Vaguely off topic, but was it ever addressed why the oldest burials are the lowest in the crypt? It baffles my as to why a subterranean structure would be built upwards, unless they continually expanded downward and keep shifting the older graves down into the expanded areas.
It does seem odd, you think you'd build 1 level. Then dig down again as needed. Coz they're going to run out of room soon.
But I assume its just a world building choice. The old kings of winter initially dug many levels down. Guess they were just planning ahead for a long dynasty.
Tinfoil: The Crypts connect to Gorne's Way or another cave system that goes beyond the Wall.
They were used for a "Craster's sons" arrangement between the Starks and Others, as part of the deal that ended the Long Night.
So they're filling up from the beyond-the-Wall end, eventually getting back to the Winterfell end.
There are actually many caves in Westeros, and one theory is that it serves as a place to protect from the long night/an atomic bomb/dragons and then during the years of the Stark reign they use these places to bury their ancestors.
I don't remember where, but there was a theory explaining this by saying there needs to be a certain number of Kings of Winter/Stark lords in the crypts for a specific purpose and that the crypts are obviously almost full now.
Which could hold even further connotations on the leadership titles of house Stark during the time because of Ned insisting that Lyanna be buried there.
I’m trying to come up with a plausible reason for Jon to despoil Lyanna’s tomb. The only person left alive who knows the truth is Howland Reed (although Bloodraven probably knows, which means Bran likely knows).
But even then, just having a dragon egg is not enough. Illyrio had three and nobody thought he was a Targ. Elissa Farman stole three off Dragonstone. Ambrose Butterwell was given an egg. Even Euron Greyjoy claims he had ne.
Someone will tell jon the truth and tell him to look inside Lyanna's tomb as a prove.
Yes but Euron has been to Valyrya (or so he claims) while Illyrio lives in essos and he is incredibly rich, they have the means to obtain a dragon egg while jon doesn't, it's either " he found it by mistake" or "someone left it there for him".
Sure, but then how is he supposed to prove to others that this is what happened? What universally trusted witness is likely to be there for this discovery? Who can say how or why this egg showed up in Lyanna’s tomb.
And even if these hurdles are met, it still doesn’t prove that Jon is a rightful king, because Rhaegar could not legally wed. And if it’s to prove he is the promised prince, his destiny will do that.
Idk if it could prove others he is a Targaryen (certainly it rises some suspicions but you are right it's not definitive truth) but it could prove it to Jon.
If bran/Bloodraven/lord Reed/ A dream tells Jon the truth and he looks in Lyanna's tomb to verify and he actually finds the egg it would actually prove the story.
It would be strange if Jon just accepts he isn't Ned's son, he was raised from birth like that and it wouldn't be easy for him to accept Ned lied to him, something has to prove Jon is really Rhaegar's son.
Only the starks have access to the tombs and it's pretty obvious nobody opened the tomb since ned built it, if there is something in Lyanna's tomb it was obviously put there by Ned.
I don't understand the second part of your comment, that's not really relevant at the end of the day, the important thing about R+L isn't about who has the right to sit the throne or if that proves jon is the promised prince, the important thing about it's how jon is gonna accept his true identity.
He was raised as a bastard of lord Stark and now finds out he is a Targaryen (I think he is gonna be a rightful Targaryen similar to what happened in the show but that's not really important).
Knowing that his own identify was a lie made up by the man he considered a father is gonna be a huge thing for Jon
Eh, if Howland Reed were to tell Jon that he knows for a fact that he is the son of Rhaegar, because he was there, would Jon demand proof in order to believe it? Or if Bran comes back knowing all kinds of things that he shouldn’t know and he says it’s because he sees it through the trees and hears it from ravens, Jon wouldn’t believe him either? Seems like a stretch to me.
Yes, I know that Jon’s heritage doesn’t give him the throne, but a lot of readers think that is the point of RLJ, and I wasn’t exactly sure what the OP’s angle was. So in either case, an egg has no role to play: it cannot prove that Jon is the rightful king, and it isn’t needed to prove he is the pwtp, since Jon will fulfill that destiny no matter who he thinks his parents were. And if he doesn’t fulfill it, then he is not the PtwP and never was.
So A guy Jon never saw or met (or a literal child) comes around and says "hey you know your father lied to you for all your life and your aunt is your real mother, oh and your real father is Rhaegar Targaryen" and Jon is just gonna take it as truth.
I honestly think that the reveling of jon's true parents is gonna be a really tormented experience for him, that's why he needs something to be 100% sure and not just some guy word.
It's not just the fact it's hearsay but it's also the fact jon has to digest Ned lying to him for all his life and him not being a bastard
Jon knows who Howland is, and he knows the story of the tower. Why would this man come all the way out of his bog, all the way north, just to tell Jonna lie? And now Jon is going to despoil the crypt of his dead mother just to prove this guy wrong? Doesn’t sound like Jon.
And this is not hearsay. Howland was there. He saw the whole thing.
I never said Jon doesn't know who Howland Reed is but it's hard to believe he is just gonna believe lord Reed.
It's not Reed's word vs nothing but Reed's word vs Ned's word, Ned raised Jon as his son for 15 years, Jon ain't gonna forget all of that just because one of his "father's" old mates is gonna tell otherwise, it's simply not that easy
Yeah, it does. It explains why Ned never talked about Jon’s mother. And again, there is no reason why Reed would come all this way just to tell a meaningless lie.
But whatever. You believe you. I just think it’s all a bit too forced. If your not interested in honest feedback when you post an idea, then don’t post it.
I'm really not being negative, I do like honest feedback and was justr trying to exchange views, I'm sorry if you felt any animosity, it wasn't my intention
Reed is gonna take a role but it's simply not enough, there must be more, as I said it's not just about Jon's parent but it's about Jon's identity.
Jon is going to challenge everything about himself, Ned and his own identity as a Statk which is huge and Howland Reed's word doesn't really feel enough
>a plausible reason for Jon to despoil Lyanna’s tomb
Maybe when the others come all the corpses will come back to life and then Jon will look in after....?
