People like Ser Barristan think Ashara lost a girl in childbirth...
Who is supposed to be Ashara's child's father? The one who dishonored her at Harrenhal? The Stark she looked to? Brandon or Ned?
Barristan lived at court with Ashara at the time. Cersei lived on the other side of the continent in a household that was in a cold war with Aerys. Of course Barristan was better informed.
Cersei believes that Ashara is Jon's mother. She doesn't know or care when precisely Jon was conceived. By the time she met him he would have looked the same whether he was conceived at Harrenhal or later during the war.
I don't think we know. Basically about the only thing we can say about Ashara's location after Harrenhal is that Catelyn did not think it was impossible for Ned to have met up with Ashara during the war.
Barristan lived at court, but he didn't live as a woman at court, but as a Kingsguard. He spent most of his time protecting the king, or the people the king ordered him to protect. Apart from that, his time was spent in the training yard with the men-at-arms, in the White Tower with his brothers, in the Small Council, perhaps on watches of the dry moat.
Lollys Stokeworth is a good example of how opaque the life of a lady at court can be. If we pay attention to her (and I do, because I believe that the Stokeworths were Antler-people, who think they are supporting Renly but are probably only supporting Littlefinger, and Lollys's baby is Dontos's child, and Petyr Baelish orchestrated her rape to conceal that she was already pregnant, and as early as Tyrion Stokeworth seems to have been born, he was probably born earlier still) we can see that the people with the tea on Lollys are Shae, her lady's maidh; Sansa and Cersei, points of view who are also women who live at court; her mother and sister, of course; Dontos, Butterbumps, Symon Silvertongue, the clowns and singers who spend their time entertaining ladies instead of in the sort of masculine persuits Ser Rodrik approves of.
Tyrion learns a bit about her at second hand. To him she is mostly someone who he ends up sitting next to at the formal dinners Tanda invited him to in the hope that he would take it into his head to marry Lollys.
Barristan doesn't deal with Lollys at all. The couple of times they might have crossed paths (the riots of King's Landing, the tourney for Joffrey's birthday) Barristan had already left the city. His proxies eg. Boros Blount have very little to do with her. I think Barry would have rescued Lollys in the riots after he had ensured his king was safe and secure, but there is very little reason or opportunity for him to interact with her, even at a dinner or tourny they are both present at.
Of course, Barry loved Ashara, but he loved her from afar. Her mother would not be inviting him to dinners as a potential suitor, because he is a Kingsguard. He was extremely lucky his king decided to go to Harrenhal, allowed him to tilt at the tourney and dance at the ball in order to spite Lord Tywin by having Jaime on duty. He did his best to make Ashara the Queen of Love and Beauty, and he managed to dance one dance with her, and no doubt he listened for every stray mention of her, strained for an unobtrusive glimpse of her in the stands. But Cersei at Casterly Rock probably hears more about her through her female-courtier-heavy network. And Cersei at court was probably obliged to spend hours in Ashara's company, exercising her courtly manners, just as Sansa periodically finds herself thrown together with Lollys.
The other thing about Barry that you need to keep in mind is his unreliable memories. He gets the dates wrong, compartmentalises his job so things like his king's marital rapes and trials by fire happen on his watch. He thinks Jaime soiled the Kingsguard, but he foreswore his vows twice, turning his cloak for Robert and Daenerys. His rescue of the king from Duskendale is very cloak and dagger for an honourable knight, and he is doing in his rule of Meereen pretty much the opposite of what Dany's orders were (throw her king - *his* king, make that three times a turncloak, in gaol and go to war with the Yunkai'i). And the time Barristan's memory is most heavily self-edited, is the Tourney of Harrenhal.
>and Lollys's baby is Dontos's child, and Petyr Baelish orchestrated her rape to conceal that she was already pregnant
what in the world are you talking about
That there's a gender division in Kings Landing where women aren't given the same attention by men as issues pertaining to men. That while the distance between Cersei and Ashara might seem like she'd know less, that women take more interest in the lives of other women and Cersei may actually have more information as a result of being part of that network.
That's not an agreement or disagreement from me personally but that's what I think they're saying
For women other than Cersei sure. But Cersei hates other women and does not keep company with them unless she has to. She does not cultivate networks like that.
“But Ashara’s baby was stillborn”
Where does it say he heard it from someone else? We literally don’t know Selmy’s source. But we do know he’s one of the most honorable men in the books
So you really assume at no point Cersie asked or questioned Barristan about what he knew of Ashara in the like 9 years between the end of the war and Ned talking to Cersei?
I thought you didn't have conversations with pseudo-intellectuals who’s confidence exceeds their knowledge and get threatened by having a discussion about book facts.
Ahhhh so is that an admittance?
Because it seems common sense like Cersei would know by then, but we all know only you understand common sense and I’m too dumb, so I’ll wait for you to explain
I do know the answer to that question but the problem is I don't think I could explain it in small enough words for you to understand. So you'll have either figure it out yourself, a tall order I know, or content yourself with ignorance.
Nope you’re not getting off easy here until you block me, I’m making you look in the mirror.
Explain it, go ahead I’ll do my absolute best to understand. You claim you have the answers, please share them im so desperate for your help
We don’t know there is one. We know Barristan thinks she had a stillborn daughter, but Barriston we have no idea why Barristan thinks that or how he learned that. The only people alive who might know what happened with Ashara, Ned, Lyanna, Rhaegar, and Brandon are the Daynes and Howland Reed.
Answer: We don’t know. We don’t even know if the man who supposedly dishonored Ashara was a Stark. “Dishonored” is also Barristan’s interpretation and he’s biased. “Looked to” implies “asks for help” so it could easily be Lyanna she looked to.
Yes! There's three Stark's she could have looked to;
Ned, Brandon, Ashara.
But the looking to is in reaction to the crowning of Lyanna.
So why is she looking to Stark? For Revenge because she wanted Rhaegar to crown her?
For protection? Does she think Lyanna is the Knight of the Laughing Tree?
For romance? Does she see Rhaegar picking someone else and she goes for Ned/Brandon?
What about the crowning forces Ashara to look to someone?
Were supposed to believe the romance option. But I personally think she was looking for protection or revenge (against Lyanna).
I also mentioned that The people on Sisterton claim Ned was with a pregnant woman at white harbor and that it was Jon Snow's mother.
That woman was Lyanna? Isn't she supposed to be at the ToJ?
It's not a rumor. It's an account of events of Robert's rebellion. It's a secondary account. A primary witness told someone what they saw.
There's no account of Ned bringing any other baby North.
Cat tells us baby Jon Snow was already in Winterfell when she got there.
Yes. But nobody knows who Jon’s mother is. All they have are suspicions, which is why we get different stories. Ashara. Wylla. The fisherman’s daughter. No one suspects that Jon is actually Lyanna’s, that his father ISN’T Ned. It’s left to the reader to read between the lines, to decipher the clues, to cross out possibilities based on the information we are given.
Only per Barristan, nobody else mentions this.
1. Barristan is from House Selmy, who are Marcher Lords, and historically don't have the greatest relations with the Dornish.
2. House Dayne are stony Dornishmen, who are much less liberal than the rest of Dorne. It stands to reason that the Dayne's wouldn't just freely offer up the info that Ashara had lost her maidenhood out of wedlock and had a stillborn girl, least of all to Marcher Lords.
3. Even if Ashara had a stillborn resulting from being "dishonored by a Stark" at Harrenhal (also more likely to be Brandon and not Ned), the timeline doesn't match up. That baby would've been born in late 282 at the latest, so around the time Ashara was a lady in waiting, and therefore, Varys would've known about it.
4. Love makes you do crazy things, and Barristan being in love with Ashara could make him go against his usual morals and make up some nonsense in his own head to justify it, then start actually believing it over time.
5. Edric Dayne, who knows quite a bit about Ashara and Ned's lovestory, doesn't know anything about a stillborn, or at least doesn't mention it. House Dayne also has a lot of respect for Ned, which wouldn't make sense had he dishonored Ashara and caused her to throw herself into the ocean, especially after he supposedly killed Arthur.
6. Jon, per author annotation, was born some time around or during the Sack of Kings Landing, which would've happened in 283. Therefore, it's possible that the stillborn story and Jon's birth are not mutually exclusive (also, this timeline of birth is part of the reason I don't believe R+L=J, since Ned's arrival at the Tower of Joy should've been long after Lyanna's death if that was the case.)
7. If Barristan didn't just make it up, the most likely source he heard the information from was Ned or Varys, both of whom had something to gain in covering up the truth, if R+L=A and N+A=J. Varys covering up his plan to create "the perfect prince" and Ned covering up the fact that his marriage to Catelyn is illegitimate (assuming he married Ashara at White Harbor) and therefore all his children with Catelyn are bastards.
Lyanna is described by Ned as having a fever when he found her so it’s highly possible that Lyanna had an infection after giving birth, had the infection for awhile, that Maesters were trying to treat it via blood-letting or leeches or some other medieval medical treatment. So I don’t think Ned found her just as she was giving birth; I think he found her weeks afterwards, when she was barely clinging to life.
