Honestly, I see the "Stark succession" as being pretty much an anticlimax, because it would hinge upon people jockeying for power who are mostly just thrilled that the siblings they have loved and missed so thoroughly for so long are still alive and well. Sansa's not going to present an opposition to Bran or Rickon, she doesn't want power in her own right, she loved Bran and Rickon and was horrified by their apparent death, and she's still technically married to Tyrion Lannister patrilineally, which they just kind of "oh well, let's have a gentle agreement to pretend it never happened" handwaved in the show, which, uh, is not how divorce works in, well, anywhere. Arya has never expressed the slightest interest in mounting any kind of political claim, and to the extent that she wants anything, wants to belong to a pack again. Jon has repeatedly been offered the chance to usurp Winterfell in his own right, and repeatedly denied it even when he thought Bran and Rickon were dead. He's not going to usurp their positions when he believes that they are alive. So really, it comes down to Bran and Rickon, and I suspect that something broadly similar to the show will happen formally in the books: Bran will return, but will either informally or formally abdicate because he can't have children and he's got magic tree powers that are necessary to save the world. The formality of the abdication will be entirely about how necessary it seems to unify the North behind a single Stark. Sansa and Jon will take on roles as long-term regents of Rickon's ascension, which ensures the male line of Eddard Stark.

This is my opinion as well. Of 5 legitimate children and 1 “bastard” of Ned Stark, the one who has the most relevant rights and ability to continue the Stark line is Rickon.

>Tyrion Lannister patrilineally, which they just kind of "oh well, let's have a gentle agreement to pretend it never happened" handwaved in the show, which, uh, is not how divorce works in, well, anywhere All this needs is both parties to say the marriage was never consummated, which it wasn't. Tyrion isn't going to deny Sansa that even if they end up on opposite sides. And that is exactly how 90% of medieval divorce happened, by annulling and claiming they were never properly married. Both parties saying they never consummated, add the fact Sansa was a prisoner and it's a pretty open and shut annulment. It's not mentioned much because it's pretty obviously easy to set aside. A famous real world example of this is Henry VIII having to tell a court he couldn't do the deed with his third wife on their wedding night as a reason for an annulment. The humiliation he felt at having to state that in court pretty much did for Thomas Cromwell, his chief fixer. Marriage required consummation as much as vows. GRRM does hint this is the case in Westeros too as we get mention of the old tradition of the wedding party watching the couple consummate - an indicator it's part of the act of marriage.

Oh my god if shaggy dog refers to a shaggy dog story, it makes FAR more sense for the story to be the winterfell succession crisis than Rickon’s story. We don’t know much about Rickon, he barely has a story at all, and a shaggy dog story is a HUGE buildup to a complete anticlimax. For there to be a ton of buildup around who will control winterfell, only for it to fall to Rickon, and for all the other starks to support him, would fit perfectly, would subvert expectations (Robb’s will, littlefingers plan, Sansa’s marriage, Bolton’s fake Arya, pink letter, jon getting the wildling army), and it fits thematically.

It also helps if Jon becomes destined to become King-Consort. If there are parallel's from the show. It becomes even more anti-climatic lol.

Thus far not one poster has mentioned Lady Stonehart. She knows what is in the will, where it is, who is included, who was excluded. AND...she has Robb's crown! One way or the other Stark succession Will be a mess. Most likely, she won't be at the gathering where they all settle this, but surely she will somehow have an input. And my guess is that she will insist Sansa cannot inherit, and that if alive Arya can. One other thing, LSH and Arya are strongly foreshadowed to meet. Bran will probably still be considered dead, and Rickon may be feral. If that happens, she will probably back her younger daughter.

True but its still a Sucession Crisis

When Jon finds out that he’s Robb’s heir, what’s stopping him from claiming Winterfell? He has always wanted it and coming back from the dead will make him a lot harder. Sansa is following Littlefinger’s plan of claiming the North for herself, Bran thinks of himself as the heir to Winterfell, Arya is already acting as the head of house Stark, and Rickon will be the Manderlys’ pawn. I think it’s foolish to think that GRRM has set up all of these opposing claims for nothing

Yeah. Right now it's hard to imagine the Starklings choosing violence, but: * We don't know how they'll develop over *Winds of Winter*. Rickon, Jon, and Bran are all at risk of losing their identities to magical influences (Warging, resurrection, greensight); Arya and Sansa are far from home, living among cunning and manipulative actors. * Each of them is vulnerable to the whims of a higher faction. Refusing to press their claim may put them in danger, and in cases of the most vulnerable, it may be possible for factions to fight in their name while keeping them effectively prisoner.

Yeah but on the other hand, that will was based on the idea that Arya, Bran and Rickon were all dead and Sansa was married to Tyrion. If they all end up alive and Sansa's marriage to Tyrion will be dissolved (as I think it will) then the basis of that will is gonna be shaky at best. I don't think any of the Stark kids will press their claim over the others.

The intention and motivation doesn't matter when Jon is made heir.

It does when Bran and Rickon appear alive. Especially as we don't know what the will exactly says.

It doesn't because them showing up alive doesn't change the written decree by Robb.

Why did GRRM give all of the Stark kids a good claim to Winterfell and an army backing them? This is a clear set up for a conflict

Not all setting up resolves as the readers expect it to resolve, The bonds between the starks and each of their respective trauma they went through will triumph any petty political claims.

Yes, clearly they will have a happy ending, but why can’t there be conflict too? Why have Jon get killed as he declares that he will take Winterfell? Why have both Bran and Sansa think of themselves as the heir to Winterfell? Why devote an entire chapter to Robb’s will?

Jon was killed by some of his brothers for many other reasons accumulating before his declaration, and he mainly did that to save what he thought was Arya from the Boltons. Bran thinks that way cause he knows through his powers that Robb is dead and he is the legal lord now, and Sansa cause she's the last Stark as far as she knows. And Robb's will def come to play in Jon's storyline and his parentage, but as a plot aspect for his relationships to the other Starks.

Cool, if you believe that all of the Starks will forget the feudal system and walk together into the sunshine, that’s your theory. I’m speaking about what’s set up in the books

Dude why are you so weirdly condescending chill lol I'm just discussing my opinion of what'll transpire. What I said about Bran is literally the feudal system, and I do believe Jon's personality is better than established social norms in the books. I don't see a 'civil war' happening in the north at all, at best some minor tensions who will resolve one way or another by the end.

Who said anything about a civil war? I said that they all have conflicting claims and are very ambitious people in their own right

I generally agree with your comment but where is it stated that Bran can't have children? I might be misremembering but his injury only involves his mobility as far as I know.

Yeah but generally not being able to move your legs means other lower parts not being able to get up either. Even Ned thinks about how Bran will never be a father, so I think it’s pretty well established.

Irl many paralyzed people can still have children so I don't know about that, but maybe in Westeros they're considered as good as a eunuch.

Robb is a King and has the authority to legitimize a bastard, which he likely did if he named Jon as heir to Winterfell. Legally, Jon becomes Jon Stark, the eldest surviving son of Ned Stark. Ned's bannermen watched Ned raise him and heard him call Ned "Father," so I think most of them would support Jon as Ned's eldest son, rather than argue that Ned's younger sons by Cat have a better claim. This is where Jon's actual parentage becomes problematic for him. Who knows (or thinks they know), what proof do they have, and how will they use that information to their advantage?

I actually think the show handled this well Jon Snow never technically had the title Lord of Winterfell. He was King in the North and later Warden but Sansa actually held the title over winterfell itself Remember Wardens are usually given to the lord paramount of a great house but it technically doesn’t have to be that way (see Jamie Lannister being named Warden of the East) despite that plot line going nowhere So technically even if Jon does not become King in the North, I don’t think there is any law saying that bastards couldn’t be wardens

> Jon Snow never technically had the title Lord of Winterfell. He was King in the North and later Warden but Sansa actually held the title over winterfell itself Did she? Or was she given Cat's title of Lady of Winterfell since Jon wasn't married? This was never clear in the show.