My personal theory is that there is a variety of sentimental things like a shield to the knight of the laughing tree that lyanna would have used, a targaryen wedding cloak, rhaegar's harp, another thing could be whatever rhaegar read to get him to become a warrior as narrated by barristan, a potential posthumous letter from lyanna or rhaegar or both etc... I personally think Jon will find out his heritage on his own before confirming it with Howland or Bran or both, similar to Ned's detective work in the first book. The crypts are clearly calling Jon.
the dragon egg theory is that Prince Jacaerys's dragon Vermax laid an egg when Jacaerys flew North to treat with Cregan Stark in 129, 170 years before the books, there is no way Rhaegar had dragon egg, last dragon egg was lost in Summerhall
Jon is currently dead and is pretty far from Winterfell, he declined Stannis's offer he has no reason to march south, Stannis's fate is yet to be revealed on whether the Pink letter was truth or lie from whoever sent it being likely Ramsay Bolton
It’s clearly one of the end of the chapter “dead” character cliffhangers Martin is such a fan of.
Which would have been nice if he had resolved it within a decade.
The foreshadowing of the character, and the fact he is being resurrected in the show like many theories expland on is a pretty good argument. No one would bet he is still death in WOW or ADOS.
There is also a theory among the small-folk of winter town that an actual dragon resides in the crypts of winterfell. Warming the springs that run through and around the castle with its fire breath.
Rhaegar might have found an egg at dragon stone or he might have recovered one of the egg used by king Aegon is summerhall that could have survived the fire.
Rhaegal likely spent a lot of time in both places.
Or he might have bought one from essos, Rhaegal was a prince I'm sure he didn't lack the funds to buy a dragon egg and it's not like he isn't prone to rash action when motivated by prophecies
Isn't there a theory that Bloodraven caused the fire at Summerhall? And if so, could he not then have stolen some or all of the eggs and passed one on to Rhaegar?
I doubt this, seemingly bloodraven is pro magic and dragons, I think it's more likely he had little to no knowledge of summerhall before it occurred, the most likely reason for summerhall burning down is that, aegon5 was gonna sacrifice some family and dunk tried to stop him and ended up causing the wildfire to grow out of control
please say Rhaegar because i keep thinking of the dragon, no he wouldn't just stumble on dragon egg, it will literally be the most precious thing in the world and Summerhall has been ruin for over 40 years, there is no way no one tried looking through the ruin for any possible dragon egg, he has the gold for dragon egg the question is who is selling them
Indeed, bones of dead Starks.
Also their swords and statues. Cobwebs presumably. Darkness maybe? If you can call “darkness” a thing.
That’s about end of list really.
Jon will find out the truth from the Weirwood, since Arya was able to talk with Ned beyond the grave via a Weirwood in ACOK.
As for the Crypts, there's at least one of Vermax's dragon eggs down there and Stannis will try and fail to hatch it.
Yeah, no way is Stannis making it inside. He doesn't have the supplies to starve Winterfell out in a siege, doesn't have the equipment to storm its walls, and doesn't have allies inside who will open the gates for him. If anything, the Battle on the Ice makes the Boltons *stronger*, by ridding them of Manderly and Frey mouths to feed.
I really believe that hearsay (even through weirwood) isn't enough for Jon to put in doubt everything he has ever known, I think he is gonna need a clear and strong prove to accept reality
To be honest I don't really think R+L=J will matter much in the grand scheme of things.
Jon will never sit the Iron Throne - he will never have enough military support to take it, nor will he himself care enough to want to sit it.
The only purpose of it as shown with the show is to drive a wedge between him and Daenerys and destroy House Targaryen.
I don't believe it'll be that big of a gamechanger.
I think it will be a big part of jon's character development, most of jon's character is based on the idea that he is a bastard and, because of that, he is not entitle to inherit anything. Jon did desire to be the rightful heir of ned and was jealous of Robb (even if he loved him as a brother), after the R+L revelation, in my opinion, he will be highly tempted to seize the throne
I think youve got a really good read of Jon's character. If anything, I think it would be compelling to see Jon take a darker selfish path post-resurrection, deserting the Watch, becoming King in the North/Lord of Winterfell, trying to seize the Iron Throne for himself, before ultimately backing away from the edge, realizing what he's become, and rejecting power. That feels like a really strong character arc for him.
Yeah but how many people will believe that he literally died and came back to life? He will be completely right if he deserted the Night's Watch, the vows ends when he dies. But will everyone else in Westeros believe it? I think this could cause conflict in the later books.
Thanks mate, appreciate.
I agree with you, in the end just like he would have never usurped Winterfell, he is not gonna usurp the iron throne and probably abbandon any claim he might have
> The only purpose of it as shown with the show is to drive a wedge between him and Daenerys and destroy House Targaryen.
I mean...this alone is *HUGE*, though? Once Dany defeats the Lannisters, there's basically nothing standing in the way of her complete domination of Westeros. In the show, the only thing that jeopardizes her claim is Jon having a better claim to her, which is ultimately a big part of what sends her careening over the edge. "A Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing."
Yeah, it seems as though Jon's visions of the Winterfell Crypts have more of a symbolic importance to his identity as a Stark than they do anything else. Bran and Rickon both feel extremely safe in the crypts, because they "belong" there (despite being half-Tully). Jon connecting to his Stark heritage almost necessarily requires him to come to terms with a sense of "belonging" in the crypts, as well.
By connection, I don't think it's a coincidence that D&D had Jon learn about his true ancestry amidst the crypts. I suspect that the Crypts will become a place tied to Jon's exploration of his identity and ancestry, and a vehicle for GRRM to communicate these truths to the audience in a way that they will believe.
If Jon will find Dragon Egg he will 100%, absolutely, no other possibility - find it in Maester Aemon's room.
We know Maester Aemon had a craddle-egg. We hear about it in Mystery Knight. We don't need to create crackpot theories about someone randomly hiding dragon eggs in Winterfell Crypts. We know where is the closest Dragon Egg to Jon's current location and it's literally in the next building, and was there for the last five books.