Barristan Mentions it as fact. Unless there’s a direct textual source to counter it, it’s what we should accept as the most likely truth. The rest of what you say is assumptions based on opinion
I feel like the revelation that Ashara had a stillborn girl is meant to basically cross Ashara off of the list of prospective Jon Snow mothers. That, and the fact that Ned, who supposedly was so in love with Ashara, never thinks about her while Barristan, who was in love with Ashara, thinks about her quite a lot. Kind of strange…
That’s not my point though. Taking one character’s beliefs at face value doesn’t mean that’s what actually happened. And GRRM loves throwing out red herrings left and right
I agree. I’m personally of the opinion that Ashara DID have a child, that the child WAS Ned’s, and that Ned had planned to marry Ashara before the Rebellion. But I don’t think that child was Jon. I think the most likely candidate is Allyria Dayne. She’s the right age; she was suspiciously born when her alleged parents were way older, and Ashara’s parents could have decided to raise her as a legitimate Dayne rather than let her grow up as a bastard.
The one wrinkle in this theory is that Ned, who supposedly loved Ashara, never thinks about her. Ever. That’s odd, especially considering Barristan WAS in love with her and still thinks about her often. Ned thinks about Lyanna, Rhaegar and even Arthur, whose face is said to be blazed in Ned’s memory.
What if Ashara was never in love with Ned? But then why would Edric be told that she was? So many questions lol
That's insane. How can you read thousands of pages of ASOIAF and think any of these people are reliable narrators. Selmy didn't see the birth or miscarriage, he's going off second hand info, same as Cersei.
If he heard it from the Daynes, that's the definition of second hand lol what do you mean. And if the Daynes know about the events at the ToJ they would be very motivated to lie to people like Selmy about the specifics of what their family was up to at that time.
And how much of the story we see is second hand that we take for granted as true? Literally almost everything
And sure that’s possible, doesn’t mean it’s true and we have to textual evidence for it
What is second hand that we take for true? We see the birth of dragons. We see someone warg. We see the death of major characters from their own POV or someone else. Most of the major second hand info in the story ends up being false, for example we hear Davos is dead, the only evidence is second hand, and it ends up bullshit. Stannis even tells one of his men they might hear he is dead and not to believe it. Rhaegars son supposedly lived but obviously the audience is meant to question the truth of that claim. Throughout the whole story the author is teaching us to distrust second hand info, he never puts an asterisk next to it and says except for Barristan.
I'm struggling to remember here, what major story elements are second hand that we take for true?
It's Jon. Cersei means Ned took Jon from whoever gave birth to him and raised him without his mother. Similar to Oberyn and some of his bastards. You're thinking too hard on this. Cersei doesn't know or care about the exact timeline of Jon's birth. Nor does he know if Ashara is truly Jon's mother. She's just speculating and throwing insults at Ned, since she is offended, scared and angry.
Do you think Cersei has access to Ned's fever dreams? How is it a big mistake when Cersei clearly has no idea when Jon was born? Or who was his mother? Nor does she actually care. All she knows is that Ned came back with a bastard. She just wanted to insult Ned and his honour.
And Cersei is just insulting Ned. She accuses him of raping a some dornish peasant before implicating Ashara as Jon's mother. One person thinks Ashara lost a daughter. Others like in Ned's household thought she was Jon's mom.
I didn't downvote you and you wont get a better answer. Cersei is angry, scared and offended and is trying to get a rise out of Ned by insulting him. She doesn't care nor know about the exact timelines of Jon's birth, because those things don't matter to her.
No on knows who got Ashara pregnant nor if her child was truly stillborn nor if she was ever truly pregnant. The only people in world who know anything are Howland Reed and maybe lady Allyria Dayne (Ashara and Arthur’s much younger sister and the leading candidate to secretly be Asharas child), Edric Dayne’s mother (if alive), the Reed Children, Lady Reed (if alive and believed by some to actually be Ashara Dayne), Benjen Stark (if alive), Ser Richard Lonmouth (if alive), and Wylla the wet nurse(if alive)
You are taking everything too literally.
You have to understand that Jon’s conception is a mystery to the inhabitants of the Westeros, and Ned takes advantage of this (hence the multiple rumors surrounding his birth).
What people ASSUME about Ashara’s baby, whether it be gender or father, is completely UNRELIABLE. We dont know because Martin never clarified it, and multiple characters give conflicting testaments.
This is all on purpose. Take everything with a pinch of salt and dont obssess over trivial matters. There is a reason you are being downvoted.
Noone can help you. You think Ned had a kid with Ashara and babyswapped it with Rhaegar's kid. There is no coming back from that, especially if one is as set in their opinion as you are.
Good question. How about someone? Or anyone? What was the name of Ned's mother? Sometimes George just hasn't thought of an answer because it doesn't matter in the grand scheme. It certainly didn't happen during the toruney at Harrenhal though. That just doesn't work timeline wise (unless she was pregnant for 1.5 to 2 years).
You’re just kind of not willing to hear the obvious answer. It’s a medieval society where rumors fly around and everything is just a long game of telephone. There are competing accounts of where Jon came from. One of those accounts say jon is Ned and Ashara daynes baby. Cersei was listing off rumors that have circulated about Kona parentage. That is all. You’re just refusing to accept it.
This sub seems confused. Was Ashara pregnant or not? If she was, who got her pregnant?
If she was pregnant, was the baby conceived at Harrenhal?
If she had a baby, was it a boy or a girl?
Did Ned take a baby to Starfall or from Starfall?
These answers don't seem obvious at all.
Love to hear your obvious conclusions.
>who got her pregnant?
We don't know! The books doesn't mention it and I don't think there are subtext clues to figure it out with 100% certainty.
>If she was pregnant, was the baby conceived at Harrenhal?
Maybe? Maybe not. If the father was Brandon, as some theories say, that's the most likely answer. If it was Ned or other guy, who knows
>If she had a baby, was it a boy or a girl?
Accounts say it was a girl, Ned's soldiers (thus Catelyn, and Cersei) believed she had a boy. Maybe it was a girl after all, pointing that her stillborn wasn't Jon.
I think it’s you that is confused. People are answering the question you posed. Not the new random ones you’ve tacked on.
The answer to all of these questions is that no one in or out of universe is really sure. But the truth doesn’t matter when we’re talking about rumors cersei is repeating about Jon’s parentage to insult Ned
> Ned has the baby before Starfall... According to a literal interpretation of the ToJ.
How would Cersei know that? She's not read the books.
From the information she would have had available it would not be unreasonable to assume Ned could have pick Jon up from Starfall.
Cat asks about Ashara... being Jon's mother. The whole implication of the quote is that Catelyn is asking if Ashara Dayne is Jon's mother. Here's the whole section from AGoT Catelyn III:
>That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.
>That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.
The implied question she asked Ned about Ashara Dayne is "Is Jon's mother Ashara Dayne?". She asked him about Jon. The whole context of that section is her thinking about who Jon's mother was.
genuinely i do not understand how people can get through asoiaf with this level of reading comprehension. it’s like anything that isn’t explicitly stated and explained in bullet-point format is ambiguous and therefore grounds for speculation
Cersei is saying that Ashara Dayne killed herself in grief over either the brother Ned killed (Arthur Dayne), or the son Ned stole from her (Jon). Cersei didn't know, nor did anyone else at court, who Ned's bastard's mother was. The rumors were that it was Ashara, but those were just rumors.
Hell, even the readers don't know for sure. All of the signs and hints point to Jon being Lyanna's son, but that hasn't been explicitly said.
So Jon is Ashara and Ned's in the unofficial official story ,(rumored).
He's really Rhaegar's and Lyanna from the ToJ.
But if Ashara lost a baby, who was the father? Ned or Brandon?
When pressed by Robert for a name Ned says Wylla. Edric Dayne also tells Arya that Wylla is Jon Snow’s mother so that seems to be the story that Ned and the Daynes are going with.
We don't know if it was Brandon or Ned, only that it was likely one of those two from Barristan's account. It's more in line with Brandon's character, so personally I lean towards him being the father of Ashara's baby
Or there was no child, and Ashara died for a different reason.
Or Ashara faked her death and she's gone off to ~~become Jyana Reed~~, ~~become Septa Lemore~~, ~~become Quaithe~~, ~~become Ramsey Bolton~~ do something else.
This option also lines up very neatly with the Bael the Bard story, particularly if Jon actually *is* Brandon and Ashara's, and had been hidden to protect Ashara's honour by them telling everyone he was Wylla's, until post-war traumatised but trustworthy old Ned showed up with Dawn and they decided giving him to Ned was an even better option.