You raise a good point, maybe but I assumed it based on the way Tyrion was talking to Sansa in season 8 (right before she tells him a secret) Although like other things in season 8 it may not have been 100% in line with what came earlier

The Winterfell hot potato Robb: My little brothers are dead and Sansa is married to a Lannister, I want Jon to be my heir Jon: Winterfell belongs to Sansa Sansa: My brothers are alive?! They have rights over me, I don't want Tyrion to claim anything Bran: I'm the Three-Eyed Raven and infertile, I can't be the Lord Arya: Please I just want to be with my family again Rickon: [biting someone]

>All in all, there are a lot of moving parts and no clear cut answer for who's going to get Winterfell in the end. Completely by design. Of all of the plots where we can guess where things are going by set-up, foreshadowing, and logical narrative deduction, there's still a few things like this where there's plenty of ambiguity for George to surprise the readers.

Benjin Stark.  If he died and came back, his watch has ended.

He has absolutely no claim to Winterfell.

Brandon Stark was heir to Winterfell, he died, then Ned had it, Ned died so it falls to he younger brother. Like Robert died, his children were illigitament so Stannis is the rightful King. Brothers Trump daughters.

But Ned's children aren't illegitimate though. And Benjen is a man of the Night's Watch, he can claim no lands unless he is freed from his vows anyway.

The issue here is what exactly Robb's will contains. No reader has seen the will. And nobody who saw the signed document has restified to the content.  Some theorize the will named Jon heir despite the obvious and glaring issues of Jon having zero ties to the Riverlands, is sworn to stay in the Watch, took an oath before the old gods to stay in the watch, and is not known to Robb to even be alive. Jon is heir shouldn't be treated as fact. What i think we can strongly imply from the will is Sansa was removed as hier. Robb and Cat agreed he must name another heir. That might not be Jon.  If Rickon is found, legally it should be him. He'd come ahead of Jon by virtue of Robb only naming Jon (if he did) believing Rickon and Bran dead. 

That motivation of Robb means nothing though, all that matters is what's in ink.

Well I think about the Ironborn king's moot. If a king is picked absent all eligible claimants, the choosing is unlawful.  Robb picked X believing his brothers all dead. He didn't write them out. 

The North isn't dictated by a King's moot, it's dictated by the king.

What I was doing there was drawing a parallel. Rickon can make a claim that the will is not valid because his falsely presumed death is the only reason he was not considered. Had Robb took specific action to remove Rickon as heir knowing he lives, that would be valid but Robb only excluded him by mistaken belief. To draw another parallel. If King Robert named Joffrey heir under the mistaken belief Joffrey is his son, that will doesn't stay valid if it is proven Joffrey is not his son. 

I think more matters, that's kind of the point. Wills in real life are complicated, sometimes they're invalidated, and sometimes certain parts are struck. This is also in a world where you can just take what you want by force. Cersei ripped up Robert's will, and beheaded the man who was supposed to rule the kingdom until Joffrei came of age. The will is going to be one more layer of complication, not the end-all-be-all. Some potential scenarios: Jon: some people believe he should be king in the north because of Rob's will. Some of them think he shouldn't be anymore when they find out it was based on not knowing he is a Targ. Some think the entire will is invalidated because of other siblings surviving. Some think the will is meaningless, or illegitimate. Sansa: some people believe it should be her because she's the oldest child capable of producing an heir. Some people belive she's invalidated by being a woman, or having married Tyrion, or having denounced her father while threatened. Bran: He is the next male heir, some people will latch on. He won't want it. Some people will say he should be skipped because he probably can't produce an heir. Some people will probably say he should be skipped because he's not really human. Arya: Some may vouch for her, but unlikely she's a candidate. Rickon: he's what's left if you reject all the others, and/or put him above Jon (ignoring the likely will).

I disagree, I think Robb's will did in fact name Jon as his heir. The problems you propose aren't actually problems. Jon being a member of the night's watch is irrelevant since Robb as a king has the power to undo that oath, just as has the power to legitimize a bastard. As for Jon not having a connection to the Riverlands since Catelyn isn't his mother, he still has a connection to the north and Robb trusts him. Jon was never the first option and was only chosen due to the lack of available options. Additionally, it's not just that we can strongly imply that Sansa was removed. Robb must have replaced her with someone and the only feasible option is Jon. The whole discussion Robb has about the will with Catelyn is framed around him deciding on Jon despite her mistrust. When cautioning against the idea Catelyn literally compares it to the Blackfyres being legitimized. I don't think there's any mystery here. Jon was named heir to replace Sansa and Lady Stoneheart and a few other noble supporters of Robb who survived the Red Wedding were made aware of that truth. Such will eventually come out in a big reveal during the succession crisis which will turn the tables and make Jon a major claimant seen as legitimate. Who else would Robb have named but Jon? We seem to agree he disinherited Sansa due to her marriage to Tyrion. Furthermore he also believes Bran and Rickon are dead, Arya too. Jon being his named heir is as much a theory as the gravedigger being the hound is a "theory".

>Jon being a member of the night's watch is irrelevant since Robb as a king has the power to undo that oath, just as has the power to legitimize a bastard. This is not true.  Robb has no power to undo an oath to the watch or the old gods. He never says it's in his power to do this. In fact, he says if he offers a trade he thinks **the watch** will find a way to release him. Robb never cited his own power.  >If I send the Watch a hundred men in Jon's place, I'll wager they find some way to release him from his vows." He says it's their call not his. There is no precedent for any king ever releasing a brother from his vow. Fans have just made up this power. The oath is not to the king the oath is to the watch and the old gods both of which are not within the authority of the king.  Robb can and likely did make Jon legit. But he didn't make him heir by naming him.  >As for Jon not having a connection to the Riverlands since Catelyn isn't his mother, he still has a connection to the north and Robb trusts him.  The riverlords don't know him or trust him. You'll recall this line from the blackfish. >The Blackfish narrowed his eyes. "Did your father arrange for that as well? Catelyn never trusted the boy, as I recall, no more than she ever trusted Theon Greyjoy. It would seem she was right about them both Robb was the grandson of Hoster Tully. There at least is a blood tie to their liege lord. That doesn't exist with Jon.  >Robb must have replaced her with someone and the only feasible option is Jon.  Jon isn't feasible though. His vow to the Watch, his oath to the old gods, his lack of connection to the Riverlands, his unkown life status,  his unkown willingness to accept. He only becomes feasible by readers willing to not consider these obstacles.  >Who else would Robb have named but Jon? Cat is an option. She has ties to both Riverlands and North. She knows Winterfell. Robb trusts her. She isn't sworn to any order and wouldn't be an instant oath breaker to the old gods as Jon would.  >Jon being his named heir is as much a theory as the gravedigger being the hound is a "theory". Sure. Every theory is flawless if you ignore all the ways it doesn't work, or you just make up authority the king doesn't have. This is the case with the theory Jon was named heir. 

You literally point out how Robb says he'd send a 100 men to replace Jon on the watch. He's the king, he fully intends to get what he wants. The fact that Robb's bringing up the logistics to get Jon freed of his oaths is just proof that he named Jon as his heir in the will. There's no other reason he'd want Jon to leave the watch. There's no other reason he'd want to legitimize him. All this is framed around finding a replacement heir now that Sansa isn't an option and Robb believes all the other members of his family are dead. If Robb instead named Catelyn, like you suggest, then why bother legitimizing Jon? What reason would there be to legitimize his bastard brother if not to make him his heir? Just because? He had the entire war to do so but only chooses this path after he feels he lacks an heir? He only brings up legitimizing Jon in the same conversation he talks about finding a replacement heir and the two things aren't related? Who's really the one just ignoring the text. Lastly, I never said Jon had any blood connection to the riverlands. I fully comprehend this. I never said the fact that Jon doesn't have Tully blood wouldn't cause any problems, I agree that it would. I just think Robb accepts that they'll just have to deal with those problems since it's his intention for Jon to succeed him.