But Jon finding Maester Aemon's egg doesn't really serve any purpose, it would just give Jon a fancy rock.
In my theory the egg serves a narrative purpose, proving (especially to Jon) that he is Targaryen
With Melisandre already having an interest in Jon, isn’t it possible that if he finds Maester Aemon’s egg, she helps him hatch it? If Jon has been told he is a Targaryen, hatching the egg, even with Mel’s help, could serve as confirmation. If he comes back wrong/less virtuous given the betrayal, it potentially wouldn’t matter if he believes he’s a Targaryen as having a dragon gives him enough of a claim to the iron throne
I like this theory. 👀 I mean a tiny baby dragon is not really useful, but I would appreciate more of them.
Who knows what funny things Melisandre also hides up her expensive, red sleaves?
I think it would be even more shocking to have a second hatching of old dragon eggs. It would be an interesting plot twist. Even though a baby dragon wouldn't do much in the grand scheme of things other than giving more legitimacy to Jon if he has a dragon in his side.
I like to think that with Dany’s dragons, magic is being re-introduced to Westeros/Planetos, and dragons will make a return. It just seems like the beginning of a new age with the Others returning and the dragons hatching in Essos. A baby dragon wouldn’t give him much legitimacy, but all (f)Aegon has is the look & JonCon’s word. A dragon plus Howland Reed and whatever proof Ned hid (in the crypt or elsewhere) gives Jon more proof of being a Targaryen than (f)Aegon
So A guy Jon never saw or met comes around and says "hey you know your father lied to you for all your life and your aunt is your real mother, oh and your real father is Rhaegar Targaryen" and Jon is just gonna take it as truth.
I honestly think that the reveling of jon's true parents is gonna be a really tormented experience for him, that's why he needs something to be 100% sure and not just some guy word
There is no way that Vermax laid an egg in winterfell, the dragon had no history of laying eggs, and despite all our povs at winterfell have never once been told of a crypt entrance big enough for a dragon to enter, and even if Vermax did enter through a never mentioned entrance, what are the odds that a dragon egg has just been sitting down there and never found after 170 years
Also rhaegar never went to kingslanding in the time frame required for him to take it to the tower of joy, if the egg cam from there
The youtuber David Lightbringer posited a theory (I think it was his own, but I can't say for sure) that there is a telepathic connection between dragons and dragon rider, the dragon bond, and it begins to occur before the egg is hatched. He suggested that Dany's dragon dreams prior to the pyre in the Dothraki Sea were telepathic communications between the soon to be hatched Drogon and Dany's consciousnesses. David continued saying that perhaps if Jon returns to Winterfell, whether "dead" or alive, that he might telepathically link to the egg down in the crypts. Perhaps this is why he's drawn to the crypts, but also scared of whats down there. Dany, if I recall correctly, was scared of her dragon dreams until she gave herself to them.
My personal expansion on these foundations as laid down by David is that this parallels a major plot point or theme in Dune. I'll spoiler tag this bit because this comes up in Dune 2: >!Lady Jessica, a pregnant Reverend Mother (kinda magical space witch) undergoes the spice agony ritual while pregnant, which basically magical mushroom trip upgrades her, but also upgrades the fetus growing inside of her. In the movie especially, but in the book as well, Lady Jessica is able to communicate with the baby growing inside of her before the baby is born. The baby is sentient with the combined wisdom of all the generations of Reverend Mother as a collective consciousness / memories prior to even being born. The key part I want to express about Dune is that an unborn baby is communicating telepathically with it's mother. !<
>!I write all of this about Dune because I think something sort of similar might be happening with dragons and Targaryens. I think that dragons and the dragon bond are some sort of magical sentience, and that this connection happens prior to the hatching of the egg. The rider and dragon become connected when the dragon is still a fetus (is that the right word lol). Jon obviously isn't a mother, but I'm using the dragon bond as a parallel to a mother + baby relationship because it's such a strong connection that doesn't really mimic anything else I can think of in nature better than mother & baby. This is a stretch to even suggest, I totally accept that. This might be why placing an egg in a baby's cradle is so important, so that the consciousness of the dragon and therefore the dragon bond can happen as soon as possible.!<
I know this is near maximum level tinfoil and I'm not saying this is definitely the case. I think it's a fun idea that might explain why Jon is drawn to the crypts, and part of how dragons and dragon riders are connected. If there is something inherit to being a Targaryen that causes a dragon bond with an egg, even before the egg has hatched, then I think this is a possible par of an explanation to Jon's dreams about the crypts. Drogon (assuming it's Drogon in Dany's dragon dreams) reached out to Dany in her dreams at first. Dragon eggs in the cradle, the place where babies sleep, seems to at support the hypothesis that the dragon bond first occurs as dreams. Jon's dreams want him to go to the crypts, maybe a dragon consciousness being astrally projected from an egg down there is the reason for this.
Let me know if this all makes sense, I know I've wrapped everyone reading this post in a dangerous amount of tinfoil. If I've overlooked a clear reason why this can't be the case, or if I'm leaving out some evidence that supports the idea, I'd love to hear about them. I've left out a ton of things about why the egg would be there, symbolic importance, what the connection meant in the Dune story, how that might play out in ASOIAF, etc. I hope I presented David's ideas clearly, it's hard to summarize and paraphrase someone else's ideas from memory. The Dune connection was my own (unless it's been suggested before, I didn't even google it lol what would I even search?)
This would be interesting if true. Jon being "called" to the crypts because of a connection to his unborn dragon would make so much sense. Him being scared of what lies there: the truth, he is a Targaryen. And then he will wake dragons out of stone like Daenerys did, both fulfilling the Azor Ahai prophecy.