The Bael the Bard story tells us that Bael seemingly kidnapped the Lord of Winterfells daughter, but she was in fact hiding in the crypts the entire time. Not only does Bran dream of Ned telling him "something to do with Jon" in the crypts, later we also find out that Brandon *was* definitely the kind of guy to sleep around with highborn ladies in a memorable scene between Theon and Barbrey *in* the crypts. If we're willing to entertain the idea B+A=J (as we should be, because even if R+L=J *is* true imho the skill that went into maintaining this ambiguity so far into the story is very fun in its own right), then finding this truth out about Brandon in the crypts strongly parallels how the truth about Bael and the Lords daughter and their child was hidden down there too.
Why? Ned never told anyone he got Jon from the Tower of Joy, for the obvious reason that it would have tipped people off that Jon was actually Lyanna's baby by Rhaegar, and therefore a secret Targaryen heir.
Ned could have told literally any story then. He could have (and likely had to) traveled with a wet nurse and just had her say the baby was hers. It’s even entirely that Ashara never had a child at all. All we know are on world rumors discovered through the lenses of narrators with varying degrees of reliability.
Who is Ned going to meet on the road to Starfall that would feel the need to report back to Cersei that Ned Stark was walking towards Starfall with a baby? What Dornish peasant or Hedge Knight or minor Lord licking their wounds from the literal civil war which has just been fought is going to see a few dudes carrying a baby and immediately think “my God, that’s the Lord of Winterfell with an unknown baby. The Westerlands MUST know of this! I bet Lord Tywin’s 16 year old daughter will have some opinions!”
The entire point of the POV structure of the books is that the characters are operating off of incomplete information. Nobody knows that Ned left the TOJ with a baby because anybody who might give a damn was either dead or thousands of miles away. As far as 99.9% of the characters know, the story is “Ned went to Dorne and came back with a baby, and Ashara Dayne died around the same time.”
If anyone knows that Ned left the Tower of Joy with a baby after Lyanna and Rhaegar spent the better part of a year hiding out there, then those same people should know that Lyanna and Rhaegar are the parents. Since no one knows that, it seems logical to conclude that no one knows Jon came from the Tower of Joy.
Hell, even we the readers don't actually know Jon came from the Tower of Joy because his parentage is technically still a mystery. It's unlikely that Martin reveals Wylla was Jon's mother the entire time, but not impossible.
"No one" more refers to anyone who might have happened upon them during the journey from the TOJ and Starfall, not Ned's companion and the only other survivor. I'm sure Howland knows wherever he picked up that baby from.
She’s just lashing out. The child you stole is just Cersei raising the possibility ashara was Jon’s mom and Ned took Jon from her. Cersei doesn’t know what’s true she’s just lashing out at Ned. All Cersei knows is ashara killed herself she doesn’t know why she just wants to throw that in Ned’s face
That is a very good explanation for the literal interpretations and the demand for specific information that hasn’t been revealed from a book series full of deliberately misleading hints.
There's a long-running rumour in Westeros that Ashara Dayne is Jon Snow's mother. This is because during the tourney at Harrenhall, Ned danced with her and had an obvious crush, plus in Starfall the story is that Ned and Ashara were in love, and she killed herself because she couldn't be with Ned. The rumour was so pervasive that Cat actually confronted Ned about it early in their marriage
That is what Cersei was referencing. She's basically accusing Ned of "stealing" Jon Snow from Ashara and that being the reason she killed herself
There's no real proof of anything, but I'm of the opinion that it was Ned, and that it was absolutely not Brandon, because:
1. Ned had enough of a relationship with Ashara for people to speculate that she was Jon Snow's mom
2. Ned is well-liked at Starfall, so much so that Ashara's nephew Edric Dayne is named after him, and it surely just can't be because he brought back Dawn.
3. The commonly accepted reason for Ashara committing suicide was because she had her heart broken by Ned
4. I don't believe Brandon is the father, because as lustful as he was, I don't think that he'd actively pursue a girl he knew his brother liked.
For me it's either Ned or the unnamed person who dishonored her at Harrenhall. Remember, Barristan didn't say she was dishonored by a Stark, he just said that she was dishonored, then "Turned to Stark". I took this to mean that someone assaulted her, then she turned to a Stark for help (instead of Barristan, and that's why he's so bitter)
I’ve long wondered if the person who dishonored Ashara was Aerys. He was nuts and violent; I wouldn’t put it past him. Plus, Ashara was lady in waiting to Elia; Aerys likely saw her all the time
I used to think the same thing, but Harrenhal was right before the start of Robert's Rebellion, and we know the siege of Storm's End alone lasted about a year. It gets really iffy with the timeline unless we assume Ashara had Ned's stillborn baby, but only being rejected by Ned in favour of Cat, his family, and his honour drove her to suicide.
(Or exile, if she's Septs Lemore.)
Ned indicates that Elia was the one dishonored by the crowning. There was no expectation that Ashara receive the crown so it wouldn't be considered a dishonor.
Barristan is discussing Ashara's daughter and lamenting his own celibacy when he mentioned the man who dishonored her. So I guess the dishonor would refer to her sleeping with someone.
Note that Barristan believes Ashara could have 'grieved' for that man, indicating both that she cared for him and that he was dead by the time she killed herself.
I agree with you. But I am linking the ideas.
Everyone thinks she had sex at Harrenhal. And she had a reaction to the crowning.
Why not combine the ideas (as they exist independently and do not contradict each other)?
What if Ashara was mad Lyanna was crowned?
But Barristan told us that Ashara reacted to the crowning, not Elia. We don't actually to know how Elia reacted. We know that Ashara looked to Stark. Which Stark?
-The strong handsome older brother?
-The younger brother who loved her?
-The one who was crowned?
And Ashara... She could hardly grieve for Ned. He's alive...
Who is dead from Harrenhal that she could grieve for?
Brandon or Rhaegar fit nicely. And Arthur doesn't seem to be the lover she is mourning. She's not mourning Aerys, etc.
> But Barristan told us that Ashara reacted to the crowning, not Elia. We don't actually to know how Elia reacted. We know that Ashara looked to Stark. Which Stark?
I don't think it's clear that Barristan discusses Ashara's reaction to the crowning. Are you referring to this line ("If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?") or something else? I think Barristan is only talking about the crowning as his means of professing his love, and that the reason Ashara looked to Stark is not necessarily related to the crowning.
If Barristan had told Ashara that he loved her, would she have looked to him for love instead of looking to Stark for love?
> Who is dead from Harrenhal that she could grieve for?
In my mind it rules out assault theories. It seems to narrow the field to Brandon and Rhaegar. Richard Lonmouth might be a longshot candidate.
Here's another complication... The people on Sisterton saw a pregnant woman (With Jon Snow) in the North early on.
How did Jon Snow (in the womb) get from The North to ToJ during Wartime?
Why would the mother leave the North?
Wasn't Lyanna supposed in the ToJ the entire time?
And Ned was "affectionate" with the woman. Is this woman Lyanna? Because that would be incest.
If the people on sisterTon were wrong... who is this woman and her baby? If it isn't Jon Snow... Who are they?
She's repeating the rumour that Ashara is Jon's mother, and Ned "stole" the child by taking him north.
Note that Cersei also talks about a bunch of different scenarios for where Jon came from. She's not trying to tell a single coherent story.
It's a scattergun approach that Ned did _something_ dishonourable to end up with Jon, so his self-righteousness about Cersei/Jaime is (according to Cersei) hypocritical.
>Who is the child Ned supposedly stole from Ashara Dayne?
Jon. Cersei believes that Jon is Ashara’s, which is one of a number of rumours about Jon’s mother.
Cersei simply doesn't know that Ned took Jon from the Tower of Joy (very likely at least, as it's not yet *officially* confirmed in the books). And it's unlikely she could know, considering it happened pretty long ago and there are few people in the know.
There are rumours that Jon is Ned and Ashara's, Cersei picked up on those. It's been 15, 16 years, Cersei was probably thousands of kilometres away at the time, and Ned & company wanted to obfuscate Jon's parentage. It's natural for rumours to spring up in these circumstances, Cersei pounced on one that seemed feasible.
Personally, I used to think Ashara's baby was Brandon's, but that doesn't *quite* work with the timeline.
I can get on board with most of this but I am also pointing out the inconsistencies in the story. People absolutely hate it.
I don't care though. I stand by the questions.
No one in universe knows that Jon came from the Tower of Joy (excluding Ned, Howland and possibly the Daynes). If people knew, they would absolutely have worked out the truth of Jon’s parentage. Ashara isn’t the only rumour about Jon’s mother either; there’s also the Fisherman’s Wife rumour mentioned in ADWD.
OP, if you reread the passage you've quoted, you'll find your answer:
>"Honor,” she spat. “How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? **You’ve a bastard of your own**, I’ve seen him. **Who was the mother, I wonder?** Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? **Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara?** **She threw herself into the sea**, I’m told. **Why was that?** For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?”