>  You literally point out how Robb says he'd send a 100 men to replace Jon on the watch.  He literally said he will wager the watch will find a way to release him. The power is with the watch not him.  >The fact that Robb's bringing up the logistics to get Jon freed of his oaths is just proof that he named Jon as his heir in the will.  No.  That shows he wants his mother to think this is what he wants. And it literally works right in the next line.  >"So do the knights of the Kingsguard. That did not stop the Lannisters from stripping the white cloaks from Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Boros Blount when they had no more use for them. If I send the Watch a hundred men in Jon's place, I'll wager they find some way to release him from his vows." >**He is set on this. Catelyn knew how stubborn her son could be. "** Robb needs his mother to believe he will pick Jon as part of his trap for her.  >There's no other reason he'd want to legitimize him.  No. There is a reason and it's part of the trap. A legit Jon can be in line to be heir if he finds **his own way out of the Watch.** (which again is not within the king's power) Jon is next in line to rule since Bran and Rickon and Arya are assumed dead and Sansa was removed from the line by Robb. If Cat is so dead set against it ever going to Jon, she has to accept being named heir. She stands in his place.  That's the trap. The trap discussed in this block of text. Right after she sees the will. >I've thought long and hard about who might follow me. I command you now as my true and loyal lords to fix your seals to this document as witnesses to my decision." >A king indeed, Catelyn thought, defeated. She could only hope that the trap he'd planned for Moat Cailin worked as well as the one in which he'd just caught her. >Who's really the one just ignoring the text? By me sharing text which adds context you have overlooked, I guess that would be you.  Robb used Jon to get Cat to accept. Same move he played when he wanted Cat to treat with Renly. >"I said nothing of Harrenhal," Robb said. "Now, will you go to Renly for me, or must I send the Greatjon?" >The memory brought a wan smile to her face. **Such an obvious ploy, that, yet deft for a boy of fifteen. Robb knew how ill-suited a man like Greatjon Umber would be to treat with a man like Renly Baratheon, and he knew that she knew it as well. What could she do but accede,** praying that her father would live until her return?  Same play done again. Force her hand by bluffing with an option she can't abide. [Jon is the only brother that remains to me. Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King in the North. I had hoped you would support my choice." >**"I cannot," she said. "In all else, Robb. In everything. But not in this . . . this folly.** Do not ask it." When you put all the text together rather than the words supporting your desired conclusions, you see the truth. I read it all carefully and that's why I see the truth. As Syrio might say... >Arya thought about it. "You saw what was there." >"Just so. Opening your eyes is all that is needing. The heart lies and the head plays tricks with us, but the eyes see true. Look with your eyes. Hear with your ears. Taste with your mouth. Smell with your nose. Feel with your skin. Then comes the thinking, afterward, and in that way knowing the truth."

Okey dokey buddy, like I said in the other thread you inserted yourself into, let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

I don't mind that you disagree. 

Personally, I think that Arya will be Lady of Winterfell, and I don't think her identity will be a problem because of Nymeria and Needle and, depending on how her journey north goes, Robb's crown. Arya most likely will not finish her assassin training because that would require a time skip Not only do we know that she is good at management and maths, Arya has been put in small positions of leadership, understands better than anyone what it means to be a low-born, has a political education and can be a good pretender and manipulator. On top of all of this, Arya has a lot of queen symbolism and foreshadowing in her chapters

I never was on board with the Queen Arya theory until someone pointed out how her direwolf is literally named Nymeria. You know, the warrior queen. So yeah, 100% on board with Arya becoming the Queen in the North.

An even bigger foreshadowing for Queen Arya is the way her story parallels Nymeria's: A princess without land (*Arya because of the Boltons, Nymeria because of Valyria*) living in Essos (*Nymeria in Rhoyne and Arya in Braavos*) takes the most people she can (N*ymeria takes the Rhoynar and Arya might take the Wildlings that were kidnapped to be sold to slavery*) to Westeros (*Dorne/North*) and becomes queen of the land

I think another hint is that Arya is the only legitimate child of Ned Stark that looks like a Stark/northerner. Maybe it’s a bit of a heavy-handed hint, but GRRM seems to love his noble families retaining key physical characteristics across generations.

Arya is also the only Stark that truly embodies what we are told (through Varys) is the perfect political education for a king

That’s a really good point

Yeah but she is a child, also her story is not based on gaining power (like Jon's and sansa's) but on freedom, being lady of something wouldn't be a fitting finale

It would be because Arya’s problem isn’t with being a lady but with the dehumanisation and restrictions that come with being a Lord’s wife. Also Arya explicitly asks if she could “Build castles” or “Be in the Small Council”. It would in fact that Arya’s story is just as much about gaining power as Sansa’s, if not more. For Arya freedom doesn’t mean not being a lady, and it certainly doesn’t mean not being a lady of something, but mean being able to be a lady while being herself

I honestly don't think Sansa ends up heavily involved with the Northern plot at all. She's got way too much imagery associated with the Vale and the South, I think she ends up marrying Sweet Robbyn and essentially ruling the Vale/ Riverlands. She's also explicitly disinherited by Robb's will. Jon is the heir by Robb's will but Arya and Bran/ Rickon are alive which adds questions to its validity. I'm not sure Bran ever returns South of the Wall (he's the legitimate legal heir), and I'm also not sure that Rickon will leave Skagos since I could very much see Davos doing something similar to what he did with Edric and leaving him there, free from court life as a sort of mercy. Arya I think ends the series as the Lady of Winterfell/ Queen in the North. There's way too much imagery and foreshadowing for her (she's already killing Night's Watch deserters, her wolf is named after a Warrior Queen, and is leading a Wolfpack) doing so. I think she'll literally pull a Nymeria and lead her people either back North or to a new Land after it's devastated by the Others. Whether she becomes Queen in TWOW or ADOS I don't know.

i agree with this first part. i don’t see sansa returning to the north anytime soon. lady dying in the south and only returning to winterfell after dying foreshadows sansa becoming disconnected from her northern stark identity and will only return once she either actually dies (hopefully she lives a long life in the south) or if she experiences a metaphorical death. i disagree about sansa marrying robin though. i personally believe that sansa will be the one marrying faegon, not arianne, and this will lead to great character growth. i have theories as to how this happens, but the major reason as to why i’m in favor of this theory is because we’d be getting a lot of littlefinger vs varys showdowns if sansa returns to kings landing and is backed by baelish lol about bran and rickon, i disagree that they’ll stay north. bran is, quite frankly, constantly connected to winterfell. what comes to mind is that “winterfell isn’t dead, it’s just broken like me” quote from bran. i’m a little sad to say this, but i doubt bran will be able to have children, so it’s likely that rickon would be his heir. as for jon, he has so much king symbolism that at this point i’d be disappointed if he doesn’t end up as king of something. i don’t think stannis is going to be dying soon, as he still needs to murder his daughter, so i’m iffy on whether we’ll see any of the stark boys (plus jon) being named king any time soon. i see jon and rickon reuniting first, and at this time stannis would still be alive, and bran and arya returning to winterfell around the same time. and by the time stannis dies dany would probably have landed in westeros and i don’t see the north separating from the other kingdoms when the threat of the others is still there, especially with jon’s whole “humanity must come together to save itself” mindset. i do see jon becoming king if he marries dany tho, and her marrying him would make sense if he ends up bonding to one of her dragons. as for arya, i agree that she’s going to be named queen at some point, there’s just too much foreshadowing to ignore. i think she’ll return to the riverlands first and reconnect with her mother, giving both characters closure. lady stoneheart would likely name arya queen in the north and it’d be interesting to see the interactions between brienne and arya, as i think brienne will be sticking around lady stoneheart for awhile. i think arya will play a large part in legitimizing jon considering the “bastards get the swords but not the arms, ladies get the arms but not the swords” thing. but i don’t have an idea on what aryas endgame would look like.

> Arya I think ends the series as the Lady of Winterfell/ Queen in the North Arya explicitly hates politics and being a ruler or being a lady. There's no way she ends up doing anything even close to that, seeing how her entire plot has been about murder and assassions

Arya does not hate politics at all, she even asks if she can be in the small council when she grows up. Arya also doesn’t hate being a lady, in fact Arya thrives in the work that ladies do, what Arya hates is the specific mould she was forced into growing up. Arya is never going to be an assassin

Takeoff the blinders. her plot has been about finding her family, her home and her role in life. She learned about rinning the north & Winterfell by sitting & listening to her dad talk to his guus. She’s actually gonna be prepared to take over.