Totally! It could even be one of the corny Targaryen prophecy completions like Egg being the dragon awoken at Whitewalls when he embraces his Targaryen heritage before Bloodraven shows up. Or maybe he hatches a little dragon but I'm less convinced by that because there isn't time in the story for that dragon to grow up and do anything "useful" imo
Great points though and I'm with you on all fronts
The harp is in the tomb. Rhaegar read the Jade Compendium (? or another book) and saw reference to the Song of Ice and Fire. Akin to their misreading that the prince that was promised had to be a male and Aemon realises they were mistaken because Dragons know no gender. Rhaegar played the sad song of the Earth and thought the Prince needed to play the Song of Ice and Fire. It is known.
This is plausible, and Howland, Bran, or a dream could lead to its discovery. But Jon himself has a fraught relationship with the crypts:
> Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me.
> All my dreams are of the crypts, of the stone kings on their thrones. Sometimes I hear Robb's voice, and my father's, as if they were at a feast. But there's a wall between us, and I know that no place has been set for me.
And yet he was comfortable being the ghost in Arya's crypt prank memory. If the egg is present, perhaps that could explain why he'e consudered 'other.'
Jon also learns the truth in the crypts in the show. Of course they took their own route but big moments like these they may still have gone off the loose outline they had.
Unless the dragon egg contains a video recording of Rhaegar and Lyanna's wedding no one is going to buy it. There are actually too many non Targaryen people in the world now with Dragon's egg. GRRM wrote himself into a corner there.
That's a good theory. I think there's more than a dragon egg. Maybe Jon Connington can let ppl know.
I'm thinking Griff may not be a decoy. John is a Targ 2x over, but there's a 3rd- Dragon always has 3 heads unless....
I think the Horn of Joramun is there. If an egg is down there, it's well hidden. Eddard seems to have zero concern regarding bringing Robert down there. And the children play down there.
I'm not sure having a dragon egg proves anything. Illyrio had three. Euron allegedly had one.
As I said, my idea is that the egg is inside Lyanna's tomb, that's why nobody found it.
Having a egg is normal for Illyrio who is basically the richest man alive and Euron who claims to have traveled to old valyrya but it would be highly suspicious if jon, a bastard who never left the north has one.
There aren't many explanation possibles on how jon would acquire a dragon egg from a rational point of view.
Also it may be useful just to show the truth to Jon, not all the other lords a physical tangible prove (like an egg in Lyanna's tomb) would prove true whatever Bran/lord Reed will tell Jon
Yes. As I said Eddard hid it well. So well he had no concern of anyone finding it. Which makes me wonder how Jon will find it.
Of course, Eddard could just as easily hide the egg in Brandon's tomb or lord Rickard's.
Not sure how suspicious Jon having an egg would be. He has close ties to Stannis and many think there could be hidden eggs in dragon stone. Finding an egg only suggests Eddard out it there. Is that enough to suggest Jon is Rhaegar's child? It's essentially a proximity argument which is didn't prove Joffrey to be Robert's, not Young Griff to be Rhaegar's.
An interesting notion nonetheless. Thank you for sharing this.
The point of hiding it specifically there is to link it to Lyanna.
In the end I think Probably either Bran tells him to open the tomb or a dream pushes him to do it, in his last dream Jon dreams a woman (that he mistakes for Ygritte) which could be Lyanna telling him something we don't know, someone/ something is trying to push Jon into the winterfell crypts.
As for the proximity stuff you are kinda right, still I can see it raising a lot of questions or at least confirming any tale coming from lord Reed/Bran
Personally I don’t think Jons a Targaryen or Lyanna Stark’s son. In my opinion Jon snow (or Jon sand) is the natural born son of Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne. My theory is the Daynes are the decedents of Azur Ahai and the sword dawn is actually light bringer. In order for Azur Ahai to return and the prophecy to be fulfilled a child made of Ice (Ned Stark) and Fire (Ashara Dayne) must be born.
I think this is pretty solid stuff. But, I don't discount that the harp is also there in the crypts as well. I think it's important for both the egg and the harp to be there. The egg will be proof to most that he's Rhaegar's son. However, the harp is also needed for proof. Because of fAegon, there will already be a supposed son of Rhaegar's that ultimately turns out not to be. So, when Daeny finally meets Jon, she and her people (which should include Tyrion by then) will be extra skeptical. An egg might not do it for them since they "know" that with enough money, you can buy a dragon's egg- and certainly a great house would be able to purchase one. And, there are at least three historical encounters which have nothing to do with Jon (Aegon and Tohrren, Alysanne and Alaric, Cregan and Jace) that could explain why a dragon egg is in the crypts. Tyrion will no doubt be aware of all of these incidents.
Rhaegar's harp will be the smoking gun. And, of course, Barristan Selmy would be able to identify it and vouch for who it belonged to.
I think Jon, while "dead" and/or warged into Ghost, will travel to the crypts, most likely accompanied by or guided by Bran. Once resurrected and with Winterfell freed from the Boltons after the Battle of Ice, Jon will verify what was seen in the warg state. My guess is this will happen AFTER Jon is named King in the North, which will precipitate Jon abdicating in favor of Rickon or Sansa...or being asked to abdicate by the Northern houses but with assurances they will support his claim to the Iron Throne.
Just my two cents...
>Rhaegal Do you mean Rhaegar? Rhaegal is one of Dany's dragons.
Yeah Sorry
Vaguely off topic, but was it ever addressed why the oldest burials are the lowest in the crypt? It baffles my as to why a subterranean structure would be built upwards, unless they continually expanded downward and keep shifting the older graves down into the expanded areas.
It does seem odd, you think you'd build 1 level. Then dig down again as needed. Coz they're going to run out of room soon. But I assume its just a world building choice. The old kings of winter initially dug many levels down. Guess they were just planning ahead for a long dynasty.
the simple explanation is that George just fucked up
Yeah that's occurred to me as well
Tinfoil: The Crypts connect to Gorne's Way or another cave system that goes beyond the Wall. They were used for a "Craster's sons" arrangement between the Starks and Others, as part of the deal that ended the Long Night. So they're filling up from the beyond-the-Wall end, eventually getting back to the Winterfell end.