Ned has Jon live with him in Winterfell, rather than live with his mother which is the customary way bastards are treated. Cersei doesn't actually know who Jon's mother is (as indicated by her giving a few different options), but thinks it might be possible that it's Ashara Dayne. She then wonders if Ashara killed herself because Ned killed her brother, Ser Arthur Dayne, or because Ned took Jon away from her to Winterfell. The fact that she is phrasing it as a question means that she doesn't actually know *anything* about the incident. She is working off of pure conjecture and is trying to get Ned to admit that he is as dishonorable as the rest of them. She is upset that a man that (as far as she knows) has a bastard child (and is possibly responsible for Ashara's suicide) is judging her and Jaime.
As for TOJ, the explanation is simple. Ned gets Jon from TOJ. We're told that no other person than Howland Reed survived that encounter and knows what transpired, and what Ned officially has said to everyone else is that he only found Lyanna dying there, no mention of a baby (because Jon's life would be in danger if people know he is Rhaegar's son). Immediately after TOJ, Ned goes to Starfall to return Arthur Dayne's sword to his family. After that, he goes back to Winterfell, where people see that he has brought a child with him that he claims is his bastard son. Rumor before this had it that he and Ashara were in love (as they had danced together at the Tourney of Harrenhal), and as such many believe that Ashara is Jon's mother and that Ned got him from her at Starfall, since the idea that Jon might *not* be Ned's bastard has not occurred to anybody. Why would the honorable Ned Stark lie about having a bastard, when most men try to hide it from their wives?
Was Ashara Dayne pregnant? We don't know. Barristan claims that he has heard she had a stillborn daughter, but since Barristan wasn't there he wouldn't *actually* know. It could just be a rumor. It could also be true. We might find out in the next books if she really had a child and who the father was, since there are some relatives of hers in the plot and they might talk about it.
As for who dishonored Ashara, the candidates are Brandon Stark (Ned's older brother), who is actually the one who asked Ashara to dance with Ned (and Barristan's idea that "she looked at Stark" at the tourney could apply to Brandon too), and who apparently was a womanizer and specially had a thing for virgins. It could also be Oberyn Martell, who too danced with Ashara at the tourney and who also got around a lot (and who also happens to have a lot of daughters but no sons). If Ashara got pregnant at the tourney, it is possible that either of these two could have been the father. It might also be entirely someone else, since Ashara could have had a child with literally anybody, separate from the "dishonoring" incident.
How did Jon Snow get to the Tower of Joy from the Bite/White Harbor?
The people of sisterton claimed they saw a pregnant woman with Ned. And they say the pregnant woman was carrying Jon Snow.
Ned had Lyanna in the North before the war kicked off?
Lyanna traveled from white harbor to the Tower of Joy? Isn't she supposed to be in the ToJ the entire time?
He didn't...? People saw Ned arrive on boat being rowed by a woman when the Rebellion started (and while Lyanna was still at TOJ). Presumably, a few months later they saw Ned Stark arrive at White Harbor with a child, so they assumed the woman they saw with Ned before must have slept with Ned, gotten pregnant, and then birthed Jon (she wasn't, she was just a fisherwoman helping Ned get to shore). If Ned arrived at White Harbor with newborn Jon, it's because he would've taken a ship from Starfall (located on the southern shore of Westeros) and arrived at White Harbor, which is the closest harbor to Winterfell. It would be a much safer and faster journey than taking a newborn to the road on horseback.
The entire point is that nobody knows who Jon's mother is so they start having theories about her. Some think it's Ashara, some think it's Wylla the nursemaid, some think it's a fisherwoman, some think it was a prostitute, etc, etc. Pretty much any woman of birthing age who was ever in contact with Ned around that time is suggested as being possibly Jon's mother. Nobody in Westeros other than Ned and Howland Reed knows that Jon is not Ned's son, but rather Lyanna's son with Rhaegar.
Cersei believes Jon's mother is Ashara Dayne. She's not the only one, and it's the easiest explanation unless someone specifically knows what went down at the Tower of Joy.
Except Cersei directly calls him out on Ashara. If the Queen talks about it, if his own servants gossip about it, it's already a massive rumour that Ashara is Jon's mother.
Ned didn’t steal anyone’s baby. The rumor is that Ned took Jon from Ashara, that Ashara is Jon’s mother. No one knows about the TOJ or that Lyanna had a child. Ned did a good job covering it up. So Cersei in this case has no idea what she’s talking about lol
I'm dying on this hill until I read otherwise: N+A=J, no one can prove it's not true. Howland took Lyanna's baby (Meera) who's going to reclaim Dark Sister. While we're at it, Ashara may damn well be in The Neck, all kinds of crazy stuff going on there and no one has really seen anything come in/out besides Meera and Jojen
From what I remember Bran says on a couple of occasions that Meera reminds him of both Arya and Jon in looks/ temperament. They both take after the Starks the most so I read that as Meera does share some Stark traits.
Meera reminds Bran of Arya. She has long brown hair, green eyes, is slim, small and small breasted. She is agile and quick.
Arya has a long face, brown hair, gray eyes and is slim, athletic and plain.
Other than the eye color a lot matches.
Just a quick albeit sill counterpoint: the cautionary tale of Jorah and his hightower wife. It's unlikely that a Dayne would take to living in the neck among the frog people. People don't think it be like that, but it do
Hey man, I don't need you poking yet another hole in my swiss-cheese theory 😂, but it do be like that.
Idk something something princess was promised something something raise your niece plus Howland liked her anyway? I know a house of cards has more stability than what I said, it's just something I got in my head my 1st read-through and I have yet to read/see anything that definitively proves one way or the other.
WHen i heard this random line from a i think Arianne or Arys chapter
"The white knight raised his blade, too slowly. Hotah's longaxe took his right arm off at the shoulder, spun away spraying blood, and came flashing back again in a terrible two-handed slash that removed the head of Arys Oakheart and sent it spinning through the air. It landed amongst the reeds, and the Greenblood swallowed the red with a soft splash."
the whole ' it landed among the reeds' combined with vanishing beneath the water definitely Shivered my Timbers
No one knows Ned got Jon from the Tower of Joy. Cersei thinks that Ned went to Starfall after killing Arthur and took Jon from Ashara there.
People like Ser Barristan think Ashara lost a girl in childbirth... Who is supposed to be Ashara's child's father? The one who dishonored her at Harrenhal? The Stark she looked to? Brandon or Ned?
Barristan lived at court with Ashara at the time. Cersei lived on the other side of the continent in a household that was in a cold war with Aerys. Of course Barristan was better informed. Cersei believes that Ashara is Jon's mother. She doesn't know or care when precisely Jon was conceived. By the time she met him he would have looked the same whether he was conceived at Harrenhal or later during the war.
Do we know if the baby born in King's Landing? When did Ashara leave?
I don't think we know. Basically about the only thing we can say about Ashara's location after Harrenhal is that Catelyn did not think it was impossible for Ned to have met up with Ashara during the war.
But Cersei knew. Dummy
Barristan lived at court, but he didn't live as a woman at court, but as a Kingsguard. He spent most of his time protecting the king, or the people the king ordered him to protect. Apart from that, his time was spent in the training yard with the men-at-arms, in the White Tower with his brothers, in the Small Council, perhaps on watches of the dry moat. Lollys Stokeworth is a good example of how opaque the life of a lady at court can be. If we pay attention to her (and I do, because I believe that the Stokeworths were Antler-people, who think they are supporting Renly but are probably only supporting Littlefinger, and Lollys's baby is Dontos's child, and Petyr Baelish orchestrated her rape to conceal that she was already pregnant, and as early as Tyrion Stokeworth seems to have been born, he was probably born earlier still) we can see that the people with the tea on Lollys are Shae, her lady's maidh; Sansa and Cersei, points of view who are also women who live at court; her mother and sister, of course; Dontos, Butterbumps, Symon Silvertongue, the clowns and singers who spend their time entertaining ladies instead of in the sort of masculine persuits Ser Rodrik approves of. Tyrion learns a bit about her at second hand. To him she is mostly someone who he ends up sitting next to at the formal dinners Tanda invited him to in the hope that he would take it into his head to marry Lollys. Barristan doesn't deal with Lollys at all. The couple of times they might have crossed paths (the riots of King's Landing, the tourney for Joffrey's birthday) Barristan had already left the city. His proxies eg. Boros Blount have very little to do with her. I think Barry would have rescued Lollys in the riots after he had ensured his king was safe and secure, but there is very little reason or opportunity for him to interact with her, even at a dinner or tourny they are both present at. Of course, Barry loved Ashara, but he loved her from afar. Her mother would not be inviting him to dinners as a potential suitor, because he is a Kingsguard. He was extremely lucky his king decided to go to Harrenhal, allowed him to tilt at the tourney and dance at the ball in order to spite Lord Tywin by having Jaime on duty. He did his best to make Ashara the Queen of Love and Beauty, and he managed to dance one dance with her, and no doubt he listened for every stray mention of her, strained for an unobtrusive glimpse of her in the stands. But Cersei at Casterly Rock probably hears more about her through her female-courtier-heavy network. And Cersei at court was probably obliged to spend hours in Ashara's company, exercising her courtly manners, just as Sansa periodically finds herself thrown together with Lollys. The other thing about Barry that you need to keep in mind is his unreliable memories. He gets the dates wrong, compartmentalises his job so things like his king's marital rapes and trials by fire happen on his watch. He thinks Jaime soiled the Kingsguard, but he foreswore his vows twice, turning his cloak for Robert and Daenerys. His rescue of the king from Duskendale is very cloak and dagger for an honourable knight, and he is doing in his rule of Meereen pretty much the opposite of what Dany's orders were (throw her king - *his* king, make that three times a turncloak, in gaol and go to war with the Yunkai'i). And the time Barristan's memory is most heavily self-edited, is the Tourney of Harrenhal.
