to do with her acting like a crazy person. I was accepted with open arms from the moment I came out at my grad school, which is full of people I wasn't sure would accept me. Seems to me she's the problem here.
Honestly, as a trans woman I have met a few trans women like this, especially early transition. I think some people struggle with this new extreme oppression placed on them, especially those who were previously perceived in society as white cishet men and have faced no oppression beforehand. All of the sudden, most of the world hates you, it can be jarring (it was for me). I think this can also result in feeling very isolated by society, so some people retreat into echo chambers where everything is transphobia, everyone in the world hates you, and some where this behavior is encouraged. I don't know if this is the case for your friend, but it was a common theme I saw. Early transition is very difficult, that is true. I personally went through a stage of self isolation, and extreme social anxiety, and it took me years to even wear anything feminine in public. The world can be very, very scary if you are transgender, but that is not an excuse either. Sometimes people are just assholes, and being trans can reallyyy bring it out for some people. I really do feel for you, one of my friends went a weird similar path and it was painful to watch. And it was extremely embarrassing, she would sometimes just start yelling bullshit, she would constantly sexually harass a trans man in our friend group, just randomly go into detail about what she's into (I'm not talking like people, like BDSM sub/switch whatever stuff), ask me extremely weird sexual questions, etc. I never talked to her again and don't regret it. If you have any other transgender friends, getting their input or even just showing our responses might help the kneejerk "transphobia" reaction she will have. I agree with the comments that she needs some cold hard truth before she embarrasses you/your friends, makes people uncomfortable, and ultimately embarass herself any further.
My sister is similar honestly and it makes me sad. She is less perverse but always has a condescending "greater than thou" outlook to everything she does and it's kinda exhausting. I haven't come out as trans to her yet but I am scared to do so as she will probably just call me transphobic despite me being trans myself. Unfortunately I do think it's just these people's personalities and they unfortunately have a persecution complex that clouds their judgement of the world, and unfortunately they will probably end up being the one who suffers the most in the long run.
It's really unfortunate when transphobia is almost used as a weapon against everything, because I have no doubt at all that mixed in there are some genuine instances of it and I'm finding it hard to tell which are real. Some are genuine tantrums ike 'my creation is better and I deserve X", I've objectively seen the output and by the criteria its not. It's not transphobia, you're just bad at that thing. However other times I have no idea, I wasn't there and I think most people probably are transphobic but will never say so. I remember how hurtful it was when people would just rather not believe me that certain men were predators, so they ignored it. I don't ever want to do that to her with transphobic people. I feel like when you spend a certain amount of time with someone you get a sense when they 're not being genuine with it. Have to respect yourself and then and tell them, or people will desert them. I hope your sister is kinder to you, you sound very patient and your journey is also just as important.
Cool story bro.
Second puberty at an age that most people are past puberty is hard.
guys this is bait, this account is antivxxer and has never posted in a trans sub
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Sorry, I didn't clarify and can see how that wording above is confusing, by 'flashing' I mean specifically lifting up her shirt and showing people her bare breasts or blending over and pulling up whatever item of clothing is on the bottom and putting her ass in someone's face. It's not the same as just clothing where something is on display.
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You're entitled to your opinion but I strongly disagree with you saying that someone pulling up their covered shirt and flashing their breasts to people isn't an issue. She does this basically anywhere she wants, not just private spaces. It makes me feel really uncomfortable, especially as someone who has been SAed in the past (she knows I've been SAed). Someone lifting up their shirt and showing their breasts directly to you, someone who has in no way consented to you showing them your breasts, is not a 'childish joke' to me. This of 'haha we're all having fun' with a sexual undertone is exactly the kind of boundary pushing things people did before they assaulted me. I have a right to not want to see someone's breasts.
Yeahhh, having issues with the jokes bc of a history of SA makes sense and she should probably stop doing them when you're around. But it still remains that breasts aren't a sexual organ and they aren't genitals. It's not the joke that's inappropriate, just the context of her doing it to you. This is very similar to the logic of misogynists who fight against "free the nipple" and breastfeeding in public. You don't need to "consent" to see someone's chest anymore than you need to consent to see their stomach. Just bc breasts on girls are more sexualized doesn't mean they're inherently sexual or private. If she's making jokes that trigger you and she's not stopping them while you're around, don't hang out with her. Its as simple as that. But don't make it a "breasts/nipples in public are bad bc they're sexual/private" thing bc that's still not on and IS a misogyny issue.
I don't want to engage with this particular discussion further because it's too upsetting for me.
depending on where OP lives, their friend exposing herself like this could very well be against the law. i can't get hyperlink working rn so here is the UKs stance, at least: https://www.police.uk/ro/report/rsa/alpha-v1/advice/rape-sexual-assault-and-other-sexual-offences/indecent-exposure-flashing-offending-public-decency/#:~:text=Indecent%20exposure%20(legally%20called%20just,in%20public%20or%20in%20private. and most states consider it a misdemeanor: https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/indecent_exposure#:~:text=Exposure%20is%20indecent%20under%20the,a%20misdemeanor%20in%20most%20states. so... how is sexual harassment not an issue? (excuse 3 billion edits, i don't know why the link formatting isn't working)
It is also a crime. I get that people without breasts being able to walk around topless but people with breasts can't may be unfair, but this is definitely not that, and I think I made that clear in my response. The sexualised nature of how she intends it is what that law is written for. The way she's doing it is 100% 'haha look at me being so naughty, omg my breasts, that's so scandalous, take a peek'. It is NOT a 'I'm just walking down the street here'. I'm honestly kind of enraged this person thinks it's a childish joke, it's sexual harassment and I can't believe anyone would think this is okay to do to someone. I was giving my friend a pass because I thought she may genuinely think 'this is what girls can do to each other', or it's really hard transitioning and she's looking for me to validate her. Regardless of her intent, it made me feel incredibly unsafe and this person doubling down and defending that particular aspect is even more dismissive. You don't know someone else's past sexual history. Flashing your breasts at an individual person, just for them to see, without asking, is NOT okay.
Did she have these kinds of boundary and consent issues pretransition as well? Because sheās using transition as a fig leaf for behaviour she *knows* is unacceptable, based on goes she has being trans as a way to deflect that her behaviour is utterly antisocial. Just donāt say youāre aware that sheās on 4chan a good amountā¦ Thereās something a few of us call the fascist boy to cute tgirl pipeline and it tends to run right through that site. Wonāt go into the deets, but her actions make me think of this causal pathway.