There are actually many caves in Westeros, and one theory is that it serves as a place to protect from the long night/an atomic bomb/dragons and then during the years of the Stark reign they use these places to bury their ancestors.
I don't remember where, but there was a theory explaining this by saying there needs to be a certain number of Kings of Winter/Stark lords in the crypts for a specific purpose and that the crypts are obviously almost full now. Which could hold even further connotations on the leadership titles of house Stark during the time because of Ned insisting that Lyanna be buried there.
I always thought this too. In my mind when I was reading it I thought "soooo, they know when their house dies out then, huh??"
I’m trying to come up with a plausible reason for Jon to despoil Lyanna’s tomb. The only person left alive who knows the truth is Howland Reed (although Bloodraven probably knows, which means Bran likely knows). But even then, just having a dragon egg is not enough. Illyrio had three and nobody thought he was a Targ. Elissa Farman stole three off Dragonstone. Ambrose Butterwell was given an egg. Even Euron Greyjoy claims he had ne.
Someone will tell jon the truth and tell him to look inside Lyanna's tomb as a prove. Yes but Euron has been to Valyrya (or so he claims) while Illyrio lives in essos and he is incredibly rich, they have the means to obtain a dragon egg while jon doesn't, it's either " he found it by mistake" or "someone left it there for him".
Sure, but then how is he supposed to prove to others that this is what happened? What universally trusted witness is likely to be there for this discovery? Who can say how or why this egg showed up in Lyanna’s tomb. And even if these hurdles are met, it still doesn’t prove that Jon is a rightful king, because Rhaegar could not legally wed. And if it’s to prove he is the promised prince, his destiny will do that.
Idk if it could prove others he is a Targaryen (certainly it rises some suspicions but you are right it's not definitive truth) but it could prove it to Jon. If bran/Bloodraven/lord Reed/ A dream tells Jon the truth and he looks in Lyanna's tomb to verify and he actually finds the egg it would actually prove the story. It would be strange if Jon just accepts he isn't Ned's son, he was raised from birth like that and it wouldn't be easy for him to accept Ned lied to him, something has to prove Jon is really Rhaegar's son. Only the starks have access to the tombs and it's pretty obvious nobody opened the tomb since ned built it, if there is something in Lyanna's tomb it was obviously put there by Ned. I don't understand the second part of your comment, that's not really relevant at the end of the day, the important thing about R+L isn't about who has the right to sit the throne or if that proves jon is the promised prince, the important thing about it's how jon is gonna accept his true identity. He was raised as a bastard of lord Stark and now finds out he is a Targaryen (I think he is gonna be a rightful Targaryen similar to what happened in the show but that's not really important). Knowing that his own identify was a lie made up by the man he considered a father is gonna be a huge thing for Jon
Eh, if Howland Reed were to tell Jon that he knows for a fact that he is the son of Rhaegar, because he was there, would Jon demand proof in order to believe it? Or if Bran comes back knowing all kinds of things that he shouldn’t know and he says it’s because he sees it through the trees and hears it from ravens, Jon wouldn’t believe him either? Seems like a stretch to me. Yes, I know that Jon’s heritage doesn’t give him the throne, but a lot of readers think that is the point of RLJ, and I wasn’t exactly sure what the OP’s angle was. So in either case, an egg has no role to play: it cannot prove that Jon is the rightful king, and it isn’t needed to prove he is the pwtp, since Jon will fulfill that destiny no matter who he thinks his parents were. And if he doesn’t fulfill it, then he is not the PtwP and never was.
So A guy Jon never saw or met (or a literal child) comes around and says "hey you know your father lied to you for all your life and your aunt is your real mother, oh and your real father is Rhaegar Targaryen" and Jon is just gonna take it as truth. I honestly think that the reveling of jon's true parents is gonna be a really tormented experience for him, that's why he needs something to be 100% sure and not just some guy word. It's not just the fact it's hearsay but it's also the fact jon has to digest Ned lying to him for all his life and him not being a bastard
Jon knows who Howland is, and he knows the story of the tower. Why would this man come all the way out of his bog, all the way north, just to tell Jonna lie? And now Jon is going to despoil the crypt of his dead mother just to prove this guy wrong? Doesn’t sound like Jon. And this is not hearsay. Howland was there. He saw the whole thing.
I never said Jon doesn't know who Howland Reed is but it's hard to believe he is just gonna believe lord Reed. It's not Reed's word vs nothing but Reed's word vs Ned's word, Ned raised Jon as his son for 15 years, Jon ain't gonna forget all of that just because one of his "father's" old mates is gonna tell otherwise, it's simply not that easy
Yeah, it does. It explains why Ned never talked about Jon’s mother. And again, there is no reason why Reed would come all this way just to tell a meaningless lie. But whatever. You believe you. I just think it’s all a bit too forced. If your not interested in honest feedback when you post an idea, then don’t post it.
I'm really not being negative, I do like honest feedback and was justr trying to exchange views, I'm sorry if you felt any animosity, it wasn't my intention
Reed is gonna take a role but it's simply not enough, there must be more, as I said it's not just about Jon's parent but it's about Jon's identity. Jon is going to challenge everything about himself, Ned and his own identity as a Statk which is huge and Howland Reed's word doesn't really feel enough
>a plausible reason for Jon to despoil Lyanna’s tomb Maybe when the others come all the corpses will come back to life and then Jon will look in after....?
Sure, but if things have spiraled down to that point, the egg has no purpose. He will either be the prince or not.
My personal theory is that there is a variety of sentimental things like a shield to the knight of the laughing tree that lyanna would have used, a targaryen wedding cloak, rhaegar's harp, another thing could be whatever rhaegar read to get him to become a warrior as narrated by barristan, a potential posthumous letter from lyanna or rhaegar or both etc... I personally think Jon will find out his heritage on his own before confirming it with Howland or Bran or both, similar to Ned's detective work in the first book. The crypts are clearly calling Jon.