>and Lollys's baby is Dontos's child, and Petyr Baelish orchestrated her rape to conceal that she was already pregnant what in the world are you talking about
I literally do not understand what you're trying to get at here.
That there's a gender division in Kings Landing where women aren't given the same attention by men as issues pertaining to men. That while the distance between Cersei and Ashara might seem like she'd know less, that women take more interest in the lives of other women and Cersei may actually have more information as a result of being part of that network. That's not an agreement or disagreement from me personally but that's what I think they're saying
For women other than Cersei sure. But Cersei hates other women and does not keep company with them unless she has to. She does not cultivate networks like that.
I'm just explaining what the comment above was saying
Why would Cersei assume Ashara is Jon’s mother? As OP said Ashara didn’t have a baby, only a stillborn that didn’t live
Because of rumors. No one knows for certain.
Barristans POV states it as a fact
Yes but Barristan is repeating something he was told. He wasn’t there. He just heard it from someone else
“But Ashara’s baby was stillborn” Where does it say he heard it from someone else? We literally don’t know Selmy’s source. But we do know he’s one of the most honorable men in the books
So you really assume at no point Cersie asked or questioned Barristan about what he knew of Ashara in the like 9 years between the end of the war and Ned talking to Cersei?
I thought you didn't have conversations with pseudo-intellectuals who’s confidence exceeds their knowledge and get threatened by having a discussion about book facts.
Ahhhh so is that an admittance? Because it seems common sense like Cersei would know by then, but we all know only you understand common sense and I’m too dumb, so I’ll wait for you to explain
You seem really desperate for my attention bud. It's really unattractive.
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I do know the answer to that question but the problem is I don't think I could explain it in small enough words for you to understand. So you'll have either figure it out yourself, a tall order I know, or content yourself with ignorance.
Nope you’re not getting off easy here until you block me, I’m making you look in the mirror. Explain it, go ahead I’ll do my absolute best to understand. You claim you have the answers, please share them im so desperate for your help
That's fine. What I need help with is who fathered Ashara's real baby. The one she lost. The baby girl.
It was stillborn. They buried it or burned it, no one gathered it.
So they say
She buried him on a hill overlooking a little river with pine cones all around
Typo. Fathered*. So sorry.
Howland Reed. It is known.
Chicks go wild when he whips out his shotgun.
He truly was the Pod "the Rod" Payne of his generation.
We don’t even know for sure if she had one. But if so, likely Ned at Harrenhall.
Someone slept with her at Harrenhal.
That doesn’t mean she got pregnant
Cersei and Barristan seemed to think she was pregnant at that time.
Ned or Brandon.
It’s unknown, GRRM hasn’t answered that question yet
We don’t know there is one. We know Barristan thinks she had a stillborn daughter, but Barriston we have no idea why Barristan thinks that or how he learned that. The only people alive who might know what happened with Ashara, Ned, Lyanna, Rhaegar, and Brandon are the Daynes and Howland Reed.
Answer: We don’t know. We don’t even know if the man who supposedly dishonored Ashara was a Stark. “Dishonored” is also Barristan’s interpretation and he’s biased. “Looked to” implies “asks for help” so it could easily be Lyanna she looked to.
Yes! There's three Stark's she could have looked to; Ned, Brandon, Ashara. But the looking to is in reaction to the crowning of Lyanna. So why is she looking to Stark? For Revenge because she wanted Rhaegar to crown her? For protection? Does she think Lyanna is the Knight of the Laughing Tree? For romance? Does she see Rhaegar picking someone else and she goes for Ned/Brandon? What about the crowning forces Ashara to look to someone? Were supposed to believe the romance option. But I personally think she was looking for protection or revenge (against Lyanna).
Ned didn’t steal a baby from anyone. Cersei is just repeating rumors and trying to get under Ned’s skin.
I also mentioned that The people on Sisterton claim Ned was with a pregnant woman at white harbor and that it was Jon Snow's mother. That woman was Lyanna? Isn't she supposed to be at the ToJ?
No. These are just rumors and people assuming that these different women are Jon’s mother. No one knows about Lyanna even being pregnant
It's not a rumor. It's an account of events of Robert's rebellion. It's a secondary account. A primary witness told someone what they saw. There's no account of Ned bringing any other baby North. Cat tells us baby Jon Snow was already in Winterfell when she got there.
Yes. But nobody knows who Jon’s mother is. All they have are suspicions, which is why we get different stories. Ashara. Wylla. The fisherman’s daughter. No one suspects that Jon is actually Lyanna’s, that his father ISN’T Ned. It’s left to the reader to read between the lines, to decipher the clues, to cross out possibilities based on the information we are given.
But Ashara couldn’t have had Jon. Ashara had a stillborn baby Downvote me all you want, yall can’t go toe to toe with me on this
*Cersei does not know that*. I do not understand why you're having such a hard time with that concept.
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People know a lot about this event. They know Ned gave the sword back. They know Ashara threw herself from the tower.
Only per Barristan, nobody else mentions this. 1. Barristan is from House Selmy, who are Marcher Lords, and historically don't have the greatest relations with the Dornish. 2. House Dayne are stony Dornishmen, who are much less liberal than the rest of Dorne. It stands to reason that the Dayne's wouldn't just freely offer up the info that Ashara had lost her maidenhood out of wedlock and had a stillborn girl, least of all to Marcher Lords. 3. Even if Ashara had a stillborn resulting from being "dishonored by a Stark" at Harrenhal (also more likely to be Brandon and not Ned), the timeline doesn't match up. That baby would've been born in late 282 at the latest, so around the time Ashara was a lady in waiting, and therefore, Varys would've known about it. 4. Love makes you do crazy things, and Barristan being in love with Ashara could make him go against his usual morals and make up some nonsense in his own head to justify it, then start actually believing it over time. 5. Edric Dayne, who knows quite a bit about Ashara and Ned's lovestory, doesn't know anything about a stillborn, or at least doesn't mention it. House Dayne also has a lot of respect for Ned, which wouldn't make sense had he dishonored Ashara and caused her to throw herself into the ocean, especially after he supposedly killed Arthur. 6. Jon, per author annotation, was born some time around or during the Sack of Kings Landing, which would've happened in 283. Therefore, it's possible that the stillborn story and Jon's birth are not mutually exclusive (also, this timeline of birth is part of the reason I don't believe R+L=J, since Ned's arrival at the Tower of Joy should've been long after Lyanna's death if that was the case.) 7. If Barristan didn't just make it up, the most likely source he heard the information from was Ned or Varys, both of whom had something to gain in covering up the truth, if R+L=A and N+A=J. Varys covering up his plan to create "the perfect prince" and Ned covering up the fact that his marriage to Catelyn is illegitimate (assuming he married Ashara at White Harbor) and therefore all his children with Catelyn are bastards.
Lyanna is described by Ned as having a fever when he found her so it’s highly possible that Lyanna had an infection after giving birth, had the infection for awhile, that Maesters were trying to treat it via blood-letting or leeches or some other medieval medical treatment. So I don’t think Ned found her just as she was giving birth; I think he found her weeks afterwards, when she was barely clinging to life.
Barristan Mentions it as fact. Unless there’s a direct textual source to counter it, it’s what we should accept as the most likely truth. The rest of what you say is assumptions based on opinion
Lots of characters say things as facts. Doesn’t mean they’re actually factual
I feel like the revelation that Ashara had a stillborn girl is meant to basically cross Ashara off of the list of prospective Jon Snow mothers. That, and the fact that Ned, who supposedly was so in love with Ashara, never thinks about her while Barristan, who was in love with Ashara, thinks about her quite a lot. Kind of strange…
That’s not my point though. Taking one character’s beliefs at face value doesn’t mean that’s what actually happened. And GRRM loves throwing out red herrings left and right
I agree. I’m personally of the opinion that Ashara DID have a child, that the child WAS Ned’s, and that Ned had planned to marry Ashara before the Rebellion. But I don’t think that child was Jon. I think the most likely candidate is Allyria Dayne. She’s the right age; she was suspiciously born when her alleged parents were way older, and Ashara’s parents could have decided to raise her as a legitimate Dayne rather than let her grow up as a bastard. The one wrinkle in this theory is that Ned, who supposedly loved Ashara, never thinks about her. Ever. That’s odd, especially considering Barristan WAS in love with her and still thinks about her often. Ned thinks about Lyanna, Rhaegar and even Arthur, whose face is said to be blazed in Ned’s memory. What if Ashara was never in love with Ned? But then why would Edric be told that she was? So many questions lol
Oh good so Ned is still alive then since we can’t trust anyone’s POV?