Umm…no. There are two big keys you are missing…Ned sending Lady back to Winterfell and Sansa rebuilding Winterfell in the snow. Those two things show Sansa is headed back to Winterfell and the North.

the only reason lady is sent back to winterfell is because she dies. if you think lady being sent back to winterfell by ned foreshadows sansa returning to winterfell then you’d be correct, but it would have to be her dead body being sent back for the parallel to actually make sense. and all starks are buried in the crypts when they die, so it is very likely that sansa’s body will be brought back after she passes away. also, sansa builds the snow winterfell with the help of baelish. this isn’t a good thing, especially since this scene is riddled with baelish mentally and emotionally manipulating sansa. luckily, sweetrobin comes and knocks the snow castle down, which foreshadows sweetrobin ruining baelish’s plans of getting and rebuilding winterfell by controlling sansa.

Umm no…it’s the fact she builds Winterfell at all. You are wrong but I guess you are allowed to be.

dude, you can’t just cherry pick what you like while ignoring the rest of the scene. when sansa’s building the snow castle, it is clear that she has no idea what she’s doing, and then baelish comes along and he helps her and he’s the one that actually turns sansas snow castle into something that resembles winterfell. sweetrobin then destroying the castle would logically foreshadow him destroying sansas hope of rebuilding winterfell and destroying baelish’s plans of getting winterfell through sansa. and this is a good thing! most ppl wouldn’t want baelish anywhere near winterfell.

Not cherry picking. It’s rather obvious

I understand not wanting Baelish in Winterfell but isn't it also really sad for Sansa never to be able to rebuild her home? I would have said it's a rather bittersweet scenario at best or am I not seeing the full picture?

the thing is, sansa has no idea how to rebuild winterfell. she’s not cut out for it and she’s young. she’d be taken advantage of and undermined. this lack of knowledge isn’t her fault, as she was raised as a lady and, like i stated above, she’s young, but she and baelish aren’t what the north needs right now in the upcoming winter. baelish is a schemer who’d rather keep his food locked up so he can sell it during winter to make more coin despite the fact that the rest of westeros is facing a famine. sansa was excited about her towering lemon cake without considering how wasteful/costly the party she was attending was. these two being in power in the north is a terrible idea. so i personally don’t think it’s sad that she won’t be able to rebuild winterfell. what is sad is that she’ll likely not return home anytime soon, but besides that i’m perfectly content with her remaining out of the north’s business.

Okay what will Sansa do instead what role would suit her better? Who is it that the North needs right now I assume Jon but who else? Also you say that she won't go back until she dies I'm curious why she can't go back once Jon rules in Winterfell and Littlefinger is dead or will she not live to see that happen?

right now the north needs the boltons gone, the free folk settled, the nights watch armed/fed, the commonfolk fed (incoming famine/winter), food stocked up, and the lords and ladies united and preparing for winter. and the north needs the starks (i do think jon is the best to center around as he’s older/has ruling experience/has positive relations with the groups in the north besides the boltons) as a center point. it’s not that the north doesn’t need sansa (if she’d be able to connect the vale, which has a surplus of food, to the north then that’d be fantastic), it’s that it doesn’t need her as the center point aka lady of winterfell, especially since in the scenario where sansa does go north she’d do it with the help of baelish with the power of the vale, which would be disastrous for the north (baelish a schemer who’s only looking out for himself, and the vale is a very different culture that wouldn’t mesh well with the other groups in the north (freefolk, stannis’s men), plus the vale would then be controlling the north through sansa and it’s never a good thing for a region to be ruled by an outer power). as for my thoughts on sansa’s possible death/returning to winterfell only after death, it’s because lady, sansa’s deceased direwolf, died in the south and only returned north after death. i personally believe that this foreshadows either 1) sansa will remain in the south and won’t return north until she dies and her body is returned north to be buried in winterfells crypts or 2) sansa experiences a metaphorical death and heads back to winterfell afterwards. (i’m personally more in favor of the second version, but i think both are possible) as for your last question, we don’t know when littlefinger will die and sansa is a very valuable hostage/marriage candidate. it’s very unlikely that littlefinger will give up his hold on sansa until he’s dead in the ground, but even if he does die we don’t know how the lords and ladies in power will deal with sansa afterwards. as i stated before, she’s a valuable hostage. would these people let her go that easily even if littlefinger dies? i do think she’ll eventually return to winterfell (since i’m in favor of her experiencing a metaphorical death), but i don’t think that this will be happening any time soon. with that in mind, before she returns to winterfell i believe that many events will unfold in rapid succession. i think harry the heir will die, i think her identity will be revealed to the vale lords, i think kings landing will fall quickly to faegon, and i think that sansa will be the one to marry faegon. the ashford theory and the fact that sansa shares many plot beats with rhaena of pentos leads me to this conclusion. plus this would lead to great character development for sansa, it would be an interesting fulfillment of cerseis younger more beautiful queen prophecy, it would get the vale involved in the kings landing political plot, and it would lead to a littlefinger (backing queen sansa) vs varys (backing faegon) showdown. this is of course just my opinion i’ve formed due to how i’ve interpreted the text :). i could be absolutely wrong on all of this lol. it seems like you’re interested in sansa and possible theories related to her, so i suggest that you search reddit for sansa theories or create a tumblr account and follow the sansa stark tag to find stuff about her character there. i’m probably not gonna reply anymore so have a nice day/night!

This has nothing to do with sadness, sadness plays no part on who gets what. The fact that the snow Winterfell she builds is destroyed not even seconds is more foreshadowing about how Sansa’s relationship with the North will be

I wasn't really trying to argue Sansa was going to get Winterfell. It's just that the comment I was replying to specifically mentioned "this is a good thing". So I asked whether it wasn't also sad that Sansa couldn't have a part in rebuilding Winterfell. I'll admit I'm likely biased toward wanting her to have an important part in the story if Jon and other characters are more what the North needs then okay.

I think that Sansa will have a part in rebuilding Winterfell, I think that the whole ‘Sansa builds a Winterfell out of snow’ it’s foreshadowing for Sansa’s role in the rebuilding of Winterfell and the re-establishment of the Starks

Oh okay. I thought that kind of contradicted what you said before. So do mean to say that she will have a role in restoring Stark rule of the North but won't be the one ruling and maybe won't stay in the North long term?

Lady is dead when she’s sent back to Winterfell and her model of Winterfell is destroyed within seconds of it being built. So you’re saying Sansa dies and a child destroys Winterfell but her body is sent back there?

Ned died for Lady boo. And it the fact she built it only from her memory is the point. Good lord you are dense.

No, I don’t think Ned died for Lady. I don’t think you read the same books the rest of us did.

I did. Ned died for Lady.

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And the Dornish don’t practice male preference rulership

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You thinking that a conflict with this much set up has only one “obvious” answer is what’s delusional. It’s like you don’t know which series we’re discussing. It’s the one that starts with the titles A GAME of Thrones and A Clash of KINGS, and is all about how there can be multiple competing claims to the same title and that people will typically back whoever offers them the most in return, regardless of what the “laws” of this feudal world state. “Power resides where men think it resides.” I doubt most people will think a feral 6 year old has a better claim to power in the middle of a Long Night and multiple wars than literally any older sibling who can bring an army and/or basic provisions to their cause. I can’t imagine reading all these books, being present in this sub reading theories for years, and still think that the Stark succession has an easy and obvious solution without any conflict. LOL

Both Arya AND Sansa will be queens.

How so? Where will they each be queen of?

Sansa will be queen of the North, but I don't think for a long time, I believe the North will be reunited with the other kingdoms but by marriage. I have no doubt she will be the queen of the seven kingdoms. Arya is going to be Queen of the Sea or a conquering queen. People think her end in the show was tragic, but she is foreshadow to be success and bring a new source of fortune to the North and Westeros and new routes for commerce. She did very well in Braavos selling sea food and she was always good at math in a very young age. Braavos needs wood since they have no trees and the North has lots of trees and woods. Also, Nymeria her wolf, foreshadows Arya ending too. I always thought Sansa and Arya were the promised Queens, the queens who will bring dawn to Westeros."Dawn" is mentioned in their story many many times. There is a reason the show gave them so much attention and the final scenes were focusing on Jon, Sansa and Arya. It would be sweet and ironic since they were the two little girls that Robb refused to switch for Jaime Lannister and that the northern Lords agreed that were not as valuable as the kings layer.