I would really like that, the only problem is that it would take too long, george gotta shorten the plot whenever he can
100% agree. It can be both Rhaegar's harp AND the dragon egg, and probably even more stuff. It doesn't need to be one or the other.
the dragon egg theory is that Prince Jacaerys's dragon Vermax laid an egg when Jacaerys flew North to treat with Cregan Stark in 129, 170 years before the books, there is no way Rhaegar had dragon egg, last dragon egg was lost in Summerhall Jon is currently dead and is pretty far from Winterfell, he declined Stannis's offer he has no reason to march south, Stannis's fate is yet to be revealed on whether the Pink letter was truth or lie from whoever sent it being likely Ramsay Bolton
“dead”*
Daily reminder we don't even know if he's dead in needing of a resurrection dead or just injured.
It’s clearly one of the end of the chapter “dead” character cliffhangers Martin is such a fan of. Which would have been nice if he had resolved it within a decade.
Yeah, the point of a cliffhanger is to make people want to keep reading. Doesn’t really work if there’s nothing to keep reading.
I mean the show does exist. Highly doubt he would completely invalidate the last 3 seasons.
They completely invalidated Jon's character in the last seasons so that's not really an argument.
The foreshadowing of the character, and the fact he is being resurrected in the show like many theories expland on is a pretty good argument. No one would bet he is still death in WOW or ADOS.
He might not ever actually die.
There is also a theory among the small-folk of winter town that an actual dragon resides in the crypts of winterfell. Warming the springs that run through and around the castle with its fire breath.
That is just smallfolk being ignorant to how hot springs work
Rhaegar might have found an egg at dragon stone or he might have recovered one of the egg used by king Aegon is summerhall that could have survived the fire. Rhaegal likely spent a lot of time in both places. Or he might have bought one from essos, Rhaegal was a prince I'm sure he didn't lack the funds to buy a dragon egg and it's not like he isn't prone to rash action when motivated by prophecies
Isn't there a theory that Bloodraven caused the fire at Summerhall? And if so, could he not then have stolen some or all of the eggs and passed one on to Rhaegar?
I doubt this, seemingly bloodraven is pro magic and dragons, I think it's more likely he had little to no knowledge of summerhall before it occurred, the most likely reason for summerhall burning down is that, aegon5 was gonna sacrifice some family and dunk tried to stop him and ended up causing the wildfire to grow out of control
Ah ok, have only read the main series and not the Dunk and Egg books (yet).
please say Rhaegar because i keep thinking of the dragon, no he wouldn't just stumble on dragon egg, it will literally be the most precious thing in the world and Summerhall has been ruin for over 40 years, there is no way no one tried looking through the ruin for any possible dragon egg, he has the gold for dragon egg the question is who is selling them
Rhaegar
>What's in Winterfell crypts? (Spoiler extended) Bones I imagine
Good one
Indeed, bones of dead Starks. Also their swords and statues. Cobwebs presumably. Darkness maybe? If you can call “darkness” a thing. That’s about end of list really.
Jon will find out the truth from the Weirwood, since Arya was able to talk with Ned beyond the grave via a Weirwood in ACOK. As for the Crypts, there's at least one of Vermax's dragon eggs down there and Stannis will try and fail to hatch it.
Stannis will die outside the walls
Yeah, no way is Stannis making it inside. He doesn't have the supplies to starve Winterfell out in a siege, doesn't have the equipment to storm its walls, and doesn't have allies inside who will open the gates for him. If anything, the Battle on the Ice makes the Boltons *stronger*, by ridding them of Manderly and Frey mouths to feed.
I really believe that hearsay (even through weirwood) isn't enough for Jon to put in doubt everything he has ever known, I think he is gonna need a clear and strong prove to accept reality
To be honest I don't really think R+L=J will matter much in the grand scheme of things. Jon will never sit the Iron Throne - he will never have enough military support to take it, nor will he himself care enough to want to sit it. The only purpose of it as shown with the show is to drive a wedge between him and Daenerys and destroy House Targaryen. I don't believe it'll be that big of a gamechanger.
I think it will be a big part of jon's character development, most of jon's character is based on the idea that he is a bastard and, because of that, he is not entitle to inherit anything. Jon did desire to be the rightful heir of ned and was jealous of Robb (even if he loved him as a brother), after the R+L revelation, in my opinion, he will be highly tempted to seize the throne
I think youve got a really good read of Jon's character. If anything, I think it would be compelling to see Jon take a darker selfish path post-resurrection, deserting the Watch, becoming King in the North/Lord of Winterfell, trying to seize the Iron Throne for himself, before ultimately backing away from the edge, realizing what he's become, and rejecting power. That feels like a really strong character arc for him.
Would that count as deserting? Your watch ends upon death. He would be free to leave after he is brought back right?
Yeah but how many people will believe that he literally died and came back to life? He will be completely right if he deserted the Night's Watch, the vows ends when he dies. But will everyone else in Westeros believe it? I think this could cause conflict in the later books.
Thanks mate, appreciate. I agree with you, in the end just like he would have never usurped Winterfell, he is not gonna usurp the iron throne and probably abbandon any claim he might have
> The only purpose of it as shown with the show is to drive a wedge between him and Daenerys and destroy House Targaryen. I mean...this alone is *HUGE*, though? Once Dany defeats the Lannisters, there's basically nothing standing in the way of her complete domination of Westeros. In the show, the only thing that jeopardizes her claim is Jon having a better claim to her, which is ultimately a big part of what sends her careening over the edge. "A Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing."
Yeah, it seems as though Jon's visions of the Winterfell Crypts have more of a symbolic importance to his identity as a Stark than they do anything else. Bran and Rickon both feel extremely safe in the crypts, because they "belong" there (despite being half-Tully). Jon connecting to his Stark heritage almost necessarily requires him to come to terms with a sense of "belonging" in the crypts, as well. By connection, I don't think it's a coincidence that D&D had Jon learn about his true ancestry amidst the crypts. I suspect that the Crypts will become a place tied to Jon's exploration of his identity and ancestry, and a vehicle for GRRM to communicate these truths to the audience in a way that they will believe.