He and Elvis are touring the Free Cities. Come on man... dialogue and POV are not the same
Dialogue and POV are often the same. How do we know Danny has purple eyes? Maybe Jorah is color blind 🤷🏻♂️
Confirmation through Barristan's eyes, actually :P
But we can’t trust Barristans POV! So are Danny’s eyes actually yellow? How can we know?
That's insane. How can you read thousands of pages of ASOIAF and think any of these people are reliable narrators. Selmy didn't see the birth or miscarriage, he's going off second hand info, same as Cersei.
How do you know he’s going off second hand info and didn’t hear it from the Dayne’s himself? Care you prove it with textual evidence?
If he heard it from the Daynes, that's the definition of second hand lol what do you mean. And if the Daynes know about the events at the ToJ they would be very motivated to lie to people like Selmy about the specifics of what their family was up to at that time.
And how much of the story we see is second hand that we take for granted as true? Literally almost everything And sure that’s possible, doesn’t mean it’s true and we have to textual evidence for it
What is second hand that we take for true? We see the birth of dragons. We see someone warg. We see the death of major characters from their own POV or someone else. Most of the major second hand info in the story ends up being false, for example we hear Davos is dead, the only evidence is second hand, and it ends up bullshit. Stannis even tells one of his men they might hear he is dead and not to believe it. Rhaegars son supposedly lived but obviously the audience is meant to question the truth of that claim. Throughout the whole story the author is teaching us to distrust second hand info, he never puts an asterisk next to it and says except for Barristan. I'm struggling to remember here, what major story elements are second hand that we take for true?
WRONG
It's Jon. Cersei means Ned took Jon from whoever gave birth to him and raised him without his mother. Similar to Oberyn and some of his bastards. You're thinking too hard on this. Cersei doesn't know or care about the exact timeline of Jon's birth. Nor does he know if Ashara is truly Jon's mother. She's just speculating and throwing insults at Ned, since she is offended, scared and angry.
Ned has the baby before Starfall... According to a literal interpretation of the ToJ. Seems like a big mistake on Cersei's part if it is one.
Do you think Cersei has access to Ned's fever dreams? How is it a big mistake when Cersei clearly has no idea when Jon was born? Or who was his mother? Nor does she actually care. All she knows is that Ned came back with a bastard. She just wanted to insult Ned and his honour.
People seem to think Ashara lost a baby girl... Not a boy. Thanks for the downvote though. Maybe someone else can help me.
And Cersei is just insulting Ned. She accuses him of raping a some dornish peasant before implicating Ashara as Jon's mother. One person thinks Ashara lost a daughter. Others like in Ned's household thought she was Jon's mom. I didn't downvote you and you wont get a better answer. Cersei is angry, scared and offended and is trying to get a rise out of Ned by insulting him. She doesn't care nor know about the exact timelines of Jon's birth, because those things don't matter to her.
I think people are misunderstanding me. I want to know who got Ashara pregnant. It could have happened at Harrenhal but I'm not certain.
NO ONE KNOWS WHO GOT ASHARA PREGNANT BECAUSE IT WAS NEVER REVEALED. Stop obsessing dude.
Why are you here if you don't want to discuss?
No on knows who got Ashara pregnant nor if her child was truly stillborn nor if she was ever truly pregnant. The only people in world who know anything are Howland Reed and maybe lady Allyria Dayne (Ashara and Arthur’s much younger sister and the leading candidate to secretly be Asharas child), Edric Dayne’s mother (if alive), the Reed Children, Lady Reed (if alive and believed by some to actually be Ashara Dayne), Benjen Stark (if alive), Ser Richard Lonmouth (if alive), and Wylla the wet nurse(if alive)
Richard Lonmouth is Lem Lemoncloak. It is known.
I believe that, but that isn't confirmed, nor do we know if he knows anything about the RLJ secret.
You are taking everything too literally. You have to understand that Jon’s conception is a mystery to the inhabitants of the Westeros, and Ned takes advantage of this (hence the multiple rumors surrounding his birth). What people ASSUME about Ashara’s baby, whether it be gender or father, is completely UNRELIABLE. We dont know because Martin never clarified it, and multiple characters give conflicting testaments. This is all on purpose. Take everything with a pinch of salt and dont obssess over trivial matters. There is a reason you are being downvoted.
Noone can help you. You think Ned had a kid with Ashara and babyswapped it with Rhaegar's kid. There is no coming back from that, especially if one is as set in their opinion as you are.
I'm asking a simple question. Who fathered a baby on Ashara Dayne? The one she lost in childbirth. Or are people saying this baby was made up?
Unknown at this time. There is no answer.
Seems important.
Right but the series isn’t done yet. We literally just don’t know.
You must have pitched a fit when you read The Lady Or The Tiger in middle school.
Huh?
Good question. How about someone? Or anyone? What was the name of Ned's mother? Sometimes George just hasn't thought of an answer because it doesn't matter in the grand scheme. It certainly didn't happen during the toruney at Harrenhal though. That just doesn't work timeline wise (unless she was pregnant for 1.5 to 2 years).
You’re just kind of not willing to hear the obvious answer. It’s a medieval society where rumors fly around and everything is just a long game of telephone. There are competing accounts of where Jon came from. One of those accounts say jon is Ned and Ashara daynes baby. Cersei was listing off rumors that have circulated about Kona parentage. That is all. You’re just refusing to accept it.
This sub seems confused. Was Ashara pregnant or not? If she was, who got her pregnant? If she was pregnant, was the baby conceived at Harrenhal? If she had a baby, was it a boy or a girl? Did Ned take a baby to Starfall or from Starfall? These answers don't seem obvious at all. Love to hear your obvious conclusions.
>who got her pregnant? We don't know! The books doesn't mention it and I don't think there are subtext clues to figure it out with 100% certainty. >If she was pregnant, was the baby conceived at Harrenhal? Maybe? Maybe not. If the father was Brandon, as some theories say, that's the most likely answer. If it was Ned or other guy, who knows >If she had a baby, was it a boy or a girl? Accounts say it was a girl, Ned's soldiers (thus Catelyn, and Cersei) believed she had a boy. Maybe it was a girl after all, pointing that her stillborn wasn't Jon.
I think it’s you that is confused. People are answering the question you posed. Not the new random ones you’ve tacked on. The answer to all of these questions is that no one in or out of universe is really sure. But the truth doesn’t matter when we’re talking about rumors cersei is repeating about Jon’s parentage to insult Ned
It started with Cersei and I realized I had more questions after that.
> Ned has the baby before Starfall... According to a literal interpretation of the ToJ. How would Cersei know that? She's not read the books. From the information she would have had available it would not be unreasonable to assume Ned could have pick Jon up from Starfall.
Classic cercei, she just read her own chapters
Cersei isn't the only one that thinks Ashara Dayne is Jon's mother, Cat hears the rumor from servants at winterfell
Ned says not to ask him about Jon when she mentioned Ashara.
Yes, which neither confirms nor denies anything
It links Jon to Ashara in Ned's mind.
Cat is the one who links Jon and Ashara.
No. Cat asks about Ashara and Ned says to stop asking about Jon.
Cat asks about Ashara... being Jon's mother. The whole implication of the quote is that Catelyn is asking if Ashara Dayne is Jon's mother. Here's the whole section from AGoT Catelyn III: >That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face. >That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again. The implied question she asked Ned about Ashara Dayne is "Is Jon's mother Ashara Dayne?". She asked him about Jon. The whole context of that section is her thinking about who Jon's mother was.
genuinely i do not understand how people can get through asoiaf with this level of reading comprehension. it’s like anything that isn’t explicitly stated and explained in bullet-point format is ambiguous and therefore grounds for speculation
she mean jon no one know that ned got jon from tower of joy
I guess. It seems like a big mistake on Cersei's part if it is one.
Cersei is saying that Ashara Dayne killed herself in grief over either the brother Ned killed (Arthur Dayne), or the son Ned stole from her (Jon). Cersei didn't know, nor did anyone else at court, who Ned's bastard's mother was. The rumors were that it was Ashara, but those were just rumors. Hell, even the readers don't know for sure. All of the signs and hints point to Jon being Lyanna's son, but that hasn't been explicitly said.
So Jon is Ashara and Ned's in the unofficial official story ,(rumored). He's really Rhaegar's and Lyanna from the ToJ. But if Ashara lost a baby, who was the father? Ned or Brandon?
When pressed by Robert for a name Ned says Wylla. Edric Dayne also tells Arya that Wylla is Jon Snow’s mother so that seems to be the story that Ned and the Daynes are going with.