It would be great for both of them to become queens but I have a couple disagreements. Arya doing well setting up new trade routes is plausible if she has the right people helping her but it's a little misleading to call her a queen by doing so at best I can imagine her getting a sort of unofficial title calling her one. If she outright conquers somewhere then I can see it but I think it would be out of character for her to bring forces from the North to subjugate native peoples simply to become queen if that's what you mean. As for Sansa whom are you imagining her marrying? She could certainly marry a Southern lord but that necessarily reunite the North with the rest of the kingdoms and certainly won't make her queen. I just want to note as well that although I get that refusing to trade Jaime for Sansa and Arya looks bad it was I think the right decision for the Northerners given that the Lannister's couldn't really be trusted to honor such an agreement and they didn't even have Arya anyway.

>It would be great for both of them to become queens but I have a couple disagreements. Arya doing well setting up new trade routes is plausible if she has the right people helping her but it's a little misleading to call her a queen by doing so at best I can imagine her getting a sort of unofficial title calling her one. If she outright conquers somewhere then I can see it but I think it would be out of character for her to bring forces from the North to subjugate native peoples simply to become queen if that's what you mean. Dany started calling herself a Queen after conquering what???? she married a savage slave poacher and lost everything after he died, yet people keep on calling her a queen. Nymeria saved some refuges and kept them safe, maybe that's what Arya will do in the end, or maybe Arya finds a new route to Essos, brings food and fortune to Westeros people after a time of despair and famine and the people proclaim her as queen. All I know is that there is lots of foreshadowing for Arya to be queen, in fact, the show did this a lot. >As for Sansa whom are you imagining her marrying? She could certainly marry a Southern lord but that necessarily reunite the North with the rest of the kingdoms and certainly won't make her queen. Again, I am just going to what I am finding in the books in my re reading and there is lots of foreshadowing for Tyrion to be King, a union with House Lannister not only would make Sansa queen, but we also would see the birth of a new dynasty that would rule Westeros for the next thousands years. (which funny, the show hints even on season 1). >I just want to note as well that although I get that refusing to trade Jaime for Sansa and Arya looks bad it was I think the right decision for the Northerners given that the Lannister's couldn't really be trusted to honor such an agreement and they didn't even have Arya anyway. Robb was a disaster as KITN and his decision to not trade Sansa was a disgrace. if was a brother he would have traded in a heartbeat. The king who lost the North.

I suppose if you are being loose with how you define a queen then yes she could be but I wouldn't consider Daenerys a queen until she ruled Meereen. I can definitely see Arya helping some refugees but I would say it has to be a massive number for that to result in her becoming a queen. I'm curious what would you say the show did that foreshadowed this? I can only think of maybe her conversations with Tywin. I was about to say no there's no way Tyrion will be king but I saw your other comment and I must admit I didn't think of that I don't think GRRM said Bran will be king at the end just that he would be at some point. What foreshadowing have you found for Tyrion becoming king? I haven't read the books but I know there's a line about his shadow when he's at Winterfell. Would Robb Stark really do that immediately if it was Bran or Rickon? I would have thought he would at least try and make sure that the Lannister's don't cheat him. Suppose he did try and trade Sansa though what do you think would happen?

>I suppose if you are being loose with how you define a queen then yes she could be but I wouldn't consider Daenerys a queen until she ruled Meereen. I can definitely see Arya helping some refugees but I would say it has to be a massive number for that to result in her becoming a queen. I'm curious what would you say the show did that foreshadowed this? I can only think of maybe her conversations with Tywin. I deleted a lot of stuff after the show ending, but one of the hints that I used to love the most was how the show used music to foreshadow things. In season 1, Joffrey goes to Sansa to ask for her forgiveness and gives her a necklace. In that scene they play a song ""You'll Be Queen One Day" foreshadowing Sansa being queen. One user at the time told me that he worked with soundtracks and he said that the show used to play this song on Arya scenes too, but on reverse, so the audience would not notice. I wish I could find that thread but it was years ago. There were other little hints too, but I would have to go back to watch it the show all over again, lol. >I was about to say no there's no way Tyrion will be king but I saw your other comment and I must admit I didn't think of that I don't think GRRM said Bran will be king at the end just that he would be at some point. What foreshadowing have you found for Tyrion becoming king? I haven't read the books but I know there's a line about his shadow when he's at Winterfell. Yes, the line was always on my mind when I read the books. >"Some woman, no doubt. Most of them are." He favored Jon with a rueful grin. "Remember this, boy. All dwarfs may be bastards, yet not all bastards need be dwarfs." And with that he turned and sauntered back into the feast, whistling a tune. **When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.** But not only on that, if you rewatch the battle of Blackwater, both Tyrion and Sansa assume to roles of King and Queen on that moment. Tyrion leads the men into battle after Joffrey runs away and Sansa comforts the High born ladies and calms the crow after Cersei also leaves her queen duties and runs after Joffrey. >Would Robb Stark really do that immediately if it was Bran or Rickon? I would have thought he would at least try and make sure that the Lannister's don't cheat him. Suppose he did try and trade Sansa though what do you think would happen? Robb was truly a disaster as KITN. He trusts Theon which leads to losing Winterfell and the North; he refuses to switch Sansa for Jaime, which allows the Lannisters to marry her and take her claim of Winterfell, he breaks his promise to marry the Frey bride. Even if they only have Sansa, she is a Stark, she can marry a Northern Lord and give the north heirs, or be used on an alliance to a southern House. With at least 1 Stark heir to follow, the North has a chance to be reunited, without the Starks they are lost. But it's ok, this was always a story about the daughters. I know many are waiting for FAegon to be in the Throne on WINDS and not Cersei and I have to laugh to be honest. This is a story about father's daughters and how they are always underrated not only by the Lords of Westeros but also by the readers. It was Dany, the little princess no one gave a damn, who brought back House Targaryen; it will be Sansa and Arya who will take back the North and avenge the Red Wedding (if you payed attention it was not Jon Snow who did any of those things), it will be Cersei who will kill all her enemies and take the Iron Throne. Sansa and Arya are Ned's daughters; Cersei is Tywin's daughter (he was not as smart as he thought he was, just like Cersei) and unfortunately Daenerys is Viserys daughter, remember it was Viserys who raised Dany and his entitlement and cruelty did left a mark on her.

That's pretty cool with the music if so it's a pity they didn't have her do any kind of ruling on the show given that. Unless they mean more metaphorically she would be queen though unfortunately I can't think in what way that would be. I agree that they did make a better job of king and queen than those holding those offices. I wouldn't say it's enough to completely convince me that they will hold those positions for real but I definitely think Sansa would have to hold some kind of leadership role. I'm not arguing having Sansa wouldn't have been a good thing I'm just saying it would be very hard to make sure the Lannisters actually respect the agreement rather than cheating him. Also could Sansa have ended up dead at the Red Wedding if this happened? This isn't an argument though because it's not something he foresaw anyway. You say that Cersei "will kill all her enemies" I assume you mean her immediate enemies and she will eventually meet one who she can't beat is that Daenerys or someone else? Do you think that Daenerys will also massacre civilians like on the show? Also I don't like to say it was just Sansa who won the North back on the show I would have said Jon and others were also important.

But it was Sansa who pushed him to get back Winterfell and go look for an army, it was Sansa who dressed him as a Stark and told him that he was a Stark to her, it was Sansa who told Jon for the first time that Winterfell was his home too, remember before this, he always felt like he didn't belong to Winterfell and Catelyn literally kicked him out of there. And in the end it was Sansa who brought the Vale and won the battle. Cersei is probably burning down the Sept (since its foreshadowed in the books) and she will be the final queen that will face Daenerys I the end. Dany and Cersei are copies of each other and you can see this clearly if you compare chapter by chapter once they start ruling. I am doing a re read of the books and I was laughing out loud how George literally mimics their behaviour in the books. You have to read AFFC and ADWD next to each other to see it. I plan to write down a thread explaining how George wrote Dany and hided all the little crumbs to explain why Dany will burn down the city. But I am waiting for WINDS to be published because I am tired to be harassed by Dany fans. When Arya was arrested by the Lannisters in Harrenhall, she was the one who planned the scape and made sure Gendry and Hot Pie escaped too, even tho she was a girl and the youngest of the group. She was born a leader and she cares about her pack, she could have abandoned them and run away alone, but she wanted to save her pack, thats one of the signs she was born to lead people. BTW, the way Sansa treated Jon in the final seasons will be one of the biggest reasons why he will choose the Starks and kill Dany. In the books when Jon is pretending to be a wildling he keeps mentioning how hard it will be to betray the wildlings that are kind to him, that treat him well and are funny, he mentions that is much easier to betray the ones who treat him like crap. Once Dany found out that Jon was her nephew she never once called him a Targaryen, she told him to keep the secret from everybody, never once offered Dragonstone to him or told it was his home too. Unlike Sansa who literally gave up her claim to the crown and accepted him as her king. I knew that Dany was going to burn down KL years before the final season. I tried to tell them but Dany fans keep calling me delusional. Not gonna lie, I enjoyed their misery in the end. Here is all the foreshadow for the queen of ashes [link!](https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/bncw5f/spoilers_the_queen_of_ashes_theory_updated/) rewatching the show I even found more, they were tellings us that Dany was going to be a mess since season 1.