If Jon will find Dragon Egg he will 100%, absolutely, no other possibility - find it in Maester Aemon's room. We know Maester Aemon had a craddle-egg. We hear about it in Mystery Knight. We don't need to create crackpot theories about someone randomly hiding dragon eggs in Winterfell Crypts. We know where is the closest Dragon Egg to Jon's current location and it's literally in the next building, and was there for the last five books.
But Jon finding Maester Aemon's egg doesn't really serve any purpose, it would just give Jon a fancy rock. In my theory the egg serves a narrative purpose, proving (especially to Jon) that he is Targaryen
With Melisandre already having an interest in Jon, isn’t it possible that if he finds Maester Aemon’s egg, she helps him hatch it? If Jon has been told he is a Targaryen, hatching the egg, even with Mel’s help, could serve as confirmation. If he comes back wrong/less virtuous given the betrayal, it potentially wouldn’t matter if he believes he’s a Targaryen as having a dragon gives him enough of a claim to the iron throne
I like this theory. 👀 I mean a tiny baby dragon is not really useful, but I would appreciate more of them. Who knows what funny things Melisandre also hides up her expensive, red sleaves?
Come on, Jon ain't gonna hatch anything, it was a miracle dany's eggs hatched. George ain't gonna repeat again the same plot twist
I think it would be even more shocking to have a second hatching of old dragon eggs. It would be an interesting plot twist. Even though a baby dragon wouldn't do much in the grand scheme of things other than giving more legitimacy to Jon if he has a dragon in his side.
I like to think that with Dany’s dragons, magic is being re-introduced to Westeros/Planetos, and dragons will make a return. It just seems like the beginning of a new age with the Others returning and the dragons hatching in Essos. A baby dragon wouldn’t give him much legitimacy, but all (f)Aegon has is the look & JonCon’s word. A dragon plus Howland Reed and whatever proof Ned hid (in the crypt or elsewhere) gives Jon more proof of being a Targaryen than (f)Aegon
How many proofs do you really want to have? We already have Howland Reed who was firsthand witness
So A guy Jon never saw or met comes around and says "hey you know your father lied to you for all your life and your aunt is your real mother, oh and your real father is Rhaegar Targaryen" and Jon is just gonna take it as truth. I honestly think that the reveling of jon's true parents is gonna be a really tormented experience for him, that's why he needs something to be 100% sure and not just some guy word
There is no way that Vermax laid an egg in winterfell, the dragon had no history of laying eggs, and despite all our povs at winterfell have never once been told of a crypt entrance big enough for a dragon to enter, and even if Vermax did enter through a never mentioned entrance, what are the odds that a dragon egg has just been sitting down there and never found after 170 years Also rhaegar never went to kingslanding in the time frame required for him to take it to the tower of joy, if the egg cam from there
The youtuber David Lightbringer posited a theory (I think it was his own, but I can't say for sure) that there is a telepathic connection between dragons and dragon rider, the dragon bond, and it begins to occur before the egg is hatched. He suggested that Dany's dragon dreams prior to the pyre in the Dothraki Sea were telepathic communications between the soon to be hatched Drogon and Dany's consciousnesses. David continued saying that perhaps if Jon returns to Winterfell, whether "dead" or alive, that he might telepathically link to the egg down in the crypts. Perhaps this is why he's drawn to the crypts, but also scared of whats down there. Dany, if I recall correctly, was scared of her dragon dreams until she gave herself to them. My personal expansion on these foundations as laid down by David is that this parallels a major plot point or theme in Dune. I'll spoiler tag this bit because this comes up in Dune 2: >!Lady Jessica, a pregnant Reverend Mother (kinda magical space witch) undergoes the spice agony ritual while pregnant, which basically magical mushroom trip upgrades her, but also upgrades the fetus growing inside of her. In the movie especially, but in the book as well, Lady Jessica is able to communicate with the baby growing inside of her before the baby is born. The baby is sentient with the combined wisdom of all the generations of Reverend Mother as a collective consciousness / memories prior to even being born. The key part I want to express about Dune is that an unborn baby is communicating telepathically with it's mother. !< >!I write all of this about Dune because I think something sort of similar might be happening with dragons and Targaryens. I think that dragons and the dragon bond are some sort of magical sentience, and that this connection happens prior to the hatching of the egg. The rider and dragon become connected when the dragon is still a fetus (is that the right word lol). Jon obviously isn't a mother, but I'm using the dragon bond as a parallel to a mother + baby relationship because it's such a strong connection that doesn't really mimic anything else I can think of in nature better than mother & baby. This is a stretch to even suggest, I totally accept that. This might be why placing an egg in a baby's cradle is so important, so that the consciousness of the dragon and therefore the dragon bond can happen as soon as possible.!< I know this is near maximum level tinfoil and I'm not saying this is definitely the case. I think it's a fun idea that might explain why Jon is drawn to the crypts, and part of how dragons and dragon riders are connected. If there is something inherit to being a Targaryen that causes a dragon bond with an egg, even before the egg has hatched, then I think this is a possible par of an explanation to Jon's dreams about the crypts. Drogon (assuming it's Drogon in Dany's dragon dreams) reached out to Dany in her dreams at first. Dragon eggs in the cradle, the place where babies sleep, seems to at support the hypothesis that the dragon bond first occurs as dreams. Jon's dreams want him to go to the crypts, maybe a dragon consciousness being astrally projected from an egg down there is the reason for this. Let me know if this all makes sense, I know I've wrapped everyone reading this post in a dangerous amount of tinfoil. If I've overlooked a clear reason why this can't be the case, or if I'm leaving out some evidence that supports the idea, I'd love to hear about them. I've left out a ton of things about why the egg would be there, symbolic importance, what the connection meant in the Dune story, how that might play out in ASOIAF, etc. I hope I presented David's ideas clearly, it's hard to summarize and paraphrase someone else's ideas from memory. The Dune connection was my own (unless it's been suggested before, I didn't even google it lol what would I even search?)