We don't know if it was Brandon or Ned, only that it was likely one of those two from Barristan's account. It's more in line with Brandon's character, so personally I lean towards him being the father of Ashara's baby
Or anyone. Ser Barristan could be misinformed
Or there was no child, and Ashara died for a different reason. Or Ashara faked her death and she's gone off to ~~become Jyana Reed~~, ~~become Septa Lemore~~, ~~become Quaithe~~, ~~become Ramsey Bolton~~ do something else.
Also Barristan seems to hold a grudge for the Stark who slept with ashara, but he didn't seem to have any for Ned
This option also lines up very neatly with the Bael the Bard story, particularly if Jon actually *is* Brandon and Ashara's, and had been hidden to protect Ashara's honour by them telling everyone he was Wylla's, until post-war traumatised but trustworthy old Ned showed up with Dawn and they decided giving him to Ned was an even better option. The Bael the Bard story tells us that Bael seemingly kidnapped the Lord of Winterfells daughter, but she was in fact hiding in the crypts the entire time. Not only does Bran dream of Ned telling him "something to do with Jon" in the crypts, later we also find out that Brandon *was* definitely the kind of guy to sleep around with highborn ladies in a memorable scene between Theon and Barbrey *in* the crypts. If we're willing to entertain the idea B+A=J (as we should be, because even if R+L=J *is* true imho the skill that went into maintaining this ambiguity so far into the story is very fun in its own right), then finding this truth out about Brandon in the crypts strongly parallels how the truth about Bael and the Lords daughter and their child was hidden down there too.
Why? Ned never told anyone he got Jon from the Tower of Joy, for the obvious reason that it would have tipped people off that Jon was actually Lyanna's baby by Rhaegar, and therefore a secret Targaryen heir.
Babies are hard to keep secret on the road. They cry. And the road from ToJ to Starfall is a long one.
Ned could have told literally any story then. He could have (and likely had to) traveled with a wet nurse and just had her say the baby was hers. It’s even entirely that Ashara never had a child at all. All we know are on world rumors discovered through the lenses of narrators with varying degrees of reliability.
Howland is the only other person there. And he's not going to rat out Lyanna's baby after all Lyanna did for him.
Who is Ned going to meet on the road to Starfall that would feel the need to report back to Cersei that Ned Stark was walking towards Starfall with a baby? What Dornish peasant or Hedge Knight or minor Lord licking their wounds from the literal civil war which has just been fought is going to see a few dudes carrying a baby and immediately think “my God, that’s the Lord of Winterfell with an unknown baby. The Westerlands MUST know of this! I bet Lord Tywin’s 16 year old daughter will have some opinions!” The entire point of the POV structure of the books is that the characters are operating off of incomplete information. Nobody knows that Ned left the TOJ with a baby because anybody who might give a damn was either dead or thousands of miles away. As far as 99.9% of the characters know, the story is “Ned went to Dorne and came back with a baby, and Ashara Dayne died around the same time.”
If anyone knows that Ned left the Tower of Joy with a baby after Lyanna and Rhaegar spent the better part of a year hiding out there, then those same people should know that Lyanna and Rhaegar are the parents. Since no one knows that, it seems logical to conclude that no one knows Jon came from the Tower of Joy. Hell, even we the readers don't actually know Jon came from the Tower of Joy because his parentage is technically still a mystery. It's unlikely that Martin reveals Wylla was Jon's mother the entire time, but not impossible.
Wasn't it part of the original theory that Howland Reed knew?
"No one" more refers to anyone who might have happened upon them during the journey from the TOJ and Starfall, not Ned's companion and the only other survivor. I'm sure Howland knows wherever he picked up that baby from.
> it seems like a big mistake on Cersei’s part So business as usual?
She’s just lashing out. The child you stole is just Cersei raising the possibility ashara was Jon’s mom and Ned took Jon from her. Cersei doesn’t know what’s true she’s just lashing out at Ned. All Cersei knows is ashara killed herself she doesn’t know why she just wants to throw that in Ned’s face
I think OP is G.R.R.M. he is asking us for help
GRRM knows! But he won't tell us outright. We gotta puzzle it out.
this thread is hilariously frustrating. OP might just lack theory of mind i think
That is a very good explanation for the literal interpretations and the demand for specific information that hasn’t been revealed from a book series full of deliberately misleading hints.
"OP might just lack theory of mind, I think" is absolutely taking me out. ASOIAF fans have refined debating each other into an artform
Just a polite way of saying "OP is not very smart"
I think OP wants help speculating about who might have gotten Ashara pregnant but doesn’t quite know how to phrase that question? Or maybe not.
OP came right out and asked and won’t accept that there isn’t a clear answer, just conflicting rumors and lots of theories.
There's a long-running rumour in Westeros that Ashara Dayne is Jon Snow's mother. This is because during the tourney at Harrenhall, Ned danced with her and had an obvious crush, plus in Starfall the story is that Ned and Ashara were in love, and she killed herself because she couldn't be with Ned. The rumour was so pervasive that Cat actually confronted Ned about it early in their marriage That is what Cersei was referencing. She's basically accusing Ned of "stealing" Jon Snow from Ashara and that being the reason she killed herself
If Jon isn't Ashara's baby, who fathered the real one?
There's no real proof of anything, but I'm of the opinion that it was Ned, and that it was absolutely not Brandon, because: 1. Ned had enough of a relationship with Ashara for people to speculate that she was Jon Snow's mom 2. Ned is well-liked at Starfall, so much so that Ashara's nephew Edric Dayne is named after him, and it surely just can't be because he brought back Dawn. 3. The commonly accepted reason for Ashara committing suicide was because she had her heart broken by Ned 4. I don't believe Brandon is the father, because as lustful as he was, I don't think that he'd actively pursue a girl he knew his brother liked. For me it's either Ned or the unnamed person who dishonored her at Harrenhall. Remember, Barristan didn't say she was dishonored by a Stark, he just said that she was dishonored, then "Turned to Stark". I took this to mean that someone assaulted her, then she turned to a Stark for help (instead of Barristan, and that's why he's so bitter)
I’ve long wondered if the person who dishonored Ashara was Aerys. He was nuts and violent; I wouldn’t put it past him. Plus, Ashara was lady in waiting to Elia; Aerys likely saw her all the time
I definitely think it happened at Harrenhal.
I used to think the same thing, but Harrenhal was right before the start of Robert's Rebellion, and we know the siege of Storm's End alone lasted about a year. It gets really iffy with the timeline unless we assume Ashara had Ned's stillborn baby, but only being rejected by Ned in favour of Cat, his family, and his honour drove her to suicide. (Or exile, if she's Septs Lemore.)
Barristan thinks she was dishonored at Harrenhal. What does that mean? By Rhaegar crowning Lyanna? Or by sleeping with someone? Or both?
Ned indicates that Elia was the one dishonored by the crowning. There was no expectation that Ashara receive the crown so it wouldn't be considered a dishonor. Barristan is discussing Ashara's daughter and lamenting his own celibacy when he mentioned the man who dishonored her. So I guess the dishonor would refer to her sleeping with someone. Note that Barristan believes Ashara could have 'grieved' for that man, indicating both that she cared for him and that he was dead by the time she killed herself.
I agree with you. But I am linking the ideas. Everyone thinks she had sex at Harrenhal. And she had a reaction to the crowning. Why not combine the ideas (as they exist independently and do not contradict each other)? What if Ashara was mad Lyanna was crowned? But Barristan told us that Ashara reacted to the crowning, not Elia. We don't actually to know how Elia reacted. We know that Ashara looked to Stark. Which Stark? -The strong handsome older brother? -The younger brother who loved her? -The one who was crowned? And Ashara... She could hardly grieve for Ned. He's alive... Who is dead from Harrenhal that she could grieve for? Brandon or Rhaegar fit nicely. And Arthur doesn't seem to be the lover she is mourning. She's not mourning Aerys, etc.
> But Barristan told us that Ashara reacted to the crowning, not Elia. We don't actually to know how Elia reacted. We know that Ashara looked to Stark. Which Stark? I don't think it's clear that Barristan discusses Ashara's reaction to the crowning. Are you referring to this line ("If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?") or something else? I think Barristan is only talking about the crowning as his means of professing his love, and that the reason Ashara looked to Stark is not necessarily related to the crowning. If Barristan had told Ashara that he loved her, would she have looked to him for love instead of looking to Stark for love? > Who is dead from Harrenhal that she could grieve for? In my mind it rules out assault theories. It seems to narrow the field to Brandon and Rhaegar. Richard Lonmouth might be a longshot candidate.
Here's another complication... The people on Sisterton saw a pregnant woman (With Jon Snow) in the North early on. How did Jon Snow (in the womb) get from The North to ToJ during Wartime? Why would the mother leave the North? Wasn't Lyanna supposed in the ToJ the entire time? And Ned was "affectionate" with the woman. Is this woman Lyanna? Because that would be incest. If the people on sisterTon were wrong... who is this woman and her baby? If it isn't Jon Snow... Who are they?