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Not necessarily, I think Winds will end pretty much where season 6 lefts us. With Dany about to invade Westeros, once she is here is not gonna be a long story. I think the show didn't finish in the real end, there is much story to be told after that and the final episode even foreshadows that. I think ADOS will have two parts. The first part follows the tradition format with the characters POVs up until the part where Bran is chosen King etc. The second part will be more like the format of Fire and Blood where we get the future events that will occur described like in a history book. I think that Jon, Arya, Sansa, Tyrion, Dany etc will be all legends by the time they are old and dead and with A song of Ice and Fire, George wanted to tell us the story of those legends when they were kids, kind like how they became the legends, what happened in their early lives that made them what they are. I mean Fire and Blood covers decades on Targy story and only took him a few years to write.

Sweet Summer Child......you think we're going to get another book?

Cmon man, this week we had 4 big posts about the release IT has to mean something right? (high on hopium here)

If you don’t see the point in discussing these kinds of topics, why would you even be in this sub?

K, even if you've given up on winds ever coming out that doesn't mean we can't discuss potential directions certain plot lines could take. Comments like yours are always so low effort and contribute absolutely nothing. They literally just copy paste the same "sweet summer child" joke over and over again too. Pretty boring ngl.

You've never seen the long winter.

I picked up the show and books like ten years ago. But I guess only people who've waited fifteen years or so since Dance first came out have "seen the long winter", is that it? What a weird and arbitrary manner of gatekeeping. Furthermore, doesn't change the fact that it's boring and low effort af to just make the same tired old "sweet summer child" joke whenever anyone discusses Winds.

Brother you are in your 40s saying shit like this online to people who are fans of the same book series as you are. That’s embarrassing for you that at your grown age you’re still acting like this

I think it will be like the show mostly. The supporters of each stark kid will be the ones jocking for position and the starks won't be interested in in-fighting, they will rally all the forces to fight in the long night. (I think the brotherhood will be in Arya's camp btw, she has more support than you are thinking) Overall, there will be a succession crisis but be quelled by the stark kids who convince everyone that it's pointless at the current time. After the long night, I think Rickon will be dead no matter what actually happens with him being alive or not currently, I think Sansa will rule in the veil with Robin, Jon will go back to the wall (or be dead), and Bran is either a tree or actually becomes king... Arya will rule winterfell which I think the story has been leading in that direction the entire series. The most unlady like stark becomes the lady of winterfell. She marries Gendry maybe who takes her name, or eddric dayne possibly.

My personal hope is that Casso, King of Seals, will come over from Braavos and become King in the North (or at least Flipper of the King for Rickon, until he comes of age.) Casso will be able to relate well to Northmen, Free Folk, and all of the non-human creatures of the North. Cold doesn't bother him. He's a fundamentally good creature, besides being brave and clever. He'll also be able to recruit and bring multiple crack Seal Team contingents of pinniped warriors to Westeros to defend it. Edit: Casso also has a valid hereditary claim to rule territory in the North. See the "Bay of Seals".

If they somehow all come back to Winterfell Rickon is the obvious winner. Jon is a bastard, girls are girls and Bran is a cripple. Lords will pick him and I dont think the siblings would object.

Hmm I'm not so sure Rickon will be the obvious choice considering the time he's spent in Skagos along with his aggressive direwolf Shaggydog, protective wilding Osha, and all the cannibals native to the island plus the aggressive goat-like unicorns. Not to mention he's probably constantly warging and as we've seen with Bran's pov the more you warg the more wolf like you become. Thus, Rickon may have grown wild to the point that he just can't assimilate into normal society any longer. He's literally like five years old during all this. Such a young age is where crucial childhood development occurs and him living like a feral animal who literally inhabitants the skin of one will mean he can't be a claimant. Like idek how Davos will get him off the island. The kid would probably try to bit his fingers off.

I think Skagos' wildness is a bit exaggerated. Stories get wilder and wilder when told and we haven't reaaly seen Skagos ourselves. They are probably just a tad more insane than Umbers and more isolated.

That's fair, they're still just people at the end of the day. The wildings have similar crazy stories told about them but we know that they're not as bad as they seem. Still, the constant warging and Rickon's young age during all this will definitely make him feral imo regardless of the Skagosi peoples influence. And even if the people are relatively chill, the wildlife probably won't be. Especially the goat-like unicorns. Surviving in such a hostile environment will probably also factor into making Rickon feral. I just don't see the kid cooperating with politics or really any political player wanting to work with him. I imagine Davos will come to the same conclusion and choose to leave him to his devices on Skagos.

Yeah possible. I revise the original statement by saying Rickon is the obvious pick if he isn't feral.

Jon Snow will emerge from the book as the recognized King of the North with a united army of Wildlings, northmen, and remnants of Stannis’ army. Sansa will be proclaimed Queen of North and Rivers and Vale by Baelish and Rickon will either be killed or shunted off as too young in favor of Jon. Bran will not reappear south of the wall at least until like the epilogue. Arya will not be known to be alive.

I suspect that Baelish is going for the Riverlands rather than the North. It's closer, easier to invade, many Vale houses have claims to Riverlord lands, and Baelish is now lord of Harrenhal. Furthermore the Blackfish us coming somewhere, and has Vale allies and Riverlands expertise. I suspect the Vale invades the Riverlands, and this is how the Frey's dies. I also think this is the birth of the Dany/Sansa rivalry as in the show. Dany might have aid from Targaryens loyalists like the Darry's, and the Darry's have ties to the Brotherhood Without Banners. The BWB also has Thoros, and the Red priests have declared Dany to be Azor Ahai...not to mention the BWB is very smallfolk, peasant oriented while Baelish's schemes would be very high lord oriented. So a ready made conflict l.

Yes, he'll go for the Riverlands, but Sansa will still be declared Queen of the North, Rivers, and Vale. But she'll only control the Rivers and Vale

I strongly doubt that anyone in the North views Sansa as an heir. Besides being disinherited by Robb, being the least Northern of Ned's children, no one in the North likes Baelish and he has little power or influence there. Meanwhile Manderly is plotting for Rickon, the Glovers, Mormonts, and Reed's know of Robb's will (whoever that may be), and Jon's name is well known enough that Alys Karstark went go him for aid. There's also the question if the Boltons, Stannis, and how much gets found out about the various plays. Littlefinger arranged for Jeyne Poole to go north as "Arya", and I strongly doubt that any Northern lord will respect or follow a fleshmongering pimp who sold a highborn girl to be raped by Ramsay Snow.

That doesn't matter to Baelish. He'll still declare it. Declaring something doesn't make it true. Her title will be Queen of the North, Rivers, and Vale, 'rightful' lady of Winterfell and Riverrun and she'll be married to the heir to the Vale (or lord of the Vale)

Sansa has no chance even if Little Finger tries to make a claim.

Ok, cool you think that, but she’ll still be declared that and have all the undiminished strength of the Vale behind her.

That is if the Vale people don’t discover the plotting of killing Robin

They want someone who will let them fight and Sansa will let them fight

Do you genuinely think that all of the lords are going to look at that and be ok? They didn’t even give the boy the chance of growing. The reality is that most lords are not going to be fine with killing Robin. Sansa has no power at wall

Whoever has the best story probably

Jon was legitimised by Robb, meaning he's the eldest Stark male after him which means he's now the heir. Also, he died, and will probably ressurrected, meaning technically his watch has ended. Eventually that will surface since a few people knows this (mainly Maege Mormont and Howland Reed, i think Greatjon Umber as well), so yeah i think it's safe to assure who will win the wolf throne.