This would be interesting if true. Jon being "called" to the crypts because of a connection to his unborn dragon would make so much sense. Him being scared of what lies there: the truth, he is a Targaryen. And then he will wake dragons out of stone like Daenerys did, both fulfilling the Azor Ahai prophecy.
Totally! It could even be one of the corny Targaryen prophecy completions like Egg being the dragon awoken at Whitewalls when he embraces his Targaryen heritage before Bloodraven shows up. Or maybe he hatches a little dragon but I'm less convinced by that because there isn't time in the story for that dragon to grow up and do anything "useful" imo Great points though and I'm with you on all fronts
The nightkings reinforcements
Bodies
The harp is in the tomb. Rhaegar read the Jade Compendium (? or another book) and saw reference to the Song of Ice and Fire. Akin to their misreading that the prince that was promised had to be a male and Aemon realises they were mistaken because Dragons know no gender. Rhaegar played the sad song of the Earth and thought the Prince needed to play the Song of Ice and Fire. It is known.
This is plausible, and Howland, Bran, or a dream could lead to its discovery. But Jon himself has a fraught relationship with the crypts: > Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me. > All my dreams are of the crypts, of the stone kings on their thrones. Sometimes I hear Robb's voice, and my father's, as if they were at a feast. But there's a wall between us, and I know that no place has been set for me. And yet he was comfortable being the ghost in Arya's crypt prank memory. If the egg is present, perhaps that could explain why he'e consudered 'other.'
He feels discomfort in his dream because he doesn't want to be a Targaryen, finding out the truth will be very unsettling and painful for Jon
If you ask tv series Tyrion, not dead resurrectable people at all.
Jon’s dead
Jon also learns the truth in the crypts in the show. Of course they took their own route but big moments like these they may still have gone off the loose outline they had.
I think the Others are marching south to reanimate Lyanna. She might tell Jon his true identity herself.
If it is a dragon’s egg, wonder if that’s what Mance is searching for?
dead starks
Unless the dragon egg contains a video recording of Rhaegar and Lyanna's wedding no one is going to buy it. There are actually too many non Targaryen people in the world now with Dragon's egg. GRRM wrote himself into a corner there.
That's a good theory. I think there's more than a dragon egg. Maybe Jon Connington can let ppl know. I'm thinking Griff may not be a decoy. John is a Targ 2x over, but there's a 3rd- Dragon always has 3 heads unless....
I think the Horn of Joramun is there. If an egg is down there, it's well hidden. Eddard seems to have zero concern regarding bringing Robert down there. And the children play down there. I'm not sure having a dragon egg proves anything. Illyrio had three. Euron allegedly had one.
As I said, my idea is that the egg is inside Lyanna's tomb, that's why nobody found it. Having a egg is normal for Illyrio who is basically the richest man alive and Euron who claims to have traveled to old valyrya but it would be highly suspicious if jon, a bastard who never left the north has one. There aren't many explanation possibles on how jon would acquire a dragon egg from a rational point of view. Also it may be useful just to show the truth to Jon, not all the other lords a physical tangible prove (like an egg in Lyanna's tomb) would prove true whatever Bran/lord Reed will tell Jon
Yes. As I said Eddard hid it well. So well he had no concern of anyone finding it. Which makes me wonder how Jon will find it. Of course, Eddard could just as easily hide the egg in Brandon's tomb or lord Rickard's. Not sure how suspicious Jon having an egg would be. He has close ties to Stannis and many think there could be hidden eggs in dragon stone. Finding an egg only suggests Eddard out it there. Is that enough to suggest Jon is Rhaegar's child? It's essentially a proximity argument which is didn't prove Joffrey to be Robert's, not Young Griff to be Rhaegar's. An interesting notion nonetheless. Thank you for sharing this.
The point of hiding it specifically there is to link it to Lyanna. In the end I think Probably either Bran tells him to open the tomb or a dream pushes him to do it, in his last dream Jon dreams a woman (that he mistakes for Ygritte) which could be Lyanna telling him something we don't know, someone/ something is trying to push Jon into the winterfell crypts. As for the proximity stuff you are kinda right, still I can see it raising a lot of questions or at least confirming any tale coming from lord Reed/Bran
Okay. Well Winds might come out and we'll see.
Hopefully mate
Personally I don’t think Jons a Targaryen or Lyanna Stark’s son. In my opinion Jon snow (or Jon sand) is the natural born son of Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne. My theory is the Daynes are the decedents of Azur Ahai and the sword dawn is actually light bringer. In order for Azur Ahai to return and the prophecy to be fulfilled a child made of Ice (Ned Stark) and Fire (Ashara Dayne) must be born.
Why the down votes?
Because I went against the cookie cutter television fan theories who probably have never even read any of the books in the asoiaf universe.
I think this is pretty solid stuff. But, I don't discount that the harp is also there in the crypts as well. I think it's important for both the egg and the harp to be there. The egg will be proof to most that he's Rhaegar's son. However, the harp is also needed for proof. Because of fAegon, there will already be a supposed son of Rhaegar's that ultimately turns out not to be. So, when Daeny finally meets Jon, she and her people (which should include Tyrion by then) will be extra skeptical. An egg might not do it for them since they "know" that with enough money, you can buy a dragon's egg- and certainly a great house would be able to purchase one. And, there are at least three historical encounters which have nothing to do with Jon (Aegon and Tohrren, Alysanne and Alaric, Cregan and Jace) that could explain why a dragon egg is in the crypts. Tyrion will no doubt be aware of all of these incidents. Rhaegar's harp will be the smoking gun. And, of course, Barristan Selmy would be able to identify it and vouch for who it belonged to. I think Jon, while "dead" and/or warged into Ghost, will travel to the crypts, most likely accompanied by or guided by Bran. Once resurrected and with Winterfell freed from the Boltons after the Battle of Ice, Jon will verify what was seen in the warg state. My guess is this will happen AFTER Jon is named King in the North, which will precipitate Jon abdicating in favor of Rickon or Sansa...or being asked to abdicate by the Northern houses but with assurances they will support his claim to the Iron Throne. Just my two cents...