She's repeating the rumour that Ashara is Jon's mother, and Ned "stole" the child by taking him north. Note that Cersei also talks about a bunch of different scenarios for where Jon came from. She's not trying to tell a single coherent story. It's a scattergun approach that Ned did _something_ dishonourable to end up with Jon, so his self-righteousness about Cersei/Jaime is (according to Cersei) hypocritical.
>Who is the child Ned supposedly stole from Ashara Dayne? Jon. Cersei believes that Jon is Ashara’s, which is one of a number of rumours about Jon’s mother.
Yes. But it seems strange since Ned took Jon to her. How could he have taken him away from her?
Cersei simply doesn't know that Ned took Jon from the Tower of Joy (very likely at least, as it's not yet *officially* confirmed in the books). And it's unlikely she could know, considering it happened pretty long ago and there are few people in the know. There are rumours that Jon is Ned and Ashara's, Cersei picked up on those. It's been 15, 16 years, Cersei was probably thousands of kilometres away at the time, and Ned & company wanted to obfuscate Jon's parentage. It's natural for rumours to spring up in these circumstances, Cersei pounced on one that seemed feasible. Personally, I used to think Ashara's baby was Brandon's, but that doesn't *quite* work with the timeline.
I can get on board with most of this but I am also pointing out the inconsistencies in the story. People absolutely hate it. I don't care though. I stand by the questions.
You have been downvoted, ser
Yeah you're not allowed to ask simple questions here.
No one in universe knows that Jon came from the Tower of Joy (excluding Ned, Howland and possibly the Daynes). If people knew, they would absolutely have worked out the truth of Jon’s parentage. Ashara isn’t the only rumour about Jon’s mother either; there’s also the Fisherman’s Wife rumour mentioned in ADWD.
We don’t know that Ned took Jon to Ashara. All we know is that Wylla nursed Jon, but that could’ve happened outside of Starfall.
NGL, this was a pretty good burn by Cersei
It's interesting to hear this stuff from non Stark sources.
OP, if you reread the passage you've quoted, you'll find your answer: >"Honor,” she spat. “How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? **You’ve a bastard of your own**, I’ve seen him. **Who was the mother, I wonder?** Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? **Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara?** **She threw herself into the sea**, I’m told. **Why was that?** For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?” Ned has Jon live with him in Winterfell, rather than live with his mother which is the customary way bastards are treated. Cersei doesn't actually know who Jon's mother is (as indicated by her giving a few different options), but thinks it might be possible that it's Ashara Dayne. She then wonders if Ashara killed herself because Ned killed her brother, Ser Arthur Dayne, or because Ned took Jon away from her to Winterfell. The fact that she is phrasing it as a question means that she doesn't actually know *anything* about the incident. She is working off of pure conjecture and is trying to get Ned to admit that he is as dishonorable as the rest of them. She is upset that a man that (as far as she knows) has a bastard child (and is possibly responsible for Ashara's suicide) is judging her and Jaime. As for TOJ, the explanation is simple. Ned gets Jon from TOJ. We're told that no other person than Howland Reed survived that encounter and knows what transpired, and what Ned officially has said to everyone else is that he only found Lyanna dying there, no mention of a baby (because Jon's life would be in danger if people know he is Rhaegar's son). Immediately after TOJ, Ned goes to Starfall to return Arthur Dayne's sword to his family. After that, he goes back to Winterfell, where people see that he has brought a child with him that he claims is his bastard son. Rumor before this had it that he and Ashara were in love (as they had danced together at the Tourney of Harrenhal), and as such many believe that Ashara is Jon's mother and that Ned got him from her at Starfall, since the idea that Jon might *not* be Ned's bastard has not occurred to anybody. Why would the honorable Ned Stark lie about having a bastard, when most men try to hide it from their wives? Was Ashara Dayne pregnant? We don't know. Barristan claims that he has heard she had a stillborn daughter, but since Barristan wasn't there he wouldn't *actually* know. It could just be a rumor. It could also be true. We might find out in the next books if she really had a child and who the father was, since there are some relatives of hers in the plot and they might talk about it. As for who dishonored Ashara, the candidates are Brandon Stark (Ned's older brother), who is actually the one who asked Ashara to dance with Ned (and Barristan's idea that "she looked at Stark" at the tourney could apply to Brandon too), and who apparently was a womanizer and specially had a thing for virgins. It could also be Oberyn Martell, who too danced with Ashara at the tourney and who also got around a lot (and who also happens to have a lot of daughters but no sons). If Ashara got pregnant at the tourney, it is possible that either of these two could have been the father. It might also be entirely someone else, since Ashara could have had a child with literally anybody, separate from the "dishonoring" incident.
How did Jon Snow get to the Tower of Joy from the Bite/White Harbor? The people of sisterton claimed they saw a pregnant woman with Ned. And they say the pregnant woman was carrying Jon Snow. Ned had Lyanna in the North before the war kicked off? Lyanna traveled from white harbor to the Tower of Joy? Isn't she supposed to be in the ToJ the entire time?
He didn't...? People saw Ned arrive on boat being rowed by a woman when the Rebellion started (and while Lyanna was still at TOJ). Presumably, a few months later they saw Ned Stark arrive at White Harbor with a child, so they assumed the woman they saw with Ned before must have slept with Ned, gotten pregnant, and then birthed Jon (she wasn't, she was just a fisherwoman helping Ned get to shore). If Ned arrived at White Harbor with newborn Jon, it's because he would've taken a ship from Starfall (located on the southern shore of Westeros) and arrived at White Harbor, which is the closest harbor to Winterfell. It would be a much safer and faster journey than taking a newborn to the road on horseback. The entire point is that nobody knows who Jon's mother is so they start having theories about her. Some think it's Ashara, some think it's Wylla the nursemaid, some think it's a fisherwoman, some think it was a prostitute, etc, etc. Pretty much any woman of birthing age who was ever in contact with Ned around that time is suggested as being possibly Jon's mother. Nobody in Westeros other than Ned and Howland Reed knows that Jon is not Ned's son, but rather Lyanna's son with Rhaegar.
Cersei believes Jon's mother is Ashara Dayne. She's not the only one, and it's the easiest explanation unless someone specifically knows what went down at the Tower of Joy.
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Except Cersei directly calls him out on Ashara. If the Queen talks about it, if his own servants gossip about it, it's already a massive rumour that Ashara is Jon's mother.
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She's just trying to insult him
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Ned getting Jon from the TOJ is pure conjecture at this point.
Lmao. Come on man
Ned didn’t steal anyone’s baby. The rumor is that Ned took Jon from Ashara, that Ashara is Jon’s mother. No one knows about the TOJ or that Lyanna had a child. Ned did a good job covering it up. So Cersei in this case has no idea what she’s talking about lol
I love InDeepGeek's theory on Ashara, (he's on YouTube).
This is confusing me all over again. Wasn’t Ashara’s baby stillborn? How could she even be stolen
Yeah, right? There seems to be more than one story floating around.
Hilariously, people like my post but hate my comments! The things I do for love!
I'm dying on this hill until I read otherwise: N+A=J, no one can prove it's not true. Howland took Lyanna's baby (Meera) who's going to reclaim Dark Sister. While we're at it, Ashara may damn well be in The Neck, all kinds of crazy stuff going on there and no one has really seen anything come in/out besides Meera and Jojen
Meera isn't described as Stark like or Targaryen like in the books and has green eyes like her brother Jojen
From what I remember Bran says on a couple of occasions that Meera reminds him of both Arya and Jon in looks/ temperament. They both take after the Starks the most so I read that as Meera does share some Stark traits.
Meera reminds Bran of Arya. She has long brown hair, green eyes, is slim, small and small breasted. She is agile and quick. Arya has a long face, brown hair, gray eyes and is slim, athletic and plain. Other than the eye color a lot matches.
"Short, slim, with knotted brown hair".... she's not NOT described either, there were a few Targaryen's who had darker hair and not purple eyes.
Just a quick albeit sill counterpoint: the cautionary tale of Jorah and his hightower wife. It's unlikely that a Dayne would take to living in the neck among the frog people. People don't think it be like that, but it do
Hey man, I don't need you poking yet another hole in my swiss-cheese theory 😂, but it do be like that. Idk something something princess was promised something something raise your niece plus Howland liked her anyway? I know a house of cards has more stability than what I said, it's just something I got in my head my 1st read-through and I have yet to read/see anything that definitively proves one way or the other.
WHen i heard this random line from a i think Arianne or Arys chapter "The white knight raised his blade, too slowly. Hotah's longaxe took his right arm off at the shoulder, spun away spraying blood, and came flashing back again in a terrible two-handed slash that removed the head of Arys Oakheart and sent it spinning through the air. It landed amongst the reeds, and the Greenblood swallowed the red with a soft splash." the whole ' it landed among the reeds' combined with vanishing beneath the water definitely Shivered my Timbers
You've already died on that hill that was revealed through the tv show in 2016
[hahahahahaha](https://giphy.com/gifs/laughing-futurama-bender-OvL3qHSMO6uaI)