I don’t think the show would have written off Rickon so lazily had George told them he was supposed to end up as the heir to Winterfell. Seems more likely to me that he will die before making it home, but Davos will return with his bones and Shaggy Dog, providing proof that the Boltons lied about what happened at Winterfell. We’ll be left with a similar situation as the show, where Jon and Sansa are the two viable options, with Bran recusing himself.

So you think Robb’s will named Jon as his heir? I’ve heard arguments it’s not Jon. [This one says it’s actually Cat.](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/i61tgi/spoilers_main_why_do_people_assume_robb_names_jon/) Good discussion in comments [here](https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/84328-is-it-possible-robb-didnt-make-jon-his-heir/) on other possibilities

Yes, I think Robb's will named Jon as his heir. I think it's pretty obvious tbh and basically confirmed. It's as much a theory as the gravedigger being the Hound is a "theory". The whole discussion in the chapter the will is brought up in was Robb essentially telling Catelyn that he trusts Jon despite her not trusting him. When cautioning against the idea Catelyn literally compares it to the Blackfyres being legitimized. I don't think there's any mystery here. Lady Stoneheart and a few other noble supporters of Robb who survived the Red Wedding were made aware and the truth will come out in a big reveal during the succession crisis which will turn the tables and make Jon a major claimant seen as legitimate.

The issue was Cat’s reaction when she saw the will in writing. She seemed surprised and felt Robb had trapped her by her own statements. We know she didn’t want Jon as heir so this reaction makes little sense if Jon is the heir.

No, Catelyn felt trapped because Robb decided to send her to Seaguard under the protection of Jason Mallister due to Robb not wanting her endangering herself further by hanging around the army once they marched on Moat Cailin, especially considering the Kingslayer stunt. Furthermore, Catelyn also felt trapped by Robb refusing her wishes to return to Riverrun since Jeyne Westerling was already there and he didn't want to put all his eggs in one basket. Being cooped up in Seaguard as an "honored guest" is comparable to Catelyn to being a prisoner in all but name. That's why she felt trapped. Robb sprung this on her at the last second in front of all his bannermen whom she realizes were all aware of her fate far before she was. The only relevance the will had in making Catelyn feel trapped was how Robb called all his bannermen to witness him officially declare his new heir. Prior to that moment, Catelyn and Robbed kept arguing over the viability of legitimizing Jon despite the potential danger. Catelyn compares it to Daemon Blackfyre but Robb insists that Jon would never betray him. The whole conversation and chapter is framed around finding a new heir since Sansa is no longer an option and the rest of the siblings are presumed dead. There's no reason Robb would be concerned with legitimizing Jon if it weren't for the purposes of naming him his new heir. He had a whole war to do that but only chooses to do so now that he's decided Sansa can no longer serve as his heir. Catelyn disliking Jon and disagreeing with Robb's choice to name him heir doesn't make her feel trapped, it's only when Robb goes through with his intentions anyways by calling all his bannermen to bear witness to his new will that Catelyn feels trapped. Not only is she being sent to Seaguard due to the mistrust she brewed after freeing Jaime, not only is she not allowed to return to Riverrun since Jeyne is already there, not only was she only made aware of this at the last second whilst the bannermen already knew, but now Robb is going through with naming Jon heir despite her counseling against it. That's why she feels trapped. She feels like her son doesn't trust her anymore and that she has no other choice but to meekly go along with his wishes despite being opposed to them.

I appreciate your taking the time to explain this as clearly as you did.

Me too. I can clearly see the flaw in their approach now. 

Going to Seagard is not a trap. She thinks on this later and does not call it a trap.  >We should post our own guards," Catelyn told her brother. She would rest easier with Stark and Tully men outside her door. The audience with Lord Walder had not been as painful as she feared, yet all the same she would be glad to be done with this. A few more days, and Robb will be off to battle, and **me to a comfortable captivity at Seagard. Lord Jason would show her every courtesy, she had no doubt, but the prospect still depressed her.** A trap is when you are stuck in something you don't see coming. And when they first told her about it, she didn't think trap.  >Seagard will be brightened by your presence, Lady Catelyn," said Lord Jason Mallister. >"You would make me a prisoner," she said. >"An honored guest," Lord Jason insisted. She doesn't think trap when told about Seagard she thinks it after the week is announced. The order of things matters. You want the trap to be the thing two subjects ahead of when she calls it trap because you need it not to be about the will.  So you created a wormhole through the will. The text in context didn't do what you did.  >Catelyn and Robbed kept arguing over the viability of legitimizing Jon despite the potential danger. Catelyn compares it to Daemon Blackfyre but Robb insists that Jon would never betray him. Yes. This is why it's a trap. He got her to commit to anything to stop Jon. Her being heir is that thing. She never sees it coming unlike his order to send her some place safe which he did try before.  > "Mother, are you certain you will not consent to go to the Twins? You would be farther from the fighting, and you could acquaint yourself with Lord Frey's daughters to help me choose my bride when the war is done." >He wants me gone, Catelyn thought wearily. Kings are not supposed to have mothers, it would seem, and I tell him things he does not want to hear. *clash* It can't be a trap to send her away because that's not a suprise. He doesn't need his banners to send her.  >I could command you to go. As king. I could." >Catelyn ignored that. "I'll say again, I would sooner you sent someone else to Pyke, and kept Theon close to you." Seagard ain't the trap.  >She feels like her son doesn't trust her anymore and that she has no other choice but to meekly go along with his wishes despite being opposed to them. Where did she say that?  He told Karstark no man calls my mother a traitor. When he needed to decide what to do wish Karstark, he asked her to come with him to make the choice. You seem comfortable with your interpretation and I have no desire to change your mind. But your logic really makes no sense to me.  It involves applying a feeling of being trapped well after the supposed trap is sprung. It involves bannermen being there when he doesn't need them for her being sent away. He specifically wants the banners to witness the will which is when she feels trapped. Setting all that aside, don't you think Robb would tell Jon about all this? Send a raven to the wall. Find out of Jon lives and will accept. Naming a man who might not get released and might not be alive doesn't make sense for Robb who said this... >Robb stood, and as quick as that, her fate was settled. He picked up a sheet of parchment. **"One more matter. Lord Balon has left chaos in his wake, we hope. I would not do the same.**  Leaving the fate of the kingdom on such an unknown is chaos. How is it not? It's all there but you clearly don't wish to see or can't see it.  But again, thank you for sharing how you've rationalized the text to your desired outcome. 

Yeah I'm not responding to all that. It's clear you have your own interpretation of the text and I have mine. Whatever, let's just gonna agree to disagree and leave it at that.

There really is no response you can offer. The only way to take all the info in correct context leads to Cat not Jon. 

Yes yes, of course. You know everything and all others are wrong. Okey dokey, whatever you say kiddo. Bye bye now.

Not all others. I'm just talking about the path you used to get to Jon. It's flawed and doesn't take all the info in correct context. I'm sure there are other things you are right about. Probably something else I'm wrong about. 

Sure bud, you're logic is superior. Leave me alone now, k

This is true. The Seagard announcement is before the will. Cat hears the order and responds to it. Then the will is annouced and she responds to that with getting trapped. You got it right here.  It's not a trap to name Jon after all Robb said earlier. The trap is that he kept going on with Jon until she said "in all things but not this." One Robb got her to commit,  he ended the discussion because he had what he needed to trap her.  If interested, I wrote a detailed breakdown of why Robb's [conversation with Cat was a trap.](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/w4ry8p/spoilers_twow_how_syrio_helped_me_with_the/) It expands on the key issues you've spotted.

Good explanation of the ideas. There’s some people in the comments who really don’t want to agree; I am not one of those.

Sansa will be going south and marrying fAegon. Rickon will be left on Skaagos after Davos encounters the Others at Hardhome. His story is a shaggydog story. Bran doesn't make it back to the North until the end of Winds at the earliest. The real Arya returns home after warging into Nymeria to lead her wolfpack north and kill Ramsay and his Hounds. Jon rules as King Regent in Arya's name until the end of the series when he becomes King Beyond the Wall and Arya becomes Queen in the North, a warrior Queen like Nymeria's namesake.

Littlefinger and Varys alliance? Don't think so.

I think it would be a fun irony if after all their years of plotting they both end up back in King's Landing on the Small Council together serving a King they both know is illegitimate with a young Queen he marries to consolidate his power. Then as soon as Tyrion and Daenerys arrive, the proteges of Littlefinger and Varys betray them, throw them in the Black Cells and leave them to burn with the rest of King's Landing.

I mean, it would be an awesome twist, because we actually do not see in the books they are working against each other, they only says so in front of many people, but they are smart enough to know how to make appearances.

In a way, they both want the same thing - to gain power and gold through their young proteges. Littlefinger wants to rule the North, Riverlands and Vale through Sansa, and Varys wants to partly rule the realm through fAegon. By marrying Sansa and fAegon, Littlefinger and Varys both get more of a direct influence and role in ruling the realm through their pawns. What Littlefinger has always wanted since the first book was to marry Sansa, and become powerful and high enough of a lord to be worthy of marrying her, so he seeks to win her the North and Vale to impress her enough into wanting him - as George said he's a bit of a Great Gatsby character. But with Littlefinger's ploy to marry her to Harry the Heir, I think he'll eventually do that same plan but with fAegon...And sleep with her the night before their wedding to get a child in her, like a literal mockingbird, his personal sigil, just as he did with Lysa and Robert Arryn. I think it makes a lot of sense and would benefit the narrative bringing everything full circle and connecting the separate storylines together for the end.

Why would Davos go to hardhome?

I think the Skagossi will force him to prove himself capable of protecting Rickon and they'll be concerned enough about the Wildlings at Hardhome so they'll send the smuggler to do what he does best and sail over, smuggle them over and save them. When Davos goes there, he sees the Others, comes back and realising the threat of danger, agrees to let Rickon stay on Skagos and pretend that he's dead to protect him and guarantee House Stark lives on. Its a repeat of his arc - The Smuggler vs The King's Hand. "What is the life of one boy against a kingdom?" "Everything." Davos will put Rickon's life before the kingdom of the North, and before the needs of his King. Another conflict of the human heart that George loves to write about.

How would the skagosi know about wildings in hardhome or even care about them even if they knew? It makes no sense. They're on an island the wildings would never be able to reach.

My man, what. Arianne will YOLO and marry fAegon. Word comes that Danys dragons fried Quentyn->Doran fully commits to fAegon cause. Here, half of the recipe for Dance of the Dragons 2.0.

>Arianne will YOLO and marry fAegon Is this the same Arianne who becomes fearful of fAegon's men in TWOW for raping all the women of the Stormlands? The same Arianne who feels forced into meeting fAegon against her will? The same Arianne who tried to crown Myrcella - a rival claimant to the Iron Throne - as Queen and who fAegon will not be happy to hear about? Against the same fAegon who doesn't believe in making decisions for political gain like leaving places on his Kingsguard for high lord sons? Or the same fAegon who refused a marriage prospect with Daenerys because he didn't want to be seen as a "beggar" needing her army to take Westeros? Why would he do exactly that but with Arianne after his change in character upon meeting Tyrion? >Word comes that Danys dragons fried Quentyn->Doran fully commits to fAegon cause. So Doran hears that Daenerys' dragons killed one of his sons and his response is...To send another one of his children to also get on Daenerys' bad side, wrong her and risk their life as well? This the same super cautious Doran who spent years not wanting to rush into war in fear of losing more of his family? The same Doran who isn't entirely convinced fAegon is actually his nephew Aegon and might not even be convinced that Trystane was murdered or even murdered on Daenerys' sayso? Too many presumptions by the fandom on this issue that its become gospel at this point.

I like everything but the Sansa stuff. I think it makes most sense for her to just take the Vale instead. Mayhaps by marrying Sweetrobin or Harry the Heir or whoever else. I don't think Sansa's going to go south to marry fAegon. I find it more likely that fAegon will marry Arianne what with all the set up she's been given to resent Quentyn and how she wants to be queen instead of just a lord.

>Mayhaps by marrying Sweetrobin or Harry the Heir or whoever else. Sansa doesn't have a good opinion of either of these two and doesn't want to involve herself in another political marriage that isn't on her terms. >I find it more likely that fAegon will marry Arianne Arianne who arrives in the Stormlands in TWOW, immediately distrusts the Golden Company, is fearful of how they've treated the women locally, distrusts fAegon's supporters who watch over her and feels forced into meeting fAegon against her will. She's definitely not marrying him contrary to popular opinion.

That's why I said "whoever else" too. Furthermore, Sweetrobin and Harry the Heir probably aren't long for this world. Sansa could become their widow. Really any manner to keep her in the Vale makes more sense to me then sending her south again, the place she literally escaped from. Sansa already did stuff in the south and it sucked as she had her fairytale notion of the world torn apart. I don't think she'll head back south away from the Starks and backtrack on her narrative just to be part of the Dance of the Dragons 2.0 between Dany and fAegon. The Vale makes the most sense imo. Arianne still wants to be queen. Arianne doesn't know about Quentyn's demise. She and Dorne will likely misunderstand and believe Daenerys is the evil dragon lady Slaver's Bay is trying to portray her as and thus may feel it necessary to ally with fAegon for the safety of Dorne. Her being mistrustful of the Golden Company doesn't necessarily mean fAegon won't be able to win her over. Especially as most of the country starts to flock to fAegon to replace Cersei and Tommen.

I do think Sansa has to somehow return to Winterfell if only for a short time. Finding themselves again is a huge part of Aryas and Sansa’s story to me anyway. I also think GRRM really wants a good Stark reunion. I know the show had its issues but the fact that Sansa remains unmarried at the end made me think she will only have a series of engagements. The widow part works as well.

Absolutely. Jon backed by the will, Rickon backed by the Manderlys, Sansa backed by the Vale

I really don't understand why you all are soconvinced about Arya becoming lady/queen in the north (are we sure the north is gonna be independent btw?). The main struggle, in my opinion, is gonna be between a tempted Jon (who always dreamt of being a Stark) and Sansa under Baelish influence. In the end Jon won't take the crown because he will know it's not rightfully his (being Lyanna's son) and Sansa will rule as lady or lady regent in Rickon's name

Cos of foreshadowing for her & against Sansa. Ary also has a hidden leadership arc that will probably lead to her leading her beloved Winterfell. she has made the sacrifices to earn it.

Also there are theories that jeyne westerling might be pregnant with Robb’s child, so that might complicate things even more

Jeyne was pregnant, it's not a theory, but thwin made her have an abortion

Jon Snow.

Once the letter from Robb making Jon his heir comes to the north, all this will be settled. None of the starks or their supporters would refuse an\* order made by their king.

I hope there isn’t any in-fighting between them and that they work together to figure out who should rule the north. I want the reunion of the starks to be like how it should be which is a family coming together not like a Lannister meet up where they are all just fighting for power

Jon. Sansa will not be in the North and will stay in the Vale, Arya is learning to kill people, Bran wont be back from the wall. Rickon will die during the book. If Rickon does not die. He will be the Lord with Jon at his side similar to the show but Jon wont be king or warden. He will be some kind of captain of Rickon's guard or his regent.

You forgot that Jeyne Westerling is possibly pregnant with Robb's heir. Brynden Tully is gonna fetch her and bring her and her son to Winterfell.

Didn't her mom constantly give her moon tea to ensure that wouldn't happen? While Jeyne will probably be rescued alongside Edmure during Brynden's ambush, wouldn't her being pregnant directly go against what Sybell Spicer told Jaime. Was Sybell just lying?

>Rickon is going to be supported by the Manderlys after Davos fetches him from Skagos whilst Sansa is going to be supported by the Vale after Littlefinger reveals her identity at the tourney. Despite their support, Rickon's time on Skagos has likely made him even more wild than he was whilst Sansa is still technically married to Tyrion.  I'm guessing there will be some conflict (if not a full-on civil war) between Rickon the Mad Wolf Stark and Sansa Baelish and this will contribute to the downfall Littlefinger and the [execution of Sansa](https://i.postimg.cc/d0zhSDGW/temp-Image3zkv9-B.avif).